Meredith Brough (00:00:01) - Hello, I'm Meredith Braff, your host. Welcome to the world of Sweet Slumber, where we unravel the secrets to peaceful and restful nights for babies and young children and discuss the difficulties and wonders of motherhood. As an experienced mother of five, sleep coach, childcare expert, and instructor of sleep consultants, I bring a wealth of insight and knowledge to the table. In the show. I'll be sharing my baby centered sleep approach so you can sleep well and wake up feeling refreshed and energized and help your little one thrive every step of the way. I'll also teach you how to let go of parenting pressure and confusion so you can embrace everything that you truly love, especially your child. You deserve a rewarding motherhood journey. So let's dive in. Hello! Welcome to a new episode of the Sweet Slumber podcast. I'm happy to be here today with Shannon Wilson, a therapist who specializes in perinatal mental health. Hi, Shannon.
Shannon Wilson (00:01:05) - Hi. Thanks for having me.
Meredith Brough (00:01:06) - Yeah, I'm really excited about this., Shannon and I met at a Moms Night Out event where she was on a panel.
Meredith Brough (00:01:13) - I was so excited and thrilled to find out there was a clinic in my area that focus on mental health illness for mothers. Soon after we met, I took a training course on perinatal mental health from Shannon, and I'm just a big fan, so I'm so happy to have you here and share you. Shannon is licensed by the state of Iowa as a mental health counselor and holds certification in Perinatal Mental health. So as a bachelor's degree in social work and earned her master's degree in counseling, rehabilitation and student development in 2010. When the University of Iowa. She enjoys working with women and families during pregnancy and new parenthood who may be experiencing difficulties with role changes and identity shifts, as well as parents who are experiencing prenatal postpartum depression, anxiety, or experiencing trauma from birth or early postpartum experiences. She was the first person in Iowa to become certified in perinatal mental health, and has continued her education with more training in this field. She helped found and chaired the Iowa chapter of Postpartum Support International. And I'm really excited to brag about those things for you because you're a pioneer in such an important work.
Meredith Brough (00:02:24) - Thank you. So do you want to tell us more about yourself, your family, your background? And I mean, you probably have a lot to say to try and condense it. So let's just start there.
Shannon Wilson (00:02:34) - Okay? Yeah. So I,, I'm, as you said, I'm a therapist. I specialize in perinatal mental health. I've been doing this work now since 2014., when I started just doing more education in this area., and when I first started, I found that I had to do a lot of education to the community because there wasn't really a specialization of perinatal mental health around here. And so I was doing a lot of free,, birth fairs, and I would go into childbirth prep classes and just lots of things like that where I would try to spread the word about perinatal mental health as an actual thing., and so that seems so long ago talking about it now., but the work that I do now, I've done a lot of training of,, birth professionals, of other therapists, both locally in Iowa and out of the state.
Shannon Wilson (00:03:41) - , and so it's been kind of a wild ride, but it's been really great to see how much it's all grown., now, there are many perinatal specialists in the area, which is so great., and I think just more there's been so much education. Amongst women and families in general about not only postpartum depression, but topics of postpartum anxiety and,, postpartum rage and intrusive thoughts and things like that. And so it's been really cool to see all of that happen over the years.
Meredith Brough (00:04:19) - Well, and it must make you so proud and honored to have been one of the first people and and a teacher and instructor to so many of these therapists like. Yeah, really?
Shannon Wilson (00:04:29) - Yeah, it's been really great.
Meredith Brough (00:04:31) - So I don't know if you'd like to talk about your personal life at all, but are you a mother?
Shannon Wilson (00:04:36) - I am, yes. So I have three kids. My daughter Olivia is 13, and so that is quite the time. It's quite the season of life. Yes., my middle guy is 11.
Shannon Wilson (00:04:50) - He just turned 11, and then my baby is eight. So I'm kind of out of the perinatal timeframe right now. But I was in it for many years and I can still very, very,, easily remember what it was like.
Meredith Brough (00:05:06) - Yeah. Thank you. I just love that it's relatable to you, you know, that you're not just. I don't say that it's bad to be a therapist who hasn't been there because we need we need everybody to have this training. Yeah. I just think it makes it even easier for people, probably, to talk to you. So can you tell us a story that led to this work that you're doing?
Shannon Wilson (00:05:26) - Yeah. So I this is something I actually remember very clearly as well, I was,, doing before I went out onto my own, in my own practice. I was working for a substance abuse agency locally, and I had just become a mother for the first time myself. And I had a woman who came in for substance abuse issues who also had postpartum depression.
Shannon Wilson (00:05:57) - And so it was the first time that I'd ever been exposed to this. And,, I was just so drawn to it. I was so drawn to kind of just, you know, the unique issues that women are facing as they transition into motherhood. And it just intersected so perfectly with my own transition that I just kind of fell in love with it. And so,, I wanted I just gobbled up all of the information that I could, and that was one of the things that really led to me going out on my own was because I wanted to pursue this passion of mine.
Meredith Brough (00:06:37) - That's awesome. Well, has it been a tough journey at times? Has it been challenging or is it just been mostly rewarding?
Shannon Wilson (00:06:45) - , all of the above. Yeah, I would say lots of lots of reward, lots of challenges., it's been you know, I learn I've probably worked with thousands of women by now and I learn from everybody. And so that is really helpful because, you know, you can learn things, you can read about things and you can hear things, but until you actually are sitting in the room with someone and you're you're hearing those things, actually, you know, how they're manifesting and how they're impacting people's lives.
Shannon Wilson (00:07:19) - You don't really, truly understand it until then. And so it's been an awesome journey.
Meredith Brough (00:07:26) - Yeah. Well, I remember when I felt really drawn towards the training that you offered. I think it was like 2018 maybe.
Shannon Wilson (00:07:35) - Yeah, it was pre-pandemic.
Meredith Brough (00:07:37) - Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:07:38) - Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:07:39) - , I remember being amazed at what I learned and I was applying my knowledge, you know, spotting red flags, sending people to therapists within the same week. And so I just felt like so meant to be and, and then also running into fathers who are struggling and being able to teach them that this is a thing. And,, if I felt like it was a theme for like a year straight that this was this was my work, it wasn't really so much sleep related as it was perinatal mental health related. But it was, again, like you said, very, very rewarding and important. And it felt lifesaving, you know, to these families that I could send them and get to the right resources. And that's been something that I've gotten good at, too, is finding the right therapist.
Meredith Brough (00:08:26) - But I love the see the website like, that's grown, you know, all the resources and all the,, professionals that people can look up and oh, it's so cool.
Shannon Wilson (00:08:36) - Yeah. It's great. It's great. Thank you for doing that. Because we need people who are out there in, you know, working with women and in their homes to be able to spot some of those warning signs and provide some education.
Meredith Brough (00:08:48) - Yeah. As many people as possible. As good,? Yes., so looking back at struggles that you had as a new mom, what are some of the the things that you went through?.
Shannon Wilson (00:09:01) - When I started just doing more education in this area, and when I first started, I found that I had to do a lot of education to the community because there wasn't really a specialization of perinatal mental health around here. And so I was doing a lot of free birth fairs, and I would go into childbirth prep classes and just lots of things like that, where I would try to spread the word about perinatal mental health as an actual thing.
Shannon Wilson (00:09:36) - And so that seems so long ago talking about it now. But the work that I do now, I've done a lot of training of birth professionals, of other therapists, both locally in Iowa and out of the state. And so it's been kind of a wild ride, but it's been really great to see how much it's all grown., now there are many perinatal specialists in the area, which is so great., and I think just more there's been so much education. Amongst women and families in general about not only postpartum depression, but topics of postpartum anxiety and postpartum rage and intrusive thoughts and things like that. And so it's been really cool to see all of that happen over the years. Well, and.
Meredith Brough (00:10:28) - It must make you so proud and honored to have been one of the first people and and a teacher and instructor to so many of these therapists like. Yeah, really?
Shannon Wilson (00:10:38) - Yeah, it's been really great.
Meredith Brough (00:10:40) - So I don't know if you'd like to talk about your personal life at all, but are you a mother?
Shannon Wilson (00:10:44) - I am, yes.
Shannon Wilson (00:10:45) - So I have three kids. My daughter Olivia is 13, and so that is quite the time. It's quite the season of life. Yes., my middle guy is 11. He just turned 11, and then my baby is eight. So I'm kind of out of the perinatal timeframe right now. But I was in it for many years and I can still very, very,, easily remember what it was like. Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:11:16) - Thank you. I just love that it's relatable to you, you know, that you're not just. I don't say that it's bad to be a therapist who hasn't been there because we need we need everybody to have this training. Yeah, I just think it makes it even easier for people, probably, to talk to you. So can you tell us a story that led to this work that you're doing?
Shannon Wilson (00:11:35) - Yeah. So I this is something I actually remember very clearly as well, I was,, doing before I went out onto my own, in my own practice. I was working for a substance abuse agency locally, and I had just become a mother for the first time myself.
Shannon Wilson (00:11:55) - And I had a woman who came in for substance abuse issues who also had postpartum depression. And so it was the first time that I'd ever been exposed to this. And,, I was just so drawn to it. I was so drawn to kind of just, you know, the unique issues that women are facing as they transition into motherhood. And it just intersected so perfectly with my own transition that I just kind of fell in love with it. And so,, I wanted I just gobbled up all of the information that I could, and that was one of the things that really led to me going out on my own was because I wanted to pursue this passion of mine.
Meredith Brough (00:12:45) - That's awesome. Well, has it been a tough journey at times? Has it been challenging or is it just been mostly rewarding?
Shannon Wilson (00:12:53) - , all of the above, yeah, I would say lots of lots of reward, lots of challenges. It's been you know, I learn I've probably worked with thousands of women by now and I learn from everybody.
Shannon Wilson (00:13:07) - And so that is really helpful because, you know, you can learn things, you can read about things and you can hear things, but until you actually are sitting in the room with someone and you're you're hearing those things, actually, you know, how they're manifesting and how they're impacting people's lives. You don't really, truly understand it until then. And so it's been an awesome journey. Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:13:34) - Well, I remember when I felt really drawn towards the training that you offered. I think it was like 2018 maybe.
Shannon Wilson (00:13:42) - Yeah, it was pre-pandemic.
Meredith Brough (00:13:44) - Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:13:45) - Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:13:46) - , I remember being amazed at what I learned and I was applying my knowledge, you know, spotting red flags, sending people to therapists within the same week. And so I just felt like so meant to be and, and then also running into fathers who are struggling and being able to, to teach them that this is a thing. And,, if I felt like it was a theme for like a year straight that this was this was my work, it wasn't really so much sleep related as it was perinatal mental health related.
Meredith Brough (00:14:19) - But it was, again, like you said, very, very rewarding and important. And it felt lifesaving, you know, to these families that I could send them and get to the right resources. And that's been something that I've gotten good at, too, is finding the right therapist. But I love the the website like, that's grown, you know, all the resources and all the,, professionals that people can look up and oh, it's so cool.
Shannon Wilson (00:14:43) - Yeah. It's great. It's great. Thank you for doing that. Because we need people who are out there in, you know, working with women and in their homes to be able to spot some of those warning signs and provide some education.
Meredith Brough (00:14:56) - Yeah. As many people as possible as good,? Yes. So looking back at struggles that you had as a new mom, what are some of the the things that you went through?, did you struggle with sleep? Did you struggle with your mental health at all?
Shannon Wilson (00:15:11) - Yeah, I definitely did.
Shannon Wilson (00:15:13) - So with my daughter. She was my first and I'm a little bit of a control freak. And so I was I became very consumed with her from a, very from the very early weeks. Right. I only had seven weeks of maternity leave before I had to go back to work. I just finished grad school, so I was starting a brand new job. I was looking for work, and I just remember wanting to control her schedule and her sleep so desperately, and I felt like it was a statement on my motherhood that I couldn't, that I was doing something wrong because I could not make this child lay down in her bassinet and go to sleep. And so I would, you know, do the whole nursing, like, hold her. And then I would try to lay her down and she would wake right back up. Of course. Right. I'm sure you hear that, you know, thousands of times a week., but I it kind of drove me crazy, quite honestly. She also wouldn't really take a bottle very well.
Shannon Wilson (00:16:22) - And so daycare was looming. And so that was really stressful trying to get that, you know, transition taken care of. And I have never really experienced much depression before. I've always been more of an anxious person. And so I experienced a little, I would say a mild depressive episode during that time where I just I didn't really want to leave the house. I didn't really want to be around people. My mood was really low. I was very irritable, I was weepy, and so it was it was really difficult.
Meredith Brough (00:17:00) - Yeah. Well, so what were the tools that you you used to feel better because the resources were limited, right? Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:17:10) - Well, I had already had a well-established relationship with a therapist,, which I think was really helpful for me to just kind of continue with therapy during that time. My husband is a rock. He's just really, really supporting. And I think what honestly, really kicked me out of it was when I had to go back to work. And so I am an extrovert, and when I spend too much time isolated and alone and, you know, those nights are so hard, right? Like you're by yourself, you're awake with a baby, and you just feel like you're the only person on the planet who is awake at that time.
Shannon Wilson (00:17:47) - And so it's so lonely and isolating. And I just, I think once I actually got into work again and I was around people more, that really helped kind of pull me out. Medication also was useful. So yes, but a blessing.
Meredith Brough (00:18:04) - I'm glad it didn't say so. Difficult for very long or get worse. Right. So one of us. Yeah., you brought up something that I often talk to parents about how hard it is to lose that sense of control, you know, not that we can always control our lives, but you can control your life a lot more before you have a child. I think it's a really big challenge when you become a mother. Just that one thing.
Shannon Wilson (00:18:33) - Huge, huge. And it's a risk factor for a perinatal mental health disorder as well. Just because yeah, like you said, the the lack of control is so hard to manage. And all of a sudden your life is kind of revolving around this new baby.
Meredith Brough (00:18:53) - Yeah. Well, we're going to talk a lot more about postpartum depression anxiety, but maybe as kind of a little precursor to the conversation, what can women do?, what's in their control to prevent, you know.
Meredith Brough (00:19:09) - I guess developing on this, these disorders, what can they do to to improve their mental health and well-being when they're, you know, maybe starting out as new moms?
Shannon Wilson (00:19:17) - Yeah, that's a great question. So one of the things I think can be really useful and important, and one of the things I do with all of my pregnant clients is we create a postpartum plan. And so that involves, you know, just discussion of,, kind of normative things to expect postpartum. So the baby blues, I'm talking about couple issues and how normal it is for relationships to change and for relationships to be harder. We talk about just roll transition rule. The number one thing that and I always I always preface this with like, I know you're going to have a baby. I know you're going to be a new mom. And it's incredibly important to prioritize. Your sleep is just such. I think it's something that gets very significantly underrated in our culture., it's kind of like one of the first things that we do away with, but it is so closely correlated to mental health that it's a foundational thing that I work with everyone on.
Shannon Wilson (00:20:18) - It's one of the first things that I assess when I have new clients coming into my office, particularly if they say things like, I'm not sleeping, I'm so tired because it is a legitimate chemical intervention. It's just that important. If you can, you know, work with your partner or work with someone like you, Meredith, or a doula like a postpartum doula, in order to be able to prioritize sleep. That is,, some of the other things that I think we we take for granted are just things like nourishing our bodies, so giving ourselves good food, good hydration,, getting outside and moving our body, even if it's just walking to the mailbox or going around the block, it doesn't have to be, you know, high intensity cardio, but just move your body a little bit, get some sunshine, get some fresh air. I tell my new moms, you're kind of like a plant, right? You, like, just let yourself soak up some sunshine, some fresh air, because it just is that important.
Shannon Wilson (00:21:17) - Get out, get out. Do even if it's, you know, going to the drive through at,, just because we become so disconnected from the world that it feels really lonely and isolating. So if you can get yourself out, that is going to do wonders for your mood, even if you're not interacting with people directly, just getting out and being part of the world, connect with other moms. That can be a little bit of a double edged sword sometimes, right? So you want to find your people, find your humans because some people will report that. Okay, well, I was talking to this person and they had a very different experience. And then it made me feel kind of crappy about my own experience. So find your own people,, that you can relate to and connect with, because that connection is so important. The other thing, the last thing would be reminding yourself of the seasonal nature of parenthood. So when you're a first time parent, it's so hard because it kind of feels like you're in something and you have no idea when or if it's going to end.
Shannon Wilson (00:22:29) - So if you have a period of like significant sleep deprivation or a sick baby or just a difficult baby can feel like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to feel like myself again or this is never going to end. Remind yourself that it's a season. It's the beauty, I think, of being a, you know, second, third, fourth, whatever time parent, because you can see that so much more clearly than you can when you're a first timer.
Meredith Brough (00:22:56) - Yeah. Oh, that was a wonderful list. I'm listening to you. And I'm already like creating the reel in my head. I gotta share this with everybody. This section of the conversation is wonderful. Thank you so much. So,, one of the things that I run into often is this misunderstanding about baby blues. Why do doctors always give that opportunity for women to say, oh, it was just the baby blues? Or, you know, people will just downplay what they went through by saying, oh, yeah, I had a little bit of that.
Meredith Brough (00:23:27) - Yeah. Can you kind of clarify that for us?
Shannon Wilson (00:23:29) - Definitely. Yeah. This is really., I think baby blues and postpartum depression have been used interchangeably in our culture and certainly in the medical,, profession. So doctors will use it interchangeably, but they're actually very different. So the baby blues are quite normal., they tend to happen around day four, postpartum, day four ish, when there's a really significant dump of,, pregnancy hormones. And so,, what that means is you're you're just your body is just kind of lost, right? You're there's, like, hormonal shifts. Your mood is going a little bit crazy., you know, I will say, like, one minute you're holding your baby and you're looking at your baby, and you're filled with joy and you're thinking, oh, my goodness, is this the best thing ever? And then, you know, an hour later, you might be looking at your baby and you're thinking, oh my gosh, what did I just do? I can't believe I just did this.
Shannon Wilson (00:24:33) - You know, the responsibility hits you like a ton of bricks. And so that as long as it's doing this is very normal, that lasts up to around 2 to 3 weeks postpartum, no more than three. So then after that three week mark, if it's less like this and it's more kind of low, more lower mood, then it's probably going to be more in the depression zone. So,, that's where we would want to start to really intervene. It can certainly be helpful to have additional emotional support during the baby blues time frame, particularly if you have other risk factors for,, perinatal mood disorders. But,, it's not necessarily,, necessary, if that makes sense..
Meredith Brough (00:25:26) - Let's talk about the risk factors. I don't think I prepped you with that question, but I know you know them. So what are some of the risk factors that we need to be aware of? Because I think being aware of them just helps us maybe take it a little more seriously. You know, when people will, I know, have depression or anxiety before maybe before they're pregnant or while they're pregnant, and then they think this is just a crossover and I don't really need to worry about it.
Meredith Brough (00:25:48) - So yeah, we want to talk about that.
Shannon Wilson (00:25:50) - Yeah. So risk factors., oh there are so many. So, pregnancy being unplanned is a risk factor. And unplanned doesn't always equal unwanted. Right. But even unplanned it's it's unplanned. So it's just a significant shift. If you have a history of miscarriage or pregnancy loss that's a risk factor., let's see if you are a person who has had,, any sort of endocrine issues. So thyroid disorders,, difficulties with,, hormonal birth control, if you have,, had diabetes, anything like that puts you more at risk if you a teenage pregnancies certainly put you more at risk if there are,, certain variables in your environment. So,, if you're doing low socioeconomic stuff that puts you at higher risk,, multiples are higher risk. So, yeah, there's just being kind of a control freak., I shouldn't use that term control freak. I use that on.
Meredith Brough (00:26:56) - Myself because of yourself. Yeah. Yes. But if you.
Shannon Wilson (00:26:59) - Are more of, you know, a controlling personality and not controlling in, like, a domineering way, but controlling and like an anxiety driven kind of way, then that puts you more at risk. So there are quite a few things. Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:27:12) - And there's one that I thought of while you're making your list and it's having trauma at birth, right.
Shannon Wilson (00:27:17) - Yes. Absolutely. So yes, that's a huge one. Thank you for bringing that up. Birth trauma absolutely puts you more at risk not only for the effects of the trauma after, but also for mood and anxiety disorder and trauma.
Meredith Brough (00:27:32) - We're not going to go into it here. We could, but that could just mean that things didn't go the way you wanted or someone didn't treat you well. It doesn't have to be like a really terrible experience, right? Yes.
Shannon Wilson (00:27:43) - Yeah. I mean, I have heard it all when it comes to birth trauma., but kind of the underlying themes are the same where people are left feeling really helpless, powerless, uninformed,, feeling like they were not provided any empathy by their care teams.
Shannon Wilson (00:28:02) - And so even if it feels like, okay, well, that's not a big deal. Or other people had that happen and they were fine., if it was a situation like that, then that could qualify for sure as a traumatic experience. Okay.
Meredith Brough (00:28:18) - Well, thanks for sharing that off the cuff. You did great. Thanks. Can we talk about warning signs though? Because this is probably my favorite topic to share about, like on social media where I just help moms keep an eye on themselves in a way. Or maybe we share this in. With our loved ones, and we asked them to keep an eye on us. Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:28:36) - Yeah, I think that that's one of the best things about being able to talk to families when they're couples, when they're pregnant, because partners are in such a great position to see and notice some of these changes, perhaps even before,, you know, the mom sees them herself. So,, yeah. So warning signs,, obviously low mood would be a warning sign, and that would be if that's kind of a stable and enduring pattern,, we're all going to feel some low mood.
Shannon Wilson (00:29:13) - But if it's if it's problematic, it's problematic., irritability is a big one that I see a lot. Overwhelm is huge., I would say probably the biggest reasons that people come to see me are because they're feeling really overwhelmed and because they're dealing with a lot of irritability. And so those are significant changes that they noticed. If you're having difficulty being away from the baby or difficulty being with,, with the baby. Right. So if being away is causing you a lot of anxiety to the point where you're completely avoiding it or even with your partner, right? Even if you know there's there are people around that you trust to be a caregiver, that can be a sign,, or if you're avoiding being with the baby for similar reasons because you're feeling really excessive guilt., mom, guilt is real. I remember my when my daughter was born again very vividly. There are just these certain things that you remember, right? And I'm sitting in my hospital bed, and the guilt just hit me like a ton of bricks.
Shannon Wilson (00:30:23) - And, like, looking back, I'm thinking like, where did that even come from? I wasn't even a mother for 12 hours, right? And all of a sudden I'm experiencing this guilt. But excessive guilt that feels really hard to work through and put a if you're having a hard time bonding. And I want to preface that with,, you know, not everyone when baby comes out is going to immediately feel. Bonded and feel love and joy and all of those things, and that can be very, very normal. It also can be a sign that something more is going on. Yeah., any sort of anxiety driven behavior. So excessively checking things,, checking on the baby, checking the marking, you know, cleanliness and whatnot of, like, bottles, pump parts,, anything like that, that is, you're doing kind of on repeat over and over again. Intrusive thoughts can be very, very normal. They can also be an indication that you're dealing with an anxiety disorder. Not being able to sleep even when the baby is sleeping is a really big one.
Shannon Wilson (00:31:34) - So people will report being, oh my gosh, I'm so tired, but I can't sleep even when the baby is sleeping because my mind is racing, feeling the need to just do and do and do right. So not being able to settle and relax your body and let yourself heal from childbirth and bond with your baby. But feeling like, okay, no, I have to be up and doing. And some people find this very enjoyable because it feels productive. And we love productivity in American Quiet. For other people, it's kind of distressing because they want to be able to sit down and relax and rest. And so,, there are more, but those are some of the big ones that I see regularly.
Meredith Brough (00:32:17) - Well, I remember one that you taught in your training was that if you just don't feel like yourself, if you're wondering, it's worth it just to go and talk to a therapist.
Shannon Wilson (00:32:26) - Absolutely. If you aren't liking, if you're worried about the way that you're feeling free, I tell clients all the time it's not my like, I'm not in the business of keeping you in therapy if you don't need therapy.
Shannon Wilson (00:32:38) - And so even if it's a matter of just providing a little bit of validation that no, you're doing like things are okay, you're I'm not hearing any major red flags here. Sometimes that's what people need. Sometimes they just want additional emotional support as they are transitioning. And that is also a very valid reason to seek out professional support.
Meredith Brough (00:33:00) - I love that. Another thing I remember that really shocked me, not shocked but like saddened me was that you said lots of people get referrals and don't even they don't follow through. They don't see a doctor. They don't see a therapist. Yes. Yeah. So I think that was very,, reassuring what you just said. Like, really? What do you have to lose? Right. Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:33:22) - Yeah, there's there isn't anything to lose. And I think it's better to be safe and to have an eye on things then, you know, to kind of overlook it., the last thing that a new mom wants is to go to therapy, right? It's just not.
Shannon Wilson (00:33:40) - There are so many other things that she has to be doing. And so it's it's hard to make that step and to prioritize your own well-being. But it is important to think about what's good for you is good for your baby every time.
Meredith Brough (00:33:56) - And that's always been something that I've motivated my clients with. Absolutely. Do it for your baby. Yes. You won't be sorry. Yes.
Shannon Wilson (00:34:03) - 100%.
Meredith Brough (00:34:04) - So can we talk a little bit about the fact that men can get this? How does that even happen? And are there signs the same?
Shannon Wilson (00:34:12) - Yeah. So men can absolutely get postpartum depression and anxiety., they are I think it's like 10%. I should have brushed up on my stats. That's okay. I think it's change a lot. They do, they do. I think it's around 10%., and there are actually biological changes that happen when men, adoptive parents, anyone actually become parents. And so,, there's the biology part. There's also just the environmental aspects of this that are,, I mean, as we know, hugely significant.
Shannon Wilson (00:34:51) - Right? We're going through a transition that is incredibly life changing. And so they can. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes, they can absolutely be dealing with this too. And I would say the probably for men. A lot of there's there can be more anger., more of that irritability, peace, but certainly sadness, hopefulness, hopelessness., the like low motivation, low energy stuff. Yeah. Can be a thing.
Meredith Brough (00:35:26) - Yeah. I think that's what I've seen a lot of. And sometimes I'll work with people who the husband's already sought out treatment and, and I'm hearing the back story, you know, and yeah, there'll be things like, honestly, his his temper was pretty out of control. And so I tend to the baby more. And I think your advice would be the same though. Just it's better safe than sorry. And you would never regret getting checked. Right. And yes, I think we'll do anything for our babies.. Or about just awareness that this can be a thing.
Shannon Wilson (00:35:59) - Yeah. Yes. Men can get it too.
Meredith Brough (00:36:02) - So. I've been hearing this term, postpartum rage, for the last couple of years, and I hadn't heard of it in your training. I was like, is that even a thing? Now I believe it is. I just want to know more about it.
Shannon Wilson (00:36:14) - Yeah, yeah, it's definitely a thing. It's certainly something that has developed over the last few years. It's coming to my knowledge within the last few years and it's just. Yeah, feeling of like kind of uncontrollable rage and anger and it's very like physiological for people., I'm seeing so much and I don't know if I just didn't notice it pre-pandemic or if it really has been more since the pandemic. But a lot of people are dealing with so much sensory overwhelm. And so I think that is a strong contributor a lot of times to anger and rage as well, because, you know, you have a baby that has a lot of needs, and maybe you have toddlers or other children at home.
Shannon Wilson (00:37:05) - You have we have our our electronic devices that are constantly sending us notifications. Maybe the dog is barking in our environment. We have the television on and, you know, then we're being touched constantly too, right? And so there's just so much hitting us that I think it's hard for our brains and our bodies to process that., and it can certainly lead to that like anger response.
Meredith Brough (00:37:32) - I dealt with rage as a mom for many years, and for me, I had to do with unhealed trauma. And yeah, I think that a lot of people have been through trauma and don't realize it and that they're getting triggered too. But I do know that taught me it's not time to solve those problems during,, postpartum, right?
Shannon Wilson (00:37:52) - Yeah. It's really it's hard to devote the time to doing that., if you can and if you're motivated to, then certainly do that. But there are things that we can work on to try and help mitigate that. The response, the reaction. So it's not impacting the people around you because then that also fuels additional guilt and, you know, self frustration and all of all of those negative feelings too.
Shannon Wilson (00:38:23) - Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:38:25) - So there's just a little bit more I want to talk about that I think people need to hear,, when it comes to the way people talk, you know, a lot of people don't get their information from a friend, a parent, an associate. And like you mentioned, intrusive thoughts. I think that's important because I remember hearing from you in the training that people feel like the worst person ever, when this is really common and it's normal and it has it's something that happens when you are about to become a parent or you are a new parent, right?
Shannon Wilson (00:38:52) - Yeah, 100%. So intrusive thoughts are things that we all have. Parents are not, I don't know if you've ever been driving down the street and you thought,, oh my gosh, what would happen if I drove off of this bridge? Or what would I happen if I drove into the back of this car?, and then we think like, oh, that whatever. That's weird. Right? And we kind of brush it off.
Shannon Wilson (00:39:15) - , but a lot of times for new parents, those thoughts can center around harm coming to baby harm coming to partners or other children, or harm coming to self. And they can feel really scary., and it's just because our brains are hard wired during that time to really be looking out for danger and to keep our baby safe. And so it just is happening.
Meredith Brough (00:39:45) - , like, instinctively maybe. Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:39:47) - I mean, I would say I think the studies are like 85 or 90%, but I think it's probably closer to 100% of people experience intrusive thoughts.
Meredith Brough (00:39:57) - So much of this has to do with people actually reporting, right? Yes.
Shannon Wilson (00:40:00) - Actually reporting or actually even noticing, because for some people they truly just brush it off like, oh, I have no interest in that. So that's weird., but it can be an indication of so it can be totally normal., or it can be an indication of an anxiety disorder and people who have a lot of intrusive thoughts and who are highly distressed by those are at much more risk for the development of perinatal OCD.
Shannon Wilson (00:40:28) - Gotcha., which is one of my subspecialty areas.
Meredith Brough (00:40:31) - Okay.
Shannon Wilson (00:40:32) - Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:40:33) - And probably talk about that a lot. Right.
Shannon Wilson (00:40:35) - I could talk about that for hours for sure.
Meredith Brough (00:40:38) - Well, do you want to just briefly give a couple of warning signs for that one? You just mentioned one, right.
Shannon Wilson (00:40:44) - Yeah. Yeah. So intrusive thoughts, that feel really scary to you and that you have a really hard time letting go of and maybe you're even,, acting your reacting to them in that. Okay, well, I had an intrusive thought about,, dropping my baby down the stairs, so now I'm really afraid to go. Go down the stairs or now I'm like, holding my baby really tight. Or I had an intrusive thought about drowning my baby in the bathtub. And so now I'm having my partner do baths because I'm so scared of what I might do., and so the thing about perinatal OCD is it is,. It's more common. It's becoming more,, it. OCD is more likely to develop during the perinatal time period than during at any during any other time of life.
Shannon Wilson (00:41:37) - Oh, yeah. Well, I know it's wild, isn't it? And it kind of exists on a spectrum. And so if we can intervene early, then that can help. So it's not really developing into,, you know, full blown OCD where it becomes kind of debilitating for a lot of people and it can really impact quality of life.
Meredith Brough (00:42:01) - Well, that's really powerful stuff that there's intervention. There's like it was me hope for people that yeah, talk about this more that where people can,, avoid the debilitating part..
Shannon Wilson (00:42:14) - Yes, yes. It's huge.
Meredith Brough (00:42:17) - . Well what about psychosis. Postpartum psychosis. Is that is that common?
Shannon Wilson (00:42:22) - Super rare., it's very rare. It happens in 1 or 2 out of every thousand births., and typically there is going to be some sort of history of,, a psychotic disorder or,, it, it develops within the first week or two postpartum., it's not something that develops six months down the road, typically., and it can be exacerbated by pretty extreme sleep deprivation in those first few weeks.
Meredith Brough (00:43:01) - Yeah, that makes sense., you know, that actually just reminded me of another question that comes up in my work, and it's people expecting that they can't get postpartum depression or anxiety later when baby's closer to one. Or maybe, you know, eight months or even into that second year. What's the what's the real truth there? Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:43:25) - So the real truth is that the perinatal time frame is up to two years, and some people are even extending that a little bit.
Meredith Brough (00:43:34) - , breastfeeding.
Shannon Wilson (00:43:36) - Yeah. Breastfeeding. And just the changes, right, that we're going through pretty, pretty quickly as our babies grow and develop., so yeah, the perinatal time frame is two years. Develop it. It's developed around., going back to work or at the time that they start weaning and they have some hormonal changes. So it can really kind of happen anywhere in there.
Meredith Brough (00:44:02) - Yeah. And I think that's so important to know. I've helped many people who did really well, at least, you know, past those first few weeks.
Meredith Brough (00:44:10) - And then here we are at month six or 7 or 8 and they're thinking they're not at risk and it just hits them like a wall.
Shannon Wilson (00:44:16) - So yes.
Meredith Brough (00:44:18) - It's good to know. I'm just excited to hear how you and one other therapist. The proper training. How can you help families explain why the training matters?
Shannon Wilson (00:44:27) - Yeah, so the training matters because this is such a unique time of life., and there are a lot of different things that are happening all at once and different, you know, as a perinatal specialist, I see not only mood disorders, but also, as you mentioned, birth trauma. I see women who are dealing with fertility difficulties., dealing with stillbirth, infant loss, pregnancy loss. And so there's a lot of. Really unique factors that as a therapist, it's helpful for me to know that language. It's helpful for me to know some of the medical things that are going on during pregnancy lactation, loss, trauma delivery, all of that. And so,, you know, I have more of that training.
Shannon Wilson (00:45:20) - And so clients don't have to spend as much time explaining to me, okay, well, I had this complication during my pregnancy., sometimes they do because I don't I haven't encountered it or I don't know what it is, but a lot of times I know what they're talking about., and so the training, being able to assess certain things, certain factors, all of that really helps. And developing the treatment plan for the client., because if they're dealing with sleep deprivation, then that's something we really need to address right away, because that's going to help stabilize other symptoms that they're experiencing.
Meredith Brough (00:45:58) - , it's super important that, you know, the red flags, that, you know, the differences between, you know, typical depression and anxiety or,, just know how to help people feel better, right?
Shannon Wilson (00:46:09) - Yes, yes. Yeah. And being able to just. Provide a really supportive and non-judgmental space, because I think moms feel so judged so much of the time with whatever choice they're making, right? No matter what the choice is, there's there can be a lot of judgment where there can be a lot of judgment from society, judgment from family members, well-meaning friends.
Shannon Wilson (00:46:38) - And so to have a space to be able to process things in a really neutral way and just get support is really, really important.
Meredith Brough (00:46:48) - Yeah, I love that. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about what are the things that the plans that you make with moms. You've kind of talked about it already, but, anything you want to.
Shannon Wilson (00:46:58) - Add to that. So what we we look at kind of the normal stuff postpartum, we look at any risk factors they might have if they've been pregnant before and they've had postpartum stuff before. We look at, okay, what what was that? How can we minimize risk for that this time around? I like to bring partners in for these sessions too and talk about okay, what concerns do you have going into it. And some people are like, I don't even know. And some people are like, okay, I have concerns about communication. I have concerns about, you know, all these other things we talk about if if it is a woman who has a lot of anxiety or who is, you know, kind of more leaning towards the need for control in terms of personality.
Shannon Wilson (00:47:43) - We talk about things like maternal gatekeeping and how to,, communicate through that as a couple., and just anyone's unique,, fears that they might have surrounding childbirth and early postpartum we will address. Awesome.
Meredith Brough (00:48:05) - So, yeah, you talked earlier about how,, sleep's super important about, you know, asking for help is super important about getting outside, eating foods. Am I missing anything? Still recap.
Shannon Wilson (00:48:19) - Yeah. No, all that's a great., the other thing would be identifying who are good supports for you and so specifically who might be really good physical supports who can come in. And if you really need help with a load of laundry or dishes, or you need someone to hold the baby while you shower, who can be that person and who can be a good person for emotional support? And those people might be very different people, right? Because we all have relationships that serve different purposes in our life. And so who can you specifically identify that you might be able to reach out to? And then do you need to also talk with that person beforehand?, do any prep in that relationship to say like, hey, is it okay if I reach out to you if I'm struggling emotionally after birth, just to kind of set some of those things up?
Meredith Brough (00:49:09) - That's great.
Meredith Brough (00:49:10) - Well, I had fun on asking you for a tip, and that was a really great one. Is there anything else that you wanted to add?
Shannon Wilson (00:49:16) - No, I guess I would just reiterate if you are worried about how you're feeling, reach out.
Meredith Brough (00:49:22) - Yeah that's great.
Shannon Wilson (00:49:23) - There are a lot of resources now, whether it's online resources or local resources. And so just reach out.
Meredith Brough (00:49:31) - It's a better world than when I first met you. And I'm so happy to say that we have a long way to go. But it's a better world. And that's really exciting. Yeah. It is so glad there's more resources. So, Shannon, can you tell my listeners how they can find you, especially if they're in the Cedar Rapids area to work with you or to or maybe even what your resources are?
Shannon Wilson (00:49:52) - Yeah., so I co-own MWR counseling in, we're in Hiawatha, but pretty much interchangeable with Cedar Rapids, Iowa., and so our website is MWRCounseling.com- so there's myself and then we have a couple of other therapists who also do perinatal work.
Shannon Wilson (00:50:17) - , so I have been taking on a few new clients currently. You can find us on Instagram and on Facebook. Our counseling- we are not just a perinatal specific practice. So you will see lots of things posted on our social media. Yeah.
Meredith Brough (00:50:35) - I love that. But I also, I know you work with couples or your office does. You work with people in general, but also got someone there for,, menopause, right? And someone or at least some people who work with the pregnant moms, right?
Shannon Wilson (00:50:50) - Yeah, we do all of the. So if you're coming in for any, you know, reproductive type of stuff, then we can we can assist with that. And we can always to refer out. So if it is more of a hormonal issue versus a mental health issue, and we know they're so connected,, we can also refer you out to very knowledgeable providers.
Meredith Brough (00:51:13) - That's awesome. Okay. Well. Thank you. If you'd like to work with Shannon or one of the therapists in her office, look them up at MWR counseling.
Meredith Brough (00:51:21) - Com and you can find out more about what they teach and and their tips and insight at MWR Counseling on Instagram and Facebook. Right. Yes. Okay. Well, thank you, Shannon, for being here and sharing your extensive knowledge and experience your passion with us. Really enjoyed this. Yeah.
Shannon Wilson (00:51:40) - Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate getting to spread the word.
Meredith Brough (00:51:43) - Yay! I know this is really exciting. So thank you listeners for being here. I can't wait to share another episode with you next week. Until then, I will see you soon. Thanks for listening to the Sweet Slumber podcast. We hope you enjoyed today's show. Before you go, please leave a review and hit subscribe and have a great day!
