Israel's War on Gaza and Palestinian Football

Amidst the ongoing Israeli attack on Gaza, football might seem a secondary and even irrelevant aspect. Yet football offers a ghastly testimony of the destruction caused by the Israeli attack on Gaza, as well as the dynamics of occupation of Palestinian territory by the Israeli state.

In this episode, co-hosts Guy and Francesco speak to journalist Karim Zidan and  academic Kat Pijetlovic. Karim explains the impact of Israel’s occupation on the Palestinians’ ability to play football, as well as devastating impact of Israel’s war on Gazan football. Katarina, one of the initiators of the petition to exclude Israel from sport hosted by DiEM25, explains why sport and the sport boycott represent a key symbolic struggle for supporters of the Palestinian cause.

The petition, "Suspend Israel from international sports," can be accessed and signed at DiEM25 here.

Karim's Sports Politika SubStack newsletter is available here.

Transcript

FootPol – Israel’s War on Gaza and Palestinian Football ft. Karim Zidan and Katarina Pijetlovic

Guy Burton 00:09

Hello, and welcome to the latest edition of the FootPol podcast with football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm also joined by my other co -host, Francesco Belcastro. How are you doing, Francesco? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:19

I'm all right, Guy. How are you? 

Guy Burton 00:21

Yeah, doing well, doing well. Today we're talking about Gaza. I mean, this is something we've been talking a lot amongst ourselves about doing for a while, haven't we? 

Guy Burton 00:31

And in fact, you were the one who flagged it up a few months ago, weren't you? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:35

Yeah, I think it's quite important. We started a podcast at the beginning of October, and since then, the Gaza situation has been dominating the news. And now that it emerged, well, it's been clear for a while, there's an ongoing genocide there. 

Francesco Belcastro 00:51

Although we only speak about sport and politics, and sport is probably not the most important thing in this context. We thought we want to use our little space to talk about these issues. So that's what we're going to be doing today. 

Guy Burton 01:02

Yeah, and also, I mean, we also have, you know, personal connections to it as well, don't we? Because both of us are scholars of the Middle East. And, you know, I've actually spent some of my time as a researcher when I first finished my PhD, actually working in, you know, in West, in the West Bank in Palestine, you know, at Birzeit University. 

Guy Burton 01:17

And of course, you've got, you know, connections with that part of this world as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:22

I've got family connections with not with Palestine with Syria in my case but we both got different friends and contacts there so it's something we want to do for a while and I guess as human beings we feel very bad about what's more than very bad in my case about what's going on. 

Guy Burton 01:38

And so we will be talking politics, but obviously we're looking at it through the lens of football. So we're joined by two speakers today to talk to us about the impact that the war on Gaza is having on football there. 

Guy Burton 01:50

The first person we're going to be speaking to is Karim Zidan, who's an Egyptian -Canadian journalist. And the second is going to be Katarina Pijetlovic. Karim, welcome to the show. 

Karim Zidan 02:01

Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for having me, guys. 

Guy Burton 02:03

No, no, thank you. And just to sort of give the listeners a bit of a sense of who Karim is. So Karim is an Egyptian -Canadian journalist. He's a short story writer and translator, and he studied political science and international economic development at the University of Toronto before he began his career as a sports journalist for Vox Media. 

Guy Burton 02:20

Since then, he's also worked, well, he's really worked in the sort of the intersection of sports and politics, and he's done some investigative reporting on authoritarian regimes, such as those in Russia, Chechnya, and the Middle East. 

Guy Burton 02:31

And he's also published in mainstream outlets such as the New York Times, The Guardian, Foreign Policy, ESPN, and The American Prospect. He has a podcast and a NewStack newsletter called SportsPolitica.News, which we will link to in the show notes. 

Guy Burton 02:45

And we also encourage listeners to sign up to it themselves. In recent months, he's also been reporting on the impact of the war in Gaza, including on football there, which is precisely why we invited him. 

Guy Burton 02:55

So Karim, thank you again for coming to the show. And can we just start, I mean, with a little bit about what the current situation in Gaza is like, what's going on there, and certainly in the context of football? 

Guy Burton 03:06

I mean, football is obviously quite a minor aspect in relation to the wider war that's going on. But I wonder if you could talk us, take us through what's been happening for Gaza and Gazan football in particular, including footballers, administrators and the game's infrastructure there as a result of Israel's attacks. 

Karim Zidan 03:25

Well, you guys started by talking about your personal ties to this story and why it resonates with you so much. I'd like listeners to know that I'm also, as you mentioned, Canadian -Egyptian. I am Egyptian by birth and lived in the vast majority of my life in Egypt. 

Karim Zidan 03:38

I'm actually in Cairo right now and the situation has been tense here and I was in Cairo for October 7th as well. And I got to witness sort of the emergence of this tension and the sense of dread in Egypt throughout the country, really. 

Karim Zidan 03:54

I mean, we are on the border with Gaza and I want people to really understand what it means for a Gazan and an Egyptian. We consider ourselves brothers and sisters here to the point that for anyone who knows the Palestinian -Arabic accent, they would know that the Gazan accent is very close to that from Egypt as well. 

Karim Zidan 04:13

We eat similar food. We speak the same language even more so than other Arabs around us. We are so close to this situation. We feel it so strongly. And at the same time, we're in a situation where all of our countries are dominated by autocrats, authoritarians and military dictators. 

Karim Zidan 04:29

And these are the same people who are stifling our ability to even speak out on a topic like this. So it is extraordinarily frustrating on that side. And that's speaking to myself personally here in a situation like this. 

Karim Zidan 04:42

But of course, beyond that, what we've been witnessing for the past, what, seven months onwards now is the complete decimation and destruction of Gaza. That's what we've been witnessing. We can call it whatever we want here. 

Karim Zidan 04:54

It really doesn't make a difference. We're seeing it with our eyes. We know this is a genocide. We know what's happening. And we know that these Gazans, these Palestinians are now trapped in Rafah, Rafah so close to the Egyptian border. 

Karim Zidan 05:08

And we do not know what's coming next. What, more ethnic cleansing, more displacement? It's an extraordinarily difficult situation right now. So that's speaking to the broad, the broad context of what's happening. 

Karim Zidan 05:20

Now, I really think and I understand some people might say, well, sports doesn't really matter in a situation like this. Now, I would go and say, sure, it may not be the most important thing going on right now, but it is extraordinarily relevant to understanding the broader context here. 

Karim Zidan 05:37

Sports complements history, complements culture, and the destruction of sporting infrastructure done deliberately by the Israeli government is an attempt to annihilate Palestinian culture, Palestinian society, and Palestinian history. 

Karim Zidan 05:56

It's sporting history. This is another form of ethnic cleansing. This is why this topic is so important. Now, you asked me what's happening recently. Well, the Palestinian Football Association revealed just last month that at least 182 athletes and sports officials have been killed amidst Israel's destruction of Gaza, including no less than 28 children, right? 

Karim Zidan 06:20

Now, an overwhelming number of those athletes were members of Gaza's, you know, one's vibrant football ecosystem. So we can think of people like Hani Al -Musdar, the former player and manager of the Olympic team. 

Karim Zidan 06:32

What about, you know, Mohammed Barakat, Gaza's first centurion of goals and a former national team player who's known as the legend of Khan Yunis. This is what we're losing right now. Israel's also destroyed or partially destroyed, I don't know, countless football facilities at this point in Palestine since the start of the war. 

Karim Zidan 06:52

This really includes all, and I want people to really understand the emphasis here, all of Gaza's professional football stadiums, as well as the headquarters, all of which were targeted by Israeli airstrikes. 

Karim Zidan 07:05

Now, other smaller facilities and dirt pitches have been transformed into makeshift refugee camps, field hospitals, and worst of all, mass graves. Take that in for a second. This is a place where children used to be able to just kick a ball around, football being the national sport of the region, something we all play as a form of escapism, something to enjoy ourselves and to take our minds off the world around us. 

Karim Zidan 07:28

Now, we're burying our brothers and sisters in graves there. I mean, you can almost not separate what's happening in the sports landscape from what's happening to Gaza overall right now. That is my opinion. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:43

That's incredibly important to say a lot, incredibly sad, as people observe in that and as people that love sport. I mean, one thing that you mentioned, and I think it's incredibly important, is a constant source of frustration for people that follow the region and the media cycle, this emphasis on kind of the short term. 

Francesco Belcastro 08:01

So it looks almost as everything started the 7th of October. You know, the whole issue of the occupation and what happened before seemed to have just disappeared from sort of common from media accounts of the conflict. 

Francesco Belcastro 08:17

Even if we look at sport, however, you can see quite clearly how the plight of Palestinians did not really start in Gaza with the 7th of October. Can you tell us a bit about what was happening before the 7th of October in relation to sport and the impact that - while the siege of Gaza essentially started in 2007 - had on on Palestinians in Gaza? 

Karim Zidan 08:44

So it's a very, very important question. And I like to, when I'm asked a question like this, I like to say that there is really no justification for what's happened, the tragic events of October 7th, but there is absolutely an explanation for what happened. 

Karim Zidan 08:59

None of this occurred in a vacuum. An occupation did not begin overnight. There was no, as some Israelis and some in the media have claimed, a permanent ceasefire before October 7th. That's not how occupations work, right? 

Karim Zidan 09:17

And this, of course, not only applied to life as a Palestinian. I have plenty of Palestinian friends. I have friends from Gaza and they would tell me what it is like trying to get, forget about the ones from Gaza who couldn't actually even leave, but other Palestinians, Palestinians in the West Bank, Palestinians in Israel, they're talking to me about just the process of the segregation, the passing through checkpoints, checkpoints specific only to Palestinians, but not to Israelis. 

Karim Zidan 09:42

The access to resources and to stadiums, there is a significant contrast between being an Israeli and being a Palestinian. That level of segregation comes out in the sports landscape as well. This is not, none of this is happening in a vacuum. 

Karim Zidan 09:59

Politically speaking, Palestinians are treated as second and third grade citizens, if even citizens in this region whatsoever. And this, of course, applies to the world of sports. And that's why we have seen activists and movements such as the Boycott Divest Sanctions movement, the BDS movement attempt to have FIFA sanction Israel long before the most recent attempt post October 7th, which I'm sure we're going to discuss. 

Karim Zidan 10:28

So there have been accusations of Palestinian athletes being kept out of competitions... Players from the West Bank unable to leave to play overseas. This is an attempt to hinder the Palestinian team from being able to compete internationally. 

Karim Zidan 10:44

This is an ongoing issue that had that long predates October 7th. And that's something that's very important for people to understand. But it has clearly amplified since October 7th, because the truth is activists have long and unsuccessfully advocated for Israel's football association to be expelled or suspended and a lot of that has been because FIFA is the the the IFA, the Israeli Football Association has been hosting FIFA sanctioned matches in illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank. 

Karim Zidan 11:16

And we know this is an area that has been under Israeli military occupation since 1967. How is this OK? And how can we ever with a straight face say that sports does not intersect with politics or that the political situation is not relevant when we speak about sports? 

Karim Zidan 11:33

Here's the thing, though, it's not as if I'm creating a straw man argument here that nobody's actually saying this. This is the argument used by the IFA, Israel's Football Association right now. Whenever the topic of politics come up, they try and say, we are actually working very hard to make sports the one utopian area where we don't have to discuss politics, where politics doesn't poison society. 

Karim Zidan 11:57

Well, it's so easy when you're the occupier to say something like that. It's very, very easy when you're the occupier and you're in the position of power to say, oh, don't worry about that. That's privilege speaking right there. 

Karim Zidan 12:08

That's selfishness and privilege that speak. It doesn't speak to the actual situation. What about the Palestinian athletes? Right. What about them? This doesn't just speak to football, by the way. Something as simple a few weeks ago, I wrote an article just because my wife has started really getting into rock climbing. 

Karim Zidan 12:24

So I thought to myself, let's see how rock climbing coincides with the war. And it turns out very, very significantly, as a matter of fact, to the point that the vast majority of the the the the significant outdoor rock climbing routes are only accessible to Israelis, not to Palestinians. 

Karim Zidan 12:42

And even though they're accessible to Palestinians and when they actually make the trek out to get there on their own land in the West Bank, mind you, they are then harassed by Israeli officers with guns pointing at them and stuff like that. 

Karim Zidan 12:55

And just trying to climb rocks as sport - clearly as sport - is something that now endangers your life or makes you a threat to Israelis and to the Israeli military. So this is overall the current situation and explains honestly why we are seeing such a significant action and movement right now to attempt to sanction Israel in the world of sports. 

Francesco Belcastro 13:18

Can I just add one thing, just just a little note, I mean, we will talk to to Kat Pijetlovic later on on the issue of the boycott. But obviously, the sort of dimension there that it's very important that you refer to as the one of institutional complicity, right? 

Francesco Belcastro 13:33

Because I've been, as you mentioned, attempts to condemn Israel at FIFA and in the mid 2000s, it was quite it was actually quite close to to obtaining some sort of measure. And it was the leadership at the time, which was Sepp Blatter and people around the intervene. 

Francesco Belcastro 13:50

So there is almost almost football mirrors kind of injustice and and yet inequality at institutional level. Is that a fair assessment? 

Karim Zidan 14:05

Absolutely. This is absolutely a key assessment because I truly believe that not just football, football may be because it's the most popular sport in the world more than ever so, but sports in general mirror life. 

Karim Zidan 14:17

And when we say it's mirroring life, it's not mirroring the romanticized aspects of a pure utopian life. Quite the contrary. It is mirroring the absolute worst of life around us, the corruption, the backroom politicking, the injustices. 

Karim Zidan 14:36

That is what we see as a reflection of ourselves when we look at a TV screen and see sport games on TV. 

Guy Burton 14:43

Well, can I just come in here, because I'm glad, Karim, that you brought in the dimension of the West Bank as well, because I think so much of the attention, understandably and quite rightly, has been on Gaza since October the 7th, but this is obviously happening within a context of Palestinians facing difficulties elsewhere as well, including in the West Bank. 

Guy Burton 15:04

So it's important that we don't lose sight of that. But one of the things I wanted to ask you about, Karim, was obviously Gaza has its own internal politics. Well, Palestine has had its own internal politics over the last decade and a half. 

Guy Burton 15:17

So the Palestinian Football Association is based up in Ramallah, in the West Bank, and it controls football in Palestine. But Gaza itself has been controlled by the Hamas political group since 2007. And of course, there is a wider situation in Palestinian politics where Hamas has controlled Gaza and Fatah, the other major nationalist group, controls the West Bank. 

Guy Burton 15:43

Could you tell us a little bit about what effect this division has had on Palestinian football and what actually has been Hamas's attitude towards football in Gaza? 

Karim Zidan 15:54

That's a very complicated question. Unfortunately, the answer differs depending on who you ask. But more recently, when I have spoken to friends and I've spoken to people in the know and other journalists who are far more aware than I am with regards to this impact it's having on Palestinian athletes themselves and the football team. 

Karim Zidan 16:10

For instance, the question was being asked significantly while Palestine was competing in the Asian Cup just a few months ago, as to how sort of team morale was not just with what was taking place in Gaza, but the differing political mentality, because you've got people on the team from all sorts of areas in Palestine with different political beliefs, ideologies and understandings, including those who are far more supportive of Hamas versus those supportive of Fatah versus those who have entirely different worldviews. 

Karim Zidan 16:37

All are coming together unified right now. I think that's the key thing that we should be mentioning is that there is no, at least from what I have been told, division amongst them, or willingness to raise these political divisions at the moment. 

Karim Zidan 16:55

Now, how long something like that can last is extremely unclear. If we're being if we're being fair, and we're being honest, it's, it all of course depends on what happens in the next few months, there's far too many variables for us to really confidently say that one entity is more influential than the other right now. 

Karim Zidan 17:15

But the Palestinian Football Association is run by a man named Jibril Rajoub. Now, to say the fascinating character is, I think, really understating this man. But to try and summarize this a little bit, he does have a long history in Palestinian politics, right? 

Karim Zidan 17:40

He's a veteran leader from Fatah and and he's was really, at the point at least, considered amongst the successors for Mahmoud Abbas. Yeah, absolutely. Right. So that's how much political sway and influence and cachet the actual president of Palestine's Football Association has. 

Karim Zidan 17:57

And this is a man who has a history with Israel to in particular. So 1970, I think it was he was sentenced to life in prison for attacking Israeli soldiers or allegedly attacking Israeli soldiers. And he was part of the prisoners who was released in 1985, in that massive 1000 prisoner-prisoner swap at the time, he was deported to Lebanon, and during the First Intifada, and then he was brought back to the West Bank during the as part of the Oslo peace process. 

Karim Zidan 18:25

So we're talking about somebody who has has had a role in Palestinian politics for many decades now, right. And his continued influence in Palestinian football has definitely led people to at least people on the outside, we're talking, say, let's say, his his his Western counterparts and other football federations, and of course, Israel, in particular, to say that he is essentially utilizing Palestine's Football Association and Palestinian football in general as a political tool. 

Karim Zidan 18:56

So that's, of course, been their argument. And a very easy way to prove this right now that how much they fear a man like Jibril is that it was just what was it last week, a few weeks ago, where Israel and Israeli Minister, right? An Israeli Minister actually threatened to jail Jibril Rajoub, simply because he was bringing this sanctions case against Israel to the FIFA Congress in Bangkok. 

Karim Zidan 19:21

So I think I believe he called Jibril a terrorist in a suit, who openly supports Hamas, and that he said he can't wait to see him in prison kicking kicking a ball behind walls, basically. So this is the situation. 

Karim Zidan 19:35

That's a that's an open threat right there. And remember how I was saying that the Israeli Football Association is all about depoliticizing the sport? Well, just a few days later, they sent a letter to Gianni Infantino distancing themselves from the words of this Israeli minister, basically saying that he was, I'm trying to remember the exact turn of phrase here, flamboyant, flamboyant, threatening somebody with jail over over a completely, you know, legal recourse of and might bind you peaceful protest of bringing forth sanctions or a petition for sanctions. 

Karim Zidan 20:16

That now constitutes a threat for a life sentence in jail. And this is all that ends up being referred to as flamboyant. So the whole situation is is absolutely ridiculous. But it is fraught and it is filled with, let's say, some political tension from many different actors. 

Guy Burton 20:35

actors. For listeners who don't know, Mahmoud Abbas is actually the president of the Palestinian National Authority. So that the Palestinian Football Association president has been talked about as a successor to the Palestinian president: quite significant. 

Guy Burton 20:49

Sorry, Francesco. 

Francesco Belcastro 20:50

Yeah, I just want to ask a quick follow -up question. We actually have the FIFA Congress taking place. Is this something that listeners should keep an eye on? Anything to happen there? 

Karim Zidan 21:03

So the FIFA Congress is interesting. The proposal that the Palestinian Football Association has demanded that the FIFA Congress consider appropriate sanctions against Israel's Football Association for what they refer to as unprecedented international human rights and humanitarian law violations in Gaza, but generally across Palestine. 

Karim Zidan 21:27

They've raised many different breaches, and they went on to talk about the issues that the Israeli Football Association has been involved in for decades now. So they're not even just referencing incidents post -October 7th. 

Karim Zidan 21:41

They are dating it pre -October 7th. And this is really, really important. And right now, they have garnered the support of a handful of Middle Eastern, North African football associations. I think they have Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Algeria, and there's one more, I think, Yemen, I believe. 

Karim Zidan 22:00

Those are at least the ones I could remember when I was writing the article just a few weeks ago. I don't know if there's been any more added since then. But the reason I think this is interesting, at first, I would have, if you asked me a few weeks ago, I would have told you, I really don't think anything's going to change between now and what we've seen in previous conferences, whether it be 2017, et cetera, where situations like this were just dropped at the end of the day. 

Karim Zidan 22:23

I don't think unless, unless, unless Palestine, Palestinian Football Association is really able to get the backing of these extremely influential UEFA, so basically European Football Associations, it's very unlikely that they will gather enough votes or support to actually lead to the sanctioning of Israel. 

Karim Zidan 22:45

So the problem when we like to, we like to compare this a lot to, to, to Russia and Ukraine and then Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Russia's immediate expulsion from world sports and its, its, its transformation into a pariah state in a matter of hours, it seemed like at the time. 

Karim Zidan 23:03

Absolutely, there is obvious hypocrisy in front of us, but there's one key difference when we talk about it in a football and a football context, and that is European teams immediately refused to play against Russia. 

Karim Zidan 23:16

That was the key differentiator. It wasn't FIFA out of the kindness of its heart or out of, you know, just the strong moral compass deciding that it needed to ban, it needed to ban Russia. It was the actual nations with influence at the time, the ones who were actually playing Russia that were able to say, no, we refuse to play this country. 

Karim Zidan 23:36

And therefore there was no choice but to ban them. Those same countries now are too cowardly to make that same decision with Israel. They're simply too cowardly. Now we can once again refer this back to politics, we can do all sorts of things. 

Karim Zidan 23:49

But actually, one of the really interesting things that was said today by Lise Klaveness, who is the head of the Norwegian Football Association, is that if this does come to a vote on May 7- on May 17, that would be, it would be very difficult for her as the head of the federation not to vote in favor of sanctions, given the genocide that's underway. 

Karim Zidan 24:14

She - and this is really important coming from her because she is somebody who for years now has said that she does not believe in sanctions and bans as an appropriate measure or a effective measure, let's say. 

Karim Zidan 24:29

And that political responses to sports events is not really the approach she would take. Yet she is also willing to vote for the sanctions against Israel. I think that is super relevant. So really, we've come to a situation where anything can happen. 

Karim Zidan 24:46

I think the situation has become so dire in Gaza that people really feel the need to speak out, to have a response. It's very difficult to stomach the slaying, the murder of this many innocent people. 

Karim Zidan 25:02

And any place in the world, mind you, this isn't about Palestine being an exceptional place, but this is simply us having a level of empathy and humanity that shouldn't be difficult to request from the world. 

Karim Zidan 25:15

Yet somehow we're in a situation where we're begging for people to show the slightest bit of conscience here. It's frustrating. So I'm really interested to see what happens in the Congress and whether my cynical understanding that sports reflects the worst parts of society actually will come true again, once again in a matter of days. 

Guy Burton 25:36

Well, thank you very much for that, Karim. Really very useful and also very much needed. So, we appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Francesco, is there anything else you want to say? 

Francesco Belcastro 25:48

No, I just really, really thank Karim for his time and it's been, we've learned a lot. It's an episode we felt like we needed to do and we'll now talk to Kat about the sport of boycotts specifically, and I think that will complement very well this conversation that we have, but thank you very much, Karim, for clarifying things, for explaining things to us in a way that makes it much, much easier to have a good conversation. 

Karim Zidan 26:14

It was absolutely my pleasure. And honestly, I think if listeners take away one thing, it's that we, we sit here and argue too much about the politics of things and what side we need to fall on. I think it's important for us to say that something like human rights and, and, and the rights of the universal rights that we all get to enjoy in our places of privilege are not, are not political. 

Karim Zidan 26:36

This is not something that you need to fall on left or right, or have some sort of ideological bias to accept. This is something that we should all be striving for at all times. And this is one of those examples right here. 

Guy Burton 26:47

Well said. Thank you very much for that, Karim. 

Francesco Belcastro 26:49

Thank you, Karim. 

Karim Zidan 26:51

My pleasure. 

Francesco Belcastro 26:52

We now move on to something slightly more specific, we stay on the same topic, but we want to talk a bit about the possibility or the option of a sport boycott against the state of Israel. And there's been much in the news in the last couple of months. 

Francesco Belcastro 27:09

And to do that, we've got an expert, we got Dr. Katarina Pijetlovic, who is an assistant professor of law at Catolica Global School of Law and Catolica Lisbon School of Law. Her interests include the application of EU economic laws to the sporting industry, in particular the legal issues surrounding breakaway leagues, as well as fundamental rights of athletes and governance structures. 

Francesco Belcastro 27:30

She lectures in sports law and EU competition law courses. She's published widely on the topic, including authoring a book on EU sport laws and breakaway leagues in football in 2015. 

Francesco Belcastro 27:47

However, she's here because she's been involved, she's been one of the founder of one of the main petitions started around the issue of the sport boycott in the case of Israel and Palestine. Katarina, thanks for joining us. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 28:03

Thank you for having me. 

Guy Burton 28:05

We're just mentioning that there are efforts to try and bring about a sports boycott of Israel, so I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the work that you've been doing. I know that you've been quite active in organizing and disseminating a petition in this regard. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 28:21

Well, yes, it became clear quite early already in October that there are some double standards happening. If you look at the treatment of Russia and Ukraine conflict by the sports governing bodies and how quickly they reacted. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 28:36

So practically the same day that Russia invaded Ukraine, they all condemned that act. And four days later, Russia was already banned. And right now we have what, six, seven months of basically a genocide in most people's opinions. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 28:55

And it is completely ignored by everybody in the sports industry. Sports governing bodies have completely repressed this issue and we can talk about that in more specific terms. But it became clear that something needs to be done to expose this hypocrisy and double standards. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 29:16

So a petition that gathers signatures from people asking governing bodies to ban Israel from international sports until such time as it complies with international human rights, humanitarian law. And it is now on dm25.org website. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 29:35

This is an organization that has agreed to host and co -organize and help disseminate the petition. Right now it has 100 ,000 signatures on it and it is open for signing. So anybody who wants to sign can find it on dm25.org. 

Guy Burton 29:54

And this is focusing on UEFA and FIFA when we come to football specifically? I know you're talking about sports governing bodies more generally, but when we talk about football, it's UEFA and FIFA?

Katarina Pijetlovic 30:08

Definitely. So, of course, football being the most important sport in the world, the widest following, and I think it is crucial that football does act. However, it is even more crucial at International Olympic Committee Act, because this is an umbrella organization for all other organizations. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 30:28

And if IOC actually publishes recommendations, they're likely to be followed by everybody, all the governing bodies, including football, including FIFA. We know in football, what is happening, I guess, that when FIFA elected Infantino back in what, 2016, that the Israeli Football Association was quite happy about it. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 30:51

They said Infantino is a good friend of Israel. And as long as he's a president, there won't be any sanctions on Israel. And it was back then, you know, so now nine years later, it sounds very, very familiar. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 31:04

When we see what did that in fact mean in practice? 

Francesco Belcastro 31:08

Can I ask you what has been the reaction? The number of signatures is impressive, but other than that, how has the petition been welcomed? Has there been a lot of opposition to it? 

Katarina Pijetlovic 31:20

The petition really, and we are under no illusion that this can cause any change in itself and of itself. Obviously, we always knew that this petition has to be integrated into a wider action, and there are plenty of organizations right now, like Irish Sport for Palestine, has been at the forefront of organizing, of networking with similar organizations, of which there are now dozens all over the world. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 31:52

And together, we have collected everybody that has the same objective. And we have recently written a letter to EU institutions, including Mr. Schinas, who is the vice president of the European Commission, Mr. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 32:13

Borrell, who is also the vice president and the high representative of the EU for foreign affairs and security policy. I guess everybody knows about Mr. Borrell these days. We have written to a sports unit in the Commission, and to all the members of European Parliament, all 705 of them. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 32:31

This letter has been sent just a few days ago. And so let's see, it's been signed by 12 different organizations, and let's see what will happen to it, how the EU institutions will respond, what we ask them to do is to put pressure on the sports governing bodies to apply their own statutes. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 32:53

Nothing more than that, because if FIFA applied their own statutes, and if UEFA applied their own statutes, Israel would have already been suspended long ago, even before this October, you know, 2023, because there are a lot of breaches of FIFA and UEFA regulations, such as their clubs are basically openly racist, claiming to be forever pure and being proud of it that they are Arab-free. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 33:21

And this has never been punished by Israeli FA. Other thing which is even more obvious, I guess, is the fact that Israeli FA is allowing clubs from illegal settlements on Palestinian territories to play in its league, and it's also hosting matches on the Palestinian territories, which is completely contrary to express rules in statutes. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 33:48

So the question that, you know, everybody can ask from Infantino and Ceferin [UEFA president], why are you not applying your own statutes? What's going on? Obviously, there is something going on. You know, people, even the people who don't really follow football, if they know this fact, they can see that there are other strings being pulled in the background. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 34:06

So the question that they cannot really answer. 

Francesco Belcastro 34:12

Sorry, Guy, going back to some of the points raised by Karim as well before. Now, there's been quite an effort in terms of sport as an area of interest for the BDS movement as well. You can think about the sort of Red Card Israel campaign. 

Francesco Belcastro 34:29

Why is sport important? Why do we think that sport can be an area where even symbolically important results can be reached, Katarina? 

Katarina Pijetlovic 34:42

Well, sport is not like any other industry, as some as one of my colleagues put it in one of his articles, it's not like sausage making industry, it does have impact on the society that no other industry has, it brings people together, and it is followed widely, there is no nobody's following, you know, your furniture, manufacture, but sport, and as such is a completely different industry, and it's treated even differently under the law. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 35:09

So we can say that there is a lot of passion that sport brings, that you know, families, communities gather around a club, gather around Olympics together, you know, to watch and observe their teams, their athletes participate, this is something that is a part of culture, you know, and that is why sport is of extreme importance. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 35:33

And if the boycott, and if it ever happens that Israel gets suspended, it will be a huge victory for the BDS movement in general, because it will be first of all, sign that international community does not accept some things. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 35:53

Right now, we are allowing Israeli associations and as well as government to act with impunity so far. So if they are banned, it will be a signal that if you want to be a part of international community, and Israel is playing in European structures, not in Asia where it belongs, then you have to respect basic human rights, you have to respect humanitarian laws, and so on. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 36:22

So this is a this is this would be a huge victory and a huge step forward in any of in effecting changes, basically. Again, we are under no illusion that this in and of itself would achieve, you know, in the Middle East, but it would definitely be a significant contributor to everything else that will probably happen eventually. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 36:46

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that everything is a bit too late. 

Guy Burton 36:51

Yeah. I mean, can I just add to that? I mean, we've talked, obviously you flagged up and we will link in the show notes to the petition as well. So if you could just remind listeners where they can sign up. 

Guy Burton 37:03

But also, is there anything else other than signing the petition that listeners can do? 

Katarina Pijetlovic 37:08

Yes, of course, you can log on to IOC website, FIFA website, UEFA website, just type in the Google search, who are their sponsors, and see who sponsors these games, who sponsors World Cup, who sponsors UEFA Champions League, and you'll find companies such as Coca -Cola, such as, you know, well, there are probably about 30 companies that you should have on your list. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 37:38

And these are the companies that you should boycott and download No Thanks app and start shopping accordingly. So if you as a person feel that you're completely helpless, you cannot do anything that is not true. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 37:54

Sign the petitions. Go to protests. If there are any matches being played, maybe go and stage a protest. And everything, of course, needless to say, should be peaceful and should not bring anybody in danger, which is something that I guess so far has not been a major issue from the pro -Palestinian protests at all. 

Francesco Belcastro 38:18

It has, no- It has been an issue from the other side since we have seen the terrific way, in which, terrible way, the violent way in which the peaceful student protests have been addressed in the States in the last couple of days. 

Francesco Belcastro 38:31

It's been horrible. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much, Katarina. 

Guy Burton 38:36

That's been really useful. Thank you, thank you.

Francesco Belcastro 38:38

Yeah. And listeners, please do follow Katarina's advice. It's very important not to lose hope. 

Francesco Belcastro 38:44

And it's very easy to do that. But it's important to do what we can and we can do a lot as individuals. So thank you very much. 

Guy Burton 38:52

If you could just remind us, Katarina, where exactly is the petition again? 

Katarina Pijetlovic 38:56

You can find it on Diem- It's like Carpe Diem, so Diem25.org website. 

Guy Burton 39:03

Brilliant. And as we said, we will link in the show notes to that as well. Thank you so much, Katarina, for taking the time. We really appreciate it. 

Katarina Pijetlovic 39:10

Thanks, both of you. Bye bye.

Francesco Belcastro 39:11

Thank you, Katarina. And thank you, Karim. Thank you very much. 

Guy Burton 39:14

Yeah, thanks. Well, that was really interesting, Francesoa. I think we've gained considerable amounts from listening to both Karim and Katarina. But I think now we need to sort of just remind listeners what they need to do, you know, moving ahead. 

Guy Burton 39:29

So what are the usual things we asked them to do at the end of all this? 

Francesco Belcastro 39:33

Well, there is an unusual thing to remind them, which is check the petition out, we're going to post a link, so have a look and if you agree, do sign it. We also need to remind them a few important things, not as important as we spoke about, but important for our little podcast. 

Francesco Belcastro 39:50

One is to get in touch with us with advices, feedback, ideas for guests, for episodes. It's very important for us that listeners tell us we're doing well and not doing well. How we can improve and most of all what topics we should be covering. 

Francesco Belcastro 40:07

They can find us in different ways, right? We are on all the social media. We are on X Twitter. We are on Facebook. 

Guy Burton 40:16

We're on LinkedIn. 

Francesco Belcastro 40:17

You are on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn sometimes. We are on Blue Sky, although there's no one else anymore there, but we are still there. 

Guy Burton 40:24

Yeah. 

Francesco Belcastro 40:25

And that's so, yeah, please do get in touch and let us know. Yeah. With any advice and with any suggestion for new episodes. Then the other thing is to please like, share, follow whatever their platform suggests, allows them to do to support the podcast. 

Francesco Belcastro 40:45

It's quite important for us. Talk about the podcast with friends, colleagues, recommended. And the final thing is that we'll be back on Monday, so a week time with a new episode. 

Guy Burton 41:00

Yep, great. Well, listen, Francesco, it's been good talking to you and Karim and Katharina today and so I'll talk to you again then next week. So take care. Have a good week. Bye. 

Francesco Belcastro 41:09

Bye -bye.