Donna Bardell's Journey from Trauma to Triumph

Can confronting your darkest memories open the door to healing? I sit down with my dear friend Donna Bardell to explore her remarkable journey of resilience and recovery.  Donna faced a childhood marred by dysfunction, substance abuse, and trauma. Despite these adversities, she achieved significant milestones such as graduating from Cornell University and successfully raising her children as a single parent. Her story is a powerful testament to the strength required to overcome familial challenges and build a thriving life.

Listen as Donna courageously discusses her path to confronting and validating painful memories, starting with a pivotal moment during her high school years that unearthed buried trauma. Through candid conversations with her family and professional therapy, Donna emphasizes the crucial role of validation and the importance of understanding one's experiences. We delve into Rapid Resolution Therapy (RRT) and other therapeutic modalities that have been instrumental in her healing journey, offering practical advice for those grappling with similar traumas.

Donna also opens up about her emotional reconciliation with her father, sharing a deeply personal narrative of confrontation, estrangement, and eventual dialogue that led to healing. Her fictional book "Hope Island" serves as another outlet for her experiences, telling the story of a young girl overcoming sexual abuse through magical adventures. This episode underscores the significance of joy and play in the healing process and stresses the importance of maintaining health and well-being post-retirement.

Donna's Information:
Rapid Resolution Therapy®
English Version Paperback: Hope Island: An Adventure of Self-Discovery and Personal Growth (Sophia's Sacred Journey): Bardell, Donna: 9781641841757: Amazon.com: Books
English Version Kindle: Amazon.com: Hope Island: An Adventure of Self-Discovery and Personal Growth (Sophia's Sacred Journey Book 1) eBook : Bardell, Donna: Books
Spanish Version Paperback: Isla de Esperanza: Una aventura de autodescubrimiento y crecimiento personal (Sophia's Sacred Journey) (Spanish Edition): Bardell, Donna: 9781641841771: Amazon.com: Books
Spanish Version Kindle too.

   **The information provided on this podcast does not, and is not intended to, constitute  legal advice;  instead, all in

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

So are you looking for more inspiration and possibility in midlife and beyond? Join me, leslie Maloney, proud wife, mom, author, teacher and podcast host, as I talk with people finding meaning in moxie in their life after 50. Interviews that will energize you and give you some ideas to implement in your own life. I so appreciate you being here Now. Let's get started. All right, everybody, welcome back to another episode of Meeting a Moxie After 50. And I have a dear friend with me here today Donna Bardell has joined us.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Welcome, donna, thank you Nice to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:45

Donna and I hang out a lot together. So this is kind of this is really fun for me and a little weird, because I'm just kind of like, yeah, normally we're face to face and so for recording purposes, of course we're, we're over Zoom. So, yeah, I'm just I've been really looking forward to our chat here. You know I, we spend so much time together. But then I was thinking I really don't know about your, like where you were born, and I know a little bit about your, your brothers and sisters. I know you come from a large family, but give us a little background there, Sure, sure.

Speaker 2: 1:24

I was born in Rochester, new York. I now live in Melbourne, florida, but I spent my entire childhood in Rochester in the middle of five children in the snow belt there, always prayed for snow days for school to get out. And then I went to college at Cornell University, which is a New York State university, and worked in New York City for my first job for a couple of years and then moved down to Florida with that company and ended up pretty much staying here for the balance of my career Other than two years. I moved to Olympia, washington, for a couple of years. My upbringing, you know, in a lot of ways it was really glorious. We had a great neighborhood of kids where we could all run around and my mom had a bell she would ring in the backyard and we knew when it was time to come home and stop playing hide and seek and whatever we were playing to come home and stop playing hide and seek and whatever we were playing.

Speaker 2: 2:27

You know it was great. But you know I also grew up in a very dysfunctional home. Both my parents were alcoholics and, you know, thank goodness when they each passed away they had both had over like 30 years sobriety so they both had found aa at different times. But the but the trauma that my siblings and I all experienced in the household, as you know, it imprints, you know, and it's there in the cells of your body. So I feel like I've spent my entire adult life in recovery, healing the trauma from sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse that went on in the home and thinking I was the only one.

Speaker 2: 3:11

I didn't even realize that my siblings had gone through some similar experiences that I had until we were adults.

Speaker 2: 3:20

So it was one of those situations where people just don't talk about that stuff, right? So I thought I was alone. I didn't realize how many people who grew up in alcoholic homes actually grow up with some form of molestation or sexual abuse. Okay, and so it was in my adult years, as I got much older, really, I mean probably you know more. Like in my 50 years, as I got much older, really, I mean probably you know more like in my fifties, when I really started talking to people about what my early childhood experiences were like, and then I realized, wow, like I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Speaker 2: 3:58

This is not uncommon and you know something to celebrate having come through that. Growing up in such a dysfunctional home and being able to pull myself through college, graduate from an Ivy League school, you know, get a good corporate job, raise two children, a single parent for much of the time I raised my kids and for them to be able to go to school and graduate and have their own careers it's like, okay, there's, there's some stuff to feel good about that came out of all of this so, okay, there's a lot to unpack in there and what you share with us in your story and your and I love your authenticity and your vulnerability here because you're.

Speaker 1: 4:44

A lot of people have had similar experiences growing up, growing up in a dysfunctional home, and that can look a lot of different ways, and I don't think it's unusual to have alcoholism be somewhere I really believe it's somewhere in just about every family and then, like you said, it goes hand in hand sometimes with sexual abuse as well. So were you the oldest girl or were you the? Where did you? Were you the oldest child or how did you fit in with the five?

Speaker 2: 5:14

I was the eldest daughter in the surrogate mom. Really, I had two older brothers and then me, so I was responsible for the younger two. I was responsible for, you know, cooking dinner. My mom would leave a recipe for me. So I was responsible for the younger two. I was responsible for, you know, cooking dinner. My mom would leave a recipe for me. I'd come home from school and watch my brother and my sister and make dinner for the night and did laundry, you know, for six and seven people, and you know it was hard. I really filled in a lot of roles. She was a working single mom when she and my dad divorced, and so you know I had a lot of responsibility. She was a working single mom when she and my dad divorced, and so you know I had, I had a lot of responsibility, which really made me like this super responsible person.

Speaker 1: 5:52

Yeah, well, when I think of you, you are such a bright light, and and when I think of you, though, I think of somebody who's very responsible, who's very independent, and so that all kind of fits together. And also, the era was a time of a lot of us were going home to empty homes, or mom was working or whatever, and so there was an expectation for start dinner and things like that, which I don't know if we, some homes probably still have that going on today, but we think of we think of children a little bit differently Now.

Speaker 1: 6:31

Kids are a little bit more protected in different ways and some of that's good and some of those maybe not so good, but definitely I can see where that comes together for you. So you were sort of the one and I'll bet in your relationships with your siblings is that still some of those roles still in play when you guys get together.

Speaker 2: 6:51

Well, several of us have like this super responsibility kind of disorder. I'm not the only one that ended up with it. I had certain responsibilities. A lot of them were the domestic chores because my mom was working full time.

Speaker 2: 7:05

My eldest brother I really have come to appreciate all that he carried on his shoulders as the eldest one. I mean to give you an example of how dysfunctional things were. I think he was 15 when my parents told him that we were gonna get a divorce. They were getting a divorce and it was up to him to tell us and it was now his responsibility to keep the family together. Wow, and so he here. He tells you know his four other siblings and and then that just really supercharged him to have to be responsible and look out for everyone and feel like his job to keep us all together. So you know, nobody got out of that scot-free, that's for sure. But it also, you know, those kind of skills you develop in those dysfunctional scenarios. If you're lucky, they can become strengths in the workplace and the key is to know when to stop, how to balance that you know, and to recognize your dysfunction is playing a major role, you know, because it can be harmful.

Speaker 2: 8:18

And then that's something you know when I look back I've been retired for a couple of years now, but I look back on my career and I really wish I knew how to relax more at work. You know, I used to teach how to decompress and how to self-regulate and manage stress. I used to do a lunchtime stress busters podcast meditation for thousands of employees across the company.

Speaker 2: 8:45

Right but I did not know how to not take my work so seriously, take it so personally in my performance, and so I wish I had learned how to do that balance better.

Speaker 1: 8:59

Right.

Speaker 1: 9:00

Well, your nervous system, and I think this happens so often when we experience trauma, especially as children. Our nervous system is on high alert, and you mentioned that with your brother and, and so, and we're trying to make our space safe. And how do we do that? Well, in some cases it's, you know, creating more order. It's taking on more responsibility. Well, in some cases it's creating more order, it's taking on more responsibility, whatever it is that will create that, that safe space for us and which then releases your nervous system. But it takes some work and it takes some looking at it and it takes some talking about it, right? Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 9:53

Yeah, so your parents split up. And what was?

Speaker 2: 10:04

that like initially. Well, it was like a slow burn for us because you know it was in the generation where it was viewed shameful to be divorced. And I was raised Catholic and so we were excommunicated from the church and felt shame from that and so what they did and I didn't realize this was what they were doing at the time. But as I got older I realized what they did.

Speaker 2: 10:26

My dad ended up getting a job in Albany, new York, and we lived in Rochester, so you're talking several hours away. So at first he would come home every weekend, then it's like every other weekend, then it was once a month, then it's once every few months. Dad would come visit. So they slowly did this separation where we got acclimated to dad's not around and mom's pretty much running the show, and so then you know when my dad would come and visit he, he would take me out to lunch or dinner and we'd have time like that and and then that would be it, and so eventually then they got divorced. So they did a few years like that. So once they were we're already living this way it really it didn't really seem much different women separating and divorcing from their spouse.

Speaker 1: 11:15

That's a pretty big deal, so I mean kudos to her in some respects for that move.

Speaker 2: 11:34

Definitely. I mean, and she was a social worker. Her job was to help ex-convicts get a job so they could actually get released into society, and so she was not making much money and here she had five kids to raise and mouths to feed and I mean it was a lot. I have so much respect for what she did. Even though I have so much wounding around her alcoholism and what went on with that. I still have so much respect for her. And again, she was in recovery for a lot of years. She I mean she spent 32, 34 years sober before she passed away. So there was a lot of good conversations she was able to have with us where we could learn from her and her experiences, and I think all those years of sobriety that she had really helped to balance a lot of the dysfunction and the memories that I have of some very traumatic things that went on with her.

Speaker 1: 12:34

Yeah, that was going to be my next question. And were you able to unwind some of that with her while she was still alive? It sounds like you were, and she was aware of the work that you were doing and your brothers and sisters were doing in. She was aware of the work that you were doing and your brothers and sisters were doing in terms of some of the stuff that went on when you were young.

Speaker 2: 12:51

She. I don't know how much she was aware of what on with my siblings when I mean she was aware of no beatings we got from our dad and that kind of thing. When I was I was a senior in high school she had a boyfriend and she had him move in with us and I could hear them having sex in the room next door and it freaked me out and I went and I lived with a friend of mine and her mom and lived there for a couple of months and then was having conversations with my mom. I explained to her why. I said I'm really uncomfortable with this. I didn't know at the time when I said I got to get out of here why I was so uncomfortable.

Speaker 2: 13:35

But then I went and I talked to her because I missed her and I told her of some memories that I was having. I said I'm not sure if this is a dream or a memory. It feels like a memory, but it's something that's coming forward all of a sudden with this whole thing I was dealing with with her and her boyfriend and I asked her did dad used to come in my bedroom at night? And she's like yeah. And I and I asked her did? He used to touch me, cause I have memories of being molested by dad and were you aware of that? And she said I had a feeling something might have been going on.

Speaker 2: 14:11

Um, I was aware he was going in there. So, you know, this kind of not the answer you want and it is the answer you want. It's validating, like, okay, I didn't make this up in my head. Um, something did happen. And then, you know, more memories come forward over the years. You know, there there's things that I remember that happened with him. So it was validating on one hand, and on the other hand, it's like but your job was to protect me, right? So how did you let this happen, you know? But again, they were both drunk, I'm sure. When my dad did the things to me he did, he was inebriated.

Speaker 1: 14:48

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:51

I mean, I know I can remember times him doing things to me and smelling alcohol in his breath, so I'm sure he was inebriated and she was probably drunk too, and so she wasn't really right cautious of what was going um you know, rationalizing some things away and that sort of thing, and yeah, that's what happens.

Speaker 1: 15:07

That's what happens a lot of times. When alcohol and drugs get in there, people, their judgment gets all screwed up. What do you think it was about your senior year? Was there something that you had Because that was a huge step for you to have that conversation with your mom, my goodness and was there something that shifted for you your senior year? Was it something shifted for her? Why do you think that happened then?

Speaker 2: 15:35

I think it was just it was. You know, you're coming to terms with your own sexuality and hearing my mom having sex was just really triggering for me and I think that's what just kind of brought some of those memories forward. And at the same time I was also dealing with, like my, my dad, um, when he would come visit and um, you know how he would greet me and kiss me was really inappropriate.

Speaker 2: 16:05

And um I mean my last memory of that is like being 16 years old, so I was aware then he did some weird things, but the other, more sexual things, I did not remember until I was was in my senior year?

Speaker 1: 16:18

Yeah, yeah, he was, um, did he so? After you had this conversation with your mom? And then I'm sure that, like you said, that opened up a whole bunch of other things to take a look at and I'm sure that was a journey. What do you, before I, before we go any further, what do you say to somebody that's maybe going through something like that right now, who's having some memories come up, you know, maybe having some conversations? What would you say to them about your journey?

Speaker 2: 16:51

Well, I think it's very helpful to talk to someone who's trained in working with people who've had this kind of trauma, because, one, the validation is really important, because it doesn't matter if you have a specific memory or it's just a general feeling, because the you know, the mind blocks out the stuff that's just too much for us to handle and we're all different with that um. There are people I know that when um that have been sexually abused by their dead and how they know is when he would put their hand his hand on their knee or hand on the shoulder, any touch, they jump.

Speaker 2: 17:29

Well, that's just not natural, right? So they don't have the recollection of specifically what had been done, but they knew something was not right with that happening. So I think talking to someone that's trained uh, like you know therapists who and especially somebody who specializes in sexual trauma that can help you with that, is really important. The other thing I would say is there's so much shame that goes along with sexual abuse. It's like you feel as if you were responsible in some way For me. I felt dirty. You know how's anybody ever going to love me?

Speaker 2: 18:16

You know those kinds of thoughts and feelings, and so it's really important to know that it's not your fault and you are not your body, you are not the things that have happened to you, you're not your experience, that's not you, those things. Nothing can ever touch the true essence of who you are, that spark of life or love, whatever your spiritual beliefs are. I mean, I believe we have a soul. I believe there is the spark of creation in each person and nothing can ever alter that, no matter how ugly things things get, no matter how many mistakes you make, no matter what horrible things you do or horrible things that have been done to you.

Speaker 2: 18:55

That's untouchable yeah, that's the truth of who you really are and so I think, holding on to that and knowing that, and these are just experiences and it's history or her story. You know it's his story or her story. It's a story because it's not happening right now. The only thing that's real is what's happening in this very moment and you know what we're feeling.

Speaker 1: 19:34

Yeah, and I think that's, if you can really know that and feel that, then right, it's just a story, it's something I need to process because it's going to make me even deeper and richer understanding that experience. But separating it out, I think, is super powerful.

Speaker 2: 19:57

Yeah, I mean the mind. The mind is powerful, right? Those, those beliefs we have drive those thoughts and they create our feelings, which create our actions and our experiences, and and we can shift those and shift our experience. But there's still like an imprint that happens from the trauma and that's where learning ways to release that trauma and that imprinting is is just really important and there's so many different modalities for releasing energy that's blocked in the body and releasing old thoughts. But you know that's an important journey for us all to be on.

Speaker 1: 20:25

What would you say? What would be just and I know there's a whole lot of them, but for you, what were some of those modalities that really helped you release some of that trauma?

Speaker 2: 20:35

well, I'm going to start with the latest and then I'll go back um, because the thing that's had the most effect and immediate, like that, without re-traumatizing is something called rapid resolution therapy and it it's a form of I'll call it hypnotherapy where you don't need to tell the whole story, you just give an indication of what it is that you're dealing with and through the use of symbols and imagery that speaks to the subconscious mind.

Speaker 2: 21:08

Where the subconscious mind gets it to, that is not happening now and it can release it, then you're able to let it go. And so that's something that I did a few years ago and it was like immediate. It was an immediate like feeling of empowerment. I just and feeling light and like things whatever I was still holding on to just wasn't there anymore. Now I'm just Donna, it's just I'm here.

Speaker 2: 21:35

When I was very young, when I, when I was first engaged to be married, I had issues, sexual issues with my fiance and he's like you need to get some help, you know. And so, which you know was shaming, he didn't realize it was shaming for me and he was right. I did need to get help because I didn't know what was going on for me very slow, slow progression. So I don't think you have to take so long to release the, that energy and um and and shift at the subconscious level. You know where that that trauma is still being held on to. I've done um, different uh, breath work, sound healing, you know I've tried all kinds of stuff. The rapid resolution therapy was was something that was pretty powerful.

Speaker 1: 22:38

And we will put that in the show notes for those, especially for those people who are not familiar with that and maybe want to check it out. We'll definitely have a link. Rrt, right, rrt, rrt, yep.

Speaker 2: 22:50

Yep and they have on the website. They have a network of people all over the country and all over the world who do it, and it works. Through doing it virtually too, like through a Zoom, it can be done. It doesn't even need to be in person, and there's some really, really good therapists and coaches that know how to use that technique.

Speaker 1: 23:11

Yeah, yeah, Were you able to before your dad passed? Were you able to have any resolution there in terms of the conversation? So we?

Speaker 2: 23:21

the answer is yes, absolutely. And we did a few times throughout my adult years. The first time, I'll say let me go way back, all right. So when I was getting married in my mid twenties, um, I did not invite my dad to my wedding and he was hurt by that, but I just felt like I, I did not feel comfortable with him being there. And then, over the years, we developed a relationship and a good relationship.

Speaker 2: 23:58

But then, when I was having my first child, I felt like how do I ever feel safe, have my child feel safe with my father, if I don't know he's addressed what caused him to do what he did to me? And so I called him to talk to him about it and I said I want to know that that you've addressed what caused those things to happen with me. He got very upset with me and he had been remarried. Uh, I said what are you trying to ruin my marriage? No, I'm just, I want you to have a relationship with my child and I. I can't do that unless I know you've addressed those issues. And so he said don't ever call me. So he, he, he shut me out of his life and so I was drinking at that point?

Speaker 1: 24:51

or did he get sober as well at that point?

Speaker 2: 24:54

he was, he was sober okay at that point he was silver.

Speaker 2: 25:01

And then, about a year later, father's day was coming up and I just felt like you know what? I only have one father and I all aspects of him may not be something I would have placed an order for, but this is who I have and he's never done anything to me since I was in high school. You know, it started when I was two. My earliest recollection is from two, so from two to high school. I had a series of different things that were happening, but nothing had happened since then. Here I am, 10 years later, so I thought I'm going to call him, and so I did call him and we talked and I thought you know what I'm going to have.

Speaker 2: 25:40

If I'm going to have a relationship, I know it's going to be on his terms.

Speaker 2: 25:43

It's not going to be on my terms. My terms would be I know you've been through therapy and you've gotten help and it will never happen, right? So I didn't. I didn't talk about it, I just said I just want to have a relationship with you. And so we developed a really good relationship and really connect. We connected intellectually, emotionally. I mean, he and I. Just we always did have a great relationship when we had a relationship.

Speaker 2: 26:09

And then when I had my daughter, which is my second child, and so that's another six or seven years after that whole event had happened, he and I have had a good relationship for all those years since then. And I called him. I said, dad, I think it's time for us to talk. He said you know what it is. I flew to where he lived he lived in Washington DC and I just went, left my husband, my daughter and my son behind and I went to see him and he picked me up at the airport and right away we started talking and we got to his house and I said so tell me what happened to you, because I know something happened to you. This is not a natural thing for a parent who loves their child to do to their child. So something must have happened. And then he told me his story about how he had been sexually abused and what happened.

Speaker 2: 27:06

And he, he was crying and saying I can't believe I did to you what I did. You were such a beautiful child, I loved you so much and I can't believe I hurt you the way that I did. And I mean we really got very close and connected. He never told any of my siblings about that. You know, it was just something he, something we had shared.

Speaker 1: 27:25

So again.

Speaker 2: 27:26

I'm I at this point when that happened I'm in, like my, my early thirties, and so he and I had a great relationship through the balance of his life. He died when he was 89. And you know, we really were very close and I had him visit with my kids, and all of that because some good healing had taken place. And I told him at the time I said, dad, I forgave you a long time ago because I know something must have happened, but I need you to forgive yourself because I can tell you're carrying so much shame, and he was. So I think that our conversation helped him a lot, but I don't think he, I don't think he let go of everything. I know he didn't, even though he was a a in a a and part of a a. You know, you take a fearless moral inventory, you make amends where, um, that's not going to harm the other person, to make amends.

Speaker 2: 28:24

I don't think he fully made amends to everyone, including everyone in in in my family, all the siblings. Um, I think he just still carried so much shame and so when he was dying the last year of his life, he was like in and out of a rehab center, like more of a physical rehab center. He was having cognitive issues and physical issues and it wasn't his deathbed, but it was very close. Okay, I went to see him and he started crying again and he told me I'm really sorry for what I did to you. I just can't believe I did to you what I did and I love you.

Speaker 2: 29:13

And so he had a couple opportunities to say that the one thing I will share. That was hard at the end, even after having so many years of a good relationship with him, which I recognize is extraordinary. I mean, it's really uncommon for that and, um, you know, I'm grateful that he and I've had what we had. So I wrote a, a book, uh, that I published in 2019, a fictional story, and it's about a 13 year old girl so I was going to ask you about that yeah, so it's um.

Speaker 2: 29:51

The book is called hope I. Here we go, hope island. I have it in English and in Spanish.

Speaker 1: 29:58

And we'll have that in the show notes as well. Great.

Speaker 2: 30:02

So it's a story, a fictional story, of a 13-year-old girl who is going through sexual abuse in her home and she goes on this I'll call it a magical adventure where she receives healing and she learns different practices for healing and for self-regulating, for calming her body, getting centered, being connected to her truth and her essence. That explains methods for doing the things that this character learned in her magical adventure. So the intention is for people to be able to pick practices that are going to be helpful to them in their own healing and growth. So I was very proud of having wrote this book. I didn't make it a biography, it's a fictional story but it's, of course, my story embedded in it.

Speaker 2: 31:01

So I called my dad to tell him and, just like I called my siblings to tell him, I wanted my family to know I have this book that I want to publish. I'm going to put it on Amazon and I want you to be aware and I sent copies to everybody for them to read before getting it officially published. And when I told my dad everybody for them to read before getting it officially published and when I told my dad, he said to me I hope I die before it's ever published. And he did. He did die, in fact, he got sick within a couple months after that, and then he passed away before the book ever hit the streets.

Speaker 2: 31:35

So I mean, that's just was gut wrenching.

Speaker 1: 31:39

Yeah, I mean, and I know, knowing you, that you weighed all that out in terms of the consequences of telling this story, and I know you still consider that. And yet you have to tell your story. That, and yet you have to tell your story, right, right and and I think so many people struggle with that like, oh, I don't want to upset so-and-so, and, and so how did you go through? How did you reconcile some of that for yourself?

Speaker 2: 32:08

well for me. That was the biggest hurdle for me to get over to actually publish. It's one thing to write it and get it down, because there was a huge, huge release for me to just write the story but to actually publish it. And now again I talk about how shame. You can feel this shame from the story. I don't feel any shame around what happened anymore and I don't feel shame for my dad either, because we've gone through this healing process together. But I know how the world is going to view him.

Speaker 2: 32:46

And in fact, this is my first time talking publicly about him and our story, because he has siblings that are still alive and they think the world of them. And I, I'm still protecting my dad, just like the children do who are abused. They, they, protect them, they protect their. You know their perpetrator, they protect their parent and I I'm still, to this age in stage in my life, been protecting, protecting his siblings and protecting him, because there's no need for them to be hurt around this. He's not doing this anymore. He didn't do this for decades. It happened when he was in his alcoholism, so long ago, and so for me to have the courage to publish it, it was an I had felt well dad and I have healed and we've had this great journey together and I'm going to put it in a fictional story.

Speaker 2: 33:41

So I'm not saying it's my story. So I'm thinking, okay, everybody's protected because it's a fictional story. And I also knew it was so important for me to use my voice. I mean, until I'm willing to speak up and say what's happened, I'm still held as a prisoner of that past experience. The only way to liberate myself is to be able to talk about it and not carry fear around that anymore and not feel like it's my job, who I was, the child, my job to protect the adult yes, yeah, and I did all I could to protect him through my whole life and I really tried to do this in a way that was respectful of him.

Speaker 2: 34:29

But I I felt like it was more important if, if someone else can read this book and find healing from this and find their voice, it's way more important than any shame he's going to carry. Or, you know, the world knowing we didn't have a perfect home, Right.

Speaker 1: 34:45

Well, you know, I just it takes such amazing strength and courage to do what you've done and just on this whole journey, and I think in the fact that you were able to heal your relationship with your dad, for yourself and for him, and right there I mean that's off the charts. And then to take the story and use your voice, like you say, and who knows who it's going to help, and it's in talking about these things, because for so many centuries we didn't talk about it.

Speaker 2: 35:22

Right.

Speaker 1: 35:23

And so it's only been maybe last, I don't know 20 years or so, and I don't even know if it's been that that you it's. More and more people are coming forward. I think the statistic now is one in three, something like that has experienced some kind of sexual abuse and to some degree, and so I just, I love you.

Speaker 2: 35:46

And I love you, I love you.

Speaker 1: 35:48

I admire your courage so much. I really do, yeah, and what did your siblings think when you sent it out to everybody?

Speaker 2: 35:56

They were all really proud of me. I didn't know what they would think, you know, because I asked. I was asking everyone's permission. I wasn't going to publish it. If they said, no, don't do this, this won't be good, then I wouldn't have done it. But they all were really supportive. They all read the transcript, you know, before I ever published it, and so they each gave me their blessing.

Speaker 1: 36:20

And I'm sure there was some healing for them in in reading your story too, because there was probably some sharing of you know some their experiences might've been different, but it was a. It was a shared trauma in the home as well.

Speaker 2: 36:33

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 36:34

Yeah, so the book um is it? Is it geared for younger people? I mean any age group. How would you characterize that?

Speaker 2: 36:45

Well, the character is 13. And so I think from middle school, uh, to any higher age, is is fine. Nowadays kids are so mature, they're experiencing and exposed to so much probably nine or 10, you could actually have a child read that book and it wouldn't face them the fact that it does. I don't get graphic, but I do indicate about dad coming into the room at night, okay, and what he does, things that I don't like, okay. So it's not graphic, but still, um, you know, at that age you'd have to gauge the child. But I've had more adults read the book in in doing their own inner child work work, than children reading the book.

Speaker 1: 37:31

Yeah, Um, so I and I know you have a vision of trying to get this into the schools. Where would you like to go with this?

Speaker 2: 37:42

I think it would be great if it was in schools, but you know it does have a whole spiritual theme and message, so I don't know that the public schools would ever really pick it up. I've had a principal read it and some educators and they love it. Like we got to get this in the schools, but nothing happens with it, and I think that's the reason why I have reached out to several different what do you call like domestic abuse shelters, sexual abuse shelters, people who are undergoing the rehab from human trafficking and sex trafficking. I've reached out to some of those organizations and offered to donate them, and I'm happy to donate them to whoever it's going to be helpful to. So I think that's where it might resonate most.

Speaker 1: 38:34

So I think that's where it might resonate most and I remember reading it and it's a great book, it's a great story and I don't remember thinking that it was. I don't know if anybody can hear that. That's the ice cream man going by right now. Never goes by the house.

Speaker 2: 38:50

I don't know what that's about.

Speaker 1: 38:52

I didn't hear it, but thanks for the thought of ice cream Kind of cool, I like the ice cream man going by um. But I, you know, I don't remember the book being heavy in. I mean it had some general spiritual principles that I think anybody could embrace. Yeah, I I don't know if that is was it would be a turnoff or not for um the system, but I think it's really a book. So if anybody that's listening today and really resonates with Donna's story and would like to get this book out there to help other young kids, I think that's really important because we can't have enough of this going on.

Speaker 2: 39:36

I think that's really important, because we can't have enough of this going on. Yeah, it is. It is something that's passed on from generation to generation, and that's what the research shows. Yeah, my mom had been sexually abused by her grandfather and she married someone who abused her children. You know, and that's such a common story.

Speaker 1: 40:04

It is yeah, so you wrote. You wrote this book just a few years ago, and so you were, were, were working to get it into the schools or to get it into different groups, that that, um, where it will resonate. What else do you do in your life now, now that I'm retired?

Speaker 2: 40:17

I feel like fun is my job. My job is to be joyful. So what I find really brings me joy is I like working out. That's something. When I was working in the corporate world I sacrificed my health for my job. I did that. Nobody did it to me. But when I was retiring and doing an exit interview my boss asked me what are you most looking forward to? And I said getting healthy. And it has felt really good to do that. So I'm in the gym several days a week doing different exercise classes and a lot of dance classes, because dancing brings me joy. It's a great physical release for me.

Speaker 1: 40:57

Can I stop you right there, because I think what you said is really important about sacrificing our health for our job. There's so many people out there doing it, doing that very thing. Why do you think that was going on for you?

Speaker 2: 41:12

I think I just got so much validation of being good enough by being good at my job and then again being this super responsible personality. You know my job. I explained some of the things as a kid. You know my job was to take care of other people in the home and, you know, have this responsibility getting those things accomplished. And so in the workplace I was a great employee. You could count on me. I'll do whatever you need to do to get the job done. Work, whatever hours it's going to take to get it done, I want to get it done right, and when I do, I feel good about me. So it was more of a looking to an external source for me to feel good about me, and so that's where retirement has been the best thing for my mental health, not just because I don't have those kinds of stressors but, I don't have anything coming from the external validating me anymore.

Speaker 2: 42:10

I've had to just be with me and I'm single. I have a dog and a cat. You know I'm that lady, and so I spent a lot of time alone. I have a lot of wonderful girlfriends You're one of them that I could spend time with but I still spend a lot of time alone. So feeling good about me and enjoying my life, you know that source is coming from my own spiritual beliefs and self-generated love for my life, and that's the place I had to get to. So working out does that. And then I got exposed to pickleball about a year and a half ago and I am having a blast with that. I cannot believe I'm one of those people. I'm out there on the courts all the time playing. It's just, it's so fun it makes me feel like a kid again when I play.

Speaker 2: 43:04

I literally have flashbacks of a feeling of what it was like as a kid to play, and I didn't have a lot of play time.

Speaker 2: 43:14

Like I said I had an alcoholic home since day one. It was messed up. So home wasn't this place where we did a lot of playing. We went out and played in the yard in the neighborhood with friends, went to other people's house to play, I played sports and that was fun and I felt good. So it's like bringing back the joy of just playing for the sake of just playing and that's been super healing for my inner child. And then to do it with a bunch of grownups, we're all like a bunch of kids with gray hair out there. It's a riot.

Speaker 1: 43:47

I love what you said. You said my job is to have fun, because that goes such a long way when we really give ourselves permission to have fun, and what that does to us internally, I mean on every level mentally, spiritually, emotionally it's very something that we don't we don't talk enough about as a society.

Speaker 2: 44:12

Yeah, I really struggled with it. When I I first retired, I thought, well, I need to be doing something, I have to be contributing. Somehow I'm supposed to be doing right, what am I supposed to be doing? I'd be meditating on it, what am I supposed to be doing? And finally I got to this point. I'm like isn't it okay to just say I'm retired? Isn't it okay just to focus on being joyful and connecting with other people and trying to be as present in this life experience as I can be and not have my mind somewhere else. Just bring my mind to where my body is and just enjoy what is happening right now. So you know, I'm feeling like I'm getting really good at being retired.

Speaker 1: 45:00

Yes, you are, yes, you are. And that that whole thing about the being versus doing, yeah, and shaking out some of those messages that we've had from coming at us from a lot of different directions yes, so you were doing a good job at reshaping that.

Speaker 2: 45:17

Yeah, I'm reshaping that and it still comes up. There are times I think, well, you know, should I be doing something? But it's like I really trust in my intuition. I really trust when I get a calling and so I'll know when that thing comes up that I'm supposed to do. You know, then, I'm going to do it, like recently with this amazing women emerging group that we have. You know, an opportunity came up to get more involved in that at an administrative end. It felt right, just something inside of said yeah, do this. I didn't have to think about it. It was a split second decision and I just knew that that's right. So I just trust in that.

Speaker 1: 45:52

Do you think your your intuition because of what you've experienced in your life?

Speaker 2: 46:04

Well, it's probably my intuition. I would say that I developed a great skill of empathy, and that was a survival skill, like to be able to sense what's going on with someone, what are they thinking, possibly what are they feeling, and just being so in tuned with someone like hypervigilant. That way it developed such a strong skill because I had to figure out am I going to get hit? You know what's going to happen next. And so I became so skillful at being able to pull myself in the shoes of other people. It served me really well in my profession. I went into human resources and I did a lot of leadership training and team building and it just my intuition works so well. When I'm just present and my mind's not somewhere else, I can just tune in and I just sense what's going on and can really empathize. And so it developed those skills for me. Yeah, it probably is one of the gifts of that aspect of the journey.

Speaker 1: 47:06

Yeah, and there's always gifts, right, there's always gifts that developed as a result of the things that happened to us. No question.

Speaker 2: 47:12

Yeah, it's done for us, not to us.

Speaker 1: 47:15

Yes, life is, yep, life is for us, yes, and I can certainly attest to that. You are extremely empathetic person, but you also have that strong intuition. I think it goes hand in hand. For sure. Yeah, thank you. So to finish up our interview meaning and moxie. When you think of those two words and you think of your life, what does that mean to you? Meaningful, moxie-filled life?

Speaker 2: 47:45

Well, definitely the meaningful that has purpose and recognizing one's own purpose. None of this is happenststance. It's not by accident that every breath we take has meaning. The moxie is like let's have some attitude here, you know, like be proud of it, be proud of whatever it is. Like don't shame is a waste, it is a total waste of energy. Just like guilt, I mean guilt might keep you, you know, as a kid, from stealing, but you know it's just, it's not a necessary emotion to have, or certainly not to hold onto.

Speaker 2: 48:27

So, yeah, for me, Moxie, is having confidence, having a little attitude, a little swag, and you know, it's just like allowing yourself to show up and be seen right, Allowing your voice to be heard, you know, allowing the planet to know you're here, you know you're alive and you're awake and you're allowed to take up space. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 48:51

Yeah, and that is what you are doing. That is what you are doing in every sense of the word. So I just I think I think that's a great wrap up right there for this interview. I thank you so much. This has been really, really I know it's going to help a lot of people and it's just it's really warmed my heart in a big way.

Speaker 2: 49:14

Thank you, I've enjoyed it. Leslie, I really adore you and I love that you're doing this. Thank you for giving me an opportunity to be here and connect with you and others.

Speaker 1: 49:26

All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. Be sure you check out the show notes for Donna's book and we'll have information there on RRT and anything else that Donna wants to throw in there. And take care and we'll talk to you soon. Bye, now Bye. If this podcast was valuable to you, it would mean so much if you could take 30 seconds to do one or all of these three things. Do one or all of these three things. Follow or subscribe to the podcast and, while there, leave a review and then maybe share this with a friend if you think they'd like it. In a world full of lots of distractions, I so appreciate you taking the time to listen in Until next time, be well and take care.