Step into the captivating sphere of golf course architecture with us, where intricacies and subtleties transform a round of golf into a mesmerizing experience. We're thrilled to welcome Dave Sampson, the brilliant mind behind the celebrated Marco Simone Ryder Cup venue, who shares invaluable insights into the design process and the nail-biting anticipation leading to the event. We take the time to appreciate the nuances that enhance a golf course's charm and the hospitality units' indispensable role in creating an immersive atmosphere.
Drawing on data analysis, we plunge into a compelling discussion on the contrasts in American and European golf styles. From the perspective of a seasoned golf course architect like Dave Sampson, every course is a playground of strategic temptations and creative opportunities. We dissect the unique grass mix on the fairways and the terrain's elevation changes, discussing how these elements played into the Europeans' hands.
As we journey into the heart of the strategy and postmortem of the Ryder Cup, we unveil some hard truths about the American team's learning curve. We illuminate the strategies that worked, the ones that fell short, and the steps taken towards improvement, focusing on tournament readiness and course insight. Moreover, we relish the thrill of Marco Simone's Ryder Cup course design, accentuating the exhilaration injected by the elevation changes, raised greens, and substantial runoffs. Experience the magic of golf course architecture and strategy with us in this enthralling episode.
Step into the captivating sphere of golf course architecture with us, where intricacies and subtleties transform a round of golf into a mesmerizing experience. We're thrilled to welcome Dave Sampson, the brilliant mind behind the celebrated Marco Simone Ryder Cup venue, who shares invaluable insights into the design process and the nail-biting anticipation leading to the event. We take the time to appreciate the nuances that enhance a golf course's charm and the hospitality units' indispensable role in creating an immersive atmosphere.
Drawing on data analysis, we plunge into a compelling discussion on the contrasts in American and European golf styles. From the perspective of a seasoned golf course architect like Dave Sampson, every course is a playground of strategic temptations and creative opportunities. We dissect the unique grass mix on the fairways and the terrain's elevation changes, discussing how these elements played into the Europeans' hands.
As we journey into the heart of the strategy and postmortem of the Ryder Cup, we unveil some hard truths about the American team's learning curve. We illuminate the strategies that worked, the ones that fell short, and the steps taken towards improvement, focusing on tournament readiness and course insight. Moreover, we relish the thrill of Marco Simone's Ryder Cup course design, accentuating the exhilaration injected by the elevation changes, raised greens, and substantial runoffs. Experience the magic of golf course architecture and strategy with us in this enthralling episode.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Making the Term podcast featuring Double D and the Deut.
Speaker 1:And we are really excited because we are still coming off an incredible Ryder Cup to, where we saw an amazing performance by the European team taking down the American team.
Speaker 1:But I think one of the stars that has really emerged post Ryder Cup has been Marco Simone and the amazing venue that it was for this incredible venue.
Speaker 1:So I know, unfortunately there's been a little bit of extra press for the golf club and the recent weeks with the, it looked like one of maybe the big hospitality tents are catching a blaze and that certainly is one way to take them down if you don't want to use them again. So I'm not sure if they were trying to save a little time or if it was an actual accident. But long story short, we're very fortunate because one of the leading designers for Marco Simone, mr Dave Samson from the European Golf Design Company, is with us and he is going to join us and explain to us the fine art that is golf course architecture, so that guys like myself can understand, because this is definitely where Double D has the upper hand on the Deut. So I'm going to let Dan probably give him a little proper read in real quick and then I'm going to let them kind of take it away and I'll jump in when I can.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks, deut. I mean, Dave, we spoke before the Ryder Cup. You know there's been incredible accolades for Marco Simone. He's been described as the best Ryder Cup venue of the century. People have said can we have the Ryder Cup there every year, that it comes to Europe? I mean, I just wanted to find out how you were feeling in the build up to the event, because there is so much scrutiny now of golf course architecture. It's become a very hot button topic within the golf community over the last five or 10 years and it's only getting sort of hotter. And for an event the size and magnitude of the Ryder Cup, how did it feel as being in your shoes, as the man who designed the course that was going to stage the Ryder Cup, in the lead up to the event itself?
Speaker 3:Well, firstly, thanks a lot for having me on. To be honest, I was nervous. On top everything was calm, but the legs beneath the water were like a duck. But I think that was probably two or three weeks before the event. But from the moment I got to Marco Simone and actually saw the course, I was a lot calmer. The course was in great shape. Yeah, I don't know. I suppose just because of the condition that the course was in, things felt calm and fortunately, the week was great. So, yeah, I mean the weather was amazing, the staging that Ryder Cup Europe had built, that was incredible. And then the golf course played as well as we had hoped.
Speaker 1:I gotta imagine.
Speaker 1:You know you're in a unique position, right?
Speaker 1:So you're designing a golf course for Ryder Cup, so essentially you're designing a golf course for the top professional players in the world, and these guys kind of have a knack for making even the best architects look maybe like they're not up to snuff and they go out there and shoot ridiculously low scores and do some things that you wouldn't necessarily think is possible.
Speaker 1:So my hat's off to you, because I think that the golf course really has become a star in the aftermath. And I think one of the things that was really cool about the golf course is it really wasn't part of the story but was the whole story. And it's a cool trick that Augusta National kind of pulls every year and they make reference to the golf course all the time but nobody actually directly references the golf course. And it's an amazing trick I want to call it because I don't have a better vocabulary like my partner but it's an amazing trick that you seem to have pulled off making it the star. That kind of stays hidden until the aftermath and the people have the ability to kind of dive into the details and the analytics of it all.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you for those comments. Yeah, really nice to hear. Yeah, I mean, I think, marcus, I think what people you know, you are for a rider cup course. You're trying to create a lot more than just the golf course. You're actually trying to create the atmosphere. You're trying to build in all these and I mentioned it to Dan on the other podcast. You're trying to build in a lot of hospitality units. You know there's so much more factoring in just. You know. I mean, obviously it was a blank site but you're trying to.
Speaker 3:You know, as I said to Dan, you're trying to find the best golf course but you're also trying to factor in. You know what are those best holes going to be for the spectator. And you know, if we look back on, you know, some of the, some of the comments from you know Italian Opens and some of the players who probably played in the. You know the pre-round when there's. You know there was, in effect, no crowd similar to what you had of the rider cup. But you know an example you know there are numerous uphill approach shots, but you know we position those greens with big embankments behind. So, for instance, 15 is a good example. You know. You say you, you, you, we were trying to look at the site and trying to use these features to create that, that atmosphere and that experience, you know, for both the spectators and the players. You know, and coming back to to the routing, you know I always felt one of the strengths of the golf course was the central area that we had, where we, where we managed to position four golf holes, being the first where obviously you've got all the atmosphere that that provides in the pressure, and then you had the seventh and the sixteenth and the seventeenth, and you know it enabled the spectators to actually stay very close. So you weren't, actually you didn't have to go too far away and you'd always a match would always be coming, coming through it within half an hour or an hour if you decided to stay. You know, in that particular area and you know we always felt that that central valley area was which we, which we pitched as the Coliseum to the Federation back in 2016, you know, would be the real, the real heart and the real hub of the of the golf course and you know, thankfully it proved to be and and going. You know also.
Speaker 3:You know people have also, you know there were a few comments about. You know 18 playing into the setting sun and you know, look, the clubhouse position. You know that was fixed. But you know the drama and the. You know the amazing light that actually got cast on 18 on Friday and Saturday was was really good. But you know, having the back nine over the more undulating, interesting, dramatic land with the views over Rome, we just felt, you know that was so much more important than you know we wouldn't normally have 18 playing west towards the same sun but you know we were willing to sacrifice that small little bit to get, you know, those back nine. Drivable path was short 1213. Those those really key, interesting, you know match play holes, I guess on the on the back of nine.
Speaker 2:It was an incredible course for match play. I think that's what it turned out to be. There were so many swings. When you look at Europe, whenever the US seemed to win, a whole Europe would hit back straight away. I mean, I think it worked beautifully as a match play golf course. You mentioned the 16th.
Speaker 2:It must have been really exciting for you to see that, ringed by spectators, thousands upon thousands of people, almost creating a complete encirclement of that hole, because you can't have a dress rehearsal for the Ryder Cup. You can have Italian opens, but it is on a completely different scale. I wanted to ask you when you were on the grounds at Marcos Simone for the week, you must have been looking at so many different things that you'd factored into your design and your routing. What were the little details, if you like, that made you feel really good and satisfied beyond the golf? Because there's so much that went into this, because it's unlike any other event and, as you said, the infrastructure is so huge around it and that has to bleed into how you design the holes and how you route the golf course. So I just wondered what little details really succeeded for you.
Speaker 3:Well, definitely from a spectator point of view, I remember standing behind 7 Green and you see all the fans coming down the left-hand side of 7. And they were like 15, 20 deep. You got the raised hospitality unit and it was a similar feeling. I stood behind the Green on or sat behind the Green on 16. And I was very thankful for some of these hospitality units because it actually provided a little bit of shade Because it was so hot, but I did sit there watching 17, well, most days, from behind the Green and seeing all the fans come down.
Speaker 3:I mean, and you're right, there's no dress rehearsal but we have pictured it in our minds from the moment it's been on the drawing board and I suppose there was after on Sunday, once the matches had been won, jeremy Slesser, our managing director, and I we were just stood on the top floor of the hospitality unit on 16, just watching all the people coming back towards the first for the trophy celebration.
Speaker 3:So it was quite a nice, it was a lovely moment. Just the two of us have poured our hearts and soul in Jeremy from 2014, me from 2017, just yeah, it was a lovely moment watching all the people and just standing back and taking it all in and thinking, yeah, it's gone really well and we couldn't have been obviously happier. But yeah, I mean seeing all the spectators ringing the fairways all the way around and knowing that we would factor it in and that's what. We had the opportunity this was probably the first purpose built Ryder Cup course and knowing that we had the opportunity and grateful for the fact that we didn't mess it up, I suppose no, I thought it was awesome I mean even being an American, and obviously it was a little rough start and then it didn't get much better from there.
Speaker 1:But I just thought that the golf course demanded such quality golf, that and it really raised I felt like it really raised the level of play and it really demanded that out of the players.
Speaker 1:So I was telling Dan before we came on, I actually operate an indoor golf facility and we use Trackman and we're fortunate enough to have Marco Simone on our Trackman. So I actually played the golf course before coming on this morning just to kind of get a little more of a feel for the golf course, prior to talking to you, and the first thing that kind of stuck out to me was it's like, man, it's definitely the feeling of a big park, because on the Trackman simulation you don't have the hospitality units there that kind of define the holes. So it's like you said, there's not a lot of shade, there's not a lot of trees, it's pretty open, but it feels like a big park. But I think the thing that is really interesting is there's a lot of people that are getting into golf and they're not getting in in the traditional sense, meaning that they're not going to green grass. They're actually coming into an environment like mine, to where they're starting with simulation.
Speaker 1:And the thing that's interesting about simulated golf is that the courses that do really well are the courses that obviously have the most elevation change and topography and scenic things like that. So like, for an example, like Lehenge does great on Trackman because you can really see it and you almost can kind of feel it and it's a really cool experience on Trackman. But do you think, being a golf course architect, that, knowing that there's a lot of people who are falling in love with golf that way, could you see in reality to where the architecture gets a little more animated, let's say, and a little more over the top, to where it actually presents itself better to a simulated model and has a little more defining characteristics?
Speaker 3:Interesting question. I mean, you know we are. You know Marcus Mone is an undulating site for sure and I mean that posed a lot of questions and a lot of different questions for the professionals. And I think you know, if you compare, I think on the European tour there are probably more undulating courses and maybe we'll get into that later and that's maybe one of the reasons why Europe were a little bit more successful. But you know, part of our job is, you know, we don't want to be just moving land for the sake of moving land. You know we have a responsibility to treat all sites, you know, as sympathetically as possible and trying to find, you know, the best holes that a particular site gives you. You know so it's you. Yeah, I mean they do add a lot of interest from a simulator point of view. But you know like to say to a client well, we're going to move another you know million cube of material for that particular reason. You know that could be an interesting sell to a potential owner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just think as we move into this I think I think Dan kind of alluded to it a little bit you know, especially in America, golf course architecture is more hot topic because you're seeing more golf courses designed to attract and be a stand alone kind of destination, right.
Speaker 1:So you know, if you think of a band and dunes, for example, that's obviously a magnet, right, and it's just, it's a little bit. I like your answer a lot like as someone who, like, believes in sustainability and is a little more traditional that way. You know, I definitely see the value in trying to be sympathetic in your approach with the land that's provided. However, there's also the opposite of that and I don't want to get into a comparing contrast, but I happen to be at the Ryder Cup at Whistling Straits and that land was a flat piece of land and now it is anything but. And it's like I just wonder how much temptation there is from these development groups to create that kind of attraction so that they can spin it off and sell it and repackage it in a simulation and things like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure, I think every client is different. I think that will be attractive to some clients and it won't be attractive to others. For sure, I definitely see your point. Any way that we can bring more people into the game is definitely a positive.
Speaker 2:We need to be looking at every avenue that we can, for sure, Dave, what were your main takeaways from watching the golf In terms of how the players approached the challenge of Marco Sermoni? Was there anything that surprised you? Was there anything that really thought oh wow, I really didn't expect that. I know that one of the things that we spoke about before the Ryder Cup was the short par 4 on the front line that you were maybe hoping that wouldn't be pushed up. Obviously, we can come on to some of the data on that, which I'm very keen to get your opinion on. Was there anything that stood out for you or that surprised you about the way either side tackled the test of Marco Sermoni?
Speaker 3:I think, similar to Paris. I just don't think the Americans drove the ball as well as Europe, the number of times they were pulling driver, when the obvious play, it seemed, was a three word into the wider part of the fairway you play from there the penalty for missing the rough. It was so obvious. It just felt that the Americans, and sometimes the Europeans as well, got caught in that trap. I've come back and I've only managed to get to Saturday four balls. I'm trying to catch up and watch it all again on TV. I really felt that they just kept being tempted, as was the hope and the wish from the European captain that they would pull the driver, and they kept pulling it.
Speaker 1:Dan and myself have talked about stylistically the differences between American and European golf quite a bit. Actually, I've been fortunate enough to play both. I quite prefer European golf. I think it's much more artistic and fun and I definitely think that the creativity has to be higher.
Speaker 1:I think for Americans, especially young, competitive Americans, the idea is that you have to shoot 63 every time you play golf. That's the way that it's looked at in the US. I think that that breeds this just attacking mentality to where you can't help yourself but hit the driver because you always hit the driver. We hit the driver here because we're trying to make a birdie. We just can't get out of that almost archaic way of thinking. I think that my man, double D, has some pretty good data here. I know we've referenced it a few times and I would absolutely love it if my man would talk about some of this data, because I know the word data gets thrown out there a lot. I would like to really come on to some of the statistical things that we actually have seen when breaking this down. Dan, if you wouldn't mind, maybe start teasing some of this out and maybe we can get Dave to react to some of it and see if maybe that gets a reaction and he maybe tips his cap that that was part of the design.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, thanks to each man I think you mentioned one thing there, dave, which was very significant tempting Team America to take the driver the Team Europe were considerably better driving the ball in every single session of the Ryder Cup. We're talking more than 20 strokes gained better across the Ryder Cup. I mean that's huge. I know there are a lot of matches, but that is an enormous amount. We put all the data from the Ryder Cup through Clip and we've looked at the shot quality, the average shot quality in every distance being every skill and also in the overall, and then off the tee approach, around the green putting and then dived in deeper than that. You're absolutely right in the sense that the USA, team USA, were tempted to take the driver and they paid the price because there was grass. Just tell us a little bit about the rough at Marcus Monique, because it was a different type of grass, wasn't it Probably a grass?
Speaker 1:maybe wrong. Why delay? They only said it 763 times yes, please tell us about the grass.
Speaker 3:I kept calling it Paspelum. It wasn't Paspelum, it's a total Feski mix, I mean yeah, right, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, that's that nailed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's Paspelum fairways and it's just a tall Feski mix which is incredibly strong and, as you say, a very thick blade.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then you know, I think we also mentioned elevation, which I think is really interesting. Us courses on the PGA tour, particularly, are considerably less hilly than Marcus Monique, particularly the back nine. I mean actually the back nine had let me count them one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight holes that have a greater elevation change than 80% of courses on the PGA tour. Well, so there were, and particularly for approach shots.
Speaker 2:So you know, we looked at, we were able, in the build up to the rider cup, take all the clip data for all 24 players and Europe had a clear advantage, both playing uphill and downhill. And I think that also is very interesting in terms of feeding into your pairings, because the pairings, I think in some ways the European pairings, might have been a surprise to some people, whereas I don't think there were any surprises in the American approach, which was, you know, justin Thomas is going to play with Jordan Spieth, patrick Cantley is going to play with Xander Schoffley, you know Scotty Schoffler is probably going to play with Sam Burns. You know it was sort of written before the event, whereas it feels like there was a lot more attention to analytics and much more attention to actually the strength, the skill set required on certain holes, which obviously comes into its own in four sums.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I suppose it's quite difficult. I mean, if you are Zach Johnson, you've got, you've got two of those pairings in Cantley Schoffley and Jordan Spieth and Justin Thomas. You know they've proven over numerous presidents cups and rider cups to be successful. So it would have been a pretty ballsy call for him to say, oh well, I'm actually going to split them up. But your point about you know the data and the stats on this, you know, relative to Marcus Simone, is a good one. But yeah, I think it would have been ballsy for Zach Johnson to split.
Speaker 2:It would have been more ballsy to throw.
Speaker 1:Jordan Spieth at foot, driver away and hit three wood over the water. I think that was probably the ballsy call?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think. But he, you know that wasn't picked up in the press conference after because that was all Capgate on 18, which became the main story. But if it wasn't you know, joe LeCarvo walking around with waving his cap, then I think Zach Johnson would have had a whole load of different questions to answer that Saturday evening.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be honest yeah, I'm sorry, real quick, hang on, because this is an interesting topic, but it just goes in.
Speaker 1:It's like you know, I think if you, if you look at the data and and we have so much of it it would make even the math who in the world blush.
Speaker 1:But really, when you, when you look at it, it's just there's there's case point after case point for the fact that the Europeans Were very, very well prepared.
Speaker 1:They had that, they understood what the task was. They probably went out there with the smartest NASA type people in the world to figure out the elevation changes, with the degrees of Temperature, with the relative humidity, like they had it figured out right, they did their homework and I just felt like a lot of the storylines to your point that were picked up and taken out of Marco Simone were, you know, news newspaper trash, like I just felt like they were all tabloids and it was just. It felt like they were running a lot of interference and a lot of cover for the fact that our captain just showed up with a team that was unprepared and Just like the military generally, when you start pointing the finger, you start at the top and obviously we have to start with the captain, and I just think that, no matter how you look at it, they were completely unprepared and and they got shown what a prepared team could do when they were motivated.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it's, it's. It's interesting a few of the lessons from from the Gulf National. They obviously didn't, they didn't seem, it doesn't seem that those were learned. You know, like only one player played played in Paris before that event, that was Justin Thomas. Not one player plays played in Italian open, there's been three so far. When I said to Dan on the previous part, I think you know Playing a course and playing a course in tournament conditions, you know, even though it was stroke play, you know that's gonna help, for sure You're gonna. You're gonna know, know the course better, you're gonna know where the the better misses and the wrong misses. So I, you know, and obviously, the you know no competitor golf of five weeks is, you know, is there's also a nuance to a golf course that you, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I like to think that some people you know designed for these things.
Speaker 1:But my favorite thing to try to explain to some people is when you look at number 12 at Augusta National, you know one of the most famous holes of golf in the world.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was intentional, I don't know that it was, but the thing that makes that hole so iconic is the vortex of wind that's created behind that green. It literally creates a cyclone like this on that green because you've got 11 coming in this way, you've got 15 coming in from the other way, and then you've got a massive backdrop behind that hole with the land shooting straight upward and it just creates a cyclone. And that's why Tiger and a lot of guys have figured out that if you catch it the correct way, spinning this way, if you aim left, it pulls the ball in towards the green Versus hitting the right side of that cyclone where it spits it out right, which is where the raised Creek is. Yeah, so it. It's understanding those nuances right and I don't know how. I'm sure that things like that are considered in the design process, but you have to learn those for yourself through the plane for sure.
Speaker 3:So I come back to the, the, the, the Zach Johnson and Speed thing on the team on 16. They were actually quite, quite right in that. You know, to actually get into that pin you had to come in it from a different angle. So we're Justin Thomas, the left is, drive it was. You had a pretty, really difficult up and down because of where that particular pin is. So that you know we are and and and that Any pin on the on the right, the far right hand side of 16, you're actually better off coming in with a pitching wedge from the fairway to get as it is, there's a, there's a, there's a like a knob that sort of protects all those pins on the right. So their thinking was actually pretty sound. I think he just pushed, push the tee shot, but yeah.
Speaker 3:And then going back to four ball Saturday, the only people who actually played 11 well Were the American team, where they actually hit three word or five word of the tee and to that particular pin. The play was to actually Throw a wedge from a 90 yards, pass the pin and spin it back, whereas a lot of the Europeans got caught up. But they were, they were behind on their matches there were three or four behind so they felt like they had to to chase it. But the actual play to that particular pin was was where the Americans played it. So I think you know they got better and better, as you know, like they couldn't get too much worse after the first couple of four sums Sessions. But the more they got to know the golf course, I think, the more the better they played it, I think. And and they were obviously getting more into tournament, tournament, play, tournament fit, so to speak.
Speaker 2:That's a really good point, dave, because actually that's born out in the clip data, you know. You can see that the margin between the two sides in four sums and four balls just starts to diminish as the week goes on and, like you say, they learn the course. I mean the, the, I mean it's just a par threes where it's extraordinary, I mean a whole seven on On Friday you're at one, at seven times, at five times. Sorry, when it five times on Friday.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean games well out of eight out of eight games. They won it five times and they were 30. They were 33 percent Better on par three. Tee shots on the four sums in day one. Again, you know whether that's a mixture of Tournament readiness, tournament preparation, tournament hardness and course knowledge, but those two things. And, to your point, they obviously did learn the course and they started to play themselves into form. But by that stage they're completely by the eight, behind the eight ball.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, kind of like watching a professional band right, like I mean the comment that I was, I'm glad you said that double D but it's kind of like watching a band that doesn't really want to be there and like the first three songs Like they're kind of like warm-up songs in there. You know that you can see they're maybe drinking that red cup a little Later into the show, but like they eventually get it going and they put on a great show, but the first few it. And I felt the same way about the American team and I think that the data definitely supports the fact that, once again, had they been prepared, we would have saw probably much more what we saw on Sunday versus what we saw earlier in the week.
Speaker 3:But I think it was also a master stroke from them to switch, you know, the four sums and the four balls on the Friday Come. You know they've obviously Factored in the fact that there's no, you know, there may be some, some rustiness from the Americans and then, and then playing them on Friday morning and Saturday morning, first two of the three sessions at Europe's strongest, you know, sort of match play.
Speaker 1:Well, I was an American. We don't know that there's another format other than stroke play. Dave, like, honestly, like I pride myself on somewhat understanding things and when it's like four sums and four balls, like I have to think a little bit like, okay, which one are we play? Don't play it in the US. And honestly, I think if you looked at and this is a little different for another conversation but if you looked at, you know this massive influx of new golfers that we have coming into the industry, into the game. When you look at that, I would, I would argue that most of them probably don't even realize that there's an format other than stroke play. I mean, it's really kind of alarming at how ill-prepared we are for that format.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we looked at in the in the build-up to the rider cup at Clip's. You know we looked at the most commonly hit approach shots at Marcus Simone in the last two or think or three Italian opens and they've been played between 180 and 208, 220 yards both from the fairway and the tee and Europe had eight of the top ten performers from both sides at that distance. Again, it's sort of like, you know, tempting, tempting the, the Americans to pull the driver, whereas actually, you know, even by laying back and having a longer second shot which was something we discussed in the build-up, dave, you know that really played into to Europe's strengths.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the captain didn't do you know too much to the golf course, but there were Definitely some areas where, well you know, there were definitely some fairways that were narrowed up to to try and Maximize that perceived strength in Europe's game and obviously this the the data proves that they are stronger at those distances.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they really are. I mean, I think that you know you look right the way across across the data. I mean in approach Europe, 140 to 160 yards were better in four out of five sessions. 160 to 180 yards better in three out of five. 200 to 224 out of five, 220 to 244 out of five. So that's you know, that's a big edge right the way across the bulk of approach shots that were hit, yeah, at Marco Simone and it sort of all fits into my theory which was Marco Simone was Europe's 13th, 13th man, I mean obviously he had this he had the Seville locker in there in the team changing room, but you know, maybe it was after Seville was.
Speaker 2:It was Europe's 14th band then.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, I mean, look, I think a lot of you know I, yeah, a lot of credits got to go to to the captain and the vice captains for, you know, coming up with a strategy and and, as you know this, the strategy did work at in Paris and you know it's no, it wasn't too much of a surprise that the that strategy was going to be implemented at Marcus Simone, but, yeah, it definitely worked. Yeah, and then, as you say, the numbers proven and I've seen some of your, your, your chart numbers here and, yeah, some of the numbers are literally off the staggering, the difference, the difference is just yeah so if we were uh, if we were On the back side all the way we were, we had one project left.
Speaker 1:So let's say that we're 40 years from now and you are designing your rider cup. Um, finale, this is the, the big one, this is the one that you're going to be remembered for, and we're 40 years from now. So we've played quite a few rider cups between here and there. Tell me about what you could foresee this golf course looking like. I'm curious. Where does the golf course architecture Um kind of thinking be the game going in the future?
Speaker 3:Well, that, that's a very interesting question and we're the rider cup.
Speaker 3:So this is for the rider cup.
Speaker 3:I think well, well, I mean you you can't foresee what will happen so many years down the line.
Speaker 3:I think I think what we have created, um at Marcus Simone, the, you know the, the spectator and the player experience, Um, you know you, you would look to do similar things because obviously it's, it's proved to be, you know, a big hit. Um, I think you know the, you know like, because the the elevation change gave us opportunities to have, you know, raised greens and big runoffs and Angulations in the green. I think you know that's quite important because it engages the spectator so much more because they are Watching these balls and you know like, let's say, 10, for instance, for the big false front, you know, if the ball doesn't get there, you know they cheering as the ball goes down. I think that's all part of rider cup and and and an atmosphere and getting you know people involved and I think, um, you know rider club, rider cups, match, play golf, having half power holes is is important and I think that that's, you know, birdie, you know, easy, for you know, you know, you know half power holes. So, um, I think that's.
Speaker 3:You know, incredibly important for for for match play golf. So you know, right now, you know, as we know, there will be lots of change, but right now you'd look to do, you know, try and do something similar and keep the player and the fan fan engaged, and I think that's that's an important thing with rider cup.
Speaker 2:I think, I think you know he said something really interesting there. I mean about the half power holes and there were plenty at Marcus Mane, and that's what made it such a great match play course. It brought the whole notion of risk and reward right up front, uh, in the players minds and also in the minds of the Spectator on the viewer at home. That's what made it so enjoyable and so gripping. But the other thing I think is really key is that Even though the course measured what?
Speaker 2:7250 yards not not hugely long by modern standards yet it put a lot of clubs, different clubs, in the players hands, which I think is it's really interesting. So that I think it's that this almost follows on from the duchies question about you know when is golf going, you know are we going to have when we say stadium courses, you know courses with literally Huge permanent stadiums sort of built into them, but also in terms of you know, obviously, the distance debate we could talk about all day and all night. But what marco simone showed for my money was that even at 7250 yards which is a long way in in if I was playing it, but for these guys not a long way they were asked to hit a lot of different shots with a lot of different clubs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I, I mean, Well, when, when the jack johnson went out there over a year ago, he, he made that, that statement that's. You know, marcus, money's going to test every club in their bag, which you know, as an architect, you, you are looking to do, you're looking to pose all those different questions. Yes, you know the elevation poses questions. Um, you know, there was obviously uphill, downhill, side hill, shots, left to right, right to left. You know, and I think, as an architect, you are looking to to try and ask, you know, the player and especially the professional player.
Speaker 3:You know this course is right and Marcus money is always going to be known for For hosting a riding cap. So and and we, you know, we were all obviously trying to Trying to do that and, as you say, yeah, one of the one of the things I take away from this week is, you know, there were, there were players that probably Hadn't hit a five iron or put a five iron in their bag for a year and they were actually having to play these, play with these clubs again. So I think that's that's great and you know, you know All we can try and do is pose as many questions as we can, and you know that's that provides Um an excitement level for for the spectator and the and the viewer watching on tv.
Speaker 1:Well, without trying to get into too much flattery, um, I really think that you know that shows when we, when we talk about, like, the distance debate, I get really frustrated with because it's it's totally theoretical.
Speaker 1:Uh, because it totally depends on where we're playing, right, like there's a real distance problem in Denver, colorado, like, yeah, we hit it too far there, but like when we go down to Florida and the swamps and the sea level, you know, all of a sudden, 7200 yards feels like 78.
Speaker 1:So it's like I really feel like what happens in this distance debate is that, for lack of better terminology, you know, a lot of the designers go out there and they just kind of like it's a flat golf course and okay, well, we can't figure out a way to make shots play differently, so, okay, we'll just make it 8 000 yards and that's not really helping anybody. You know, I don't think that the the general public out there playing golf enjoys it. I don't think the members of that club enjoy it and I know that the tour guys don't enjoy playing an 8 000 yard golf course because it's just it's not Creative and it just feels like it's you're actually working at it instead of playing it. So, um, I applaud you because I think that there are ways to be creative and strategic With how you force players to play different shots off at ease.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, no, well, thank you. I mean, yeah, it's uh, yeah it's it. Yeah, as I said it was, it was just great to see these guys hitting Different, different clubs, you know, and. But, uh, you know, with marcusimony We've also tried to factor in the fact that it's still a member's club, you know, and, and yes, it is a difficult course, but I think people will go to marcusimony and go well, I'm playing a rider cup course, so I'm expecting it to be, you know, a level of difficulty or a higher level of difficulty. But you know, we always, we always do try hard on the simulator.
Speaker 1:I mean, not very many golf courses are hard on a trackman simulator, but I'll, I'll be damned if marcusimony isn't a difficult track on the simulator. Man like Even probably, I mean I think the white or you know, quote-unquote the member key right is what? 6800 yards, I think is what I played it from earlier. Is that about right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's sort of the middle t68, but the sort of the normal yellow members. T was sort of 63, 62, 60. Okay, got you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean, it's just it feels like a lot longer like that, that shot on one. You know, I think the and I don't know once again, I'm playing it on a simulator, right, but it's see, I know that that green in reality is a little bit higher, I think. Then the t box right it's a little bit elevated. Yeah but it plays way more elevated because the t shot is actually downhill right and then it kind of goes back up the hill.
Speaker 3:The, the landing area in the t are similar-ish, but there's a stream in front of the t's which make you feel like you're going Down and up a little bit but that's not a shot.
Speaker 1:Plays a lot longer than you would think it would normally play, you know, I mean, it's things like that that you constantly see throughout that round.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, but I mean that, that's you know. I mean I said this to Dan. I mean the elevation change we actually saw was a massive positive on this side, especially when you, you know you're trying to factor in the spectators and the fans and what you can give them.
Speaker 3:You know, and and and the difference between Paris and and you know, marcus Simone, is Paris had like embankments On both sides of only one goal fall. So, you know, spectator got, you got to see a lot of spectators around one hole, but they only got to see that particular, whereas Marcus Simone, you know you had so much, you could see numerous goal falls and I think that added to you know the, the experience a lot.
Speaker 2:Dave, can I ask you the Ryder Cup is a huge process. You've been working on this project for many years, but European Golf Design, the company you work for, has a long history with the Ryder Cup and, obviously, with the European Tour. Can I ask you what's next? Obviously, everything keeps moving forwards, and planning and the processes for the next home European Cup for Team Europe are well underway. But what's next for you, in terms of both the Ryder Cup but also other projects that you might be really excited about or really passionate about at the moment?
Speaker 3:Well, the next Ryder Cup is a day of manner in Ireland. That's already been well newly, I think there was a golf course there before and it's been redone by Fezio and Tom Marzell from Fezio Design, so there will be work on that, but that will be a relationship between them and Ryder Cup Europe. European Golf Design won't be involved in that project, but there are numerous candidates for 31 and 35 that the company is involved in, but obviously nothing to really be said on that at this stage. So yeah, I mean there are possibly a couple of those projects knocking around, but yeah, I mean I've got some really interesting projects One 27-hole project in Jakarta, which is a really interesting part of the world to go to, been there a couple of times. In terms of other new projects, there's one in Spain, there's another one in Croatia, so there's a lot on the drawing board. We're going back to Crom Susier up in the Swiss Alps and next week we're starting construction there again doing a bit more work.
Speaker 1:So there's a lot going on Elevation in the Swiss Alps. I'm curious that one is 1500 meters, that golf course.
Speaker 3:I've played that golf course.
Speaker 2:I've played Crom Montana. It's quite a spectacular venue, and you talked about playing golf in Denver. The ball does fly a certain distance further up in the Swiss Alps. I mean, there's one more question, dave, if I don't mind asking me. You're rewinding all the way to the beginning. You're now at a point probably in your career and I might be wrong here, but where all the accolades are going to come your way. You've had this incredible success with Marcus Mone, very well deserved. Your start in golf course architecture was very similar to Alistair McKenzie's, was it not, in the sense that you submitted a whole design to a competition and then that really gave you your start in the business, did it not?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's right Now. I was back in 2002. I was in South Africa finishing my building architecture thesis and my grandfather was seriously ill. He lived in Cardiff, so I came over and said my goodbyes and then on the way back, there was a design, a whole competition in Golf World Magazine which they were running in conjunction with European golf design, and I put some entries in the postbox that he throw, and it was just the lucky winner, I suppose. But then, so that was end of 2002. And then, yeah, got a job at EGD in November 2004. So I've been there 19 years. But yeah, it was definitely the foot in the door. That's very lucky.
Speaker 1:I can't imagine the amount of skills that it would require to be a golf course architect. I mean, I was kind of, really I was nervous. This is the first podcast I've really been nervous about, because Double D has to do it pretty often, but we get a swing guy on here and he feels a little out of his element. But I really feel out of my element and I've played a lot of golf courses, and even some really famous ones that are really well rated. But if you really drilled me down and said, hey, what do you like about that golf course? It generally is tied pretty closely to what I shoot.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean. It's not because of the actual golf course, it's more how my experience was there. So I would imagine like it's difficult to design a golf course that you feel has a backbone and has some ethics. You know what I mean. It doesn't just roll over but at the same time isn't one of those golf courses that you create to where everybody hates it because it's just a kick in the teeth. Nobody wants to go and play it, because there's a ton of those out there too, and I think that if you look at those golf courses economically, they tend to really struggle because it's just not an enjoyable experience.
Speaker 3:No, I mean yeah, I mean so we are very fortunate that we get to work on a lot of projects. I mean obviously tournament projects and that's obviously through our association with the European Tour. But on every project we're trying to factor in the main client to somebody that's got a high handicap and you've got to try and make them as fun for them as possible because they are your return customer and you've got to make them enjoyable for them. But you're obviously trying to provide enough challenge and strategic interest in a golf course so that they you know, that's that yeah.
Speaker 2:Which course have you played, dave? That sort of you just keep coming back to thinking, wow, that's got so much strategic interest to it, that's got so many interesting design elements and it's playable. Which one for you? And it doesn't? You know, obviously there's some legendary courses out there, but is there one for you that sort of captures so many of the elements that you value in golf course architecture that you know, if you just had to play one place again and again and again through that architects lens, which one would it be?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm going to be a bit boring here, unfortunately, but it's. I think it comes back to Michael's point of every time I've played it, I've played it particularly well, but that's the old course that's in.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just, you know you can play it a million different ways, you know, depending on the wind, depending, you know you just there's so much interest in that place and I think the first time you actually go there you're just a little underwhelmed by the place. But then the more times you walk around there, the more you see every time you go, you go.
Speaker 1:I can attest to that. I can attest to the exact thing. I was there for the 150th and if it hadn't like, I remember walking. I think I got in Monday that week and I remember going out and working with a player that morning and then I remember walking back, like into town to get dinner before I left to go to my Airbnb and I just remember thinking like man, if it wasn't for the tournament, I don't think that place is all that Like, I don't get it. Like am I missing? Like I spent my whole life trying to get here and I don't. But by the end of the week I just really, really, really sell in love with the place. And it's their point. There's something that there's that interest. The wind is different, the whole place completely different, and it's not just the full shot either. The short game is incredibly different day to day.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I mean, obviously you know it comes back to you know some of the things we try to do at Marcus and Ernie. It's like, depending on certain pin positions, you play the golf hole differently. Strategically, you plot your way differently to certain pins. And I think you know St Andrews, you do that, do that a lot. So I think that's the thing.
Speaker 2:Is that about a great course? That it reveals itself, doesn't it, With each playing. I mean, I think so many people have had the same experience at the old course. First time it's like, oh really, what's, what's all this about? But then, every time you have the good fortune to play, it just reveals more of its intricacy, more of its genius, more of the nuances, until you're completely intoxicated by it. And you only have to look at the impact it's had and the influence, how it's influenced you know, generations of great golf course architects and the the esteem it's held in by the very greatest players in in the history of the game to you know, to see why. I think that's just the perfect answer for me from a golf course architect.
Speaker 1:Hey Dave, by the way safe and boring.
Speaker 3:I wanted to let you know, dave.
Speaker 1:Dan got his job on this podcast by revealing himself, so just just be careful when you start throwing that word around.
Speaker 2:I'm not. Yeah, I'm not going to tell you what I'm wearing on the bottom half, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a great place. Well, dave, listen, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I'm I'm really thrilled for you, as you know, and I've been sort of forwarding you all the the incredible plaudits and accolades that people have been writing on social media, and I'm just thrilled for you that it turned out so well and it was such a great course. So thank you so much for your time and thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you for those kind words and thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been a great pleasure, and, from somebody who definitely doesn't belong in this conversation, I really appreciated it because I think it's been. It's been really interesting to learn and think about some of this. I mean the the scale of a Ryder Cup is obviously massive and huge. Obviously an enormous undertaking by you and your team and everybody involved. But even as the losing side, I still have to tip my hat, because it was an incredible venue and I think that it definitely displayed the best that everybody had to offer. So my hats off.
Speaker 1:I thank Dave for joining us on this episode of making the turn. As always, double D came in with a lot of facts and a lot of good notes, so I always appreciate having a good partner that bells me out, even when I'm not the expert of the topic. So, thanks to Double D, thanks to Dave once again, and if you haven't already, make sure to download this podcast, and if you haven't found it already, you also can find the full video on YouTube by searching making the turn go podcast. So that does it for us. Thanks so much for tuning in and until next time, keep riding.