Can Racism Be Kicked Out of Football? ft. Christos Kassimeris

This week co-hosts Guy and Francesco sit down with Professor Christos Kassimeris, a leading expert on racism in football. Together, they explore the roots and complexities of racism within the sport. 

Professor Kassimeris provides valuable insights into the nature and definition of racism, shedding light on how it manifests within football. The conversation delves into the role of anti-racism campaigns and racism online, particularly in social media spaces, where football-related abuse is widespread. Professor Kassimeris shares his ongoing research and the efforts being made to address this pressing issue. 

Transcript

Can Racism Be Kicked Out of Football? ft. Christos Kassimeris

Guy Burton 00:05

Hello, and welcome to another edition of the FootPol Podcast where football meets politics. I'm one of your co -hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co -host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:19

I'm all right, Guy. How are you? 

Guy Burton 00:21

Yeah. Not too bad. Not too bad. Do you know what we're talking about today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:24

Very important episode today. Not necessarily epic topic, but I think like an episode we want to do for very long. 

Guy Burton 00:31

Exactly. 

Francesco Belcastro 00:31

And finally, we got an excellent person to do it, so I'm glad we're doing it. 

Guy Burton 00:36

Yeah. We've got a brilliant person to talk to us, you know, I think the expert in the field. And we're really grateful that he's taken the time to join us today. 

Guy Burton 00:44

The topic we're talking about is racism, and of course, it's kind of online variants as well. And the person who's joining us is Christos Kazimeris, who's a professor of international relations at the European University of Cyprus. 

Guy Burton 00:55

Christos, welcome today. How are you doing? 

Christos Kassimeris 00:58

Welcome, Guy. Welcome, Francesco. Thank you very much for the invitation. It's really a privilege to be here with you today. And I think I'm fine. Usually on Fridays, I'm fine. 

Christos Kassimeris 01:08

I'm better than the other days. 

Guy Burton 01:11

Well, just so obviously for listeners to hear that, having heard that it's recorded on Friday, this will be going out on Monday. So don't get confused! You know, it is Monday morning, you know, when you're listening to this!

Guy Burton 01:22

Yeah. Now, just to put people in the picture who, you know, to give a sense of who Christos is, he has researched and written extensively on different aspects of, you know, both international relations as well as politics in terms and as well as football. 

Guy Burton 01:38

And he's really prominent in the debate around racism and discrimination. And he's written a number of key texts associated with this subject. They include The Politics of Football, which came out last year in 2023, and as well as Racism in Football, which was published by Bristol University Press in 2023. 

Guy Burton 01:56

He's also written Discrimination in Football, which came out of Routledge in 2021. Football Comes Home: Symbolic Identities in European Football, and Anti -Racism in Football, and European Football in Black and White: Tackling Racism in Football. 

Guy Burton 02:08

So actually a really excellent guest for us to have to discuss... 

Francesco Belcastro 02:11

So we are asking him about racism, but it's published on a lot of topics. So maybe we may get a cheeky question on something else. 

Guy Burton 02:19

Exactly. But Christos, before we start, a lot of us who are on the show, our football fans, can we ask about you? I mean, who's your team and what's their situation at the moment? 

Christos Kassimeris 02:32

Well, my team is an immigrants team. 

Christos Kassimeris 02:36

The club was founded in the late 19th century in Minor Asia, the western coast of Turkey, adjacent to the Aegean Sea. After the problems between Turkey and Greece, many Greeks had to migrate back to motherland. 

Christos Kassimeris 02:55

They set up the club that was initially designed to as a cultural meeting point, if you like, for those immigrants. And then they were keen on to adopting certain sporting activities. That's how the football club emerged. 

Christos Kassimeris 03:12

It's supposed to be historically the oldest football club in Greece. They are playing in red and white, red and blue, sorry, white a little bit. White is for the skies, the open skies. Blue is for the Aegean Sea. 

Christos Kassimeris 03:28

And red is for the bloods of those that sacrificed their lives during the Greek -Turkish conflict back then. It's a club that was at some points owned by the very famous world, famous Onassis family. 

Christos Kassimeris 03:46

But back then, football was not a kind of commodity that it is nowadays. So no serious investments went into the football club. I'm only mentioning that because four years ago, due to the precarious financial situation of the club, Panionios dropped four divisions and spent the years following climbing back up to the second division that they are now playing in. 

Christos Kassimeris 04:14

And hopefully we may see them, if not next year in the years to come in the first division where it really belongs. 

Guy Burton 04:21

Okay, that's Panyos. 

Christos Kassimeris 04:23

Panionios. 

Guy Burton 04:24

Panyonios. Okay, excellent. I'm going to ask my wife about this team because she's Greek. 

Christos Kassimeris 04:29

I was going to ask that! Chistos, when you mentioned it with kind of Greek accents, that was a bit confusing, but now I got the idea! 

Guy Burton 04:38

Except her family are mostly... She should support them because her maternal side of the family comes from Izmir. 

Guy Burton 04:46

So I will ask about this, but from what I know is Panathinaikos is big in their family. I will check.

Francesco Belcastro 04:56

But you are now, you know, when you are a new fan, you're allowed to follow...

Guy Burton 04:58

I obviously... And I'm loving, I'm loving the colors! 

Guy Burton 05:02

It sounds it sounds like they overlap with Aldershot! I might have to get a shirt! Christos, before we start, can we can we want I know it's gonna be a bit It's a big big meaty question to start with but in order to sort of help listeners get a sense of frame the the discussion that we're about to have can we talk a little bit about what racism racism is and how it relates to football. 

Guy Burton 05:26

What's the relationship between the two? 

Christos Kassimeris 05:29

Simply puts racism is the perceived superiority of one group of people over others based exclusively on the criteria such as the skin column In which case of course the white group would be the privileged group and anything non -white would be qualifying as an inferior group of people for many different reasons. 

Christos Kassimeris 05:58

That kind of dates back to the times of the first European explorers. When they set foot on Africa or North America, they came across civilizations that had been very, very old, but based on what Europe had produced up until that time, the kind of civilization that we had in Europe, the organization of governments, the facilities available to humans ranging from access to clean water, harvesting, 

Christos Kassimeris 06:38

light industries at some points. They didn't have this kind of stuff, of course, in Africa or North America. So, dramatically, they were down -created and perhaps to a certain extent dehumanized, as if I cannot possibly, me, the white person, be 100% equal to that black person because he, she has managed to construct anything of note. 

Christos Kassimeris 07:04

Therefore, God - because all these people back then were quite religious, the European explorers - if God really created us all equal, surely there must be some sort of inequality here and there. And the inequality that they managed to kind of establish and supported with, so to speak, academic criteria was that the white man or woman, of course, for that matter, were probably more intelligent than anyone who's non -white. 

Christos Kassimeris 07:35

And this is what gradually, of course, led to the phenomenon of slavery and the exploitation of the black people in Africa, in the plantations in the United States, and the slave trades, of course, also flourishing in Europe. 

Christos Kassimeris 07:50

European markets, Western European markets, predominantly. So I would say that racism is kind of inherent in human civilization. Every human civilization that tried to conquer others, they did that with the belief that they were giving them the light of wisdom, they were modernizing them, they were bringing them closer to God, the Christian God, that is. 

Christos Kassimeris 08:15

And in exchange, of course, they would be getting access to the natural resources, all the wealth that those poorer, less developed countries had to offer. Gradually, that comes back, of course, into our society. 

Christos Kassimeris 08:30

There is the subconscious of us being whites and therefore eligible for a next number of rights that doesn't necessarily apply to people of a different skin color. So it's an anti -social phenomenon that probably found fertile ground in football, much more than any other sports, for one simple reason. In the places where football is played professionally, the football stadiums, they can house a minimum of 20 -30 ,000 and a maximum of 80 -90 ,000. 

Christos Kassimeris 09:06

The mass that is occupying the seats on the terraces, taking advantage of the anonymity that these thousands of pounds offer, allows them the opportunity to freely express their feelings and vent their frustration against anything that is non -white and therefore non -acceptable perhaps to their own standards. 

Christos Kassimeris 09:32

So racism is not a football disease, it didn't come out of football. Football is a sport and like any other sports, there are other much better phenomena to talk about, like education, community building, teaching young kids responsibility. 

Christos Kassimeris 09:55

It's certainly not related to racism or other ugly phenomena like football violence, of course, and hooliganism. 

Guy Burton 10:03

Can I ask as well, because we're talking about, you talk about it in a way, the origins of racism being sort of out there, so when European societies first encountered the Other, but in situ in Africa, in the Americas. 

Guy Burton 10:22

But of course, then now what we have is we have, at least in Europe, much more diverse societies in which they're more mixed. Would you be able to elaborate a bit as to why racism persists, given that we are more exposed on a day -to -day basis to the Other? 

Christos Kassimeris 10:46

Well, I think that's what further amplifies the problem of racism in European society at least, is the fact that Europe and more particularly the European Union, which is a political entity of course that has a very strong financial and economic dimension, is located close to many, many poorer countries in Africa, North Africa in particular, the Middle East and the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and former communist countries in Europe that are still outside the European Union, 

Christos Kassimeris 11:27

not to mention of course the Russian Federation and of course other Asian countries that lie beneath. In that particular case Europe and the European Union would be the ideal destination for any migrants who wishes to live his or her 

Christos Kassimeris 11:45

personal, political, economic problems behind and look for a better future for him, his family and the children. In that case the European Union would be the obvious destination. One would assume that they only need to cross the Mediterranean and there they are, the rich Europe. 

Christos Kassimeris 12:03

Unfortunately on a weekly basis almost we keep on reading articles about boats capsizing in the Mediterranean and how many lives that cost including women, men and of course children unfortunately. There is this constant influence of non -whites into the European society and then it's either certain individuals who never got used to living side by side by a non -native non -white speaker or a person with a different religious background because that comes into play as well, 

Christos Kassimeris 12:43

which is more often exploited by the extreme right in terms of political ideologies. And the last 20 years we've seen a sharp increase in voters turning towards the extreme right. We've seen that in Germany, we've seen that in France, we've seen that in Spain and as well as in Italy. 

Christos Kassimeris 13:06

I suppose it's an ongoing problem that will be very difficult to eliminate, probably not because elimination means a number of practices and policies and laws coming into force. But trying to remedy the situation with the way that politics is now in the European Union and Europe more generally with two conflicts close by, that definitely affects the perception of people, the same people that are voters. 

Christos Kassimeris 13:37

And by supporting the extreme rights and voting for the extreme right is a clear indication that they not wish migrants to come to Europe. And in some cases, as we've seen in the past, they even wish that some of the migrants that are already legal residents in their countries, they ask that they are deported because they are often for wrong reasons with no scientific data to support it. 

Christos Kassimeris 14:04

They are associated to crime, violence, prostitution, and all this kind of phenomenon. Now, to mention that some consider them a threat when it comes to looking for a job. 

Francesco Belcastro 14:16

Thank you very much, Christos. Thanks for this very useful introduction to the topic. Now, we have dealt or we have engaged with this relation between racism and football, sort of at the European level from a European perspective. 

Francesco Belcastro 14:33

And part of your work has really looked at the European perspective. Part of it has actually taken a kind of broader approach. Would you say that this relationship between racism and football It's distinctively European, it's a European phenomenon, does it manifest itself in different ways in other contexts, or is there kind of something that goes across different geographical areas and kind of defines this relationship between racism and football, in your view? 

Christos Kassimeris 15:02

I think it's a worldwide phenomenon. We kind of focus on racism in European football and to be more specific in Western European football because those football leagues are more popular within Europe and abroad. 

Christos Kassimeris 15:19

So when you have fans watching a European game between any two German clubs, French clubs, Spanish clubs, Italian clubs, or the Premier League that is the king of football leagues out there, that's an easy way to give us a taste as to why there is racism in football and what kind of racism we're talking about. 

Christos Kassimeris 15:40

But of course there are many other kind of countries that face the same kind of problems, either they're not being officially recorded, or if any incident is recorded, we usually turn the blind eye because it's not an ongoing phenomenon like we witnessed it in Western European football. 

Christos Kassimeris 15:57

For example, in the United States what I find extremely peculiar is that incidents relating to racism see the headlines on a regular basis. We had, of course, the murder of George Floyd during the pandemic, COVID -19. 

Christos Kassimeris 16:17

That was, of course, an event that took huge proportions outside the United States. We saw, for example, first the English football players taking the knee as a kind of demonstration or better, perhaps, a protest against racial inequality. 

Christos Kassimeris 16:37

There is a lot of racism in the United States. There is no doubt about that, and there is the necessary data to support such an argument. The unorthodox thing is that we don't witness it in football stadia. 

Christos Kassimeris 16:52

Does that mean that those racist Americans don't like football? Because football is not as popular or soccer as it is called in the United States. It's not as popular as it is in Europe or other parts of the planet. 

Christos Kassimeris 17:07

Is that a coincidence or the American racist detests soccer? And that is why we don't have any racist incidents. We have racism when it comes to how many black managers, black coaches, are responsible for MLS football clubs, the Major League Soccer. 

Christos Kassimeris 17:26

There are not that many. It's three or four last time I researched into this area. Is that because of a lack of opportunities? Is it because there is some sort of a wall separating white coaches from the non -white coaches? 

Christos Kassimeris 17:41

The non -white coaches will argue and do argue that they are not given enough opportunities. So there is definitely racism in US football in Brazil. There is the issue between the white Brazilians and the dark skin colored Brazilians. 

Christos Kassimeris 18:04

You have that in football players, you had that in managers in the past. There is some say some sort of financial division, the white Brazilians are almost always associated to higher classes and more wealth. 

Christos Kassimeris 18:21

Whereas the dark skin Brazilians are the ones that stereotypically one would expect to come from the favelas, the poorer areas of Brazil. So that would definitely be an issue. China should have this kind of problems as well. 

Christos Kassimeris 18:36

But as the United Nations pinpointed several years ago, the Chinese constitution, China is not of course a democratic country. So a constitution in a country like that has a different kind of significance, obviously, when compared to other democracies. 

Christos Kassimeris 18:52

But in any case, the Chinese law, to put it more generally, doesn't make any reference to racial discrimination. They think that this is a Western phenomenon that not only has no place in their society, there is any in their society. 

Christos Kassimeris 19:09

Therefore, you can't possibly record a racist incident if racism is not defined by legal instruments. And then again, of course, you have racism in Africa, North Africans, the Arabs in North Africa, consider the Africans from the sub -Saharan area all the way down to South Africa as lesser to them. 

Christos Kassimeris 19:34

We kind of witnessed this kind of differentiation when it comes to the World Cup that was held in Qatar a few years back, where the Arab community, which happens to be a minority when compared to the numbers that reside in Qatar, but are non -legal residents or citizens of Qatar, the vast majority of people there are Asians from Southeast Asia or Africans. 

Christos Kassimeris 20:02

And the exploitation of those people, there've been many reports coming out from all sorts of NGOs dealing with human rights are devastating in terms of how those people were treated and underpaid or having their passports confiscated by the authorities. 

Christos Kassimeris 20:22

So I would say that racism is everywhere, more or less. In some places, it's more concealed for reasons I cannot explain, either because of legal definitions or the absence of them as in China. or because we simply don't accept that we're suffering from racial menial society, or because those that are usually the victims of racial abuse for the governments or the authorities there are not worthwhile looking into it. 

Guy Burton 20:56

Can I ask just...

Francesco Belcastro 20:57

Sorry, Guy, before before you do that, can I remind listeners, because Christos has rightly remembered reminds us of the case of Brazil, and we've done a fantastic episode last year with Ana Paula da Silva on race and football from a player's point of view, in the case of Brazil. 

Francesco Belcastro 21:14

So listeners should really, really go and check it out because it really complements what Christos was saying. Please, Guy. 

Guy Burton 21:20

No, sure. Well, I mean, if I could just, because one of the things that you were mentioning as well is that, well, a couple of things. 

Guy Burton 21:27

So you've talked about that racism, it's separate to football, but it sort of manifests itself through football. And of course, you know, the size of the grounds makes it easier to be anonymous and to express those kinds of, that kind of hatred. 

Guy Burton 21:40

But one thing I'm curious about, is there a gender dimension here? Because one of the things about women's football, and we've discussed this in other episodes, in some ways it's younger, it's newer, it's not had the kind of history that men's football has had. 

Guy Burton 21:56

Do we find that in women's football, there's less racism, and perhaps also because the crowds are smaller, it's harder to express yourself in a racist manner? 

Christos Kassimeris 22:08

Well, you do have racism in women's football as well, either among players, or usually, I would like to believe, opposing teams, but definitely between the fans of a club abusing the players of another club. 

Christos Kassimeris 22:22

It has gone under the radar for several years, either because of what you mentioned, so far, female football, women's football is not attracting the huge audience that men's football is attracting. But on the other hand, I would say. 

Christos Kassimeris 22:39

that the environment in women's football is more acceptable. Think of it as in terms of homophobia. There are far, far, far, far, far, many more women footballers that have come out declaring openly their homosexuality. 

Christos Kassimeris 22:58

And there is less than a dozen male footballers who've done absolutely the same with less than half of them being active the moment they came out. In other words, like I said, the women's football is, it seems to be at least more acceptable to all sorts of kind of differentiation that may be among humans. 

Christos Kassimeris 23:23

It's much less so when it comes to men's football. Maybe because in men's football and with males, I'm going to use a stereotype, but males predominantly occupying the terraces. it is related to issues connected to masculinity. 

Christos Kassimeris 23:41

So if you want to qualify as a masculine man, an alpha male, you shout abuse, you shout homophobic chants, racist chants in order to be acceptable by the fellow fans who obviously have done the same thing a minute ago just before you. 

Christos Kassimeris 23:58

So it may be down to masculinity even though that would be oversimplifying a phenomenon that is definitely needs of much more research for us to better understand what is happening and why is it happening in football. 

Francesco Belcastro 24:13

So one thing that I find interesting and perhaps is difficult to generalize because you explained very well how racism in football takes very different connotations, very different forms in different football contexts, is that there have been in the last two or three decades, at least in most Western countries, attempts by authorities, institutions to counter racism. 

Francesco Belcastro 24:38

I mean, in Britain, they probably Kick It Out, formally Kick Racism Out of Football movement campaign has probably been the most prominent. There have been sort of versions in other European countries as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 24:52

From your experience, which of these initiatives have been more successful? What are the typologies, I don't know, led from federations, more like grassroots? Which ones can we say have been more successful? 

Francesco Belcastro 25:10

On the podcast, we have dealt with a couple of times the issue of Vini Jr. and his treatment in Spain, Vini Jr., the Real Madrid player. And now he has in many ways become a bit of a symbol for anti -racism, an agency by footballers. 

Francesco Belcastro 25:30

So what's your view of that? 

Christos Kassimeris 25:33

Well, every anti -racist organization, whether it is devoted to football or any other aspect of life deserves, of course, recognition and they have been successful in their own way, at least in terms of raising awareness through whatever campaigns they are holding every now and then. 

Christos Kassimeris 25:54

FARE, the FARE Network, Football Against Racism in Europe, that seems to be the pan -European umbrella for all anti -racism organizations devoted to football, like others you mentioned, Kick It Out. There is also Football Unites, Racism Divides in England, uh, Show Racism The Red Card, and almost every European country would have a couple of anti -racism organizations, like I said, other exclusively devoted to football or sport more generally or to other aspects of society. 

Christos Kassimeris 26:31

The problem with this kind of institutions first of all is whether they have the financial backing of governments or other international perhaps organizations for them to be able to carry out their activities. 

Christos Kassimeris 26:48

The most important nevertheless is they can shout about racism and anti -racism all they want. Can they put anything into force? Can they affect legislation? Can they give to police authorities a list of incidents that took place in 2023 and 2024 up to today and say okay we know this has happened in these kind of instances. 

Christos Kassimeris 27:18

We have the security cameras. You have all the needs, all the information you have. Go and arrest the people. They cannot impose penalties. They cannot even suggest penalties. So they are there for sporting organizations governing bodies in sports to have local national football associations or FIFA as a pretense. 

Christos Kassimeris 27:47

We support you guys. We give you the money that you need to carry out your activities. Well done. Excellent. We care about racism as well. How much do they care about racism, FIFA, UEFA and national football associations? 

Christos Kassimeris 28:02

Nobody knows. The problem is that considering the fact FIFA was the first to officially acknowledge racism as a phenomenon in football back in 2001. It means that racism in football all the years before that was simply overlooked. 

Christos Kassimeris 28:22

A quick explanation as to why it was overlooked. That was probably because during the 70s and 80s football authorities were preoccupied with another phenomenon in football, hooliganism. So when you have damage to property, when you have injuries or people losing their lives, we only need to remember the let's call it Champions League, it wasn't Champions League at the time, the final in Heysel in Belgium between Liverpool and Juventus, 

Christos Kassimeris 28:52

one of the most horrifying moments in European football. Police authorities would definitely prefer to focus on eradicating violence from football stadia rather than dealing, well, he called me a black person, do something about it. 

Christos Kassimeris 29:09

It's understandable, yes, it's not acceptable also, yes. So we come to a point where we've turned millennia, we're into a new century, and football authorities have all of a sudden identified yet another issue with football, that is racism. 

Christos Kassimeris 29:26

No need to mention anything about sexism. Sexism is further down the line, even though sexism incidents had been recorded at the time as well. So this time we're focusing on football. What do we do? We need to come up with a strategy. 

Christos Kassimeris 29:39

So the strategy, the first adopted was the 10 point plan. 10 points saying all football federations, all clubs, all these, all that have a responsibility to protect the game from racist discrimination. 

Christos Kassimeris 29:55

All clubs must offer the same opportunities to all people, regardless of skin color. All clubs, all clubs, all clubs, and it goes on like that. Ultimately, what the 10 point plan was about, if there is a racist incident recorded, the club of the fans that were, of course, the culprits, will be forced to play a next number of games behind the closed gates, or in some cases, if the racist incident was not that big, 

Christos Kassimeris 30:29

have a partial closure of the stadium. And if racism is really out of context or blown out of proportion because something big really happened, we'll give you a fine. UEFA for the early stages, the group stage of Euro 2024, identified 17, one seven, 17 matches that were affected by racist behavior. 

Christos Kassimeris 30:59

All national associations were highly defined. So what? There is another measure that the 10 point plan is indirectly talking about and that the newer strategy, the three step protocol, I will talk about it in a minute, mentions more clearly. 

Christos Kassimeris 31:21

Point deductions, once Croatia or Serbia, Serbia, I can't remember, you would have to check that out for me. I think it was Serbia. Was a point deducted during the qualifying rounds for the Euro 16, if I'm not mistaken. 

Christos Kassimeris 31:41

That one point that was deducted for Serbia was not enough to disqualify them. Serbia qualified anyway. When it comes to the final rounds of a Euro competition, is UEFA prepared to deduct points from teams, national teams? 

Christos Kassimeris 32:02

And if so, would they be doing it to the powerhouses, Germany, France, England? Would they be sending the national team of England back home because a section of the fans racially abused a black French player? 

Christos Kassimeris 32:16

That would be bad for business. Only a few times have football matches been suspended. The model famous because that was played in the highest level possible in Europe. That was the Champions League match between Paris and germane and their Turkish club by Basaksehir - I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly. That was suspended because of some exchange between the referee and an assistant on the Turkish club's coaching staff. The game was replayed the day after or two days later. That is one of the few occasions when a football match was actually suspended. Even though referees according to the three -step protocol have every right and power to suspend a game.

Christos Kassimeris 33:04

The three -step protocol is basically this: You have racist fans or fans racially abusing a player. The referee has the right to stop the game and make an announcement from the public announcement system of the stadium. The football match resumes. If the fans continue to racially abuse a player, there is a second recommendation from the public announcement system in the stadium. If the racism continues the referee has the rights to abandon the game and get both teams back into the dressing room.

Christos Kassimeris 33:45

Now the interesting thing is this: so far the few cases where the three -step protocol has been implemented the referee only had to go up to the second step. Which means basically that twice a match is being stopped. Now if you look into it, you may have all sorts of different hypotheses.

Christos Kassimeris 34:08

My team is losing 1 -0. We're not playing well What can I do to stop playing? Because top -playing affects the performance for both clubs and it doesn't stop for a couple of minutes. It is for five to ten minutes any match breaking up for five to ten minutes. 

Christos Kassimeris 34:26

The player's resuming play later on is as if they're starting from scratch. They have to get the rhythm again. So my team is losing 1 -0. What can I do to stop the match and see if there is any kind of energy or any kind of revitalization of my players? 

Christos Kassimeris 34:43

I start shouting racist chants. So the game stops once. Wasn't that helpful enough? We'll do it again. So the game stops again. It stops the flow of the game. It affects the performance of the players. 

Christos Kassimeris 34:58

But I'm clever enough not to repeat any kind of racist abuse later on because then my club, my team, will be punished either by a ban on the stadium, partial closure, or a fine or worse, a point deduction. 

Christos Kassimeris 35:14

And being a loyal fan, I'm not going to go that way. I was good enough as a fan to stop playing twice. See if that affects the performance of the opposing team hoping for a better performance on our players or a better outcome generally speaking of the match. But this is as far as I go. And that is as far as it has gone when it comes to the three -step protocol being applied in few actually matches over the last few years. So you have two strategies that are completely ineffective. Paying a fine of 30 -40 000 euros probably is not much for most clubs, the clubs competing in European competitions at least.

Christos Kassimeris 35:59

I was reading earlier this week that the fans of Lazio and Barcelona were racially abusing some players of their opposition and both clubs were given a fine. So what? Is that a way to combat racism in football?

Guy Burton 36:15

Can we one of the things that we've we've noticed from the summer as well is talking about that three -point protocol uh when Vinicius Junior was interviewed, I think it was at the end of August, he talked about, you know, that the... It wasn't enough and that actually some you know there's some discussion amongst the players themselves about that they might actually have to do take matters into their own hands if the authorities aren't really effective, including walking off the pitch. I mean, what do you what do you think about that?

Christos Kassimeris 36:42

Well one thing the Spanish did right in the case of Vimicius Junior was that they had for the first time ever in the judicial history of Spain uh, fans being sentenced because of the racist abuse of that particular player. So something is happening. One could generalize it and say, okay football is football, there is also corruption, so we don't want to touch on certain players or certain fans or certain clubs because it's bad marketing for the business that football is. I can think of an interview that a Getafe player in Spain gave in August, 

Christos Kassimeris 37:26

where he mentioned racism. And a day later, the owner of the club came out to say that first, he hasn't been in Spain for that long to be in a position to judge whether he has been racially abused or not. 

Christos Kassimeris 37:41

Secondly, his English or Spanish, sorry, his Spanish was probably not that good at the time, to understand what the question posed by the journalist was really about and therefore he might have answered the question wrong. 

Christos Kassimeris 37:56

So downplaying a player's allegations is still going on in Spain, despite the conviction of certain fans, despite of to bring sexism into it. The infamous kiss of Rubíales, the Spanish player the year before the World Cup where Spain won the competition. 

Christos Kassimeris 38:22

There are certain issues that haven't been fixed. And perhaps sentencing three, four, five fans or banning them for the next number of years from attending any football match in Spain is not the remedy. 

Christos Kassimeris 38:34

Those people will return to the football stadium. Those people are nurturing racism, either with other fellow funds or with their own kids at home and family. Racism is an ongoing phenomenon and a simple ban or a fine one remedy the situation. 

Guy Burton 38:52

I mean, you've talked about the the action or inaction of authorities of institutions here and the limitations there. I mean, but one of the things I guess we're curious as football fans and supporters ourselves, what can we do, you know, as people, you know, as people who are enthusiastic about football to actually counter racist racism and racist abuse? What can we do? 

Christos Kassimeris 39:19

Not much, I suppose. Not much because if you try to do something, you will have to confront a few tens, dozens, hundreds fans whose purpose is to come to stadium, to football stadium, watch a match, not for watching it, but for creating chaos. 

Christos Kassimeris 39:39

Either chaos that will resort to violence if they're given the opportunity and they have been organized with the opposing funds to do XYZ violent incidents inside or outside the stadium, or simply because they serve the political agenda of a particular party that is not, of course, officially there, but representatives who have been recruiting members in football stadium, and there is a lot of research about it going back several decades, 

Christos Kassimeris 40:10

you would make yourself a target. You alone wouldn't do anything. You, me and Francesco, it's three, is it three enough? But there is a song that says three is a magic number. I seriously doubt it. So that's what I was saying earlier when it comes to the 10 -point strategy. 

Christos Kassimeris 40:30

Instead of saying FIFA will do XYZ, UEFA will do ABC, and then the National Association has to do KLM. It seems as if they are giving the responsibility, putting the responsibility on national associations, clubs, fans and players. 

Christos Kassimeris 40:51

How can I, as a single fan, do anything when it comes to a whole curve, the curva in Italian football, that can house a couple of thousand fans, how can I address the situation alone? If a government, if a state, if the National Football Association is either unable to, or perhaps unwilling, because today with the kind of technology we have, If you have set up security cameras instead of the stadium, 

Christos Kassimeris 41:23

as the regulations say, and it's a security camera that is not there for the sake of being there, it's a fully equipped security camera that you can get the material from it and start looking. Well, I can see someone. 

Christos Kassimeris 41:37

What is this name? Can we identify him? Yes, it's Guy Burton. Who's that guy next to him? Francesco Belcastro. Who's the other guy? Christos Kassimeris. Here we have three racist offenders. Brings him before a court to sentence them. 

Christos Kassimeris 41:50

You can find the culprits. Yeah. Are they unwilling? Because like I said, don't forget that football is part of an entertainment business anywhere in the world that generates billions. FIFA alone from the last World Cup generated something close to $8 billion. 

Christos Kassimeris 42:13

That is, of course, rechanneled back to national associations and developing the game in less developed countries. So promoting women's football. But ultimately, do we wish to blemish the product that we are selling and say that there is a racist dimension? 

Christos Kassimeris 42:31

Be careful of that. It's offensive. Don't watch it. Then your heads away while you hear all this racist chanting during the time you watch a football match. Later on, we'll put an extra label about sexism. 

Christos Kassimeris 42:45

And later on, another one about homophobia. What's left of the beautiful game that we sell it to billions of customers all over the world? 

Francesco Belcastro 42:55

This idea of political will is so important because we have cases. 

Francesco Belcastro 42:58

You mentioned the idea of hooliganism earlier that was solved quite quickly when it became evident that it was tarnishing the product. So perhaps it is, unfortunately, a money related matter in this case. 

Francesco Belcastro 43:13

I'm conscious of time. We have kept you for quite long. But I was wanting to ask you a last question, perhaps on. online racism and the relationship between racism and the digital world. Obviously, not a new phenomenon, but it seems that interactions among fans, even with players, happen more and more at online level. 

Francesco Belcastro 43:39

Would you say that online racism is different from previous forms of discrimination? And is it perhaps harder to fight against other measures being taken? We remember a recent campaign against online hate with some high -profile players. 

Francesco Belcastro 43:59

What's the situation there? 

Christos Kassimeris 44:01

Well, if you allow me to correct you, it is a new phenomenon, not simply because social media is new. Relatively speaking, last year or the year before, but compared to the kind of phenomenon we've been discussing so far, that is relatively new. 

Francesco Belcastro 44:18

Point taken. 

Christos Kassimeris 44:19

That kind of justifies the lack of response from the companies that are behind all social media. And only recently they have been in a position to design the necessary software that will pick up post of Christos that contains racist abuse directed to not necessarily just a football player but just about anyone and take it down. 

Christos Kassimeris 44:46

How soon does it take it down? Is it a few seconds after I've posted? Is it a few minutes? Is it a few hours? That of course changes the situation completely. Again, I would use the words anonymity because it's not Christos Kassimeris from his official account posting and directing racist abuse to a black player. 

Christos Kassimeris 45:12

We have a serious issue here. There are many NGOs and even governments saying, Okay, Christos, do you want to have a Gmail account? Do you want to have a this account, a that account, an Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, whatever. 

Christos Kassimeris 45:26

You are above the age of 18. You have some official government papers, a identification number or anything. You will use that to set up your account. So at all times we know who you are and what you're posting. 

Christos Kassimeris 45:41

That would be an easy solution. That unfortunately touches upon other things about free speech and democracy. So whether we like it or not, we're gonna keep having two and three and four accounts for the very same person. 

Christos Kassimeris 45:56

The one is the official Christos Kassimeris account, that he's a nice person posting flowers and writing about poems. The other two or three accounts that Christos has is racist accounts, talking and promoting extreme rights ideologies, fascist ideology, Nazi ideology, the supremacy of the whites. 

Christos Kassimeris 46:17

How can you control that Christos who only needs a keyboard or a smartphone anywhere in the world to write anything he likes about anything he likes? Think about the events in England last summer, last August. 

Christos Kassimeris 46:30

How they were spiraled and get out of everyone's control simply because of some people that are in a position to direct others after having first manipulated certain data, certain facts to present a story in a completely different way. 

Christos Kassimeris 46:50

So you have FIFA coming out after the last World Cup and saying we managed to block this many hundreds of racist comments but how many others were unfiltered and still reached their final destination and obviously abused a particular player. 

Christos Kassimeris 47:09

It's is it in our subconscious, is it in our DNA that needs to abuse people. I mean, if you think about it, up to the 70s and 80s, coaches back then had their own stereotypical ideas about how I'm going to use different players, depending on the formation on the pitch, on the wings where you need supposedly players with speed, you had to have black players. 

Christos Kassimeris 47:36

They have stamina, they have speed. That was the rationale back then. But because we've said earlier for many different wrong reasons, they lacked mentality, they lacked the intelligence for other more crucial positions. 

Christos Kassimeris 47:50

I'm not going to put them in the center of my midfield. In the center of my midfield, I need someone who's creative, someone who can use his mind to either create chances for my team or block the other team for creating any from my own. 

Christos Kassimeris 48:05

That was the mentality of coaches back then. And if you looked at different kinds of the big clubs, the formations that we're using and the color of the players occupying those positions, you will be surprised how many black players were occupying players' positions on the wings. 

Francesco Belcastro 48:23

It's really, really interesting. Can I just say we had a great episode last year with Paul Campbel of the University of Leicester, that looked exactly at what you were saying, but from the point of view more of sort of education. 

Francesco Belcastro 48:36

But really, these trends that you mentioned of sort of, you know, stereotypes about football players are present from a very young age for like from the under 12 teams and continue. And as you said, they kind of still shape the way that we talk about football very much. Guy, sorry. 

Guy Burton 48:53

No, no, no, I was actually going to flag that up because as Christos was talking, it reminded me of, you know, some of the media representation that Paul Campbell talked to us about, about the language that was used when describing certain players versus other players. 

Guy Burton 49:06

And so it still is with us, even, you know, it's not really dated. I mean, it still continues. I guess the last thing we wanted to ask him is, you know, a number of things. First of all, if anything he's currently working on. 

Guy Burton 49:18

Secondly as well, I mean, you know, but where are we going in terms of racism? I think, for me at least, this conversation that we're having is at least, you know, getting out, getting it discussed. But is that sort of the way forward to raise awareness, really? 

Christos Kassimeris 49:34

Well, to answer your first question, I don't have any concrete plans to publish in something in particular. I'm working on different things. One thing that is not worthy is that my university and myself, we are part of a European funded project called BRISWA, B -R -I -S -W -A, that is funded by Erasmus Plus. 

Christos Kassimeris 50:00

It involves universities from Cyprus, Greece, Spain and Italy. And the subject of this project is how do you tackle racism in football by employing education. starting by creating perhaps the necessary curriculum at a university that can be taught to students, students related to sports management degrees or sports science degrees, people that will have an important post, an important position in sports later on. 

Christos Kassimeris 50:32

Perhaps through them we could channel the necessary information to themselves, educates their players and fans and so on. Education could be a key instrument here, but to educate people it will take time. 

Christos Kassimeris 50:49

It's not a drastic solution that perhaps you needed a few years back, not today, not tomorrow. It's something that should have been resolved. Like I said, on the other hand, football is just an outlet of racism. 

Christos Kassimeris 51:03

It's not the sport itself per se that generates this kind of emotions and racist feelings among fans. Some may even say that I'm only picking on a black player because I'm using external characteristics. 

Christos Kassimeris 51:20

I call one short or tall or fat and thin, just like I call someone white and black. Calling someone white for many different obvious reasons is not taken as an offense. Calling someone black is nowadays in terms of political correctness, certainly an offensive remark. 

Christos Kassimeris 51:42

So you need to be careful on how much you want to and how you're going to be dealing with racism and what kind of racism are you talking about. In some cases you may have overt racism that takes us back to certain extreme right parties. 

Christos Kassimeris 52:00

They have an agenda and they have the representatives on the terraces in a stadium to recruit new members and to promote their ideology. There are instances where of course if player that has been abused doesn't necessarily need to leave the pitch like Samuel Eto'o did more than 10 years. 

Christos Kassimeris 52:27

It was 2005 or 2006 when Barcelona was playing away to either Villa Real or Valladolid, one of the two teams starting with Villa. I can't remember which one. That is actually what prompted the European parliaments to pass legislation about racism in sport and more peculiarly or particularly in football. 

Christos Kassimeris 52:48

So in that particular case it took a high profile player from a high profile club for something to happen in European Union politics. And then you have other kind of reactions that give us a different version of what can be done. 

Christos Kassimeris 53:04

You have Dani Alves being thrown also of Barcelona at the time. Being thrown a banana. It's you have to watch that if you don't remember the incident watch it on YouTube He's trying to take a corner. 

Christos Kassimeris 53:19

A fan is throwing a banana that lands one or two meters away from his feet He doesn't lose temper. He doesn't lose control He bends over takes the banana peel it off and eat it took the corner and the game continued as normal. That is a huge message. 

Christos Kassimeris 53:41

I ignore the racists. But ignoring the racists is not an option. You have to do something. Ejecting them from the stadium is not an option either. They're going to be replaced by others. So you need to do something society -wide. Education is one issue, but you also have legislation that is there to help to both help victims of racial abuse, to reports to police authorities whether you've been a victim of racist abuse and how you deal with racial abuses. 

Christos Kassimeris 54:14

If this legislation is put into force, that may change the situation slightly. But I don't think that we will be able to eliminate this kind of phenomena, or sexism or homophobia for that matter, from football It's part of society in football. You can be a nobody among many other nobodies, the tens of thousands that occupy the terraces in a stadium. We can say anything you like. 

Christos Kassimeris 54:40

Out in the streets, you wouldn't abuse someone racially or sexually or religiously or any kind of form of discrimination. You will have to be the nice person the law abiding citizen that you want everyone else to think of you.

Francesco Belcastro 54:58

At this point of football as an expression of societal trends, it's so important It's a great note to end the podcast on. Christos, thank you very much for your time. We would have many many more questions. So perhaps we'll ask you to come back to talk about about the other part of your research, politics of football in the future. 

Francesco Belcastro 55:17

Guy, do we need to remind a few things to our listeners? 

Guy Burton 55:20

Yeah, I mean, first of all, thank you so much, Christos, for coming in and sort of providing such a thoughtful discussion about the issue of racism in football and what's happening and what we can do. 

Guy Burton 55:31

But yeah, just to sort of let listeners know that we really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us and of course, we would really welcome it if you would consider reviewing and sharing the episodes that we do with other people, with your friends, with your family, and also consider subscribing to future episodes and also get in touch with us because we like to hear from you and when people get in touch, 

Guy Burton 55:56

they sometimes suggest episodes that we can work on and where can they find us, Francesco? 

Francesco Belcastro 56:00

Well, we are on Blue Sky, we are on X Twitter, we got an email which is football... footpolpodcast...

Guy Burton 56:07

footballpodcast at gmail.com. 

Francesco Belcastro 56:11

I never remember that. And then we can be fine individually. They can find us on LinkedIn or on our work emails or there are many ways of getting in touch with us and we want to hear from listeners. And then the final thing is we're going to be back next Monday. 

Guy Burton 56:26

Monday. Yup.

Francesco Belcastro 56:27

Yeah. So all that's left is to thank Christos for the fantastic episode and for his time. And thank you very much, Christos. 

Guy Burton 56:34

Yeah. Thank you, Christos. 

Christos Kassimeris 56:35

Thank you for the invitation and the opportunity to share my work with you guys and the audience. Thank you very much. 

Guy Burton 56:41

Our pleasure. Thank you. And I'll see you again next Monday then, Francesco. 

Francesco Belcastro 56:44

Thank you. Thanks. 

Guy Burton 56:45

Okay. Bye.