Empowering Women to Advocate in A Broken Healthcare System

What happens when you trust your doctor, only to find out later that the surgery you underwent was unnecessary? Join me, as I sit down with Susan, an inspiring author and researcher, who shares her incredible journey of self-advocacy after such an experience. Susan's book, "Sidelined: How Women Can Navigate a Broken Healthcare System," sheds light on the importance of questioning medical authority and being proactive in healthcare decisions. Through her extensive research, including interviews with over 60 women, Susan reveals the common fears and hesitations that hold many back from seeking second opinions or challenging their doctors' advice.

We'll dive into the unique challenges women face in medical settings, such as the fear of being labeled difficult or the pressure to comply with recommendations. Susan and I also discuss practical strategies for feeling more comfortable with a diagnosis, asking thorough questions, and taking the time necessary to make well-informed decisions. This episode is packed with invaluable advice for anyone looking to better advocate for their health or the health of their loved ones.

Bio:
Susan Salenger is the author and researcher behind SIDELINED: How Women Can Navigate A Broken Healthcare System. Sidelined examines the many ways in which some women manage and sometimes mismanage their healthcare.

Susan explores how women, typically the medical gatekeepers for their families, tend to be extremely conscientious about taking care of themselves, yet at the same time inadvertently undermine their own care. They often hesitate to call the doctor when they don’t feel well and worry that their doctor visit will take time away from their families or work. They may hesitate to ask doctors the necessary questions and don’t always comply with the doctor’s instructions. Salenger’s research reveals how conflicted many women are about the medical decisions they ultimately make.

Born and raised in Los Angeles, Susan attended UCLA to study English. After graduation, she worked alongside her husband Fred for 25 years at their production company, Salenger Films, which produced corporate training and development films distributed worldwide. Today, at age 81, Susan lives in Northern California to be near her incredible family which includes her two daughters, four grandchildren, a cat named Max and a dog named JD (Salenger). When she is not speaking about her book or spending time with family and friends, you will find Susan power lifting to stay in shape.

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https://twitter.com/susansalenger

https://www.linkedin.com/in/susan-salenger-a4a02716/

@shewritesdotcom (IG)

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Link to buy the book

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

So are you looking for more inspiration and possibility in midlife and beyond? Join me, leslie Maloney, proud wife, mom, author, teacher and podcast host, as I talk with people finding meaning in Moxie in their life after 50. Interviews that will energize you and give you some ideas to implement in your own life. I so appreciate you being here. Now let's get started. Okay, welcome Susan. I've been really looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker 2: 0:35

Well, thank you so much for having me. I truly appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 0:38

Yes, yes, let's dive into this. You have written a book I'm so interested in. It is called. You're the author and the researcher of a book called Sidelined how Women Can Navigate a Broken Healthcare System Such a big topic, yes. So what prompted you to write this book?

Speaker 2: 1:00

You know it was really a journey, serendipitous in a certain sense. Many, many, many years ago, I mean when I was in my 20s or 30s. I'm in my 80s now. So you, I mean really many years ago I was I agreed to have a surgery that I knew I didn't need. I had switched medications. I started having symptoms, which to me was obviously the new medication, which to me was obviously the new medication. The doctor didn't agree and said I needed exploratory surgery. And you know I knew I didn't because I had to be the medication, but nevertheless I agreed to the surgery and you know I was right, I didn't need it. I went back on the old meds and lived healthily ever after. So that was that.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Then, many, many years after that, my husband and I sold our business and I retired for two or three seconds. That didn't work for me at all. So I went back to school and took some anthropology classes and for one of the classes I did a project on women who had had hysterectomies and many of them or not many, but several of them had actually agreed to that surgery, even though they didn't think they needed a couple of them were sure that their symptoms were just menopausal. I don't know if they were right or not, but nevertheless they had agreed also to a surgery that they didn't need and there's, of course, was irrevocable. So that made me wonder how is women? Do we make our medical decisions? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:27

And I think this applies to men as well, because I think there is for many people, an intimidation factor when they walk in the doctor's office, and that's at play maybe more with women than men, I'm not sure. But um and and not speaking what we know to be true, because we're the ones walking around in our bodies, not exactly that's the whole point of the book.

Speaker 2: 2:54

frankly, um and I do agree that it probably does I don't know. I have not researched men's behavior. I mean, obviously I'm interested in women's but nevertheless I'm sure it is true and I think that we also get frightened. I mean, I was frightened, but what I didn't realize at the time and the point I really want to make is I mean, most of the time the doctor is right. I'm not going to say that they're not, I don't mean it that way.

Speaker 2: 3:19

But back when I had my surgery, I had options. I could have gotten a second opinion, which I should have done. I could have waited a week or two, gone back on the old meds and see and to see whether or not the symptoms stopped. I mean, I wasn't going to keel over in 24 hours. You know what I mean. But that was silly of me. I didn't do my research, so I had, I didn't take charge at all. I went back and forth with them a little bit, but nevertheless, I mean, he's the doctor and so I just went with it. But I was young. I wouldn't do that today. I would get a second opinion, I would go back on the old meds. So I think that I don't know that men agree so easily. I don't know that they don't, but I just don't know.

Speaker 1: 4:02

Yeah, so tell us about your research process in writing this book. I know you had some focus groups and you had particular women that you interviewed.

Speaker 2: 4:17

How did you go about putting that together? Well, it was interesting what I did at first, because I needed, I wanted to interview women and see what their experiences were. So I reached out to the various support groups. I purposely picked women with different diseases of what I call women's diseases, like endometriosis, breast cancer, but nevertheless, I excuse me, I wanted to see, I wanted it was their behavior I was interested in, not the particular disease. So I reached out to the various support groups of you know, the lupus group, the endometriosis groups, etc. And asked you know, posted, I'm a writer and I need some, I'd love to talk to you, etc. And you know I got some replies and this woman knew this woman and this woman knew that woman, etc. Etc. And so I got a bunch of women that I was able to talk to and then I went to their homes. This was, you know, several years ago. So then I wanted, most of my women were local to me. I didn't want to fly all over the country. I couldn't afford to fly all over the country.

Speaker 2: 5:17

So I did put together some focus groups because I wanted geographical diversity and, frankly, that was I threw money at the problem. I just simply hired a facilit. Diversity and, frankly, that was I threw money at the problem. I just simply hired a facilitator. And there's a companies that do this and they put the focus group together and helped facilitate it etc.

Speaker 2: 5:34

So by the time I was done, though, I had talked with over 60 women, and I was able to find several, several things that they had in common, as I said, regardless of their particular disease, and it was really interesting because so many of them did hesitate to get a second opinion. And then, as you asked about my research process, as I extrapolated the different behaviors that I wanted to examine, then I went into the literature to see if particular women I talked to was that was the behavior that they were expressing, unique to them or was had there been research done on it? And 10 out of 10 times I found there there was a ton of research on all of these things fascinating yeah, really fascinating.

Speaker 1: 6:16

what do you think it is that keeps people women in this, in this uh case from getting second opinions?

Speaker 2: 6:25

It's very interesting. I think it's so much of a socialization and cultural process. First of all, we're taught we don't want to be rude. We're taught to play nice. We're taught that the doctor is our friend and we don't want to hurt his feelings. One woman, though, actually said to me which I thought was really interesting she didn't want, she was afraid she'd be labeled a difficult patient. She said she would never ask for a second opinion because she was so afraid that if he or she, if they thought that she was difficult, that they would put that in a chart and it would follow her throughout her medical career. As she put it, and I think that's part of it too. But women are, we're not particularly confrontational, and it's viewed as a confrontation. A second opinion is viewed as if you're saying to the doctor I don't know that you're right and that's really not what you're saying. You're saying let's check this out, what else could it be? I mean, there's a lot of ways to handle it. It's not a confrontation.

Speaker 1: 7:28

And I think that we need to remember who is the paying customer. Yes, yes, yes, it's so true. When you walk in when you mentioned that about being, you know, feeling that you're going to offend the doctor or whatever I remember being with my mom and her later years, I would go to her doctor's appointments with her, and she was afraid of that too, of being labeled difficult, so much to the point where she felt like the doctor would drop her. Yes, have difficulty with insurance. I mean, she kind of played the whole thing out and I and I just say, Mom, you know, it's okay.

Speaker 1: 8:05

You can. You can disagree with the doctor, but especially that generation really did not question.

Speaker 2: 8:13

Well, and I think, in fact, one of the things I say in my book is that one of the questions that you want to ask when you we want to do a couple things. When you receive a diagnosis, be sure you're comfortable with it. I mean, does it feel like it's a fit? And nevertheless, even when it does, you want to say to the doctor what else could this possibly be like? You know, I know you've had a lot of experience with disease X. Have all of your patients that have come in with these symptoms, have they all had disease X, or is there something else that could possibly be? So that way you're, you're acknowledging that he's experienced, he's the expert, but I would seriously doubt that a hundred percent of the patients that have had your particular symptoms have all had that one disease.

Speaker 2: 9:05

I think what women don't realize, I certainly did what people don't realize. This is probably true of men as well. Excuse me, but there's 30 or 40,000 diseases out there, and those are just the ones we know about. I seem to be losing my voice this morning.

Speaker 1: 9:20

Oh, that's okay, we can hear you fine, good good, good, good, but I mean truly.

Speaker 2: 9:24

And so many of the diseases, so many of the symptoms mimic each other. I mean, if you go to the doctor and you say, oh, I'm tired, I have no appetite, my energy's this, I'm irritable, I mean those symptoms fit, you know, out of the 30,000 diseases, probably 29,500 of them, you know so for the doctor. A diagnosis is like looking for a needle in a haystack. It is. It's your questions are legitimate. That's what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 1: 9:51

They really are and there's so many things that overlap and getting that, getting those other perspectives, I think even more than a second opinion in some cases, you know like really taking the time, because you mentioned earlier about feeling you're afraid, often right, and you. There's this idea that we have to move fast. Yes, how to get ahead?

Speaker 2: 10:14

of it Right, exactly, and we also want physical relief immediately. Yes, you know, and I think that that's an issue, and I think, giving yourself, if there's I mean if it's an emergency you have no choice. I don't know that I would wait a month if I had breast cancer or something, I wouldn't handle it immediately, but when when it's not an emergency like that, I think it's you need to process it. You need to do your research. You need to look up the disease. Does it feel right? Do your symptoms fit? What's the prognosis? What's the treatment? How was it diagnosed? Did you have all the tests that you were supposed to have?

Speaker 1: 10:51

Yeah, yeah, I mean, and I think taking even if it's just a few days, depending on the situation, like you mentioned, but taking that time to process it and step away from the doctor's office in that moment. I've had friends tell me recently that in dealing with different situations, you know physically that they, before they were leaving, whatever was being discussed before they were leaving the doctor's office, the staff was making an appointment, without their consent really, for the next procedure, for the next step, and just sort of sort of like this is what you're going to do next, without with just thought, wow, yeah, I had that happen to me.

Speaker 2: 11:34

actually, just really like four weeks ago I woke up with some pain in my hip and pain in my arm and I exercise a lot, and so at first I thought it was just you know, I probably pulled the muscle or something, but it's lasted now for about four months. So I went to the doctor and everybody said to me well, you know, you're 81, stuff happens, don't worry. But I didn't want to be a victim of my own ageism, I mean seriously. And I go to the doctor and they take an x ray and he says you have, you know. You know, he said I had bursitis in my hip and whatever, tendonitis in my arm, okay. And he said, well, don't you want surgery? We're surgeons. And I I mean I said well, maybe I'll just start with the Tylenol first. It was ridiculous, but so I know exactly what you're saying yes, yeah, it's really it's.

Speaker 1: 12:23

it's like a, it's like a train that's moving, and sometimes it's hard to step off of it when you get on.

Speaker 2: 12:30

Yes, exactly. I mean he was appalled that I wasn't there for surgery. I mean, come on, really, yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:37

Yeah, and and so good for you. So do you? You feel like writing this book has certainly empowered you in the situations that you're in now.

Speaker 2: 12:46

Yes, one of the things that's really taught me is how important it is to do your own research. In fact, I just want to make a plug for the book for a minute, because I rarely do oh absolutely.

Speaker 2: 12:56

But at the back of the book there's a resource section which in many ways, is the most important part of the book. When I say research, it tells you how to research, tells you how to check on your doctor. What are their credentials, what hospital are they associated with? Some hospitals specialize in cardiology, some specialize in neurology. You want to know what your, what, what the hospital's bent is, so to speak. You know, if you have choice I'm in san francisco, so I have a lot of choices. I mean, not everybody has that but it tells you really how to, how to check on the drugs.

Speaker 2: 13:31

In fact, again, I have a personal story. Uh, I, for I've lost my husband recently and I'm now on an antidepressant, for obvious reasons. And so, um, when this started, I went to another doctor. First, I had started out actually with the pain in my thumb, and so I thought, you know, I better check this out. So I did, and she said you have arthritis. Same thing. And she said you know, here's a drug, try this pill. It'll, you know, help you. So I said well, does the pill interfere with Lexapro, my antidepressant? And she said no, no, no, no, you'll be just fine. Well, I wrote this book. So I go home.

Speaker 2: 14:09

I thought I better listen to my own words and I looked up the drug and she was mostly right. It was 99% she was right. But 1% of the people on the drug that are also on Lexapro get a brain bleed. So if you're the 1% the drug that are also on lexapro get a brain bleed. So if you're the one percent you know I had to really weigh the risk for a sore thumb versus a potential brain bleed that I think I was going to have it. No, but what if I did? It wasn't worth it so I threw the pills out. Thumb healed.

Speaker 2: 14:37

Yeah, I mean you just you have to weigh the risks and the benefits is what I'm trying to say. And she was honest. It wasn't that she wasn't it, it didn't occur to mention it, and I'm glad I did the research.

Speaker 1: 14:50

Yeah, and so many people are on different medications. And if you're dealing with different doctors. You don't know they can be interfering with each other. The different side effects I don't think we give that enough of a look, so good for you for researching that out.

Speaker 2: 15:06

And that's something I really stress is that you really want to research your drugs, just like you said. So many of them can interact with each other, and if there's not a doctor in charge, you need to bring your list of meds. You need to bring the dosages you take, write down how frequently you take it Is it daily, weekly, monthly, I mean whatever and that includes vitamins and supplements, incidentally.

Speaker 1: 15:31

Right, right, yeah, they can interact. I think that's great that you put that in the back of the book, because you hear people talk about this problem. But to have a resource where you can go to, all right, this, this is how I check out my doctor.

Speaker 1: 15:46

This is how I check out my meds and it is how, when you were putting down the resources for the meds, how do you know that you're not dealing with when I go to research? How do I know I'm not dealing with a pharmaceutical advertisement Right when I'm looking at that?

Speaker 2: 16:05

if you go to I've forgotten what what I did on the drugs there. But if you go to, drugscom is one I use frequently, okay, and I also can just google does Lexapro interact with Tylenol or whatever? Yeah, and you'll get an answer, you know right. And if it doesn't feel right, go to Mozilla or Firefox and you'll get it, but you might even get a different answer. Yeah, but you want to be aware and usually you can tell. If it's an ad, it'll say sponsored or something. But drugscom, um, I don't think is sponsored. I actually don't know. I'd have to go back and check, it's okay um, so.

Speaker 1: 16:42

So using those different search engines, digging around a little bit, I think think is yeah, is important, so that we know we're getting different perspectives on that, so critical it is it really is. So getting back to the docs do you think men and a male doctor or female doctor, do you think that? Did you find it in writing your book that that was a different interaction for the women?

Speaker 2: 17:10

Yes, it is a different, and I'm not saying better or worse, I'm simply saying different. So many times people ask me should I go to a male doctor or a female doctor? And I think what's important and, incidentally, my personal doctors are both I do it on competence and I choose a doctor at number one on how competent I think they are. I base it a lot on where they were trained. One of my doctors was trained at Harvard and Stanford. I mean, it's hard to do better than that and I also I base it a lot on the relationship too, and I think that there's a difference.

Speaker 2: 17:45

Women will spend more time with you Women doctors. The visit is actually a few minutes longer than with the male doctor, and women will are more interested in hearing about your whole being, how you feel as a person, how it's affecting your lifestyle, etc. But on the other hand, now that I've said that I have one doctor, a man, who spends literally 45 minutes to an hour with me, I go once or twice. I mean that's unheard of, and today, that is unusual.

Speaker 2: 18:12

Yeah, I mean, he's fantastic. And I have a woman doctor who says, hi, how are you? And I go, fine, well, I'm not fine, I just lost my husband. And she goes, that's good, and then we get down to I mean. So these things, what I'm telling you are generalities. It depends on the specific person. But, on the hand, if you're a woman and you're on your lunch hour and you want to run in and run out, just have a quick appointment, go to a male doctor. If you want to really have a relationship in a different way, go to a female doctor. It depends on your needs. Yeah, I think, go ahead, okay. Well, I just want one more thing. I talk a lot, I apologize, but what's really important is that you want then there's research to back this up you want somebody you're comfortable with, and there's all kinds of reasons for that You'll be more open, you'll divulge or reveal more of your symptoms, you'll be more likely to comply with the treatment recommendations, et cetera. So that, but that was all I'm done.

Speaker 1: 19:15

Yeah, no, I'm, I think that's. I mean once again going back to your intuition and does this feel right for me in this? Does this person do I feel heard? Uh, and they're caught up in the broken system too to some degree. Some degree, they're on the treadmill with the insurance companies trying to see so many patients per hour, many of them, and it's just so. So, from their perspective, you know, I'm sure it's not ideal as well no-transcript Most of the clinical tests, although that's no longer true.

Speaker 2: 20:20

But up until recently most of the clinical tests were done on six foot, you know white males, not even black males, so it's a very narrow. The clinical studies are very narrow. Women researchers get much less money than male researchers. Women's diseases, as I said, get less money, I mean. So there's some good reasons. The doctor may say it's all in your head. We sometimes really don't know what a heart attack looks like, for example in a woman or what, and I think that's important to understand. And it's also why a second opinion, which in a heart attack you can't do necessarily, but that's why second opinions are so important.

Speaker 1: 21:01

If you if you go to and I know you talk about this in your book if you go to a doctor and and you feel like, oh gosh, I, I, that was not a good appointment, I, I didn't say what I needed to say, or these were the other things I forgot to say, how do you dig yourself out of that? What are some of your recommendations?

Speaker 2: 21:24

Oh, I'm so glad you asked. I just happened to have a few. The first thing I would say to prevent that from happening is I always again, because of my research, I've learned a lot myself. You know I strongly suggest that everybody write out a list of their symptoms and their medications. Medications first of all, you need to prioritize your symptoms. You want to write it out because I I'm sure everybody's like not everybody, but a lot of people are like me I get really anxious when I go to the doctor and, frankly, I forget half of what it is. I wanted to say so. I always write out my questions now and my symptoms and my meds. It takes me five, but it's worth it because that way I don't forget anything and also I have a list that I can show the doctor. I was on a podcast with the doctor recently and she said she loves it when patients bring in a list because, although they've prioritized their symptoms, she'll look at it and real fast she may say you know, the mole on your back is more important than what you said was number one. I mean. So she'll start with what she thinks is important and that's fabulous. But so that's.

Speaker 2: 22:36

I think by doing what I just suggested. You'll avoid what you just the scenario you just you know talked about. But if you do do that, I think there's different ways you can. I mean, if you do forget half of what you want to say, you have options. I mean you can make another appointment, you can email the doctor. There's patient portals Now. You can go in and, you know, list your questions and also you can take somebody with you and that will help you. They can nudge you and say, well, didn't you forget this or that or the other thing? Yeah, but if you go in with a list, it won't happen to you.

Speaker 2: 23:12

I've learned that you know it's a good, not the hard way, but the good way.

Speaker 1: 23:24

So there are ways to, I guess, repair. If you feel like your appointment wasn't, wasn't proactive, there are ways to. I think it's you know, you just don't want to slink away and go.

Speaker 2: 23:29

Oh well, exactly, there's ways to repair it Exactly and you want to make sure that, if that does happen number one was it because you didn't say what you needed to say or was it because you felt the doctor didn't listen and didn't ask questions? If you can think through in your own head, was it me or was it them?

Speaker 1: 23:53

And that's an important answer you want and it was once again, I'll refer back to my mom. It was very helpful when I was going to appointments with her because we would hear different things Right and I could be her advocate. And it was also coming in with a list. I got different responses when they would see the list in my hand. It was. It was almost like A very empowering thing because I'm coming in with my list and for some doctors that was, I almost got a little bit of a pushback because you're asking questions and you're coming in with some ideas here on your own, oh geez.

Speaker 2: 24:39

And then others did like it and others did like it, but it was just sort of it changed the dynamic sometimes in the interaction when they saw the list, because it was an indication that we had I, I, my mom and I had done our homework right, and I think that if any doctor resents that you did your homework, if you have the option, run for the door, um, yes, and we did sometimes.

Speaker 1: 25:07

Yeah, I'll bet.

Speaker 2: 25:08

I'll bet Sure, and you do have to. You have to just to say how important it is not only to know to know your mother, but to know yourself, because that happened to us. My mom, when she was about 75, went in just for some outpatient knee surgery. No, no big deal. Came home, had the pain meds. You know, it was nothing. But within 24 hours of taking the pain meds she was literally senile. There was not a senile bone in her body at first, but she couldn't. She didn't even know who was president. I mean, my mother's IQ was enormous, you know, it was ridiculous.

Speaker 2: 25:41

So we called the doctor, we ran back and he took me. I mean, I couldn't believe. This family doctor, known us for years, took me aside and he said, Sue, I know you guys are a close family, but you know your mom's 75. And your parents are aging and you need to let them age graciously. You're making them feel bad. And I said, steve, that's not. I mean you don't get senile in 24 hours, you just don't. And he did not agree with me. So anyway, my dad and I went home, we threw out the meds and she was fine Again, she was allergic to something. I don't know what it was. But so you really have to advocate for yourself if something hits you totally wrong. If we'd left her on those meds, I don't know what would have happened.

Speaker 1: 26:22

Yeah, yeah, and it happens so frequently. You'll hear people tell a similar story like that very frequently.

Speaker 2: 26:30

Yes.

Speaker 1: 26:31

Yes, because you know, once again, we are the ones walking through our lives. The doctor's not with us 24 seven. We we know what's normal and what's not normal in ourselves and in other people around us. Right and just remembering that we are not a statistics in a sense.

Speaker 2: 26:48

Yes, no, it's so true. And remember again, we all, we still know less about women's bodies than we should Period. You know, women researchers even get published less often, so that the information isn't out there. And then sometimes, when it's out there, the information isn't separated by gender, so you don't know if something affects women differently from men. And then sometimes, when it's out there, the information isn't separated by gender, so you don't know if if something affects women differently from men.

Speaker 1: 27:13

I mean, I could go on and on you know I didn't know a book about it yeah, how long did it take you to write this book?

Speaker 2: 27:20

it sounds like you really dug in well, you know it took me about 10 years, but but that's not totally fair because I did it part-time. We moved from LA to up near San Francisco. I had grandkids in the process, you know. So there was a lot going on in my life at that time. This second book is good. Plus, I had a huge learning curve and the second book is going much faster. It's going to take two or three years. You know, there's a lot of research and I want to be accurate. I want to talk to a lot of research and I want to be accurate. Um, I want to talk to a lot of people and I mean that's what. That's what you need to do to get a feeling for what's really going on out there yeah, uh, are you, are you in contact?

Speaker 1: 27:59

so this are you in contact with the women at all, the 60 women that you interviewed is are you going to be? Are these books standing separate from each other?

Speaker 2: 28:14

Yes, I would. Actually I'll probably sell them as separately or as a set because in a way they go together. But that wasn't my intention. And, incidentally, no, I'm not in touch with them, and that I think that's one of the, I guess, beauties of interviewing. I purposely wanted to interview women I had never met before, because when you interview your friends it has a whole different quality and you can't ask the important questions because with a friend it's none of my business. With somebody that's volunteered their time, they're more than happy to tell me. In fact, one woman we were the one of the women that had a hysterectomy which certainly had affected her sex drive, and she was saying well, you know, I can tell you this because I know I'll never see you again, and she was right, I've never seen her since. And so I was able to get a lot more intimate information than if I had known the women. And, believe me, it's so tempting to call your friends and say, hey, do you have a few minutes? You know.

Speaker 1: 29:06

Yeah, yeah, and say, hey, do you have a few minutes? Yeah, yeah, well, I know. In my reading of your book I know that you made some points about women taking care of everyone else and not taking care of themselves. What did you? What kind of showed up in those interviews?

Speaker 2: 29:22

One of the things I really which I had not known and I found fascinating is that women do about 80%, or even maybe 85% of all the caretaking in the world. In other words, this caretaking gene if I can call it that that we have it transcends cultures. I mean, it's fascinating. But in the United States researchers asked women to prioritize a list of five things. What know what would they take care of? First and first, they all said they take care of their children. Second was their pets, which I absolutely love. Third was their elderly parents, which as an elderly parent I would have preferred to have been second, but oh well. Fourth was their significant others. And last but not least or maybe maybe it is least to them as themselves and I always say even the airlines tell you to put on your own mask before you put on your kids.

Speaker 2: 30:15

We're caretakers. We make all of the appointments, we're the medical gatekeepers of the family. We make 80% of the purchasing, health decisions. So the drug ads target us because they know that we're the ones that decide whether or not to buy. And it's just. I'm a strong believer in self care. Think about it when you don't feel good and you're irritable, as I said earlier, and you're tired and you're bitchy or whatever you are and you feel like crap. You really don't want to take care of other people, whether it's your children or your neighbor or your mother or whomever and I think it's really important to go to the doctor. A lot of women put off going to the doctor because they felt they didn't have time, and that's not a healthy thing to do for yourself or your family.

Speaker 1: 31:04

Mm, hmm, and taking care of yourself, so that it doesn't get to the point where you need to go to the doctor, right? Taking care of your stress levels. Finding those things for you that relieve your stress Right Is really important and it's okay it's not selfish to take that time to refill your cup Exactly, and you'll be better off for it, and so will your family.

Speaker 1: 31:31

I truly think that yeah, everybody will want to be around you more well, and that's and once again it's true for everybody. I mean no, I mean because we do, we get tired, we get crabby. Sure, you're just a better functioning person all the way around. When you are you, you you know you're taking care all the way around.

Speaker 2: 31:50

When you are you, you, you know you're taking care and you know let's. Let's just add a caveat to that Cause I know how hard that can be. I know that many women out there have little kids. They're the primary caretakers. On top of that, they also have jobs. They have to run a household. I mean it's really hard sometimes. I mean it's easy for me to say at this age, I have plenty of time I can do you know what, what I want when I want it. But that's a luxury that comes with old age. I mean I get that. But nevertheless, if you can find the time, find it anyway. Even if you can't, I'm gonna, because your life's not going to change till your kids grow up and get out of the house.

Speaker 1: 32:25

You know that's just how it goes and we're all there so yeah, and 20 minutes, 30 minutes, I mean whatever it is, you know getting absolutely getting that exercise. Talking to a friend eating, eating, you know, trying to eat better, it's rejuvenating it is absolutely a 20 minute.

Speaker 2: 32:47

Just lying down with your eyes closed for a minute, read a magazine, I mean. Whatever you choose to do, go for a walk. You know, even if it's around the backyard, it doesn't matter you know and asking for help.

Speaker 2: 33:00

Yes, Thank you for saying that. Right, right, right and women hesitate to ask for help. We I don't know why I, I, I don't. That's something I never had. Well, you know, it was easier for me. I was really lucky when my kids were little. My in-laws lived close by, my parents lived close by. I worked with my husband, I had a support you know support group the size of Texas. I was very lucky. But I realized not everybody is that lucky. Parents and children are scattered, et cetera.

Speaker 1: 33:31

You know, no, that's, that's a big one, and I think there's social training around, you know, for women, do it all, you can do it all, and so maybe women are afraid to ask for help because of that. I'm not really sure, but I think you're really hitting on some important parts here and and and I call it the, the mental load or the ticker in your head yes, yes, that women carry, like you said, where they're responsible for most of the caregiving and those kind of decisions, and that there's a mental load that comes with that yes, you know, it's interesting that you said that, because I mean that's true and I never put it that way to myself.

Speaker 2: 34:13

But I know, even when I'm working on the book and I get stuck on something and I just think, screw it, it's not happening today, but then I'll go for a walk, just a short walk, because I'm I get bored when I walk. You know, don't, don't tell anybody, but anyway, when I go for a walk and I find myself processing it, and sometimes when I come back home, problem solved. It's interesting how that happens and I don't know how it happens, I don't know why it happens my head clears without me doing anything. You know, on purpose.

Speaker 1: 34:45

So it's interesting how that works. Well, just the fresh air getting out in nature and just yeah, letting letting go of of and sometimes being too close to it too. You have to step back.

Speaker 2: 34:57

Yes, yeah, no. Sometimes I'll come back just in terms of the writing. I'll look at a paragraph and I'll say, good God, did I really write that? That sucks, because other times I think I'm brilliant. So it just depends where you catch me.

Speaker 1: 35:13

Yeah, yeah, we've all been there in one degree or another. It's true, it's true, yeah. So what other things I mean there's? There's just so many avenues we can go down here what? What would be your overall tips for women in dealing with this broken healthcare system, cause I think we all recognize that it's got a lot of dysfunction in it? It?

Speaker 2: 35:37

certainly does. I think the first thing. It's going to be the first thing, I would say, and probably the last thing. But remember, it's your body, you've only got the one and it's your job to take care of it. And that means taking care of yourself. That means making a list when you go to the doctor so that you're sure that all of your symptoms have been described and discussed and thoroughly examined. It means making a list of your meds so that you're sure there's no interference between them.

Speaker 2: 36:05

It means doing your research, not only researching your drugs, but researching your symptoms. Find out what they could possibly be. Know when you get a blood test, for example, look it up so you know if you're high here or low here, what that means, and then ask your doctor, of course, what the significance is. So I'm saying, be prepared. And if something doesn't feel right, it very well may not be, and if something doesn't feel right, it very well may not be. Go with your gut.

Speaker 2: 36:37

And that's a hard thing to say, because if you get a serious diagnosis and it doesn't feel right, are you in denial or does it really not feel right? Because it isn't right? And it's a hard guess. And that's when, if you do your research and you're well, my symptoms do, that diagnosis does match my symptoms or you know what it really doesn't. But get a second opinion, take care, be sure. I guess what I'm really saying be sure before you undergo any treatment and I don't mean a Tylenol, obviously, but any treatment, whether it's surgery or medication of any kind, that can have serious side effects be sure it's appropriate. One of the things I left out is gosh, I'm trying to think. 12 million people are misdiagnosed annually. Misdiagnosis is one of the leading causes of death, and women are misdiagnosed more often than men. So you don't want to take medication for a disease you may not have, so you want to be damn sure that it's really that you're convinced that you have it.

Speaker 1: 37:38

um, yeah, that's probably a low statistic too. Yes, I'll bet it is. Yeah, and we're, we're dealing. I mean, there's, there's, it's a money-making system. Let's, let's, let's call a spade a spade here, right, and so don't get caught up in spending money you don't need to right and you, as I said, you really don't want to take a drug.

Speaker 2: 38:00

You know you don't want to undergo chemotherapy if you don't have cancer, god forbid. Yeah, there's a story in my book about rita wilson, you know tom hanks's wife. Because she had breast cancer she got three opinions, I think she. One opinion said she did have it, one said she didn't, and the third said she did, so she didn't take she. And it turned out she did have it. I mean, thank god she went for the third opinion. Um, but you don't want to.

Speaker 1: 38:26

You can't be too careful with stuff like that yeah, now once again taking that time to to process and and make some good decisions, and I think all your tips are really so applicable and so practical.

Speaker 1: 38:41

I just thank you yes, yeah, go ahead I said just, I did a lot of research, I really did yeah, and realizing that you're walking into this time, time warp, so to speak, kind of the white coat syndrome that we all can get hypnotized by that, where we're just like, oh they, the doctor says, the doctor says, and just realizing that we have, you know, we're prone to that and stepping back and saying no, I'm my own advocate here.

Speaker 2: 39:13

Right, exactly, and really that second opinion is so critical and one of the things that I did learn that I thought was never occurred to me. We all see what we expect to see. So if you take the same set of symptoms to a psychologist, they'll tell you that there's stress. To a gastroenterologist, they'll tell you you probably have stomach issues. I mean, we see what we're used to seeing, so, and that's not the doctor's fault because of course you're stressed, your stomach hurts. I mean, how do you know who's right? You know, yeah, so you have to, you have to make sure.

Speaker 1: 39:49

Right, right. Such such good information and we look forward to the. The second book is is going to be called what?

Speaker 2: 39:58

Well, I temporarily it's called no, it's not all in your head. Women gaslighting and the medical community Okay, oh, perfect, perfect.

Speaker 1: 40:09

Second book to follow this one.

Speaker 2: 40:11

Yes, yes, I think it is, is because I don't think a lot. A lot of times, gaslighting is not the doctor's fault. It's a question of not knowing enough, and that's what needs. It's a structural issue that needs to be remedied. I don't think doctors are against women.

Speaker 1: 40:25

I mean, I really don't yeah, I, I know it's, it's right, um, and I well, all the, all this information will be in the show notes, by the way, and so you can find all things related to Susan and the first book she's written, and then, of course, the is that the is sideline your first book.

Speaker 2: 40:44

Yeah, yeah, but I've been writing all my life. I've been, I wrote, we were in the training film but we made films so I wrote the scripts. But this is my. It was my first book, Beautiful yeah.

Speaker 1: 40:56

Thanks. Well, I always like to finish up with this question and so sorry to hear about the passing of your husband. I know.

Speaker 2: 41:03

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 41:04

Yeah, that's gotta be a big, big change and grief, you know just no, it's been tricky, tricky, let's put it that way yeah. I always like to finish with this question, um, because the podcast is called meaning and moxie after 50. So what does that look like for you, meaning and moxie in your life? Now, at 81, you've got a lot, a lot of cool stuff going on. What does that look like for you, you know?

Speaker 2: 41:33

it. People laugh at me and I mean, except for the fact that my husband died. I mean let's put that over here, but it's a love. It's been a lovely time in my life, which obviously better when he was alive by you know 10,000%. But I mean I'm full of energy. I'm starting a second book, I exercise four days a week. I watch my diet. I mean my life has. I've got grandchildren, children I'm close to. I have two daughters. One lives across the street, one lives sort of around the corner. I mean it's just, it's a lovely, lovely time, and when Fred was alive it was particularly special. But I'm in the middle of just redoing my house a little bit and trying to make it more, more mine, I guess I'd say, and the I'm, I'm doing podcasts. I mean I'm totally active. Um, and I think that people say, oh, you know you're in your 80s, you're gonna die soon or something. Why are you starting a new book? You could die or get sick before you finish it. Well, yeah, I could, but maybe I won't, you know Right.

Speaker 2: 42:39

I mean I don't feel that way. I don't look at it that way.

Speaker 1: 42:43

No, no, and I don't think you can, because I mean, you know that's, that's the ageism that we start to run into. Absolutely and, let's face it, I could get hit by a truck at 22, you know exactly and I didn't, and maybe I'll live to 106, I don't know right, right and and and, but, check checking uh, challenging the ageism around us and challenging it in ourselves too, right?

Speaker 2: 43:11

along the way too. Well, that's what I was saying about my my arthritis in my hip. I mean, you know, I don't want everybody kept saying, don't bother to go to the doctor. Well, I don't want to be a victim of my own ageism. I really don't.

Speaker 1: 43:25

And now I am that's an old age, but all well you know, and, and, and I mean it may be. It may be something that goes away in six months as well. My thumb is stretching.

Speaker 2: 43:40

But I don't think. I think that if you're lucky, you're going to live to a ripe old age. In a certain sense, age is a privilege, because look how long I've lived. You know that's lovely.

Speaker 1: 43:51

I always like the. I don't know if you're. I'm sure you've heard of Stephen Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. He wrote many books and his last book was which I just stumbled upon about a month ago was Live Life in Crescendo. I believe is the title Live Life in Crescendo and I just, I know, you know, you just keep going and you want to, you want to leave on a high point, right? Absolutely, I love that. That should be all of our goals I.

Speaker 2: 44:21

I do have to add that my my one bow to ageism or to age, because I did. You know, I did say to my kids look, you know, I'm 80 years old or whatever, I'm starting this new book. You know, I did say to my kids look, you know, I'm 80 years old or whatever, I'm starting this new book. You know you, you got to promise to finish it posthumously, just in case I wouldn't have said that at 22,. But they will and it'll, it'll get out there, so okay.

Speaker 1: 44:45

Well, susan, it sounds like you are living a life of meaning and moxie. I am such an inspiration to to all of us as, as we look forward and I think your book is just got you got the finger on the pulse there with some of the some of the things we are challenged with in the healthcare system. So it's I think it's a real contribution.

Speaker 2: 45:06

Thank you so much. I really appreciate that was a lot of work, so thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 45:10

Yes, and look forward to hearing more about about the next one. You will Thank you, okay, well, everybody, thanks for listening and we will talk to you soon. Take care now. If this podcast was valuable to you, it would mean so much if you could take 30 seconds to do one or all of these three things Follow or subscribe to the podcast and, while there, leave a review and then maybe share this with a friend if you think they'd like it. In a world full of lots of distractions, I so appreciate you taking the time to listen in. Until next time, be well and take care.