Fan activism and gender politics in Brazil ft. Luisa Turbino Torres

Brazilian football is famous for its noisy and passionate supporters. But Brazilian football fans are not only passionate, they also have a long tradition of political activism. In this episode co-hosts Guy and Francesco speak to Luisa Turbino Torres, assistant professor at Florida Atlantic University, whose research looks at fan activism, gender and society in Brazil. Luisa talks about fans' activism and particularly the role of female and LGBTQ+ supporters in Brazil, with particular reference to women's groups around Bahia, Gremio, Clube Atletico Mineiro and Santa Cruz and explains how different groups have challenged the traditional view of stadiums as male dominated spaces. She highlights the role of social media in helping organise female fans' activism and their participation in the protests against the previous Bolsonaro government.

Transcript

Fan activism and gender politics in Brazil ft. Luisa Turbino Torres

Francesco Belcastro 00:09

Hello, and welcome to a new episode of FootPol, the podcast where football meets politics. I'm your co -host, Dr. Francesco Belcastro, and here is my other co -host, Dr. Guy Burton. Hello Guy, how are you? 

Guy Burton 00:19

Hi, I'm doing well, thanks. Everything okay today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:23

I'm fine. So before we start, I want to share something with listeners. You have started a new podcast, right? Can you tell us a bit about that? 

Guy Burton 00:31

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to promote my work. But very briefly, because this is not what we're about, but I'm doing a short 10 minutes on episode, which is appropriately enough called Ten Minutes On... 

Guy Burton 00:42

And it's a weekly thing where I look at a particular event that's happening and try and provide a little bit of context, explain what's going on, really to just try and help people get a sense of what's happening and why it matters in the world. 

Guy Burton 00:56

And so that's just Ten Minutes On... every Wednesday morning. But of course, the most important thing is, if you are gonna listen to it, don't forget to keep listening to this one as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:05

Yeah, where can people find it, Guy? Can you tell us? 

Guy Burton 01:07

Um, the usual kind of, uh, you know, sort of all the various places where, you know, you get your podcasts, you know, Apple, um, Spotify, uh, tune in. Um, yeah, if you, if you, if you just type in Ten Minutes On dot, dot, dot, and then what I also do is just add whatever to the topic is for that week. 

Guy Burton 01:25

So Iran and Israel or, uh, a war in Sudan. Don't ask me what I'm doing next week! I haven't decided that one yet, but, but thank you for the opportunity to promote! I appreciate it. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:36

It's where you're welcome. So it's next Wednesday. Listeners should check out what the topic is. Okay. Well, since we are on about topics, what is the topic of today's podcast? 

Guy Burton 01:48

Well, I'm looking forward to this one, you know, so we're going to be, you know, we're doing a deep dive into an aspect of Brazilian football and Brazilian football culture, aren't we? 

Francesco Belcastro 01:57

And these are always your favorite ones. Brazil episodes are always the ones that you're looking forward to. 

Guy Burton 02:03

No, well, yeah, I like it. But anyway, yeah, but I have to thank you. I have to thank you for having sort of brought this, you know, brought this really interesting topic and guest, right? You did the hard- you know, the heavy lifting here!

Francesco Belcastro 02:16

For once... for once it was me! 

Guy Burton 02:20

Let's get on to it. Who are we speaking to and why is she such an expert on this? 

Francesco Belcastro 02:26

So our excellent guest for today's episode is Luisa Turbino Torres, I hope the pronunciation was okay. Now the topic, I think I can sort of summarize it as football, fun, activism, and gender in the context of Brazil. 

Francesco Belcastro 02:47

Is that a good way of summarizing that, Luisa? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 02:52

Yes, that's a great way of summarizing. The keywords are perfect. Wonderful. 

Guy Burton 02:55

Thank you for also joining us as well. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 02:59

Of course, my pleasure. I'm happy to be here. 

Francesco Belcastro 03:02

So I'm going to introduce Luisa to listeners who might not know her. Some of our listeners might be familiar with her work, but for those who aren't, Luisa is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Political Science at Florida Atlantic University. 

Francesco Belcastro 03:16

Actually specializes in transnational feminist politics, activism and social movements, culture and politics, Latin American domestic and international politics. And luckily for us, she also is an expert on football matters and football and society in particular. 

Francesco Belcastro 03:35

Her most recent works looks at political participation and resistance of women and LGBTQ plus communities around soccer in Brazil, and these to address gender, sexuality and other intersections. And these research is based on two years of digital ethnography interviews and archival work. 

Francesco Belcastro 03:52

Among her publications about football, are "Sports, Gender and Social Movements: A Feminist Perspective on Soccer in Brazil," and "Gender Equality in Sport: the US Women National Team Equal Play, Equal Pay Campaign Is Only The Beginning," and which she wrote for the Impaktor blog in 2019. 

Francesco Belcastro 04:10

So we got the best person we could find to talk about this particular topic. Luisa, welcome to the podcast. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 04:17

Thank you. Thank you. Again, happy to be here and be discussing this with both of you. 

Guy Burton 04:21

And before we start, my understanding is that you support a football club from the state of the Minas Gerais, which I assume you're also from as well, so do you want to tell us a little bit about that? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 04:34

Yes, that's where I'm from in Brazil. I support Cruzeiro. And you know, my whole family are Cruzeiro fans and grew up with my dad being a huge fan taking me to the stadium when he could like watching games together with my dad and like Celebrating the victory victories and championships when that happened back in the day. We haven't been really doing that in the past couple years! But, yeah, it's it's really a big part of my identity like growing up. Sundays for me were always like getting together with my family and watching the games together or, you know, my friends I have really good friends that supported the same team and going to the streets to celebrate and watching games together. All of that is really big part of my life 

Guy Burton 05:20

And can I ask, I mean, now that you're based in Florida, I mean, how easy is it to follow in Cruzeiro from afar? And do you sort of keep in touch with family and friends on Sundays when the games happen? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 05:32

Yeah, so the WhatsApp group chat of my family, it's always like more active on Sundays when we're playing, right? But we are, we are starting the high season of soccer when we basically have like two games a week, right, like in the middle of the weekend in the weekend, so it's going to start to be even more active. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 05:50

It's pretty easy to follow the main championships, I would say, right? Globo, which is the main, has the transmission rights in Brazil for the big national championship, it's easy to, you know, subscribe to the service and watch the games. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 06:08

Some of them more like, you know, not very popular, well, not that they're not popular, but they're not, the main national championships is a little harder to find. But yeah, I keep following it, I still keep in touch with my family about it and friends about it. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 06:27

You know, I, the three years that we spent in the second division were a little tough, like the games are not on TV, like you couldn't really, you know, find ways of watching it, but I still follow pretty closely. 

Guy Burton 06:43

Excelllent. Well. 

Francesco Belcastro 06:44

Fascinating. So, let's move on to the topic of today's podcast. Now, when one reads your research and your work, there is this expression, this concept that you use often is the politics of being a football fan. And I find that very interesting. 

Francesco Belcastro 06:59

How is being a football fan political? What is the politics of being a football fan? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 07:06

Right. And I will start by saying that I'm used to talk about this topic with American audiences with US audiences. So I think soccer a lot, just because I got used to it. Because you know, if you say football in the US, like, no one is going to know what you're talking about. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 07:21

So I apologize in advance for saying soccer, because it feels like, you know, something wrong is going on. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:29

We have... We are open to both! Soccer or football!

Guy Burton 07:31

We'll accept it! We'll accept it! 

Luisa Turbino Torres 07:34

Thank you. Thank you! It's not natural to me, but I got used to it. So anyways, but yeah, when I started to like, you know, be interested in this connection between football and politics, I realized that a lot of the studies being done, particularly in political science were, you know, around issues of like governance, institution, like processes, and research that focused on like the relationship between soccer and politics and how soccer is politicized, but still assuming that, you know, politics is something that happens outside of soccer and vice versa, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 08:11

So, you know, issues of diplomacy and populism and conflict and all of that. And this perspective kind of like bothered me for two main reasons, right? And not because I don't think they're important, I think they are, but they tell an incomplete story of, you know, this connection between football and politics. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 08:30

And first is this tendency of looking at it in terms of like big events, right? Or events, game days, competitions. But when it comes to being a football fan, you know, that is an everyday practice, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 08:45

It is an identity, something that you carry with you. And it's not somewhere, it cannot be summarized in an event, in a day, in game days, right? It's much more than that. So the fan, the supporter was always like kind of erased from this narrative, you know, and fans are talked about as if they are all the same, you know, across countries, across regions, across cities, across clubs. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 09:11

And that's not the reality that I encounter in doing this research with soccer fans in Brazil. And the second reason why this bothered me was how gender is ignored in this analysis, right? Particularly like Latin America. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 09:26

And when this analysis of gender are present, you know, they look more like women's participation, instead of the gender dynamics that define modern soccer. So what I do in my research is that, you know, I argue that soccer is gendered, not only because women are excluded, but the way that they sport function as a social institution is, you know, based on agenda hierarchy that values perceived masculine traits and behaviors. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 10:00

So that is the, you know, the perspective of the politics of being a soccer fan, right? How being a soccer fan is also being a political actor, right? So going to the stadium is not simply going to the stadium, but engaging in political narratives, not only, you know, within soccer, but that go beyond the stadium, that go beyond soccer spaces, and are connected to like larger narratives of Brazilian politics in this case. 

Guy Burton 10:30

You've kind of made me think, and just as an opportunity to just remind listeners of previous work that we've put out, you know, a few weeks ago, Francesco, you and I were talking to Fulham Lillies, you know, women's support group for that club in West London. 

Guy Burton 10:46

And the things that they encounter, the reason they set themselves up was to, you know, provide security support for women to be able to get to the ground. And if listeners are interested, they should go back to our back catalogue and see if they can find it, because a lot of what you're talking about here is making me think about that already. 

Guy Burton 11:05

Sorry. I just... Yeah. So with that in mind, then, I mean, you've talked primarily, you've brought the gender dimension in here, but, you know, maybe there are other overlooked communities that have not been included in football and the space around football. 

Guy Burton 11:22

So we're thinking about LGBTQ+ fans as well. So could you tell us a little bit more about, you know, them and women and basically overlooked marginalized groups, you know, the extent how they become inorganised, I guess, because this is kind of a new new phenomenon, really, isn't it? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 11:45

Yeah, so if we think about football as more than a form of entertainment, right, more than leisure, but a space in which, you know, you see relationships of power being produced and reproduced, we can also understand it as a space for like protesting and resisting death [?] dynamics, right. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 12:03

So feminists' activism around football is actively, actively like critiquing and challenging the existing status quo that we see in soccer spaces and in a space that is often overlooked as inherently political, right. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 12:20

And if we look at like the history of soccer fan groups or football fan groups in Brazil, we can see that they changed over time, like strong club allegiance, he only started to grow in Brazil in the 1930s. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 12:36

You know, we particularly urban big urban spaces like Rio and Sao Paulo, you know, to cheer for the clubs and, you know, recently created state and national championships. So they were not very institutionalized, they, you know, carrying flags and singing and gathering on game days. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 12:54

And women at this point were were part of the groups, right, they were joining the groups, and they were able to participate in this process. But indeed, it was mostly young adult men that were part and leading these groups. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 13:09

And, you know, in the late 1960s, in the context of a very violent and repressive military dictatorship, we see new types of fans, fan groups emerging that had a very strong political component, right, very against the regime. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 13:25

So, you know, the governance of the club became very connected to broader political issues. And the parties that the managers were connected to all of that started to be part of the conversation. So the torcida organizada, which is the name of the way soccer fans organized in Brazil, have kind of like in their core, this intention of holding the clubs accountable for social political responsibilities that they hold. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 13:58

And one of the first movements that women led within the torcidas organizadas was the creation of women's subgroups within the groups that already existed, right? So women only groups within those groups that were already there. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 14:18

So, you know, groups are supposed to be women led and women only spaces, which to me, it already kind of implies that the torcidas are not a space for women to begin with, right? This need to create a women only section implies that there is a gender dynamic here. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 14:36

So the what I call the contemporary turn, the contemporary feminist turn in football fandom in Brazil, it's trying to promote this new way of being a soccer fan, right? It's trying to argue that the way that we've known for the past 20, 30 years is not the only way of being a soccer fan, that there is a way of being more inclusive and more diverse that is not incompatible with soccer culture. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 15:02

And you can still have fun without, you know, marginalizing, without oppressing, without being violent, and all of that. And this is a continuation of, you know, a process of, you know, changes within soccer, and also connected to the broader feminist movement in Brazil as well. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 15:25

So it is kind of recent, because when we look at the types of group I'm talking about, they start to emerge within the last 10 years. But it's also like part of a larger narrative or a larger process of changes within soccer and evolution within the feminist movement itself. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:41

Perhaps listeners might want to find out a bit more about this. Would you say there are some Brazilian clubs that are like sort of positive examples in terms of, of these aspects that are quite, they say looked at more at for your research, or they would be interesting too, but do I want to read a bit more, find out a bit more? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 16:00

Yeah, so in the past, I would argue like five years, clubs started to be more proactive in posting on social media, for example, on LGBTQ issues and women issues trying to, you know, incentivize women talker, and all of that. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 16:19

This is not very well seen by the groups themselves, right, because they see this not as a progressive action from the club, but as a almost like a co-option of the agenda in order to profit, right, like, because we need to look at football also within the context of capitalism and exploitation and all of that. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 16:39

So they don't see it necessarily as like a good thing, or it is a good thing. But right, like they see it very critically, as not because they are suddenly caring about women and caring about the eligibility population, but more as like they saw a new market, they are intending to explore for profit, right. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 17:00

But the Bahia, Bahia Club, the State of Bahia, it's very well known for, you know, historically being more progressive and active in this kind of agenda, in a way that is not disconnected from the fans, right, it is like, connected to what the fans want. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 17:22

And, and so if anyone is interested in looking at what Bahia is doing, it's really, really interesting. 

Guy Burton 17:30

Can I ask a question? Because one of the things you just mentioned about the torcidas organizadas, so really starting to get going in the late 60s and into the 70s, and there was this reaction to the dictatorship at the time, right? 

Guy Burton 17:43

So what we see by the end of the 70s is the emergence of these new social movements, many of which actually became, you know, associated or identified with the Workers Party, which is, you know, Lula's party today, of course, lots of things we can say about, you know, how the Workers Party has transitioned over the last 30, 40 years. 

Guy Burton 18:03

But what's interesting is what you're saying about these groups now that are dealing with, you know, that deal with gender, that deal with LGBT issues. This is a more recent phenomenon, yes? So we have, I guess, probably about 20 odd years or so from the 70s up until the, well, the last, you know, after 2000, where you don't really have the gender or LGBT issues being represented in football. 

Guy Burton 18:30

Can I ask why that is? I mean, given that this is also, you know, when democracy has come back to Brazil, you know, there's supposedly a pluralism of social movements and identities, and yet it doesn't take place on the football, arquibancadas, the terraces. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 18:47

Right. And I think, you know, that's really in sync with the narrative of the left inclined movements and social movement in Brazil, right? Gender has always been a secondary issue if they care at all, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 19:00

If you look at leftist movements in Brazil, like gender was always understood as like, okay, first, we're going to liberate the proletariat, and then we'll care about everything else. And you know, you have narratives of like, these kind of leftist movements being very sexist and being very racist and all of that. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 19:19

And, you know, so it has always been gender race have always been a secondary agenda in these movements. So democracy kind of like didn't brought the necessary change if we're talking about social movements that we wanted to experience, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 19:38

And the 90s in Brazil, what we see in the feminist movement, it's a very strong institutionalization of the movements. So what I mean by that is that feminists kind of started to work within the structures of the bureaucracy in NGOs in within certain sectors of the government, instead of and in many cases, instead of working in the streets, working on mobilizing, working in within, you know, more mass engagement, I would say. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 20:12

So it's not surprising to me that these movements only start to emerge. Now, especially when you think about the political narrative of Brazil, in which 2013 was a very strong turning point, right? In 2013, you see the largest wave of protests that we've ever seen in the country, you know, that completely altered the political scenario that you have a bunch of different agendas kind of clashing the streets in a way that we hadn't seen before, really. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 20:42

And many people are still trying to make sense of what happened in 2013, right, and the effects of that geopolitics to this day. So and to me, the effect that that had on the left, and, and it's very problematic to talk about the left in Brazil, right, when we talk about the left, we are talking about very different subgroups and parties and groups outside of institutional politics. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 21:09

But with that being said, the impact that they had on that that had on the left, and including the feminist sectors, was the need to dispute new spaces that maybe before was taken for granted or not being disputed. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 21:25

And to me, that includes soccer, right? So it was evident the need of dispute the soccer space and talk about the everyday politics and talk about other elements of politics beyond today's institutional political scenario. 

Guy Burton 21:42

Mm hmm. 

Francesco Belcastro 21:43

That's really interesting. And obviously, most of your research looks at Brazil and South America, but specifically Brazil. But I was wondering whether we can kind of look at a sort of broader trend. 

Francesco Belcastro 21:56

Would you say that most of the dynamics and initiatives that you looked at are sort of exclusively Brazilian, or perhaps kind of belong to the so -called global South only? Or are we talking, are we seeing a sort of social and political activism around the issues of gender, LGBTQ+ themes around the world in different countries? 

Francesco Belcastro 22:16

Are there some similarities there? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 22:18

Yes, I think local processes are linked to global processes, right? Like that's what feminist international relations scholarship have been showing throughout the years that there is a connection between what happens locally and what happens globally, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 22:33

So there is no denying that there is a connection there. And I wouldn't say that they are exclusive to Brazil. There are definitely similar activities happening in other parts of the world, including known global south places. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 22:46

Guy just mentioned one of the guests in your podcast that was talking about similar things in England. But however, what makes the process in Brazil different is when we consider the historical narrative of football in the country and more broadly in the region, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 23:04

Football helps to explain the history of Latin America and how it is intimately connected to regional identities and the historical narratives of Latin American nations, right? And, you know, the history of Latin America and soccer remains intertwined in many important ways, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 23:22

And soccer stadiums, in this sense, are spaces in which Latin American society can grapple with, you know, complexities of nationhood and citizenship and gender and politics and race and all of that. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 23:35

So that is why I think it is important to look at active and work locally as a transnational feminist colour, you know, transnational, literally meaning beyond the state. And when I say beyond the state, I mean both outwards and inwards, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 23:51

Both more globally and more locally as well. I see the importance of, you know, emphasizing the different situation of women in different geographic contexts and paying particular attention to this historical and cultural specificity. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 24:08

So, yes, they are similar things, but there is a need to ground this local work being done locally and, you know, how this functions in a broader narrative within that state and all of that. So that's why I think there is a lot of relevance in analyzing Brazil, because, you know, Brazil, well -known as the country of soccer, really important component of our national identity, how we are recognized within, you know, the world and all of that. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 24:40

So there are similar things happening, but maybe the relevance and the connection to larger political processes are different in each one of these cases, right? 

Guy Burton 24:53

Keeping on this theme, Luisa, if we're talking about this broader international dimension, one of the things that we've seen amongst traditional supported groups is this transnational networks connecting them across borders, and including across political lines, so left -wing clubs and supporters linking up from different clubs, also right -wing ones as well. 

Guy Burton 25:18

Could you say, though, with this gender dimension that we've been exploring a bit, that a similar sort of thing is happening with female football supporters, with other clubs, and across other borders as well? 

Guy Burton 25:32

Are the mechanisms similar, or is there something different that's going on here? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 25:38

Yeah, so I'm actually really glad that you will ask that because my newest research project is looking at how this, you know, emerging phenomena of feminist activism around soccer in Brazil is happening in all their places in Latin America as well, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 25:53

And in doing that, I want to look at how they engage with soccer and politics differently, but also how they collaborate or how they could collaborate, right? And specifically, when you look at Latin America, Latin America has a strong history of knowledge sharing and expansion, you know, feminist theory, praxian theory, for the Encontros Feministas Latino Americanos e da Caraiba. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 26:20

That has been happening since the 1980s, right? And I think now it's every two years, if I'm not mistaken, but these in -contras serve as a regional critical forum for feminists throughout the region to come together and, you know, debate feminist politics and the movement overall relationship with social justice in the region. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 26:46

And, you know, more recently, if you think about the attacks against feminist agenda by right -wing fundamentalist politicians and a very, you know, explicitly anti -feminist element in the region, we are seeing increasing acts of coordination and solidarity across Latin America, largely organized through social media platforms, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 27:10

So yes, we are seeing some of these connections across border. When I was doing my field work, some of these collectives made an online event, inviting different groups from different countries to discuss the issues, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 27:26

And what I find is that in talking, they find commonality, right? Even if they are in different countries, in different realities, in clubs like across divisions, it is still, like, for example, dangerous for women to go to the stadium, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 27:39

Or the women's football doesn't have the same support or is not very well known on all of that. There is also a very interesting declaration of Latin American feminist fans that happened back in 2021. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 27:54

There was a shared political statement between different feminist collectives in the region. There was a direct response to [then President] Ivan Duque in Colombia and his actions, you know, were signed by more than 10 different collectives from several countries. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 28:11

So that, to me, was really impactful. In the statement, they are, like, expressing solidarity, recognizing human rights violations, recognizing how soccer is an important space. So these conversations are happening, and it is my going this, like, next big project to try to map them and see how they are collaborating and how they understand the relevance of, like, collaborating across borders as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 28:37

This is absolutely fascinating. It really also resonates with some of the stuff that I look at in my own work. 

Guy Burton 28:43

Sorry, can I just, I mean, which particular clubs particularly stand out in that respect in terms of, or I mean, sort of the women supporters groups of clubs doing this kind of work? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 28:58

Yeah, I don't think that there is one that, you know, stands out. But I can, I can mention the ones that are like my cases, which is the one that I know the most, right. So in Brazil, we have Coletivo Elis Vive - Gremio - you know, Porto Alegre, south of Brazil. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 29:22

In Minas Gerais, we have Grupa, which is a collective link to Clube Atletico Mineiro, which is my direct rival, and he was really interested to, you know...

Francesco Belcastro 29:34

Did they accept you, Luisa? Did you have to hide your Cruzeiro...? 

Guy Burton 29:38

Just not wear the Cruzeiro shirt! 

Luisa Turbino Torres 29:41

I think most of them didn't know, but at the end of like an interview, they would ask me, I would say, right? Can you ask me, do you want to ask me anything? And a lot of them would ask me, so what is, what is your club? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 29:54

Which club you support? You are from Minas. And I had to be like, you know what, actually, but they were, they were very receptive because I think one of their, they think that they're doing too is this, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 30:05

Like reframing rivalry, right? Like, yeah, we got rivals, but that doesn't mean that we cannot have a meaningful conversation that we cannot hang out. We don't have to hate each other. We don't have to be violent. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 30:17

We don't have to show hostility, right? Which is a crucial part of this expression of masculinity within soccer, right? And in the northeast of Brazil, we have Santa Cruz, which is now a fourth division team, very traditional in the city of Recife, but hasn't been doing well. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 30:37

And they still bring, you know, the stadium is full every time that they play, and the Coletivo Coralinas, which I have a really close relationship with. It's also really impactful in the work that they are doing, how they are meeting and the issues that they're bringing to the stadium. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 30:58

In Colombia, both Independente de Medellin and the Nacional de Medellin are really interesting clubs, because there is a big rivalry and they still find ways of like, you know, having conversations and existing over there. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 31:18

So these are the clubs that come to mind when they're doing that. Colombia, obviously, this, you know, declaration that I'm talking about was really crucial in how they do, but these are the, you know, the places that are my cases and that I have more familiarity with. 

Francesco Belcastro 31:35

That's great. So listeners can also go and perhaps read a bit more about these clubs and the supporters if they if they want to. I was wondering whether I could ask you a bit about some more recent events, because I think a lot of listeners, when they think about football and politics in the in the context of Brazil, will think about the active role taken by football fans in 2020 during the protest and in 2022 again. 

Francesco Belcastro 32:00

In this case, both cases against the Bolsonaro government. Can you tell us a bit what happened there and whether female football fans played an active role as part of the movement independently? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 32:15

Yeah, so this like political role of the soccer fan or the football fan is not is not a new phenomenon, right? Soccer fans have been involved in political issues before, you know, the popular saying that football and politics do not mix kind of like contradicts the history of the creation of the torcidas organizadas in the first place, which, you know, were explicitly created to manifest political concerns. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 32:42

You know, the organizadas begin as a way to organize and discuss not only internal issues of the club, but broader political issues and, you know, particularly lasting client agendas were have been present in football spaces for a very long time, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 33:03

So including topics like anarchism, socialism, anti fascism, like all of this, like smaller groups already existed for a very long time, within football. And I think one of the things that is important to note is that this, these sources or these groups, they're not homogeneous, they're not like, all of the same and within even within the groups, you have, you know, different opinions and different perspectives in in all of that. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 33:33

So what I see is, specifically talking about this feminist activist that I'm talking about, yes, there is an intense desire to be part of this broader political issues, right? So in their social media, for example, and I keep bringing social media, because that was one of the methods that I did for my research was an ethnographic content analysis of social media. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 33:54

So I spent countless hours scrolling through their social media and what they're doing, which is a really important tool for the work that they're doing. So in their social media, they constantly post pictures going to the protest and the signs that they're carrying. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 34:10

And they always carry a flag of their- the symbol of the group, the logo of the groups. So what I think is interesting about this is that the way that they show up to this broader political issues is through their soccer identity, through the way that they participate in soccer. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 34:28

So that the way that they articulate their political position, it's kind of like intertwine with their soccer identity, right? So they show up, not only as citizens, not only as you know, the the person that agrees or disagree with that, but they show up as a soccer fan, as a football fan to that political protest, which I honestly think it's it's fascinating, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 34:52

And it's so, so powerful. But yeah, they and the other important thing about this too, is that they organize protests by themselves too. So you know, if you look at their social media, you're going to see many different events that they either help organize or organize by themselves. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 35:11

So, you know, in Instagram, they are sharing like the route that the march is taking and inviting people to come through that, you know, to the streets and occupied public space. So there is a strong engagement to this broader protests to during the campaigns against Bolsonaro, that, you know, really starts in 2018. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 35:33

And you know, happens throughout his administration, and really more strongly in 2022, when we had the next presidential election, you know, they did not shy away from showing their political position and being against Bolsonaro in social media, and, you know, participating in the protest, going to the streets and manifesting. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 35:56

So I consider, you know, Lula's when in 2022, and, you know, defeating Bolsonaro, I consider that to be a feminist victory, not only because it affects women, but because he was feminist, really, that we're behind all this activism, all this protesting and bringing people to the streets and like having difficult conversations about why Bolsonaro shouldn't be president. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 36:26

So to me, that is like one of the biggest feminist victories in Brazil in the past few years. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:33

Fascinating, it really answers very often with this... Sorry, go ahead Guy. 

Guy Burton 36:38

No, I'm curious, because one of the features of Bolsonaro's supporters over the last decade was them wearing the shirt of the national team, the yellow shirt, and it came to the point where to be wearing yellow, whether right or wrong, made you sort of associated with Bolsonaro. 

Guy Burton 36:59

Now, you were just talking about that many of these women were using their football identity in these protests. Were they wearing club shirts, or were they trying to reclaim the yellow national jersey? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 37:09

Yeah, some of them were wearing club shirts. I think at this time, the the national jersey was still a symbol of being a Bolsonaro supporter, right? You're right. Totally. Throughout the four years, it was kind of like you couldn't like, I wouldn't wear...

Guy Burton 37:26

I wouldn't wear it! 

Luisa Turbino Torres 37:28

Yeah, I was like, you know, but what is it is like, so that's the other thing. The other interesting thing that happens in Brazil and that really shows the connection between, you know, football and politics. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 37:40

So 2022 was the year that Lula was reelected and defeated Bolsonaro, but it was also World Cup year, which happened, you know, at the end of the year, instead of the middle of the year, because it was in Qatar, there was, you know, all the issues with the weather. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 37:56

Anyway, it happened at the end of the year, which means that happens after Lula had already won the election. So the World Cup, despite the disappointing results that Brazil had in that was also a big celebration, you know, of this new hope for the country, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 38:14

So there was a big movement of reclaiming the national jersey, right? So, you know, the leftists started having conversations of like, we are not going to let them, you know, take away this thing that we enjoy so much. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 38:26

And it is, you know, so important to us. And people started to wear again, the national team, jersey as a symbol of like, victory, the new hope, you know, symbolizing this new era. So it was really interesting to watch that too. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 38:42

So there is definitely a movement of like, reclaiming this identity. But Bolsonaro supporters is still very much wearing the jersey and not only the jersey, but the colors, right, of the flag, the yellow and green are the colors used by them. 

Guy Burton 38:58

Mm -hmm. Well, that's that's really helpful. A very interesting... I mean... Francesco Have you got anything else? 

Francesco Belcastro 39:03

No, I just, I just wanted to remind listeners that we had another episode. It was absolutely fascinating and complements very well what Louisa was saying. It was very much on race and politics in Brazil with Ana Paula da Silva around December, I think. 

Francesco Belcastro 39:19

So, listeners that enjoyed this episode should really go and check that out, because I think there are a lot of things in common and it's really such a fascinating case study for politics and football in Brazil. Not only a great football country but a great football and politics country as well!

Guy Burton 39:36

Well, that's been really helpful and really interesting, Louisa. That's fascinating what you've been talking about. But can you tell us a little bit about what else you're working on, given what we've just been discussing? 

Guy Burton 39:47

That's all, I guess, your previous work, but what about now? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 39:51

Yeah, all of this work is actually coming out in a book that I've been working on, really using the soccer lens to examine power relationships as they relate to gender, sexuality, and race in Brazil. The book is called The Politics of Being a Soccer Fan: An Ethnographic Analysis of Feminist Activism in Brazil. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 40:09

And I should have more information about that in the near future. So if everyone stay tuned, more information is coming. I'm also working on an added volume called Feminist Responses to Crisis and Dehumanization: Transnational Perspectives. That is really re -articulating what transnational feminism is and how studying cases from different parts of the world and how they have been responding to recent crisis, right? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 40:38

So bringing this transnational visions towards a more fair and caring and sustainable future. It's coming out in 2025 with Routledge, in the Gender in a Global Local Work- World, sorry, book series. And I'm also working on a few other articles on, you know, methodology around, you know, research institutions' definitions of vulnerable populations, you know. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 41:07

So in this article, we are working with another co -author analyzing how institutions define vulnerable population and how that usually doesn't include immigrants and, you know, refugees and why is that. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 41:21

So, you know, not only tracing the history of IRB, but also why there are certain populations that now are vulnerable, they're usually not included in this definition. And a few other journal articles on, you know, the historical narratives of feminist movements in Brazil and, you know, how soccer is political in Brazil, also coming out in the near future. 

Francesco Belcastro 41:47

That's great. Can I ask you one thing? So for listeners, I want to find out more about your work, follow you, are you on Twitter? What's the best way? University website? 

Luisa Turbino Torres 41:57

Yes, I do have a website: www.turbinotorres.com. I'm also on Twitter, so @turbinotorres. I'm also on Instagram, on @turbinotorres. I'm also on TikTok, recently joined TikTok and been trying to do some content for our undergraduate students and how to navigate college and graduate students as well, also @turbinotorrees. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 42:24

So.... 

Guy Burton 42:25

Oh, all the double- double "r".  

Luisa Turbino Torres 42:29

Yes, in Torres! 

Guy Burton 42:31

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Luisa, for taking the time to speak to us. We really appreciate it. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:37

Thank you very much, Luisa. Thank you. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 42:39

Thank you. Thank you. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:40

Maybe we should be on Instagram as well, Guy. Maybe we could, we, maybe you could get some advices from our Luisa or how to be cool on, on Instagram. And we could just... 

Guy Burton 42:50

Francesco, we're on Instagram! 

Francesco Belcastro 42:52

Sorry, on TikTok! We are on Instagram! I never use it, but we are on Instagram, right? This shows how, like, TikTok style... 

Guy Burton 42:59

Okay, this is a question for listeners: you know, do you think FootPol should be on TikTok? And if so, do you actually want to see Francesco? Anyway, leaving that aside, but we just mentioned Instagram, so I mean, I guess, you know, sort of, we need to do the usual stuff, Francesco, so, other than Instagram, where else can listeners find us? 

Francesco Belcastro 43:20

Well, they can find us everywhere. They can find us on Twitter X, they can find us on Facebook, on Instagram. Soon, you're going to be on TikTok as well, promoting your new podcast. And you're going to be, they're going to be 15 seconds about your 10 minutes on the news!

Francesco Belcastro 43:36

And then you are, we are linked in both of us. Yeah. 

Guy Burton 43:40

We've got Face-. Did you mention Facebook? 

Francesco Belcastro 43:41

Blue Sky... It's only us there by now. Yeah, yeah. And why have we... 

Guy Burton 43:47

Why do we have all of this? Because we want people to be able to reach out to us, to tell us what we're doing, whether they like what we're doing, what they don't like about what we're doing. Maybe suggest new episodes that we could do, guests that we could perhaps reach out to. 

Guy Burton 44:03

And actually, this does happen. I mean, we do occasionally get requests for particular topics. 

Francesco Belcastro 44:08

Yup, and it always works very well when people are pass it... They're always they're always very good episode so we are grateful to guests and listeners that suggest speakers yeah and what else we need to tell listeners, Guy?

Guy Burton 44:20

What we're going to be doing next week. 

Francesco Belcastro 44:22

Don't we need to tell them to share, follow, and that stuff? 

Guy Burton 44:25

That as well!

Guy Burton 44:26

Yes, so like, share, subscribe, you know, yeah... Basically get this podcast out to everyone that you know! You know, whether they like football, whether they like politics, whether they like football and politics, or whether they like just one or the other, just get it out!

Guy Burton 44:43

And um... yeah. 

Francesco Belcastro 44:44

You forgot about that, didn't you? 

Guy Burton 44:46

I did! And what are we doing? But now, what are we talking about next week, Francesco? 

Francesco Belcastro 44:51

So we are changing topic completely. We're going to be talking about football, gambling and the politics of gambling and issues around gambling with Steve Menary, who is a journalist, award winning journalist has written a lot on this topic and other topics that are relevant to the football politics, gambling topic. 

Francesco Belcastro 45:14

So, yeah, there's going to be an interesting one. I'm looking forward to that one. Yeah. But before that, I want to just say thank you again to Luisa. It's been an absolutely fascinating conversation. 

Francesco Belcastro 45:24

Keep us posted with and, you know, whenever these next research gets published, you know, you know, when when you have to you have to join us to talk about it. 

Luisa Turbino Torres 45:34

Once the book is out, invite by me again, we'll do a new updated podcast episode! But thank you for having me. This has been great. I love talking about this thing, so thanks. 

Francesco Belcastro 45:45

Well, thank you very much. 

Guy Burton 45:46

Thanks very much, and see you again next week then, Francesco. 

Francesco Belcastro 45:48

Bye, Guy. Bye, Luisa.