Ready to join us on a thrill-ride through the captivating landscape of the Ryder Cup? Prepare for an in-depth analysis of the tournament, a deep dive into the strategies that led Team Europe to victory, and some keen insights into the exceptional leadership of their last-minute captain, Luke Donald. We'll share how Donald, despite not conforming to the 'bomber' image prevalent in the golfing world, rose to be number one, and how he leveraged his team's unique strengths to secure the win.
Our conversation doesn't stop there. We strip back the layers of the Ryder Cup strategies, highlighting how meticulous preparation gave Team Europe their edge. You'll get an understanding of the role of the Ryder Cup's "heart" slogan, and the critical relevance of strategy and analytics in this intensely competitive environment. We'll contrast this with the American team's approach, underscoring the lesson that relying on talent alone may not always clinch success.
In the third part of our discussion, we probe into the roles of Ryder Cup captains and contemplate how different leaders might have swayed the results. Recollections of past Ryder Cups, like the electrifying 1999 event at Brookline, add further depth to the conversation. We also remember the enduring legacy of Sevi Bayesteros, whose spirit continues to inspire Team Europe's stellar performances. Join us for this enthralling conversation as we decode the layers of meaning within the Ryder Cup, its influence on European golf, and the lasting impact of the captains' calls.
Ready to join us on a thrill-ride through the captivating landscape of the Ryder Cup? Prepare for an in-depth analysis of the tournament, a deep dive into the strategies that led Team Europe to victory, and some keen insights into the exceptional leadership of their last-minute captain, Luke Donald. We'll share how Donald, despite not conforming to the 'bomber' image prevalent in the golfing world, rose to be number one, and how he leveraged his team's unique strengths to secure the win.
Our conversation doesn't stop there. We strip back the layers of the Ryder Cup strategies, highlighting how meticulous preparation gave Team Europe their edge. You'll get an understanding of the role of the Ryder Cup's "heart" slogan, and the critical relevance of strategy and analytics in this intensely competitive environment. We'll contrast this with the American team's approach, underscoring the lesson that relying on talent alone may not always clinch success.
In the third part of our discussion, we probe into the roles of Ryder Cup captains and contemplate how different leaders might have swayed the results. Recollections of past Ryder Cups, like the electrifying 1999 event at Brookline, add further depth to the conversation. We also remember the enduring legacy of Sevi Bayesteros, whose spirit continues to inspire Team Europe's stellar performances. Join us for this enthralling conversation as we decode the layers of meaning within the Ryder Cup, its influence on European golf, and the lasting impact of the captains' calls.
Hello and welcome to the first edition of the Making the Turn podcast featuring the Douch and Double D, where we talk all things golf and how it relates to golfers out there in this space, trying to figure out how they can possibly play a better golf. And man, are we excited to have this first episode because it's coming right on the heels, not even an hour removed from the finish of this edition of our Ryder Cup, where we saw that the Europeans were able to make good and finish off the Americans on day three, which looked pretty good and thorough from the beginning, and the score probably got a little closer than they would have liked, but they definitely saw it through. So, without further ado, let's talk to my partner out there, the man with the plan, the guy over in the UK and absolutely one of my favorite writers on the entire planet, mr Dan Davies, or as I like to call him, double D, double D, what's going on?
Speaker 2:Well, douch, I'm emotionally strung out after that final day of the Ryder Cup. I mean, it always does that to you, doesn't it? I mean, whatever the outcome, it just has this way of putting you through the emotional ringer. And as a fan of Team Europe and as somebody who's been watching these matches since the mid to early 80s, that was you know, even though the score at the end 16.5, 11.5 to Europe, which I think reflected the you know, the overall play it was really tight on the last day, it was nerve-wracking and at points, like it always is on the Sunday singles, there were points where you think this is going to, this is, this is getting away from Team Europe. But you know, in the end they came through and I think they were very, very worthy winners in the end. And I think that Luke Donald did a fantastic job as captain. I mean, I think he I do think he outclassed Zach Johnson as captain from sort of day one, from the get-go.
Speaker 1:I don't think there's any dispute about that, which is really concerning, because I don't understand how the European team had to make the change in captaincy due to the events with Henrik Stinson joining Liv and them taking that away from him. But you know, it should have been Europe. That felt like maybe they were a little scrambling, but it never felt like they weren't prepared for what was in front of them and what they needed to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they definitely had a plan, didn't they? I mean, I think in Eduardo Molinari, they had a guy who you know, as Luke said, put together a stats packet for each of the players. They had a definite plan that was based around each of the players strengths, around how the course was set up. You know, that course was designed specifically for the Ryder Cup, for the 2023 Ryder Cup, and they set it up in a way that played into the strengths of Team Europe. And you're right, you know Luke Donald had much less of a run in than Zach Johnson did, but I think, since you know, from day one, from the moment he was appointed, he had a touch of class about him.
Speaker 2:He looked like he was a leader who had sort of you know he was considered, he was intelligent he was, he made good choices throughout and I think he wasn't overly emotional as well in the heat of the battle, which I think was important. And I think clearly you know you see the reaction at the end of all the players that they had a huge amount of respect for him and that's massively important as a captain.
Speaker 1:But I think he took kind of his playing career right into his captaincy right in terms of you know a lot of people forget but there was a point in time where Luke was the number one player in the world and you know, honestly, has never been even at tour average in his length. So you know, luke has always kind of been in this underdog role and he's kind of bet on himself, like he alluded to in the interview right after they went official. But you know, he just kind of it seemed like really embraced that underdog role. And I think generally when you see these quote unquote upsets where on paper it doesn't look like it should be much of a match, but when you see these things happen, generally the team that you know doesn't have the all-stars they really have to think about how they're going to beat all of that talent right. They have to outsmart them, they have to be tricky.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like going out and playing on a Sunday afternoon and you obviously are hitting it way better than the 85 year old gentleman that you're playing with, but he just kind of keeps dinking it down the fairway and popping it on the green and rolling some putts in. That guy is tough to beat and it wears you out and on paper you should beat that guy pretty handily, yet he finds a way to kind of outsmart you and use some of that veteran wisdom. And I think that that's really what you saw, with the Molinari brothers really coming maybe a little bit more so in the spotlight, because I think, as an American, a lot of Americans had forgotten about the Molinari's because they've been out of the spotlight as players for a little while.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean Edward. And Molinari was a winning rider-cut player. I mean he had the experience of being there. And you're right about Luke Donald. I mean Luke Donald was probably the last number one who wasn't a bomber. You know he was a player who did not like you say, he was not even anywhere near the top of the driving averages, but a player who played to his strengths at a brilliant short game was a great iron player. It was a fantastic putter. I mean, really for a player like him to go to number one in the modern era was a superlative achievement.
Speaker 2:And I think you're right, he did take that strategy, that ability to think around the game in a different way than you know, a multi-dimensional way. He brought that into his captaincy and I think you know, with the Molinari brothers, particularly Eduardo, who you know is a is a golf dated guru who's looking for the edge all the time. But you know the US also had access to those sorts of people. They had Scout consulting who worked with them for the last two or three rider cups. You know they had a lot of the same sort of insight.
Speaker 1:But it just seems that to me that it's not embraced, it falls on deaf ears. And that's that's where my bone comes into play with the captaincy and generally just kind of you know the PGA is kind of, you know, tried and true motto of hey, we got the best players and we think we're the best, so we'll just throw it out there. And you know, sunday afternoon they'll make it tight because, you know, in the singles it gets a lot more difficult for a David vs Goliath scenario to occur. But when we get out there and four balls and four some, you know, I think that obviously you see that Americans aren't used to playing in that format and obviously Team Europe always has an advantage there. So I just think it's really blindingly absurd at how traditional we tend to be with how we send our teams to the rider cup and we generally are ill-prepared.
Speaker 1:The guys, a lot of the guys, hadn't played in five weeks. And then you look at a lot of the picks and man, you know if, a couple of those things, if you know the big one, obviously the, the final dagger was Ricky hitting driver into the middle of the pond. But you know if, if we had you know a few different players down the stretch. That could have been spicy like that could have been really spicy double.
Speaker 2:D. Yeah, man, cameron Young is obviously the the, the one that people are going to bring up because he's a brilliant driver.
Speaker 1:We're not going to talk about Cameron Young. We're going to forget about the fact that we could have potentially had Dustin Johnson out there. We could have potentially had Bryson D Shambow out there like okay it comes down to a drivable par four and Bryson D Shambow sitting at home and wasn't even given a phone call. Give me a break.
Speaker 2:There's three drive three drivable par fours on Marcos Simone and they pushed up the fifth, I think it was, to make it drivable. So, yeah, and Europe knew that the Americans were better with their wedge game, so they made those, those, those par fours, drivable and actually Europe had a really good record. I mean, strangely, spieth was the one who actually had the highest birdie percentage, went going for a green on a drivable par four, but you know, spieth only really brought it on the last day, but it was, it was, it was odd, I mean, I think it was. I think Alain Bells were ringing for America, team America, from that very ill considered press conference, as Zach Johnson gave, where I don't like the fact that the captain's being indignant.
Speaker 1:You know and that's the word that stands out to me I know that there's a lot of people you know that you, for example, you are an actual journalist, so you have to watch these things and pay attention.
Speaker 1:But in the modern age a lot of us are clicky and we like to read the headlines and move on. But as somebody who actually watched all the matches and woke up extra early here in the United States and then would actually watch the press conferences and read the clippings, you know, the one word that I would use about Captain Johnson is he had a very indignant attitude towards the press and towards any kind of questioning of his captaincy. And I'm here to tell you that when you are a captain who is trying to win something, you should be taking in all, all, all information from every angle and trying to use that to come up within a competitive advantage. And for him to kind of be indignant and act like nobody has a right to question him because he's the captain, I just think that's a farce, yeah well, I think the interesting thing he was asked about the analytics wasn't he?
Speaker 2:he was asked about, you know, what was America going to do to counter, you know the impact of Dodo Molinari had on the the European side. And you know the Europeans were, from the outset, going to be very analytics driven. They were going to look at where they could find the edge because obviously the world rankings, you know, proved that the Americans had the strongest side, I mean actually in terms of, in terms of form, coming in Europe, had the best three players in, you know, in Houghton sorry, in Hovland Houghton and you know McElroy they were, you know they were on form coming in and Sean Rahm was just unbelievable, like every writer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean Rahm was having a, was struggling a little bit before he came into Wentworth and then he played beautifully at Wentworth. But all 12 players played in the BMW PGA championship at Wentworth, which is obviously the European tour, a DP World Tours marquee event. They were there, they were tournament sharp and there were only three members of the team USA who had actually played since the tour championship which you alluded to earlier. I mean, they just can't be tournament ready. Whatever you know Wyndham Clark is saying about being rested and all that sort of stuff, you have to be tournament sharp, you have to be sort of absolutely ready to take that on the nerve endings kind of have to be singed a little bit.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like if you I always tell people you know when you're a tour player, like the grief that you take is unreal because every fan that that paid their way is going to say something to you at some point during the round and it's.
Speaker 1:It's just like you know, your nerve endings are constantly kind of getting teased and burnt and you almost kind of have to develop a little bit of that singe at the end of those things to kind of put those blinders on and be ready to go into that octagon. And when you kind of move out of that bubble for a little bit, those nerve endings grow back and you're, you're well rested. But to your point, like you're also very sensitive because you haven't really been out there in a little bit and you kind of forgot a little bit. And to your point, man, I think playing in is just critical. I think that that's really not necessarily that you know they should be playing three or four weeks straight coming in, nothing like that, obviously. But you know, I think you know it's five weeks since your last competitive round. I think that's probably a bit of a stretch.
Speaker 2:Yeah and you know, I think Max Homer and Justin Thomas played at the Fortinet, which is, you know, a very relaxed Stop on the PGA tour. It's not the sort of high tension, hydrama, big stakes of a lot of other tournaments, whereas, you know, these guys have played at Wentworth for the biggest title on the European tour and all 12 of them are played and they actually played. They've been grouped together so that this plan was clearly in place about getting these guys, getting these guys bonded. All 12 of them went out to Marco Simone two weeks before the Ryder Cup or just before the BMW PGA. You know, any nine of the 12 from Team America went out to Marco Simone. You know.
Speaker 2:You know reasons have been given for that. But you know, as Paul McGinley, who is regarded as being one of the best-prepared European Ryder Cup captain, said, you know you've got to take this seriously, you've got to explore every edge you can get. And it seemed to me now, and the thing that, as I keep coming back to, when Zach Johnson was asked about what role analytics, what role performance data, was going to play in his captaincy, he just got no answer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no answer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was just like. You know, it's too complicated for me to be able to describe it to you so well, why don't you try?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just, I really find it. It's difficult. Like you know, they they constantly talk about heart. You know, like that's the big tagline for the Ryder Cup. It means more you represent your country, you represent your hometown, you represent the street you grew up with and the people who have been in your life. And that is all true. And and that has never rung more true to me than being at the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straits and watching Shane Lowry. After they had just taken a thumping by the Americans, he stayed in his match and grinded it out and on 18, made a putt, and I cannot remember who to beat. But just to see the reaction from Shane and the people with him, even though they had just taken an absolute drubbing, I mean it shows you what it means to the Europeans to win a point and to say that they have a winning record in the Ryder Cup. I mean it truly is special.
Speaker 1:But I really find it difficult to believe that. It all comes down to heart in this thing. And don't get me wrong, I think that heart is a big part of it and I think, when it comes to the Ryder Cup and dealing with the emotions is an additional piece. But you can't tell me it's all about the heart. There has to be substance there to double D, like you've got to have a plan and then go after the heart. I mean, here's my.
Speaker 2:Look at, look at what happened in the foursome's. I mean, that's the perfect case in point is the foursome's Europe 171, you know, and the fact that they, they chose to play foursome's first because they knew they'd have an advantage in that, so they, they wanted to build a lead. You know, if you look at how many times, you know, either side won the first hole to actually establish momentum, and I think it was Europe was one that won the first hole ten times. I think. The USA won it four times and they didn't win it once Until the third session on the second, the fourth session on the second day, right? So they haven't, they haven't got to a point where they were sort of like coming out of the traps, putting red on the board, and actually that psychological impact of being able to do that, and that, I think, is all about Taking care of the details and it's the small details that then compound to become bigger impacts on the overall performance. I think you're right.
Speaker 1:I think that but that's, that's that you're talking about, aren't details either, right? So, like when you say stats, it's like, okay, how did they use the stats to help them? Because a lot of people don't really use stats and don't understand them. But, for example they've alluded a bunch to this, this massive Anomaly. They found between 180 and 220 yards. Right, they knew that they had a significant advantage at that yardage that the Americans did not have, quite frankly, because the Americans never have that yardage on the PGA tour. So the big thing that they would do is that they would literally force you to play shots from this distance. They set the par 3's to those lengths. They grew the grass in. I mean, marco Simone Looks like a completely different golf course than it did originally Because of the way they change this golf course to give them an advantage and, and to the to the point of stats, they went as too far as to actually go in and change some of the grasses around the golf course, because they knew that that was going to level with the thick, wide blade.
Speaker 1:They knew that the players weren't going to be able to spin the ball nearly as much and they kept talking about how the Americans had Such an advantage with the wedges. Well, how do you take away some of that advantage? Well, you give them really rough grass around the greens. It's kind of difficult to manage, and now everybody loses a little bit and that brings their advantage back. I mean, that's really using stats. But once again, that's starting using those stats way beforehand and really building a plan, and that's just, quite frankly, what we don't do as Americans. We show up and think our talent's going to get it done, we have a good doing it and other sports.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the golf course was was really almost like the 13th man for Team Europe. They really did create that golf course Not, you know, not only for match play and I thought it turned out to be a fantastic match play golf course. I really didn't. You know the Marcos Mone came in for a lot of criticism before the tournament. People were saying the roughs too long and all this sort of stuff and it's another sort of faceless Ryder Cup venue. But I thought it was a superb Ryder Cup venue. I thought it produced fantastic drama.
Speaker 2:I thought it framed some amazing moments and some amazing shots. I mean whole 16. I mean how many times on that short path forward did we see sort of outrageous shots from? You know people chipping in even on the last day, like Sept Strakas chip in or you know Tommy Fleetwood's Tea shop there to actually find that green and to find the back of that green after his opponent to put it in the water. I mean you know there was just so much that was dialed in to Europe's strengths and understanding those strengths and it wasn't just about driving accuracy. I mean Europe had a very slight edge over the US Driver length at three wood length and probably long iron hybrid length. But it wasn't. It wasn't significant, but actually and and Europe had a team that was longer hitters, and they've had before. I mean, traditionally the US has been a longer-hitting side but, like you say, they knew that Europe had strengths and had advantages in different areas and they set up the golf course and they told the players this was the plan. This is what we've done. This is how we've created an opportunity for you to find that edge and exploit it. And they did it.
Speaker 2:I mean, in the fact that you know a lot of those players had played in Italian opens before. You know it's a tough course. It's been for the last three years. It's been a tough, it's been a really tough venue for players on the European tour. So they were getting people into the, into the feeling, into the mindset, into the what was going to be required to really play well on that course. And I think that I think that you know Dave Samson, who is the the course architect from Arco Simone. He deserves a lot of credit. He, you know, he he certainly faced a few brick bats in the in the build up with people criticizing the course, but I think it was it was a fantastic Beautifully.
Speaker 1:I thought it's beautifully, I really did. I thought it was great. I mean, even from an American standpoint, like it didn't. It didn't feel link see, it didn't feel. You know, like some of these other rider cups that have been in Europe have felt to where it's like, oh you know they got a massive no, it felt like, you know, everybody played. I thought the play was at a high level across the board with both sides. Obviously some of the players that hadn't been there before struggled a bit with the pressure, but you know, I definitely think that the golf course played well and I think not only that, but it was, it was good theater. If you look at the way the golf course is designed in the way that the slopes are utilized, in the way that the that the golf course, the design actually fits the topography. It creates a lot of these kind of nice big bowl features and you could just see it at the end with how many people were packed in around every hole. Man, it was. So I think that was awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the scene on the 16th, I mean it was just. The crowds were absolutely enormous. And I was listening to a podcast this morning. I think max home was saying that this is just the best T-box I've ever been on. You're looking down, it's completely ringed by these massive crowds. But you know, they designed that golf course for the spectators, they designed it for the rider cup. They knew there was going to be this enormous number of people who wanted to actually be able to follow the action and see the action and also create that atmosphere. And I think you know one thing I feel about the rider cup is I love the sort of tribalism, I love the atmosphere which is unique to the rider cup, but I don't really, I really fired up.
Speaker 1:Man Like Roy's thrown in the back of a car because he's all wound up, like I mean.
Speaker 2:You know you're getting that way at PGA that's that's great, all that sort of stuff, and it shows the passion. But I really do feel quite strong. I don't like people shouting out hit it in the water. You know, yeah, cheat all this sort of stuff. There's always a few sort of people that let the vast majority down. I think you can cheer your team. You can, absolutely. You know, you can sing, you can chant them onto the tea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can have huge product of being in the sun all day and having a few too many, a few too many sodas, you know I mean it's just it's unfortunate man.
Speaker 2:What's it gonna be like at Beth page in two years?
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm real yeah yeah, and I really I don't. I don't like the fact that we bait these things to happen. You know, like the, the PGA wants to see, you know, bedlam when it comes to the Ryder Cup in 2025, because obviously that makes, you know Twitter, now known as X, and you know Instagram and everything go crazy, you know, due to that. But at the end of the day, man, like you know, I think it's like anything. These things happen right. Like you know, somebody says something shouldn't say they're a little over-served, somebody dives in the water, but it's always unfortunate because we let these things go too far and then somebody gets hurt and then we say, well, we didn't see that coming. No, we tried to make that come. Like we set that up, we set that whole situation up. So I just hope that they do something, because golf is one of those sports and one of those games that really can be affected by somebody from the outside, and I certainly hope we would never have a Ryder Cup come down to something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when there was, there was and I don't know whether this was true but somebody shining their cell phone torch On somebody's ball when they're teeing off and things like that. I mean you were already starting to see this coming in with with gambling and things like those people. I mean, especially the Ryder Cup, when you got 12 singles matches. I mean the gambling opportunities for that are, you know, enormous on the last day and actually on the first two days as well. But you don't want you don't want that to sort of overstep the mark. I think partisanship is absolutely fine. The atmosphere of the Ryder Cup is totally unique. It's more like a British football match than it is a golf tournament.
Speaker 1:You're going into a heavyweight fight. You know I mean it really does. It has big energy. It feels like a big football game. It feels like rugby cricket. I'm sure you know I haven't been to a cricket match with double D yet, but he's promising to take me to one and I hear the energy is pretty good there. So Cricket.
Speaker 2:Cricket is quite gentile. If you come to a, come over to the UK next time, do you shall take to a football match and we'll you know what the proper football, not what what you Americans call football. But, like you know, and I know that there's great atmospheres at US sports as well, but and that's why the players, but it's over the line a lot too.
Speaker 1:You know we have that problem. You know we celebrate the Buffalo Bills fan base, the Bills mafia, because they jump through tables and see. You know what I mean. Like it's it definitely, you know, and I we will have this conversation down the road and that's the beautiful thing about this podcast and making the turn is that it affords us the opportunity to really look at a lot of Things. But I think part of making the turn with golf is we've seen that there's a lot more of this football crowd that's very kind of in your face and we won and you lost. We see that really making its way to the golf course and drove. So you know that is my concern. Is that how much of golf's tradition We'll kind of move on to the next generation, because I think it's what you see more across the board in general at any sporting event. Yeah, I mean there wasn't.
Speaker 2:You know who was. There was in the UK. On the coverage on TV there was a lot of Trailing of the Nicholas Jacqueline award. You know the concession award about, you know sportsmanship but and Justin Rose won it in the end, which is fine because he is a.
Speaker 1:He's a consummate sportsman's favorite golfer of all time. It's not close.
Speaker 2:But it's but it. You know, there wasn't really a moment and I thought maybe it was Ricky Fowler, because I was really surprised that he gave that part to Tommy Fleetwood on the 16th, which effectively sealed the game. I think there was a bit of meat on that bone. I wouldn't have given that part.
Speaker 1:Three-footer to win the Ryder Cup.
Speaker 2:Yeah, downhill three-footer. I was thinking, you know, when it was serving the balance. I was really surprised he gave that part and I was thinking, well, maybe he's looking to win something this week and it's the Jacqueline Nicholas award. But yeah, I mean, went to. I kind of thought to myself.
Speaker 1:You know, for a guy that you wonder about under the gun sometimes in my hats. Off to him, because the last time he was under the gun he paid it off at the rocket mortgage. So you know he's a different. Maybe he's different this way, but when I think of Ricky man and I thought this to myself a lot coming down the stretch a lot of those guys were really squirrely under the gun. And you know you're talking about late matches and You're possibly a late match because coach didn't think it was gonna matter when it came down to you and it's like those. Just, you know I get it. In the first couple matches you got your rock stars out there. You know, with the with the exception of Scotty kind of really making a mess with the putter every now and then those guys are pretty rock solid. But to your point, man Three and a half feet downhill to win the rider cup in front of an awful lot of people, whoo, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I went away. Yeah, I was surprised by that. But also you look at Jordan Spieth. I mean he was put out 12 if you're, it will gun if the US were gonna win the rider cup. They needed a really strong anchoring there. Of course they needed to get red on the board, of course they needed to get off to a really fast start. But actually, the player who played the worst all week by any metric, you look at the player who was in the worst form coming in by quite a long way and we, you know, we looked at the day to the clip data on that and you could see that. You know Jordan Spieth was struggling coming in and obviously, you know we're only looking back at his last performance, which is five weeks ago, so we don't know quite what he's done in the meantime. But nothing over the first, nothing over the first two days, suggested he was on great form and, okay, he pulled it out, he played.
Speaker 2:It was an incredible match with Larry and we didn't see a lot of it because it was sort of it wasn't a good form either, and fairness to Shane, right like and he hasn't been in great form either no, but they both, they, apparently they just shot the lights out in the last, in the last match, but it was interesting, you know, again, looking at that order that Zach Johnson put out, you know that he had, to your point, a lot of players who weren't really playing particularly well at the bottom. You know, maybe Justin Thomas are thinking, okay, we can trust his rider, cut pedigree, he's a fighter, he's somebody who's gonna pull it out, and you know, sure enough, he did. But yeah, it was just it. There were so many strange decisions, I thought, from Zach Johnson, and a lot of them have been commented on. But you know the pairings on the first day putting out Ricky Fowler when he wasn't feeling well, I mean, why? Why do that? You know? And the speed Thomas pairing just wasn't, you know it wasn't.
Speaker 1:I don't think we had the right I mean, I don't think that the US team had the I just I think that the whole system is kind of flawed and and my point that I was gonna make a little bit earlier, but I'll just go ahead and say now is that, you know, as an American, I love my country and I support the American teams, obviously, but it's embarrassing, it's just absolutely embarrassing that you know, for us to have that big of an advantage on paper and then to not even Really make it close because, if we're being honest, you know, I think it got a little snug at the end, or more so than people Expected it too. But, for the most part, like I was really hoping that the European team would come out and just trounce us this morning, because I think very similar to what happened after whistling straights, I really think we need to Look at the people who are putting together the processes that lead to who gets selected for the Capitancy and who's going to be involved with helping that captain, and what kind of systems are we gonna put in place to make sure we pick the right people? Because, quite frankly, you know, as I alluded to earlier, dustin Johnson Brooks kept. I'm sorry Bryson De Shambow not being there.
Speaker 1:You know, like you said, cameron Young, another really world-class player you know, not there it's, it's like I get it. You know we love the storylines and we love that. You know that we have all these pictures of Ricky, jordan and JT All together when they were young and how cute is that and it's an easy story to sell. But at the end of the day I don't know that what they did this past year really, with the exception of Jordan Spieth, I don't know what the other two really did With this year to earn that spot. I know that Ricky's an amazing story and came back from you know it looked like off the grid to win, but that's a wonderful story. But like what do you do the rest of the year? Like?
Speaker 2:how does it feel? It feels to me a bit like the power was in the hands of the players too much. You know the players, the sort of caucus of players that made up the team USA, had the casting vote and you know Sam Burns. He played okay, but he was there on the pick of Scotty Sheffler almost certainly, wasn't he? I mean, yes, he won the World Match play this year and you know that's a, that's a good sort of tick in his column, but he was there to partner Scotty Sheffler and that didn't really work, did it? It's kind of funny.
Speaker 1:We have this thing called. We call it like elite bath. We have elite travel basketball teams here in the US and these teams it's kind of funny because they they, you know move on and go play high school basketball or college basketball and like the, the kids that are on the team will only work with the Other kids that they've been on teams with before, like they won't pass the ball to the. You know, I mean, and it does feel that way, right, it feels like this is kind of a crew that grew up kind of playing all this high-level junior golf together and Like they're kind of like well, now that we're here, let's just keep it to us and they don't let any of the other kids you know on the bus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot of commentary around that wasn't there and you know people have come out to defend the team saying that wasn't the case. But you know, bryson de Shambot is one of the most informed players in the world at the moment and, like you say, in a golf course with three drivable par 4s, a short par 5 in 12 and with that sort of prodigious length, he's going to have a have a big advantage.
Speaker 1:Then, dustin Johnson, you want to talk about having the right stuff.
Speaker 2:He went five and oh, the whistle whistle in straights, you know.
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean you really he's not even good enough to get a phone call like I mean, dude, it's just laughable at what we're putting out there. And then my hats off. You know, I'm not. I'm not saying that we put out such a bad product that we lost the Ryder Cup. That's not true at all is a matter of fact. What happened was the European team put together such a good plan that they couldn't be beat with an ensemble cast of some of the best players in the world, and I don't want to take anything at all away from what team Europe did. But, with all that being said, still I feel like it could have been potentially different, and Certainly a different outcome than it was, had we had a captain that was more involved and looking at actual performance instead of storylines.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think I think you know that the Dilemma of being a Ryder Cup captain is if you win you're a hero, if you don't, you're nowhere. And then then the sort of Inquest starts afterwards and I think after a 16 and a half for 11 and a half to feet on the back of a 1711 win, that was meant to be the opening of a new epoch for the Ryder Cup in in the US Ryder Cup teams. That's a big step back. You know that's a. That's a really big sort of Backward step and I think that you know you made a really good point. Team Europe played superbly for three days, particularly for the first three sessions. There was always going to be a change in momentum at some point, because playing that level of golf is tiring Not that I've got any experience of it whatsoever, but I've watched enough Ryder Cup golf to know that how many holes it do you think you've walked with Seve?
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know many, many. What I want to know when he's but when he's in contention, how much energy do you feel around that?
Speaker 2:Oh, enormous. Yeah, I mean, he became like, he became right, but to?
Speaker 1:do that at the Ryder Cup. To your point, right, like to exude that amount of energy to be in those moments, like Seve was and you were there and you could feel it, like I could feel it with Tiger on 18 at Augusta, like I mean, it just literally sucks the energy out of everything else. And to your point, there is absolutely no way to play five matches and sustain that same level for all five. There's just no way.
Speaker 2:I was at Brookline in 99 and watched all three days of that and it was, you know, it was a very similar Pattern to what, almost what played out today.
Speaker 2:Europe were imperious for the first two days, they built a big lead, but then America came out on that last day, team USA came out on that last day, and they started putting red on the board. And once you can change that momentum, once you can sow that seed, once you can, you know, just just plant that doubt in the opposition mind and also that Uncapitalized, on the fact that a team had had played their hearts out, had literally Played so well over the first two days and they were tired, there's no doubt about it. And obviously there were mistakes made by mark mark James, who was the european captain that year. He didn't put out, you know, andrew Coltart, he didn't put out Yame Samblin until the singles they hadn't played and Andrew Coltart went out against Tiger Woods at Brookline. I mean, you know what chance have you got? But you know, I I was there on the 17th when Justin Leonard hold that part against Jose Maria. Really, yeah.
Speaker 1:I was up a tree being shouted at by, Um uh sort of Massachusetts police officer not the first time you've been I shouted at from being up a tree right Well so, certainly by american police officer, but it was an extraordinary and it was.
Speaker 2:It was a really feebrile atmosphere that day. I mean it was that was the time that I remember really thinking, even post keawa, that the rider cup has really changed. Now this is really hostile and going, going to play away, and maybe that template had been set by what happened at keawa. But you know, going to play away was a he was walking into the sort of lines. Then it was, it was entering the bear pit. But you know what happened on that day and I did fear a little bit for europe today. I did fear that if Team usa started getting read on the board, started sort of build leads. But you know, over the first two days I think it was, it wasn't until the third session on day the, the second session rather, on day two, the four balls that team usa had held a lead of three up in any game. Two up was the biggest lead they'd built. And you know, as we know, europe won the foursome seven one. They were miles ahead after two days. So they just never had that ability to put the foot down and actually move clear and actually start to Send that sort of that pulse of anxiety through the other team. And that's what happened at brookline and, and you know the result was a phenomenal comeback by by team usa, just as it was at medina, you know, for the, for the miracle of medina, it can happen. So there is a, you know there is precedent for that, but it just seemed that the, you know, the american players couldn't really put their foot to the floor, couldn't put their, you know, couldn't hit the gas in a sufficient way.
Speaker 2:And also europe had those, those totems in John rom, rory mackereloy, you know you had a fantastic rider cup. He was unbeaten three and a half out of four points. Rory, four out of five. Hovland was just fantastic and Ram as well, of course. You know I mean, some of the, some of the golf shots he hit were just extraordinary. And you know we talk about Sevi and you know I heard an interview with Ram afterwards in which he talked about how Jose Merela Athabal had said to him, I think after, you know, after one of the one of the matches on Saturday, he said you reminded me of somebody today. And he was put, he was doing stuff that was otherworldly, he was superhuman some of the stuff he was doing. But can I?
Speaker 1:tell you my theory about John Rom that I don't think anybody else has ever said. Here's my theory on John Rom. Okay, you remember the movie, the movie major league with Charlie Charlie Sheen, right? Yeah, so he's in major league, right? You remember they had the hitter that hadn't had any hits all season and he would pray to Jobu and he was giving them, like you know, live chickens and whiskey and everything. And like, praying to Jobu, like I'm convinced that they just bring all the Sevi stuff out and that's like them, praying to the spirit of Sevi, come inside of John Rom, because there is zero doubt in my mind that John Rom has encapsulated and embodied Sevi Bayesteros. And just during the writer, like that shot he hit on 17 to end it yesterday was just absolutely mind boggling good. I mean that golf ball tried to turn three different directions and in the middle of the shot and like it was just willed to go, I'm surprised it didn't go in. That was. The surprising part about that shot is that it didn't go in the hole.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he was, he was, he was just incredible throughout. I mean I lost count of how many other worldly golf shots John Rom hit during it. He was a man inspired and I think you know he mentioned Sevi after winning the Masters. Sevi is obviously a huge influence on him on Spanish golf but on European golf, I mean that generation of players that Sevi led. I mean he he played in the Ryder Cup, you know, in the 83 Ryder Cup in PGA National where Europe came really really close and he hit one of the greatest shots of all time.
Speaker 2:That sadly was never captured on television because the telecast hadn't started and he was in the first match out against Fuzzy Zella and hit a three-wood out of a fairway bunker from 240 yards up near the lip with a Tony Penner, per Sim and three wouldn't just carved this ball, you know, got its turn in the air like 40 yards and found a green guarded by water and managed to make a five.
Speaker 2:That was his third shot because he hacked his second into a bunker from thick rough. I mean the guy was capable of pulling out these shots in the moment, you know, when the moment called for it and when you know, come at the hour. Come at the man that was Sevi all over and there was something about playing, playing the Americans that brought out the absolute best in him. And I think the same with Ram. I mean the strange thing is that you know three of the three of the European side of an American accent. I mean John Ram's got a pretty American accent, ludwig A Berg or Orberg has got, you know, has basically been schooled in the States, and then Sepsdraker I think. I think he lives in Texas.
Speaker 2:So you know he's lived over there for a long time.
Speaker 2:But there's something about them and they come together about representing Europe and you know it can be seen as a cliché and I know there are certain American fans who get tired of the reference to Sevi, but you only had to see the huge sort of flag that was that was sort of unfurled across the massive grandstand around the first tee.
Speaker 2:You know the fact that the players had, you know, sevi's sort of image embroidered underneath their rider cup sort of insignia on their shirts. You know what happened at Medina. You know they had Jose Maria Lathabal there, who was this sort of living, you know the living connection between that era that Sevi completely spearheaded you know with it, which included the lights of Nick Faldo and Bernard Langer and Sandy Lyle and Ian Woosam and all those sorts of amazing players. But you know Lathabal is the bridge and there were all sorts of things around the rider cup and I think you know they even in the team dressing room they had an extra locker for Sevi. Yes, I think that you know. I think if it didn't really mean something, there would be a certain element of eye roll amongst the European players. But it really does mean something, even to like players.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't, I don't buy into that stuff, but it doesn't mean anything to the players and like no, no, no it and like the whole. You know, I think it was a story that somebody put out to gain some recognition. But the whole story about you know how shawfully and can't lay were, you know, kind of at odds for not getting paid. You know, I'm on the, I'm always on the fan, I'm always on the side of the players getting paid, and the reason is is because the rider cup generates an enormous amount of money and if none of that money is going to the players, then I have a real problem with it, because they're why we tune in. It's always about the players. You can tell me it's tradition, this, that or the other, but we all tune in to watch the best players hit the most terrific shots. So I'm always, always, always in fan of them getting paid. But I don't think the story was true.
Speaker 1:I think that those guys, it means something to all of them, and you know whether you're an American or European, you know I don't know that the fans necessarily get it, but the players definitely do, and anybody that's on on one of those players teams gets it too. You know I've talked to quite a few coaches this week who are over working with players at the rider cop and you know just the text messages I've shared with them has been really cool and insightful and you know just the moments that they're having just being, you know, very small contributing part of that. It changes everybody's life right, like everybody that goes keeps mementos, everybody hangs on to that stuff and it's the stories you tell your grandchildren. So I definitely think it means a lot to the players.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know Patrick Cantlay has obviously been the sort of villain of the piece. You know amongst team, you know European fans, but also probably amongst some American fans as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they go after the poor guy constantly.
Speaker 2:There's been a lot of backlash, but the guy was a rock star, you know. He played really, really well this week and, like anybody who's getting that much stick from that many people you know walking off every tier, along every fairway and they're waving hats at him and he's still there and he's still battling and he was still pulling out these clutch shots at clutch times. I find it impossible to believe that it doesn't matter to somebody like that. He might have an issue, like you say, with the amount of money that's been made, you know, for different organizations and that maybe he's not going into his pocket, but they do get $200,000 to donate to a charity of their choice.
Speaker 1:So they you know there is, which is a tax write off right.
Speaker 2:So let's be honest yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that's the way that you write down your taxes, a little bit for people that don't know how you work the system.
Speaker 2:But like, okay, like but it's not.
Speaker 1:That's not why anybody's there, right? And I agree. The one thing I will agree with is Zach Johnson said in one of his press conferences was you know people would pay to play in this? And he's absolutely telling the truth, right? Because I think that you know the upset is. A few of the names are that I mentioned that aren't there. You know, given the opportunity to pay a couple million and be there on Sunday to go out for a singles match, I bet they would have paid it to be there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it's a totally unique experience. Every single player talks about that. It's unlike anything else. And these, you know many of them have won major championships. Virtually all of them have won big tournaments. In fact all of them have and some of them have sort of Hall of Fame careers. But there is nothing like a rider cup for putting you in that sort of crucible of pressure, to experience pressure, and you know the pressure of not only performing in front of crowds like that and that must feel like that but for your teammates, and all the players talk about this.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you can see why I would take away from this rider cup. Here's what I would take away from the American side. If you're a betting man and I know that the double D likes to the way- to you, like you pound here and there.
Speaker 1:I'll tell you what. I think that this was the beginning, and I'm saying it here first on the making the turn podcast, I think that this is kind of the beginning of the real coming out party for one, mr Max Homa. I think he played rock solid. I think that really did a lot to build his confidence. His team that he has around him is impeccable. He works with one, mr Mark Blackburn, I believe. If I'm not mistaken, mark Blackburn had, I believe, four players in the rider cup with this pretty darn good and he's got a great team. He seems to be finding a lot of confidence and seems to have maybe found his footing. And I would hate to be having to beat him on a Sunday when it's coming down the stretch with the confidence of what it took for him to make that seven and a half footer, to keep it going and to keep the dream alive, because that's what I would be thinking about every competitive tournament the rest of my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that the really interesting thing about what he did on 18 is it showed such clear thinking at a time when he had every right for his brain to be completely scrambled. You know, to take the drop to back himself, to get up and down to assess the situation as it was unfolding. And you're right, he played fantastic golf. He was an undoubted star of the American team. I think that Cantley deserves a lot of credit as well, for where he performed.
Speaker 1:Yeah for taking the stick and playing that way, 100%. But I mean, I just think that when you look at who really stood out and, like you know, if you were walking out the gate of the Ryder Cup today and you were like, oh, it was a great show. You know, who do you think we ought to keep an eye on next? You know, like kind of like you do after a movie, picking an actor that you're like I definitely think that Max Pomer's, the guy that stood out, had his shoulders above everybody else.
Speaker 2:He hit a lot of great looking shots. So didn't him. And he's got a great swing and actually some of the you know seeing the flight of the ball from you know down the line he just seemed to be, just it was on a rope, you know he was playing. He just seemed to be striking his eye and so well, he seemed to be thinking his way around the golf course. Well, very cool under pressure. And I think, like you say, he had a good president's cup last time out.
Speaker 2:He's performed really well in a faltering US side. He's proven himself and now it will be really interesting to see if he can take that next step on in his career. He's already, you know, an elite performer. He was, you know, he had a good season. He was probably about fourth or fifth in terms of form coming into, coming into the Ryder Cup in the US team and I think it will now obviously the one, the one sort of black mark on his record at the moment, if you'd like, is his performances and majors. Can he use that experience now to take that away and think, okay, I've actually performed in the harshest crucible of all. I'm going to back myself now because he's never really done it in a major yet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't think he's going to waste that opportunity. I definitely think he's going to learn from this and take it forward. And you know, I just think it would be hard to imagine that, you know, the team that he works with would would not build around this moving forward. You know.
Speaker 2:I think you kind of have to. Who do you, who do you think who would you say the same about? From Team Europe? I mean, who surprised you from Team Europe? I mean Bobby. You know, I think it was interesting that that you know Bob McIntyre had a lot of negative press coming in, wasn't playing that well, didn't really have his best stuff, but he was still unbeaten. I don't necessarily think, I don't necessarily think he's going to go on and do something amazing next season.
Speaker 1:I think he's going to have a better career than he would have. I think he'll definitely grow from it right and probably go out there and compete at a little higher level. But you're right, I don't, I don't think that he's the one you know, interestingly enough, and it's the easy answer. You know, when I look at you know kind of what is chalk. You know, for the Ryder Cup, you know John Rom summoning the spirits of Sevi, like we were talking about, like that seems pretty on brand for John Rom, like I don't, I don't know that he necessarily takes anything away other than just more kind of lure around the Ryder Cup and what he is as a Ryder Cup player.
Speaker 1:But I really think that you know, rory really surprised a lot of people and I almost kind of feel like this was kind of him finally letting go of the PGA tour live battle in regards to you know, he kind of went through that and then it kind of fizzled out and then Rory was kind of made to look like, you know, a mouthpiece for the PGA and it didn't really. It was pretty anticlimactic really and Rory never got a chance to even have a rebuttal to that. It was just kind of onto the next news cycle. And then I think that this, really, rory is tired of being walked on. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:And I think that I don't think that anything that happened on 18 yesterday was really all that absurd. I just think it was the wrong time at the right time, sort of thing. Right, yeah, or the wrong thing at the right time, and I think that Rory's frustrations boiled over. But the thing that was impressive and I don't know, but it would be scary if we got that Rory to show up at the majors Like that was that Rory that showed up this morning was pissed off and determined and like he wasn't going to get beat.
Speaker 2:Like he that was To go four out of five. You know that after what happened at Whistling Straight there was a lot of pressure on him. Obviously, the question mark about the long major drought continues and it will come back at, you know, when April rolls around and we come around to Augusta and of course that will start again. But he will put a lot, I think, in the locker from what happened this week. I think you're right about Rahm. I mean, rahm is on a great trajectory. I think Hovland you know no surprises. He played well. He was the most informed player on both sides coming into the tournament and he just continued to play in the world.
Speaker 1:Because I don't know, like normally when you look at a guy like Scottie Scheffler, right, like you know he kind of breaks all the rules. His footwork's kind of all over the place. He quote, unquote, early extends. He just breaks a lot of the rules that instructors think that exist within golf. But you know it's easy to point to Scottie and go, well, you know it's putting. You know, especially from short range can be an Achilles heel, right, like you could see how he kind of the rails come off and all of a sudden he can't make a five footer for a couple months in a row. That would make sense. But when you look at Victor, you know he first off he's been a very well known commodity since college. Okay, like I know that most Americans are typically late to the story, but you know Victor's been a very known commodity since he came out of Oklahoma and has just been an absolute flusher ever since he stepped foot on the PGA tour and he's been known as that since day one. And the thing is is and it's been very well documented.
Speaker 1:At a point he was not as good at chipping as he was the other skills. It doesn't mean like he couldn't chip and we couldn't, of course he could, he was on the PGA tour but the work he's done with Joe Mayo, with his short game and the confidence that he has in that short game like this, isn't just he's confident and it's working. Now they actually changed it and now it works for him and he understands how to make it work. And he doesn't do anything amazing. He really doesn't. He hits fairways, he hits greens, he makes putts and like when you're just kind of one of those whole hum guys and he seems to be pretty much, you know, nothing seems to really bother him too much in terms of the added pressure from winning big events. Like dude, I don't know what's going to beat that guy.
Speaker 2:I mean he looks pretty dangerous for next year. I mean he's just on such a steep trajectory. I mean his chipping was below two average. We saw that. We looked at his clip data and he was below two. But his trajectory with his short game has been really really impressive. He's now he's now got a really. He's now got a really strong short game.
Speaker 1:It might not be elite yet, but it's certainly better than better than two average At the US Open at Brookline when he hit it into the face of that bunker to lose the open right, Like he was coming down the stretch when he drilled that six or seven iron right into the face of that bunker and that was essentially the tournament right.
Speaker 1:That was it for Victor. I swear. The reason that he tried to even hit that shot was because he didn't have the confidence he has today in his short game and he was trying to hit a shot there to knock it near or on the green because he didn't want to have to pitch or chip that ball. I swear, and I know that I get it like. I know he had already made the change with Joe and all that stuff, but at the same time I would be willing to bet that he would go full Max Homa here, hit a wedge out of that bunker now lay up, chip up, make the par and move on, instead of trying to take that shot on, which effectively took him out of that tournament. I think he made a decision there and said, OK, like now I got to start trusting this thing and I really got to like learn how to do this because, under the gun, this is what's separating me from them.
Speaker 2:Well, the interesting thing is, he's clearly got a growth mindset, hasn't he? He's very easy to say I'm going to take the lessons of a painful defeat. And it was I think it was PGA, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, pga, thank you.
Speaker 2:And he took the lessons from that and he's worked on it and he's not he's not sort of allowed it to be an anchor around his, around his ankles. He's, he's moved forwards from it. I mean, I think the interesting thing on the team year will be players like Hatton and Fleetwood, I mean both of them are top 20 players.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're both. They're both. They're both really good players. But can they now make that breakthrough? Can they now go through that sort of glass ceiling to the next level? I mean I think it will be happens been knocking on the door for a while.
Speaker 1:Fleetwood obviously hasn't won in the States but has had a really good season and danger of being mean spirited and I don't want to be. I really I loved Harold Hatton. I think he's amazing, and Tommy Fleetwood as well. But you know, I kind of thought the same thing double D when, you know, obviously Fleetwood became the closer there. I would have liked to have seen Tommy make that three and a half footer to close it out, because I think he would have learned something from that. But I kind of thought to myself about it. You know, did Tommy grow from this? But at the end of the day, you know, I think if Tommy would have had to go out there to win that tournament for Europe and face the pressure, knowing that it was going to come down to him for three days in a row, I don't necessarily know that Tommy would have showed up the same way. It felt kind of back, dory, you know what I mean Like you just happened to be a random guy.
Speaker 2:I think it's a. I think it's a, it's, it's a. It's an interesting point. I mean, obviously, the. You know the way he played with Molinari. He was fantastic and they went for no for the first two days and then he didn't quite have anything left in the town for the singles. He is a great partner. He's a great team player. He's hugely valued by his teammates. He's a great guy. Everybody loves Tommy Fleetwood. He's got a wonderful swing. He strikes a ball. He's a winner.
Speaker 2:He just, I don't think he wins enough for that level of talent and that ball striking ability that he has, which is, you know, which is elite.
Speaker 1:I get in trouble for saying this, but there is a level right, Like there is. You know, certain people have the it factor, the killer mindset or whatever you want to call it right, Like Tiger is a winner and Tiger is not like beloved by all, Like Tiger rubs a lot of people the wrong way because he kind of has that I'm a winner mindset and generally, like I mean I kind of think the same of Sergio, you know, I mean I thought it was amazing that we just watched a Ryder Cup that didn't have Sergio Garcia and it didn't have probably Mr Ryder Cup himself and we know that would be Mr Ian Polter. Right, Like, think about it, Neither one of those guys were there for Europe and you didn't even notice. Like it's unreal. I thought when they announced the changes and those two guys wouldn't be there, like I didn't think it would be the same. But I'll be, I'll be darned, it really was. But those guys, really I thought it was interesting how it all played out.
Speaker 2:I really did, yeah it was a great Ryder Cup. I mean, there's nothing, nothing like the Ryder Cup. I know that's a cliche, but it is unique. I feel sort of emotionally spent after the last three days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just just imagine having the Soulheim Cup with it, though. Imagine having the Soulheim Cup with it. Man, that would have been so cool.
Speaker 2:It was a big opportunity Miss, wasn't it the fact that they had the Soulheim Cup and the Ryder Cup in consecutive weeks in Europe, the opportunity to market them together? And I think Stacy Lewis made the point that she sort of tried to do outreach to the PGA. She tried to see whether there were opportunities to be able to market the two events together. And I think that the women's game is on such an amazing uptick at the moment. There are so many great players around. But you know, in the States Double D.
Speaker 1:It was so hard, like the coverage was on, you know, not on any mainstream, like you had to go to Peacock to find the coverage and then, like, even trying to find just scoring updates online, I mean very difficult, even on the LPGA website, which I really that's that really frustrated me the most was the fact that, going to the LPGA website, I still couldn't find, like they had some stuff, but I mean it wasn't like, you know, just give me some live scoring man, like let me know how the matches stand, because I'm trying to follow this and I want to be engaged, and that's where I think we really don't don't hit the mark, because, you're right, the Ryder Cup has been amazing. I'm emotionally spent, you know, and it's been fun. But what could we tie the, the golf consumer, over with? Well, we could do, you know, ryder Cup every two, soulheim every two, and dude, it's fun, like these are fun events, right? So, you know, we could literally get it going to where the guys that like to go and support the men at the Ryder Cup Heck, those people would probably love to go to the Soulheim Cup too, and you're going to see the same level of golf. It's not like the women don't play as well as the men.
Speaker 1:I mean, I thought the Soulheim Cup was amazing. I thought that the European team obviously did an amazing job. But you know, I think honestly, if you look I know Stacy gets a lot of credit for using analytics as well but if you look at how the Soulheim team the European Soulheim team beat the American team and you look at how the Ryder Cup teams were beaten, it was a very similar style. The Europeans just really had a more well thought out plan that they executed. Simple as that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that the United States, the access to the golfing world, has shifted sort of you know, so strongly towards the United States over the last 15, 20 years that Europe need to, as we discussed at the outset, they need to explore every opportunity to find an edge, and they did that very successfully at the Solheim Cup and they did that very successfully at the Ryder Cup. And the big test now will be can they do something that a Ryder Cup team hasn't done for a long time since Medina, which is to win on away soil? And it's going to be very, very tough at Beth Page, as we know, and I think after the atmosphere we've seen in Rome, then the crowds at Beth Page are going to be totally up for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that New York loves a chance to show off when it comes to who's got the craziest fans. You know, it's like the only thing that could be crazier is as soon as it's over. If we went to Boston, because Boston would, boston would be sure to one up them. But you know, I mean, when you're talking about the Northeast and you're talking about sports, you're talking about very, very passionate sports fans people. So I think it'll be great. I hope, I hope that it maintains some level of respect.
Speaker 1:Obviously, you know, as a fan, you know I've been to a lot of these events, as have you. It's like, yeah, you know, like that is part of the fun. But it's fun to like wave your hat at somebody right, like I think that that was kind of a good fun kind of thing with Patrick and the crowd the whole week. But you know, when you start talking about players, wives and stuff like that and shining lights, and I think that gets a bit disrespectful. And as long as we don't cross that line, you know, I'm all for it because I do think it certainly adds an element to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. I just I just don't like, as I said earlier, I don't like hearing voices from the crowd going hit it in the water, miss it, shank it, you're a cheat. You know he wasn't a cheat. You know somebody shouted you're a cheat. You know when he took the drop. When Max Homer took the drop on on 18, he wasn't a cheat, he was actually. You know, he had an unplayable lie where he was very likely just going to flub it into the bunker and he made a really smart choice and actually that gold fan if he is indeed a goal for the guy who shouted cheat would have something to learn from what Max Homer did on the 18th actually to be present and in the moment and think, okay, what is the best course of action here? I mean, it obviously helps when you've got a short game like Max Homer's, but the shot he, it was incredible.
Speaker 1:The shot. I mean I, the decision. You're absolutely right. I couldn't agree with you more Like. As a coach, my heart is singing right. Like that a player was present and made a good decision and like, didn't just go attack that pen and hit it in the water and take themselves out of the hole or whatever the case may be, but you're the shot that he hit like, because the thing is is, you know that as soon as he walked up and saw how bad that lie was and as great as he is, it's self regulating, I'm sure your heart rate is still jacked. You know what I mean. Like to walk up and to just almost you know that there's that thought that crosses your head. I'm done Right, like, and you, just you have that moment and luckily, I have that on the first tee generally.
Speaker 2:I have that. I put a club in my hand.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I know you're right, I just thought there was.
Speaker 2:I just I don't, you know, to your point, I don't. I just think that I hope that it doesn't cross the line with the Ryder Cup. I mean, at times it borders on it and at times it does cross over. I think that what I've always been proud about, about being a British golf fan, is the way that, you know, visiting players when they come and play in the open championship would talk about knowledgeable galleries who would actually clap, it's true, it's all true, clap great shots that were hit to. You know they recognize a good shot. The good shot doesn't have to be within two foot of the pin. Sometimes it can be finding a green, you know, finding the fat of the green from a really difficult spot in a crosswind.
Speaker 2:You know, we're talking really here about the open championship and that is a very different vibe to the Ryder Cup. I mean, they're two completely separate things. But I do think that spirit of respect, that spirit of being able to applaud a good shot, even if you're, it's very clear about which team you're supporting and who you're pulling for and who you're rooting for, I just don't. I hope that that doesn't go out of the game entirely, because I don't really appreciate players being booed and stuff like that. I mean, you know we're watching these guys to your point about, to your point about the players being paid. You know they are the stars of the show. They are pulling out the most unbelievable golf shots and playing the most unbelievable golf under the most extreme pressure and that makes for great theatre and that's why, you know, so many thousands of people travel to Rome. That's why so many millions of people watch it on TV. That's why there's so many billions of comments on social media.
Speaker 1:We're talking about it right now, man.
Speaker 2:And we're talking about it.
Speaker 1:Right, you know I mean it's, it is. It really is an amazing event and at the, at the at the risk of sounding like a traditionalist, you know I agree. You know I, I love. You know I have a single strap bag. I love carrying it, I like walking.
Speaker 1:You know it doesn't mean that I'm against music on the golf course, it doesn't mean I'm against. I played with a gentleman yesterday who played with bare feet. You know I'm good with that, like I'm not against these things. It's just at the end of the day, though, when it comes to these special events, I do hope that we do stay a little bit more with the traditional side of it and and always make sure that we keep respect at the center of the competition, because I really don't like I mean I was watching, been a big Colorado football fan this season so far.
Speaker 1:I really like what coach prime's done. But you know I saw that video come out of kind of how that team, how the Colorado team, was acting towards the Oregon team prior to the game, and you know I don't, I don't think I want that for golf. You know I just I don't like the, the ultra macho stuff, the, the, the crazy alpha. You know, I just I don't think golf needs that because at the end of the day, golf's hard enough just trying to beat the golf course. You add, you know, a person into that. I mean, dude, you got your hands full. So like, let's just keep it all respect and and and compete.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I was really disappointed to hear what Brian Harmon said and this is no criticism of Brian Harmon after the, after his open championship win and we were at the, you know, we were at Hoy Lake together, deutch, and we watched a lot of golf that week but I thought he was a fantastic winner. He played lights out golf for a week. He'd lapped the field. He was, you know, clearly the best golfer that week. And just because he isn't necessarily one of these sort of marquee names or these sort of rock stars of the game, that didn't matter to me. I just think you've got to identify the best winner.
Speaker 2:And actually there was a guy, I think on the final day, who he had ejected from the crowd, from the galleries, because he was literally on his case and shouting miss it. Yeah, he was putting his putter back. And you know what I take, that I sort of take that personally because I'm proud of the fact that British and European particularly British, you know golf fans and golf crowds and galleries are knowledgeable and they, like you know, they appreciate good golf and they're happy to show that appreciation. And I don't like it when, when people overstep the mark or people, you know, besmirch our reputation, and I think that while the the beautiful thing right is like for one guy that messed that up like you're talking about.
Speaker 1:But you know, man, they had to be removed for ribbon, you know. So actually, double D absolutely saved me. He wasn't there on Sunday and the weather was really really terrible on Sunday. So the double D saved me a bunch and gave me a pass to get into one of the large media centers. So I was in there for a good majority of the front nine and it was funny because everybody was watching the TVs and this thing, right, and it's packed because the weather's so bad, everybody's just trying to stay dry and warm.
Speaker 1:But every time Brian would like miss a shot or like it wouldn't be like going, the whole everybody would cheer, right, but it was like such a it wasn't like you suck kind of cheer, it was like everybody was just having good fun because it was pretty obvious that Brian wasn't going. You know what I mean and and that's fun, right, Like that's what the Ryder Cup should be like. A good ribbing is fun, but, to your point, when you're trying to actually get in the way and make yourself part of the story, that's when I have a problem with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, hopefully, you know I think it was a great Ryder Cup. You know there's always a few, there's always. There's always times when it's, you know, it goes over the margins or or things get a little bit out of hand. But I do think it was a fantastic Ryder Cup. There was amazing passion showed by the crowds, by the players. There was an X, you know, extremely high level of golf from both teams, particularly Europe, over the first two days and even on the final day there was some. There was some fantastic golf and I think you know what you said earlier on about, you know, the players almost having to have their nerve ends singed a bit to actually get back into that, that competition mode. It almost felt like it was two days of Ryder Cup competition that singed the nerve ends of the American team to be able for that, for some of them to come out and play. You know as well as they did. I mean Jordan Spieth was, I think he was like six or seven under or something, and so was Larry, but you know Spieth hadn't been there for for two days. So it was, it was a great.
Speaker 2:It was a great Ryder Cup. They, they, they, you know they invariably are, even if the results hasn't been closed for quite some time now, and I think a lot of people wanted a close outcome. We didn't necessarily get one, although it did definitely get squeaky bum time, as they say in the UK at various times on the on the final day, but I think 16 and a half, 11, half, is a fair result. I think it's a fair reflection of the the, the disparity between the two teams. I think that the way that they prepared, the way that they were set up, I think a five point margin probably probably an accurate reflection.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I honestly think that, to your point, I think the Americans really rallied around some of the, some of the stuff, you know, that was going on in the media and all that, and I'm sure some clarity will come about, all that. You know, I'm a big believer in the fact that I really disagree with how the US team was set up in the first place, which led to the captaincy of Zach. But, with all that being said, you know, I really think that at some point, we really need to look at how we're going to go about doing this, because you're seeing that the Europeans are taking this very seriously and I think that the US now has to, you know, have a rebuttal for that, obviously, when we get to 25 in New York. So it'll be very interesting, right?
Speaker 1:I think that it's just one of those things to where, you know, at the end of the day, we need to stop trying to necessarily just, you know, rest on tradition and the fact that you know, on paper, we should win this thing by a mile and we need to really start thinking about, you know, what are the differentiators?
Speaker 1:Who's going to be on our team, who are going to be the difference makers and, most importantly, we. I think we really need to start doing what Europe does, an amazing job of which is grooming that next generation right, like Justin Rose as I said earlier, one of my all time favorite players, and I would say he definitely stepped into that Ian Polter role, you know, and he was kind of out there and really just did an amazing job. I felt like if kind of shepherding some of the young players which you saw, you know, john Rom doing earlier in the week, and I think that that's smart right. I think that the Ryder Cup is something very serious for the European team and, as an American, I would really like to see us take it more seriously and put together a better product.
Speaker 2:But something that's very, very important for the European tour, the DP World Tour as it's now known. You know it hasn't. It's really suffered from the so called strategic alliance. You know it is very much now a sort of feeder circuit. Success in the Ryder Cup is enormous for it, both in terms of both on a financial basis but also on a sort of status level. To just to reaffirm that there are some fantastic players coming out of Europe. Most of them might spend most of their time playing in the United States, but there's a good number of those guys that play a number of events in Europe still as well, and Justin Rose. Justin Rose is obviously going to be a Ryder Cup captain in the future. I'd like to see Luke Donalds captain again in at Beth Page. I think he did a fantastic job. I think it was a return to that sort of level of meticulous, you know, making sure that no stone was left unturned, that approach that Paul McGinley and others super classy to super he was.
Speaker 2:He was very classy. I mean, he was always a classy player, wasn't he? I mean, he swung the club beautifully, he always dressed really nicely, he spoke really well. He was just. He's a he's a classy individual, and I think he's kind of like.
Speaker 1:You know, I always tell people I don't really worry about presidents because, you know, very, very rarely do I? I think president decisions get to me. You know, by the time they go that far downstream and you know, I just at the end of the day, want my president to be very presidential, I want him to look good on TV and like, not offend anybody, right? So you know, Luke Donald, I think definitely, definitely did that part of it, but obviously had the substance to go with that as well and I thought that he was really classy. I thought that the way that he answered questions, even though the questions were obviously very American biased, I thought he did a great job of backing up his players and supporting his team and he didn't know a way to where he didn't tear down the Americans to do it. You know, he just found a way to stay classy and above it the whole time, which is no small feat given how high passions obviously run at these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he talked about creating a culture and then allowing those players to step into that culture and then succeed and, and you know, have everything at their disposal to be able to perform and execute, and that's what they did. So I'd love to see Luke. Luke Donald, I agree, I've given two more years, yeah, anyway, deuce, well, listen, it was a great ride, the cup. It was, you know, great. Talking to you about it, I feel like, you know, I can't believe it can be two more years until we have another one. But you know, I just think back, finally, to what Jordan Spieth said. After whistling straights, he said you know, this was great. We had a 1711 win, we gave Europe a massive beatdown, but this is unfinished business. We need to go over to Europe and win in Europe in order for this to really be seen to be a dynasty. And unfortunately, that dynasty for Team USA, team USA, that dynasty was exposed as being something of a sham.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just think it really is going to come down to. You know, there's going to have to be a systematic change. I mean, and that's what I think European team did after whistling straights and I really think that's what the US team is going to have to do as well. And you know, honestly, if we play American golf right, which is very soft and long and it's very easy to throw out targets, you know generally chalk wins on that and I think whistling straights is definitely one of those places to where, if the wind and the weather doesn't intervene, it's a pretty wide and generous golf course. So I'm not surprised that the Americans had the big win there. But you know, as we've talked about and as we will talk about down the road, you know playing golf in Europe is very different than playing golf in the US and I don't think that many of your top US players spend very much time other than maybe the open championships. You know playing golf in Europe.
Speaker 2:So I think in terms of real. Here's a start for you, Duc. Sorry to jump in. Of the 12 players, take out Brooks Kepko, who obviously cut his teeth on the European tour and the challenge tour before that. What about it? Of the remaining 11 players, only three of them had ever played a tournament on Mainland Europe. I mean, there you go. Do you take out the Scottish Open and take out the Open Championship, Both those taking place not on Mainland Europe but in the UK? Yeah, Only three of them had ever played a tournament in Mainland Europe. And I think that what you know what the European tour has done, with tournaments being staged in different countries, different temperatures, different climates it does produce a well-rounded golfer. A golfer is used to compete on different terrains and different grass types and different conditions, and you know, I think that that makes for not only a better-rounded golfer, but often a better-rounded individual, and I think that that's what really came out at Market so many this week.
Speaker 1:I don't disagree at all. I mean, as an American, you know, I want to beat on my chest and scream USA, and like shotgun a beer, but at the same time, like you know, it's just true. I mean, I think the Europeans outclassed us. I think that, honestly, I think the American team was beat before they ever showed up. And that's a tough thing to say and swallow as an American who has pride in this.
Speaker 1:But you know, my hat's off man. I just I think that we were caught with our pants down. I think we thought it was going to be another whistling straights and you know, big bad Ian Polter and Sergio Garcia aren't there to come out of nowhere to save the European team. So you know, we're just going to go over there and stop them. And you know, I think you saw the backbone of Sevi I'm not sure if it was the spine or the last shirt he wore that they put in that locker, but it was something, man. And you know, europe just kind of had this quiet determination all week and it just kind of felt like, you know, you never really lost sense of the feeling that they were going to pull it out in the end. Yeah, amen to that.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I'm looking forward to talking. You know we've got a number of guests lined up for reaching the turn, finding the turn Making the turn. Yeah, we'll cut that.
Speaker 1:We'll get that. No, you're fine. No, we do, and you're absolutely right. This has been great.
Speaker 1:We actually shot another episode as a primer for this whole podcast, but then, with the Ryder Cup happening and the results, we just figured that this would be more fun and less about me and Double D, which more people will probably find entertaining.
Speaker 1:So he is exactly right, and the Making the Turn podcast will be available wherever you get your podcast, as well as YouTube, and we do look forward to having some amazing guests, most of which we actually have already signed up, but we're going to be very secretive and not tell you about. But we're looking forward to debuting some amazing conversations with some amazing people not necessarily all golf people and not necessarily all people that you know, but, generally speaking, we want to make this a very fun conversation for you to listen to and maybe engage you with some topics and people that you haven't heard from before. So, as always, it's been a great time having Double D on here with me. I am the Dooch, as I am known when I cross the pond, so we really appreciate you tuning, I am the Dooch, so thank you so much. Make sure to download this podcast so you never miss your next episode, and head on over to YouTube and subscribe to it there as well. So thanks again and until next time, keep grinding.