Audio's Rule of Thirds

In this episode,  "Audio’s Rule of Thirds", Stew Redwine's guest is Mike Jensen, CEO of Rhapsody Voices and they discuss how brands can best connect with hosts, what the ingredients of a persuasive host read ad are, and rating some recent movers and shakers in the podcast space form Magellan.ai’s May 2024 report -  MeUndies, Rakuten, IBM, and monday.com. 

Audio is replete with threes: first, there’s production: voice-over, sound design, and music. Then, there’s the classic story structure of beginning, middle, and end. Of course, there are also timeless rhetorical appeals: pathos, logos, and ethos. And with Rhapsody Voices, Mike Jensen, focuses on three things to "deliver on the connectivity between the host, the sponsors, and the audience.” 

Mike's three suggestions for CAO's who want to make the ads work better than ever?

1. Authenticity is key: Authenticity in host-read ads is paramount. A host should be able to demonstrate their genuine connection to the product—otherwise, why else are they reading it?
   
   
2. Simplicity: For Mike, authenticity goes hand-in-hand with simplicity. For example, if a Starbucks ad has 20 potential value propositions, the host shouldn’t try to highlight all of them; instead, they should key into one or two things, like the new summer drinks and caffeine-free options. That way, the host can expand on what they genuinely like about the products.
   
   
3. Clear call to action: Everyone knows an ad works best when it has a call to action. However, not all CTAs are equal. Triple down on having a clear, concise, and persuasive CTA, and triple-check the copy to make sure it’s solid. After all, a read is only as good as its copy.

Special thanks to Benztown Studio for providing the space to record this episode at their recording studio in Glendale, CA.

Transcript

Stew (00:00):
Hit it. Ad Infinitum is the only podcast solely focused on audio ads, advertising the creative who make them and are the latest thinking that informs them how the space is evolving. And my favorite part, a roundup of recent audio ads and analysis by yours truly ad campaign Stu Redwine, VP Creative at Oxford Road and each episode's guest. This is season two episode six of Ad Infinitum and this episode's title is Audio's Rule of Thirds, discussing how brands can best connect with hosts, what the ingredients of a persuasive host read ad are, and rating some recent movers and shakers in the podcast space from Magellan AI may report. Our guest is Mike Jensen, a pioneer in the podcasting world with his company Rhapsody Voices. Welcome to the show Mike. Thanks

Mike (00:47):
So much for having me Stu.

Stew (00:49):
Thanks for being here. So as the brains behind Rhapsody Voices, Mike is shaking up how creators and sponsors connect and he's no rookie with over two decades in digital media including significant roles at a OL and Stitcher. Mike knows his stuff when it comes to growing audiences and creating profitable content. And Rhapsody Voices was founded by a team of digital natives with deep experience at the top five podcasting networks, Mike and his team are building a company to address the challenges facing creators at both the big networks and the all-In-one smaller shops, monetization is one of the biggest challenges facing creators across all platforms. So they lean in hard on sales and deliver value for both sides of the marketplace creators and their shows as well as the brands and agencies on the other side of the table. Mike, in your own words, what sets Rhapsody Voices apart? Like why Rhapsody Voices?

Mike (01:45):
I think that when you talk about Rhapsody Voices, we really wanna deliver on the mission of the connectivity between the host sponsors and the audience. So it's that connectivity and understanding each show and the ecosystem and how to have authenticity across those three participants is the core to us having success for all three, right? An enjoyable experience for the audience, a good experience for the creator and sponsor success.

Stew (02:10):
And is it that you saw forces in the marketplace that were like moving counter to this or it's like how did you see there was white space here?

Mike (02:17):
Well, I can answer this question by dating myself a little bit since we had the intro and it's like I've been doing this a long time. You know, it goes back even before specifically audio, which has been my passion for 20 years, where we've tried to make sure at the kind of the foundation, the beginning of the internet, like how do we make great content and sponsors, you know, participate together and make for success, right? I think we've seen that happen online with the evolution of video. And I think in audio we've seen what is in talk quite an innovation, right? From what had been sort of traditionally moved into a few select pieces of content in AM radio, right? And now we have this evolution of so much different types of, and comedy and sports and what we're seeing is, hey, with that kind of evolution, you've really gotta evolve in terms of how you're connecting the audience, the host and the sponsors, right? And so you've gotta look at every show and recognize what needs to happen for that connectivity to be in place.

Stew (03:16):
And when you see like programmatic and the other tools that are in place that are like all driving efficiency, you know what you're talking about kind of very much, it lines up with something that we talk about at Oxford Road, which is like the intentional inefficiency of audio with the intimacy of audio that like you're not talking about set it and forget it campaigns here you're not talking about Hey, I'm just gonna make it really easy to just effortlessly buy this ad and plug it in programmatically into a bunch of shows. Like you're talking about a concierge like high touch approach to this stuff.

Mike (03:52):
And one of our messages of what we're looking to deliver is boutique at scale. Meaning that we know we want to deliver to a wide audience a premium experience. But in order to do that effectively, you really want to take into account all the aspects of what boutique at scale means, which is delivering on each of what boutique means. And so I often say to people around Rhapsody in terms of like what we're gonna be able to do, it's like a boutique hotel. You don't need seven pools and seven restaurants. You need one great restaurant, one great bar, one great experience. And that's what we're trying to do in each instance with a show in the sponsors and that deliverable to the audience.

Stew (04:31):
That's one of the rule of thirds of audio as we are prepping for this show. That's what kept coming up is that in the world of audio, as in life, things often come in threes. We've got the pillars of audio production, voiceover, sound design and music. There's a classic storytelling structure of beginning, middle, and end what it was like, what happened, what it's like now. And we can't forget the timeless rhetorical appeals from Aristotle's rhetoric of pathos, logos and ethos and like you just said in audio the host, the audience and the sponsor and bringing all of those together and we continue to see more data and research in the space like you're talking about, you know, as it's evolved from you know, talk radio to what it is today. So special shout out here to Olivia Gervin, our junior media analysts at Oxford Road for recapping the recent sounds profitable ad nauseum report for 2024 that details some current trends in how audience perceive ads.

(05:28):
And I just wanted to talk about a couple with you Mike. So some key observations from the study listeners don't find interesting, funny or novel ads fatiguing, okay? So you know, shocker. But if it's interesting, it's funny, it's novel, you know I'm gonna stay tuned in. I know I'm like that, but that's dangerous focus group of one ad nauseum study found that as well. They find a lack of variety in form and repetition of the same brand message tiresome. So it's kind of the flip side of that 41% are tired of hearing generic announcer red ads and host red ads are preferred and we continue to see that host Red ads are preferred tired of hearing the same old thing over and over. And like it said, 41% are tired of hearing generic announcer red ads. And what I hear in this is like not putting in the effort hearing the same message over and over something that's not funny or interesting or novel.

(06:18):
You know, that's what happens a lot of times when people are doing audio at scale, but what you're talking about is boutique at scale. How do we still make it special? And one last little bit from the study is notably, and this is what Tom Webster over at Sounds Profitable pulled out as his main observation is that listeners expect to hear three ads per podcast episode. So another one of audio's rule of thirds. But what I think is interesting about that is we expect to hear those ads, right? Unless you're paying not to, you're expecting to hear three ads per podcast. So how do we make them interesting, funny or novel because that's what people want to listen to. So I wanted you to break down your audio Trinity for us, like we were talking just before the show, what are the three things you emphasize with talent when connecting with brands and to give the best host reads?

Mike (07:04):
I think when we are having a conversation with the creator, which is where it starts, oftentimes they'll say, well what's most important, right? Like I'm not from the media side, right? I'm a content creator and we say what's most important is that authenticity. But from there we do break it into what I would call three different core pillars, right? It's people, process and product, which fits back into what we talked about as far as boutique at scale and that connectivity when it's audience content host. And so think about the people, you just mentioned something earlier, the host, you've gotta have an understanding of what we're looking to do, right? If you try to fake it till you make it, you're not gonna have something interesting or novel, right? And so there are a lot of talented content creators who think they'll be able to do that, but their audience came because they believe in the show and a lot of times they'll read into that.

(07:57):
And so if we're talking about people we need to start with, we need to be prepared and we're gonna help you, right? In terms of that deliverable for the sponsor. And then the other one that's important is the product side. So the product side is important because a lot of times creator will be handed a lot of information regarding that sponsor and it's important that we take on some ownership at Rhapsody Voices to help with all of that content that's related to that sponsor ask around the uniqueness of the product and the many different types of product or service advantages it has and help make that more concise for the content creator so that they can deliver on that sponsorship in an effective way that they feel comfortable, right? And that's related to the product. Right? And then the third one, you mentioned a little bit about this but process, when I say you mentioned a little bit about it, I think about what you were saying with sort of like the non hosts ad ag nauseum.

(08:55):
Have you? Well that's related to where the ad placement is, how often it's heard it's length, right? And so when we think about that, we look at each show and go, okay, how is it consumed? Where should we put the ads? Is this content creator tend to be a little bit longer form with the way that they do the read or are they very concise with their ad read? And that may play a role in like how we do the ad placement so that beyond the Tom Webster research that indicates that there's going to be three ads and they accept that in the show, right? It's how do we deliver those ads and being effective understanding that show in placing 'em in ways where the audience is finding it comfortable and acceptable and maybe even welcoming, right? And to add to that, I think when you have a creator that kind of understands the process what's happening, they'll be quick to remind their audience that those sponsors are helping support the show, which is really powerful, right? And so that's the threes that we go through when we look at how to make the best sponsorships happen for a show.

Stew (09:55):
And seeing this come to life with like some of your shows like the Jim Cornett experience, I know his air checks are off the map on the stuff he does creatively and how long he'll go. I mean that's where I see all of this, you know, coming together. I mean what's that like working with him and unlocking that magic?

Mike (10:14):
I think it starts with the people and when you think about the hosts of the Jim Cornett show, Jim and Brian, they make sure to save every sponsorship read they do because they look at all of it as branded content. So for them they're looking at each sponsor being an extension of what they do for the show. And so in those cases the customization comes in, right? We don't run those sponsor ads back to back like we do in some other shows because of the way that they execute those reads. Whereas if all of a sudden they came to me and said we're gonna do a narrative podcast where it's gonna be storytelling, we might make an adjustment and say well we don't want as many ads breaks in that kind of show so we would change it. But Jim and Brian aren't gonna be doing a true crime podcast coming up. What they do is fantastic engaging and they extend it over in the sponsorship reads. And so what we allow them to do is make sure that they have space for each ad position to go deep with that sponsor because the audience lives it and loves it, right? And it's magic as you said, but we need to conform to how that magic happens. What I

Stew (11:19):
Like that you're intentionally making the space for it, like you're talking about with the people, the product and the process piece. What I mean is that in the early days of podcasting, and I've talked about this before, it felt like and can still kind of feel like a lottery ticket winner where it's like, oh yeah, the CPM is X and it's gonna be a host red ad depending on the host of the show. But just sort of in general there'd be this underlying thought of like they might go long, he or she might sing a song or magic could happen as opposed to going Hey we know this talent delivers magic so we're going to thoughtfully and intentionally structure this deal in such a way that that is exactly what's gonna be delivered as opposed to put your money in the machine, pull the lever. And maybe that'll happen, maybe it won't happen.

Mike (12:06):
Well is this a portion of the show where we can do spoiler alert because we had this conversation about what is possible and how we might innovate further. And I think the lottery ticket, maybe we make that more of a deliverable that is purchased rather than the luck of the draw. And I think it's a great idea to look at that. Now in the case of like a Jim Cornett show, I don't think you undo those longer ad reads for it. What you do is you say, hey, we wanna do more customization. And so we've had the dialogue not necessarily to shorten their reads, but to bring a sponsorship into a tent pole activity that's happening in wrestling culture and make that a deliverable with like a bit more power of how the sponsor is integrated into those key segments and happenings that are going on. And so we're working on that now. Whereas I think for some other shows there should be a longer read opportunity, right? And then we can rework the ad structure around that longer read. So you know, maybe if I had done this show earlier, Rhapsody Voices would be making more money <laugh>, but maybe we just start from here still and we give you credit.

Stew (13:08):
Hey I think that sounds great. As I often say, it's the teamwork that makes the dream work <laugh> and I wanna see podcasts continue to evolve and like it doesn't have to turn into a whole bunch of breaks that are chockfull of a bunch of dynamically insert. Not that like dynamically inserted or program like the technology's never the thing. Just like let's just talk about the end listening experience podcast does not on demand audio does not have to become what broadcast audio became like it does not, right? Full stop. But it could.

Mike (13:37):
It could. I think we are hearing in the marketplace that it's less accepted by the audience. I think that, you know, you can't have necessarily the same ad load you have in broadcast radio which has the power of people kind of popping in and out. And that's not against broadcast radio 'cause they provide a structure where you can pop in and out for five or 10 minutes. And I would argue that for a lot of podcasts you can't easily do that, right? But I think we've gotta be respectful of what podcast leans into, which is like a heavy engagement with that listener and you can't have as many ad reads as you do in broadcast radio. I think the other element here around the sponsor and podcasting is one in which you think about how do you best deliver in about a host and a non hosts.

(14:20):
Because this session isn't to be like host read or nothing, right? It's hey, I think that there are non-cost reads that can be impactful. We know I was listening to your show earlier with another guest, right? And talking about how a familiar voice becomes a welcome voice, right? And I know that from Spotify, right? My DJ X is always in my ear and I'm kind of used to him now. At first I didn't know if I liked him. Now I'm okay with him, right? He's kind of form and fuzzy. But there's some limitations there right now if DJX comes on and raids the State Farm ad four times in a row, I don't want to hear that, right? And so we've got some issues around frequency capping or where those ads are placed, how many are in a row, you know, and those are things that are really hurting more programmatic, non-cost I think. And I think that frankly the host read does guarantee you a better experience in most cases. And Rapley voices needs to deliver on that. We're providing a premium experience for sponsors, they're paying a premium rate usually for host reads and we need to deliver on that.

Stew (15:20):
And all the research shows that it does deliver better than the non hosts read. And I think there's a huge, it depends piece of this, you know, having done this, been at Oxford Road since before the beginning and been doing this now over a decade, it's like what I think of more than anything is we have to back up and like look at our business goals and our communication goals and then go, where am I trying to hit people in the funnel, upper funnel, mid funnel, bottom funnel. Like what kind of mouse trap am I designing? Or if those kind of mechanical predatory metaphors don't work, what kind of relationship am I trying to build with the listener or the consumer, whatever it is, first principles like then from there you can determine how best to execute. And like if you're new to audio and you're trying to get a lot of bottom funnel action, well if you're in a lean in medium, having the host give a full throated personal first person endorsement makes a ton of sense.

(16:19):
Now if you're in a different state as an advertiser and you're trying to do stuff that's more top funnel or mid funnel, maybe you do shorter units that are produced and you're just trying to remind people, sometimes I think people will go down to like a 30 produced and is a 30 produced, like you gotta really think about and maybe do some testing on you might be better served doing like a 15 if all you're really trying to do is remind, then why spend 30 seconds reminding when you could spin 15 or on series XM for instance, like we've done these six second bumpers, you know, different things like that. There's lots of different mechanics and tactical approaches to how you want to show up in audio. The question is like how am I measuring success? How long do I have to get there? And then that can help me decide on what the best approach is. And it by no means is one size fits all. And simultaneous to that there is something that's just incredibly persuasive and the data and the science and the research backs it up in that voice that's in people's ears that they trust and listen to for hours a day telling them I use this and you should too.

Mike (17:21):
Yeah, I think one of the things you hit on is like in terms of the deliverable, what is the deliverable, right? Like in podcasting we have a lot of, you know what I would call challenger brands coming into that space, right? Where this is something that maybe hasn't been offered to the consumer in the same way before and that takes a deeper education, right? And so that's where host reads can be really powerful, right? With that personal experience that the host is sharing longer form a deeper touch in terms of the product description. I think that's really powerful. Now, if you're talking about maybe something like a upcoming movie or show, I can see where maybe if you're running for an upcoming movie or show that's a comedy in comedy podcast, that feels like an easier lift, right? It's like, okay, you know, I might be able to do a shorter format like a 30 or maybe I don't need a host read, right?

(18:11):
I just need to align with audiences that obviously love this type of content. We do that all the time in cross marketing campaigns. We have a lot of success with, you know, essentially usually 32nd pre or mid tune in campaigns to help promote our shows on other networks, right? 'cause we're mapping to where those audiences are like audiences, right? And educating them on tuning into the show. So it depends on what that deliverable is, right? I mean, I'll even go deeper on that in my own opinion. I was explaining something the other day around like Starbucks, I can understand why Starbucks wouldn't necessarily feel like they need hosts read endorsements for the latte that I've gotten occasionally at Starbucks for years. But if they have new products, new services, new food items, right? Or seasonal item, I could see where a host read deeper dive into that product or service less familiar for somebody who's been at Starbucks before is far more of a opportunity, right? And probably a better experience

Stew (19:05):
Completely. I mean I know for me, I was just at Starbucks the other day and they have these new summer drinks that are colorful and look appealing to me. I'm like, I feel like I'm standing at the ice cream truck <laugh>, you know? Yeah. But I also have like I'm a creature of habit man and I'm like, I don't know, I don't know if I would like that or not. And it's like, is that even caffeinated? I'm not even sure. So it's like, yeah, that's a great example of they've got new menu items, have the hosts talk about those menu items to try to get people to try out that new thing because it ended up, it was delicious and I loved it. And you better believe that if there was a host that I listened to all the time that said like, yeah, you know, Starbucks has got these new summer drinks and I just tried it out. That would definitely, that's gonna stick for sure. And thinking of working directly with the host to bring it like really down to the, you know, the street level to make it really practical for the CA's listening just with some simple steps that they can take right away with their copy that they're putting before hosts. Can you take me through how you boil down copy for hosts into a list of surprise, surprise three things.

Mike (20:08):
So I think that we wanna make sure that authenticity is the key, right? So in order to have that, you've gotta simplify things a little bit. So what is the thing that calls the attention of that host where they're like, oh well I didn't know for example, as a host, if they were doing Starbucks, right? Oh I don't drink caffeine. Well what about all these new drinks? Like let's focus on that one experience you had and why you liked it, right? There are 20 different value propositions for Starbucks. We're identifying this one for you, for this host read. And that'll give you the freedom to really express what you liked about it with authenticity, right? And simplify that related to the product. Then there's some key process elements that they need to touch on. There's going to be, as we know on the media side, an important call to action.

(20:54):
They can't miss this. You would think, okay, well people know that, but you've gotta highlight it, right? And I would say the pros, especially, you know, folks have been doing this for a long time as leaders like Oxford Road and your agency, you know, to call those out in the copy. But it's really important to double check the copy, make sure the host has everything together around the copy and the key points for that call to action, including any coupon codes or special offers and that they get that, right? 'cause no matter how good that read is, you've gotta have those process elements down, right? The

Stew (21:24):
Way I'm hearing that is the three things are simplify. Find the personal tie in with the host and make sure you've got the call to action. Like if you're gonna just boil it down to make it really easy.

Mike (21:34):
Exactly. And it seems simple, and this is not a knock on our many sponsors, brands and services, but their jobs are designed for them to find all the different value propositions of their product or service. And that oftentimes ends in five or six pages of copy and that's too much for the host. And it's not that they didn't do their job because they're like, hey, there's a million things we do right for our consumer, but the host doesn't work there. And

Stew (21:59):
To your point, like a highlight of my career is working with Boling branch sheets when they came into audio. It's teamwork that makes the dream work. A couple of things that we identified with that team over there and our team was, you know, these sheets get softer and softer over time. They're sheets used by three US presidents and we really boiled the copy down really, you know, concisely followed these things, the personal tie in bit. I can remember a read with Rush Limbaugh where he talked about the feeling of like the way the ad started was he's like, you know, at the end of the long day you take a shower and you slide into a crisp clean set of Boland branch sheets. There's nothing like that feeling. And it's like he came up with that man. To me that's a perfect example of what you're talking about.

(22:39):
Like if you could get that for every product, it wasn't the copy, it was his experience. And did we have those other points, you know, loved by three US presidents softer? Yes. Did we have a clear call to action with a great discount? Absolutely. That personal tie in though of that theater of the mind, of that experience and like kind of even feeling it yourself of like, ugh, clean set of sheets in of a long day, put in a hard day's work, took a shower climbing. There's nothing like that feeling. If you haven't felt this for yourself, you gotta get a set of these sheets. That's the kind of moments you're talking about.

Mike (23:09):
Yeah, and I would argue like there's a point of authenticity in there, like Rush Limbaugh, how many hours, how many days in a row being on the air every day. Like there's authenticity, him talking about, wow, the day is over and a nice pair of sheets, get some freaking rest. I gotta do this again tomorrow. It's pretty awesome.

Stew (23:25):
Absolutely. That's an example of what you're talking about. So keep it simple, find that personal tie in, get your call to action. Okay, so now we're gonna get into grading some ads. We've got four advertisers from Magellan's May 20, 24 rankings. So each month Magellan AI analyzes the trailing month's data to uncover the top podcast by spend and change in spend. And we are gonna be listening to spots from the top four movers and shakers. So these are advertisers who spending increased from April, 2024 to May, 2024. And those four advertisers are MeUndies, Rakuten, i, IBM, and monday.com. And by the numbers MeUndies went from $106,000 in April to $750,000 in May. Rakuten went from $150,000 in April to $742,000 in May. I IBM went from $41,000 in April to $550,000 in May and monday.com went from $20,000 in April to just over half a million dollars in May. So just to get an idea of their level of spend and how they're showing up in audio. So let's take a listen. You ready to jump in?

Mike (24:33):
All right, jumping in with Magellan. I'm a long time client of Magellan, so appreciate what they do. Here we go

Announcer 1 (24:39):
This summer you gotta equip yourself with the proper underwear. If you're gonna be walking around doing your thing and look, look like, think about a day party, you're out there, you're sweating. You need to have good underwear on, man. A hundred percent, nothing's gonna ruin your day. Like feeling discomfort in that area of your body. You need to be equipped, you need to feel cool, you need to feel comfortable, you need to feel agile, you need to feel mobile, you need to be able to do all of that while wearing the same pair of underwear. And that's why me, undies has got you covered.

Announcer 2 (25:06):
I don't know if anyone else can cover you like that. It's like an insurance policy on having a great day.

Announcer 1 (25:11):
<laugh> dude, a hundred percent. And the anti odor is a nice thing to know about. You don't have to worry that you're gonna start stinking a little bit up during the day. It's really gross. And plus it's great for like walking around man, I do a ton of walking and uh, if you don't have the right underwear on, it's easy to get some chage going, easy to get some discomfort, but when you got MeUndies you're good. And I also love to play sports wearing my MeUndies. Yeah, uh, they, they're, they're good for everything. I personally enjoy the classic black boxer brief situation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, it has good length on the leg. It's just a very comfortable, cool, solid style. But they have pretty much every style of underwear that you could ever want or imagine.

Announcer 2 (25:50):
There's over a hundred different colors and textures to choose from. So you can wear a different pair of underwear every single day, be the most unique and creative person in the bedroom. Or you could be a psychopath and just have a hundred pairs of black underwear. It doesn't matter. <laugh>, there's plenty of variety. You get to be who you want to be and you don't have to worry about anything else when you're wearing your

Announcer 1 (26:09):
MeUndies. Summer is coming. Get every cut for your butt from me. Undies, get 20% off your first order plus free shipping at meundies.com/oops podcast. That's meundies.com/oops podcast for 20% off plus free shipping MeUndies Comfort from the outside in.

Stew (26:26):
All right, that was MeUndies on the oops podcast. What do you give it on a scale of one to 10? Break it down for us.

Mike (26:33):
Well first of all, very impressive ad reads for me. I thought the, the points of distinction around the brand were very relatable and easy to understand. Nobody wants to be uncomfortable in their underwear. Everybody wants choice. And I've actually had this as a client and didn't know about the anti odor. So three different key points that stood out to me about the benefits to the brand delivered with authenticity, really strongly

Stew (26:57):
Agreed. And from an audio lytic standpoint, which is the framework that we use for scanning for and designing a message for optimum persuasion that's composed of 71 sub components of present or not present. Look, it came in at an 83% and our target's a 90. And the thing to always keep in mind with audio lytics is that like 90 is like perfection. So 'cause there's theoretically things you could continue, it's almost like a hundred percent the speed of light strap

Announcer 3 (27:24):
Yourselves in, I'm gonna make a gentle light speed.

Stew (27:29):
So it's like getting to that is like forget it. So 90 is choice and we see improvement right in this arc of like 89 99, 1 92, like right in there. We see a lot of massive improvement in performance but 83%, the point is that's super solid when I get a read like this and like technically from a message structure standpoint, like it's got an 83, there's some additional things it could do. For instance have specific like scientific substantiation, like facts and figures. Okay It didn't have that. I feel a little bit like if I'm being honest about, you know, the application of alytics, it's like yeah, I mean technically adding that in is gonna move the score up. Does it absolutely need it? Uh, these guys are doing a really good job. Like that's a long read. They're given a personal account. Could you switch out, you know, the things that draw my attention are like a cut for every butt.

(28:20):
And then they had some other tagline you think they said at the end that I can't remember. And so a cut for every butt that's five words. And then like let's say that other tagline was four or five words. So now you're getting up to seven to 10 words that audio lytics is going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Hey you're missing facts and figures. If I traded those seven to 10 words out for something like, you know, four times the stretch of competing brands or six times softer than cotton underwear, whatever it is, is that a worthwhile trade? That's where the audio lytics system to me has great value because otherwise you may not see that, right? You might lose it because of what you're saying. It's such a strong read. So it's hard to like look for improvement but there is an opportunity for improvement.

Mike (29:01):
Yeah, like I felt like it's a really strong read but our jobs are to evaluate every aspect of it. They did a great job of executing on the value proposition of the comfort and not wanting to be uncomfortable and then they kind of went back to that later with you don't want to be walking around uncomfortable. Whereas that was a bit repetitive. They kind of covered that. Whereas the other elements that they could have touched on to your point could have been fit into that segment. Right? But I mean we're really splitting hairs now. We

Stew (29:27):
Are. It feels appropriate with the Olympics coming up because we're about to all be watching like people at the very peak of their game and then having people on the sidelines critiquing like they just did the most tic thing in the world. They're like, yeah, they could have done that better.

Mike (29:38):
Yeah, we're just gonna do that in media. Like when you watch an NA game, it's like why didn't you dunk that? It's like, oh did you ever

Stew (29:45):
<laugh>? Exactly. Okay, so on a scale of one to 10, what would you give it? No audio. Lytics gave it an 83. Perfect score is 90 basically in audio Lytics what would you give that one?

Mike (29:53):
Well one out of 10, I'm gonna go nine.

Stew (29:56):
All right, perfect. I love it. The game is a foot and I love this game. Okay, here we go. The next one is Rakuten from Behind the Velvet Rope.

Announcer 4 (30:05):
Do you know that Rakuten is the smartest way to save money when you shop because Rakuten members get cash back at over 3,500 stores across every category. I just got all my clothes for this summer. I went to Neiman Marcus, sax Fifth Avenue and Bloomingdale's all through Rakuten. That's right. I went to the Rakuten website which took me to each of those stores and now I'm getting cash back just for buying clothes that I would've bought. Anyway, I'm set for the summer. You can shop amongst any category, fashion, beauty, electronics, home essentials, travel, even dining. It's really simple. Your favorite stores Pay Rakuten a commission for sending them shoppers and Rakuten shares the commission with its members. That's you. The cashback is deposited directly into your PayPal account or they can send you a check. The choice is yours. So get the Rakuten app now and join the 17 million members who are already saving cashback rates change daily. See rakuten.com for details. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Your cashback really adds up.

Stew (31:11):
Okay, lay it on me.

Mike (31:13):
Okay, well on a scale of one to 10, I assume that five would be hopelessly average and that's where I'm gonna put this, but I will with the caveat of why it's what I would consider probably lower than what the sponsor would want to hear, which is the ad read was executed I guess, well from a standpoint of the communication, but he just got all his clothes for summer and we had no personal experience. We understand that you can go to the website, that was a very good value proposition and then connect out to all these different places that you shop. But there's a part of me that doesn't believe you because you didn't have one experience of all the jumping that you said you did, that you really stood out. And for me I couldn't get past

Stew (31:54):
That exactly. I think you're spot on with audio lytics. It came in at a 65% and audio lytics primarily is structural, you know, it's observational, it's based on these weighted elements. 71 different sub components that is that thing present or not present. The waiting's based on performance that adds up to your total score. So there was words said, you know, there was stuff there kinda like you're saying like you know, five five's not a one but it's missing like you're saying substantiation of exactly what's going on there related to also how it works. Like it got part of the way there on how it worked, but not completely and definitely not in a simple way and there's no positioning, it's not positioned against other alternatives of how one could do this, where there could be an awesome opportunity for positioning here. 'cause just imagine going to 10 different sites or whatever it is. No you can go to Rakuten and save all this time, save money. There's just specifics there that we're missing from it that ultimately brought the score down to just, you know, like you said, we got an average ad here so let's see if the next group does better and is able to raise the bar. And the next ad that we are going to listen to is from IBM International Business Machines. All

Mike (33:04):
Right, shifting gears here a little bit,

Stew (33:06):
Just a tad,

Announcer 4 (33:10):
What if AI could help your business deliver mission critical outcomes with speed? With IBM consulting your business can design, build and scale trusted AI using Watson X and modernize the way you work to accelerate real impact, let's create AI that transforms your business. Learn more at ibm.com/consulting. IBM let's create,

Stew (33:38):
What do you think of that ad from IBM Mike Jensen?

Mike (33:43):
Well I would start by saying that I think services like this are a harder lift. So you know, we just talked about like what is maybe a more fun product or service in me undies. I don't know if I've ever referred to underwear as a fun product or service. So I guess maybe I'm standing alone up here, but related to this IBM ad, I like the call to action simple for going to i BM slash consulting to learn more about what for many including myself is like a need of education around ai. But AI is such a evolving topic at the water cooler at home. Everyone's talking about it. I don't know why this is so generic in its approach when you could create maybe more excitement around being able to learn more at IBM slash consulting. And so it feels like a missed opportunity.

Stew (34:29):
It does to me as well. What would you give it on a scale of one to 10?

Mike (34:33):
I'm gonna give it a six

Stew (34:34):
So it's a little better than Rakuten.

Mike (34:37):
Well I think it's a harder lift honestly that Rakuten was something that I thought the sponsor copy opportunity was pretty tremendous to be able to go to this website and then pull out, you know, the value of that right away. I don't know if you could do that as an IBM copywriter to say exactly what you're gonna get, but there's just an opportunity to just create something here that's missed.

Stew (34:58):
I think you're right, the research shows that as well, particularly in B2B and I mean in all advertising of like making emotional connections, how valuable that is and being distinct and to your point, like it felt like an ad to me before I get to the audio lytics score of like I feel like I can feel the brief for this ad and that like, oh yeah we're making this for engineers that like we used the qualified language that they used to talk about this kind of stuff and put in music that's not gonna bother anybody that feels kind of you know, pleasant. And we'll be able to just kind of count it as an impression of like whoever this technology CTO is I'm imagining is the target audience is getting one more sort of very mild nudge in the direction of IBM, you know, but I think that thinking can be misguided. Did they hear IBM and did they think AI and all of that? Yeah probably. But man did it move them at all or was it distinct at all? No, I don't wanna call it lazy necessarily, but you know what I'm trying to say,

Mike (36:00):
I want to touch on something that you mentioned in terms of like the background music, the score, right? Like so we are producing a select group of shows at Rhapsody Voices and even when the score in the background is not a wrong choice, we've had circumstances where it's like this feels too dramatic for what we're talking about right now and this music background feels dated, right? You know, if you said that was a commercial from 1991, I wouldn't have been surprised. And that's a problem when you're talking about ai, right? Like were they forced into this because it's in their other campaigns? I don't know but like you touched on it and now I'm leaning in on it, it's borderline annoying, it feels

Stew (36:33):
Sleepy to me. I feel sleepy right now.

Mike (36:37):
Well we've got another read.

Stew (36:38):
Okay, let's see if the next one can wake me up. So that one, it earned a resounding 61%, it needs more specific facts and figures, clearer demonstration and a stronger offer. Like you said another bit on this we'll just pile onto IBM is like, you know, this is maybe not the best territory for this execution. The better bet might be a host red ad where you could go longer and talk about it and explain it and if you're gonna do a shorter unit like this around this product, make something that's more distinct or interesting. So this is from the Dan Patrick show, right? Would you be better served having him go a little bit longer talking about this particularly in a segment that maybe even is adjacent to this same topic?

Mike (37:22):
That's a great point because what are we to expect from going to i BM slash consulting, right? And if Dan could even indicate with authenticity like hey, maybe Dan doesn't know that much about AI but he went to the website right and immediately gathered some tips on ways that it might be able to help the Dan Patrick show. It's pretty powerful, right? Because as a business owner myself, I'm not sure what to do next with ai, right? Isn't that the opportunity for IBM and that's the goal of this is to engage us enough to get us to go somewhere and the ads not delivering on that. And you're right, it's a new exploratory like we talked about earlier, right? Where hey post reads can really drive people to something that where you're having to educate them on what it is for the first time.

Stew (38:06):
And there's so much talk about ai, it's like how much better would it be to have Dan Patrick even if it was a prerecorded, go, hey this is Dan Patrick. I know when it comes to this AI stuff, it's changing every day. It's hard to even know what's going on. But I do know IBM is somebody that's been in computing for a long time and in fact they've got this new AI product or consulting that they're taking me through on a special webinar 'cause I've got questions and you can sign up to join that with me by going to blah blah blah blah blah. Given the path like now we're talking, right? As opposed to the impression you and I just got, again, I wanna like give the teams credit that you know are working on this stuff. I can kind of feel it. It's like okay, let's make something pleasant that doesn't disturb anyone that at the right CPM if nothing else, even the person subconscious heard IBM AI consulting. But man, come on that's setting the bar pretty low.

Mike (38:57):
If the ROI is around engagement at IBM slash consulting, I think we're both sitting here now going, wow, you give us a budget for host reads and you let them continue to run that at scale probably at our more efficient CPMI think Stu and I, if we were given a budget for host reads versus the efficiency of this standard sponsor read and we of course probably had to pay a bit more premium for those. I think we can out deliver on the ROI.

Stew (39:24):
Let's do it. Absolutely. I'd

Mike (39:26):
Love to do

Stew (39:27):
It. All right, that's our open invitation to the team over at IBM Rhap Sea Voices in Oxford Road join forces to do a bake off against this current creative. Let it be known

Mike (39:38):
My job as a selling CEO to at least attempt that and I will.

Stew (39:41):
We're taking ad infinitum to a whole other level right now. Mike Jensen. I'm loving this. All right, we got one more. It's from monday.com. Here we go.

Announcer 5 (39:49):
You know some people enjoy composing their own music chord by chord and others are happiest when they come across that one perfect song work is not a lot different than that. Whether you prefer building your own workflow or using a pre-made template with monday.com, you and the team can work in a way that's comfortable for everyone. Comfort tap the banner to go to monday.com and build your own amazing workflow or find an awesome template. No judgment.

Stew (40:18):
Alright Actually we do want judgment right now. How do you judge this?

Mike (40:21):
Okay, this is tough <laugh> because I know obviously that work went into this but I'm still confused after this ad of why monday.com

Stew (40:31):
And this was from going west a true crime podcast. So you know,

Mike (40:35):
Okay I'm still confused even if I was a going West regular listener and I think some of them are too,

Stew (40:42):
This sort of smacks of the same thing as the other B2B one which was IBM of like they're saying however they just said it and it's okay that I'm forgetting it right now 'cause it kind of illustrates a point about all of this with ad infin items that I don't remember and it's literally been 20 seconds but I think they call it workflows, the

Mike (40:57):
Newer product or service and that's where I feel like this confusion shouldn't be here. And yeah, you need to be selecting like the key points of distinction for the service.

Stew (41:06):
I don't know who's out there shopping for workflows, maybe there is a whole audience. It's just anyway, I'm inserting myself in your judgment. Go ahead please judge. On a scale of one to 10, what would you give monday.com MeUndies was at nine, which we agree excellent. Rakuten was at five IBM six monday.com

Mike (41:24):
Four

Stew (41:26):
Under Rakuten.

Mike (41:28):
I felt like I understood the value proposition of Rakuten because it concise in the copy of 3,500 different stores that I can get points back from and I've just heard this ad one time, I've never heard that up swear. Whereas monday.com I'm still struggling to know what or where to go.

Stew (41:48):
Maybe monday.com.

Mike (41:49):
I'm worried about Rhapsody voices ability to capture money.com ad revenue right

Stew (41:54):
Now. This might be exactly what they need to hear. That's part of what's up with that info item. To me what I find is it's freeing to be critiquing a campaign that neither you or I are financially incentivized in any way. We can just look at it as professionals. It's refreshing 'cause we can have more objectivity and we're just like kind of doing it also as like listeners,

Mike (42:14):
I think that it's probably important to mention that they have a heavier lift in selling like what you talked about like workflow, right? So with that, are you tempted to go efficiency and generic knowing that you have to reach a lot of people in order to get engagement for workflow? I don't necessarily agree with that strategy but I can understand saying, hey, we're not gonna just be able to run a niche business podcasts, so what if we go the other way 'cause we won't reach enough people. What if we go the other way and just go highly generic and hope to capture across the overall what is generally in the population a higher household income listening to podcasts and streaming audio engagement.

Stew (42:58):
I don't know. What I think of with this is when it comes to B2B in particular is like, look how much time does this save the team teams that use monday.com save X amount of time? 'cause we all know it's work, having to use the word workflow or projects or whatever. I may be missing something. I didn't see this brief, but to me it's like regardless of how you're doing the targeting companies that switch to monday.com and maybe you know something about the size or whatever, save X amount of time with tools like

Mike (43:27):
Workflow. I'm not trying to lean us as particular direction. 'cause I do believe in host and non hosts reads I do. But are there hosts that are having great experiences with this? Like if you had, I'll just give you the personal experience. This is not an advertiser of ours, but like I use Grammarly, I find it highly effective when I'm writing an important note, there's something I miss and don't catch. I love throwing it in there so that I can just have the right capitalization or there's tools within that product that save me time and give me confidence in important communication over email. I'd love to do a host read for Grammarly, right? I bet you there are many business owners or managers or what have you feel that way about monday.com and there may be creators that feel that way and I just think that's the opportunity here.

Stew (44:09):
Well, I know I can 'cause we use monday.com. Oh <laugh>. So I'll do it.

Mike (44:13):
I can say this, I did not know that.

Stew (44:14):
I run a creative team at Oxford Road and we've like everybody, I feel like I've tried organizing it with like spreadsheets with Google Sheets. I remember we were on Basecamp. What I can say about monday.com is this one, I'm not a super project manager that uses all of the functionality. I know that once we switched to monday.com and it was probably longer ago than I realized, I wanna say three years, but it might be more like closer to like five never switched out. I know my experience of it is it's simple, it's intuitive. Was there a couple like things to like kind of learn how to use with it? Yeah, but I know any interaction with other documents or software, like I know it's been frictionless, keeps my team organized and that's how I run my team. Check-in every week is in monday.com. So that's my endorsement, right? I don't know the name of a single one of their sub products or functionalities or any of that. I know it made our life easier in our creative department and we've never left it.

Mike (45:08):
Wow. The Oxford team really could do with you specifically in the lead

Stew (45:12):
Go to monday.com/oxford Road Creative Services, which the acronym is orcs, which the fantasy part of my heart loves. At the end of the day here, what we have is MeUndies at nine from Mike Jensen, 83% with audio lytics. Then next would be IBM at a six from Mike Jensen, 61% with audio lytics. Little bit of a flip flop here, Rakuten at a five from Mike Jensen, 65 from Audio Lytics. So little inverse there with IBM and Rakuten, but they're in the same zone. And then actually the low score for both of us from monday.com, four from Mike Jensen, 58% from audio lytics. After listening to all these ads and talking to the chief audio officers out there, what advice do you have for them on how to make their audio ad dollars work

Mike (45:55):
Harder? I think when we listened to these ad reads, we go back to something we talked about earlier in the show, which is the authenticity, right? We had a couple of ad reads there where we thought the product or service was a great opportunity for people, but it needed a bit more education and it needed a bit more concise value proposition. And we felt like host reads and or better copy execution of the value should be executed. So I think it's that authenticity. It's a bit more of a laser focus on the copy and that extended even into sort of like the background music and score and those that were not post red. And then lastly, when there's any confusion of what the product or service will provide, whether it host or non hosts, it has a negative impact on the messaging.

Stew (46:38):
So authenticity, focus and clarity.

Mike (46:42):
Yep. You did a very good job of taking that word salad and making it something of value. I

Stew (46:47):
Focused on it. A

Mike (46:47):
Focused, yes.

Stew (46:48):
This has been awesome. Mike, thank you for joining. Thanks for coming on to add infinitum, sharing your experience. Where can listeners go to learn more about you and connect?

Mike (46:57):
Well, you can always go to the website, rhapsody voices.com, but you can reach me directly at mike MIK e@rhapsodyvoices.com. I'd love to hear from people, listeners, questions. And I'm here to be a resource for anybody and I know that I learned from each of those conversations

Stew (47:11):
Just like this one today. Thanks

Mike (47:12):
For doing this face to face, by

Stew (47:14):
The way. You're welcome. Yeah. I'm glad we did it face to face in one last audio rule of third, something that comes well in threes is thank you, thank you, thank you.

Mike (47:22):
Wow. I really appreciate the opportunity to be a part of the show.

Stew (47:25):
I'm glad you were here. It's hard to be hateful with a plateful of grateful, isn't that right?

Mike (47:28):
It is. You know, and why not invite longtime media round table listener, which that I

Stew (47:33):
Am. Thank you for that. So for our CIOs that are listening, remember authenticity, focus, clarity, and when it comes to the copy, look for that personal tie in with the host Hosts are people too. Like we've talked about. Keep it simple and make sure that you've got a clear call to action that it's stated clearly and that it makes sense, right? You want it to be simple. So personal tie in simplicity, keep it simple and have a clear call to action. And to all our listeners, remember, if you like what you heard today, show us some love with an honest five star review. And if there's an ad you can't get out of your head that you want us to dissect, let me know. It's stew@oxfordroad.com. That's STE w@oxfordroad.com. And until next time, remember to have fun making the ads work.