Football and the British Election ft. Co-Host Christina Philippou and Fair Game's Mike Baker

What does the general election in the UK mean for football? In this episode, one of the FootPol Podcast's favourite guests, Dr Christina Philippou returns to co-host a discussion on the subject with Mike Baker, director of advocacy at Fair Game. Christina and Mike explain the importance of the election for the future of football in the UK, from the Premier League to grassroots and women's football. The election effectively paused plans for an independent regulator that looked close to being implemented, but Mike explains why the issue will remain on the table and what additional work will need to be done before the regulator becomes a reality.

Transcript

Football and the British Election ft. Co-Host Christina Philippou and Fair Game’s Mike Baker

Guy Burton 00:09

Hello and welcome to a new edition of FootPol Podcast, where football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co -host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:18

I think you want to say you are joined by your two co-hosts this week, right? 

Guy Burton 00:23

Thank you Francesco for sort of...

Francesco Belcastro 00:25

You're welcome...

Guy Burton 00:26

...for leading me into this but yeah normally it's Francesco and I but today is quite a special occasion isn't it because we are joined by our guest co -host Christina Filippo of the University of Portsmouth who has also been a former guest and commentator on our show. 

Guy Burton 00:45

Christina hello how are you? 

Christina Philippou 00:46

Hello! 

Guy Burton 00:47

And how how things going? 

Christina Philippou 00:49

Yeah, great. Thanks, God. Thanks for having me. 

Guy Burton 00:52

No problem. I think I should probably, you know, sort of just let the listeners know that obviously, this has been recorded a few days earlier to when you've actually, when you're actually hearing this, but I have both Francesco and Christina looking a little bit worn out because of course, they've just finished doing marking and are overwhelmed with all that admin stuff from from university. 

Guy Burton 01:12

So students, be nice to your teachers at this point in this time of the year! Okay? 

Francesco Belcastro 01:19

As if we have any listeners under the age of 35, Guy! 

Guy Burton 01:23

We live, we hope. Well, you keep going on at me about getting a TikTok account. Maybe that will be the way for us to get there. So, Christina's joining us. Francesco's with us. And today, it's quite a topical thing. 

Guy Burton 01:36

We don't normally do this. We usually do podcasts that, you know, kind of can go out at any time because they're sort of very broad general issues that relate to football and politics. But this is particularly timely because this week, of course, is the general election in the UK happening on Thursday, so in a few days' time, on the 4th of July. 

Guy Burton 01:56

And so, to do that, Christina has very kindly offered and decided to do a podcast episode looking at what is in store around football and politics in the UK. So, Christina, sorry. I feel I've spoken too much. 

Guy Burton 02:12

Over to you. 

Christina Philippou 02:13

Thanks, Guy. And obviously, this is, you know, not not my area of expertise on the political side, I'm more a kind of finance and governance person. So I've we've got a special guest with us today, former director of advocacy at Fair Game, where he will be sort of political work, particularly developing support in parliament, government and councils to affect change for better football governance. 

Christina Philippou 02:39

And he's also been a CEO and charity sector for many years. So loads of kind of social side as well, and has been an advocate. I can't even speak today. See, this is what happens. Advocacy specialist prior to that. 

Christina Philippou 02:57

So without further ado, I will introduce us to our guest today, Mike Baker. Hi, Mike. Welcome. 

Mike Baker 03:06

Hi, Christina. How are you?

Christina Philippou 03:07

 Thanks. Thanks for joining us, Mike. To be honest, you know, we're here to learn from you. 

Christina Philippou 03:14

So I guess kind of where to start about the political landscape around football at the moment. Where do you think what's the temperature there? 

Mike Baker 03:25

The temperature is well it was reaching boiling point wasn't it before the election because we thought we had legislation pretty much in the bag we'd actually got to the committee stage. We were close to the stage where it would even have been involved in what we call the washer, which is when you rush a few things through at the end in very quick style. 

Mike Baker 03:52

And they were thinking of that because it has such widespread cross party support. And by that I'm talking obviously about the football governance bill. So, basically, I'm assuming that a lot of your listeners will already know but if I summarize, we have had for many years, a real outcry about the impact of the way the Premier League's funding situation, exacerbated by the parachute payments system has been putting pressure on clubs throughout the football league so what you've essentially got is an inflationary pressure. 

Mike Baker 04:41

That has put up player salaries and other costs, and has meant that club after club has either had to stop completing or to risk going bankrupt. And as we've seen, I mean we can we can name them club one club after another Derby, Reading, Scunthorpe,  

Mike Baker 05:06

you know, Bury, Macclesfield... Apologies to any disappearing clubs that I've failed to mention in the list. The list is simply too long. And as we know there was a, the European Super League then burst it onto the political agenda, not least with Boris's [Johnson] statement that he would make sure that that just didn't happen. 

Mike Baker 05:30

So as part of that, the, they started the family review that led to various recommendations, particularly a football, an independent football regulator that then led, eventually, to a white paper. And that led eventually to a mention in the King's Speech. 

Mike Baker 05:54

And that was eked out even further to the beginning of this year, when we started seeing actual legislation in parliament, and that would have brought in a football regulator that would have had powers to ensure the sustainability of the game. 

Mike Baker 06:15

Now I won't go into all details just yet, Christina will know those more than I anyway. But it's about, because there were some significant flaws with it that we can go into. But generally, there's some, it was, you know, something we've been waiting for for all at this time, that was dragged out to last minute, and then it had its feet cut away from it by the election, and we lost it. 

Mike Baker 06:41

So that's the situation we're in now. Everybody sees a need. I will say everybody except the Premier League sees a need. The parliament had cross party support from all sides, and quite strong support, not from some quite surprising areas. 

Mike Baker 07:02

And all of the parties are mentioning it in their manifestos. But it's where it goes from there. 

Christina Philippou 07:12

Yeah, thanks. For I'm not quite sure whether all our listeners understand kind of the whole elementary process. It's quite a long winded processes. And I have also kind of discovered I wasn't I wasn't aware of how long winded a process it can be to get from what we want to where we want to end up through the whole political system. 

Christina Philippou 07:37

And I know it's been a long time coming. We've had it kind of come up, you know, 30 years ago, and even before that, and this was the first time where momentum has seems to have taken football governance all the way into a bill. 

Christina Philippou 07:54

And how do you think kind of going forward, and you mentioned the party manifestos, but even before that, how does how does it work in terms of kind of cross party support, and the bill kind of being reenacted? 

Christina Philippou 08:13

So presumably, election means that that's gone, it's not going to be law unless it's reintroduced. How does that kind of process work? 

Mike Baker 08:24

Right, yeah, so the basically the process has to start again, or most of the process has to start again, the legislation side. So with any legislation, what there would normally be is a consultation period, then a white paper, and then a further consultation on white paper, and all of that was what strung it out before. 

Mike Baker 08:48

Now the good news is, we don't have to go through that again, that's been done. What we'll have to go through is the parliamentary process of legislation, and that will be about being introduced into the House of Commons, it'll be first reading, second reading, report stage, which is where the full parliament gets to look at it, but before that a committee stage, and the committee stage is where everybody digs over all the detail, 

Mike Baker 09:20

and really tests it out. So it has just about 17 MPs, I think we're on it, and they will look at it. Now that had been started last time, we'll have to go through all of that again, but the good news is I think twofold. 

Mike Baker 09:36

Firstly, the really long stages are already done, so the things that delay the consultation, publishing white papers and so on, that's done, and the thing that, and although we have to go through the parliamentary process again, that can be done quite quickly, and there's already already a ready -made bill that has large support. 

Mike Baker 10:03

Now it's not perfect, and we will be wanting to see that strengthened, but it could move quickly if the government wanted it to. 

Guy Burton 10:13

Yeah, can I come in here a second, Mike, and ask? Because if you could tell us a little bit about, you know, sort of the content of the bill as it was before it, you know, before the election was called, because I think there was some discussion as to whether the, you know, you could have a stronger regulator versus a more sort of, you know, hands -off one. 

Guy Burton 10:32

I mean, where did we end up with, you know, with the previous legislation and what will be happening, you know, post -election? Is there scope to try and sort of tighten and make it stronger? 

Mike Baker 10:44

There definitely is scope to make it tighter and stronger. And in some ways, if that opportunity is taken, then the legislation falling will have been a good thing. If the new government were to come in, bring it in quickly, and address these problems, then we could actually have, even by the end of the year if we wanted to, if the government wanted to, legislation in place that will be stronger than that that was proposed before. 

Mike Baker 11:11

If I take a couple of the key areas that we're looking at, the most obvious one was the exclusion of parachute payments from the independent regulator's remit. So if you look at what the regulator was meant to be doing, ensuring financial sustainability, the current wording in the legislation that was before Parliament before actually said that they are not allowed to look at the particular thing, 

Mike Baker 11:45

In this case, parachute payments, that was causing most of it. So that was a really significant flaw and one that we were hoping Parliament would get to amend. So again, that could be looked at easily. 

Mike Baker 11:58

We've had noises, particularly from the Labour Party and from the Liberal Democrats, that they would address that. But there are other areas, too, about making sure that people with vested interests aren't put into key positions within the regulator and that sort of thing. 

Mike Baker 12:19

I mean, Christina, again, you will know as well as I do some of the financial sides that needed tightening up within the legislation. There is now the opportunity for the government to bring it back with all of those things addressed. 

Mike Baker 12:36

And other issues included things like moving football grounds. It wasn't clear enough on whether it would be able to stop the practice, for instance, of owners selling the ground back to another one of their companies and looking at moving the ground out of the local area and whether the fans' views would be the primary concern, not just the financial interests of the owners. 

Mike Baker 13:10

So there were a range of things like that which can now be introduced back into the bill if the government wants it to. 

Christina Philippou 13:20

So given practical questions, so given the white paper is kind of forms the basis of the bill, right, and they introduce the bill, can they introduce it as is or can they bring in those as amendments or can they change how they what the bill looks like when it's introduced before it's debated in the various guises throughout Parliament, how does the practical side of that work? 

Mike Baker 13:47

Well, in practice, it will be a new bill of their own devising in sort of technically, it will be a new bill, sorry, of their own devising in practice, they will almost certainly use almost all of what's there because of support for about 90% of it. 

Mike Baker 14:06

And it's they can, but they can reintroduce the bill as they want it. So they, so they could put in, for example, that parachute payments should be included within the regulators remit. And that would then become part of the bill and it would then be on the opponents of that to amend it out of the bill. 

Christina Philippou 14:29

Right, that makes sense, yep. 

Mike Baker 14:31

That's that's where that's where it would go from so they will they will use that they're not compelled to make to bring forward the identical bill, but they'd be daft to throw it all out. 

Christina Philippou 14:44

Can I ask enough. Mike? You know, the, there's a large number of people that and organizations that have basically come in and said, Oh, this is missing from the bill that's missing from the bill, you know, equality and diversity and inclusion seems to be kind of not not part of parcel even though it was in the fan led review. 

Christina Philippou 15:06

There's some organizations that have been saying well women's football owners are the same why isn't that part of the bill. And there's all sorts of kind of suggestions for additions to the bill. How big is too big a bill?

Mike Baker 15:25

What would be too big a bill would be one that started losing the cross party support is the long and the short of it because if he starts becoming a, forgive me for this, a political football, then you'll end up with, you know, the everything's slowing down. 

Mike Baker 15:42

It would might even risk people trying to block the legislation. Now, if we get a majority of the size of which some of the polls are suggesting, then frankly, it would only be one party that would really have any say in the matter. 

Mike Baker 15:57

But I think it's important that the legislation is also legally workable. And that's one of the things is that if the remit is too broad, it starts straying into areas that perhaps were not considered and where the legislation hasn't been thought through properly and it might leave the regulator with too much of a task. 

Mike Baker 16:25

But I hasten to add, EDI [equality, diversity, inclusion] environment, certainly on the parachute payments and all those sort of side, I think, absolutely, and should be in there. In fact, in some cases, it's going to make it really difficult for the regulator to do the job without them. 

Mike Baker 16:43

I think there are perhaps the one issue around the women's game is that they were doing a separate review of the women's game. And I think the logic from the government was that let's hear from that review before we do anything that anticipates that in this legislation. 

Christina Philippou 17:09

The review has been completed, so I suspect, you know, maybe the changes in timings would have affected that. I don't know, it would be really interesting to see. 

Mike Baker 17:25

I agree and I think it would make no sense to set up two separate regulators and if you've got a regulator that's already looking at things, if it's not covering the women's game or is more likely not covering the particular circumstances of the women's game which has separate challenges, then I think you would find an opportunity missed that would damage the women's game or potentially damage the women's game later on. 

Mike Baker 18:05

Just give a couple of examples, Jim Ratcliffe at the moment just coming out publicly and saying that United has been too busy with what he called the first team, meaning a men's team, to even think about the women's team at the moment and the women's game which shows a level of priority at some clubs. 

Mike Baker 18:28

But you also have a very different feel at different levels of the game, particularly in the women's game. So for example, I'm currently sat trying to imagine the bowels of Blundell Park where Grimsby Town play. 

Mike Baker 18:43

I'm currently sat in an office there. Our women's team is a league in, sorry, tier six, has no paid players, has no paid coaches and staff and is in a completely different position to the men's team which gets six and a half, seven thousand in every other week and is an absolutely cavernous difference between that and saying Manchester United. 

Mike Baker 19:20

So we've just taken here Polly Brancroft as our CEO at the club. But she is from the women's, she was head of women's team, women's football, that man United. You know, they play at Old Trafford a number of times a season. 

Mike Baker 19:40

They've got big international stars who have, you know, BBC podcasts and things like that. The interests of the two are vastly different and if we want to grow the game at the women's level, as we do, and at a club like Grimsby, we're going to need something quite significant to get us noticed. 

Mike Baker 20:08

When you've got the big club's own owners aren't even taking an interest in the women's team, their own women's team, then very unlikely to take into consideration the structure of the women's football and the do include women's football in it. 

Mike Baker 20:33

But that probably will be the one area that needs more thinking because the circumstances are very different from the men's game. 

Christina Philippou 20:42

Yeah, I think there's a whole podcast all in itself there, so write it down, Guy and Francesco. Sorry, Francesco, if you want to ask a question? 

Francesco Belcastro 20:49

So it definitely is a great suggestion. Can I ask both of you actually one thing on the kind of broader implications? And we focus obviously on the elections in the UK and on the kind of sort of English game. 

Francesco Belcastro 21:03

But it seems to me that in many ways the Premier League and the English game has been a precursor to what happened later on in other European countries. So is there a lesson for other countries to be learned with all the differences in terms of political system? 

Francesco Belcastro 21:24

What would be a couple of things that kind of that emerge from this trajectory that don't apply only to the UK? Is there something there to be learned? 

Mike Baker 21:35

Yes, I think that what really helps is for the football period as a whole to believe in itself and come together. So we did that in the UK here with Fair Game, which represents 35 clubs and has most of them in the lower divisions and has been a force for understanding the community, the importance of the community of all of these clubs and the importance of the pyramid as a whole. 

Mike Baker 22:10

And that's made a big impact on people. And at European level, we've got the European Union of European clubs, which is aiming to counterbalance the ECA, which is all the big guys, if you like, the big six in the Premier League, it's Real Madrid, Barcelona, it's that type of club. 

Mike Baker 22:34

And they have a disproportionate influence, we believe, on UEFA. And so the UEC, the little guys, if you like, are coming together to make sure their voice is heard, not to get special treatment, but just to make sure that UEFA acts in the interests of all of them. 

Mike Baker 22:54

And there will be things in Europe that have an impact on us. So there's the European Commission, depending on what it says about club ownership and so on, for example, and whether clubs with multiple ownerships should be allowed in the same European competition. 

Mike Baker 23:15

So there were various competition laws that could impact the Champions League, which would then directly impact the top of the Premier League, because they would have to then fall in line with it to apply, to be able to join that league. 

Mike Baker 23:32

The other thing I think, though, that is worth noting is some of the differences. And so, for example, like Christina knows, I get Grimsby Town into every discussion that I engage in. But if you look at Town, we're a very good example, we've got six and a half, 7000 crowds. 

Mike Baker 23:57

Now we had a cruddy season on being as polite as I can, we nearly got relegated and kicked out of the league. And despite that, we had crowds that were bigger than some of the top teams in some of the smaller countries across Europe. 

Mike Baker 24:11

If you look at the UEC, for example, we'd be one of the biggest clubs in it. And yet we're just as tiny, in British terms, this tiny little club. So the depth of the English game is way bigger than it is in almost any other country. 

Mike Baker 24:30

And I think that that has been a huge factor in propelling this legislation. 

Guy Burton 24:35

Can I also jump in here, Mike, and ask, because obviously you've been talking, I mean, obviously much of the focus right now, at least on the British political spectrum, is that of the regulator. But is there anything you can tell us about, you know, sort of other issues that are sort of coming down the track that are going to be politically important? 

Guy Burton 24:56

You've already alluded to club ownership, you know, particularly at the European level as one, but are there other areas, other issues that you're looking out for that are going to become more and more politically salient and you're having those conversations or you will be starting to have those conversations with political actors? 

Mike Baker 25:16

Yes, there are a number there are a number and I think the reason that we have to include the political actors is because I don't think we'll get listened to by the Decision makers, which is which is largely driven by money. 

Mike Baker 25:32

Um, if you look at some of the issues coming up. We're already looking at clubs, uh expressing a desire to hold premier league matches internationally how long before it becomes Um, you know a bit like the IPL in cricket where you know, they just have a rotating show around different countries all the time. 

Mike Baker 25:51

Is that what the clubs and supporters here want? Insert your own answer but i'm pretty confident I don't um, you've also got things like Uh new moves towards the the european super league So, uh, they've learned a little bit from that first fiasco, but it's not going to stop them Trying again, um and essentially trying to ensure that They could protect their investment is the way they see it It's not making sure you de -risk it by making sure that no other no one can compete against you. Um, 

Mike Baker 26:28

and they can amend I think a lot of the amendments around the champions league for example are moving in that direction Um, so there's all these and the multi -club ownership model is is a is a key one So all of those things we'll need to look at Where it gets more complicated is at most limer international issues so while we can Yeah, put the kibosh on the european super league on the practical grounds that it won't work if the premier league isn't in it So the the you know, 

Mike Baker 26:57

the uk government does have the authority layer to act but on most of these others. Um, that's not the case um, and in that case we'd need to engage with the European union as well and we'd need to work with like -minded Clubs right across europe. 

Mike Baker 27:15

Um, and that's something that's already happening 

Christina Philippou 27:19

Really interesting Mike and really interesting to kind of see the impact of the kind of regulation and how it could potentially learn from each other across jurisdictions, kind of bringing it back to the UK, just wondering a little bit about the party manifestos, you mentioned them briefly, but I think we'd be remiss not to ask you specifically what is in them and what you see in your analysis around that. 

Mike Baker 27:48

If you look at the main party manifestos, and I'm thinking Labour, Lib Dem and the Conservatives here, what you've got is a mention in all of them, and a positive mention in all of them. I think the Conservative manifesto is least, is lightest on detail, I think would be the best way to put it. 

Mike Baker 28:13

I've got to be fair to the Conservatives, it was a Conservative government that committed to the regulator, it was a Tory MP who led the fan -led review, and they had pushed it through Parliament with widespread parliamentary support. 

Mike Baker 28:28

But yeah, although it's a weaker wording perhaps than some of the others, I think the Conservatives do deserve some credit for driving forward what they've put forward, and I think particularly with Andrew, the DCMS has been excellent in that. 

Mike Baker 28:45

I think there's been a stronger element in Labour, but unspecified at the moment, so they do want to take the opportunity to strengthen it. How far that will go, we don't know. Thangam Debbonaire, who's the shadow Culture Secretary, who I would normally say you would expect to be the next Culture Secretary, but she's just about the only Labour MP who's under threat at the moment from the Greens in her constituency, 

Mike Baker 29:15

so we don't know. But she speculated about bringing in the tax on transfers as a levy to fund this whole process and fund the support of the wider football infrastructure, which had been in the original report, and she got shot down in flames within 24 hours by Keir Starmer. 

Mike Baker 29:41

So I'm not sure that there's, if you like, a solidified view within the party, but we're hopeful that it would include parachute payments coming in, which was probably our biggest bugbear. And then you've got the Libden manifesto, which is very supportive of the whole fair game manifesto, which includes things like EDI environments, obviously the parachute payments, the tighter owners and directors testing, 

Mike Baker 30:18

or the full caboodle. So they're probably, if you like, the tightest on it. There is always some speculation. People say, yeah, the further you are from power, the more ambitious your plans get. So, you know, but I think, again, that would be unkind on them. 

Mike Baker 30:37

They've been really good on this. 

Christina Philippou 30:39

Thanks, Mike. I mean, we've talked quite a bit about the regulation side of things and what the political parties have and their manifestos. If there is a change in government, what do you think the delay is going to be or how much of a delay will there be in actually bringing in this new legislation? 

Christina Philippou 30:57

Because presumably, if there's a change in government, they've got other priorities other than football governance coming into the fall. 

Mike Baker 31:05

Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest problem for the government would be whether it wanted to be seen to address the serious issues as it might see them first. So, you know, if everyone's talking about the cost of living in NHS and immigration and so on, it's not going to want this first act to be about football governance. 

Mike Baker 31:26

And it's that perception that we're trying to counter. I think the football governance has a strong argument for being put right up front. I don't mean as the government's major priority, we know that those other issues will be the priority. 

Mike Baker 31:46

But the thing about this one is it doesn't cost any money, or very little. So it's clashing with all of the restraints that the financial restraints have got. It's ready made and ready to go. If you want to pass any other legislation, you've got to go through that whole process. 

Mike Baker 32:07

You don't have to. You could get this out and do something concrete for football and for the communities around the country really quickly, in a way that most other bits of legislation simply won't be at that level. 

Mike Baker 32:23

And the final thing that I think should be borne in mind by any government is that this is something that is popular now, would make them popular if it went through, but that doesn't last forever. If in two years time a club like Grimsby, God forbid, went under, we'd all be sat here saying, that might not have happened if you'd have pulled your finger out. 

Mike Baker 32:52

And the longer it goes on, the longer this is left, because the crisis is getting worse. It's getting worse and worse and worse. And as long as that's happening, clubs are going to go bust. We're looking at Reading at the moment. 

Mike Baker 33:03

All of these clubs, if you don't act quickly, then the government will have the finger of blame pointed at it and will lose the potential popularity from it. So pure political terms, this is a nice, easy first win. 

Mike Baker 33:19

We know it's not necessarily a priority in terms of what's most important, but it's easy, quick, and can be done straight away. And I would really recommend that they do that. 

Christina Philippou 33:29

It's a really good point Mike, because I've had, you know, multiple conversations with clubs obviously going under or looking like they're about to go under and one of the big questions has always been in recent times, you know, has always been, well, you know, what's the frugal regulator bill, had it gone through, would that help? 

Christina Philippou 33:49

And it's like, well, you know, in your particular situation, yes, it would have helped because it would have been monitored, it wouldn't have got to this point. But it's almost kind of too late, because we're not there yet. 

Christina Philippou 34:01

And you're right, it's really interesting to see, you know, the longer obviously this takes, the more of those clubs that could potentially be brought into a situation where it's less precarious might not get there in time. 

Mike Baker 34:20

Yeah, that's right. I mean, at the moment, for instance, the financial transparency piece of it, you know, I think it was you that told me, I believe that there are 72 different accounting systems in place throughout the football league and the Premier League. 

Mike Baker 34:36

So maybe even just comparing one club with another is hard enough. Doing it in real time so that we know what's going on now and that they haven't done anything dodgy a year ago is just not feasible with the current system. 

Mike Baker 34:52

But with the regulator in place, it would be. And then you can pick up things. You can pick up danger signals before they get to the crisis stage. And that's that's really key for us. And that's why the governance thing needs to go through really quickly. 

Mike Baker 35:07

I think there is one other aspect of it that we should look at as well. And that's about the powers of the regulator to intervene and who they punish. Because the problem is often that by the time you get around to punishing a club, usually by point deductions or fines and things like that, the person who did it is long gone, you know, and all you're doing is punishing the fans and the community that have suffered enough under whatever idiot ran them into the ground in the first place. 

Mike Baker 35:38

So it really needs to be able to go after the individuals and or stop... intervene to stop them doing things like selling off the grounds for their own companies and so on that are dubious and get clubs into trouble. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:00

Can I, can I just say, so add one thing, which is not necessary to the, to the conversation, but as to the, with one of our co-hosts, can I, can I take the opportunity for it to do that? Am I allowed? 

Guy Burton 36:13

Go on, Francesco. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:14

So I heard that Christina is going to be the keynote at the Football Collective... Uh, is it, is it in November, Christina, is that correct? 

Christina Philippou 36:24

Shout out. Yeah, I didn't even pay him to say that. Look at this. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:27

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So can you tell us? 

Francesco Belcastro 36:30

bit about that and and if how does it work and can listeners where can they find out more information about that is in November, December is it? 

Christina Philippou 36:39

It is. It's in November. It's up in Newcastle, which is a great city. And can you tell which English football team was born? Yeah. And unsurprisingly, I will be talking about football, football regulation and finance. 

Christina Philippou 37:00

There's a surprise. But yeah, there there'll be loads of great talks. It's always a really good conference. And I'm sure we can put out links to share. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:14

So the Football Collective, it's a group of academics working on different aspects of football and a lot of them on football and politics as well. So listeners should really check it out and congratulations, it's great and we're very happy and it's an excellent choice. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:31

So well done to the Football Collective colleagues for choosing you as their keynote. 

Christina Philippou 37:37

I'm blushing, you can't see it now though! 

Francesco Belcastro 37:39

It's good, it's only audio. Yeah, well done, Christina, it's great, really. 

Mike Baker 37:47

But it's actually reminded me of one topic we haven't covered, and that is state ownership of football clubs, and whether that should be something that should be banned. So again, if you look at the legislation, that was saying you must not do anything that disagrees with foreign policy, which is a very dubious precedent to set. 

Mike Baker 38:16

A regulator now has to do what the government tells it, and what the government feels is appropriate in any given situation. We called it the Saudi Arabian Clause for no particular reason. We just picked a random country. 

Mike Baker 38:33

But if you look at this, it's actually intriguing. It's one of the few things Fair Game and the Premier League have agreed on. Because the Premier League, most of it, not quite all of it, has called for a ban on state ownership. 

Mike Baker 38:50

And we agree as well, because it brings, we're often accused of making things political if we introduce this subject. But actually, it's allowing state ownership creates a political tension within football. 

Mike Baker 39:06

It makes football political. And that's the reason for excluding it, or one of the reasons for excluding it. And, you know, all things aside, I think it's a bad idea, regardless of the records of various different states. 

Mike Baker 39:25

I mean, it does baffle me, for example, I mean, let's use Newcastle as you're going to be up there, Christina, I'm making sure you get a warm reception. But, you know, the owners and directors test, when they when they ran it past Newcastle's new owners, you know, the Saudi government, you think, well, the Saudi government have, you know, been involved in assassinating journalists, publicly beheading people for being gay, 

Mike Baker 39:57

and imprisoning women for the crime of driving. You have to think, if if that passes the owners and directors test, what on earth would you have to do to fail? You know, this, and so I think there's a real dissonance there, between effective governance, and the introduction of state regimes into the equation, it just doesn't work. 

Mike Baker 40:31

And I think that that clause in the legislation shows it. So that's, again, something we'd like to see closed off, but we don't know whether that'll happen or not. 

Francesco Belcastro 40:39

Can I ask you one thing on this, Mike, because it's very interesting, but is there an issue of drawing a line? So what are exactly state control in this case? With this state control, you'll have like clubs which are controlled by groups that are the cousin of the prime minister or something like that. 

Francesco Belcastro 40:58

So is there a way of really being effective there? 

Mike Baker 41:04

What do you mean in defining it? Yeah, I think it's fairly straightforward. In most cases, you follow the money. At the moment, the two biggest examples I believe are owned by sovereign wealth funds that are 100% state -owned and run by people who are in the government. 

Mike Baker 41:27

You just wouldn't get that elsewhere. Sure, there will be times when a prominent businessman with links to the government or something may get involved and it might start getting complicated. But that doesn't have the same level of risk as having the wealth of an nation put behind it. 

Mike Baker 41:53

So I think it could be abuse at the margins, but I think the biggest problems could be sorted out. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:02

Okay, I was thinking particularly about a West London club that was recently sold by someone who very close to uh... So I mean, it's that was the one that the case I had in mind. 

Mike Baker 42:14

Yeah, that would be more difficult, but again, the key there is to follow the money. Where did he get that money? Where was the money coming from that he was being invested in? What sort of things did he have to do to get hold of that? 

Mike Baker 42:35

And I think, again, that's another reason why human rights should come in to the football regulator, because most businesses now have to take human rights into account. You wouldn't, you know, local retailer or something was caught getting involved with people who abuse human rights, they'd be rightly taken to task. 

Mike Baker 42:57

Yet here, people seem to want to forget about that. But I think in the case of someone like a certain former West London owner, if we're going to dance around the naming of it, is, you know, the real associations with human rights abuses and concern about where the money went, sorry, where the money came from and how it was achieved is very, very relevant problem. 

Mike Baker 43:33

Now, that's not to say that there should be, you know, you have to have cast iron proof or that anyone who is, gets an accusation thrown at them and should be barred from a football club. It's about transparency. 

Mike Baker 43:49

If you can't answer the questions, you shouldn't be able to take over the club. 

Francesco Belcastro 43:55

That's great. Thank you very much, Mike. 

Christina Philippou 43:57

Thank you so much for all your input. It's been really, really, really good talking with you and it's really helpful to kind of get a bit of an idea of the political landscape around around football, particularly now kind of leading up to the elections and how that would change the football regulation bill or not, as the case may be, and any delays that would have. 

Christina Philippou 44:22

So thank you very, very much for joining us. 

Mike Baker 44:26

No, thank you. It's a pleasure. 

Francesco Belcastro 44:28

And thank you, Cristina, for organizing this episode. It's been really, really great, and we've learned a lot. There's going to be no opportunity, I hope, to have you and Mike to discuss perhaps European issues since we focused on the UK this time. 

Francesco Belcastro 44:45

And Guy, what else? What do we need to remind our listeners? 

Guy Burton 44:48

Well, I think we need to remind our listeners that we really, we always enjoy receiving feedback, um, from, from you guys as what you thought of the show, how you thought it went, um, you know, what things you think we should be talking about in the future. 

Guy Burton 45:03

Um, and also you can do that by reaching out to us and all the various social media that we have, because we have a Facebook page, we have, well, we have a Twitter account, we have Blue Sky and Francesco and I are both on LinkedIn. 

Guy Burton 45:16

And I suspect Christina might also be on LinkedIn. So if you want to contact her as well with sort of things to do related to governance, football, finance, and other things, even other topics, reach out to us, we really, we really do this. 

Guy Burton 45:30

And sometimes some of the best, uh, best episodes come from people's suggestions. Um, I think that's pretty much it, isn't it? Francesco, unless there's anything else you want to say. 

Francesco Belcastro 45:40

No, we just want to remind listeners that we got other two weeks, and then we are going on holiday for a month and a half, more or less. 

Guy Burton 45:48

A holiday for you. For me, it's a move. 

Francesco Belcastro 45:51

Well, I'm sorry. 

Guy Burton 45:52

Yeah, because by the time we come back at the start of September, I will have moved. I will no longer be in Brussels. I will be near Geneva. 

Francesco Belcastro 46:02

Okay, so if listeners want to go and find you in Switzerland, you'll be in Geneva. 

Guy Burton 46:07

Good luck, because I'll be living on the French side of the border. 

Francesco Belcastro 46:10

Okay. That's good. All right. Well, thank you very much, Christina. Thank you very much, Mike. It's been really, really, really interesting. Thanks for your time. 

Guy Burton 46:20

And thanks again absolutely this has been a wonderful you know opportunity for us to listen you know for somebody else in in in in this case Christina to you know help shape and organize this episode and i think it went really well. So thanks Christina, thanks Mike and Francescaowe'll see you again next week uh next Monday morning, right?

Francesco Belcastro 46:38

Yeah. Thank you, thank you very much. 

Mike Baker 46:40

Thank you everyone, much appreciated, it's been a lot of fun. 

Christina Philippou 46:44

Thanks, Mike.