ARCHITECTURALLY SPEAKING - EPISODE 7
Immersive Habitats: New Models for Zoo Design
Ryan Schwartz 00:04
Hello, and welcome back. This is your host of Architecturally Speaking, Ryan Schwartz, and we're back with another episode. And this is one that I've really been looking forward to. But maybe you're new here and you don't know what architecturally speaking is all about. Well, it's a new podcast series created by the Ontario Association of Architects, to pull back the curtain on the profession of architecture, the field of architecture, and give you a little peek behind the scenes. So we're talking to architects, we're talking to other folks in the industry, we're talking about design and sustainability, about housing and buildings, and how those buildings affect our lives each and every single day. So if you haven't checked out the previous episodes, I encourage you to do that they're great. But today, we're talking about something a little bit different and a little more unique than your typical office tower or condo building. And it's an animal habitat at the Toronto Zoo. And we're lucky enough to have Edward Chan with us here today to discuss it and tell us all about it. So, Edward, welcome.
Edward Chan 00:59
Thanks, Ryan. It's a pleasure to be to participate and to share our experiences on this project. Yeah,
Ryan Schwartz 01:05
Thanks for taking the time and for joining us. So I did a little bit of digging for an introduction for yourself. So you're obviously an architect, and you're a partner at Zeidler. You started out in landscape architecture, and you have quite a bit of experience in healthcare as well. But maybe the best way to introduce you is just to let you do that. So tell us a little bit about your your role and how you got to where you are today.
Edward Chan 01:29
Great. No, I think it's interesting, he keyed in on the landscape, because we're talking about the Toronto, the Toronto Zoo project. Yeah, and the ranking thing, habitat is a bit of the color cross section of landscape and architecture, which is really hitting hitting my sweet spot, they say. And so no, I, you know, I started landscape architect and practice for a few years and then went, went to grad school and to basically train as an architect and, and really carry that to, to kind of sister disciplines, and really bring that a different perspective how, you know, the built environment, can be done through the lens of an architect and the landscape architect for say, it's joined the Zeidler, in 2017, as a partner, and actually this year, it's the either 70th anniversary as a practicing office under whenever, you know, our former co founder of Zeidler, when he first had his name on the door, so we're selling our 70th anniversary. And, you know, we're living through kind of, you know, legacy in terms of being having fingerprints and footprints crossed the Canadian landscape in terms of cultural iconic and landmark projects. I think the Trump described as the project is no different. It's, you know, part of potentially a cultural landmark is what when you design the Ontario Place, and the Coleen center in Canada, place here in Vancouver, BC. So, ya know, I'm, I've spent a lot of my, my career doing projects with people they say, in the kind of institutional markets and building types. This one it although it's institutional, in terms of nature, under the cultural but much different terms of the types of user that call it. Yeah,
Ryan Schwartz 03:16
yeah. And we'll get into that, for sure. I'm kind of excited about that. So it's interesting, you're talking about all these different projects. I think when a lot of people think about architects they think, Oh, we design fancy houses and offices and things like that, but just the the variety and the scale of projects that architects tackle, it's it's pretty incredible. And I think this one, you know, kind of falls outside that that normal box for sure. Right. It's it's pretty unique. So describe the project a little bit. What what are we talking about in terms of this this habitat at the zoo?
Edward Chan 03:48
Yeah. I mean, she reads, I mean, it's the habitat but I mean, if you just think about the word and the definition habitat, I mean, really, it's, it's a place for living, I mean, it may have more connotations towards the natural environment, organic beings, organic animals and beings, but you know, really have to think back to you know, mostly softy habitats. 67 are really, you know, doing this project is no different than what an architect would do designing a building or a house, for example. So we really feel it kind of like, it is kind of like it overlaps, I guess the best way to say it, so I think this would not, although it was not designed for humans, it wasn't, I would say completely outside of our comfort zone. It did stretch imagination, I would say we did work with a associate architectural landscape company that actually does a lot of projects around the world with with animal habitats and it was a great collaboration. I think one of these and what we're starting to see in their kind of architectural world I think this is for good for people and it gets in in the public to understand that the products are just gonna get more complex, and just exactly every project and, and they really kind of span terms of many different stakeholders, users, requirements. And you know, I think finding a lot more projects, they did levels of expertise between different architects and I think there's a kind of, there's a new kind of way of collaborating now, and I think this is really making projects, quite exciting. A lot of interest between architects, I would say, even between the owners and the contractor think there's that's kind of that new, it's a new way of architecture starting to begin to kind of unfold itself. And I think for this particular project, it was really a collaboration that spawned originally at the Calgary Zoo. And we did a our office with Jones and Jones, is work on was called a Panda Passage with the carriage and kind of coincidentally, it was the legacy of the panda exhibit, or habitat, sorry, would be meant for an orangutan habitat. So there was a bit of a coincidence behind him I don't think, okay, intention on terms of doing this project for Toronto zoo, but, but it was intention it actually that project in Calgary, a one the not one, but it was certified the pedal for kind of this one of the, sorry I forget the top of my head, but pa the the kind of the certification, but it wasn't how to pedal certified. And, you know, it was it was kind of like just starting with that of the type of work that we've done across the country. Actually, even the very first project was the was in Calgary zoo with called the African savannah project. That was back in early 2000s. And that would be for them. I think the giraffes were in that habitat too. So so this project kind of started with the ability to create more spaces for the existing orangutan species in the zoo, because if you're not familiar, the currently the orangutan their habitat is inside the end domain, which is, you know, a beautiful building designed by Ron Tom, the famous Canadian architect, and, and the ability to create spaces that were actually outdoor spaces, I mean, these these animals, and these species are their original, their actual, you know, original half that is in the rainforests and need that space in the space. And even in Indonesia, the Samatra. And these are Samatra orangutan. And so there was an it was a real kind of an opportinity to create a new, kind of an outdoor habitat space, to be honest, and neither animals from data were born prepared to be in the, the eldest, she didn't have her been outside in on fees, but at the Toronto Zoo, so this is a great opportunity, and then kind of extending, we can go on to talk more into the details, but I think just the genesis of the project was really to create an exterior space that will give an opportunity for the orangutan to feel like they're in their natural environment, or the habitat of this air, right. So it's kind of like providing a new space and in the species are kind of semi solitary. So it's not necessarily like creating a space, and they're all kind of convening, they actually want to, because they're semi solitary animals, they, they don't like to hang out with each other, per se, anything. Yeah, it's like a, like a teenager, and you need your own space. And so the opportunity to create that for this project. And so the eventuality, when when they get a little bit more climatized, to the or their, their environment, they will start, you know, being in different spaces, and then the great opportunities actually have all the orangutans be able to be eaten in any one of the habitats that kind of exists, which is the existing interior one, or the new exterior habitat. So I think that's a really great opportunity for this project.
Ryan Schwartz 08:41
Okay, and you alluded to a couple a couple things I want to touch on there. So you clearly have done some, some previous work with with animal habitats and things like that. I'm so ignorant with these new projects, I have no idea how they work like do you? Do you roll into the city of Toronto and say, Hey, we're looking for a building permit for you know, a panda enclosure? Or like, how does that how does that even work?
Edward Chan 09:04
It's parked on this one ditch, think of the good point that essentially is an exterior habitat project and there are elements that are building and so yes, he goes through a traditional building permit really, but it's really for those aspects that are called Building and through what in this project would be the research station and then the and then the the the transitional holding area. And then the other part of it, we call it special structures like you know we'd be bridges fall under special structure. So it's a bit of a hybrid. So I guess again, this makes this project even more unique because it isn't your traditionally you go into building permit and get your mechanical electrical permits and but even the inspector had to really understand how to kind of walk through the site and what to look at for closing this permit out. But ya know, it would fall under like a building permit and we had a review of special structures.
Ryan Schwartz 09:57
Okay, interesting. So I imagined the zoo is similar in some ways to something like an airport because you have these very clear delineated areas for for guests, people that are traveling through, you can't just wander through security, much like you can't wander into the tiger enclosure. So there's, there's a lot happening behind the scenes that you don't necessarily get to see your, as a visitor, you're, you're sort of limited to this very curated experience. But I'm sure there's a lot of challenges and things to incorporate behind the scenes. So tell me a bit about the other things that you're including here, like vet care and feeding and things like that.
Edward Chan 10:30
Yeah. So I mean, the project really started, like I said, we affectionately call them the view team. And it's, it's made up of the wildlife care team, the facilities team and the the guest experience team. And actually, even Dolph, who's the CEO of the Toronto Zoo, was very involved in the very beginning. And one of the one word I always recall and then kind of reverberates with me is that, wow, you need to have that wow. And when eventually we didn't know what that meant yet, as we were developing the design and think organically came on and actually ended up being the what we thought was the WoW was the span between two poles across the ravine, which 70 meters long, which probably one of its kind was the wow but we always think the whole habitat in general was or Willie walk, because you have all these poles that kind of span between inner habitat outside of habitat were the guests could see the rain things above them to see them at eye level or below. So a lot of them were really the, the the real kind of objective kind of concept was to develop a habitat that created immersion. And I think back to that, when I talked about the, the Toronto Zoo's mission about conservation, that that immersive feeling was really to get the guest, the visitor to really feel like that they were participating inside the rainforest as really as almost as one as one of the species of orangutan. And it's really, I think it's one of those things where you start to feel like you're in you know, in someone's, you know, own home, you feel it that you want to do something to protect that home, you're in their home. Any idea Yeah, idea conservation, and that really what that call to action and so, you know, I'm the immersion of the guests coming come from the interior habitat, which is in the existing pavillion. Then come into this plaza, seeing, you know, the rain things potentially above you with those two poles outside, and then kind of, you know, go into different viewing points. And then you kind of walking your way up to the, you know, the new new tree house, so we call it. And the idea that and I think as the landscape is growing in, you'll really feel that emerge, and as kind of you start feeling the plants, you know, tactically and visually coming along that and really the idea that you were starting to kind of ascend up into the rainforest into the elements into the higher aerial elements, and that was kind of the emerging experience and that was part of the call the guest experience but and then with the, with Habitat design itself was really how do you create this as organic, and as I call it, as real life as possible to to the Sumatran rainforest. And that that's really what it is. And it's really now obviously, we couldn't create the tea in terms of like the climate structures, and actually we're in a Canadian environment, but it really just kind of having the ability to mimic that and that was really kind of the drivers for the project and it was a very organic feeling. So there were a lot of running water in there a lot of different terrain to kind of keep that interest for the species and that was really what what was the driver of the project release create the interests create the variety and I think fundamentally, the one big idea was not to have the person or visitor to see the entire habitat with one view. So they will always have to kind of piece that experience together when they would come back and then we really try to have the ability to to to to want to come back and know where you're not once you Yeah, not have you Yep. Yeah.
Ryan Schwartz 14:22
I love that you talked about this this wow factor in the immersion because in looking this up, I saw that there's a little play area outside for visitors for guests. And it's got some some ropes and things and I can just imagine little kids going in you're watching these apes and and then on the way out, they're just mimicking what they see. They're probably climbing around so tell us a little bit about about that.
Edward Chan 14:45
Yeah, in the the kids play area, I mean could even be the adult player to it. Interestingly, we were trying to make make it as as a one to one as what's inside. because well, because it's an area in said habitat where you kind of look around that particular viewing area. So they're almost adjacent to each other. And there was the idea that to kind of create that, again, back to that original, immersive experience. And then using the theme, tree like climbing materials as well, so that it didn't feel like it was a prescribed children's play area. It just felt like it was natural. And you just wanted to just experience and explore and just kind of how the orangutans would do that in their own habitat. Yeah, that was really the intention of the of the children's play area, I call it or I like to call it human play area. Yeah.
Ryan Schwartz 15:40
And you touched on this a little bit with the the landscape. And obviously, that's a big part of this. So I mean, was there a landscape? or Yes, you said there was a consultant involved? I guess it was a landscape architect.
Edward Chan 15:51
That was Jones & Jones, they both they did they supported the subject matter expert, and they were the landscape lead concept designers
Ryan Schwartz 15:59
So yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. I mean, there's obviously you can't just have Canadian trees in there. And it's, you know, what kinds of things did you have to bring in? Or what kind of research went into this?
Edward Chan 16:09
Yeah, well, we actually had, we did have to use the native plants because it didn't. So we did, we were trying to, what we were trying to do was fine. plants that have the same kind of foliage or experience that would be in a tropical color rainforest. But though, obviously was surviving in Canada, and so. So it was kind of I would call it, it was a nice little hybrid of obviously, we're trying to create the experience of an organic habitat, but it was really obviously, in the Canadian context, even in some extent, it was trying to give a bit of a different good modernist vernacular to kind of a South Asian would be some South Asian type of architecture monocular, which is similar to that.
Ryan Schwartz 16:55
Okay. So in this case, the zoo is obviously the client, but you have multiple sort of user groups that are that are using this on a daily basis, you have people coming to visit, you have staff that's working there, and obviously you have animals that live there. So how do you really balance the the design? When this is all playing out? How do you balance that split between these three different groups and, and make sure that everyone's happy and satisfied?
Edward Chan 17:18
Yeah, I mean, goes back to the zoo team that I mentioned, we're, we're the cross section of the wildlife care facilities team, and the guest experience team. And you know, a lot of a lot of the early kind of thinking design thinking was around, it was all three workshopping, and in the zoo, they have such a collaborative group that they do understand, you know, obviously animals first is, is, is the real thinking when you start designing it, but you know, it's obviously centered around the guest experience. And it really became that organic, it was a something that the, you know, I go even some something traditional project, where, you know, architect comes with idea, you have a, you have a program and you come up with idea, there wasn't really a prescribed program per se, just you know, let's let's create a habitat for for their anything's and let them research space. And that's an you know, that was a really yet and not so not like a you need a, you know, how many washrooms or you need in a classroom per se. And so I think it was, it was probably one of the few I'd say total open collaborative, just organically came through and and get some that experience with that while at the, the zoo team that allowed us to kind of really start that design thinking and it was. And then I think that's where that spawned that. That second, we call it the or the second habitat, which is the two poles that go outside across the ravine. And in that that particular aspect of the project really was organic. It wasn't something that came out from the early days of this design thinking and it I think that's, to that extent to think it was that that became the wow, but it was just because it was just something organic wasn't necessity, we had to create that it was just an opportunity, we thought this would be amazing if we could do this and really connect that interior existing pavilion habitat, and really allow it to expand and have the have the habitat and in a day become an extension, and really be almost, again, back to the idea of the merge the merge and really extend that beyond, you know, its original boundaries, say,
Ryan Schwartz 19:23
And you mentioned research, so I'm assuming the zoo does tons of this stuff. I'm sure there's researchers there all the time, has their even, has there been any feedback coming in yet through through visitors or through the researchers themselves? Or, you know, what, what kind of feedback have you gotten?
Edward Chan 19:39
The haven't seen any research, but it's more kind of observation. I mean, right now, it's a lot of observation and because of the aclimatized, the orangutans so, one of the first tactics they were, first of all, they've never had experienced things being outside so it was really getting them out of that comfort zone. But yeah, they relied on Poupee, the eldest who would be kind of like, the follower let's call it, being ASAN also the also the dominant female rain tank, so they had Poupee out and to experience and start investigating the habitat. And now what was the using as a behavioral was like that would hopefully would draw other rang things and eventually did actually started doing that they the project was finished in early July of 2023. And so they didn't have much time to acclimatize because of the weather in Canada. And, you know, they're they, they'd like to have a mean temperature of about 12 degrees didn't like, the full day and night. So, you know, there was really a short period from accclimatize, I'm, we're expecting that this this coming year, when they have a little bit more of a full fuller year, they'll start to acclimatize. And then that research, the intention of that research station, where we have the you know, we have researchers and trainers kind of interacting with orangutans, and visitors can actually give feedback, they can start seeing some of it's the behavioral research that hopefully that will come up with the design of new habitat.
Ryan Schwartz 21:06
That's great. Yeah, I guess so it's only been open about a year or so yeah, take some time to, to really just like, you know, move into a new house, it takes time to get comfortable. So you've done a couple similar projects before any other projects like this on the horizon, anything coming up for more habitats or anything like that.
Edward Chan 21:25
Interestingly, yeah. We have one more project, which we feel that could be as just as transformational. For the Toronto Zoo, we're, we're underway on the new it's called the Community Conservation Campus. And it's essentially the new face for the Toronto Zoo. And it's, it's two new buildings that have a an otter habitat, incorporated in in one of the buildings and the intention is the building would be both a research, guest experience and kind of an academic and civic space for the Toronto Zoo and, and in the community of the of the zoo, which would be East Toronto and Scarborough. And, and it really is an idea, it breaks down the notion of what a an entrance to a to a zoo is about now. And so it actually has. One building is is is partnered with University Toronto Scarborough and there'll be research labs, and classrooms, and it's all mass timber, as we kind of play more into our action, our you know, our responsibility as architects for climate, climate action, and so let me all mass timber, and then one project we'll do the building would be for guests experience, which would be retail, and there's an odor habitat integrated into the building. And so it'd be a bit free flowing, see, when you walk through the main entrance to the Toronto Zoo, it really start feeling a, again, a bacteria that's Mersive. And it's kind of this democratic, non democratic a sorry, a democratic experience to the zoo, where if you you know, depending on your your social economical situation, you can still experience the zoo and really feel part of the zoo and not have and while not actually having to, you know, have to have a paid admission, you can experience the otter experience, you know, the turtle conservation labs, and really be part of the the messaging that drones you're trying to bring forward. As the new Zoo in Canada.
Ryan Schwartz 23:22
That's great. And you mentioned the the habitats for these animals and sustainability and climate change and things like that. And obviously, that's always a factor. And in doing a bit of research for this, you know, I, I couldn't help but think about sort of the moral aspect of this year, you're creating kind of an animal enclosure, and there's probably some challenges with that. But also, it kind of reaches back to that idea of conservation and education. So what are what are your thoughts on on that? And how that all fits together?
Edward Chan 23:49
Yeah, I mean, I think I think you I mean, yeah, did there are a lot has always been that kind of criticism of zoos, about the, the the types of facilities or that the animals might be in why I think this project is trying to break ground on this one is actually creating new spaces that are free and feel like their habitat or natural habitat and an experience of actually being outdoors. You know, we're trying to give opportunities beyond just their existing indoor habitat. So I think this was a great opportunity to really, for the Toronto Zoo to kind of demonstrate that, you know, under kind of the idea of conservation, and really, their main mission was about giving opportunities for animals to feel like that they're in their natural habitat, as best as they can. Obviously, we live and people have in Canada. This is not Indonesia. But I think that's what the idea of this project and then even with the new project that were that was to talk about the Community Conservation campus is really creating this. The habitats, give them like for example, the otter that would give them freedom and not feel like they call it captive.
Ryan Schwartz 25:04
Yeah, I think that's an important distinction between these, you know, calling something a habitat and designing without aspiration versus, you know, calling it an enclosure or in calling it you know, it's a, it's an exhibit right? On display. So that's, you know, it's an important distinction. I think we're starting to run short here on time. So, Edward, I just want to thank you again, for your time. Is there anything that you want to shout out? Or if people want to get in touch? Any place where where they can reach?
Edward Chan 25:32
Yeah, I mean, I would love them to come through our website and see all the other interesting projects that we're doing not only just in the, the animal in the zoo habitat, we're actually we're also involved in a very interesting project in in Ottawa, we're from the design competition for the the block two project and for the, for the Parliamentary Precinct, I think that's going to be a very fascinating project when it's completed. So I think people can definitely look at the Ziedler website, and financing projects and what we're doing. And again, this is our seventh anniversary, so we're going to be putting things on the website and just kind of broadcasting through our social media channels. So I'd say look out for it.
Ryan Schwartz 26:11
Perfect, excellent. And go to the zoo, those people listening, if you haven't been go check out the orangutan habitat at the Toronto Zoo. Definitely worth spending a day wandering around there and exploring. So that wraps up this episode, we've been chatting with Edward Chan. He's an architect and partner at Zeidler architecture. We'll be recording more episodes of the next few months. So stay tuned for some fresh episodes coming your way. If you have a question or you want to provide some feedback, or just simply get in touch, you can send us an email at podcast at OAA.on.ca. And you can also find out more about the Ontario Association of Architects and how it regulates architecture through the province of Ontario by visiting OAA.on.ca. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review. Tell your friends. That's how we'll be able to make more episodes in the future. And of course, architecturally speaking, is available wherever you get your podcasts and also on the OAA's YouTube channel. So check that out for the full video version of today's conversation. And until next time, I'm your host Ryan Schwartz and this has been architecturally speaking, thanks