Ready to shake up your golf game? Making the Turn Golf Podcast is back with an absolute gem of an episode, featuring none other than the maverick of the golf industry, George Gankas. Known for his distinct approach to golf instruction, George talks about his unique journey from an athlete to a highly sought-after golf coach, and the influence of his father and wife on his life and career.
Listen in as George uncovers the secrets behind his teaching philosophy, the importance of stats in identifying weaknesses, and his views on the evolution of golf instruction. Plus, we delve into the concept of consistency in golf swings, analyzing the styles of Bobby Jones, Matt Wolf, Sam Snead, and Ben Hogan. This discussion will get you thinking about your own swing and how you can improve it through understanding these legends.
But that's not all. George also shares his thoughts on preferable golf swings, the struggles of perfecting golf and the significance of effective coaching in developing swagger and confidence in golfers. He gives us a glimpse into his life as a father and how it shapes his approach to coaching. And if you're looking to add some innovative training aids to your practice, George has got some recommendations. So, whether you're a novice or a pro, this episode promises to give you a fresh perspective on golf. Don't miss out!
Ready to shake up your golf game? Making the Turn Golf Podcast is back with an absolute gem of an episode, featuring none other than the maverick of the golf industry, George Gankas. Known for his distinct approach to golf instruction, George talks about his unique journey from an athlete to a highly sought-after golf coach, and the influence of his father and wife on his life and career.
Listen in as George uncovers the secrets behind his teaching philosophy, the importance of stats in identifying weaknesses, and his views on the evolution of golf instruction. Plus, we delve into the concept of consistency in golf swings, analyzing the styles of Bobby Jones, Matt Wolf, Sam Snead, and Ben Hogan. This discussion will get you thinking about your own swing and how you can improve it through understanding these legends.
But that's not all. George also shares his thoughts on preferable golf swings, the struggles of perfecting golf and the significance of effective coaching in developing swagger and confidence in golfers. He gives us a glimpse into his life as a father and how it shapes his approach to coaching. And if you're looking to add some innovative training aids to your practice, George has got some recommendations. So, whether you're a novice or a pro, this episode promises to give you a fresh perspective on golf. Don't miss out!
Hello and welcome to another episode of Making the Turn Golf Podcast with Double D and the Dutch and man. Are we pumped again? Because I don't know how we do it, but we keep getting people to agree to talk to us. But this week is pretty cool because, in addition to having Double D going with us, who is in the middle of just an absolute personal landslide of cool things happening in his life, we had George Gankis himself take some time out of his very, very busy schedule to join us on the podcast today and talk all things about performance.
Speaker 1:Because if there's one thing I do know about Gigi, it's that, yes, he is very well known for really cool swing videos and really cool training aids, but he does a lot more than people see.
Speaker 1:That's just not on Instagram. So I think it's great to have him on and have him share kind of where he's coming from in his spirit, because he has a very different entry way to the game. So you know, didn't start playing golf to his a senior in high school. One year later breaks par and beats his old man and you know that was kind of the genesis of it all and comes from a really cool background to where, you know, parents were both big into bodybuilding. So, george, I've spent a little bit of time with him. He's built pretty strong, but he also is a wrestler and just had this amazing athletic background and it seems to have lent its way to golf. And then it almost seems like, maybe, coming from a background of teachers, he just kind of found his calling as a golf instructor and couldn't shake it. So, without further ado, the man to myth, the legend Gigi himself, george Gank, is how are you man?
Speaker 2:I'm great. Thank you guys for having me. I'm excited let's get into it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, so let's talk about that. Do I have it right with your dad like a gym coach, gym teacher, something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, P teacher gym coach, and yeah, he was. He was definitely, you know, a bodybuilder too, not a professional, but he was, he was. That was big. Hey, he's big, he was huge yeah.
Speaker 1:So like that's kind of cool right. So I always think it's kind of interesting when you meet coaches who are really trying to maybe do something or say something that's very authentic to them but maybe isn't perceived by everybody the same way in which it's given right. So I would say that you are kind of right now, the maverick of the industry let's call it or the renaissance man who's trying to get back to, you know, motion and ball flight, instead of worrying about what a golf wing looks like. But like it just seems like you were kind of almost born to do this right. Like you come from this really athletic background. There's some coaching involved, there's some, there's some leadership and some teaching. Like all of a sudden you find yourself kind of doing more or less the same thing, just a little more specialized.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, funny, you say that I just thought about that. That's the first time I've thought about it that I was born to do this. It's probably with my background of, you know, being an athlete and you know my mom is now a psychiatrist. I mean being a sports psychology major. I wouldn't say psychology. I should say psychology because that's what I graduated. That would be a lie if I said sports psychology major. But I've read so much for psychology stuff while I was, you know, playing golf.
Speaker 1:I mean you were playing college golf with Rick Sessinghouse. You ought to have the flow all figured out by now, my man, Come on.
Speaker 2:How crazy is that? That I went to school with him and we competed on the same team is hilarious.
Speaker 1:I want to know what happened on that golf team, because both you and Uncle Rick, as I like to refer to him, have the most amazing heads of hair. It's incredible Like that must be all hair like golf team of all time.
Speaker 2:That's so funny because I never wear, you know, anything but a hat, and everybody's like why don't you wear your hair?
Speaker 1:I'm like when you do. You do, though, bro, I give you credit because you take it out.
Speaker 3:You must be the only golfer in existence who wears a hat and has great hair underneath, because every other golfer takes their hats off. But it's just a disaster. It looks like they borrow the top of the head of somebody else.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I don't know, I'm going to tell you right now.
Speaker 1:If George tells you the barber shop he goes to it's somewhere in LA and it is the trendiest spot ever, because, George, he gets it going. Man, it's not a Midwest haircut. I'll tell you that right now.
Speaker 2:Well, my wife is my hairstylist. She's a hairstylist, that's what she does. So I got lucky to marry a lady that can you know, fashion your hair. I guess you'd call it, but I don't do it often, it's like a couple of times a year.
Speaker 1:But that's like, that's your thing, man, like I mean, you know it's. It's such a weird world we live in, dude, and you know we all say we hate Instagram and we hate having to do that stuff, but at the end of the day, we're all addicted to it too, you know. So it's. You know we, we all we have a very love hate relationship with it.
Speaker 1:And I think when you, when you look at you as a commodity you know, as George Gankes is the golf instructor product that people view you via social media, you know you're out there in Gucci slides in Montclair Parkas and, like you're at a public range, whack and bought, like I mean, it's got a weird, like I shouldn't say weird, but it's got a very non-traditional vibe to it, man, and I applaud the hell out of you, dude, because I think that's the entryway that people are looking for. If you break down this massive, you know amount of new golfers we have coming to the game, like 40, 50% of it's non-traditional coming into the game, dude. So I think you're on it, man, and I think that the way you teach golf is on it, and I think that the story, if you want to share maybe a little bit about it, about how kind of you and Matt got together, man, because like you had a very non-traditional way of kind of approaching Matt.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that. First off, you know my style and everything is probably just comfort. You know what I mean. And that Montclair jacket was from one of my really sweet, you know lessons the Townsend's Mosse, and I don't have that much style that I could pull that off.
Speaker 1:But you did anyway, which I appreciate. It was beautiful.
Speaker 2:Funny that I've never known that anybody knew what that brand was, because I didn't know what it was. I put it on and everybody's like whoa, those jackets are sick and I'm like, cool, I guess I'll wear it. But anyways, yeah, between you know Matt and I and you know his, you know swing, that's obviously not what we'd call normal. You know, the first time I saw it I thought it was cool, you know, and I like a lot of the old styles. You know I like the cross, the line, I like the foot off, I like you know the full turn. You know, those are the things. I like it when somebody rotates into a shop that shallows and it just moves by itself, and his stuff did it by itself. A lot of cool stuff was there. When I saw it and you know most probably not everyone, but most coaches probably would have took a different approach and said you know, you got to get that on plane. But you know I love Freddie couple swing. I like you know I've liked Jim Furick swings. I like a lot of swings that have character, you know, and that have a ball pattern. That they could produce over and over has always been what's important to me and I think that Matt was really good at, you know, solid contact.
Speaker 2:When I met him, all patterns weren't where he wanted, but he could miss it a certain way. He just didn't like hooking it because he had a big slinger is way under, you know, people don't realize it, but he was anywhere from 10 to 15 into out, whether it was because of body lines or just under, you know, but he was in relation to where he was trying to aim his target. He was, you know, 10 to 15 into out, you know, and you know, five to seven right with the space and he was slinging it. So he wanted to stop hooking it. You know, when his body stopped from into out, the face shut down and he'd start online and over hook hard and he hated that shot. So, basically, you know we had some options, you know work on getting that face to stay out right, or work on rotation and getting the path more left. And it was a simple call for both of us and it was interesting when we started going more left, as you know, as a coach, you know his face was out eight degrees right.
Speaker 2:So now, all of a sudden, the ball is going straight to straight right and then cutting and I'm like, well, you know what the fuck? And I'm like, all right, well, either we need to learn to close the face a little bit and you have the weakest grip on the planet. So you know, your path is just right to that open face and it works. But let's get this thing a little more shut. I said, let's strengthen your grip. He's, I'm doing it. And I'm like, all right, well, your grips like this, it looks like a little kid grip. I said, you know, then we got to learn to flex it and it's going to be hard to flex that from where your grips at let's get.
Speaker 2:And he did right away where it was like, and it still flex and hit it solid and could rotate with it no more. Maybe you're the only guy on the planet who can do that, but you're doing it. So I just, you know, I thought it was cool what he was doing and I didn't think that it was my place to change it, especially, you know, after we made some changes, he started like shooting some ridiculous numbers and you know, and honestly, he doesn't hit any different now he still stripes it all day. You know, scoring is a different art and mental mentality is a different art. You know that's. That's some things that he's. He's getting trying to get better at now. But if you watch him hit it, you go. I don't know how this guy ever shoots over bar. It's just true.
Speaker 3:George? George, can I ask you just one comment you made there about studying some of the great old swings and you know, I understand that, that you know you're an incredible student at a game and particularly when you were starting out, you just went so deep in terms of looking at old tour swings and went all the way back. And you know, looking at somebody like Bobby Jones, you know who was playing the game nearly a hundred years ago. Well, he was playing the game over a hundred years ago. What can you see in that swing that that completely traverses that century in between when he was at his prime and now? And what can people now take from that swing and and apply it as a sort of relevant learning today?
Speaker 2:We're speaking of Bobby Jones, correct?
Speaker 3:We are speaking of Bobby Jones, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that one, if you look at his club, would get cross aligned. His heel would come off the ground, which is super normal now. I mean, people are starting to get back towards that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the phone is where he probably naturally went. So, to not come off topic but to move back into that, I see people that go, I want to be consistent, and it's a topic that I have with a lot of people. I go what does that even mean? You know what I mean. I want to be consistent and I said, well, go ahead and just swing one, and they'll swing it and it'll slice, and it's not consistent. I said, hit another one, but don't think same slice. I said you're pretty fucking consistent. You just don't like your consistency. So what you know, what I mean it's it's that can't be consistent. They see a ball fly right and then they adjust with grip or feet or something, but if they just shut their brain off and hit their same shitty shot, they could play golf, you know, and they'd have a predictable patterns. When you try and change something that's making us not consistent, is that the mentality or your mindset that's creating that, or are you just already consistent? You don't like it.
Speaker 2:Now, the point being is, when you look at Bobby Jones, I'm sure a lot of this stuff happened. Naturally they didn't have videos. They had video, but they didn't really probably studied as much as we do now, not even close. So I think a lot of those things were natural for him to where he was fluid. Probably didn't know much what his golf swing looked like, had some grip, posture, stuff that he did over time. But when I look at it, what makes it still relative today is the length of it and the amount of turn is huge and that's what we still are, you know, acquiring to do.
Speaker 2:I've got guys that I get, honestly, you know you could even ask John Payton, who's pretty much Steve Payton's brother. You know he's 64, 65 almost. I probably got him more than 30 yards and it was. His shoulders were only 45 and he thought he couldn't turn. So I started to extend his legs, started to retract his trail shoulders, got his hands over his head and that's what I feel like Bobby Jones did. Naturally he had a big fluid swing and with a bigger turn like that and you start to use your body properly in the downswing, the shaft gets you know on your form and in a position that you can deliver over and over with a ball. That's controllable and I think that that's what he did really well. He rotated through the ball. There was a lot of great things he did. That we still do and I think that that's what people forget is when you see Matt Wolf there when he comes down he looks like everybody else at P six, when the shafts parallel the ground in the downswing and even P five, it's nothing that's abnormal.
Speaker 1:To jump into, George, on what you're saying there. I mean you unpack some really good stuff there and consistency, I think, is kind of something that is very misleading, right? Because, to go back to something you said earlier, you know there's no doubt in my mind that when you met Matt and he was 14, 15 out and hanging a face of seven to eight to make the ball land on target, that he absolutely roasted it Like there's just absolutely no doubt in my mind. But the issue is is that if he misses that face, even by just, let's say, you know, three, four degrees, that ball is gonna start more or less dead at the target and then just turn over and it's roasted and instead of chipping that miss, you got to get another ball out of the bag because it hits and goes because the spin rate is so much lower. So you're.
Speaker 1:I think the hard thing with being a coach is that you know, especially with you, that works with a lot of better athletes that can really move the golf ball is. You watch them hit a great golf shot and they're like see, take that coach. And you're like, yeah, that's great, but you do that 10 out of a hundred times. But 10 out of a hundred times. You also have this miss based out of that pattern and that's what really kills your round. So if you look at how you deliver the club, you're super consistent. But to your point, with that face to path changing all the time, all of a sudden, the consistency near the hole where the ball finishes is changing all the time. And that's what they say when they want consistency. All they're trying to say is they wanna look like a PGA tour player on Sunday more often.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And the funny thing is is that you know, for Matt, in defense of when he was 13, when I first met him, it wasn't you know one or 10 out of a hundred times, or 10 out of 20. It was like it was still pretty damn good. It was like out of 20, I'd say three shots would be hooked, you know what I mean. And so when he didn't do that in a round, it was low.
Speaker 2:And when he did do it, you know he was shooting 74, 75s, and so in his defense or anybody's defense, it could have still been done, but, like you say, on Sunday, when he's not feeling right, it could be a big deal, you know. So those are things that are obvious, that we changed over, you know, a short period of time, but it was. I think it was worth it for sure. But yeah, I think the consistency there is, there was such a big spectrum. And then you could also say, hey, listen, this guy's path is zero, it's perfect. But then his face is three degrees right, and now his ball is going 60 degrees right, and then if it's phase three left, it's going six left, and those are both missed.
Speaker 1:I don't think zeroing out the way to go either. Just for the record, like I wouldn't say that, like zero is better than 13. I'm not trying to make that statement.
Speaker 2:No, no, I know you weren't, but that's a conversation that people should have. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:George, george, can I ask you and this is quite a binary question which swing that you've seen have you loved the most? I mean, you talked about Matt having an action that immediately appealed to something inside you because it was so different but so powerful and fast, and you know all the things that we've discussed. But in your extensive study of the golf swing you had to pick one. Which would it be and why?
Speaker 2:I think Sam Snead would be a really good model for even present day, just because a lot of the stuff was. He was in motion. He brought it back pretty much right in a great spot up top. He had a long, fluid swing which is going to last a long time full turn. He rotated really hard through the ball. There's just a lot of his hip depth, his pelvis tilt and his left bend up top and his full turn created such good legwork in the down swing. I just think that there's a lot of good stuff that anyone can learn from Ben Hogan whether it's even a setup I like because he was a taller guy and he had a very balanced setup. He had a great you know everything there that I like. I thought what I like is that P2 left arm parallel to the back line and I think there's a lot of guys who go outside and then reroute later and get deeper. You look at Wolf who's way outside it, freddy couple's way outside it. There's a lot of good Adam Scott.
Speaker 1:There's a lot of guys that aren't in that model but you know, when I see guys that are in that and Sam Snead's kind of like takeaway model and up top, I see them hit it pretty well, but I think that's because the body's driving the pivot, right, george, like I don't think you're wrong there, because if you don't see that right, let's talk about, like, the club being way up right, they're getting into radio deviation and basically they're just trying to move the club head behind their body by retracting the right arm into their rib cage and there's no pivot at all, right, like that's just literally trying to throw the club head over your shoulder. By the way, real quick, real quick. I have got. By the way, just so I'm not remiss because I got it out, not that I had to look very hard, but, dude, you make us all better.
Speaker 1:Man, like, your training aids are amazing. I know if you're listening to this you can't see what I'm holding up. I'm holding up a G-box, right Part of the G-series, which I absolutely love. We got the snappy wrist guy, we've got the boxes, we've got adult junior size. I mean I think it's a really great training aid. Dude, I love what they do. But what I wanted to talk about I don't know what you're calling it officially, but the flappy bird or the flapper dude I think this thing might be maybe the best training aid to come out since the pro sender. Ooh, that's a big statement.
Speaker 2:The bird. We just didn't know what to call it. And still, our launch is probably in the next three weeks and they're like, okay, we got to call it like the G-slot, but because one, what it does is one. When you get your trail shoulder to go external, it just snaps on your back and it's really simple. And then when you do it and you can't reach it, let's just say I'm standing up, I turn and I have forearm rotation, the thing will snap for your forearm.
Speaker 2:And the cool part is is if you just turn to the top, it'd be like a pretty damn good position. But that doesn't mean you have to use it like that. But people are snapping it right at P2, some are snapping it in transition, some are at P3, but the guys who do it like I don't know it's a good matchup for a G-snap, because when you do that, not the face opens with the flappy bird and your lead or trail wrist going into flexion or extension are a really good matchup for it and it feels very pivot oriented once you get there, which is what we all looking for.
Speaker 3:George, I wanna sort of just rewind a little bit. I mean, you've had a, you know you have an extraordinary career. You've now got all these incredible training aids that are part of the sort of George Gankis brand and helping golfers to get better. What was the sort of moment of epiphany that because I'm a writing thing, he didn't really come from a golfing background he took up the game late. What was? Do you remember that moment that you fell in love with golf?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I fell in love with it when, when I think it'd be probably really early, like 1920, when I thought all sports were pretty easy, and then I realized that golf was really hard and you know I couldn't figure it out but I thought if I started the swing that I could perfect it. Then I was absolutely wrong. You know what I mean. I thought that I personally could figure out you know how to put something on repeat, day in, day out, and no matter what I did, you know the longest that I could go is probably six weeks without any adjustments to where things didn't get whacked. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like I could have a constant ball pattern and say I found this for life, and then something would go off and of course we don't know if it was a little ball position that got you back and you hit a couple blocks or hooks and then all of a sudden you start trying something different, whether it's with alignment or with your swing, and so that's probably my first infatuation is really early trying to figure out. Like, if you know I could create something that I could do over and over and be like a machine, almost like a Monormon, and I couldn't, but I tried. You know what I mean. But I still, I still try to this day, and I play a lot of good golf. I'm sure you guys do too, but I also play some shitty golf, and I think that no one's ever really figured it out.
Speaker 1:And I don't think anybody I mean, the only thing that we've all proven, george, is nobody has all the answers right, because nobody's having 100% success rate out there, like nobody. Like, I don't care how good you are.
Speaker 2:Even the tour players that are really, really good and then they lose their games. And a lot of times we lose our games because we start looking for the wrong shit instead of going back to what we were doing when we were hitting it good, Especially on tour. I mean, they have all their, they have everything on tour that just shows when they were playing their best golf. So it's like why change something from where it was the best they've ever played or hit?
Speaker 1:it Makes no sense to Look at what Victor Hovland's done. I mean I think it's genius, right, like I mean he's pretty much on the record that, hey, I kind of found my golf game and found really good golf in Oklahoma when I was going to school here and instead of like making a pile of money and moving down to Florida and changing everything, including his environment, he was like I'm going to stay here and keep getting better and I mean that's kind of more or less what he's done.
Speaker 2:He has done it and you know it's For Victor from the very start, when I first met him when he was at Oklahoma and I knew who he was before he was at Oklahoma State and obviously I know him pretty well. He's been hitting the ball good a long time and not to take away from Jeff Smith or Joseph Mayo who's with him now, but that kid has never really struggled ball striking. I mean, I watched him play a bunch of practice rounds and I remember telling him the first time that I ever saw a Mrs shot on the course was a. He had like 2.15 and it was a pin that was. I forgot where we were at Whatever. It was a part three and he blocked one a little right and I'm like you know what? That's the first shot I've ever seen you miss on the golf course. He's all not a chance. I'm not kidding. I've never seen you miss a shot, like when I say miss a shot like a real quick hook or block, like something that you'd consider was fucking pretty bad for yourself.
Speaker 2:It wasn't even, but it was the first one that was like almost a foul ball and I was like he's human.
Speaker 3:Yeah, george, how you talked about ball striking there and obviously you know a lot of the players you work with are supreme ball strikers. But can people get too hung up on ball striking? Because there are many different ways to play, there are many different ways to play the game and there's many different ways to skin a cat and there's many different ways to get the ball in the hole. I mean, I play, I've played in Britain I've got an old fashioned sort of you know inverse C finish. I'm a bit of a picker, not a flusher, and we're working on it.
Speaker 3:We're working on it with the dooch, but do you think people can get too hung up on literally munching it every time? Absolutely.
Speaker 2:I think that I have a. I mean I probably have. I've got guys that are pros that I do. That dude's good, what's he shooting? I go, dude, he's been playing like a year and a half and probably shoots 85. They're like what the fuck Like?
Speaker 2:I'm like, yeah, these guys can, can hit a ball where I didn't learn that first. I learned to play golf first. You know what I mean. I mean I tried to hit it good first, but I learned to score immediately. You know I was over on the wedge game, working on 10 feet and then putting, you know, just making contact, moving the ball forward and creating a ball pattern that I could trust and just get it in the hole. And I think that a lot of these guys now start out to where they learned to hit the ball good, but they don't know how to get the ball in the hole yet because whether they have distance control, they miss both ways. They can't putter, chip, they don't work on it. You know, whatever it might be, I think that people learn way different and I think that now let's get the swing perfect and I can score. And that's some bullshit, as we know.
Speaker 1:So let's jump off there. Let's jump off there, my man, because, like I think what you're saying there is pure gold. Because you know I'm quote, unquote the force plate guy. And you know, dude, people come to me all the time, fly into Detroit, you know, want to get on the force plates because they think I have the golden ticket. Because, like, there's this flawed way of thinking that amateurs have right, which is technique, is the only way I've got to make more twos, threes and fours, to shoot lower scores, instead of making less sevens, eights and, you know, sixes. So I mean, it's like we got to kind of think about this differently. And I think, if I had to guess George, to kind of piggyback off my man double D, you know, I'm sure that the type of people that walk up for a golf lesson with you, you probably walk up half time.
Speaker 1:You're like, holy shit, like that guy hits it pretty good. You know what I mean. Like, makes a good move out of it. It's a nice ball flight, good. Like you look at it on, you know, jc, in the yellow briefcase I see you still rocking in the flight scope. You know the whole bit and it's like it all looks good man Like what? Like what are you going to do with that guy? But then you talk to him and you're like dude, what's your status? Like right now, I don't know, I don't have any. Well, why don't you have any status, bro? Like I don't know, man, like I feel like I hit it pretty good and it's like okay, man, well, maybe we need to work on the other parts of the game instead of just hitting the ball. You know what I mean. Like let's go.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that is some stuff that I think as coaches you know for me now, I'm kind of a freak in the fact that I've always developed juniors and I've always developed players. And now I'm getting 20 handicappers or I'm getting guys that I see for one hour and they fly in for one or two hours and, like you said, they expect you to change their whole game and some of them are getting it pretty good and I'm like, why are we over here when we should be in different areas? Why are you not scoring? What are your stats saying what? What exactly? Why don't take stats? I'm like, well, there's a problem right off the bat. I mean, and some people don't need to take stats, like me. I used to tell my college coach I don't need to take stats.
Speaker 2:I know where my weaknesses are and I do know where my and I'm sure you do, we all do. We all know that if we had something fixed, we'd feel a lot more secure on the golf course. You know whether it's tight, lies into the grain, fucking short pins, tech pins, whatever it might be that you don't feel comfortable with. We could go out there and put a lot of time into it and get better at it, and I think that when people come to me, a lot of times it's pure mechanics, mechanics, mechanics, and I get a lot of guys that are just starting and people think I just work with good players probably. But I work with so many docs and that's fun for me too, as I'm sure it is for you.
Speaker 1:I love it. Sometimes tour guides are boring because you know they don't want to change, they don't want to hear you Like, they just want to like do what they already know how to do and already makes money with you know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like and fucking. You don't, you can't blame them.
Speaker 3:Shit, I don't Just your point, your point about people having you know, knowing their, their sort of weak spots. Do you think that's actually true? Because I think that most golfers have an internal set, internal narrative about their game. But what statistics or what data? If they're diligent about collecting it, more often than not it will show up something in their game that is runs completely counter to this narrative that they've built up, and the narrative is often built up around emotion and around scar tissue and around things like that. Well, actually, the truth is is often much simpler.
Speaker 2:No, you're correct on that, I would. I would not argue your point at all. I think that I think that a lot of people, when they actually do take really detailed stats, do find some surprises and where a lot of people go I'm a terrible driver on this and then you find out that they're actually gaining strokes on the field and you're like you're not that bad. So so you're correct on that. Some people, you know, some people kid themselves into saying they're great putters and that doesn't hurt you. But realistically, we look at your stats and from like eight feet, and then you're not that good. Let's work on that. You know what I mean. So yeah, I agree with you there too.
Speaker 1:You know, if you, we had Sean Foley on. He was our last guest. Love Sean, he's a good dude, but I look at him, yeah, so we were. We were talking and there's a story that just I was reminded of. You know, Justin Rose and Sean were still working together at the time and Justin was in the short game area, I guess, giving it to Sean pretty good, about how he was the worst chipper in the world and Sean went over and pulled the strokes game and like comes back over and shows Justin he's actually the best in the world at it, and you know what I mean Like just totally blew Justin's mind and really changed his outlook on it.
Speaker 1:But you know something that I read I can't remember if it was the GQ article you did or one of the other amazing pieces that you're always featured in but you know, one of the guys took a lesson and was very apprehensive about working with you because they you know, they're not a great player, self admittedly and you were like hey, man, like I'm a doctor, like I'm not going to just like walk up to you and tell you suck, you know what I mean. Like I'm not going to tell you're dying of cancer. I'm going to try to give you some possible solutions and like talk you off the edge, but like that's what you're saying right. There's people that, like Justin Rose, who need that data to feel good about what they're doing. But then there's other guys who, like you in college, like hey man, like I'm out here doing my thing and like I got enough going on to where keeping staff is only going to get further in my way and like you got to know the difference, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%, and maybe my philosophy was wrong. I can't say it was right. I was not a world beater, but I would say that you know, day in, day out, you know shit. You hit fucking. You block five drives in the fucking woods. You know damn well, you're not a great driver. You know what I mean. It's not that hard to feel. You know what I mean. So you know, I've always known where my weaknesses were, in my opinion, and now I would say I know exactly where my weaknesses are down. To have time to work on them and are they that important to me, you know, depends on how much golf I want to play. You know what I mean, Right?
Speaker 2:I mean it's different around it's. It's there's. As long as I'm not losing balls and as long as you know I'm not hitting in the hazard and I'm not three putting, I can shoot under par. You know what I mean and that's probably the biggest key to my game for playing. Everything else is is decent to where. If I keep him play I'm I am not probably going to shoot much over par.
Speaker 3:George, I wanted to ask you just to get into the jumping around a bit and I apologize for that, but Podraig Hinton is a character character I've come across quite a quite a few times in my career. When I was at the depths of my worst chipping problems, podraig said that he could cure me and then singularly didn't cure me in front of a crowd of people at Royal Liverpool, which was one of the most humiliating moments I've ever had in golf. I will never forget that. But Podraig is an incredible guy, has an incredible mind. He is an amazing, has an amazingly inquiring mind. He's always looking for an edge as a coach, you know, and somebody who not only a coach, but many people have described as a mentor. What is the challenge of working, or what's the joy of working, with somebody who is so inquiring and is so questioning and has a mind that's so alert and agile?
Speaker 2:Well one. I did, obviously, work with Padrick for a couple of years or a year and a half, whatever it was, and it was probably some of the most enjoyable times of my life. I mean, honestly, my wife loves him, I love him. You know, Ronan is caddy, I love him. I think that they're a great duo and I think that he's very you know information seeking at all times and I thought it was some of the most fun times that I had teaching. So when I get a coach that I don't even know is a coach, I go.
Speaker 2:You ask a lot of good questions what do you do? And like well, I teach out of you know, wherever they're teaching, and I'm like oh, that's probably what I enjoy most is when people are questioning what I'm teaching. Not in a way that they're questioning, you know, philosophies. It's questioning what they've learned in the past and why would I want to teach this over that? That stuff, that's fun for me. I don't even mind debates, I like that too. That's fun. And when somebody comes and they really want to learn certain things and they've had these preconceived notions of what should happen, and then they hear this and they go, why? I love talking about stuff like that. It's not that, hey, you have to do this or you have to do this. That's really not me. It's just when someone starts talking shit. I enjoy that too. I enjoy a lot of different aspects of golf conversation. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I think the thing there, though, that really comes through with you. I've spent time with you. We had a great talk at Augusta. I got to spend some time. We were out watching Matt and James Pye at Augusta National, and we spent a good amount of that afternoon just talking.
Speaker 1:But this idea that when you really are trying to be outright and forthright with your information, you know it's like I don't disagree with you. I don't mind when people ask me why, as a matter of fact, I prefer it. I hate golf lessons where I just feel like I just hammer the person and it's just like I'm the only one talking because there's no learning going on. I mean, we both know that they're just kind of all or whatever happens to them. You really got to figure out a way to communicate with that person.
Speaker 1:But I think the thing that's really challenging is getting people in our industry to maybe not look so far backwards and I'm not saying that we can't learn a lot from these great swings, because of course we can, and I think that there's some amazing things that we can learn. But at the same time, the task that they were being challenged with was a completely different task than that of what we have today, with a completely different golf ball. Therefore, the modeling has to change because the golf ball does something completely different. And it's like I think guys like you are trying to move the needle forward and advance the topic, just as I'm trying to do with what we do, but at the same time, it's like there's also a lot of people, man, they don't want to hear it and it's kind of a weird industry and we're at a weird point in our industry because I really think there's a changing of the guard of foot and I don't know that the guys that are being changed out really want to be changed out.
Speaker 2:No, I think that you're absolutely correct in that, and I don't think. I think you're way younger than me, but like I think that the next generation of kids are so smart, I do, I believe that they're very. How old are you?
Speaker 1:I'm 38.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, you'd be right around the area that I'd say is going to take over between, probably like 27 and 38. Those are the guys that are going to take over the teaching area, the teaching of, you know, our next generation, and I think that it's important because I think some of these, these what I'd call kids, have studied under so many people. They're all like little comos, you know, trying to sponge from everybody, and I think that's that's the thing that is very important for me. I didn't sponge from really anybody. I kind of cheated by sponging off players, like I just watch players, watch players, watch what they did, wanted to learn myself, went out and played, experimented with myself, and not saying myself, I probably could have accelerated my, my, my information and how I did things a lot quicker if I would have opened up to other people and ask for like stuff, and I kind of wish I did, but I never did.
Speaker 2:I'd just be like, all right, well, I'll try this or I'll try this or try this, and sometimes some of the things work, but they they have to be matched up with something else. You know what I mean. If I'm going to be a guy who's really throwy here, I better have my pivot moving forward for like a wedge. But if you don't match that up, this shit doesn't work. And now all of a sudden you go this doesn't work. Well, of course it doesn't, because you ain't doing it right. You ain't matched it with something else. So someone said do something in my golf swing. I better match it up If I feel like I should move pressure off 70, 30 to P.
Speaker 2:Third three I better learn to recenter. How do I recenter? I could recenter over here. I could recenter over here. I can recenter the proper way. I mean there's different ways to get your scale to read 50, 50. You know what I mean. And there's different ways to get pressure 90% on the left or 90% on the right. They all have different looks. So that's another thing that with with force plates that I've looked over time, I'm like bro, I could get 90% of my pressure on my right heel like this, without any tilts, or I could get it on with the prop. You know what I mean. So. So looking at data is not always is perfect. So those are the things I think the next generation is going to be so far ahead.
Speaker 1:Well, you're absolutely right, though you said something that I thought was really key, because I'm one of the guys that has definitely went and sponge, and, you know, the thing that's been really good for me is that I got, kind of fortunate, to where I didn't really know anything at all.
Speaker 1:You know, I was just a young coach that had played a lot of golf and figured some stuff out for myself and was like just, you know, trying to figure it out. So what was nice, though, is like I kind of had to learn the body through force plate first, like that was kind of how I learned it, and then the cool thing was is then going back and learning about how the club moves and becoming a track man master. I think that's what's really been. Cool is like understanding how the body and the club and then what we want the ball to do. From a ballistics term, I mean being able to kind of put the pieces together, man. I mean it just makes it so much easier to teach golf instead of being stuck with hey, the only thing I can do is wrist angles, because that's all I've ever learned.
Speaker 2:I agree. Or you know, trying to move your path left by just using your arms over the top or sliding, because that's the only way to get it into outer. Keeping your chest close forever because you think a draw can't be hit with a chest that's open is absolutely still. Incredible to me is the amount of bullshit I hear over years. So I learned it. Completely opposite, I learned what the body looks like to create the pressure. And so when I would talk to like Scotty, scotty, lenny, go, how do you know pressure is going to be there, I could just see it. Not trying to be cool, he's all your fucking right and I'm like I'm not, I'm not trying to be right, I just have seen golf swings for so long and when we first got on the force plates, it's not that I didn't need one, it's almost like butch saying I know, you know, I see what a ball does, I can hear sound. He's done it for so long. He has the right to say that. You know what I mean. I can, I can tell you where a path and faces, and you could go well. You don't know what his angle of attack is. I'll tell you what his fucking angle of attack is pretty close to you know what I mean which is going to move the ball right or left, depending on how much up or down you hit. And I think that I I think that that's the way I learned.
Speaker 2:First, I learned by seeing motion and getting people to develop certain things to create the motion I wanted. And then I was like, all right, this, this tilt and this extension is creating more pressure on the hill. Oh, this shoulder going lower, is that come from my shoulder? Is that coming from hip flexion? Or is it just when I separated, my shoulder happened to be in the way of that hip flexion? You know what I mean. So there's, is that what's putting more pressure on there? Or is it just my shoulder going low as I open up? So things like that are cool.
Speaker 2:Or I probably learned backwards of what you did, because I had a case study up for a case study of players and I had a chance to fail. I'm like, all right, this guy's, if he comes back, I'll get him better next time. You know what I mean. I've been doing it for so long that that's probably where I learned different than the kids today. They've already got a lot of good info. Where I had. I had to probably do it a lot more on the mat. I had to fail a lot more.
Speaker 3:George talking of kids today I can sort of hear some background noise there. You became, you became a father relatively recently, so related congratulations for that. What have you learned about yourself since becoming a father?
Speaker 2:Shit that. I'm not that important. That's what I found. I'm only important to make sure that he's doing well, my family's doing well, and I think that that drives me in certain ways. But it's, you know it's, it's a different joy, you know it's it's really. You have to come up with some different energy than you thought too. You know, being as old as I am at 52, I feel like I didn't think it was going to be as fun as it is, and it first. The first couple of months weren't fun. If you, if you're going to be a new father, they're not that fun in my opinion. But now, when he's smiling at me, you know, the last few months, when I come in and wants to hang like, wants to be held by me, it's, it's it melts your heart.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful man, I mean. Look at that. I mean, at the end of the day, you know, I think that that kind of really rings true, right Like you come from this long line of people who were educators and had a background in physical fitness and then you know, I think the thing that kind of all coaches share is the fact that we all more or less want to help others, right Like? I think that, you know, probably having a kid is really a great thing to happen for a coach, because it really teaches you kind of how to fail again and kind of how how to have that humility again, right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I find that some of the things that I worried about you know before not important and I think some of the things that affected me aren't that important. I think it just puts you a lot of things in perspective. Is is where I think it put me personally, which I think I needed you know, and I think that people are. Why aren't you out on tour like you used to be? Are you retired? Are you done? I'm like I kind of just enjoy chilling, like still working my ass off.
Speaker 1:Can I ask you a question about that? Huh, Can I ask you a question about that? Is somebody who's also been out there a little more in the past than he has been recently. Is it everything you thought it would be like as a coach? Like you know what I mean, Like for us, you know good.
Speaker 2:Okay, so for one. I think that everyone needs it if they're a coach at first, because they need validation.
Speaker 2:They need validation. They need people to know that you can coach tour players and I personally, now that I've done it, is it everything I thought it would be? Absolutely not, absolutely not. And don't get me wrong. If you know, I got DJ knocking at my door, I got Bryson and I got you know I would go out there because they'd be willing to pay the price that I wanted to go out if they were looking for something like that.
Speaker 2:But when I was there, I was losing money and so losing money and traveling away from my family did not make sense and I did it for I don't know, since 2014, 15, whatever it was to like 2022, probably 2022. And then I stopped doing it as much and people were like why, why are you not? I'm like because I make so much more money here one, and it's a lot easier, it's a lot less stressful than you know. The having players play good or bad in the ups and downs of that and me developing juniors I just did it in another podcast is really, I think, what my true love is. I enjoy because I can make a big difference. I think we all can as coaches where, with the tour player, you can make a big difference, but not, as you know, impactually, as that's a word. As you know, you can't with the junior in fact, I agree.
Speaker 1:I agree, I love talking to the kids about you know what it takes to play great. You know like they want to play great in states or whatever the case may be right and it's like, okay, well, let's talk about the six months leading up to that. And they're like what? And it's like, yeah, like we got to practice being great, because you don't just show up and become great. You show up and you're already great and you just do great things. That's what you do.
Speaker 3:You coached the I'm right in thinking, george you coached the six year old world champion. I mean, I would love to meet that kid, a six year old world champion. How, how good was he, is he? Um, I would just love to see that kid play golf.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what. The first time that I met him, he was four and a half and Harrell Varner, his dad is, is, I believe, his manager and agent, one of the nicest guys on the planet he brought. He brought him over to see me because they live in Santa Barbara and I'm an hour away from Santa Barbara and Westlake and they brought him out the first time in a month and this kid's pretty good for like four years old. I was tripping and I was like and he was such a sweet kid and he just hit it off the tee and just like, pop it, pop it, a little lefty.
Speaker 2:And you know he'll bring him out to me once every couple of months and, and so I would say I'm influential on his golf swing for sure, but not influential as much as his dad has to be and the people around him practicing, because he's doing a lot of good practice, a lot of like. I'll tell him what to do, like putting drills and putting games, and he'll go get him done. You know, I mean they they get it done. That's. That's the coolest thing about teaching a junior is the ones that are good. Have good parents that can really like I don't want to say, force them to do it, because he wants to do it.
Speaker 1:He wants to play golf, but his dad will make it available, they make it doable for the kids. I think, right Like there's a difference, right Like I have a waiting area here at my, at my indoor facility, and you know, like I have parents that come and they just sit in the waiting area and wait for the lesson to be done, and then I have parents who, like you know, 10, 15 minutes towards the end of the lesson, like they come over. They kind of want to know, like what the plan is, what you work on, because, like I don't like hovering right, Like I don't, I don't put up with that, but at the same time, like they want to come over get some notes. What's the drill is? We film a couple of things and like send them on their way. But the secret to successful junior golfers is always the same thing they are committed to practice and they are committed to getting better every day of the week, not just the day of the tournament.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what it's I mean. Then I've got Masa and the towns of kids who rip people like they're, they're so good and they started it. You know, they started with me at seven, one of them started with four, one of them started three and they're just pretty dominant. But it has a lot to do with the parents.
Speaker 2:It really does work, in my opinion, of the kids that I've seen, because either I have a good story about a kid that the mom was just you know, some parents are infatuated with certain looks like I want to swing right here, and you're like, listen, there's swings over here, I want to swing right there, I'm fine, I'll get it there, just relax. And sometimes you have to like, as you know, be like listen, stop it. This, this is not where you really want your kid to be Okay, but the fact is is she had a pretty good point, which to me is not that important and it probably should be looking at Rory with the best balance on the way through on the planet, and I always hit a drive and smoke it and I pick up and I'm almost falling over and I go get my tea and I just it's not when I'm, when I'm in your, because you're wearing Crocs, george.
Speaker 1:That's what.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Probably because I'm wearing Crocs but irons I'm not falling over on but, driver, I'm probably swinging out of my ass 99.9% of the time. And the fact is is the mom comes up and goes. I'm fucking hate their finish. And those are exact words. Not just I hate their finish, I fucking hate their finish. I'm like, all right, well, let's get them over the mirror and I'll get it right through the eyeballs and I'll just finish it right here. So I'm doing it up on the toe and she goes, I go, she goes. How many should you do a day? And I'm like you think they're going to do it a day, so I'm going to make them. I'm like, how many a day? I said give them 20. She's off. It was your kid. How many would you do? I said 100. And she goes. I swear to God, the next week they come every Friday. These kids are all boom sticking their finish.
Speaker 1:I'm like 100 today, baby probably 200 a day, honestly.
Speaker 2:But I swear to God, that's what she told me. Oh my God, wow, that's a good lesson for a lot of the other actual parents out there. They want to bust them up. That's what they do.
Speaker 1:My favorite thing I ever heard about Tiger Woods. My favorite story is and I got this from the Arizona State men's golf team but they went out to Stanford's tournament one of the years. Tiger was there and they said they pulled up in the van and they said it was just like monsoon, raining in Stanford. They were just terrible right and followed out though, and they said they pull in and like the players are all upset because they don't want to get out of the van because it's pouring. They said there's one guy out there just riping balls in the middle of this monsoon, no rain gear, no hat, no nothing. Tiger Woods out there, just like it wasn't raining at all, just in his own little world riping balls.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a difference. There's definitely a difference between you know these guys that are good and not. It's usually the mentality that starts it all.
Speaker 1:It really does and you got to build it right. It's not. I mean, you have a degree in this right, so it's not one of those things to where I think a lot of people just think that there's this zone you can click into, but if you're not putting in the work, developing those skills, like you're not going to be able to call on them when you need them.
Speaker 2:Absolutely not, and I think that I mean honestly when we talk about like a Tiger or somebody else like that. I think that every kid that you can tell when they're going to be good, just like right away, just from their swagger, every little kid is fucking cocky. Every kid that's cocky in your neighborhood there's one or two of them every year and they always end up the best. You see them at seven to nine to eleven. That's when you start seeing their. They walk different, they think they're badass around their friends and they're usually the ones that come up. You probably have it in your area too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what we breed. My Wi-Fi password for the facility is to be no feeder fish.
Speaker 2:What is it?
Speaker 1:No feeder fish, only shark.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, I mean, a couple of things you've said just remind me so much of Kevin Kirk. He's a great friend of mine and Kevin really talked a lot about being Kaizen and always trying to find a better way and always trying to learn. But he also talks a great deal about warrior culture and that's kind of what you're talking about, right, that swagger and developing that in young people, man, because it's hard for a guy that's 52,. Right, Just wait till another 10 years goes by, man, and now you're 62. And now you've got a 10-year-old kid that's coming home telling you about things on some device you've never heard of, on some platform you don't know exist, and they're calling them things you didn't even know were bad things.
Speaker 1:Yet you know what I mean. It's going to be wild man. How are you going to relate to that person and how are you going to teach them to be confident? Because the world is a scary place, man, as you know, and I'm sure you're more aware of now as a new father. But you got to teach them how to be a warrior man and you got to teach them how to have that swagger. And that's what I love about your videos on social medias it's always big energy man and I applaud you because as a coach that works and like you man, I love the public. That's where that's my calling card man. I'm a public kid at heart, so having the energy for that guy, that isn't so good. That's tough man and I applaud you because it's not easy to do.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that. I learned that pretty, pretty young. As far as that, you know, even if somebody wasn't very good and I didn't do this because of this, but I just always felt like it was a challenge to help everyone. You know what I mean. Just because you suck. Imagine if you get this guy good and he really does suck. You know you're going to get a bunch of his friends who suck too and you're like, fuck, that's a lot of energy I'm going to be dealing with now. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:But it happens. You know you fix, and when we say fix you they're not as bad. All of a sudden they're like, wow, this guy's got good over the year. Maybe his coach is helping him out for real. You know what I mean. But a lot of it, yes, we know, comes into the player how much they want it to and if they want it, I feel like you know a good coach can probably pretty much change any any any bad stuff that anyone's had. I do. I believe that we have the power to to make impactful changes on every player that doesn't believe they can be fixed If they also put in the energy.
Speaker 1:My favorite lesson man.
Speaker 1:I love the airport lesson with the guy that just you know like I travel a lot with my force plates, like that's part of my stick, you know, lugging those things around, all 250 pounds of them, like like the good, good board work I'm doing.
Speaker 1:But like somebody sees me because the track man doesn't fit in the bag, so like I always got to carry the track man separate, which is just click baited in the airport there's always some like poor, like golfer guy that finds me like right, as I've taken a first bite of something to eat, and he's like telling me how he's just completely hopeless and all that. And you know what, man, I swear to God, I do, I stand up and I help that guy right there in the airport. And, dude, I can't tell you how many text messages I've got or like emails I've gotten from people because my car just had my cell phone anymore. But like you know, you get an email and they're like, dude, that helps so much and you're like, dude, that's what it's about. We're just trying to help people play better golf at the end of the day.
Speaker 2:That makes you feel good. That's very, very. That is cool, almost. I mean, there's been so many airport lessons or elevator lessons or some shit that's gone down no matter where or people just go. I'm getting Gucci. They're just the stupidest shit ever, but it's kind of funny that I get. I get all kinds of weird stuff too and it's fun. It's probably what it's about for us.
Speaker 1:I imagine that you feel very similar to Howard Stern, walking down the street and just getting the most random, absurd thing to yell to you ever.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what, for a while there probably in 2014 to 2019, it was pretty nutty. Things have chilled out, thank God, from there. But you know, I still go on tour and it's kind of funny. It is, it's different they. You realize how many golf people there are compared to you know when I first I started teaching this kid what's his name? Dod King. You know Carter. You know DoD King.
Speaker 1:I've heard of him. Yeah, yeah, he's hilarious.
Speaker 2:Now, no matter what happens, there'll be kids on the mat. No way. And he's on the mat like those were funny days when that shit would happen to me. And I don't I don't miss it at all. It's kind of kind of nice to be under the radar, like I've always been. It's much better. And he's that Carter kid, the DoD King. He's a good dude and he's funny. He can play golf too. I don't know if you've ever seen him.
Speaker 3:He's hilarious, he can, he can rip it off with that kind of talk shit, but he can actually, he can play.
Speaker 2:He's not bad.
Speaker 1:Well, you're definitely. You're definitely one of the more recognizable guys out there. That people spot because I mean it's like at Augusta, it at Augusta, it's hilarious, right, Because nobody has their cell phones and nobody knows anybody anymore because they can't just look everybody up on social media. So it's like the only two people you recognize on the range is like you and Sean fully and maybe not Sean as much now with his new deal, but like you never not see Shawnee, because Shawnee's always there with his hair fucking slick back in perfect every time, absolutely, man.
Speaker 1:So I just want to thank you, man. I really appreciate you coming on. We could go for another couple of hours for sure. I know I know double D enjoyed it, yeah it's pretty so.
Speaker 3:thanks so much, George. Really really enjoyed speaking to you. Love your work. Next time, next time in your neck of the woods, I'm going to come and get on the mat with you.
Speaker 2:Well, congrats on what you're doing with the stats and the scorekeeping. I hope it all goes good. Give me when I get up the phone. I'm going to look it up, what is it? One more time.
Speaker 3:It's called Clip CLIPPD. Look it up, George. Oh, CLIPPD as in yeah, yeah, that's the one.
Speaker 2:Cool and they're taking over NCA scoring where golf that also does scoring, but they're not in competition.
Speaker 1:They're not scoring, they're doing actual data captures, so they're doing the statistical analysis, and all that for all the players.
Speaker 2:So no scoring.
Speaker 3:Then we'll be doing this. No, we will be doing the scoring, but we also work with over 100 college programs, george, from like Wake Forest Women to Georgia Techmen, so we provide data analysis and data insights for them. So, yeah, let me, let's definitely connect. I'd love to show you.
Speaker 1:Next time we're together, I'll walk you through it. You'll love it.
Speaker 2:OK, cool, cool, cool. All right guys? Well, thank you guys for having me out of great time.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks so much. I really appreciate it, man, for for coming on as always. I want to make sure I give you a plug, because I hope tomorrow you send me one, because I definitely want to get the flappy bird. But if you're interested at all in any of these amazing training aids, please go visit Gankist Sports. That's the place to be to get all these great training aids. And if you haven't which I don't know how, because he has over 300,000 followers please make sure to give him a follow at George Gankist Golf, on Instagram and across all social media platforms. And, as he said, if you're in California and the Westlake area, make sure to stop by, because he is still doing the Lord's work and helping public Joe everywhere. So, once again, thanks for listening, make sure to download this podcast and until next time, keep riding.