When FIFA Went Global ft. Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui

FIFA, the Fédération Internationale de Football Association, is the sport institution that controls and regulates the world's most popular game. But how did it become the mega-organisation we know today? In this week's episode, co-hosts Guy and Francesco dive deep into the history of FIFA as global football's governing body with historian Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui and his book, "The Making of a Global FIFA." They explore whether the election of former president Joao Havelange in 1974 was pivotal and its lasting impact on FIFA. The discussion sheds light on Havelange's election strategies and the Brazilian elites' perceptions of themselves and football both nationally and internationally. #FIFA #FootballHistory 

Transcript

When FIFA Went Global ft. Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui

Guy Burton 00:09

Hello and welcome to a new episode of The Football Podcast, where football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co -host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:19

I'm all right, Guy. How are you? 

Guy Burton 00:21

I'm not too bad. Not too bad. Do you know what we're talking about today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:24

I'm super excited because we're talking about a topic I'm really interested in. I've researched it a bit myself, more from kind of reading a couple of academic things on it. So now I'm really looking forward to learning more and we've got an excellent guest that will guide us through this topic. 

Francesco Belcastro 00:40

So it's an exciting day for me. 

Guy Burton 00:43

We're basically talking about FIFA, the making of FIFA as a global body, and we're joined by Luis Guilherme Burlamaqui. Luis, hello, how are you doing? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 00:54

Thanks so much, guys. Thanks so much to you and Francesco for the invitation. 

Guy Burton 00:57

I don't know, our pleasure. So listen, for the listeners, I just want to give them a sense of who Louise is. So Louise is a historian who has a PhD in history from the São Paulo University and is an Assistant Professor of History on leave at the Federal Institute of Brasilia in Brazil, as well as a visiting researcher at Georgetown. 

Guy Burton 01:16

And he's also teaching at the University of California on the Washington program there. His PhD dissertation is on the political history of FIFA and was originally published in Portuguese "A Danca das Cadeiras: A Eleicao de Joao Havelange a Presidencia de FIFA," back in 2020, and in English as "The Making of a Global FIFA," which came out with the academic press de Gruyter in 2023. 

Guy Burton 01:41

And just for listeners who don't speak Portuguese. In the Portuguese translate original Portuguese titles a bit more flowery. @A Danca das Cadeiras" literally means "the dance of the chairs." So I'm curious to hear from Luiz why there's been a change in the title and what it all means. 

Guy Burton 02:00

But before we do that, Louise, we always ask guests, who's your team? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 02:05

Okay, okay. Yeah, that's good. So my team actually, I'm from Rio originally. I, so I was, I was born in a, in a neighborhood in Rio called Maracana, which is close to the stage of Maracana. So I support Flamengo, which is the biggest club in Brazil, one of the biggest clubs in the world. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 02:31

Yeah, so I've been a Flamengo fan since Romario went to Flamengo in 1995. Before that I was, I was a supporter of, because my father, he was a supporter of Fluminense. My mother, he was, she was a supporter. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 02:47

She is because my father passed away, but my mother, she's still, she's still alive. She's a supporter of Botafogo. But then they, my, my mother tried to convince me to become a Botafogo fan. And Botafogo won the Brazilian Championship in 1995. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 03:06

And Romari0 arrived in Rio in the same year to play for Flamengo. He was coming from Barcelona. And there was like a major party in Rio. And then the end of the year, Botafogo was Championship of the Brasileiro. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 03:19

And then my mother took me to the party. And then I asked, is that all? So compare like to Flamengo party, there was not much. 

Francesco Belcastro 03:31

Can i just say because listeners know that that Guy is a Flam- is half Brazilian and a Flamengo fan we've got Luiz for his excellent academic knowledge! We didn't choose him only because it all because he's a Flamengo fan! Can i just clarify this! 

Guy Burton 03:46

But I mean, to be fair, actually, I mean, well, how are you finding Flamengo's play at the moment? How are you finding the team? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 03:53

We're not so good. I mean, yeah, I don't know why, because I'm not sure. I think we have, I think of a man who has like the same problem as like big clubs in Europe, like Manchester United, Barcelona. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 04:09

It's a lot of money compared to other clubs in Brazil, but it's hard to find like a way of identity and a way of playing. And also Brazil now, it's becoming more like a competitive league because we have this process of people buying clubs, doing this like international multi owner club club partnership. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 04:39

So it's becoming more like more fair for some clubs, like who doesn't join this international network of clubs. So we've been struggling, I think also the Brazilian fixture is very, very problematic. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 04:56

We have a lot of games. I don't know if everything goes well, we have like 80 games a year. In Europe, we play like 50 at most. So Flamego is struggling with a lot of injuries. Yesterday, we played against Penarol and we didn't have like, I don't know, five forwards. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 05:19

So we were playing like with the, yeah, we're playing with not the main team. So it's been hard this year, especially because we also have the Copa America and the Brazilian championship didn't stop. So it was really hard because Flamego has, I don't know, five, six players playing the Copa America. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 05:39

So that's also was a problem. So that all of these things, just in, yeah, just very upset with all that. And I'm not falling so much because, yeah, I think it's so unfair because I have a very good team and you're supposed to play for the whole year and you can't because you have this national calendars. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 06:00

And so I'm not following as much as I used to, but still we're not so good. Yeah, yesterday was very upset. 

Francesco Belcastro 06:11

Gy, you want to go with the first question, maybe cheer Luiz up! 

Guy Burton 06:16

Yeah, let's get Luiz talking about the subject. So your book, it looks at FIFA, the World Football Federation, and I was wondering if you can start by telling us a bit about what FIFA does and why it's important as a political actor. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 06:31

It's really interesting because there are some differences between the Portuguese version and the English version. One of the differences is the first chapter, because in the first chapter in the Portuguese version, it's a discussion about what is FIFA and how FIFA is structured, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 06:47

So I analyzed some sources. It's really interesting to think about FIFA and how they are able to control the world of football and how do they become this international power and now they are able to regulate almost everything in terms of international football. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 07:11

We can see a lot of challenges today. The multi -club ownership that I was talking just about now, the super clubs become even more powerful. But for the 20th century, they were able to control almost everything in terms of of global football. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 07:27

So the first chapter I analyzed in the Portuguese book, I analyzed how FIFA and how FIFA established a set of norms that allow them to expand. So it's basically, if I remember well, it's basically these three ideas. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 07:44

So the first idea is that FIFA can accept just one country, one association per country, right? So it's really important when we talk about FIFA structure. So this idea, one nation, one association per country. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 08:03

This was an object of a lot of debate in the beginning of the century. It's really interesting to see because in a lot of cases, you have a lot of internal disputes between different associations and then finally one achieve the control of that country and then FIFA recognized that association. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 08:20

In some cases, it's pretty like open dispute. But FIFA is also an important arbiter, a regulator to set and decide the dispute between that. So this is the first thing I remember that was really important. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 08:40

The second one is the idea that inside FIFA, all associations have the same right inside FIFA, right? All nations have the same right. So this is also something that was not obvious from the beginning, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 08:55

It was also a historical process because when you look, for example, the International Olympic Committee, it's a totally different structure, right? So the associations have different powers inside the IOC. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 09:13

It's a totally different dynamic. And even inside FIFA, we have a lot of in the beginning, the 20s, there's a lot of disputes between if the associations would have the same power and the same voice. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 09:28

So ultimately they decided that, right? So this is also the second thing. And the third thing that is also really important to FIFA to establish as a global power in the modern polity is that if you are associated to FIFA, you cannot have any relationship outside FIFA. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 09:48

So, for example, like in my book, there's a lot of debates about China coming back to FIFA, right? And one of the one of the setbacks that China went, because after the 70s, the beginning of the 70s, they want to become like more part of the world football. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 10:08

They want to play games and FIFA keep not authorizing them to do so. So this is also really important because if you want to join the world football, you want to be part of the world football, you have to join FIFA. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 10:22

There's basically no alternative. So it's really interesting because as more they expand, more powerful they become, and basically they have more control of the world football. So, but today, I think, I'm not sure about you, but most of the people cannot think like, even with all the challenges, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 10:47

We cannot think of a world football without a FIFA regulating, right? But that's also not given, it's also an historical process. If you look to the 20s, to the 30s, this also was in dispute, right? There's a lot of questions, a lot of doubt. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 11:05

I mean, do world football need an institution like FIFA, right? Why, basically, right? Because above all, it's like, it's power FIFA is pretty much like a symbolical power and political power. They don't have any power of reinforcement or anything like that. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 11:26

So it's really interesting because this is really clear in the sources in the beginning of the FIFA and how concerned they were about that. And how aware also they were about their limits and how aware they also know about how they can expand. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 11:45

So this is a question that I did in my Portuguese version, I removed from the final version. This is also one of the changes, but I think it's also a good starting point so we can start talking about. 

Guy Burton 11:59

And if I can just sort of before Francesco I let you you know ask the next question. Just, just to sort of clarify for listeners who might not understand the the reference that Luiz was making to China because... What you effectively have is to China's after the Second World War right? Up from 1949 you have you know the Republic of China on Taiwan and you have the People's Republic. And you were referring to games being played by the People's Republic who are not members of FIFA, who weren't, who weren't members of the United Nations at that time back in the 50s and 60s. Taiwan would have been a member of FIFA, I believe right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 12:32

Yeah, and they ultimately... But this is just one example that from my book, we have different examples like, yeah, but this is probably one of the best examples. But for I think also in the 30s, you have a lot of non affiliated associations. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 12:52

For example, the Soviet Union, I think in the 30s, it was not affiliated to FIFA. But they started to want to play games, still in the 30s. And there was a lot of complications about that. But then ultimately, if you want to play a game, if you want to be part of that, you have to join FIFA. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 13:13

So slowly by slowly, they grow in a way that if you want to be part of international football, you have to be part of FIFA. So this is... 

Francesco Belcastro 13:23

This process you describe, or sort of the political power of FIFA is very interesting. But looking at your book, it also seems that the organization itself and changes within the organization itself reflect changes at global level. 

Francesco Belcastro 13:36

And in particular, I think the election of Joao Havelange in 1974, if I remember correctly, you indicated, or you and other scholars as well, see there's a bit of a kind of watershed moment, right? A, because kind of it's seen as whether it's true or not, as the kind of moving away from the traditional centers of power into a more global game, whether it is true or not, maybe you will tell us. 

Francesco Belcastro 14:08

But also like the start of a kind of process that leads to sort of bigger changes, you know, a kind of more proactive approach towards money, FIFA is becoming more part of the global economy. Is that true? 

Francesco Belcastro 14:26

Or does your book perhaps tell us that this is a bit of a simplistic interpretation, the one that we always, we often give? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 14:34

That's a very good question. I think it is true and it is not true because for the same time, I think, Havelange election to FIFA is part of the process that you just described, the process of making football an international game. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 14:55

But at the same time, Havelange was really able to construct, to produce a certain history of FIFA that he was at the center. And it's really interesting because even today, I'm not sure it's until today because FIFA has been for a lot of changes. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 15:15

But when I did my dissertation in 2019, 2020, you go to FIFA website and you'll probably see the photo of Havelange and say something like, it's a new era of FIFA. But that's pretty much his idea of how that moment was a crucial moment in making FIFA international. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 15:35

But actually, his election is part of this process that started even before him, right? Of FIFA becoming more global and international. But what he was also very successful in doing is tell a story that everything started with me. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 16:00

Even though that's not 100% correct, because even before him, we can see a lot of developments that FIFA was going through in terms of commercialization. So we can talk about the first sponsorship contract with FIFA, where much before he took control of FIFA, I think FIFA has a contract with Adidas and Coca -Cola before him. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 16:32

I'm not sure of Coca -Cola, but certainly Adidas before him. Also, they have this major first really big contract with television both in 1966, with the England World Cup, and also in 1970 with the Mexico World Cup. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 16:51

They get a lot of money from television. Of course, if you can compare 1966 to today, we have to put things in perspective. So in 1966, it was a lot of money. In 1970, it was a lot of money. So they didn't have this idea that FIFA was not a very profitable institution. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 17:12

I think they have an idea that FIFA was growing and making a lot of money. It's really interesting, because I quote that in my book. There's an interview I've learned just before. He took control of FIFA, I think, in 1978 for the Brazilian press, and he said something like that. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 17:34

I don't know if I had, but something like that. FIFA has a lot of money. We don't have that kind of problem. But in 1998, which is his last year of FIFA president, he said something like that. When I got FIFA in 1974, FIFA had no money. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 17:51

So it's also a process of memory construction. But of course, his election at the same time represents a lot of changes that was going on before him and continued to go after him. So this is also, I think, something really interesting. 

Guy Burton 18:08

Can we actually touch upon the, you know, the figure of Jean Havelange himself? Can you tell us a little bit about who he was and why his own personal story and role as president of the Brazilian Football Federation before he became president of FIFA matters? 

Guy Burton 18:23

Because you actually just spent, you know, quite a bit of time to it in your book. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 18:26

Yeah, this is also something that I noticed. A lot of people wrote a lot of things about FIFA, right? And a lot of things about changes going on in FIFA. But in my opinion, one of the things that was like missing picture, missing piece, I can say something like that. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 18:49

Why Havelange? Why him? Why not all the person could take control of FIFA and do the change? Suppose FIFA supposedly need, right? And why Brazil and why Havelange, right? So it's really interesting because to understand that we had to connect with the history of FIFA with the history of Brazil, too. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 19:09

So Havelange, I really become his career as a swimmer. He was, it's also really interesting because he was like a swimmer because like in many, like in a lot of countries, Brazil, football was becoming more popular. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 19:32

And we're talking about, when we're talking about Brazil, when we're talking about football becoming more popular, we're also talking about race. We're also talking about football becoming more black, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 19:44

And Havelange was from a wealthy family and he was from, he was a family from Europe, right? And it's really interesting because he used to play football as a child. And at some point, when football starts to become more black and become more popular, he kind of, not only him, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 20:09

Before Havelange, I did a football presentation about football presidents and they have a very similar path as Havelange had. So for the Brazilian football, for the Brazilian political elite, Rio São Paulo mainly, they stop 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 20:32

playing football, and they start playing the Olympic sports. So if you see that, but even though like the Brazilian football clubs are our multi, multi sports institution, they still are managed to control football, you know what I mean, they still managed to control their clubs, but they cannot but they they're not playing professional sport, they're playing amateur sport. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 20:55

So Havelange, he went to swimming, but there's other kids went to play athletics, water polo, basketball, volleyball. And, and then after that, they become they control the club, and, of course, football. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 21:16

So it's really interesting because the first generation of Brazilian elite and Brazilian presidents football, football club presidents, they play soccer. And then after that, they become football, football club president, but the generation of Havelange, which is kind of a second generation or maybe a third generation, they are not, I would say, allow to play football anymore, because they cannot mix. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 21:45

I would say something like that. They cannot play with with the black community that's becoming very good at playing football. And of course, when they become very good, you can be defeated. And it is certainly not good for the political elites to be defeated even in just symbolical aspects. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 22:04

So what they do is they do like, they drop out of the football, the end start to play in the Olympic sports, where they can still have some control. And they can, and I think they can, they kept the control of the Olympic sports until the 80s. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 22:18

And now if they don't have that kind of control that they have, that they had anymore, but until I think the 80 they still have the control of playing just against themselves, and trying to avoid, I would say, undesirable people, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 22:37

Of course, in their perspective, right. And that's why Havelange starts to swim with Fluminense, which is also important club from Rio. And then after that, he started to, to also act as a businessman in the beginning, I think he was working for a lot of things. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 23:02

And then he moved to Sao Paulo and start working bus service. So he had, he didn't have, but he was, he was associated with a bus company that was responsible to take passengers from you to Sao Paulo. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 23:21

That's what he did. And in 1957, 1958, this is the 950s, actually 1955. He was part of a group that that won the election of the Brazilian Confederation of Sports that has at the time, we just have one federation of sports that controls everything. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 23:45

That's why he was important there because he has a very important, he had a very important career in swimming in Brazil in terms of Brazil, he went to the Berlin Games 1936. And then he also after he retired as a swimmer, he started to play water polo. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 24:04

And he also went to the 1952 games playing water polo. So he was a very important athlete in terms of aquatic sports. So he was able to, to do to have some influence in in aquatic confederations. And then we just that we had just one federation, the Brazilian Sports Federation that also control football. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 24:26

He become a vice president of that confederation in 1955. But then in 1957, the president of the Brazilian Confederation of Sports resigned. And by chance, he was just, he was the second on the list. And in the next year, 1958, Brazil won the World Cup. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 24:48

And then he become a major popular figure in Brazil, because in 1962, Brazil won the World Cup again. And then we have the military coup in 1964, London Brazil lost the World Cup, 1966, which is of course not a very good thing for him, and then 1970. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 25:11

And then at that point, because it's really interesting because, so for explaining, I don't have to go back to the history of Brazil a little bit. Havelange was part of a new modern elite of Brazil in the 50s. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 25:25

He was part of a group that think himself as the new Brazil. I don't know, many of you might know, Brazil's bossa nova [inaudible] even the national team, 1958. So this was like the new Brazil, and this was what Brazil called the Golden Years, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 25:45

And he was part of that group. And he was really identified with that kind of politics, what we can call in Brazil, the Democratic Republic of 1946. And he was really part of that group. And then when you had the military coup, things start to change. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 26:07

It's really interesting because at least, I don't know what's the idea that you have, but a lot of people have the idea of, oh, so we have a military group, so it's completely new. It's not that completely new thing, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 26:21

The process sometimes are slowly. Even though Havelange was really identified with the old group that was in power, right? But still, he managed to navigate very well with the new group, the military, especially after 1966. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 26:38

And he became even, slowly by slowly, he became closer to the military regime. But also, it's really important to understand that the military regime is not like a monolith. So there's divisions, there are groups. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 26:57

And he was really close to one of those groups until 1970. That was in power in 1974 or something like that. But I think he knew that he was not the military and for the Brazilian government, even though he has a lot of prestige, even though he has very good connection, he was not one of them, you know, he was pretty much identified with the old group. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 27:30

So I think after 66, especially if Brazil lose the election, also especially after the coup, he started to think about how can I survive this new era, right? Which is not how can I navigate this, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 27:48

So he started to become close to certain groups of military, but also he started to think about what can I do? Because if I lose the World Cup again, I'll probably be in bad shape, right? So for this 1970 World Cup, I think he start to think about how to cannot lose that World Cup. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 28:13

And also I think he's very good at this. And how can I convince people that I was really important of winning the World Cup, so I can have more prestige and my political position would be more consolidated. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 28:25

So after 66, he works at, I think, almost every day, how can I have a more political stable position in Brazil? And I think he starts to think about solutions, right? To consolidate his power. One of the ideas I think he had is to have an international position. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 28:47

So it's really interesting because after 1966, we have a lot of interviews of him saying that my dream is to become president of the IOC. My dream is to become president of the IOC. And he says a lot of that in the newspapers. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 29:06

But I think he knew that IOC, he didn't have a chance for different reasons. And then I think he started to think about FIFA after 68 and 69, where I think he started to think, oh, maybe I don't have a chance for the IOC as I would like to. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 29:29

But for FIFA, I might have a chance. So he started to think about how can I have a chance at FIFA? So the first thing was to win the World Cup. And of course, not only win the World Cup, but the same thing I was saying about the history of FIFA, how he was able to convince everybody that he was at the top, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 29:51

No, I have to convince that I am the most important guy for the Brazil to win the World Cup. So he focused a lot of the Brazilian preparation, the Brazilian planning, the Brazilian stuff like that. And then he won the Brazil won the 1970 World Cup. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 30:09

He makes sure with his connections, that he was also part of the news in Brazilian journals. And also, I think, in international journals, papers. At that point, if you see, for example, France Football [newspaper], Havelange starts to become big news in France Football, because he starts to use his connections to spread his narrative of somebody that is very important to the Brazil image and to Brazil, 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 30:48

become a global power in soccer, right? Because I think most of you just watch the game and think about the players, right? But then he has to convince people that he's also important that Brazil will never won the competition without him, right? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 31:03

And I think also he believes in that. But that's also irrelevant, because I mean, doesn't matter if he believes in that or not. But even though that's pretty much his narrative, his idea that he will he's at the center of the Brazilian conqueror in 1970. 

Francesco Belcastro 31:22

But this trajectory of Havelange's life and his Brazilian career, which is something that very often a lot of people outside of Brazil don't know as much. I did not know as much about it. It's very interesting. 

Francesco Belcastro 31:34

It tells a lot of things about Brazilian society. I was wondering whether we could focus a bit on the global level again. Because he gets elected in 1974, and there is always this emphasis on the fact that, I guess based on one of the previous questions, there's always this emphasis on the fact that his election in 1974 changes in the wider world, in global politics in a way. 

Francesco Belcastro 31:58

Different regions of the world becoming more important, and him being sort of the representative of the new world of football, which obviously it's a bit of a bizarre thing because Latin America together with Europe has been sort of the oldest in terms of federations. 

Francesco Belcastro 32:16

So would you say there would be a connection between sort of changes at global level and changes in FIFA and perhaps some regions of the world becoming more important within a FIFA context? Also, it's connected to shifts at the global level? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 32:32

Yeah. I think so and I think also again has to do with the history of Brazil. But also it's really interesting because after the World War II they have so... As I said in the first part of FIFA has this system that one country could one vote per country right? But even though like the countries have the same amount of vote and power right they don't have the same I would say the same power right? Because power is not only about vote it's also about prestige. It's also about how the group perceives you right?

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 33:16

So even though the African votes and the Asian votes if they vote together they have the majority of the votes. I don't think at least in the 60s they have the prestige to appoint somebody to become a new president even though they might get the majority of the votes right? So I think that's also important because Havelange starts to become like a solution of bringing these new countries that are new FIFA members and also Latin American countries to be perceived as representative.

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 33:57

But then it's really also really complicated because Latin America especially Brazil in Latin America is a very special position. Brazilians don't feel themselves as part of Spanish Latin America right. They feel themselves as part of different world. I think Brazil... Most of the Brazilian people they don't feel themselves as part of Latin America.

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 34:24

When talking about football it's even more complicated because there was also historical rivalry between the countries so when you have the 1950 World Cup Argentina didn't play because the Brazilian Federation the Argentina Federation that they had they were not talking. They have they have a really huge fight of a match because of match I don't remember exactly why... The South -American championship? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 34:49

So there was a lot of those moments when Brazil and the other countries especially Argentina and Uruguay they they they they struggle to find themselves together right. So I think until a certain point it was really hard to see them as a group right and even after Havelange was elected it was really complicated. If you look for example at CONMEBOL[South American Confederation of Football] I don't we have just one that was a Brazilian in the 50s for a short period. So Brazil was really not in when talking about football in South America, it was not like at all the most important country. So the first thing Havelange had to deal with was to bring South American countries together. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 35:45

And after that after he managed to do that he was trying to do to establish like "brother" connections with African and Asian countries too that were for different reasons not happy with the way FIFA was being conducted politically. And then that was his effort and of course that reflects a lot of of changes in the world that were going on at the time. We can think about decolonization; Africa become- countries in Africa become independent. We can also think about this idea of of of of countries from your non -Western - I can put that something like that - become more relevant in global stage after the 60s and become even more powerful. And of course a lot of transformations in China that were going on after 71. And yeah so I think this is also part of this international process and Havelange was really able I think to understand that process and become the leader of that in FIFA. That was that was I think his great political ability. 

Guy Burton 37:13

I mean, one of the things that struck me while I was reading your book, Luiz, was, you know, how Havelange seems to manage to link both sort of the, you alluded to the idea of this new Brazil, which was happening in the 50s, you know, this idea of Brazil developing and becoming more industrial and becoming, you know, shifting from being sort of a poor country to a richer country. 

Guy Burton 37:35

And he was part of that. And he sort of tried to take that idea into FIFA and sort of says, you know, as FIFA president, I will also be a beacon of development for these new countries, these new Asian and African countries that have joined, right? 

Guy Burton 37:51

So, I mean, that, to me, was very striking in the book. And that's something I wanted to sort of just move on, build a bit on, because, you know... Can we talk about what happens after 1974? So my understanding is that, you know, the kind of FIFA that Havelange builds after 1974 pretty much remains in place even after he leaves the stage in 1998 and is succeeded by his successor, Sepp Blatter. 

Guy Burton 38:20

And then, of course, Sepp Blatter, you know, was caught up in that whole corruption scandal in 2015. You know, could you tell us a little bit more about, you know, has FIFA changed in any way, you know, since Havelange? Or are we still living with the legacy of Havelange? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 38:37

That's a very good question, actually. But I really don't know about how FIFA is doing today after 2015. But I can certainly think of as a continuity between Havelange and Blatter until at least 2015. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 38:50

We can talk until then. And this idea, I think this idea that FIFA... It's really interesting because the idea of the, what FIFA called in the 60s, the development program. It's really because they use the language of the Cold War, right? Development. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 39:13

So they created this development program in the 60s. And those programs become really big after Havelange took control of FIFA in 1974. So the first task that he had was to make money for those programs so he can manage to redistribute  money into the FIFA members. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 39:36

So I think this idea of distributing money, FIFA becoming more powerful, and also helping those countries that are low - I'm using the same language as they - so less developing in terms of football, can grow. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 39:57

I think that's pretty much what happened after 1974. And it's really interesting because we can see that even at the World Cup, right? Because, so the last World Cup we have, I think it was Morocco, right, in the semi -final. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 40:13

We now, we watch a game between almost every country. Germany, I think, played against Japan the other day and lost like it was 4-0, right? So I think that process started there, right? Because in the 70s and the 60s, if Germany would play against Japan, it would certainly be like 8 -0, 9 -0, I don't know. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 40:40

They wouldn't even play, actually, right? Because they were not interested at the time. But now, when they play, at least we have a very tight match. So I think that's also part of the process that he took that started, I think, a little bit before. 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 41:02

Havelange in 1964, 1965. But after 1974 it certainly gained another scale. We can talk about certainly a different scale. And I think it's continued to grow after Blatter. And now, I don't follow as much, but I think it's pretty much continuing. 

Francesco Belcastro 41:27

That's great, thank you very much. Before we let you go, Luiz, could you remind our listeners, if they're interested, and I'm sure they are after this conversation, where they can find your book, the title, and where it's available? 

Luiz Guilherme Burlamaqui 41:41

They can find my book I think Amazon also all of those online book shops you can certainly find them.And also at the site of the press which is De Gruyter so I think they can get from there and the title is "The Making of a GLOBALFIFA." 

Guy Burton 41:58

I have to say, you know, it is a really interesting read for anyone who's interested, not just in FIFA, but also in the politics and history of Brazil as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:07

Do we need to remind anything else to listeners? 

Guy Burton 42:09

Of course we do, Francesco! We always do! 

Francesco Belcastro 42:12

What is it we need to remind listeners? 

Guy Burton 42:14

We need to remind listeners that, you know, we like them to get in touch with us, to let us know what they thought about the episodes that we're doing, if they really enjoyed it or if they thought it was terrible or what they think we should change, whether they think we should, you know, get Francesco a different microphone, 

Guy Burton 42:33

and also maybe even come up with, you know, if they've got ideas of top- of episodes they'd like us to do, then please reach out to us. Because we have had a few of those in the past, haven't we? And they've been some of the better episodes that we've done. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:46

Yeah. And where can they find us, Guy? 

Guy Burton 42:48

They can find us on all the various social media platforms. So we are on Twitter or X, as it's now called. We have a page on Facebook. We do use Blue Sky from time to time. 

Guy Burton 43:00

We do have an Instagram account. Not really using it enough, but we should. And of course, you know, listeners can reach out to us at LinkedIn. And what other things should listeners do as well, Francesco? 

Francesco Belcastro 43:13

Also I know that you like to take a walk by Geneva Lake around seven o 'clock in the evening, so if listeners in Switzerland want to go and just give you their feedback at that time they'll find you in Geneva by the lake walking, so...

Guy Burton 43:26

It's a large lake Francesco! 

Francesco Belcastro 43:27

Yeah in the city center of course. I mean you know- we know the posher that you are... You wouldn't be going... OK. So in more seriousness: They also need to like us, rate us and share us on whatever app they are getting their podcast from. That's very important. And then the last thing is that we're gonna be back next week.

Guy Burton 43:50

Next Monday, always on Monday.

Francesco Belcastro 43:52

Yeah Monday morning. So the first thing is gonna be your beautiful voice Guy that is gonna welcome them to their new week. 

Guy Burton 44:00

Yes, and before... And maybe by then, I might have actually, you know, having listened to Luiz talking about FIFA, FIFA is my neighbour, isn't it? So I'm kind of curious maybe to pop up, pop over and check them out and maybe make a visit into their office! 

Guy Burton 44:13

So, wonderful. So anyway, thanks again, Luiz, for taking the time with us. And Francesco, we'll see you again on Monday. 

Francesco Belcastro 44:20

Take care. 

Guy Burton 44:21

Take care. Bye.