FootPol's special: Amsterdam's long night.

Co-hosts Guy and Francesco look at the violent incidents surrounding the Ajax vs. Maccabi Tel Aviv match on November 7 and break down the Amsterdam mayor's council report, which outlines the sequence of events. They explore the different narratives that have emerged to frame the violence, from the initial reaction by mainstream media that painted the Israeli fans as victims, to the gradual emergence of their responsibilities in the fighting. Guy and Francesco also look at why Israeli clubs are playing in European competitions and whether the Israeli FA and its clubs may face an international ban.

The Amsterdam mayor's report is available here.

Transcript

What Happened in Amsterdam?

Francesco Belcastro 00:09

Hello, and welcome to a special episode of FootPol, the podcast where football meets politics. I'm one of your hosts, Dr. Francesco Belcastro, and here with me is my other co-host, Dr. Guy Burton. Hello, Guy, how are you? 

Guy Burton 00:19

Hi, Francesco, I'm doing well. Yourself?

Francesco Belcastro 00:22

I'm good, I'm good. Why is today a special episode, Guy? 

Guy Burton 00:25

Well, I guess because we felt, well, it's special because actually the listeners get to listen to us for a change, I suppose. 

Guy Burton 00:33

But actually more important than, you know, the, the deliverers of the message is more than the message itself, right? I mean, we decided that this week, we want to talk a bit about the Ajax against Maccabi Tel Aviv match and what happened after that. 

Guy Burton 00:51

Well, actually, not just what happened after that, but also before it. And the reason we think it's important is because this is, you know, it's relevant to our subject matter, it is football and politics coming together. 

Guy Burton 01:03

And so we really couldn't not talk about it. And it also kind of ties in with many of the things that we've been looking at in the past, you know, looking at football in Palestine and the impact of the war of Israel's war on Gaza there. 

Guy Burton 01:17

And also the fact that we are scholars of the Middle East, aren't we? So this is a subject that is something we have a professional interest in, but also, you know, we have a personal interest in it as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:29

Yeah, and I guess one of the things that that really convinced us I was that we needed to say something about this, even though there's been a lot of people having their takes on this is that perhaps a useful starting point is to is to expand a bit the conversation. 

Francesco Belcastro 01:46

Yeah. And only talk about what happened in Amsterdam, which is, I think, by now well documented, but why it's why it's important and why it's important to the relationship with important politics or two things that I think we can unpack from this. 

Guy Burton 02:05

Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe we, so I was thinking when we talked about doing this, I thought it might be a good, be a good idea for us first to sort of go over what happened, when it happened, how it was initially reported, and then to take a step back from that and to discuss a little bit about what is underlying all of this, what are sort of some of the underlying themes that we can see in this, as well as where do we go from here, right? 

Francesco Belcastro 02:34

Yeah, so I think like without sort of going too much into the sort of details of what happened, just to remind everyone what we're talking about, we're talking about what happened before and after the European match that took place in Amsterdam between Ajax

Francesco Belcastro 02:54

and Maccabi Tel Aviv. Now listeners will be familiar with Ajax and by now most of them will be familiar as well with Maccabi Tel Aviv. Just a few things to note is that Maccabi sports teams, not only football but basketball, which are present in most main Israeli cities, are very much of an historical component of Israel sports scene and they very much represent, historically represent the sort of, 

Francesco Belcastro 03:30

we say mainstream Zionist tradition, a bit closer to the center right as opposed to to Hapoel's sports societies which are always closer to to the left. So there is obviously this component of sort of domestic politics of Israel. 

Francesco Belcastro 03:51

We'll say perhaps about that as well and it's political to a certain extent is also, I don't know if you define it sectarian or has to do with where people came from and at what point they came to Israel. 

Francesco Belcastro 04:05

So there is this dynamic which is an interesting one I think as to with Maccabi itself. So we didn't, so what happened is that there were, and I think on this there is there is sort of agreement, there was violence between supporters of Maccabi Tel Aviv, is it Maccabi Tel Aviv? 

Francesco Belcastro 04:26

Maccabi Haifa? 

Guy Burton 04:26

No, Maccabi Tel Aviv.

Francesco Belcastro 04:27

Yes Maccabi Tel Aviv, so I'm just blanking here, Maccabi Tel Aviv and locals to put it this way, initially was reported in most of mainstream medias as supporters of the club were attacked by locals and there was particular reference to the Ansterdam Moroccan community. 

Francesco Belcastro 04:57

I think as things developed, it became clear that not only the picture was more complex than that, but in a lot of cases it was that the Maccabi fans they initiated the violence. So I think that's, yeah, go ahead. 

Guy Burton 05:10

Yeah. So can I sort of take you through how it sort of developed and unfolded at my end? So I woke up in the morning to hear the news on the BBC World Service talking about, you know, Maccabi Tel Aviv fans being attacked, you know, the Israeli government saying that they were sending planes to Amsterdam to bring the supporters home. 

Guy Burton 05:28

There was widespread condemnation that these attacks were anti-Semitic, that it was, you know, almost like a pogrom, which of course in a place like Amsterdam is deeply sensitive because so many Jews in Amsterdam were deported and perished during the Holocaust and the Second World War. 

Guy Burton 05:48

During the morning we started to see on social media including Twitter and elsewhere reports that that's something that these that there's some of some I'm not saying all of them, but some of the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were not... were, were somewhat provocative. We can we can come to that later that they were they were there were things that had been unfolding the night before as well as during the day of the game. And this this was initially in social media 

Guy Burton 06:19

Also, I know I noted that the Amsterdam mayor when she did a press conference She pretty much was talking about you know attacks on Maccabi Tel Aviv fans. She was talking about It being the attacks being anti-semitic. 

Guy Burton 06:34

What's interesting is that by Monday, so after the weekend, she had issued a report to the Council of Amsterdam Which is available online and we can link to it as well if people want people want to read it. It's available in English as well as Dutch. And that involved talking to the police and others about what had happened and so- can I take you through it Francesco some some of the points that she she makes in the report? 

Francesco Belcastro 07:01

I mean how long is it gonna take, Guy? 

Guy Burton 07:02

I'm just gonna go very very quickly through it.

Francesco Belcastro 07:04

So I've not actually read it so it's really useful for me and listeners.

Guy Burton 07:09

So they start, I mean there is also a little bit of I mean, this is only sort of an initial report I'm sure there's going to be a much more detailed investigation, but it's marked out that...

Francesco Belcastro 07:17

Can you just clarify again, Guy, for us. So this is, this is a report submitted by the Mayor...

Guy Burton 07:23

The mayor of Amsterdam to the council.

Francesco Belcastro 07:25

To the council. So it's sort of an official document.

Guy Burton 07:28

It is an official document.

Francesco Belcastro 07:29

But she's presenting what happened from her point of view essentially.

Guy Burton 07:32

Well, not just her point of view but in conjunction with talking to the various authority, other authority and police and and others. And they say that the preparation, that's you know, when once they knew that Aja- Ajax is going to be playing Maccabi Tel Aviv, yu know, that preparation started with the police reviewing what the situation was. 

Guy Burton 07:51

The police in Amsterdam had apparently quote contacted Tel Aviv police who are familiar with the club, confirming that Makabi Tel Aviv's following does not have a violent reputation, but includes a fanatical segment. 

Guy Burton 08:02

They concluded that the game was going to be low risk, but they did take some measures to sort of monitor, develop, prepare for things. So on Wednesday and Thursday, police deployed over 1200 officers to manage these potential risks. 

Guy Burton 08:20

And on Wednesday evening, they anticipated the presence of several hundred Maccabi fans in the city. They say the report says, quote, the early evening passed calmly, but various incidents involving different groups occurred during the night from Wednesday to Thursday. 

Guy Burton 08:33

That included aggressive and threatening messages towards Maccabi supporters within, you know, in Amsterdam, but also and also spraying of Palestinian graffiti near the Johan Cruyff Arena. But then Around midnight, disturbances arose at the Rokin. 

Guy Burton 08:49

A group of approximately 50 Maccabi supporters pulled down a Palestinian flag hanging from a building. Some individuals wore face coverings. The group appeared to split, with some heading towards Central Station and Spoi, and others towards the Red Light District shouting slogans. 

Guy Burton 09:03

Some individuals walking along the Rokin removed their belts and used them to attack a taxi. After this, the police reported that some taxi drivers started to mobilize online to meet Israeli supporters. 

Guy Burton 09:17

Near a casino, and they were dispersed. Then we have, during the day on Thursday, prior to the game itself, at one o'clock, at 1300, a large group of Maccabi supporters gathered at Dam Square. This was announced, and the police were prepared. 

Guy Burton 09:32

Opponents approached the gathering, leading to incidents near Dam Square. Skirmishes ensued, with searching and confrontational behavior from both sides. And then later on, after the game, around midnight, a large group of Maccabi supporters were seen walking around Dam Square, some carrying sticks and committing acts of vandalism. 

Guy Burton 09:50

So we've got to be clear that this isn't all Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters, but some. And what they were indulging in was hooliganism, right? 

Francesco Belcastro 09:59

Yeah, this probably leads us to the first point, which is the one of sort of hooliganism and what is different in this case, because it's not the first time that we see supporters of different European clubs rampaging through European cities, and in some cases, 

Francesco Belcastro 10:17

being met by locals who are very happy about their behavior. And this is nothing, I mean, this, we mentioned example, even from Dutch teams, it happened recently with final fans in several European cities, happened with Italian clubs, with English clubs, Turkish. 

Francesco Belcastro 10:33

So it's not, it's not... It's an issue. And obviously, there is a concern, I think about the fact that these are perceived as moments and spaces in which people are allowed to do anything and we have had episodes in the past talking about oligonism and I think that's the first dimension there which perhaps is not as political but I think it's very important. 

Guy Burton 11:02

Yes, I mean within the context and this is the important... This is where it makes it political. That it's happening within a charged political situation right now, which is the Israel war on Gaza and Lebanon right? So you know it is, it's it's hooliganism, but there is a political component to it right and and now the thing is the the the assertions of of anti-semitism. 

Guy Burton 11:25

Now it's very possible that and you know some of those you know attacks were motivated by anti-semitic thought. This brings us to some of the discussion that we had a couple of weeks ago when we talked to Christos Kassimeris, right, about racism in football. 

Guy Burton 11:41

You know anti-semitism is a form of racist racism. It happens he said it's a social problem, it's not a football problem, but it can manifest itself within football through the anonymity that's provided, whether it's in stadia or in large crowds. 

Francesco Belcastro 11:57

Yeah, can I just say that from what has emerged at least, there seems to be very little trace of antisemitism, except a couple of episodes that have circulated online. 

Guy Burton 12:10

Well, if I could continue, so the report then talks about in the investigation and prosecution. 

Guy Burton 12:16

So apparently about in the wake of the fighting, so apparently there was 62, so they say that 62 arrests were made in the afternoon and evening before, during and after the game on charges, including public violence, vandalism and disturbing public order of these individuals, 49 reside in the Netherlands and 10 in Israel. 

Guy Burton 12:41

Later on towards the end of the report, they say in conclusion, and this comes from the mayor, quote, the events of the past days stem from a toxic combination of antisemitism, hooliganism and anger about the conflicts in Palestine and Israel and other countries in the Middle East. 

Guy Burton 12:56

She then concludes by saying, we emphasize that antisemitism cannot be answered with other forms of racism. The safety of one group cannot come at the expense of the safety of another. Jewish Amsterdamers are not safer if Moroccan and Islamic Amsterdamers are less safe and less free. 

Guy Burton 13:12

On the contrary, there is revulsion among Moroccan and Islamic Amsterdamers as well, who now feel that their entire group is being held responsible. And if I can sort of then add to that, what was interesting in the wake of the, as I've mentioned to you, immediately after the reports came out on the Thursday morning, we started to see state- public statements being made by various, you know, key, key important, 

Guy Burton 13:35

you know, leading figures like, you know, Ursula von der Leyen, you know, sort of the Dutch prime minister, who were very much focusing on the antisemitism side of things.

Francesco Belcastro 13:45

David Lammy in the UK as well. 

Guy Burton 13:46

David Lammy and even Justin Trudeau in Canada. Now I think that's that... And of course this sort of you know overlooks you know the the bigger picture which is what we want to bring here, right. So it also sort of fits in with with the narrative which which you know the Israeli government was quite happy to you know to embrace which is that look this is Israelis going about their business and you know being you know being attacked. 

Guy Burton 14:12

That we're not saying all of them, but some of the Maccabi Tel Aviv supporters, were not, you know, innocent bystanders in all of this as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 14:20

I mean they were more than not innocent bystanders they were in many cases it's it's now shown that they were they started some of the confrontations at least. That's very important... 

Guy Burton 14:32

know that's what I'm trying to get at, you know, [to +] make the point that you know it's yes of course many supporters who aren't thuggish or violent got caught up in it but I'm saying that this does not I'm not... 

Guy Burton 14:44

I'm not just- We're not justifying, you know, the actions of one that that the actions of one group justify the actions of another, but it's important to see this in the wider context. I also think

Francesco Belcastro 14:54

Could I also say, like, I mean, again, like, I'm uncomfortable with with the... when labeling some of these antisemitism. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:04

When it's when it's probably more correctly defined as anti-Israelism. Having said that, there were some instances where antisemitism was on display, because, yeah...

Guy Burton 15:17

Could you could actually that be really useful? Could you just expand on that and sort of explain the difference between being anti, you know, anti Semitic and anti Israel? 

Francesco Belcastro 15:24

Yeah, so I mean, I think this, at least in the UK, it's, it's, it's a debate that we are having constantly. 

Francesco Belcastro 15:33

Now, to me, antisemitism is a discrimination based on on race or religion that has got nothing to do with criticism of the state of Israel. 

Guy Burton 15:41

What I think is also really interesting is a sort of the framing, the sort of the narrative, the framing, you know, around this, because as I said to you, you know, the way that this is very, very, it seems very apparent to me that, you know, it almost as the news was starting to come out in the morning after the night before, 

Guy Burton 15:58

you know, different groups were trying to claim, you know, that they're positioning on this. So you had, you know, Israel and its supporters amongst various European leaders, you know, making this very much a conversation that was limited to attacks against Jews, right, and attacks against Israelis. 

Guy Burton 16:14

Whereas what you had on in... the coming out of social media, and including sort of documented, you know, videos, showing that it was, you know, actually, in some of these instances, it was, it was a, it was a reaction, it was to, you know, MaccabiTel Aviv fans' provocation. 

Francesco Belcastro 16:31

Yeah, I guess, I mean, I guess the point around anti-Semitism is that for it to be anti-Semitism, these fans should have been attacked on the basis they were, they were Jewish fans. 

Francesco Belcastro 16:44

Well, if they were attacked because they created trouble or... 

Guy Burton 16:48

Yes, I mean there there... It does say in the report that the police did observe and monitor, you know, some sort of some, some attempts on social media to organize, 

Guy Burton 17:01

you know and and target Jewish and Israeli individuals sort of, on the night...

Francesco Belcastro 17:08

But was there, like, for example was there was any violence against Amsterdam Jewish community which I understand is quite small, but exists. 

Guy Burton 17:15

They are sort of talking more about the attacks on the fans themselves, you know, and certainly there are a couple of instances where I think people were demanding that they show their passports, you know, to say and a taxi driver apparently throwing a Jewish passenger out of the out of the car, 

Guy Burton 17:32

you know that he may or may may or may not be prosecuted So there is some element. I'm not, I'm not saying that this is, you know, that's the, you know, the Amsterdammers get a a sort of.. those who were involved get a completely free pass in all of this, but I think it is worth pointing out that you do have sort of a degree of racism here, but it's also bound up with the politics of what's going on, 

Guy Burton 17:58

you know, in the region as well, combined with football hooliganism, right? 

Francesco Belcastro 18:04

Yeah, they do are very difficult to separate, aren't they? It's very hard to say, well, this person has done it because of that specific motivation. That's why I think that, like...

Guy Burton 18:11

This is why I think it's really interesting to look at how people are trying to frame it, that you had on the one side, you know, sort of the pro-Israel stance, if you want, to say that here these football fans going about their business and they were attacked, right? 

Guy Burton 18:25

With no context. On the other side, what you do have is you've got a social, you know, sort of, for want of a better word, the anti-Israeli position, which says that these, no, these guys were attacked because they were being provocative, and look what, and it doesn't come out in the report, but also look what they were doing in the stadium. 

Guy Burton 18:44

They were booing and setting off flaresand disrespecting the silence for the floods in Valencia...

Francesco Belcastro 18:45

Yeah, I mean, can I also say, like, we're doing an episode on it because we are football and football politics is what we deal with, but the sort of, the moral outrage of some of the leaders you mentioned before, because a couple of football fans were slapped around when there is a genocide in Gaza, to me, it's quite disturbing. 

Francesco Belcastro 19:04

So, I mean, there is also a proportion of, you know... 

Guy Burton 19:07

But this is why I think, you know, it's really striking, and I've made this point previously and that if you look at the first press conference that the Amsterdam mayor does in the morning after the night before, she's effectively taking this kind of, if you want to call it, the pro-Israeli stance, which is just looking at the fans being attacked. 

Guy Burton 19:26

By Monday, when this report comes out, you get a much more rounded picture of it wasn't just fans being attacked, there were also provocations beforehand. So there is a... and then sit- and situating this in the bigger picture of what's going on, you know, in Gaza and Lebanon. 

Guy Burton 19:44

right? So this, and I guess the so there is this sort of struggle, which, which was striking for me, as I was thinking about it, this struggle for who controls the narrative, right? Who wants who is trying to take control of it, and frame it? 

Guy Burton 19:57

Because of course, if you can, if you can frame if you can set the agenda, set the narrative, and then control it, then that makes it easier to argue your position, you know, further down the track. 

Francesco Belcastro 20:09

But I think like, I think there is quite a lot of unhappiness with our main media, I mean, frame these initially, without necessarily having all the information and the fact that I know, you mentioned some of some of the politicians, 

Francesco Belcastro 20:25

they're very quick to condemn these, they mean, they also happen to be incidentally, some of the biggest supporters and sponsors of of Israeli policies in the region, I mean, you mentioned Ursula von der Leyen, as probably the person has been more criticized for her 

Francesco Belcastro 20:40

giving carte blanche to Israel at the very beginning of the, of the conflict. And she was one of the quickest to react to this and say, well, it's a, it's antisemitism. So I find it very problematic. 

Francesco Belcastro 20:49

And I think as well, like, okay, we are doing an episode on it, but again, it seems to me that, that these overreaction to what happened, regardless of what happened is not, it's not innocent. It's not neutral. 

Francesco Belcastro 21:00

It's a way for some, um, political actors and for part of the media to deflect the attention to the real story, which is the ongoing genocide in Gaza. 

Guy Burton 21:11

Yes. And, and, and in some ways there are some parallels, if I may, um, between, you know, what happened last on the, on that Thursday night with actually looking at the, you know, the start of the current round. 

Guy Burton 21:22

I can't call it, you know, sort of that the war started on October 7th because there has been an occupation of the, of the Palestinians and Palestinian land and siege of Gaza for years, if not decades. 

Guy Burton 21:33

Right? So, and this, so what's interesting is that often Israel's justification for its current war in Gaza and you know, extending it, expanding it to Lebanon has been based on suddenly out of the blue on October the 7th, 2023, this attack happened. 

Guy Burton 21:49

Um, you know, people were killed and hostages were taken as if Israel was at peace with, with the Palestinians. That's not the case. 

Francesco Belcastro 21:56

Are you referring to what some people would define as a narrative of victimhood? Is that what you are. alluding to?

Guy Burton 22:01

Well, yes, but this is also where it comes back to the, the message and sort of the, the framing that took place in the, in the early hours after the events in, in Amsterdam, because when you listened to the first, um, reports coming out of the media, it was, um, Israeli football supporters had been attacked within, with no sort of reference to what was actually happening before these attacks took place. 

Guy Burton 22:27

So this is why I'm saying that there's a, that there's, there's a sort of a check- There's a tension going on here between two, two ways of telling the story. One wants to basically say, look, we're the victims in this because we were minding our own business and this happened.

Guy Burton 22:41

On the other hand they're saying no, no this happens this happened in a wider context of, you know, political dissatisfaction, frustration, q war going on. And if you wanted to apply it back down to October the 7th you know, October the 7th didn't happen out of nothing, right? Because as I pointed out, Israel had been imposing a siege on Gaza until that point. Well, and still does. 

Guy Burton 23:06

So anyway so so this is kind of what I'm saying that's important to this is why I wanted to take a bit of a step back and talk about you know the framing and the narrative that are under- underlying this discussion about what what happened in Amsterdam on the, on, on the, on the Thursday night. But what next, Francesco? Where does this, where does this leave us?

Francesco Belcastro 23:25

Well I think it reopens the debate about um the exclusion of- not that it was ever closed about the exclusion of of Israeli clubs from European and other competitions. um, 

Francesco Belcastro 23:40

which has got, I mean, it's, it's, we're not, people are not asking Israeli clubs and national teams to be excluded from football and from other sports because of their hooligans' behavior. Um, because otherwise we would have to exclude all of our nations, but because it's, there is, there is a sense that there is a, well, there is an ongoing genocide in Gaza, in the first thing, and, and, and, you know, 

Francesco Belcastro 24:04

Israel shouldn't be allowed to play, but I think there is also growing sense that the environment is politically loaded and, um, there are often, and in this France playing Israel these days, there'll be a lot of occasions in which problems might, might happen. 

Francesco Belcastro 24:21

And that's not the main reason why Israel should be kicked out of sports in my view and the people, but it does contribute to the discussion. 

Guy Burton 24:29

Well, let, let, let's be clear. I mean, Israel, you know, sort of the, the, the, there is a campaign to have, um, Israel booted out of, uh, or at least banned or banned by, by FIFA and the, and the governing authorities, but this is because of, um, you know, 

Guy Burton 24:43

the, the actions of the Israeli state, uh, vis-a-vis, um, you know, football in, you know, Palestinian football.

Francesco Belcastro 24:50

So there is a longer ongoing campaign that essentially started almost 15 years ago now, uh, that, uh, verse that is based on the, on the ways in which. 

Francesco Belcastro 25:04

Israel and Israeli football Federation, um, discriminate again, or doesn't allow, um, Palestinians to play football essentially. And, and a set of rules by FIFA, by the, the football and international football federation that are violated, um, by Israel, including, for example, I won't go into too much details, the fact that there are, um, clubs, Israeli clubs that play in the, in the Israeli league, 

Francesco Belcastro 25:26

including the second division that are based in, in settlements, which are under international law, illegal, right. And FIFA don't do say, well, you cannot really have a club based on, on occupied land. 

Francesco Belcastro 25:36

So on the basis of this has been a long campaign. Palestinians and allies to try to exclude Israel. This has been sort of restarted and reinvigorated in the last year in light of the ongoing genocide in Gaza because people have argued and I think is a fair point that cannot really have a state playing sport while it's carrying out this kind of violence on our population. 

Francesco Belcastro 26:00

And obviously we often have the comparison there with Russia and Ukraine, which we have discussed briefly both last year with Karim Zidane and Kat Pijetlovich in an episode on Gaza. But also from an Ukrainian point of view, you might remember we had an excellent episode on Ukraine in which we asked our guest what was the difference from their point of view between the two situations. 

Francesco Belcastro 26:24

So there is this debate and I think obviously these, what happened in Amsterdam has kind of brought this to the attention of a lot of people. It's not the main reason why Israel shouldn't be allowed to play sports. In my view, in a lot of views, but I think it's the main reason why Israel shouldn't be allowed to play sports in my viewing world views. 

Francesco Belcastro 26:38

I think it kind of connects the debate. So that's an aspect. 

Guy Burton 26:41

Yeah. I mean, it should be said as well that in the [Amsterdam] Council report, they say that when they looked at whether or not the game should be called off, cancelled, they said there was no legal basis to do it, to do that. 

Guy Burton 26:52

Right. And what we've also seen, apparently, is that Besiktas, the Turkish team is going to be playing Maccabi Tel Aviv in the next Europa League game. Besiktas had already decided before the events in Amsterdam to play their game outside of Istanbul in a third country, Hungary, which has decided to host it. UEFA has gone along with that. 

Francesco Belcastro 27:15

I mean, if you look at it from the point of view of Besiktas fans, they've got a reason to be quite annoyed. They've done nothing. And they won't be having their UEFA... sorry, their Europa League match at home through no fault of their own, because someone else, somewhere else. decided to to, you know, create... 

Francesco Belcastro 27:36

So I can see the I can see why you would be unhappy about that. 

Guy Burton 27:39

But I mean, there's also I mean, I thought maybe maybe people are also curious to know why Israel and Israeli clubs are in UEFA in the first place, right? 

Guy Burton 27:47

Because, you know, it's Israel is not a UEFA, the Europe is the European football. And Israel is, well, based in the Asian continent, right? 

Francesco Belcastro 28:00

Yeah, and it's in itself, it's an interesting story. I mean, Israel used to play with with the Asian Federation, I think, I think it even won an Asian won the first edition of the Asian Cup beating India in the final. 

Francesco Belcastro 28:11

I think it was in the seventies? I can't remember off the top of my head.

Guy Burton 28:14

Back in the 19... early 60s, I think it was. And they were a member of the Asian Federation until 1974. But other- but the reason that they stopped playing was because other countries refused to play it. And eventually they were expelled. 

Guy Burton 28:30

And it was it was in 1991 that UEFA invited Israel into the European football family.

Francesco Belcastro 28:38

OK. Good that you checked in here because I didn't remember on top of my head where exactly it was. But I mean, the story about the 74 split, if you want, took place is very interesting in itself. 

Francesco Belcastro 28:51

And perhaps we should have an episode about it, because it was kind of a gradual thing, right? And there were big splits within the Asian Federation about countries that essentially didn't have a problem. 

Francesco Belcastro 29:02

Asia is a massive continent playing against Israel and others. So it's there's quite there's quite a lot struggle of power within the Asian Federation. It went on for about 15 years, I think. And then eventually, Israel decided, or it was decided for them. 

Guy Burton 29:20

But it's interesting. I mean, you alluded as well to the, to the, to the campaign to have Israel you know, the nation- national team and Israeli clubs banned, you know, through, through FIFA. And this is also something which presumably, you know, will have would have repercussions at the European level at UEFA. 

Guy Burton 29:39

And where are we with that? Because you've reported on this a number of times on the podcast about the you know, the campaign about what's happening at FIFA vis-a-vis whether or not Israel will be banned. Where are we? 

Francesco Belcastro 29:54

So I think after was it three postponements now, I've lost track, there is now I don't think there is a new deadline. So basically, we are waiting for FIFA to decide something. And I think the latest thing, which was in in October, was that it is now a commission is there? 

Francesco Belcastro 30:12

Is that the latest thing, Guy, that, that's, I don't know if it's been appointed. I don't think it's been appointed yet. They will look into into the matter, which is FIFA's usual way of of kick- kicking the countdown and hoping that things go away. But... yeah. 

Guy Burton 30:29

And I would say arguably that, you know, in a way, this unwillingness to take a decision is arguably making things worse, right? Because, you know, at least whether, whether the decision went, you know, one one way or the other, at least would have some clarity about that. 

Francesco Belcastro 30:44

And I think I think the issue from the FIFA point of view, it's that it's very difficult to have a decision and and to decide on the basis of FIFA's own regulation in favor of Israel, because the violation of FIFA's rules are quite clear. 

Francesco Belcastro 31:01

So if you go in the in the merit of the of the decision, it's if we have one base on FIFA's rules, it has to be a big, big fudge for it not to for it not to go in favor of Palestine. So the way that is being addressed by Infantino in particular was quite openly for Israel and supportive of Israel as a state and its role as a football nation. 

Francesco Belcastro 31:23

It's I think to just postpone it and postpone it and hope that it goes away. And... which I don't know how sustainable it is, but I mean, that's FIFA for you in many ways. 

Guy Burton 31:33

Yeah. Yeah. But it also comes back to that by not making a decision on this as well, it means that, you know, other other other confederations are not going to take action like UEFA, right? 

Guy Burton 31:43

So this is where we are... 

Francesco Belcastro 31:44

Yeah, it is very much... I know there is discussion about kicking Israel out of UEFA, but the core debate, the main decisions will be taken by FIFA and then other confederations will have to. So you're absolutely right in saying, you know, that the UEFA one is sort of... It's, it's, it's less relevant in a way. 

Guy Burton 32:03

Exactly. But so long as, you know, Israel remains a member of the UEFA and its clubs are able to play in UEFA competitions, and I think we may will move into a situation, into an environment now in which it's going to be deeply problematic when Israeli clubs are playing in European competition. So the problem, of course, is that, you know, when that spills over into into sort of wider public disturbance as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 32:26

So that was a very interesting discussion, Guy. I think a few things to add. The first one, if listeners want to know a bit more about the impact of the war on Gaza, on sports, we had a fantastic episode with Karim Zidane and Kat Pijetlovic last year. Obviously, things have evolved since then, but some of the themes, unfortunately, are still the same. 

Francesco Belcastro 32:51

And one other thing that Kat did in the episode, or the main thing that she did, was introducing and explaining the petition that she has, with other people, has organized, that aims at excluding Israel from sports. 

Francesco Belcastro 33:08

So if listeners want to know more about that, they should go back to this episode, or you want to add something now? No, other than to say, I think, you know, we will obviously, this is a continuing issue, and I'm sure we will be returning to it, you know, in the months ahead as well. 

Francesco Belcastro 33:27

So yeah, watch the space. Yeah, and really consider signing if you feel like it's the right thing to do. It's on the website of DiEM25, the political movement, it's hosting the petition to exclude Israel from sports. 

Francesco Belcastro 33:44

So that's one. As you said, like, unfortunately, the genocide in Gaza is ongoing. So I'm sure we'll go back to this issue. I mean, what we discussed today was loosely related to that. And I think we showed why. 

Francesco Belcastro 34:02

It also has its own dynamics, and it's some times, sometimes it's dangerous to mix the two. And I hope we explain that, why we find that... These are more than the specific case. And yeah, what else? 

Guy Burton 34:17

Well, I think really, it's just on my end it sort of leaves it for us to sort of say well we always like to hear from listeners what they thought about the episode and that there's ways that they can get in contact with us. So what they think they liked or disliked or even topics that they think we should be exploring in the future, right. Because we've had we've done a few episodes where listeners have suggested subjects and they've been some of our better ones, I'd say. And they can do that where, Francesco?

Francesco Belcastro 34:42

Well they can find us everywhere. You can find us on Facebook and they can find us on Twitter, X if they're still there, if they're not left as a protest after the American elections. I think they can find us on Blue Sky even though we're not very active there.

Guy Burton 34:58

We could probably do more.

Francesco Belcastro 35:00

Probably yes. And then they can find us individually on LinkedIn, on our emails and we also we actually also have a FootPol email, don't we?

Guy Burton 35:11

Yes, footpolpodcast at gmail.com.

Francesco Belcastro 35:14

Yeah, so please get in touch. If you're happy, if you're unhappy, if you got suggestions. And then the other thing that we asked to listen to is it's very important to us if they sort of like us, rate us, give us five stars...

Guy Burton 35:26

Share the episodes with their friends. 

Francesco Belcastro 35:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Different apps, whether they use Spotify or Apple, Spotify would give them different ways of sharing and of rating. It's very important for us that we do that, that they do that. 

Francesco Belcastro 35:38

It's a busy field. So we appreciate every help. Next week, thankfully we have a guest. So they're not left with us again, because obviously we are unable to manage an episode without a guest! So we have got a guest, which is a great thing to do. 

Francesco Belcastro 35:57

Ermm, we've got Nick Hawker from Exeter City Football Club. Fantastic supporter club. And Nick is going to tell us about the fantastic work that they do. They work with the community. They are first team, the women's club. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:11

And it's a fantastic story of community and football. So listen to really tune in for that. 

Guy Burton 36:18

Okay, great. And when should they tune in? Remind them when the episodes come out? 

Francesco Belcastro 36:23

I think Monday afternoon... Monday morning! Monday morning! 

Guy Burton 36:26

Monday mornings. And so that means if you haven't already done so, consider subscribing. So it just appears in wherever it is you get your podcast, first thing on Monday. 

Francesco Belcastro 36:36

Well, Guys, thank you very much. 

Guy Burton 36:38

No, thank you. And I'll speak to you again next week, then. Take care. Okay, bye.