What is e-football and how is it political? ft. Tsubasa Shinohara

In this episode, Guy and Francesco tackle the world of e-football—a digital space where traditional sports and gaming intersect, creating unique political and economic challenges. To help them unpack this growing phenomenon, they’re joined by Tsukuba University’s Tsubasa Shinohara. Together, they explore how e-football is more than just a virtual kickabout; it’s a rapidly expanding industry with complex implications for players' image rights, gamer labor conditions, and regulation. As they explore this frontier, Tsubasa answers the questions and challenges that lie at the intersection of sports, technology, and law.

Transcript

What is e-football and how is it political? ft. Tsubasa Shinohara

Guy Burton 00:08

Hello and welcome to another edition of the FootPol Podcast, where football meets politics. I'm one of your co-hosts, Guy Burton, and I'm joined by my other co-host, Francesco Belcastro. Francesco, how are you doing? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:18

I'm all right, Guy. How are you? 

Guy Burton 00:20

Yeah, not too bad today. I'm doing quite well. Do you know what we're talking about today? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:25

Yeah, as someone who plays video games, or used to play video games at the time, I'm quite excited about today's episode because it brings together three things that I really have a lot of time for, football, politics and video games. 

Guy Burton 00:39

Yeah, I mean, I didn't even know that you did video games, but okay, it sheds a whole new light... 

Francesco Belcastro 00:43

Yeah, I'm a big Football Manager fan, and I do some play online sometimes as well. 

Guy Burton 00:47

Okay, well, what's been your most successful run then? 

Guy Burton 00:51

Have you taken a team from the bottom of the West? 

Francesco Belcastro 00:54

Well, I don't like to brag, but for listeners who have watched the In-Betweeners will remember the bragging of taking Woking into Champions League in six years or something like that. So I'm that good!

Guy Burton 01:07

Okay, well, I mean, this is all goes straight over my head. So this is actually a really useful episode for me because I'm going to learn something, a lot of new stuff for me, which I know very little about. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:17

So I've got to say our episode has got a more stimulating topic than my, my...

Guy Burton 01:21

Your Championship Manager. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:24

...Championship. Yeah, it's way more politically relevant! 

Guy Burton 01:27

Yes.

Francesco Belcastro 01:27

 And more interesting. And we've got an excellent guest as well. 

Guy Burton 01:30

Yes, absolutely. And we're joined today by Tsubasa Shunohara, who is an Assistant Professor over at the University of Tsukuba in Japan. He's with the Institute of Humanities and Social Sciences there. And he's also a paralegal at the field, our law offices in Tokyo. 

Guy Burton 01:45

And prior to that, quite recently, he obtained his PhD in law and has a master's of law from the University of Lausanne in Switzerland. And his main research interest is in international human rights law with a particular reference to sports and human rights. 

Guy Burton 02:00

He's a human rights officer as well at the Swiss Esports Federation. Tsubasa, welcome to the show and thank you for joining us. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 02:07

Thank you so much. 

Guy Burton 02:09

Well, great. And listen, before we sort of dive into all of this, because as we've discussed, I know very little about esports and football, but you are a football fan, I take it you follow a team of sorts or not? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 02:25

But unfortunately, I don't follow the football, but I know a little bit, you know, the football clubs in their real life, but it's there because I'm a tennis player, so that's why I know the tennis. Anyway. 

Guy Burton 02:38

Yeah. I know Francesco is looking very pleased because of course, you know, one of the top players in the world is Italian right now, right? 

Francesco Belcastro 02:46

Yes, yes, yes. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 02:47

Sinner.

Francesco Belcastro 02:48

Yes, yes. I know you've got mixed feelings about the guy because he's been spanking your boys for a while, so, you know, I'm feeling great. 

Guy Burton 02:57

Yeah, anyway, I mean, look, he's a good player to watch. I enjoy it. I enjoy it. I'm also a bit of a tennis player as well. Not particularly good, but you know, I enjoy it. But listen, you've so great. 

Guy Burton 03:07

Well, thank you so much for joining us. I mean, we just gave the listeners a bit of an overview of, you know, who you are and your background, you know, particularly the legal dimension. But can we talk a bit about e-sports and e-football more generally, you know, more generally? 

Guy Burton 03:21

And what is it? And how did it begin? And why does it matter? So, you know, Francesco has alluded to the fact that he's played football manager in video games. Can you tell us a little bit more than that? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 03:33

So, yeah, yeah, that is a very good question, because the fall in general is a little tough to understand what is e-sports, because e-sports, like video games, but a little bit different from the video games as well, because there is the competitiveness of the video games. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 03:49

So it means that we have to compete against other players. So try to imagine that in that situation. So if we play the games, I mean, the video games alone, is there the competitiveness within this video games? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 04:05

If we play against others just for the fun, is there the competitiveness? So it means that we have to have the match if we have to have competition. So that's why e-sports publisher, I mean, the companies organize e-sports events, e-sports tournaments in order to decide a champion. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 04:24

So it becomes, you know, e-sports becomes really popular after organizing the tournaments. So that's why now e-sports means if there is tournaments with the video game titles, it means that there is e-sports. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 04:38

That is my understanding. I'm very sure that there are so many, you know, arguments from the school. So that's why we cannot define, you know, what is e-sports. But for me, it's much easier to understand what the e-sports is. 

Francesco Belcastro 04:52

Great. I want to ask you, so for people that watch football, there's been an explosion in the visibility of esports. It seems like they explained that they are used for popularity by clubs. I mean, you often see even like a football club signing e-players, you know, their big Twitter announcement, the X announcement or whatever the X announcement is. 

Francesco Belcastro 05:20

Can you tell us a bit in terms of to what extent they're being exploited for popularity, always exploring them, and what are the main players? I don't know, countries, clubs, who is behind this? What are the big players? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 05:38

So within the e-football? 

Francesco Belcastro 05:40

Yes. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 05:41

Okay, so at first we have to understand what is e-football, because e-football means it's based on the football games. So as you say, Football Manager, there they are in the football players behind. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 05:56

so just for the football management games. So we cannot connect with the real footballers with the console and also the controller. So that's why it's so e-football means it's like the football game produced by the EA Sports, [?] Sports, and also Konami. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 06:14

And then now Football Manager joined it because FIFA choose it. So and then afterwards EA Sports terminated contract with the EA Sports. No, EA Sports terminated contract with the FIFA and then they created their own tournaments. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 06:30

That is the e-football. We have to understand the e-football. And then afterwards now Konami and EA Sports have the you know the big discussion with the FIFA and FIFPRO. FIFPRO is the footballers association union and then they negotiated with them. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 06:46

So that's why you know that is the behind of the players and games. And then if that player is really famous it's possible to generate much more money. That is the you know that is the full history of the video game, the relations between video games and also video football. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:05

So basically big companies, big video game companies have entered this market let's say. They have some sort of degree of control over e-football would you say. But then at some point you know football clubs or other people who found out the potential that is had in terms of marketing. 

Francesco Belcastro 07:25

I mean what is that is in it for I don't know a football club like, I don't know, Juventus or Man United or Real Madrid to put some money on you know on e-players let's say. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 07:38

So at first the image rights that is very important in order to understand this topic because image rights belong to the players, not clubs, not the others. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 07:49

But FIFA also produced but normally he who collected all of the image rights from the players and the they manage it, and then they can represent players in order to negotiate with the companies and also clubs in order to use their rights. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 08:05

That is the behind. That is in real sport as well. The clubs cannot do it, but the club have to negotiate with the players and then players have to decide themselves how they sell their image rights in order to earn the money. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 08:18

But they cannot do it because that is really technical legal knowledge. So that's why FIFPRO represents their interest in order to get their interest. It's like it's completely different from the baseball. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 08:31

Baseball also has the same history in the United States. In Japan it's different, but the United States has the same history. The MLB Players Association. Players unions have represented their interest in order to negotiate licensing agreements. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 08:46

So that is the basic understanding. So that's why players always prepare first. And then the club negotiate with the players and then decide the money. So that's why, and then now we can sell the product with their image in the T-shirts, some others. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 09:06

So that's why they know the potential, you know, at the sell, you know. 

Francesco Belcastro 09:09

Can I ask you one thing? So let's just for us, we're not very technological. Let's say that Guy buys Aldershot Town and he buys Messi at the end of his career. 

Francesco Belcastro 09:19

Does that mean that in the contract that guy will get Lionel Messi to sign, there'll be a clause, a provision that says, okay, this is the deal between the club and Messi and whatever profit comes out of it is divided in a certain way. 

Francesco Belcastro 09:32

Is that how it works? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 09:35

That question is very specific. So I don't know lady, you know, exactly the content of the contract because I cannot get into it. But I think that the club players and the FIFPRO and the FIFA also behind, they have to have the, you know, negotiations of the contract. 

Francesco Belcastro 09:53

Okay, okay. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 09:54

And after their careers they, then, Lionel Messi has the huge popularity. So it means that it's possible to connect with the market, you know, values. So that's why they ask the players in order to use his image right and then tries to put the club marks or the other marks or the other things, it's necessary to negotiate. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 10:17

They're always negotiating important, you know, that to use the image rights. So it's really tough question for me. 

Francesco Belcastro 10:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we get the sense of how it works. I know there'll be different agreements, but just for us to understand the dynamic. 

Francesco Belcastro 10:33

Guy, please, you know, you want to buy a club, so. 

Guy Burton 10:36

Well, you know, I'm still, you know, I feel like such a dad listening to this because it's so over my head. But well, there's a couple of things here. 

Guy Burton 10:44

First, the first thing I just wanted to say is that, you know, you referenced FIFAPRO, which is obviously the, you know, the footballers players union. And we actually spoke to them back in, you know. 

Guy Burton 10:56

back at the start of the year didn't we Francesco? We did an episode with them where we talked so both about you know the men's and the women's game, so if you're interested in knowing a little bit more about that then please do go back to that episode.

Guy Burton 11:07

But no the question you alluded in your answer Tsubasa to baseball as well and this kind of got me thinking a little bit which is you mentioned e-sports and then e-football and now of course e-baseball.

Guy Burton 11:19

I mean where does e-football sit in relation to other sports is it the biggest market for video games out there or is it a smaller one that's growing which... Who is the biggest one I mean you know what what size are we talking about and is there are there certain parts of the world where e-football is more popular and bigger than than elsewhere.

Tsubasa Shinohara 11:40

That is also very good questions because we have the three categories of e-sports first is that the sports simulation games. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 11:49

So including the e-baseball, some others, that is complete simulation of sports. And second category, that is... The BER sports, BER video games. So we have that special equipment, BER virtual reality, and then we play it. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 12:13

And also we have to have the special equipment to connect with the computer. For instance, e-biking. E-bike is not like, you know, the e-football because we never use keyboard and also the PC. We have to use another device, so that's why there is the second category. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 12:34

And the third category, traditional e-sports title, including League of Legends, Dota 2, Rocket 3, Rocket League. Now it's possible to connect with the e-football as well, because FIFA chooses the Rocket League, the car-based video games with the football, to hold the competitions from 2024. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 12:58

So these are the traditional e-sports titles. The traditional e-sports titles have much more bigger markets, so they are really famous. So that's why Renai [?] also wants to include them. But there is a problem, because they always kill other people, because that is [?]. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 13:17

So that is a problem. So the most strongest market is traditional e-sports titles, not e-sports simulation games. But sports simulation games are also very popular because the real football is connected with the e-football market as well. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 13:36

So that is my answer in this question. 

Francesco Belcastro 13:41

Would you say that in terms of countries of the world, are there places that you'd say have got a stronger e-sports culture and somewhere perhaps that perhaps are a bit behind or always newer you said that we can draw this difference or not necessarily? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 14:01

So it depends on the country. Yeah it's completely, because as you know South Korea is very famous for the e-sports because the country I mean the state governments supported e-sports as the national market, national economic market. So that's why it's possible to be a very big market and Japan is totally different. The Japanese com- the Japanese government think that the e-sports market is very important, but because of the law, we cannot push directly. So that's why but, but, on the other hand we have the deep rooted video game culture. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 14:42

That's why we have lots of video game gamers. That's why it's very easy. United States also, already know how to generate the money. That's why they already invented so many competitions. In Europe as well, some countries already have, especially in Germany, ESL Game is based in Cologne. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 15:03

They organize a lot of competitions as well. Now ESL gaming is matched with the [?] groups in the United Kingdom. That's why they also can organize some of the events there. It's really big. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 15:18

If there are competitions in that country, normally these countries have so many in the population who are the gamers. On the other hand, in Africa or some others, I don't know very much because I'm a legal scholar, but I'm really sure that there are not so many players. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:34

Yeah. Okay. It's very interesting. Sorry, Guy, go ahead. 

Guy Burton 15:39

Well, I was just going to ask about these competitions and these events you talk about because you've referenced, of course, the gamers, right? 

Guy Burton 15:46

You've got someone like Francesco who's a casual gamer, but then I assume that there are gamers out there who are taking part in these events who are maybe semi-professional, professional? Are there implications as well for them in terms of labor rights and what have you? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 16:05

So it depends on the contract. If they have the contract with the esports team, normally in Europe it's going to be qualified as the employment contract under the European labor law. So that's why it's possible to say they are professional because they earn the money from the esports professional activity. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 16:27

But on the other hand, if they cannot earn any money from the esports, they cannot be qualified as professional as well. It's not that much. But in Japan, we will have the presentation next month in the Esports Research Network 2024, concerning how to analyze the esports professional players and the Japanese labor law. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 16:53

And then there will be concluded that it's really tough for the esports teams to give the employment status for esports players because the employer has to compensate all social security fees. It's going to be the worst of course. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 17:09

So that's why we have to say sometimes we have to, because if employers have a lot of money, we need to say these esports players should be like employees or workers in order to support them. But if so, they are professional, right? 

Guy Burton 17:27

And can I also just jump in here? Sorry, so just also just on that, because Francesco alluded to some of the football, your famous football clubs, these guys have a division of e-sport teams, right? But is it just the football clubs themselves? 

Guy Burton 17:40

Or are there other e-football teams out there that are not necessarily organized by the football clubs themselves? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 17:48

So what does it mean? Please specify it for me. 

Guy Burton 17:51

Well, I mean, I know that, for example, there are football teams out there, football clubs that do have, you know, like Francesco is alluding to, they hire, they hire or they promote or launch, you know, their contract signing of a gamer. 

Guy Burton 18:03

So they have they have them obviously sort of representing their club. But I mean, is it is it just sole... I mean, when these at these events and these competitions you're talking about, is it, you know, football clubs with their gamers playing each other? 

Guy Burton 18:16

Or are there other non, you know, teams that come from non football clubs? And I know, Francesco is looking... 

Francesco Belcastro 18:22

Like independent or or yeah. 

Guy Burton 18:25

Yeah. And so I mean, how is it mainly dominated by the football clubs or like, say, non- more independent teams are out there as well? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 18:35

So you may... From my understanding for your questions, I think that the employers will be the football clubs. But I can't that's football club is not like the e-sports teams employers. So that is going to be really difficult normally, because because the e-sports players can transition to the other e-sports titles. So...

Francesco Belcastro 18:57

Okay. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 18:58

So if they ban because of the code of, you know, violation of the code of contract, conduct, they can transfer to the other games, because we use keyboard and mouse and also in the computer, it's completely same. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 19:13

But they're just that they change the titles of the e-sports. So that's why we cannot define is e-football club will be the employers or will be the chef of their e-sports teams. So they can say, yeah, if you are professional for the e-football, you know, they can they can join in the commandments and then they can win. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 19:34

It's like that. 

Francesco Belcastro 19:35

That's very interesting. Because I guess from the point of view of market regulation, it creates a lot of interesting questions. So I assume it's a very international environment, right, at elite level of the sport. 

Francesco Belcastro 19:48

You'll have people from different countries going and play around in different tournaments. But then because as you said, it's such a big business, you also have from the point of view of nation states, of states that the attempts to regulate this market domestically and to perhaps tax it or... 

Francesco Belcastro 20:07

So is there any contrast there, would you say, in this sense, between the sort of global international dimension of it and state's dimension, state control? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 20:16

So at first, at the state levels, we have the different legislation. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 20:20

So that's why the different, national legislation applies to each esports in a situation. So that's why it's going to be really different in each state. And the international dimension, we don't have enough research source. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 20:37

So that's why I try to do it from the international law perspective. So it's, it's going to be a really important thing because we don't know how to apply the international law, international legislation to this, you know, market. 

Francesco Belcastro 20:51

Okay. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 20:52

So we normally, they are normally, the esports publishers are normally video game publishers. So, so if he tries to research on the video game companies and national legislation, international law, we can know how to apply it. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 21:08

But just that there is that different aspect that it is the competition that is. 

Guy Burton 21:12

Yeah. I mean, can I ask about FIFA, for example, because you mentioned them as being involved in, in sort of, you know, linking up with at least one of the video game companies. 

Guy Burton 21:25

But, you know, we think of FIFA as kind of the, the world governing body and regulator of football. They have no involvement in this, in this, in this side of things at all?

Tsubasa Shinohara 21:34

So that is also a very good question because in the individual, in the esports society, especially in the esports society, we have so many, you know, governing actors. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 21:44

So we cannot decide who is the, the unified, the governing body. So FIFA has no any power because FIFA has to have the license and contract with the esports publisher and then the esports publisher can decide to terminate their contract. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 22:01

So that's why EA Sports terminate contract with FIFA. And then they decided to organize their own competition from 2024. And then now the other company are interested to join the FIFA market because FIFA is like brand name in order to sell their products. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 22:22

So that's why 2024 Football Manager becomes FIFA E-World Cup titles, and also the look at [?] sport. So that's why it's like FIFA, it's like, you know, the collaborators. It's not a unified governing body. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 22:39

So each e-sports publishers have the power to regulate their own, you know, markets. 

Francesco Belcastro 22:48

So FIFA is basically with EA Sports before and with other companies now, essentially selling its name because of the brand and how much prestige it brings. 

Francesco Belcastro 23:00

So everybody remembers, you know, FIFA 19, FIFA 20. FIFA is essentially the brand, it's FIFA, but in this case, that's, you know, it's like if FootPol uses Guy Burton's name, because he's a great researcher and a great academic, you know, that's for our prestige. 

Francesco Belcastro 23:21

That's basically what it means, right? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 23:23

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So that's why, you know, in order to compete against FIFA and EA Sports collaboration, Konami has a lot of, you know, efforts, you know, to survive in this market. 

Francesco Belcastro 23:35

Okay. Because for a very long time, the big players were, even before a games, there were sort of, Revolution Soccer, which is Konami, and FIFA, which is EA Sport up to a couple of years ago. So EA Sport had a kind of comparative advantage of being, of using the FIFA name, let's put it this way. 

Francesco Belcastro 23:52

And I assume it's very expensive, right? I don't think people sell it for... 

Tsubasa Shinohara 23:55

I don't know how much exactly, because I cannot ask to them how much they did! It's really tough to, you know, to ask them directly. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 24:04

But I want to add one thing, Konami had a partnership with the International Esports Federation. So that's why they can organize their own events within the IESF World Championship. 

Francesco Belcastro 24:20

So there is a lot of politics as well. Well, it's among big companies. That's very interesting. 

Guy Burton 24:27

But also, I mean, it gets me thinking as well, because I mean, presumably, because you were saying about... If FIFA don't have, you know, a governing or regulating role in all of this, when some of the stuff that we talked a little bit about before, in terms of, you know, labour rights and protection for gamers, particularly those who are employed in this in this field, where is the best practice or, you know, best governing advice coming from? It's solely down at a national level, is it? And so if there's any kind of gamer involvement, it's at that national level. 

Francesco Belcastro 25:03

Sorry, Guy, could you clarify what do you mean? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 25:06

So first thing, I have to correct one thing, because FIFA has also the governing power over their own competitions, because they organize their own competitions, FIFA E World Cup or FIFA V, blah, blah, blah, so they can, you know, they control their own competition. They cannot control other competitions. So that is that is one thing. It's a very important thing. 

Guy Burton 25:31

Yeah. Now, I mean, I think what I was trying to talk about in terms of labor rights and protection, Francesco, was the gamers, as opposed to the football players. 

Guy Burton 25:38

So you've got the football player... We talked a little bit about the football players and their image rights. But now I'm talking about the gamers who actually take part in these these events and these competitions. 

Guy Burton 25:47

There doesn't seem to be any kind of overarching governing body for them or in terms of, you know, their labor rights and protection, best practice. So it's done at a national level, right? So if gamers want to make an improvement in their working conditions, they have to do it at a national level. Is that how it works? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 26:06

At this moment, we never I never heard about the systems in order to guarantee the players, esports players, participations. So that is going to be really difficult questions. And then now there's so many people who tries to make struggle to create such a system. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 26:30

But I don't know. I don't know clarify this topic. But that is also connected with my topic human rights and the esports players. But so that's why I try to connect with the human rights treaties in order to say there is also minimum guarantee for the esports players to be protected against toxic, you know, the negative or unreasonable situation for the esports players. 

Francesco Belcastro 27:04

I mean, it looks like from what you're telling us that the players need a trade union. It sounds it sounds like to me. Maybe I'm biased!

Guy Burton 27:14

 It can't be FIFPRO?

Tsubasa Shinohara 27:17

You mean, you meant the trade union. You mean the labor union? 

Francesco Belcastro 27:22

A labor union. It seems like what they need is it's a labor union. But I mean, maybe I am biased in that sense. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 27:28

There is also the discussion in order to create a labor union. 

Francesco Belcastro 27:32

Okay. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 27:32

That is also a very important thing. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 27:35

But how can we do? 

Francesco Belcastro 27:38

Yeah, it's not easy at all. Yeah. Sorry Guy? 

Guy Burton 27:41

No, no, no. So there's something that I remember seeing a number of years ago. And I don't think I don't know if it applies in football, which is our main interest here. 

Guy Burton 27:53

But you know, Tsubasa, maybe you can clarify this to me. I know that that because esports or video games are such big business, you have almost like a secondary market or a secondary level of gamers who are you know, bumping people... Or doing sort of the grind of winning points and winning value in whatever game it is, and then selling that product, that entity to someone in a richer world country. 

Guy Burton 28:27

And I think this was about exploitation of people in really the global south in the developing world by, you know, using their, using their sort of their time for this, does something similar happen in football? 

Guy Burton 28:43

I mean, do we see, you know, particular groups of people being exploited in? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 28:52

Yeah, that is also a very good question, but unfortunately, I didn't know because I never heard about it, because, because normally, we can use, we have to use electric device at first. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 29:08

And then afterwards, I cannot imagine what's happened, you know, in the in the global side- South, because I have, I never been there. And then I, I normally never discuss with the South, global South people who are playing in the esports, but I also can be connected because I but I think that there are so many population as well. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 29:31

But I have to do the research as well. But so it means that within the e-sport society, I think that we need the researchers. There's so many questions here, but I'm only one person and I'm also a legal scholar. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 29:46

So we can we can answer to you concerning the legal questions or you know, how to manage some others. But the sociological question is going to be very tough for me. 

Francesco Belcastro 29:57

Yeah, in itself, the fact that there's so much things that are not research, it means it's a field that must have doubled very quickly, right? 

Francesco Belcastro 30:04

You know, the research is not caught up with it yet, which is it's, it's very interesting. So I want to ask, as we as we get towards the end of our chat, is there any are there any developments in this sort of esports or a football world that we've not mentioned, and the listeners should be aware of, either because of their commercial impact or their political impact, people like me and Guy that that don't know much about this world? 

Francesco Belcastro 30:35

Is there something else we should we should know as with the listeners? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 30:39

Okay, so for the listeners, I say in order to understand the esports markets, from my perspective, because there's so many researchers who say anything they want as well. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 30:49

So that's why we have to say like this, but I think they need to see how the esports publisher move to the,,, at the international in a dimension because some years later, probably some company merged together with another company. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 31:06

and then they create another esports market and then esports competitions and then some company you know suddenly developed and then they created their own you know really good esports games.

Francesco Belcastro 31:17

Okay.

Tsubasa Shinohara 31:17

They're gonna be dominated in the in that society because we cannot anticipate before that FACEIT group and ESL Gaming, ESL Gaming that is league organizer and then Dream Hack that is also very famous for the league organizer merged together after election.

Tsubasa Shinohara 31:35

 okay so okay so they are so we have to understand how to you know uh how they organize events how we can apply the legal rules and the [?]. It's totally changed because before ESL Gaming is based in Cologne only. But now it's the [?] international one. 

Francesco Belcastro 31:57

So it's very fluid in this sense. There is new players coming in and that makes a difference in terms of the market. Sorry Guy, I see you nodding. Will you want to ask a question? 

Guy Burton 32:07

No, I mean, it's just sort of nodding along to what both of you are saying. 

Guy Burton 32:11

It's just striking to me that this does seem to be, you know, a world or sort of an aspect of football that we, well, we freely admit it: we don't know much about, but it's also the, you know, that there is so many questions being asked and generated and yet, you know, that sort of the field of scholarship, the field of, you know, people like yourself who are working in this are sort of too few and far between to, you know, to really get on top of it. Plus we have, it strikes me as somewhat unregulated as well, no? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 32:45

Yes, that is unregulated. It's completely. So, yeah, that is, so it's really difficult to say that it's the, you know, the whole regulations. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 32:55

So that's why we have to understand each regulations specifically. So for instance, you know, that in order to understand FIFA e-footbal league we need to see each regulations created by their own regulations. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 33:08

That is really difficult for me to follow everything. So, so that is the huge complexity in the e-sports society. 

Francesco Belcastro 33:16

Thank you very much. I think, I think we cry if I love stuff for us. I feel like I've got a bit of a sense now what we're talking about and thank you very much. 

Francesco Belcastro 33:25

Can I ask you one final thing? I don't know if Guy has got another question. You said there is so much stuff to research on and you showed us some of the important areas out there. What are you working on at the moment yourself? 

Francesco Belcastro 33:38

What is your research priority out of all these areas of interest that you mentioned? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 33:42

So for my research priority at this moment, in order to understand the full society of e-sports governance system, because now actually I try to do the e-sports. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 33:54

e-football research. But as I realize that at this moment, there is also e-baseball community. And then they also have different actors and companies exist. So we need to analyze how the self-regulation apply in e-baseball, in e-baseball, in another e-games society. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 34:20

So that is my priority at this moment. If not, we cannot understand from the legal perspective. 

Francesco Belcastro 34:27

Very interesting. One final thing. If Guy and I decide to change careers, do you think we are too old to become e-players? 

Francesco Belcastro 34:35

Or do we still have a chance? Because we cannot make us footballers anymore. 

Guy Burton 34:40

Yeah, because to what extent are the gamers, the serious gamers in the football e-sports world, young? I mean, are we past it? 

Tsubasa Shinohara 34:50

Yeah, normally 20, so now it's going to be 25 or something, some in the 30s also exist, but not so many. Normally, theier careers are very young.

Francesco Belcastro 35:00

Well, then your nickname could be Grandpa Guy. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 35:06

Exactly. Exactly. 

Guy Burton 35:09

Yeah, well, as long as I have it on my back, right? Exactly. With my age, we're not going to talk about it. 

Francesco Belcastro 35:15

You could represent Aldershot Town. It could be a dream come true, Guy!

Guy Burton 35:18

I have to first learn how to play it! 

Francesco Belcastro 35:20

Take on Man City and beat them. 

Guy Burton 35:22

It might be the only way I ever own Aldershot, right? In a game!

Francesco Belcastro 35:27

Yeah, it's a dream of playing for them. 

Guy Burton 35:31

Anyway, listen, Tsubasa, that's been fascinating, a really interesting insight for us. 

Guy Burton 35:35

We really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. And maybe we can have you back if and when we hear something comes up in the world of esports and e-football. We might ask you to pop up and explain what the hell is going on. 

Francesco Belcastro 35:50

It's going to be exactly the kind of email you get from us. Could you please come in and explain to us and listeners what exactly is going on here? Thanks so much. We really learned a lot. It's been a fantastic episode. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:01

Thank you so much. 

Tsubasa Shinohara 36:02

It's my pleasure to invite me, I suppose, and I'm very happy to contribute to your podcast as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:08

Thank you. 

Guy Burton 36:08

Thank you.

Guy Burton 36:09

And, Francesco, what do we need to say before we let the listeners go? 

Francesco Belcastro 36:13

Well, the usual things, Guy. So the first one is that they should keep rating us, liking us, sharing the podcast. Whatever their platform they're getting the content from allows them to do. Some of them will be able to put us five stars out of five. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:30

Some will be alike. Whatever that is, please do it and help us push this podcast, because honestly, we have to hold to become e-gamers. The other thing is that some of the best episodes we had last season were suggested by listeners. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:48

And by guests. actually. So if you got any any idea on topics and people should be chatting to, please get in touch. You can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Twitter X, you can find us on blue sky, LinkedIn, our personal ones. Guy likes me... likes to remind me that I'm not very active in it. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:10

But if you just are writing to us, I'll check it more often. Please, please, please get in touch telling us telling us what we're doing well, what we should be doing, what could be better. 

Guy Burton 37:19

And they can also email us as well. 

Guy Burton 37:21

We have an email account. It's footballpodcast at gmail.com. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:25

Yes, yes, I always forget that one. That's the last one, which I always forget. 

Guy Burton 37:30

Yeah. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:30

And then the last thing is that we are back in like a month something now we're back in our full rhythm. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:38

As days get shorter and colder on a Monday on a cold Monday morning when listeners are having the coffee. The first thing they should do is to listen to our episode and you will be their ray of light, their sunshine in these grey autumn days. 

Francesco Belcastro 37:57

Is that correct? 

Guy Burton 37:58

Yes, that is it. And Francesco, we better go. So thank you and we will talk again next week, yeah?

Francesco Belcastro 38:05

Okay, take care. 

Guy Burton 38:06

Okay, bye. Bye.