People Pleasing in Business and Dealing with Clients

In this episode Ben and Channing talk about the struggles with people pleasing, the client follow-up and how that affects their business, how they work through it, and how they are growing and building systems and processes to help with these issues. 


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Transcript

Channing: The right thing can sometimes feel like the wrong thing if it's not you going above and beyond and just sacrificing everything for that person. But again that's that's where it comes back to it's a trauma response because that's not logical.

Ben: Welcome to Velvet Ventures

Channing: Where we talk about life, marriage, and the pursuit of entrepreneurship.

Ben: I'm Ben

Channing: and I'm Channing.

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Channing: I am a people pleaser. I heard an interesting theory the other day. They said that most people pleasing, it's more a trauma response than it is like a personality, like a character quality. It's more a trauma response. So if you've been through trauma, or if you've been in a relationship with a narcissist, you are more likely to be a people pleaser.

Ben: I think I read something that was similar to that. Yeah, it's basically a lot of times it comes from childhood trauma. So what that is, I think, varies, but that's all there.

Channing: Yeah. So I am a people pleaser. It's probably from both those situations. Um, but it can, it has been, and it still can be very difficult to operate a business because of that fact. And so I wanted to talk about as a non-people pleaser, some of your tips that you've given to me in the past. And then just kind of run through some things that I do now today to help me run more successfully and not feel as bad.

Ben: Sure.

Channing: Because I think not everybody has like, I mean, my first tip would be find somebody that's not a people pleaser and let them be your accountability partner. That'd be my first thing. So whether that's a coach, a mentor, a friend, a family member, a spouse. Somebody else that is not a people pleaser to bounce ideas off of. Cause there's some times when I'll come to you and I feel like I'm being completely just, I'm not thinking of the other person. I'm just being selfish. And you're like, no, you're being completely logical. And this is how you should handle the situation. Now the wording of those things is what we run through together.

Ben: Right.

Channing: That I think not, I think most people pleasers probably don't have that kind of person or realize that they need that kind of person in the corner.

Ben: Right. Yeah. I think it's more of a, they don't realize they need it or they choose not to have it because they don't like that confrontation of someone telling them, this is how you should do this or, you know, recommendations because I don't think it's about being bossy and telling them how they need to do it. But advising them on, you know, you're either in the right or you're in the wrong, you know, or they're in the wrong. And so how do you advise them in a way that, you know, is gonna be beneficial for everybody, but is also gonna keep you safe and keep that relationship intact.

Channing: Yeah. Well, and also, I mean, as kids we're taught to put others first a lot, you know? Like you should be thinking, you shouldn't be thinking of yourself. You need to think of others. And so when you combine that as a people pleaser, doing the right thing can sometimes feel like the wrong thing if it's not you going above and beyond and just sacrificing everything for that person. But again that's that's where it comes back to it's a trauma response because that's not logical. But so some I guess give me again or maybe it'll be new information what are the top two things that you see me people pleasing on and what would be two points that you would redirect me in those instances?

Ben: Oh, okay. Some of the things that you people please on is, you know, specifically like if a client or somebody comes and, you know, hires you or wants to work with you and they, maybe they didn't understand the contract or maybe they didn't understand, you know, the scope of work. And they kind of come back and say like, well, hey, I thought you were going to do this. And not always, but sometimes you'll, you know, go to meet their need, which is great, but you also basically it's, it kind of falls into that once you give certain people an inch, they'll take a mile and not to say that everybody's like that, not to say that maybe it, you know, they may be correct in thinking that, well, in a conversation we had, you said that I would be getting X or whatever and so it's not that they're wrong and you're right or that they're right and you're wrong. It's about managing those expectations and communicating and walking through them as thoroughly as possible. But also when things go awry, which as business owners, they will, you know, it's how do you handle that and not give them everything that they want just because they're pushing back, you know, because there are people out there who are just looking for a deal. They'll agree to something, get halfway through, and then they'll ask for more, but feel like that should fall under the original scope of work.

Channing: And one, especially with my ADHD as well, me going the extra mile. It might take eight minutes or it might take eight hours, but to me there's times when that doesn't feel any different. The eight hours feels like eight minutes. And I'll turn around and go, oh my gosh, I just lost a full day of productivity in these other areas that needed my attention just trying to appease this one person. You know, going back to the table and doing three extra edits in the contract, it only says one, right? And then still ending with wanting more, wanting more, wanting more.

Ben: Right. Well, I think that's where it can be important. And depending on what your business is, you know, I think it can be, it's very important that you figure out what your pay structure is. You know, do you complete all your work before you get paid, are you taking a deposit? Are you on a retainer? Because you know, to me, especially if you're doing a more elaborate work, especially if it's creative, because there's expectations that so subjective, right? The client has, they have this idea of what they're going to get. You have a different idea because you're in it all day. So saying, well, this is perfectly fine. This is, you know, this is great and blah, blah, but they may have had this like Pinterest-esque idea of what they would be getting. And so I think it can be important that, you know, you have your initial conversations and say like, maybe it's a paid consultation to where, you know, this will be applied to your bill, but this way, maybe you can kind of figure out like one, you get a little bit of money that is going to pay for your initial presentation work proposal, whatever. But then once that gets applied, like you've already done some of the work. So it all is fine, but at least this way you're not, you know, agreeing to this amount, you're blocking off a certain amount of time out of your monthly schedule to do this work, or you're having somebody else, um, you know, contracted to do it. And then, you know, you get halfway through or you get completely through. And they're not happy or you know, you get halfway through and they decide, Oh, okay. Well, this isn't really the direction we were thinking. Can you redo it? And then it's like, well, well, what do you do? Do you redo it? You know, or is it like, yeah, we can redo it, but you know, that's now going to take up half of your budget is now we're redoing half of the work. So I think that that's, you know, that's an important thing to help mitigate that as a people pleaser.

Channing: Yeah. I mean, for me now, Dallowry doesn't start work outside of like our CRM. We don't start work without a signed proposal and we have contracts for everything. And now that's not to say like, this is a long-term contract that requiring them to stay with us as a client, but it's a contract saying and it's on the bottom of our invoices now, depending on what type of project, but this is the exact scope of work. We are not guaranteeing results. We recommend you stay with this plan for four to six months or whatever the case may be to see results. Kind of like your doctor. Your doctor's not going to say go to the gym once. And if something doesn't happen, come back and I'll give you your money back for that recommendation. But it's so important as a people pleaser for me to have a contract because that gives me the logic behind, because the emotions can take over, to say, like, here was the scope of work. We went over the contract and you signed it. Whether you read everything in there is not my responsibility, not my obligation. I completed above and beyond the scope of work because I'm still people pleasing in the middle, but it's very clear that this is how this situation is going to work. And so it doesn't make it any more fun. Like I still really struggle sending emails because I don't like when people are not happy because I'm a people pleaser. And so when I have to send emails that say like, sorry, we're not going back to the drawing board under this original budget, or you know, here's the world, I can give you these seven other things, but your contract is non-refundable. The work has already been completed. So I'll go above and beyond, here's three other ways that I'm willing to give you your desired outcome, but we can't refund because the work has already been done.

Ben: Right.

Channing: And that is still a very tough conversation and I don't like doing it at all. It takes up a lot of mental space. But if I hadn't have had the contract, that's not even a conversation that I could have had.

Ben: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that just shows the importance of having a contract and having those elements of protection. Because if you don't have those, it's not to say that you're screwed, but it will take you think it takes up a lot of mental space now if you didn't have those things in place it would take up a lot more mental space.

Channing: Because we also record all our zoom meetings where we're meeting with clients and that's not as like a oh gotcha at the end.

Ben: Right.

Channing: Honestly we use it to review to make sure we understand what the expectation of the client is before we send out a proposal. So as we're going through and saying okay here's the game plan for this client, we review that video to make sure we're not missing anything or that we didn't hear something the first time. But as a people pleaser, sometimes I go back through those videos just to make sure that I didn't falsely portray something, to make sure that I didn't say something that I didn't deliver on and so that also helps me sleep better at night because I can know, like I'm not shoving the video in the client's face, but I can know that I did exactly what I said I was gonna do in exactly the way I said I was gonna do it. And I build according to those facts. And then I went above and beyond. And so I'm not a bad person. Because that's what it feels like when you let people down as a people pleaser. It feels like I am such a bad person. I'm so selfish, how dare I think of me and not give them everything that they want.

Ben: Yeah. Well, I think also, you know, some of this is just about holding yourself accountable. And I think that, you know, whatever that realm may be, just if it's going to the gym, you got to hold yourself accountable to go or doing X, Y, and Z, like it's holding yourself accountable. And I think that this is a very similar realm where you're holding yourself accountable to what you said you were going to do. And that may not always be the most fun thing because it's just like with parenting or something, you know, you have to follow through with the discipline.

Channing: Right.

Ben: And that's not fun, but it's a necessity. And then you just learn from it because I think that at the end of the day, you know, if you're able to say, Hey, this was the one thing that I think I wasn't as clear on here's how I'm going to solve that. And so looking at it from an objective standpoint of, you know, where was the lines of communication crossed? Where, because like, you know, you know what you're doing. And so in your mind, you see it. And so when you're explaining it, it may not be as detailed as someone who doesn't see it needs it to be. And so in your mind, you completely explained it down to the letter. But in reality, you know, whether they don't want to sound like they don't know. So they're not going to actually say like, well, this doesn't make sense. Or they don't want to ask questions because they may be somewhat people pleased to, and just want you to think like you're the best, you know? So they don't question what it is that you're doing. And so I think being able to step away and say, you know, where was the gap and what can I do next time? What can I include in a contract? What can I include in my, you know, my bid breakdown or whatever that may be, because it may seem silly to you. Cause I know for me, you know, I mean doing wood projects you wouldn't think you'd have to say like this wood is coming unfinished or this wood is coming with a clear coat because like we discussed that right but like you put that in there how it's going to be finished what's going to be visible what's going to you know how how's it going to be fastened together so i mean you really need to do all those little nuances even though as the executor you know it seems silly because it's like well that's implied right it's like well it's being conscious of when we're doing that or when we're talking to clients that we are, you know, we're explaining this to someone who possibly has no idea.

Channing: So Alex Hermosy says you should never write anything above a sixth grade reading level.

Ben: Yeah.

Channing: So you should be able to give it to a sixth grader and they should, no matter what the concept is, the sixth grader should be able to figure it out. And if they can't figure it out, then you're not explaining it simply enough. I love that because I think sometimes people use, like insurance does this a lot. They use really complicated language as a means, and sometimes it's just, this is what the word is, but then there's no explanation. And I think sometimes that's just a lack of recognition that the general population doesn't understand what this word means. And other times I think it's a superiority complex. They like that other people don't know what it means. And so you have to think of everything like that. If a sixth grader can't understand this, then I'm not explaining it detailed enough. And, you know, I've just learned to start saying, like, bear with me. I'm going to over explain this because I want to make sure that we're all clear. And I'm never shocked when somebody I think would have understood a specific concept and this is new information for them. And so it just makes me glad that I took the time to over explain it because otherwise they wouldn't have seen the value. They wouldn't have understood the proposal when that came out. Or if they'd already hired us, they wouldn't understand the scope of work that we're about to complete and why it matters.

Ben: Right. Yeah. Well, I think that a lot of people, they hide behind their, um, their knowledge of their trade or their business. They hide behind those fancy words or jargon to make them feel special and to make them seem more important than they are to maybe justify why they're charging what they charge or you know it makes them feel more exclusive so maybe they are a better choice when in reality it's people want transparency like people won't make decisions when they don't understand yeah no one says man I just I do not understand what this menu item is because it's written in french but I want to get it. No, you go to the thing that you see that's familiar.

Channing: Right. Or the same meal every single time.

Ben: Right. You know, where's the chicken tenders? And so, you know, I think that the misconception, and I think a lot of people are getting away from it, because I think with just the flow of technology and people being able to readily consume information, and people being able to share, and people are more apt to share selling inside secrets or, you know, here's how to do X, Y, and Z. I think that people are more freely giving of that information these days. And so I think people are getting better. And so I'm hopeful in seeing that up, uptick in transparency, but, you know, it, it should just come down to, can we get along? Can we work together as a client and somebody? You know, and so I think that as a people pleaser, you need to be very selective on who you work with. I know that's hard, you know, when you're starting out, but like how much harder is it to work with 10 people and half of them end up wanting refunds or half of them don't ever pay or half of them don't.

Channing: Right.

Ben: Like there's a hundred different things that they can do to hurt you. And it's like, was it worth it? Or you know it hurts more and it may seem like you're making less progress because you have less customers or less interactions but in reality it's like you know you just you need those those good customers and i know it's hard to vet in the beginning because you don't even know you know especially as a new business you probably don't know what your client is yeah you know what your most ideal client is and so

Channing: Mentorship

Ben: Yeah mentorship and a lot of this is trial and error, but also it's knowing I need to find people who I can interact with, who, you know, we can get along and I can see myself working with. If you start experiencing this, you know, constant pushback or, hey, you know, your payment has bounced twice, we need a new form of payment for your next round. And so it's like, well, that's, that could be an honest mistake, but it also could just be a sign that they're not valuing your service.

Channing: Yeah, they don't value your service.

Ben: They're not making sure that you're taking care of it because you're taking care of them by giving them, you know, what, what it is they paid for, what they're, what we've agreed to. And if they're not valuing enough to make sure that there are funds there, or at least communicating and saying like, Hey, look, we just had, had a vehicle repair on our work trucks. So we're waiting for this payment to come in from this job and so it'll be another week. Awesome. That's completely understandable. But when it's just we, you know, if we have to chase you down month over month, you just may not be a good fit right now. And maybe it's just not a good fit and we don't want to continue chasing you down. We don't want to continue taking your money if you don't value what it is that we're providing.

Channing: Yeah. I mean, most of our companies operate on a basically no follow up basis.

Ben: Right.

Channing: Like we sit down, we, you know, for like for my insurance brokerage, for instance, I'll collect all your information, I'll get you a quote. I've got some people that turn in for a quote and I reach out a few times to book, I reach out twice to book the appointment. If they don't book the appointment, there is no sense in me hounding you to sit down for me to show you the quotes that I gathered. Because that just tells me open enrollment is going to be an absolute freaking nightmare when I have to get all 15 of your people's health information. You know what I mean? And so, in the Dallowry, it's kind of the same way. We'll sit down, we'll have a consultation and sometimes those are very simple solutions and other times they're more abstract things that need to be accomplished to move the business forward. And we have a rule, you know, or not a rule, but we always say when they leave, okay, then what's the next step? We say send us your goal one, goal two and goal three. That way we can show you we can project what your proposals are going to be over the next three goal steps that you're wanting to accomplish because we want you to see what's around the corner. We don't want you to be surprised by what's coming. And there's been a few business owners that just never send it. That tells me that they don't value their growth enough. So why should I focus and lose sleep on it when they're not concerned about it? And eventually maybe they'll come back and send, hey, sorry it took so long, this has happened. Totally fine. Now we'll work and get a proposal. But I'm not gonna sit here and worry and lose sleep and follow up and follow up and I'm not going to get lost in the follow-up. Like I'm willing to fight for those who are ready to fight for themselves and I'm willing to go above and beyond in all those situations but yeah I think it it's totally okay to fire a client even though it doesn't feel like it. I just have to remind myself like it's okay to fire a client if they don't value if they don't see the value in it. The last thing I want is somebody to feel like they got screwed over by any of our companies.

Ben: Right.

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Ben: But I think that that goes to with the follow ups and stuff. You're by not pursuing them and hunting people down, like you're allowing other people to come. You know, so I think. You're giving the prospect space to think.

Channing: Right.

Ben: Well, and I just mean, you know, we were, when you're a small business owner, you're typically like when you're meeting with a client, subconsciously or consciously, you're thinking, they have a dollar value on them.

Channing: Right.

Ben: Like regardless, if you think about that or not, like a dollar value is sitting in front of you and you're thinking already, like, how am I going to use that in the business? How is this going to help move this forward? What, you know, what is this transaction, you know, going to allow the business to do? Like, what can I do for them in return? What is this going to do on our side? And so I think it's always hard when someone doesn't follow up because you feel like you just lost that money. But in reality, It's the same time for other people.

Channing: Right.

Ben: You're making space by not chasing them for the right people to come. Well, I think a lot of follow-up nowadays, it's turned into a manipulation tactic more than it has a genuine reminder for the client.

Channing: Right. And so, like, one of the things that we did with the insurance brokerage is we automated a follow-up. And so, after the meeting, I tell people, like, here's the options. We do have deadlines based on the effective date that you've chosen. So I'm going to email you all this stuff over with the deadlines that we have to meet. Otherwise, we have to re-quote most of the time. And most of the time, that means it can go up or down. It's very slight typically, but you're going to see a difference in these proposals that I've set. So in two weeks, my computer is going to reach out and just remind you if we haven't heard from you. But you don't feel like you have to answer. And the message even says, this is the computer. We just want to remind you, don't feel like you have to respond. We just wanted to make sure that you had one last touch point. And so they know it's not me bugging and expecting a yes or a no. I tell them, if it's a no, you just don't have to tell me. Because I know some. It's very hard for me to say no. And so I never want somebody to feel manipulated or pressured by any of our companies because I know how hard it can be for somebody to say no. And then just ruins that relationship. Next time you see that person, you're like, I don't wanna be there.

Ben: Yeah. They may say yes now, but it's actually a no. And so, you know, it's more about providing, I think, a clear understanding of value. Because, you know, I mean, I want a Rolls Royce, but like, I can't justify the value because the value is not there for me right now. Or I want, you know, this whole home automation system, just because do I need it? Like, no, but I want it. And so I think by creating that value and finding what is important to them, you know, cause I mean, I have clients too, where on the home maintenance side that they want these things, but there's issues that stand there. It could be a price thing. It could be a, you know, it didn't get explained in the way that it's not just a, this product, but this product is also going to help with these things. And so I think sometimes it's, it's not just about getting a yes or no answer, but it's about creating enough value to them where they don't have to, you know, sit there and think about it and think about it and think about it. And then you're like, Hey, just want to follow up and make sure like, do you still want to do this? And it's like, I mean, that's just lowering your level of expertise and your credibility because you're just chasing.

Channing: I just live in this world where I believe that everything that's supposed to happen will happen. And I realize I'm not the one in control. And so it's silly for me to sit here and just follow up, follow up, follow up, follow up. You know, like, we have an offer on one of our companies and we're waiting on the other side to come back to the negotiation table like, I don't need that company to go away. That company runs itself and it continues to produce, you know, 15% more, 20% more, month over month over month with about two hours, maybe four hours of my week. I don't need it to go away. I don't need this offer. So why would I sit here and chase it down and take up mental space thinking about it when I need that mental space to focus on the companies that we're currently growing? Like, would it be great? Absolutely. Would that ownership take care of those people and my clients? And would it be awesome? Maybe. But I won't know if it's what God has planned if I sit there and I force it.

Ben: Right.

Channing: And that's not to say you're not supposed to go out and work for things. God's very clear that you're supposed to work hard for His glory. But that doesn't mean push and push and push and manipulate and follow up your clients to death. That is not what work hard means.

Ben: Right. Well, and I think there's also a lot to be said about providing space for the blessings. If you stay busy doing follow ups, you're probably not doing a lot of new reach outs. And so, and I think sometimes, you know, we're called to rest and, and sometimes in that rest is where the ideas come from the, you know, you may just be sitting there and saying, you know, I just, I don't, I don't feel like working right now, or I want to take a TV break or a reading break. And then you finally you took a break from pursuing or from being in it and, you know, two phone calls or two texts and saying, Hey, we want to move forward with this or Hey, oh man, I totally forgot, you know, that they were talking to them three weeks ago and stuff. And so, you know, we're just current clients have more and more stuff. And so I think that being diligent and being active and working and sowing seeds is important but if you don't take a step back and and let those plants grow and you just keep watering them and watering them and water them like they're not going to grow right but you need to get out of the way and let the sun hit them to let the seeds grow after you've done your part and so I think that sometimes we just need to get out of our own way yeah and let

Channing: Yeah the insurance company actually has grown more, more steadily. I won't say like massive scaling, but it has been more steady in the last year with me stepping back and just letting the automations do their thing and trusting I set it up properly and focusing on the things that I call focused to. That has grown more steadily this year than it did last year with 18 months. And last year, it was me working hard, putting in 80 hours a week sometimes and getting up at 3 a.m. because I can't sleep and working all the way until 9 p.m. And so now it's just me trusting that the work, those seeds that I planted are finally coming to fruition. I don't have to force them. I know is morally right and ethical in the way that I believe that I'm supposed to run that company in the way that I'm supposed to treat those clients. And as long as I do what's right and I just keep doing what's right, it's going to keep being the blessing that it's supposed to be. And that might not mean that it's national and it's multi-million dollar company. That might just mean that, you know, this pays our living.

Ben: Right.

Channing: It takes care of us. So at the end of the day, we get to be risky in all these other places because we know this basket, this parachute is gonna be there when the bills need to be paid.

Ben: Yeah Well, I think people find it more They're a little more apt to probably recommend you or your business when you are not a pushy consistent pain in the butt. You know, I mean, if I have people who reach out to me constantly and stuff like they may have done good work. But hey, I'm just I'm just gonna tell you do like, I'll give you the number to so and so but they will be on you and they will text you constantly or call you or whatever. So if that's not something that you want, like don't even don't even go down that road.

Channing: And so I think that it's important to stay in front and I think that's where the social media site comes in too where that's how you stay in front of them. We're very pushy on social and I say pushy as in we are present. We are very present on social media. We average about nine posts a day for dowry and I mean honestly with BHM I've really not been posting like I should. I post what I'm reading now that's what I post about. Which is I'm doing a book a week challenge this year. So I'm posting at least once a week, typically on DHM. Or if I see a story in the news about health insurance, or like right now I have a client who I'm helping fight a claim. And so sometimes I'll walk people through that as well. But outside of that, it's just me genuinely showing up. It's not necessarily the company showing up to buy from people, they don't want to buy from the company. And so showing who we are, showing what we are like outside of business, what we believe in, that's what's going to get people to be your super fans or to be loyal, loyal, loyal and refer a ton of business.

Ben: Right. Well, I think especially whenever you're referring out of a posture of just genuine wanting to versus am I going to get a referral fee out of this? Am I going to get something out of it? So I think that just being diligent and inconsistent in like your behavior, your motives, because you know, if it gets towards the end of the month and you're trying to, you know, trying to make those quotas or trying to hit that number and you become more pushy, then you may, people may avoid you come the last half of the month. Or, you know, you get paid the first of the month from your company or, you know, you did well last month. So, you know, oh, so and so is a lot of fun to be with for the first couple weeks of the month, but then once it starts getting down to the wire, don't go hang out with so-and-so.

Channing: Nobody else cares if you're trying to qualify for convention.

Ben: Right. Yeah, no one cares if you're trying to hit that bonus. Yeah. But anyway, I mean, yeah, so I believe that getting back to the people pleasing. All that being said, I mean it's so important to vet who you're working with. I think it's important to get an accountability partner of some kind.

Channing: Contacts, contracts, contracts.

Ben: And yeah, I mean if you are someone who is, you know, controversy averse, do yourself a favor take excellent notes or record your conversation and get contracts. And it's not rude or manipulative to tell someone. I mean, there's been times whenever we'll set a phone or something on the table and hit record and say, hey, we're going to record this mainly so we can just go back and take more notes because I want to be present in this conversation so I'm not going to take a lot of notes. We want to look at each other eye to eye and we want to have this meeting. I will be playing this video back or this audio so that way, I can then take notes based on that. And so I think that going about it in that way and then storing that and just keeping that creative file, that this is this client hears.

Channing: And never throw it back in their face. It should just be used so that you can review what you said.

Ben: Right.

Channing: Like that's the only purpose that we use it for. We use it for, you know, going back and reviewing notes that we didn't take because we like to be present. Or if there's a situation that I'm struggling with and I feel like I'm being a bad person, it's helpful for me to go back and listen to and say, okay, what I said, I'm doing. I'm living up to my word because that's what I want to make sure always, that I'm living up to my word.

Ben: Yeah.

Channing: Yeah,

Ben: and so anyway, and I think that you know, at the end of the day, do those things to protect yourself, to help you not have to get into those situations to begin with. And second, that accountability partner should be there to help. And this could be a different person because you need to find someone with kinds of skills and that you trust to be able just to talk about it and just say, this is how I'm feeling. I feel attacked or I'm feeling like a failure. Like a failure or like I'm manipulating these clients or like I'm letting someone down and you need that person who you value their opinion.

Channing: Can look at it objectively.

Ben: Yeah and look at it and just say like you know hopefully they're the kind of person then you all have that relationship where you know they can tell you like you are being irrational or hey you know you really need to, you're completely justified, but let's be gracious about it.

Channing: Right.

Ben: And let's just worry that let's play devil's advocate. And let's say like, maybe they're looking at it from this angle. Could you see where maybe that's where they're getting this information from or where they believe that they, they are in the right or, you know, things of those natures. And so I think that, you know, having somebody who can, who can be honest with you is going to be very beneficial in your business because it's going to happen. You know, and I mean, I'm, no, I'm not necessarily a people pleaser, but I never like anyone to be unhappy with a service that we've provided. Um, but yeah, I mean, I just, I typically don't let it take up mental space after the fact. Um, and so, you know, I think that having somebody empathetic towards understanding that they may not be a people pleaser, but they can understand why it would bother the people pleaser or why it matters to them. I think it's very important because how long can you keep that up? I've seen, I've worked with people, for people who are people pleasers, and it's always in my experience, they've always been a scramble to get that last dollar or to get this last bit because they give away everything and because there's no structure there or because there's no guidelines for like, hey, we don't refund this or yes, we refund it. But a lot of times people open their mouth and they talk before they either consult with someone who maybe the business partner, maybe their accountant you know, but they're just like, yeah, we'll get you a refund next week. You may not have the means to refund next week. And now you just put yourself in a position as a people pleaser. You thought you were being helpful by telling them a date, but what would have been the most helpful is yes, you know, we will, we will, we'll get you a refund issued. However, I need to talk to my account. I need to talk to my so-and-so and then I'll get back to you and let you know. Because it may be 30 days. Like there's nowhere unless you, you know, someone messed up and put all refunds are due within seven days, you know, or something of that nature. There's no law that I'm aware of that states like, if you say that you're going to issue a refund, it has to be within this timeframe, you know? And so, I mean, as long as there's nothing in writing, don't feel like, you know, you have, well, I'll get that to you in 48 hours. Why? Just because you want to please them and you want to like, I couldn't make you happy over here. So I'm going to make you happy with a refund. You think that's going to change anything about them? Like, Hey, they're not great to work with, but they will issue a refund real fast. No. And so I think that having someone to also hold you accountable in that area and just saying like, just sometimes you just need to keep your mouth shut. Just stop talking, you know, and don't tell people, don't promise deadlines, don't promise when you can issue a refund or how soon you can have something done before talking to people, especially if other people are going to be helping you in doing the task. So because then, you know, they may have had something.

Channing: It's like promising what a renewal rate is going to be when you don't actually know. Guaranteeing a specific interest profit when you really don't know.

Ben: Yeah. Well, I mean, I've worked with people that you know, they would sit there and be talking with the client. The client, you know, I'd really love to have this done in the next couple weeks. And it's, oh yeah, yeah, we can get that done. And then as soon as we walk out, it's, oh my gosh, there's just another thing on the thing on the plate to do it. Oh my gosh, like we're already so swamped. Then why did you just agree to a timeline without discussing anything? Or they come back and, you know, we have so and so wants this done in two weeks. And it's like, well, we already have all this other stuff booked out. Why are you told them? That's your fault. You know, and so that people pleasing side can come out in so many areas and and typically in my experience the people pleaser gets themselves into more situations that will give their people pleasing anxiety levels such a raise by their own doing.

Channing: Right. I typically try if it's a situation where I know my people pleasing button's been pushed. I typically try and take at least a day if not two so that my anxiety of not pleasing, like the expectation of me not pleasing them and the anxiety that comes with that can lower because it's going to dissipate over time. And so even though sending the email or making the phone call or having that conversation still might suck. It doesn't hurt as bad or it's just different because now I don't have the anxiety and the disappointment at the same level. The anxiety's kind of come down a little bit. The disappointment is still just as high. But I don't have all of that emotion driving behind it.

Ben: Right. Well, if you're not, you know, it probably helps with not creating that neural pathway because when you're, you know, when you get news, say, from somebody who's not happy, your cortisol level is going to shoot up. Well then if you take immediate action, any time your cortisol levels shoot up, you are going to feel this need to action. And so by giving yourself time to let those chemicals dissipate, you're not going to have this immediate knee jerk reaction that says, someone's not happy, I have to fix it. I have to answer. I have to do something.

Channing: I make my soul exit fight or flight before I respond.

Ben: Right. Because the client's also gonna get treated better and the email's gonna be worded properly and there's so many positive things that come.

Channing: And what's funny is the people pleasing side of me says, well, how dare you wait two days to respond to that email when you already knew what you wanted to say day one. But I can't treat them how I want to treat them when I'm in fight or flight mode.

Ben: Yeah, well, and sometimes it's like you know, I mean even you've read me emails before when you haven't even read the whole thing yet

Channing: Yeah

Ben: You get halfway through it and then you just get triggered into this This panic of like they're not happy and then it's like well, what what they say about the bottom I haven't finished it, you know, and so it's it's having the discipline to to get all the way through the problem and then to allow yourself time to process because it may not be as bad as initially you thought, you know, and, and then having someone else read it in a different tone because you may be reading in a tone of defensiveness and in reality, they were just trying to be helpful with feedback, you know? And so, you know, it's just, it's important to have those kinds of checks and balances that you'll learn as you do it. But I think so much of what we're doing now. And I mean, you and I are, on it and I'm extremely into learning how to be self-aware you know self-aware of how am I acting what are my reactions right now how do I want to react versus how do I react and you know just being mindful of understanding that hey you're over here because you know these few things aren't going right or they're not going how you think they should be going and just being aware that you know this is a this is a thought this is not reality and so while it may feel like reality it feels like it because this is what my mind is obsessed with and so it will it'll make it happen if i can continue to obsess about it. So how do I get out of this? How do I reframe what it is I'm going through? And so I just, I, I believe that doing some inward self observance and looking at, you know, what are my behaviors when I get these kinds of responses or these kinds of replies and then just what kind of checks and balances can you put in place? What can you do? Do you just tell yourself, I never respond to those kinds of emails within 24 hours? You know, and so I think that by doing that, it's gonna give you the space to start working on how you're gonna respond, how you're gonna deal with those situations. So you're not just knee jerk reaction out of, someone's not happy, I have to make it better because it's not always your responsibility when someone's unhappy. And sometimes, I mean, people suck. I'm so, you know, they're not always deserving of your, of your input, you know, when they're not happy. Like sometimes people are just unhappy. Just let them be, you know, let them self-soothe.

Channing: Yeah. I think that'll work. Thanks for tuning in.

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