Tales of South American football ft. Jorge Knijnik

Football plays a central role in many Latin American countries. In this episode, co-hosts Francesco and Guy talk with Jorge Knijnik, Associate Professor at Western Sydney University about his new book, Tales of  South American Football: Passion, Revolution and Glory. Jorge provides examples of how the beautiful game is entwined with the continent's politics and society. They include the actions of players like Brazil's Afonsinho and Reinaldo who promoted labour and political rights during the 1970s, Argentine and Chilean fans who are continuing the fight against the dictatorships of the past by demanding restorative justice, and the players and NGOs who challenge partriarchal prejudice against women's football in Bolivia and elsewhere. Jorge also shares his thoughts on the current Copa America taking place in the United States and the impact it might have on American politics.

Transcript

Tales of South American Football ft. Jorge Knijnik

Guy Burton 00:14

Welcome to the latest edition of the FootPol Podcast where football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co -hosts, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how you doing today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:23

I'm fine, Guy. I'm a bit sad because these are our last couple of episodes before the holidays, so I'm feeling a bit emotional I have to say. 

Guy Burton 00:32

We'll be back in a couple of months' time anyway. 

Francesco Belcastro 00:35

When are we back? Tell our listeners. 

Guy Burton 00:37

Beginning of September. We haven't identified a specific date because i have absolutely no idea when the first Monday is in September but we'll be back around then.

Francesco Belcastro 00:46

When they're back from their holidays, we'll be back ourselves.

Guy Burton 00:47

Yes. Exactly. 

Francesco Belcastro 00:49

Great. 

Guy Burton 00:50

But before that, obviously we've got a really good episode today, don't we? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:54

We have, we go one that is definitely of particular interest to yourself, but I think to listeners as well. 

Guy Burton 01:02

Yep exactly we're going to be talking about Latin American football today and to join us we've been we've we're joined by a Jorge Knijnik. Jorge, welcome to the show how you doing? 

Jorge Knijnik 01:12

I'm good, thanks. I am a bit jealous that everyone is in summer there and are having holidays, but a part of that, I'm well. Yeah, thank you very much for having me in this super interesting podcast. 

Jorge Knijnik 01:24

Thank you. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:25

Don't be jealous, it's British summer!

Guy Burton 01:31

But also, I think we should probably just put the listeners in the picture as well because when Jorge is grumbling about the weather as well, we also should point out that Jorge is actually based out in Australia, which is winter time at the moment. 

Guy Burton 01:42

So, Jorge is a Brazil -born Associate Professor at the School of Education in the Western Sydney University, and his research interests are extensive. They include youth well -being, gender equality, sports participation, and educational processes and outcomes. 

Guy Burton 01:56

He's also published extensively on football fandom cultures around the world and women's football in South America. And his book, Tales of South American Football, Passion, Revolution, and Glory, was published by Fair Play in Australia back in May 2024, so it's been out for about a month. 

Guy Burton 02:13

The same publishing house, which also published his earlier book, The World Cup Chronicles, 31 Days That Rocks Brazil in 2018. George is also a wannabe football coach, coaching youth teams in amateur leagues in Australia, and George, you also have a team as well. 

Guy Burton 02:27

Would you like to tell us a little bit about who they are and how they're doing? 

Jorge Knijnik 02:32

Now I do have my main team is Sao Paulo football club in Brazil. I think Sao Paulo Sao Paulo has kind of reborn, mostly because of his supporters. Yes, Sao Paulo was not done well in the past. Sao Paulo had like a golden era in the first decade of the century, winning everything in Brazil. 

Jorge Knijnik 03:03

But then the World Cup arrived, they thought that the daily stadium would host one group of the World Cup, but there were several political things happening. And then the Sao Paulo stadium was out- ousted. 

Jorge Knijnik 03:28

And then Sao Paulo declined a lot. And now there is a type of resurgence, mostly because of the supporters. I think the supporters at the moment, the average in Sao Paulo Stadium is the second in Brazil, just behind Flamengo, which is a super powerhouse. 

Jorge Knijnik 03:50

Yeah, so Sao Paulo is not super good in their results, but it's doing fine. Like two months ago, got a new coach, an Argentinian guy, Zubeldía, is kind of a crazy, very interesting coach, who engages the team, the supporters of people are mostly happy with what's happening in Sao Paulo after so long. 

Guy Burton 04:16

So if I may start actually, because obviously we spent a bit of time talking about Brazil, but let's talk a little bit about your new book, which is about Latin American football and how it's bound up in politics. 

Guy Burton 04:27

I mean, I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about some of the themes that characterize the relationship between football and politics across the continent. I mean, are there some common ones that exist in Latin America or is it too hard to generalize like that? 

Jorge Knijnik 04:42

Well, while... Yeah, I think you are right, we don't like to generalize things. I think my subtitle talks a bit about this, yeah, particularly the second subtitle, Revolution. Yeah, and football has always been connected to some sort of revolutionary aspects in different countries of the continent, regardless of where it's played. 

Jorge Knijnik 05:19

It's always, and it has been always, when the masses and the fans go on the streets and they hold even during the dictatorships in the eighties or even now, yeah, they hold political demonstrations. 

Jorge Knijnik 05:39

On the one side, I mean, this is the side of the public, the fans, the active supporters. And on the other side, as much as in the rest of the world, yeah, football has been connected to authoritarian regimes, authoritarian and corrupt politicians. 

Jorge Knijnik 06:03

And so there is this mix, this contradiction, that I talk about a lot in my book, in Tales of South American Football. I talk about these, the different forces that are at play when football happens. 

Jorge Knijnik 06:22

On the one side, the neoliberal forces of what we call modern football that want to control every aspect of the game and the traditional supporter, the communities. I think it's about the communities that try to keep the game and the passion afloat. 

Jorge Knijnik 06:46

So I think authoritarian, this dispute, that's happening. I mean, this dispute is symbolic of what happened in the world, yeah? On the one side, there are authoritarian groups that want to control not only the power, but of course, most important, all the economic resources that come with power and communities that struggle to minimize the damage that the liberal policies and financial capitalism is holding over them, 

Jorge Knijnik 07:23

over us, over the communities. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:26

Now in this narration that is your book of Latino -American football, there are some characters, some football players, and their relation with politics seems to be quite central. Some of them are the obvious ones. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:39

We just had recently an episode on the politics of Diego Maradona and it features... 

Guy Burton 07:46

One episode, Francesco? I think it was more than one! 

Francesco Belcastro 07:48

Two episodes, right! A double header on the politics of Maradona, and another one that perhaps is one of the obvious suspects is Socrates, but I say we associate with politics. But there are some others you mentioned. 

Francesco Belcastro 08:01

I mean, Riquelme, for example, so what is the role of these football players and what is their relationship with politics and society? Why are they important to... 

Guy Burton 08:14

Yup, Afonsinho and Reinaldo as well. 

Jorge Knijnik 08:16

Well, I think you think that's an interesting question. And I think I like to start with Afonsinho, who may be the less known because he's never been playing for the for the national team, the Selecao, the Brazilian national team. 

Jorge Knijnik 08:34

Yeah, I would say, and if you, of course, there is a chapter in my book, chapter eight, if, if I'm... in Tales of South American Football, that discuses and details of Afonsinho's story. Yeah, saying that Afonsinho has smashed the rules. 

Jorge Knijnik 09:00

Afonsinho basically, Guy, as you are based in, in Belgium, Afonsinho was the Brazilian Bosman. Yeah, I believe that your audience may know who Bosman was. Yeah, you can put a footnote here! Yeah, but Bosman was the guy who has broken the rules that associated players with their teams even when they their contracts were expired. 

Jorge Knijnik 09:32

That's why Bosman, the Bosman case in the in the 90s. Yeah, he played for, for Liege, which I think it's a Belgian club. And his case was taken to European courts. And that's why we have this, this free transfer market them at the moment. 

Jorge Knijnik 09:58

But Afonsinho was a pioneer in the 70s back in Brazil. Afonsinho was a different type of player, because mostly, most of South America players have very short career in terms of schooling, and most of them stop the school years to go and play. 

Jorge Knijnik 10:27

But Afonsinho, like Socrates, was a medical doctor. So he had a university degree during the 70s. But he was kind of a genius playmaker. Yeah, playing for Botafogo, [which] was- still is a major team, a major Brazilian team in in Rio. 

Jorge Knijnik 10:50

But during the during the Years of Lead that we call I mean, during the toughest moments of the military dictatorship in Brazil. And he started to question a few rules of the coach. He and he was giving interviews for one or two leftist outlets. 

Jorge Knijnik 11:17

And the coaches and the managers of the club were kind of saying, well, shut up. Yeah, stop. He was the captain of the of the team. They took off the his captain seat. He went back to another club, came back to Botafogo and he was ostracized. 

Jorge Knijnik 11:37

He couldn't play and but he couldn't leave the club at the same time because there was the Lei do Passeo, what we call the license law. So even when a player's contract had finished, had expired, they had to stay in the club. 

Jorge Knijnik 11:58

They wouldn't play anywhere unless another club or someone came and paid a fee, even when the contract had had expired. So, so Zagalo actually was was the club's coach, Zagalo who became famous later on. 

Jorge Knijnik 12:20

And they're punishing Afonsinho because of his long hair, because of his beard, all these conservative military views. And Afonsinho went to the courts. And he won his cause. He could move to another club. 

Jorge Knijnik 12:39

He could gain his pass here, his license to play, even though this license law was [still] on. So I think that was his main, his main political action was to, he was the precursor for the player's liberation. 

Jorge Knijnik 13:04

Before that we, most of the leaders who say that players were were in a stage of slavery because they needed to stay in the clubs even though they had they had no contracts and they had, so without a contract they had no salaries. 

Jorge Knijnik 13:23

I mean if you imagine the, a few other players they were in the same situation as Afonsinho but they were afraid that they didn't have so much extra instruction. Even Jairizinho, if you know Jairizihno was the in the Mexico World Cup in 1970. 

Jorge Knijnik 13:44

Yeah he was known as the World Cup's earthquake. Yeah he was the one of the the the boot scorers. Yeah but he was in the same situation. In Botafogo and he couldn't, he lost his case and he couldn't.... Now yeah they there were so many threats against him that he didn't pursue his case and he had to public apologize for the club to come back. 

Jorge Knijnik 14:14

So Afonsinsho in this sense was a precursor so I think that's what his importance is. Yeah the second fellow that you people, it's in the books cover in the Tales of South American Football cover is Reinaldo. 

Jorge Knijnik 14:30

Reinaldo was a striker playing for another relevant club called Atletico Mineiro in Minas Gerais. These are big footballing state in Brazil where they have the Mineirao Stadium where Brazil lived the Mineiraco in 2014. 

Guy Burton 14:52

Yeah let's not go there! 

Jorge Knijnik 14:53

The chain against German- Germany. Anyhow Reinaldo in the late 70s, he was scoring... I mean his average goal scoring was more than one goal per match. Yeah, he was scoring every time everywhere, but his celebration he used to mimic the Black Panthers move. You know raising his right arm and the fist, and he also there was just the censorship was severe in the 70s so there was just one outlet, yeah, in the left that was still resisting and Reinaldo gave an interview to them questioning the lack of democracy, 

Jorge Knijnik 15:59

the lack of free speech, the lack of elections. So he started to receive messages to shut up, to shut up. Then there were questionings about well whether he would go or not to the World Cup in in Argentina in 1978 which is a World Cup marked by the dictatorship by the authoritarian rule then.... Lots of mischief in that World Cup. 

Jorge Knijnik 16:29

Anyhow just before just like the before boarding to the World Cup there was a tradition much like... But on those days there was a tradition that the whole national team would go to Brasilia, the the federal capital Brazil, to be hosted by the the president. You know reception to the club, to the players and coaches. And in this reception, Geisel who was the the dictator here, the the president of the country, the unelected - he was a general - spoke to to Reinaldo himself. He told Reinaldo, "Leave the politics to us." That this was witnessed by several people and leave the politics to us, which means go and play football and shut. I think the first match in the group stage was against Sweden, so the Swedish score at the beginning of the game then of course they park the bus and Brazil was facing several difficulties to find spaces and to find solutions to score. 

Jorge Knijnik 17:55

And suddenly, someone, yeah, there was a cross to the penalty box at the last minute of the game. And Reinaldo was so quick. And he scored. A beautiful game. And a beautiful goal, sorry. And if you watch, if you go and watch these goals in neutral, you'll see that it looks like he was hesitant because, of course, the oldest messages were saying everybody was thinking, well, he won't celebrate with the Black Panther gesture. 

Jorge Knijnik 18:35

Don't stop because the dictators would like it. It looks like he thought about, but the thing was just stronger than him. He put his right arm up just for two seconds. Just for two seconds, then the other players came and celebrated with him. 

Jorge Knijnik 18:56

But that was enough for him to be kind of ostracized during the competition. He didn't play much. He declared a few years later that he received an anonymous letter with threats. And people think it was the Condor Operation, which was a kind of clandestine operation, an agreement, an association between the militaries in Brazil, Uruguay, and Argentina to basically disappear with the opponents and things like that. 

Jorge Knijnik 19:44

So I think these two people are very important. As you said, of course, Maradona and Socrates, we don't need to explain too much of their politics. And well, Riquelme. Riquelme appears in the book, in Tales of South American Football, to make the other of Maradona. 

Jorge Knijnik 20:08

Yeah. Actually, this book, this book started, Guy and Francesco, because of this chapter. Yeah, that I wrote, which is azul y oro,  the gold and blue. Yeah. It's exactly what I was talking before. It's exactly this symbolic struggle between community forces and neoliberal power. 

Jorge Knijnik 20:38

So in this chapter, which I think is chapter five, I tell the story of Boca Juniors, one of the most relevant club in South America and in the world. Even the cover of Tales of South America has Boca Juniors colors, yeah, which are azul y oro, yeah, blue and gold. 

Jorge Knijnik 21:03

And I believe those nowadays, yeah, Riquelme, he's the president of Boca Juniors. Yeah. And you know who, before becoming president of Argentina, Mauricio Macri was president of Boca Juniors. 

Guy Burton 21:24

Yeah. 

Jorge Knijnik 21:25

Everybody in La Boca, which is the neighborhood where La Bambonera, yeah, the Boca Juniors stadium, will say that, well, Boca Juniors elections are more important than the presidential elections in Argentina. 

Jorge Knijnik 21:41

Yeah. So there is much power there. And Riquelme is there just to make an interesting counterpoint with Maradona, yeah, because while Maradona was openly supporting leftist causes, yeah, he met all the left leaders like Morais or Fidel Castro, yeah. 

Jorge Knijnik 22:14

Riquelme was like his playing style. He was kind of acting on the sides to move towards the power. And the book started with this research I did in both and in Boca Juniors because a few years ago, a guy who was was actually filming exactly this documentary for Sky, azul y oro. 

Jorge Knijnik 22:47

They asked me for some research background. And I think that there is no better counterpoints than these two people representing Boca Juniors. Yeah, I think one story that highlights these tensions between tradition and modernity in the community and neoliberalism in South American football is exactly the story of Boca Junior's jersey. 

Jorge Knijnik 23:24

I'm not sure if you guys know how the colors of the club were chosen. Like at the beginning of last century, there were plenty of Italian migrants and other migrants in Argentina around 1910, something like that. 

Jorge Knijnik 23:47

And they were living in the slums, in La Boca, in the area. And they got together to found a club. Yeah, so they decided the name and other things. And there was this huge argument about the colors. Nobody knew what colors to decide. 

Jorge Knijnik 24:09

So there was this Italian, and I described this in the book, this Italian migrant. So his job, yeah, he worked in the harbor. And he opened the harbor to all the ships. So they decided the next ship he saw coming into the Buenos Aires Harbor would be the colors of the club. 

Jorge Knijnik 24:39

So it was a Swedish ship. So the club became blue and gold. And during Macri's term, and that was in the beginning of this century, around 2004, 2005, when all the neoliberal policies, they were coming to, they were crushing all the traditions on all supporters. 

Jorge Knijnik 25:18

And then Nike came up as a sponsor of Boca Juniors. And they decided to introduce this anti -perspirant jersey with new technology that would allow not only players, but also supporters to jump during two hours of play. 

Jorge Knijnik 25:44

And after that, just go out to a club or whatever, because the jersey was allowing there. There is a name for this technology, dry, something, I forgot. But it doesn't show the sweat. The sweat, just the transpiration goes out. 

Jorge Knijnik 26:04

There is no smelling. But then the traditional supporters were against this technology. They wanted the old February, because they wanted to play for Boca Juniors. You need to show your garra, garra in Argentina is to... 

Jorge Knijnik 26:26

You need to show that you gave everything, your blood, your sweat, everything. And people need to see this in the shirt. How come Nike is coming up with this nonsense jersey? So I think this is very interesting in terms of showing these paradoxes and distinctions in one of the largest South American clubs. 

Jorge Knijnik 26:58

And I think that's why he comes up, because he does this counterpoint with Maradona. 

Guy Burton 27:08

Yeah, so one of the things that's continuing on from this idea of the fans and community that Jorge has been talking about until now is the broader politics of Latin America and the shift from dictatorship to democracy, which was something that began in the 1980s. 

Guy Burton 27:28

We saw the consolidation of democracy from the 1990s onwards. But one of the things that's really interesting about this transition from dictatorship to democracy is that many of the leaders at the time avoided punishment for their human rights violations. 

Guy Burton 27:43

And yet one of the interesting things we're now starting to see is that fan groups, some of the fan groups associated with clubs around the region have been at the forefront of demanding that this change, that there be a restorative justice process. 

Guy Burton 27:56

And so I was wondering if you could take us through a bit of that. I mean, who are these particular groups? Which clubs do they represent and what have they achieved so far? 

Jorge Knijnik 28:03

As I was saying, the football in Latin America, and I think this topic come across, the use of South American football very clear, is community force. So people get together many times and not only, I mean, the main reason of course, is to cheer on their teams. 

Jorge Knijnik 28:33

But in particular, in countries where the dictatorships were ferocious like Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, yeah. There were some what we call transitional justice processes, you call restorative justice processes, where people who are involved with killing, with kidnapping, of oppositions and torture, they have been prosecuted. 

Jorge Knijnik 29:10

There is a beautiful movie, 1985, which it is called, details this process in Argentina. But still, there are plenty of torturers and killers or people who were associated to dictatorship, who had been involved in football in different roles. 

Jorge Knijnik 29:40

Like going out with- going to- as chief of delegations of national teams and things like that. So what the supporters, for example, supporters from one of the big clubs in Uruguay, which is Penarol, Club Atletico Penarol, what they've been doing, yes, it's a movement, what they call, Hinchas con Memoria: Fans with Memory, yeah. 

Jorge Knijnik 30:16

Their motto, not only in Uruguay, but across these three countries, is, ni olvido, ni perdon, which means we will not forget and will not give you mercy. They want these guys to be prosecuted, or at least they want these guys who are involved with dictatorship and are still members of the club to be expelled, to be pointed out and expelled from the club. 

Jorge Knijnik 30:46

Mostly because there was a club, a very, very small club from the second tier, that played against Penarol and they were playing with a black shirt because the day before, one of the most dangerous killers and torturers of the dictatorship had passed away without saying where they bought the bodies of people he killed were hidden. 

Jorge Knijnik 31:24

So that's tragic because there are still families in the past for years waiting for justice, waiting to see where the remains of their love, of their relatives, parents or sons and daughters are, and these guys know. 

Jorge Knijnik 31:46

So the moment where these supporters, they gather to protest or even to pay tribute, to pay, sorry, to pay tribute to people who have disappeared, people who are connected to the club as supporters, as members, yeah, have disappeared. 

Jorge Knijnik 32:08

Even in Chile, in Chile, Pinochet, was one of the bloodiest. dictators. He made himself president of Colo Colo. Colo Colo is the main- the main football club in Chile. Yeah, so he made himself of course to he was pushing himself to be the president. 

Jorge Knijnik 32:35

So fans realized to just strip all these these people memberships and to strip them from the from the club's history, which is of course controversial. I think the history should be there and then explain it better than the censor. 

Jorge Knijnik 32:56

But that's what that's what they do it. But most of all, I think it's a it's a positive community thing to be done in terms of fulfilling restorative justice, symbolic and effective in the judicial system. 

Francesco Belcastro 33:16

It's great. I mean, I was wondering whether we could talk a bit about the women's game. Now, listeners have watched the World Cup, some of the most exciting female players in the world, some of the most talented are from Latin America, not only from Brazil, who is traditionally a big women's football country, but also from other countries, Colombia, Argentina. 

Francesco Belcastro 33:37

So the movement is growing in Latin America. Now, in your book, I think you focus specifically on the case of Bolivia. But I know it's hard to generalize a continental level. Can you perhaps tell us a bit what challenges have women in football faced? 

Francesco Belcastro 33:55

And to what extent you say that, you know, these mirrors, societal problems and societal experiences, having yourself worked on this topic. 

Jorge Knijnik 34:06

Well, I think this topic is one of the most generalizable across South America, mainly because football, it may not appear for the European audience, but football is played across all social classes, but mostly in the lower classes. 

Jorge Knijnik 34:41

That's where it starts. That's where most of these, you see all these celebrity players, Vini Jr., Maradona, Messi, these guys come from the lowest social extracts from the precariat. So that's where women players as well. 

Jorge Knijnik 35:15

But there are plenty of examples. In South America, for example, in Brazil, football was a forbidding practice. There was a law that was published after all these controversies about women's bodies, whether they could play sports, violent sports, martial arts, and of course, football. 

Jorge Knijnik 35:45

There was a law that forbid women to play in 1941. This law was actually a severe cut in women's football that was flourishing in Brazil on those days. So it was just abolished in 1979. But I would say that gender issues and gender, if you see beyond stereotypes of Latin American societies, you will still find machista societies, patriarchal societies, and most in the marginalized communities. 

Jorge Knijnik 36:38

So that's where the feminist struggle is. I think that's where there are plenty of communities trying to fight for women's rights to be part of the culture. And football is a central element of the culture. 

Jorge Knijnik 36:58

So you can find, for example, in Buenos Aires, La Nuestra Feminista, which is an NGO working with a feminist perspective of the game that claims for inclusion of boys and girls, education, and a more communal approach to football, not that much competitive, amongst several other NGOs or organizations across poor communities, marginalized communities, in slums across South America. 

Jorge Knijnik 37:36

So it's still a very patriarchal and gendered society where women still face lots of issues when trying just to play football and, of course, professionally much more. It's still very hard and lots of issues with managers and federations to get salaries and to get decent competitions for them, even though it's much better, even though FIFA is trying to push. 

Jorge Knijnik 38:14

I mean, if you want to play the football, and so I think it's still a big struggle from Mexico to Uruguay for women to play. And in the book, I mentioned the Bolivian women, the karimachus. The karimachus are similar in English to tomboys. 

Jorge Knijnik 39:02

Yeah, the karimachus or what they were called, yeah, women, of course, they were nicknamed karimachus, every single woman who wanted to play football, because women don't play football, basically, yeah, it was a very rigid gender, gender understanding of what women's body can do or not. 

Jorge Knijnik 39:28

So they struggle, and they've been, I think they've been challenging and overcoming all these stereotypes that link women football players to dirty lesbians and things like that. But it's still an important struggle that I think it's part of South American culture. 

Francesco Belcastro 39:52

I just suggest, yeah, it's just one thing for listeners, it's probably worth going and check an episode we did a couple of months ago on football and female football fans and activism with Luisa Turbino Torres that focuses largely on Brazil but looks more generally and Latin American and looks very much sorry, yeah, Latin America. It looks very much at kind of fan activism from from a gender perspective. 

Francesco Belcastro 40:19

So it complements very well what Jorge was saying. Guy, sorry. 

Guy Burton 40:23

No, I was going to add to that actually the episode we did with Pete Watson of Leeds University about Colombian football because one of the discussions we had with him was about the state of uh... of football for for Colombian women and and what what any compliments very nicely what Jorge was saying here, because you know, I remember what Pete said to us was that, yes there is- there are- there is football, but everyone- sort of particularly during the World Cup last year there was an assumption that because the women were out there playing that they would that there was a lot of backing and infrastructure behind them. But really there's not. I mean it- you know, maybe the level of european level is pretty high but we talk about the Latin American level is pretty low. And so, you know, these women are sort of almost over performing as it were, 

Guy Burton 41:05

you know, given the barriers that they face. So that's really informative and I think we definitely need to do more on this stuff as well, Francesco. 

Jorge Knijnik 41:11

I totally agree. Yeah, I think your comment about women's fans is very important. I'd highlight also the work of Soraya Barreto Januário from the Universidade Federal de Pernambuco, who does a lot, and Mariana Zanetti as well from, I think, the Universidade Federal do Espirito Santo, both from Brazil, but they do lots of activist research work with women's fans who want to be there and just cheer on their team, 

Jorge Knijnik 41:55

regardless if it's a male or female, but they want to be part of the fandom culture. And many times, it is kind of hard for them because of the patriarchal issues and the racism they face on the stand. 

Jorge Knijnik 42:15

But on the other hand, they've been associating and organizing themselves. There are plenty of female groups across the country who share experiences and ways to improve their struggle as fans as well. 

Jorge Knijnik 42:34

But I would say, and I think you are right, the issues are not, of course, still in the high level, in the professional level, but the main issues are in the recreational level and in the level at schools in terms of facilities, having access to facilities and football. 

Jorge Knijnik 43:05

In this sense, in this community sense, is an important tool for women to realize that they have to associate themselves to fight for the rights. So that's the importance, again, the political importance of football in South America that is highlighted across the use of South American football. 

Francesco Belcastro 43:28

That's great. Can we perhaps, and I'm conscious of time and we've taken a lot of your time already, but can we perhaps ask you a question on the Copa America that it's taking place at the moment? Now, the football, it's been fantastic and I mean, everybody wants to know whether Marcelo Bielsa will manage to win the Cup or not and all of that stuff. 

Francesco Belcastro 43:48

But what about the politics of it? Is it a relevant tournament from the political point of view? It's taking place in the United States, which in itself is an interesting fact. But would you say there are some political themes to the Copa America this year in particular? 

Jorge Knijnik 44:04

I say this. That There are a few interesting topics, and of course they are different from what happened in 1978 in Argentina. But in my opinion, and considering everything that's happening, not only in the US but across the world, all these xenophobes, instances in Europe, and the far -right gaining more relevance in several countries, elections and things like that. 

Jorge Knijnik 44:48

When I look at the Copa America and watching a few matches, I always look to the stands. And there I see migrant communities, migrant communities that have been ostracized. And I just keep thinking, what should Trump followers be thinking about all these Latinos celebrating all these people from Venezuela or Ecuador or Bolivia or whatever? 

Jorge Knijnik 45:29

What they think of all these shitty migrants, what they are doing here or not. I think this is, in my opinion, the most relevant political issue in Copa America. I would love to be there and doing with a group of my doctoral students doing some research. 

Jorge Knijnik 45:54

We think these migrant communities, I think they are very important to reshape football in the United States. And I think they are just starting to shake the social order there. I think these will have some impact in the federal elections that are coming up in the US and also for the forthcoming World Cup. 

Jorge Knijnik 46:26

I think this is a very important, very relevant issue. There is also the presence, I think the presence of Vini Jr. for Brazil, not only because for Brazil, but of course because what he's been representing, it's in the same sort of political dispute in terms of anti -racist that what he's been representing and the changes that he has with his attitude, behavior and courage, what he has been representing. 

Francesco Belcastro 47:05

That's great. Thank you very much. It's definitely our two themes that we'll keep an eye on. Guy, I know you want to ask Jorge who's going to win the Copa America. 

Guy Burton 47:14

Am I allowed to? Can I ask who is... Jorge, who are you looking out for? Who do you think, even if someone, who do you think is going to win or if not win, who should we be looking out for? 

Jorge Knijnik 47:26

Well, you want to, for me to give you my bet? 

Guy Burton 47:31

Yeah. 

Jorge Knijnik 47:32

Yeah. Well, I think the culprits of always, I think Uruguay has a strong, a strong team. Argentina, Brazil and Colombia, Colombia is coming not as a surprise because Colombia has been playing really well in the qualifiers. 

Jorge Knijnik 47:58

I think it will be among these four teams, but yeah, we never know. 

Guy Burton 48:04

Mm -hmm. Yeah. 

Jorge Knijnik 48:05

Yeah, but I think yeah, Colombia, Colombia is doing great and sorry to keep pushing things to the book. But yeah, there are I think- there are two lovely chapters about about Columbia one is in the one is about Higuita that deserves some reading, because how Higuita, the Columbia goalkeeper, the crazy Colombian goalkeeper, changing the rules of football, and not only changing the rules, changing the way we play and understand football on these days because of his action. But Columbia is playing a beautiful football and as yourself, I really enjoy Marcelo Bielsa. 

Jorge Knijnik 48:52

So let's see, but I'm supporting Brazil. Yeah, I still, I still Brazilian and I know, actually, the club, the book, my former book, book talks about how the process of how many Brazilians have left, don't support the Brazilian team anymore because of politics because what the jersey the yellow jersey represents represents the far right nowadays, but for me, it's still, it's still a passion. 

Francesco Belcastro 49:27

Can we, since you mentioned the book, can you remind us the title and where listeners can find it? I'm sure after this conversation, they're going to be keen to find out a bit more. So can you remind us the title and publish it again? 

Jorge Knijnik 49:41

Tales of South American Football: Passion, Revolution, and Glory was published by Fair Play Publishing. So people can find either paperback or e -book and Fair Play Publishing website. But also in Amazon and other online shops, they can find, of course they don't live in Australia, they can find the e -book easily in Amazon and other online bookstores. 

Francesco Belcastro 50:15

And we would really encourage people to read it because it's a fantastic book. Guy, I know you've absolutely loved it. 

Guy Burton 50:20

Absolutely. And as we've discussed in today's episode as well, we covered some of the conversation we've had covered some of these, maybe for our listeners, lesser known people and lesser known subject matter of Latin American football. 

Guy Burton 50:33

So well worth the read. I recommend it. Thank you, Jorge, for taking the time to come and speak to us. We really appreciate it. 

Francesco Belcastro 50:40

Thank you very much. 

Jorge Knijnik 50:42

you for having me. Yeah, I do recommend your, your podcast for everyone that I know. Yeah, really interesting topics. So muchas gracias. Thank you. Grazie a molte, merci beaucoup! 

Guy Burton 50:56

And after that little plug, what else do we have to say, Francesco? I almost feel like Jorge has done it for us! 

Francesco Belcastro 51:02

Well, I mean, the usual things, so we need to remind listeners to follow us, like us, share whatever platform they're using that would be allowed to do different things to help us. I mean, the main thing is to rate the podcast. 

Francesco Belcastro 51:21

Listeners are being very good in terms of getting in touch and telling us what we should work on. They've not been so good in terms of rating the podcast, because we know not many have rated it, but way more are listening to it. 

Francesco Belcastro 51:35

So please do rate it, it's important for us. And then, I mean, what else? Yeah, to get in touch with us, they can find us everywhere. You are a man of the Internet, Guy, aren't you? So they can find you pretty much everywhere. 

Guy Burton 51:49

We have a Twitter account, we have a Blue Sky account, we're on Facebook, we have an Instagram account, and also you can reach us directly, either Guy Burton or Francesco Belcastro at LinkedIn. Please send messages to Francesco on LinkedIn because he really wants to use that profile. 

Francesco Belcastro 52:07

Please do, please do. And you can announce a feature in September. You're starting with TikTok, right? You're starting... 

Guy Burton 52:15

You start it and I'll follow! And as we also said at the very start of the episode as well that we will be taking a bit of a break from the middle of July so... 

Francesco Belcastro 52:27

Yeah, we got a couple of weeks to go still, so listeners can still expect couple of episodes to drop and then... 

Guy Burton 52:33

Exactly and also just to keep in mind that of course we won't be completely disappearing. I mean we have things to be doing over the summer, but amongst the things that we also plan to do is to sort of do more recordings and to get more episodes prepared and ready for you guys to come back and listen to. So as ever, please do reach out to us tell us about some of the topics you'd like us to cover some of the people you'd like us to speak to. Some of the best episodes we've actually done has been coming from you know listeners comments and suggestions. Well thank you again Francesco. Thank you again Jorge. It was great talking to both of you this week and I look forward to speaking to you again next week, Francesco.

Francesco Belcastro 53:07

Yeah , Monday morning, first thing with our coffee listeners, we'll find our episode. Yep. 

Guy Burton 53:13

Monday morning. Speak to you later and take care. Bye.

Francesco Belcastro 53:14

Bye.