Diego Maradona, arguably the greatest talent ever to grace a football pitch, played for several clubs as well as the Argentinian national team. His image, however, is closely tied to the city of Naples and its football club. In the second of this week's double episodes on the politics of Diego Maradona, co-hosts Guy and Francesco talk to Italian sociologist and Napoli fan, Luca Bifulco. Luca explains how Maradona operated in and around the divisions and contradictions present in Italy during the 1980s as well as the political and social factors that have contributed to his 'deification' in Naples. Luca explores how Naples, a southern city, was perceived by Italy's political elites and how Maradona worked on those ideas during his time at the club and especially during Italia 90.
Diego Maradona, arguably the greatest talent ever to grace a football pitch, played for several clubs as well as the Argentinian national team. His image, however, is closely tied to the city of Naples and its football club. In the second of this week's double episodes on the politics of Diego Maradona, co-hosts Guy and Francesco talk to Italian sociologist and Napoli fan, Luca Bifulco. Luca explains how Maradona operated in and around the divisions and contradictions present in Italy during the 1980s as well as the political and social factors that have contributed to his 'deification' in Naples. Luca explores how Naples, a southern city, was perceived by Italy's political elites and how Maradona worked on those ideas during his time at the club and especially during Italia 90.
The Politics of Maradona Part 2: Diego and the City of Naples ft. Luca Bifulco
Guy Burton 00:09
Hello and welcome to another episode of the FootPol Podcast with football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co -host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing?
Francesco Belcastro 00:20
Good. We are back for part number 2.
Guy Burton 00:21
We are indeed. In fact if you didn't already know this is actually a double header on when we're talking to and remind us Francesco what we're talking about?
Francesco Belcastro 00:31
We're talking about the politics of Diego Maradona, and this is as good as the Godfather. The Godfather I was good, and the Godfather II was just as good if some people might say better. So our double -header is just as good.
Guy Burton 00:44
Well, this is actually kind of quite appropriate why you talk about the Godfather, because whereas the first episode, which if you haven't listened to, go and have a listen to it, was very much about global Maradona.
Guy Burton 00:54
This one is more about local maradona, or rather more specifically, maradona in Italy and particularly Naples, which, I mean, forgive me, Francesco, I'm not an Italian, you are. But as far as I'm aware, the Godfather, southern Italy, so...
Francesco Belcastro 01:09
It's not Sicily, but not too far, not too far, but...
Guy Burton 01:13
I know I know it's not the mainland I know but it's...
Francesco Belcastro 01:15
Yeah, for our Sicilian listeners who might I might be unhappy with...0
Guy Burton 01:21
And who might be reaching to switch off this episode: Stop! Listen. So this is the second part, as we said. So what we're going to be talking about in this episode is Maradona and the politics that he had and he was involved in while he was playing in Italy, and particularly for Naples.
Guy Burton 01:39
And to do that, we're joined actually by a really useful and very interesting guest, Luca Bifulco, who's a professor of sociology at the University of Naples. Just to sort of put listeners in the picture about Luca's background and get a sense of who he is, as I mentioned.
Guy Burton 01:57
So he is a sociology professor and he has a particular focus in cultural and communication processes there in Naples. And yes, he has written on a bunch of other things, but particularly when it comes to football and Diego Maradona, he's been the co -editor of the 2023 book.
Guy Burton 02:13
And I'm not even going to try and attempt this in Francesco, you can tell me. But in English, the book is Global Maradona: From Man to Sporting Hero, From Celebrity to Myth. Do you want to try that?
Francesco Belcastro 02:26
I think as an Italian, I should be able to. Global Maradona: Dall’uomo all’eroe sportivo dalla celebrità al mito.
Guy Burton 02:33
Yeah.
Francesco Belcastro 02:33
It's the title in Italian. Can we also add that that Luca is a Napolitano. He's from Napoli himself.
Francesco Belcastro 02:40
So he witnessed a lot of the acts and politicalness of Maradona and his role in the city of Napoli first hand, despite being very young.
Guy Burton 02:52
Yeah. So, Luca, welcome to the show.
Luca Bifulco 02:55
Thank you. Thank you for your invite.
Guy Burton 02:56
So, listen, can we start, because the relationship between the city of Napoli and Maradona is very unique. And so Maradona is more than a football icon, he's venerated in the city almost as a semi -divinity, you know, there's been references to shrines and muralis and that sort of thing in the city.
Guy Burton 03:14
I mean, how much can this be explained by Italy's own political dynamics, and particularly a sense of marginalization, and to a certain extent, the oppression felt by the people of Naples towards the north of the country in particular.
Luca Bifulco 03:32
Maradona has a political dimension in Naples, of course, but it is a further dimension.
Luca Bifulco 03:40
Maradona is certainly the most present image in the city of Naples at this moment.
Luca Bifulco 03:45
He's a bit of a central focus now on the Napoleon image and culture, essentially representing the city of Neapolitans and probably the Neapolitans in the world.
Luca Bifulco 03:57
That is, many people who come to Naples, even Argentine colleagues who come to Naples or Brazilians, have come in this period and go around the city, let's say, are amazed and impressed by the ubiquitous presence of Maradona's image.
Luca Bifulco 04:13
In Naples, in short, many say he is loved more than in Argentina, and certainly in a substantial different way. The reasons are many. In short, they are football, they are social, they are political, and the most extensive and broad sense of the term.
Luca Bifulco 04:31
In short, Maradona is certainly a sporting hero and hero of the city.
Luca Bifulco 04:38
What is the concept of a sporting hero?
Luca Bifulco 04:42
Yes, he's a sportsman, he's an excellent athlete who allows a community of fans or citizens to identify themselves with his sporting exploits.
Luca Bifulco 04:55
He's exploring excellence and he's exploring glory and make it their own.
Luca Bifulco 05:03
Your results, your excellence, becomes in some way something in which I participate in share of your glory. Your successes are part of the successes of a community.
Luca Bifulco 05:20
This is basically what has happened in Naples. Maradona has become a very strong symbol of belonging,
Luca Bifulco 05:29
because he won in Naples, a city that had never won anything important in terms of football.
Luca Bifulco 05:37
Naples, it was a city at that time in the 1980s, it had great socioeconomic problems, but it wasn't a city completely, so to speak, distant from the systems of power, substantially because it had an important bank, the Bank of the Napoli, it had a good part, even several prominent figures of the Christian democracy, that is, of the most important government of the time, were Neapolitans or Campagnian.
Luca Bifulco 06:12
And by the way, their presence, these politicians, this meant that Maradona's arrival in Naples could materialize.
Luca Bifulco 06:21
It clearly had its long -term socio -economic problems. It's also important, it's considered that the earthquake had also occurred shortly thereafter.
Luca Bifulco 06:33
In short, the 1980s had a lot of socioeconomic problems including the problems that the earthquake brought.
Luca Bifulco 06:47
And then there was purely a sporting issue.
Luca Bifulco 06:50
But in Naples, and probably not only in Naples, but in Naples in particular, there is a very strong idea that the sport, destiny and the fate of the city are seen in an imaginary way as something closely covered.
Luca Bifulco 07:08
Basically, from a clearly imaginary point of view, I have often interviewed Neapolitan for sociological reasons.
Luca Bifulco 07:16
Luca Bifulco 07:19
And everyone knows that football is simply a sport, something that is essentially separate. However, on an emotional level, as it often happens with athletes, fans, et cetera.
Luca Bifulco 07:34
You're invest part of yourself in sport. Sport somehow represents you beyond the purely sporting sphere. This is what happened in Naples. Manadona was a charismatic leader in the very Weberian sense of the term, fforgive the technical element. In short, that is, in the sense of a leader who is considered the better of the very great unique special qualities. First of all, stored football qualities. A leader that breaks with the established order takes on its shoulder, ideally, figuratively, the destiny of a community.
Luca Bifulco 08:17
That is a community of fans, but also a community of citizens and is revolutionary.
Luca Bifulco 08:23
That is: breaks with the established order of both from the point of view of football powers and from the point of view ideally of north -south relationship, that is the economically rich north and the poor or in any case subordinate south of this point of view and reversing.
Luca Bifulco 08:44
That is, winning in Naples will have a very strong impact. The football championship is won for the first time, then it will be won on another time, and then there will be also the UEFA Cup. In short, it acts strongly on the feeling of bright and individual collective self -esteem.
Luca Bifulco 09:07
Of the fans, that is, the Napolitan football -wise finally feels like a winner. So much so that this victory triggers the famous, as I call it, rhetoric of social redemption. That is the idea of a social redemption, my new, is rhetoric.
Luca Bifulco 09:24
So with all the problems of rhetoric, this idea that there was a symbolic redemption of the city.
Luca Bifulco 09:31
Therefore, in that area, it was actually experienced in this way on an emotional level by many fans. Today, the victory, for example, last year, was not experienced in this same way. Napoli is completely different, and this idea had completely changed, despite the fact that some of the ideas remain, strong imbalances between the North and South of the country.
Luca Bifulco 09:55
Also, a resentment from this point of view, still, last year's victory was also experienced in a very different way.
Luca Bifulco 10:05
Also because this year's win arrived in a very different way.
Luca Bifulco 10:10
But actually, the victory of Maradora's Napoli triggered this rhetoric, which is still present for those who remember that era, essentially a symbolic redemption compared to the problems of the South, but also, let's say, the disdain and also the arrogance of the North from an economic point of view, from a cultural point of view and from a football point of view towards the South and Naples in particular.
Luca Bifulco 10:35
There's at least one question. There will be several, but at least one other, very important from this point of view. And that is that Maradona not only won, but he won it in a footballing style, and not just footballing, though its Napolitan-ness is generally represented.
Luca Bifulco 10:57
And not only that, Neapolitans often represented themselves with this style, right? He was a little undisciplined, a little anarchic, and little resistant of the rules. In short, a little rebellious, but loyal about all this towards his teammates, capable of overcoming his own difficulties and adversities based on a genius and outstanding talent.
Luca Bifulco 11:19
The ability to, how could I say, manage in a brilliant way, even smart cunning, that is, to solve certain issues and circumstances that are to some extent adverse from this point of view.
Luca Bifulco 11:36
Mind you this is a way in which Neapolitan nature is represented the Neapolitan is not like that be careful because this is also an imaginary representation it may seem strange to you but the Neapolitans are complying with laws punctual workers but the idea of the Neapolitanness is this in Maradona. He won and demonstrated that Naples could win in football.
Luca Bifulco 12:02
And symbolically, also, in a broader sense, with the style identified as the Neapolitan one. Over this time, clearly, the image of Maradona became dogma in Webberian terms, were reused the charisma because of a deep -rooted belief, and was transmitted from one generation to the other generation.
Luca Bifulco 12:23
Clearly, today's generation, who haven't seen him play, but still feel his charm and importance of a community is the point of view. When I say they've seen him play, I mean, they haven't seen him play.
Luca Bifulco 12:37
Because clearly, then they have seen the videos and have the stories of those who were there, in short. Then they clearly leave the character as a fundamental character of the city's culture and identity.
Luca Bifulco 12:49
They may have a slightly less strong emotional bond than those who were there and who leave the charismatic leader in person. However, fundamentally, this belief, I repeat, has become dogma. So it has become an unassailable belief that Maradona was the best.
Luca Bifulco 13:06
Maradona was the greatest. Maradona is a semi -divinity.
Luca Bifulco 13:12
Essentially maradona is one of the is the one who beat the north he's one which brought pride back to naples football and so on and i believe this dogma is so deeply rooted that is it has become a strong community from an emotional point of view this thing exploded further after his death with his dead there was a city mourning we were practically in lockdown period
Luca Bifulco 13:42
Really, therefore, a strong citizen morning which was expressed physically, i .e. in the streets, etc., and clearly online, and also deeply felt by the new generations. And then afterwards, with the victory of the 2023 championship, in the victory of the championship, and in the celebrations, in the banners, in the images from the city, Maradona was the most present figure, more than footballers,
Luca Bifulco 14:09
More than the coach Maradona, the central figure, often close to Napoli players who won the Scudetto in 2023, because there was this idea, almost as if he had been some sort of help from the crescendos, from above.
Luca Bifulco 14:25
So if you think about it, this is something with many Argentine colleagues who joke about it a lot. But after Maradona's victory, Argentina won the World Cup and Napoli won the Scudetto.
Luca Bifulco 14:37
So a sociologist could say that this is a spurious correlation, but someone who maybe had a great belief in the influence of the afterlife, he might think differently.
Francesco Belcastro 14:47
Luca, that's great. I wanted to ask you, now, you referenced this idea of symbolism, right? Now, from almost an Italian, a national point of view, Italia 90, the World Cup that is held in Italy, represents almost the sort of more symbolic aspect of this, because there is famously the first match, which I think is Argentina Cameroon in Milan, in which Maradona is echoed, is insulted, and he reacts in a very Maradona way,
Francesco Belcastro 15:18
like way, I would encourage listeners to go on YouTube and Google that, and Google that on YouTube, and it's quite clear the reaction. And then there is the semi -final, which is played ironically, perhaps, in Napoli, and that according to Italian folklore, almost, divides the city of Napoli, between those who support Maradona and those who support the national team.
Francesco Belcastro 15:45
Is this a fair account? Is there like an issue of national identity versus local identity, or is it part of the of the legend, would you say?
Luca Bifulco 16:16
Both things. Let's say a sociologist who wants to be a sociologist never sees things without the complexity in the way that they are articulated. So let's consider the period and the context. It's a context in which various socio -economic identity and football rivalries are intertwined.
Luca Bifulco 16:50
Let's think about the football I mentioned first. Napoli had just won the championship and this thing clearly affected many teams and their fans. And also the political leaders rooted in football power.
Luca Bifulco 17:03
Perhaps it wasn't very popular, while the victory of the championship was a refreshing victory, so to speak.
Luca Bifulco 17:11
How nice, somehow. We all love each other, Napoli won and so forth. The second, let's say, it was seen almost as an undue interference on the part of the team as its leader, an uncomfortable controversial leader, even vociferous, so to speak, and didn't send it, means who spoke directly and uncomprisingly, as they say, as they say in Italy.
Luca Bifulco 17:35
Therefore, a very uncomfortable presence and always opposed to forms and consolidated football power.
Luca Bifulco 17:45
He was not sane. His contribution in several aspects of his life, basically, however, Napoli...
Luca Bifulco 17:52
had just won the Scudetto.
Luca Bifulco 17:55
This thing was not very popular in Italian football, and often with football fans. Maradona was identified as a representative of Napoli, a person who was not very popular at the time, and who attracted little sympathy aside from Napolitans fans, from the non -Napolitans fans.
Luca Bifulco 18:13
And therefore, all of this set of aspects led to something not very edifying for Italy, really. That of whistling the national anthem of a visiting team.
Luca Bifulco 18:29
You host an event, you must essentially guarantee the well -being of the event and also the ethical dimension that surrounds an event of this size. Then the Argentine national team was put during the national anthem in particular because all these things considered on the pitch during the match, it can happen but during the national anthem it's an unpleasant thing and it happened in all the matches more or less because then it is enough to start certain behaviors and certain actions that essentially spread in an epidemic manner.
Luca Bifulco 19:04
By imitation he was booed also because Maradona represented also Naples and Naples at the time, like maybe even now he was the object of a prejudice, a bit like Southern Italy, of a prejudice from the rest of the country and also of discrimination on the cultural side.
Luca Bifulco 19:23
Not only sport -wise because in sport then substantially broader cultural factors converged in sport. And at a certain point there was this quercio de distino, this twist of fate which is an unexpected thing that was absolutely unforeseen because no one would have predicted that the Argentine national team would be capable of going deep in the world.
Luca Bifulco 19:52
Even up to the final, and probably even to win the final, because it was truly a modest team and a modest level part from Maradona who by then, however, was already in the fading phase of his career. The thing is, unexpected, is that Argentina challenges Italy in the semi -final at the San Paulo in Naples, that is essentially the home of Maradona and the Napoli fans.
Luca Bifulco 20:16
At this point, the problem also begins from the point of view of public discourse.
Luca Bifulco 20:22
And from an identity point of view, let's consider one thing. Even different identities, even conflicting ones, but conflictual is not always a negative term. That is, different identities who can point the difference or opposition cannot coexist within a community, and even within the same person.
Luca Bifulco 20:41
That is, a person can feel Neapolitan and Italian at the same time. Naturally, there are points of friction with these two identities, including the fact that a certain Italy, to some extent, perceives Neapolitan with the sense of prejudice, and that this prejudice, perhaps, is also reciprocated by the Neapolitan.
Luca Bifulco 21:03
In short, from the Neapolitan, there is a great factor of identity and local pride, which can perhaps lead to conflict, not with some elements of Italianness, but in general in a different way depending on the person.
Luca Bifulco 21:19
Identities can also substantially coexist despite these forms of contradiction. In some cases, they can. But a person can support Naples and can support Italy. Most of them support Italy. Even the support for Italy is less warm than the support for Napoli.
Luca Bifulco 21:37
It gets harder when the competition are important, I mean in Naples.
Luca Bifulco 21:45
Naturally, when the competitions are important and we move towards the final phases, therefore it is that we can discover from this deep -rooted sense of belonging, also from the national point of view, in this specific case.
Luca Bifulco 22:01
So in the case of the semi -final played in Naples, this friction, this contradiction was more explicit and all made explicit in the public discourse. It was also made explicit by Maradona, who was and has always been a leader with great political skills and also very cunning.
Luca Bifulco 22:17
He instrumentally wiped out the Neapolitans by saying something that was true.
Luca Bifulco 22:22
Lambs.
Luca Bifulco 22:23
You are always put in all Italian states. You are insulted, you are not Italian, you are African. That at the time, you are African.
Luca Bifulco 22:35
I don't know why, it was essentially an insult, and so on. And now they want you to cheer at the top of your lungs for Italy, and he says, how come you are Italian, Maradona was saying? How come you are Italian one day a year?
Luca Bifulco 22:50
It's just this day. It's just July 3rd you have to be Italian. So it was clearly a very instrumental speech. He was one that knew how to place himself, but he fit in very well even with his crude manner.
Luca Bifulco 23:09
But it fit well into the public debate and therefore it created further friction by essentially trying to take a local pride. I repeat, from the most part of Napolitans fans, this contradiction, if you want to call it that, perhaps somewhat of a strong term between the national identity and the local one, the Napolitans fans recompense it quite easily in his daily life and also in football terms.
Luca Bifulco 23:36
In fact, for the most part, from what I remember clearly, of course everyone did what they wanted, but for the most part, for the vast majority of Napolitans fans, the support was for Italy. But highlighting clearly, not against Argentina. And above all, against Maradona. Then if you want, let's think for a moment about public discourse.
Luca Bifulco 24:39
So a slightly different question is what the public debate was, what the public discourse was in the press in particular, although the two are related.
Luca Bifulco 24:51
That is, in the sense, I happen to do a specific study on public discourse in the national press, and in that which had a local dimension, either because it had a local target from Naples, Campania, or the south, or because the journalists were national level.
Luca Bifulco 25:12
But they were Neapolitans, in short, to understand, to analyze the factors of the debate linked to the semi -final match in the San Paolo. There, there were actually two opposing ideologies, that of national belonging, nationality on one hand, and that local pride that the other had essential to some of the issues.
Luca Bifulco 25:42
Immediately as soon as it became clear that Argentina would challenge Italy in the semi -final, also due to a series of comments from the Italian national team members.
Luca Bifulco 25:55
Basically, it was immediately created this focus on what would have been the reaction of the Neapolitans fan.
Luca Bifulco 26:07
Let's consider that belonging and subscribing to a particular national identity, from a political point of view, Michael Billing described as banal nationalism, it is a given, it's a given which we say it does not capture the fact that the nation is in any case a socially constructed belonging, which does not mean that it is not important, it is very important.
Luca Bifulco 26:35
Substantially, however, it is taken for granted that the ideological priority is that of national belonging. And this clearly happens with the press. That is, a lot of what was said, many of the arguments at the time were related to an evaluation of the Italianness of Naples, how Italian Naples would be.
Luca Bifulco 27:01
Given that it's taken for granted, that national belonging is a priority. Now let's estimate how much Naples will subscribe to this idea, which cannot be opposed, right? Because it would be natural.
Luca Bifulco 27:15
It is not in reality, but in public discourse it is in rhetoric.
Luca Bifulco 27:21
It is natural. And in fact, we often hear the term betray. How much of Napoli would betray, if Napoli would betray? In what terms would Napoli betray? Therefore, there are talks of Maradona. That is, Naples is defined as Maradonia by some.
Luca Bifulco 27:40
That is the city of Maradona, substantially.
Luca Bifulco 27:45
Maradona is defined as an araufa popolo, someone who brown noses and mocks the people, and Neopolitans as victims of populism, potentially there is something called Campanilism dimension, that is the idea of local belonging has an idea to a local identity is defined.
Luca Bifulco 28:06
Certainly second -rate existing, it is not completely denigrated, but it must remain in the background. Otherwise, we are faced with a sort of betrayal.
Luca Bifulco 28:18
The attitude of national press towards Naples is that of great paternalism, okay?
Luca Bifulco 28:25
Basically, let's see how you support Italy, if you do it, and how well, and so on. The local press, on the other hand, mostly contrasts a form of inverse self -self -esteem.
Luca Bifulco 28:39
We could almost call it. They say national priorities recognize. Look, Naples recognizes. Naples, and therefore the Neapolitan press and the Neapolitan intellectuals, even the Neapolitan fans, basically, according to journalists on a one more local level, Naples recognizes that we must support Italy which is the priority of the moment. But it doesn't forget it doesn't forget the imbalances. It doesn't forget the inequalities. It doesn't forget the discriminations and look here: what a fantastic rhetorical device and representation.
Luca Bifulco 29:14
Naples would support Italy because it is more loyal than Italians and more honest than Italy.
Luca Bifulco 29:21
That is in the extent of a sort of exceptionalism of Naples's claim.
Luca Bifulco 29:27
Neapolitan pride goes: this is a loyalty that is about sport, but not just about sport. Essentially, because it says Napoli will support Italy, knows all things considered, as it was said in the national press.
Luca Bifulco 29:44
They had said, there is a right side and a wrong side. All in all, essentially, adheres to this idea, so with a sense of loyalty that goes even further because it is also sporty loyalty.
Luca Bifulco 30:00
Because Naples doesn't boo Argentina when, instead, the Argentinian national anthem is a strong symbolic element of another nation.
Luca Bifulco 30:12
Basically, the anthem will not be denigrated, which has not happened in Italy. So there is a Neapolitan exceptionality. So if you see, there are two forms of pride, so to speak, the national one and the local one, which conflict from a certain point of view on the dimension of public debate, which is essentially interesting from this point of view.
Luca Bifulco 30:52
Look, this is really fascinating, and I think in the first part you explained very well why Maradona is what it is in Napoli. But the way that Maradona leaves Napoli, it's interesting, and in a way it seems to contribute to this view of Maradona as a tragic hero that doesn't take anything away from him in the way that people in Napoli seem.
Francesco Belcastro 31:17
It's not seen as, for reasons we might not be aware of it, controversial, as in Maradona essentially at a certain point it says that he's trapped in Napoli, he wants to leave, he has disagreements with the club, there is an issue related to drugs, there's law involved.
Francesco Belcastro 31:34
But this doesn't seem to really undermine in any way the view of Maradona. It almost contributes to his legend. Is that clear? Is that true?
Luca Bifulco 32:02
So Maradona is a tragic hero from a local point of view. And why? Because his biography is the so -called rise and fall biography. He's a myth in the classic sense of the term, that is. He's a character who elevates the human contradictions to a much higher level, so he allows everyone to reflect themselves in these contradictions.
Luca Bifulco 32:21
And he's a tragic hero because of for his falls and continuous redemptions. Because he doesn't have. He has so many typical elements of the tragic myth and the tragic hero.
Luca Bifulco 32:36
So much so that he has been compared to all the heroes of antiquity and modern culture from Achilles to Faust. And so, in short, because he is considered as a person with superhuman football inequalities, almost with an infinite creative aspiration with the ability to build on the football field that is his dominion.
Luca Bifulco 32:57
Always unexpected solutions to solve problems, etc. This thing becomes something that he gives us, a community good, available to the community, but be careful.
Luca Bifulco 33:14
What is the tragic element of the Maradonian story?
Luca Bifulco 33:17
In addition to the rise and fall biographies, etc., etc., the hubris, that is, in the same sense the scene of arrogance, that is, being at football deity and therefore contrasting faith in the narration.
Luca Bifulco 33:32
In the way we want to represent it, let's say, wanting to replace the divine elements and so on, because he essentially dominates the footballing nature, being superhuman makes you guilty in the classic story, and this is a scene of presumption.
Luca Bifulco 33:48
In reference to the more modern narration and in the more modern mythology, it is the idea of the demonic side of the genius. The genius will always be a demonic side, for which the guilty genius has a personal linkage in the soil, makes mistakes, and therefore biographical errors, sexual incontinence, drugs.
Luca Bifulco 34:13
Furthermore, the fact that he disdains taking care of himself and so on, in a whole series of issues, I knew, in this case, not by chance, in a somewhat provocative way. I'm talking about a tragic hero in a general global sense, because the tragic hero in the world is a little different.
Luca Bifulco 34:37
In what sense, like everywhere else in Naples too? Does this tale of tragic heroism touches the hearts, so to speak, of people? Because yes, because it has an almost universal global element. In Naples, his biographical errors, the errors of his life, are to some extent placed into brackets, treated separately, that is, the level of identification within a political sporting hero has led to such a thin, high level of collective self -esteem and collective pride that there is,
Luca Bifulco 35:08
you forgive me, for the oxymoron, a collective conscience urged to forget his mistakes. That is, everyone knows that Maradona is not the same who have, had made great mistakes and no one knows.
Luca Bifulco 35:24
I am talking about the people, the fans that I interviewed and that no one says that they were not shortcomings, that they were not faults, that were elements of approval of a person. They are put in brackets because what we take on an identity level is that the great level of self -esteem that he has generated and consented to.
Luca Bifulco 35:48
Look, this is a social cultural identity process that goes not only applied to Maradona, but it applies to most of the myths and political heroes, religious heroes in short. So you take as a community the one who is most inclined to your processes of identification and well -being linked to belonging.
Luca Bifulco 36:10
It is not something that is only for Neapolitans and it's only for Maradona.
Francesco Belcastro 36:28
Luca, this is absolutely fascinating and we really want to thank you for this. We, I mean, as a Southern Italian myself, I've learned, I've learned a lot. And obviously I was, I was just a few years old when, when the 1990...
Luca Bifulco 36:40
I'm proud of myself!
Francesco Belcastro 36:41
And I think... yeah, sorry Guy, go ahead.
Guy Burton 36:46
No, no, no, go on, go on, go on, go on.
Francesco Belcastro 36:47
No, just go.
Guy Burton 36:47
I was just saying, no, thank you. Again, I also want to thank you, Luca, for taking the time out to talk about all of this. I think it's on a lot of things that I think a lot of listeners probably hadn't really thought about before when it comes to Maradona, and particularly in relation to Napoli, so I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about that.
Francesco Belcastro 37:06
Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Okay, now I've got the big responsibility of closing our first double -header. First of all, I want to thank Luca for his time and Mariano, of course, listeners for staying with us for two episodes, which is great.
Francesco Belcastro 37:23
We managed to do all of that without reminding you that he made you cry once as an English fan and twice as a Brazilian fan, guys. We won't mention it. We won't mention it now. He made all of us cry, me as an Italian fan as well, so for good or bad reasons.
Francesco Belcastro 37:40
So, yeah, it's been absolutely fascinating. I want to thank Luca and Mariano before him for these very, very rich episodes, and I hope listeners enjoy them as much as we did.
Guy Burton 37:52
So now moving ahead, moving on, we need to just tell listeners as well that if you, look, we also get some, we chose to do this this episode, we've been talking about it for a number of months, but one of the things that we do find and we really appreciate is when listeners reach out to us and suggest topics that we might explore as well as guests that we might reach out to as well.
Guy Burton 38:14
So that's been fantastic and can we encourage listeners to do more of that and where can they find us, Francesco? Where can they? They can find us, they can find us, they can find us.
Francesco Belcastro 38:21
We are literally on every social media. We are on Twitter X. We are on Instagram. We are on Facebook. We are on Blue Sky. You are very active on LinkedIn as well. I've been trying to convince you to get on TikTok, but there's no chance that doesn't look like that's happening.
Francesco Belcastro 38:40
But I think the ones that I mentioned should be enough to find out and to give us some ideas and some feedback. And the other thing is that we need listeners to like us, rate us, promote us, whatever is the platform that they're using, if it's Spotify, if it's Apple, they can follow us, rate us, and share the podcast with their friends and colleagues, whether they do like Maradona or not.
Francesco Belcastro 39:03
I think these episodes would be of interest. And we always change topics, right? We've got a variety of topics. So if this week double -header was in your cup of tea, because you had a bitter football fan whose team has lost against Maradona at some point, like many of us could be, like me as an Italian fan, Guy as an England -Brazil fan, we all have our grudges.
Guy Burton 39:27
Listen, it was fantastic talking to you and Luca and Mariano about Maradona and we'll speak again next week. Take care.
Francesco Belcastro 39:36
Monday, next Monday morning, don't forget listeners.
Guy Burton 39:39
Yeah as if as if two double as if a double header on Monday wasn't enough to tell the listeners but yeah next Monday...
Francesco Belcastro 39:46
Only one episode of Monday, right Guy?
Guy Burton 39:48
Absolutely. We haven't got that.... Can't do another one! Alright. Hard to do another one. Alright. Not now anyway.
Francesco Belcastro 39:53
Thank you.
Guy Burton 39:54
Bye.
Francesco Belcastro 39:55
Bye bye.