Football and Politics in Switzerland ft. Christian Koller

In this episode, co-hosts Guy and Francesco explore the fascinating history of Swiss football with Zurich University's Professor Christian Koller, a Swiss scholar and expert on the subject. Switzerland’s rich linguistic and ethnic diversity, combined with its historic commitment to neutrality, has shaped the nation's football culture in unique ways. Professor Koller delves into the roots of football in Switzerland, the influence of the workers' movement in the 1920s and 1930s, and how both older and more recent migrant communities have impacted the game. 

The conversation also highlights key rivalries in Swiss football and takes a closer look at the state of the women’s game in Switzerland, particularly as the country gears up to host the 2025 Women’s Euros. Don’t miss this deep dive into one of Europe’s most diverse and intriguing football landscapes!

Transcript

Politics and Football in Switzerland

Guy Burton 00:05

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the FootPol Podcast, where football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co -host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:18

I'm all right, Guy. How are you? 

Guy Burton 00:20

Yeah, I'm not too doing too bad. Tell me, do you know what we're talking about today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:25

We're talking about a topic that's very close to where you are at the moment, very close to your heart. 

Guy Burton 00:29

Yes, exactly. We're talking about Swiss football, or at least football and politics in Switzerland. As the listeners may know, over the summer, I actually moved from Brussels in Belgium to the French -Swiss border, so I am near Geneva now, and so I am really looking forward to this episode because now I'm sort of going to get in deep into finding out about the politics and football that takes place in Switzerland, and I have been going to a few games actually over the border in Geneva already, Francesco. You know that? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:57

Yeah, I know. I've heard that. I've heard that you are now a Servette fan, right? 

Guy Burton 01:03

I wouldn't call it a fan, but I have been going along fitting in the Tribune Nord, so yeah. 

Guy Burton 01:07

But anyway, we're joined today by Christian Koller, who's the Director of Swiss Social Archives and the titular professor of modern history at the University of Zurich. Christian, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us. 

Christian Koller 01:19

Thank you for inviting me. 

Guy Burton 01:20

No, no, our pleasure. And just to sort of give listeners a little bit of a flavor of who Christian is, so I've mentioned some of his titles, but he's also a fellow of the Royal Historical Society in London and also the vice president of the Association of Swiss Sports History, and he's the author of a number of numerous works about sport and football in both, 

Guy Burton 01:37

well, in German, French and English. And among some of the more notable English language ones are "Goal, A Cultural and Social History of Modern Football," which was published by the Catholic University of America Press in 2015, "Football Negotiating the Placement of Switzerland in Europe," which came out in the academic journal Soccer and Society in 2010. 

Guy Burton 01:55

And he's also written book chapters like "Neutrality as the Norm: Football and Politics in Switzerland during the First and Second World Wars," and "Fandoms, Society and Politics in Germany, Austria and Switzerland." 

Guy Burton 02:05

So I think we have a fantastic person to help us navigate football and politics in Switzerland. Christian, before we, you know, to start with, can we talk a little bit about the nature of the country of Switzerland as well as its relationship to football? 

Guy Burton 02:20

Maybe you could give us a quick overview of the political, the economic and social complexion of the country. And also there, as we understand it, there is this conventional history of, or conventional story of the Swiss as being the pioneers of the game. 

Guy Burton 02:32

Is this accurate or not? I know it's a lot of things to ask, but... 

Christian Koller 02:37

Well, let me start with Switzerland in general. Now you're now living at the border to Switzerland, you might have noticed it's a small country, but nevertheless, a complex country. 

Christian Koller 02:54

So we have four national... languages, German, French, Italian, and Romansh. We have this image of an Alpine country, but you've probably noticed there's also these cities, there is these centers of banking services, etc. 

Christian Koller 03:24

There's still some industry, used to be much more in the 20th century and in the late 19th century when football came to Switzerland. Politically, we consider us as sort of a special case. We are not a member of the European Union and we have a political system which is sort of unique with very much emphasis of so -called direct democracy. 

Christian Koller 04:05

So you have rotations on basically everything. This also includes, for instance, in many cases, building a new football stadium in a city. You would have a local rotation usually and usually some opposition against it. 

Christian Koller 04:30

Federalism is a very strong element of the Swiss political system. We have 23 different cantons with their own constitutions, with their own political culture, their own traditions. Most of them are monolingual, but some of them are bilingual. 

Christian Koller 04:57

even one which is trilingual. So this is quite a complex system. Also, the individual towns and cities and communities have sort of stronger rights than in other countries. So this is quite complex. And on the other hand, we have a long -standing tradition of political stability. 

Christian Koller 05:28

So today's confederation was founded in 1848. And there has never been some sort of disruption like in most other European countries. So neither civil war, the last civil war in Switzerland was in 1847. 

Christian Koller 05:52

So preceding the foundation of the modern confederation, we have no civil wars, no revolutions, no active participation in wars, no foreign occupations, neither in World War I, nor in World War II, but some sort of continuous development of course there has been change. 

Christian Koller 06:21

Also in the political system, but this everything went sort of step by step. So there's stability, but also sometimes elements of very slow progress. Probably the most important example here is that Swiss women only got political rights in 1971, so this was sort of very late. 

Christian Koller 06:57

If you have a look at other European countries, it was probably mainly after World War I or after World War II, and now it's Switzerland, never having been involved directly in this world war. There also was sort of not this immediate response of the war experience with giving the women political rights. 

Christian Koller 07:25

Economically, it's also quite complex, so the general image, long -standing image is the image of Switzerland as a peasant country. Even when this image was created in the 19th century, it was no longer true. 

Christian Koller 07:43

So already at the end of the 19th century, only 30% of Swiss people were working in the agricultural sector and this then has rapidly declined all over the 20th century and continues to decline. So industrial production relatively early on in the 19th century arrived since Switzerland also with having sort of quite an open economic policy as Switzerland has been highly integrated in the world economic market and also during the 19th one of the reasons why why football arrived relatively early in in in Switzerland. 

Christian Koller 08:48

and also things like the banking sectors and services already developed right from the middle of the 19th century and then become dominant during the 20th century and especially after these industrialization sets in from the late 1960s on. 

Christian Koller 09:11

So nowadays it's a country which is dominated by all sorts of services. Much of the industry has disappeared as elsewhere in Europe. Economically Switzerland already since the 19th century has always been relatively modern compared to other regions of Europe. 

Christian Koller 09:38

Now that leads to the question of the Swiss football pioneers. It's not necessarily the Swiss but Switzerland is sort of a hub of early football in continental Europe and this is linked to this close relationship with the UK. 

Christian Koller 10:04

So you have quite a lot of people from the UK coming to Switzerland all over the 19th century. In the second half of the 19th century we have three to five hundred thousand people per year from the UK coming as tourists to Switzerland but due to these economic links we have also merchants, engineers etc. 

Christian Koller 10:33

So people working in Swiss factories in engineering and also British students at Swiss universities. And also from the mid -19th century, we have a lot of boarding schools, especially in the Lake of Geneva area, but also in other areas in eastern Switzerland. 

Christian Koller 11:03

Schools which are closely modelled after the model of the British public schools, and as you know, the British public schools are where modern football is created, so they take over. Also, this emphasis on sports in their curricula and football and similar ballgames already appeared there from the 1850s and 1860s. 

Christian Koller 11:41

But we have also these British students, for instance, for Geneva. It is known already for the early 1870s that British students advertise in the local newspapers. We want to create a team of football and still need some more players. 

Christian Koller 12:01

So maybe Swiss students might want to join us. So already in the early 1870s, especially in the French -speaking part of Switzerland, in the Lake of Geneva region, we have quite a lot of games between the clubs from the different universities and especially from this boarding school. 

Christian Koller 12:29

So this starts very early. And therefore Switzerland then also, as I said, becomes a hub. So you have then also in other regions of Europe football pioneers which have had some links to Switzerland. This can be people from Switzerland, for instance, who founded clubs in Italy or in Spain, or even in Russia. 

Christian Koller 13:03

Or a special case is Bulgaria, where the Ministry of Education, towards the end of the 19th century, appointed after independence, appointed Swiss gymnastic teachers, who then also introduced football, which they already knew from Switzerland. 

Christian Koller 13:25

But there are also examples of people who just attended Swiss boarding schools or Swiss universities or other educational institutions. And there again, got acquainted with football and then returned to their home countries and introduced football there. 

Christian Koller 13:49

So this role as pioneers, some of these pioneers are really Swiss and others just have had contacts with Switzerland. 

Francesco Belcastro 14:01

That's really interesting and I wasn't aware of this connection with Britain from a sport point of view. I don't know if the listeners were either. So thanks very much for that. Now another thing I didn't know and I'd say even though like as an Italian we're neighbors I don't know much about Swiss sport. but there seems to be a connection, a role in Swiss sport regarding the development of a socialist sport movement, organizations and events particularly at the beginning of the 20th century. 

Francesco Belcastro 14:33

Is that true Christian and how would you say, how significant would you say this from a political point of view? and does it tell us something about the role of football in the country and its history? 

Christian Koller 14:46

Yeah there's this worker sports movement which actually already starts towards the end of the 19th century but at that point it's mainly a gymnastic movement but from the early 20th century on then it also becomes a sports movement with football teams amongst others which develops over the interwar period. That's probably why you don't know it from Italy because in Italy of course there was no longer a free labor movement in the interwar period. 

Christian Koller 15:28

But we have similar things in other countries as well and this worker sports movement is much stronger than in Switzerland for instance in Austria and also in Germany but obviously in both countries in the early 1930s it ends due to Nazi and fascist takeovers whilst in Switzerland with its political stability it continues then and this worker sports association still exists today.

Christian Koller 16:03

So what do we have in the interwar period from the early 1920s on? There's a special workers football championship and this is strictly separated from what the labor sports movements called the bourgeois football championship so these worker sports football clubs were not allowed to play against so -called bourgeois teams. And then to make things even more complex towards the end of the 1920s there's a split and from 1930 to 36 we have two workers sports championships and workers sports associations in football namely a social democratic one and the communist one.

Christian Koller 17:02

And those were also not allowed to play against each other. Or to put it correctly, the social democratic organization prohibited to play against communist teams whilst the communists with their attempt to gain more support in the Swiss working class they would have been happy to play against social democratic teams. And then there was even an additional football movement which also emerged at that time which was the corporation sports organization. 

Christian Koller 17:48

So that was the response of employers that they created their own teams in the factories and also the name of the team was then the same as the name of the factory. That was an attempt also to control their own workers and to prevent them from participating in these worker sports associations which of course were close to the trade unions. 

Christian Koller 18:23

Now this obviously tells us something about the the interwar period in Switzerland which is especially at the beginning. We have a situation where we have sort of a fragmentation of society as a result of the previous decades and also as a result of some events towards the end of the First World War when in November 1918 the first and only ever national general strike took place. 

Christian Koller 19:05

So actually at the very same days when there were the revolutions in Germany and the split off of the Habsburg monarchy and the revolutions in Austria and other countries we have this national general strike which sort of splits society or enlarges the split of society between the working class and the middle and upper class. 

Christian Koller 19:39

And that also as a consequence you have done in the interwar period sort of separate organizations for basically everything. Working class organizations and then sort of bourgeois organizations but then also in sport also separate Catholic organizations so you have sort of a fragmentation. 

Christian Koller 20:09

Again this is similar as in other German -speaking countries you have sort of the same in Austria and in Germany where the situation was even more serious because there you have also these paramilitary organizations of these different social and political groups which only existed on a far lower level in Switzerland. 

Christian Koller 20:38

Now from a... 

Francesco Belcastro 20:38

Can I ask you a quick follow -up question? Now I assume that at this stage football was one of the most popular sports in the country because I know like as someone who follows a bit other sports as well we often think of Switzerland as very successful in individual sports. 

Francesco Belcastro 20:58

Would you say that this trend also meant perhaps football was opposed to other sports and does it tell us something socially the fact in a group sport as opposed to individual ones became more popular? Is there anything there you'd say? 

Christian Koller 21:16

It's not so much football against other individual sports it's more this traditional split that you also have in in Germany football and other British sports against gymnastics. 

Christian Koller 21:37

Gymnastics had come to Switzerland in the early 19th century from Germany and since the mid 19th century has had a very strong connection to the army and via the army it also entered the educational system. 

Christian Koller 22:01

So gymnastics was the only topic the Swiss educational system is extremely federalistic so the individual candidates can more or less do what they want and gymnastics is the only topic which in the 1870s already from the confederation was made compulsory for all schools in the whole of Switzerland because it was considered relevant for the strength of the army whilst theoretically an individual can't and could have said well we don't have mass exists in our curriculums, and obviously nobody did that. But theoretically, they would have had the right to say that. That's not important. We cancel that as the subject was. So gymnastics is very closely linked to the state. 

Christian Koller 22:59

And within this gymnastic movement, we have some also gymnastics teachers who are already in the late 19th century quite open towards British sports and also introduce football, whilst others. And these are discussions that go on well into the 20s and 30s are absolutely opposed against football. 

Christian Koller 23:26

And there was also an attempt, which was sort of semi -successful on the level of the grammar schools, especially to introduce another game which was handball. Handball was closely linked to the gymnastics associations and was meant to become sort of another ball game to compete against football and in many grammar schools some of them some of which already had had football in the late 19th century then in the interwar period they don't have, they don't have football any longer but just handball.

Christian Koller 24:15

So that's sort of this this opposition and in terms of popularity of course in the interwar period football is much more I mean spectator popularity also football is much more popular than handball has ever been.

Guy Burton 24:33

And if I could if I could just you know you were talking about the interwar period there I was curious you know this this issue you know the sort of the salience of class: I mean, does it given Switzerland is such a stable country and obviously isn't experiencing all sort of the the upheaval that happens you know during the early 1940s, does this sort of class -based organization of sports and football continue after 1945? And also more generally looking at because you've alluded to in Switzerland about the diversity of linguistic difference, economic difference there; you know, how does this play out in Swiss football after 1945, you know, both on the football pitch and in the stands? Does it contribute to any sort of particular you know existing political linguistic rivalries or significant football rivalries at all?

Christian Koller 25:25

Um so these these workers football organization continues uh after after World War One - er, World War Two. 

Christian Koller 25:37

But there's sort of a long and slow decline in terms of being distinct from the rest of the of the football movement. One has to mention already in the interwar period it is not that successful. So in terms of spectators it's just several hundred and even for international games maybe one or two thousand. 

Christian Koller 26:06

And also it has some strongholds Zurich, Basel, Geneva, but that's about it. So it's never sort of geographically spreads all over the country like sort of the other football movement which already expands before World War I. 

Christian Koller 26:30

And then already during World War II and after World War II there are more and more cooperations amongst these two football movements. There is an attempt by the worker sports movement to create a national league, however which only exists for a couple of years and then in the late 1950s they returned to just having local championships with then final games at the end and many clubs then switched to the other league system and there still exists today a very small sort of championship in this former worker sports association but it sort of doesn't really have a future. 

Christian Koller 27:32

They also had a national team that ended in the 1970s. So that's sort of a long and slow decline so this doesn't really contribute that much to to a specific sport and football culture in Switzerland so the importance of this worker sports movement is I'd say much bigger for instance in Austria in the interwar period. 

Guy Burton 28:07

But what about the other elements of difference in Switzerland, linguistic, religious, how does that play out in terms of football and football rivalries, if they do? 

Christian Koller 28:20

Yeah it is visible, well of course you have have clubs from German speaking and French speaking and Italian speaking areas which have sort of their specific image, but it's sort of different at different times. 

Christian Koller 28:51

So, for instance, in the 1980s and early 1990s, there was always this discussion, is it compatible, the Latin style and the Germanic style. And for instance, in the early 1980s, the two dominant clubs in Switzerland were Grasshoppers from Zurich and Serret from Geneva. 

Christian Koller 29:23

And then there was always the question, can we just combine these two teams into a national team? and sometimes the solution was well the attack is rather Latin where you need technique and the defense where you need the brutal guys and in the early 80s the Swiss defense was called [...] knockdown company. 

Christian Koller 29:56

This was done entirely of players from Grasshoppers and maybe a football club of Zurich and there were always then also this discussion that because Switzerland in the 70s and 80s the Swiss national team didn't have many successes there was always these discussions is it may be down to that that for instance the national team players can't even communicate with each other when they have an away game in the hotel the the German speakers share the rooms amongst them and the French speakers and sort of there's no common team spirit and no common mentality. 

Christian Koller 30:43

These discussions then completely ended in the early 1990s when more and more players with a migrant background came into the national team and it was no longer about French speakers and German speakers but about people with a Turkish background or an Albanian background or a Spanish background or an Italian background and the very few with the Swiss background. 

Christian Koller 31:21

These discussions, these linguistic discussions already started very very early. There was even a split in the late 19th century, in 1899, where a separate Ligue Romand was founded, but this had nothing to do with linguistic issues, but with the question whether games should be played at Sunday or not. 

Christian Koller 31:56

And it was mainly the British players who didn't want to. But during World War I, when there was also a split in support for the Entente powers, or the middle powers between the different linguistic groups of Switzerland, these conflicts also emerged again in football. 

Christian Koller 32:23

And there was even one incident in 1920, which nearly resulted in a split of the Swiss Football Association because Germany at that time was banned by FIFA. But the Swiss Football Association, which was dominated by German speakers, arranged a friendly game against Germany. 

Christian Koller 32:45

This resulted, of course, in protests from the UK, Belgium, France, but also heavy debates within Switzerland. The split of the Swiss Association was only avoided when it was decided that in the future representatives of both linguistic groups should be involved in the decision -making process of against whom international friendly games should be organized. 

Christian Koller 33:22

So this linguistic thing is one of it. We have also periods where more the German speakers or clubs from the German speaking regions dominate the championship or from the French speaking area or even from the Italian speaking area in the 1940s, especially, and from time to time, also fears, for instance, that the French speaking area could completely disappear at the beginning of the 21st century when a survey in Geneva went bankrupt and afterwards, 

Christian Koller 34:06

Xamax in Neuchatel, there were also fears that it could become sort of a German speaking only championship, which of course would have been an extremely bad thing. But then you have other rivalries. A traditional one is between between Zurich and Basel or probably it would be correct to say between Basel and Zurich because the rivalry is much more emphasized from a Basel point of view than from Zurich. 

Christian Koller 34:43

So both Basel against Zurich and Basel against Grasshoppers have traditionally been high risk games. And this has to do with sort of a special relationship between the two cities, although politically they are, let's say, quite similar somehow. 

Christian Koller 35:12

But for instance, at the Basel Carnival where they make these songs, there are sort of two enemy images. One of them are the Germans and the other is Zurich. So this is traditionally the case and this also can be seen on the level of football. 

Christian Koller 35:47

Then of course traditional rivalries are within cities or within regions and here it's especially Zurich against Grasshoppers. Both of them are clubs with a great tradition. Grasshoppers was founded in 1886 and Zurich in 1896. 

Christian Koller 36:12

So this tradition is about 130 years old and still today when they play against each other it is always said this is the 200th and so it's sort of accounting right from the beginning. Grasshoppers has always had the image of a bourgeois club which is also correct I'd say. 

Christian Koller 36:42

If Zurich has the image of a working class or a proletarian club this is not completely correct and is mainly mirroring the rivalry against the Grasshoppers. Because for instance the the presidents of the football club of Zurich in the last 70 years have always been entrepreneurs, rich people and sort of also politically there's not a special link to the social democratic party or the trade unions or so but there is sort of this image [that] it's the bourgeois club and sort of working class club. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:33

Now one thing that is very interesting and I think it emerges clearly from what you told us is that you can almost track the history of the country through football so a lot of the big changes are reflected into into football in your in your narration. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:48

I was wondering if we look at modern days and and the sort of migration from different parts of the world and I thought it's visibly reflected into the national football team now that that has got players from Kosovo with and Albania with all the political problems related to that part of the world and other parts of the world and the African continent. 

Francesco Belcastro 38:12

So how relevant is this political to what extent has Switzerland seen the same debates that other European countries has seen? Is there a sense that this has changed? The way the national team is perceived and supported maybe by fans? 

Christian Koller 38:29

Yeah, I mean, Swiss football has always been highly influenced by immigration. You can go back to the very beginning. Of course, it's the immigrated British people, but that's sort of an elitist immigration. 

Christian Koller 38:46

And then in the late 19th century, you have already a very strong immigration from the neighboring countries. Then there's sort of a break between the First and the Second World War, and then it starts again from the period of strong economic growth from the end of the Second World War. 

Christian Koller 39:14

But already in the interwar period, there are some players with a migrant background, especially Italy. And this continues after World War II. We have after World War II also the phenomenon of many immigrant football clubs that are founded. 

Christian Koller 39:37

So there's work immigration of course, especially from southern Europe. But there are also waves of immigration due to political events. For instance, from Hungary after 1956, from Czechoslovakia after 1968. 

Christian Koller 39:58

And the interesting thing is if you have a look at when these immigrant clubs are founded, it's more or less the history of immigration to Switzerland. So usually about two years after you have a wave of immigration from an individual country or an individual region, then you have the first clubs from this region. 

Christian Koller 40:23

It's from Italy in the 50s or even already back in the 20s, then Spain, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Turkey, Greece, Kosovo, etc., etc. So this sort of reflects the immigration. And yeah, then you have also more and more players with the migrant background. 

Christian Koller 40:50

This starts in the late 1980s. And then by the late 1990s, it is so -called, we call them secondo. So second generation players become absolutely dominant. Now the response to that is ambivalent. First, from a purely sport point of view, This dominance of the so -called secondo players in the national team coincides with Switzerland again becoming more successful. 

Christian Koller 41:36

So Switzerland did not qualify for any world or European championship. So the last one was 1966 and then there is a break until 1994. And in between they never managed to qualify for any important tournament. 

Christian Koller 41:58

And so exactly at this moment when these secondo players become dominant, Switzerland becomes relatively successful once again. And it is nowadays normal sort of and is expected that Switzerland qualifies for such tournaments. 

Christian Koller 42:21

And this also resulted then in discussions and maybe the Swiss Swiss have become too comfortable. So they are too wealthy. So why struggle to become a good football player if you can just go to university and then work for a bank and earn quite a lot of money. 

Christian Koller 42:49

Whilst these immigrants, the sons of labor immigrants or of political refugees, they start at the very bottom of society and sort of football is one of the very little possibilities to climb the social ladder. 

Christian Koller 43:17

This has some truth probably. And then, of course, you have also these discussions, like in other countries, is this still our national team? It has, as you know, there have been examples, for instance, from Germany or France, of very racist responses, also from foreign politicians. 

Christian Koller 43:51

There have not been that prominent or that racist remarks by that prominent politicians, but sort of the tendency is similar. You have sort of the right -wing populists who criticize the amount of national players with a migrant background. 

Christian Koller 44:19

And on the other hand you have also attempts by more liberal and left -wing political forces to use these national players as an example to show that immigration is beneficial for both the immigrants and Switzerland, Swiss society, Swiss economy and also Swiss football. 

Christian Koller 44:48

Overall I'd say it hasn't had really a political impact. So there have been, as I mentioned at the beginning, direct democracy is very important in Switzerland. There have been rotations for instance about the making the way to get the Swiss citizenship easier or less complex where those who were in favor of that used the example of these football players. 

Christian Koller 45:24

But as I'd say it hasn't had an impact on the outcome of these rotations and as far as I can see sort of supporters of far -right political parties manage to separate these things. So they can still be happy when Switzerland wins even though most of the players have a Kosovoian or Turkish background. 

Christian Koller 45:59

But on the next day they can still also support the slogan we need to get rid of all these immigrants and there are too many foreigners in Switzerland. 

Francesco Belcastro 46:10

That's probably has to do a lot with right -wingers, often not been the most clear and people around but that's my view!

Francesco Belcastro 46:16

I was just gonna say, sorry Guy, just quickly, I was. I wanted to remind listeners that we had an episode last year on the politics of football in Belgium, and there are a lot of parallels, particularly in terms of the sort of migration process and what that brought. 

Francesco Belcastro 46:33

And in that case, one of the iconic players was a player of Italian origin, Vincenzo Schifo. And as you were talking, Christian, I was thinking about Ciriaco Sforza, who was a sort of iconic 1990s player, who was of Italian origins, and then went to play in Italy. 

Francesco Belcastro 46:47

But Guy, I know you want to ask a question on women's football, so please. 

Guy Burton 46:50

Yes, I do, because Christian, you're talking about how women got the vote quite late in Switzerland, compared to the rest of Europe. 

Guy Burton 46:59

And so that got me thinking about what is the state of women's football in Switzerland? And the fact that actually Switzerland is going to be the host of the women's Euros next year, is that having any sort of impact at all on the game in Switzerland? 

Christian Koller 47:16

We'll see, but I think this will certainly give another boost to women's soccer in Switzerland. I mean, the overall development of women's football in Switzerland is somehow quite similar as in other countries. 

Christian Koller 47:38

And the fact of these very late political rights for women in Switzerland contrasts with other things which are contrary. For instance, Switzerland is on the continent, the first country that already in the late 19th century allows women to attend universities. 

Christian Koller 48:04

So this is somehow grotesque. So for a hundred years, women, for instance, could study the law but couldn't vote. So it's not sort of that everything to do with women comes much later in Switzerland than in other countries, but it's more complex. 

Christian Koller 48:32

And with women's football, we have the first beginnings in the early 1920s. So that's quite similar in Germany and only a few years after Britain or France. But then there is very little until the mid 1960s, which is again sort of similar to other countries. 

Christian Koller 49:01

And it starts again in the early 1970s. And Switzerland is already present at this non -official world and European tournaments that are organized in Germany. in the early 1970s and then it continues with local championships and then a national championship etc. 

Christian Koller 49:27

in the 70s and 80s and then a continual development since the 1990s. So the overall development is quite similar as elsewhere also regarding to spectator attention, medial attention etc. Probably this championship will give it another boost. 

Christian Koller 50:02

As far as I have heard yesterday, the opening for booking tickets was started, and as far as I have heard, the response also from Switzerland was quite good. Maybe just because the tickets are that cheap, which also obviously says something about the status of women's football, that the tickets are much cheaper than of a male European championship, but I expect people also from Switzerland to attend these games. 

Guy Burton 50:35

Can I just ask very quickly? Because there was obviously that big gap after the 1920s, was women's football sanctioned in Switzerland like it was in the UK, where the FA said we can't allow women to be playing on the pitches? Or was it more so there just wasn't interest in it? 

Christian Koller 50:54

It wasn't sanctioned. Also there were never organized teams playing against each other, but there was just individual ladies, usually who were also pioneers in other sports, track and field, for instance, who also started organizing football trainings. 

Christian Koller 51:20

But this very quickly disappeared as well. And then we have also, in the German speaking part of Switzerland, a tradition which is called Gumpelternier, which are unorganized tournaments on a very local level, with just fun teams playing against each other with many accidents, as you can imagine. 

Christian Koller 51:49

And there's very little research about that, because you don't have it in the sources, maybe in the local press, but apparently there you've always had mixed teams or even all female teams from the 30s through the 50s to the 60s, but sort of that was never considered to be a serious part of organizing sport activities but just fun or for charity reasons and things like that, but probably there you have sort of quite the long tradition. 

Francesco Belcastro 52:34

Christian, thank you very much. We have covered such a big amount of ground and we've learned so much about the country and it's been a fantastic episode, so thank you very much for your time. Guy? 

Guy Burton 52:46

Yes, well I mean we just wanted to ask Christian what he's working on at the moment that listeners should look out for. 

Christian Koller 52:54

Well, I've done research on football history for about a quarter of a century now, but more recently I have switched to ice hockey. So there's a book forthcoming in the next couple of ice hockey in Switzerland, where we have many parallels to the history of football, but also some differences. 

Christian Koller 53:33

For instance, obviously the Cold War constellation in ice hockey is much more important than in football. Also in Switzerland, the question of should we continue to play against Soviet teams and things like that, which were never that important in football. 

Christian Koller 53:56

But in other cases, you can see clear parallels between football and ice hockey and also how they influenced each other. 

Francesco Belcastro 54:06

It's fascinating. Maybe later on in the year we can have you back for a comparative episode on football and hockey. It would be very interesting. 

Guy Burton 54:14

Well, thank you so much, Christian, for taking the time to speak to us. We really appreciate it. 

Francesco Belcastro 54:19

Thank you, Christian. Thank you very much. 

Guy Burton 54:21

And so, Francesco, tell us, what do we need to do before we let the listeners go this week? 

Francesco Belcastro 54:26

Well, we got three things today. First, you should get your tickets for the Euros. 

Guy Burton 54:31

I've already signed up for them, so I'm waiting to hear. 

Francesco Belcastro 54:33

Okay, so you're sorted, and listeners who are in Switzerland should do the same. 

Francesco Belcastro 54:38

The second one is that we need to remind listeners to rate, like, share, whatever their app that they're using allows them to do to help us push the podcast. And the other thing is that they need to get in touch with us. 

Francesco Belcastro 54:54

Not only to remind you to get tickets for the final of the Euros, but also because we want to listen, we want to get you better advice on what kind of episodes we should be doing, right? Some of the best episodes we've had so far have been suggestions by listeners. 

Francesco Belcastro 55:08

And where can they find us, Guy? They know you're in Geneva, so they can look for you there. 

Guy Burton 55:11

We're near Geneva, but yes, they can find us pretty much everywhere. So on social media, X or Twitter, Facebook, we have an Instagram account. 

Guy Burton 55:21

We also have individual LinkedIn accounts, and Francesco is desperate for you to message him at LinkedIn. 

Francesco Belcastro 55:25

Please do, please do. 

Guy Burton 55:26

And also Blue Sky, which we don't do in the fall, but we need more. But that's pretty much where, and so do get in touch with us, we really appreciate it. 

Guy Burton 55:34

And we'll see you again next week, so Francesco, thanks again. 

Francesco Belcastro 55:37

Next Monday, remember Monday morning. 

Guy Burton 55:39

Monday, Monday mornings. So yeah, remember, if you haven't already done so to subscribe, because it will just drop into your inbox first thing on Monday morning, won't it? 

Francesco Belcastro 55:48

It will. It will.

Guy Burton 55:49

Yeah. Alright. Well listen, Francesca, it's great talking to you again and I'll speak to you again next week. And Christian, once again, thank you for taking the time to speak with us. 

Francesco Belcastro 55:57

Thank you, Christian. Thank you, Guy. Bye, bye.