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Career Path: From ED Transporter to Nurse Manager
A determined nurse shares her journey from working as a transporter in the emergency department to landing the nurse manager position in Cleveland Clinic’s newly opened Mentor Hospital.
A determined nurse shares her journey from working as a transporter in the emergency department to landing the nurse manager position in Cleveland Clinic’s newly opened Mentor Hospital.
Carol Pehotsky (00:05):
One of the beauties of nursing is all the different directions it can take you. But with that and all the possibilities that nursing offers, it can sometimes be hard to know when it's time to make a change or which direction you'd like to go. I'm joined today by Angie Chahofsky to talk more about how to trust your gut, assess your skills, and figure out the next way to go.
(00:27):
Hi, and welcome to Nurse Essentials, a Cleveland Clinic podcast where we discuss all things nursing. From patient care, to advancing your career, to navigating tough on-the-job issues. We're so glad you're here. I'm your host, Carol Pehotsky, Associate Chief Nursing Officer of Surgical Services Nursing.
(00:48):
Welcome back everyone. If you've been listening since the beginning, you know that it took me a little longer to come to nursing than some people. And as someone who has a bit of a different journey, one of my canned response is when somebody asks me, "Well, why?" Uh, you know, my canned response is usually something like, "It took me a long time to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up." Which usually is followed by a joke or something about, I'm not quite a grown up yet, so I'm open to (laughs) other ideas.
(01:10):
But all kidding aside, for me, I really needed those other careers and life experiences first. It really helped me understand what nursing was all about and that I wanted to be part of it. And it really informed and informs the care and the leadership I provide, I think. So, it's my great pleasure to introduce you all today to Angie Chahofsky. She is a nurse manager at our brand new Mentor Hospital in the Emergency Department. Angie, welcome.
Angie (01:37):
Thank you for having me.
Carol Pehotsky (01:38):
Yes, of course. So, your own career has taken a few twists and turns. Why don't you tell us a little bit more about that journey, please?
Angie (01:44):
Sure. So, starting out into healthcare, I didn't really have any guidance.
Carol Pehotsky (01:48):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (01:48):
I had this idea of perspective of what I wanted to be and as a nurse.
Carol Pehotsky (01:48):
Okay.
Angie (01:52):
And so, without that guidance or even mentorship, I took the opportunity to start doing my research. What is an entry level position? How do I get my foot in the door?
Carol Pehotsky (02:01):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (02:02):
What skills do I need in that kind of motivated And prepared me for the confidence to apply and I started out as a transporter in the emergency department.
Carol Pehotsky (02:12):
Oh, wow.
Angie (02:13):
Got my foot in the door and stepped foot into the emergency department.
Carol Pehotsky (02:17):
Yeah. Wow.
Angie (02:17):
And it was an experience.
Carol Pehotsky (02:19):
(laughs) That's a lot of research right there.
Angie (02:19):
Yes. Huge experience just from the get go, seeing the nurses...
Carol Pehotsky (02:24):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (02:24):
... perform and just their role motivated me and kind of reassured me that this is...
Carol Pehotsky (02:25):
Oh, excellent.
Angie (02:30):
... for sure my aspiration to...
Carol Pehotsky (02:30):
Okay.
Angie (02:32):
... to be a nurse.
Carol Pehotsky (02:32):
All right.
Angie (02:33):
Moving from there, I kind of got exposure to different roles within then...
Carol Pehotsky (02:34):
Yeah.
Angie (02:37):
... the hospital setting. Also started building relationships with the people I worked with and being able to kind of get guidance at that point.
Carol Pehotsky (02:44):
Excellent.
Angie (02:45):
And what's the next kind of opportunity and being a PCT and then kind of, you know, How do I get into nursing school and getting that guidance.
Carol Pehotsky (02:54):
So just to pause for a second, so PCT like a patient care tech, or...
Angie (02:57):
Correct? Oh, yes.
Carol Pehotsky (02:57):
... an unlicensed care nurse.
Angie (02:58):
Yes.
Carol Pehotsky (02:58):
Excellent.
Angie (02:59):
So going from there I kept my aspirations just focused on that I wanted-
Carol Pehotsky (02:59):
Sure.
Angie (03:04):
... to be a nurse and then now I knew I wanted to be an ER nurse.
Carol Pehotsky (03:06):
All right.
Angie (03:07):
But from there, going forward, I really focused on how do I, you know, make the biggest impact in what I'm currently doing. And I think that had a lot to do with getting recognition...
Carol Pehotsky (03:08):
Okay.
Angie (03:19):
... for, you know, for the, what my current role was, my, my skill level responsibilities. It really built that awareness that you could be a leader at any role...
Carol Pehotsky (03:28):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (03:29):
... any position.
Carol Pehotsky (03:30):
Yeah.
Angie (03:30):
And through, you know, even being when I was a transporter, I got recognition and employee of the month.
Carol Pehotsky (03:36):
Wonderful. All right.
Angie (03:36):
And getting recognition...
Carol Pehotsky (03:36):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (03:37):
... kind of moving on, growing into the next role. And what, what skills do I need, what certifications do I need? Kind of seeking those opportunities...
Carol Pehotsky (03:37):
Okay.
Angie (03:46):
... to advance. And then obviously gaining others to, you know, "Hey," that, "her work ethic is great." Or, or kind of to be able to speak for that and support-
Carol Pehotsky (03:46):
Sure.
Angie (03:55):
... that and really helped me advance...
Carol Pehotsky (03:56):
Okay.
Angie (03:56):
... throughout my career.
Carol Pehotsky (03:57):
Okay. And so you became a nurse.
Angie (03:59):
Yes.
Carol Pehotsky (04:00):
Were you still in Illinois at the time?
Angie (04:01):
Yes.
Carol Pehotsky (04:01):
Okay. Mm-hmm.
Angie (04:02):
So I became a nurse and at that time I had worked within the hospital setting about six years.
Carol Pehotsky (04:09):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (04:09):
And at that time, they did not take nurses into specialty of critical care, emergency room, ICU-
Carol Pehotsky (04:10):
Oh, okay.
Angie (04:15):
... stuff like that. They, you know, it was really...
Carol Pehotsky (04:17):
Oh, how times have changed.
Angie (04:18):
I know.
Carol Pehotsky (04:18):
(laughs)
Angie (04:19):
Right? And it was one of the biggest obstacle challenges 'cause I was just set on, I knew where I wanted to be.
Carol Pehotsky (04:20):
Yeah.
Angie (04:27):
I know, I knew at this point who I was, this is...
Carol Pehotsky (04:27):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (04:29):
I wanted to be an ER nurse. And so it was really trying to, how do I get to where I want to be?
Carol Pehotsky (04:29):
Right.
Angie (04:35):
And I interviewed many places.
Carol Pehotsky (04:38):
Okay.
Angie (04:38):
You know, my own hospital, very, very supportive, but also is, like...
Carol Pehotsky (04:41):
Wow.
Angie (04:42):
... "Hey, you have to go up and patient, really set that foundation of nursing."
Carol Pehotsky (04:46):
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Angie (04:46):
And I was determined.
Carol Pehotsky (04:47):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (04:47):
So I actually applied many places, definitely felt that rejection, but I didn't let it really define me.
Carol Pehotsky (04:56):
Yeah.
Angie (04:56):
I just, I kept trying and I had the opportunity, someone took a chance on me.
Carol Pehotsky (04:57):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (05:01):
And I took a position in Chicagoland area in a hospital, it's a community hospital, huge exposure though...
Carol Pehotsky (05:09):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (05:09):
... to a lot of different nursing skills.
Carol Pehotsky (05:09):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (05:11):
And from there I was able to grow, find a niche within nursing.
Carol Pehotsky (05:16):
Okay.
Angie (05:16):
So I became a preceptor.
Carol Pehotsky (05:18):
Oh, yeah. Great.
Angie (05:18):
And that was kind of then...
Carol Pehotsky (05:18):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (05:19):
... started to, I started to learn more about myself. What, what, you know, I enjoyed within nursing itself. And I really liked that team building, you know, mentoring somebody else now, being... You know, not only are you accountable for yourself, now you're accountable for somebody else's development.
Carol Pehotsky (05:19):
(laughs) That right. Yep.
Angie (05:19):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (05:33):
"Well, Angie told me..."
Angie (05:35):
Yes. (laughs)
Carol Pehotsky (05:35):
Yes.
Angie (05:36):
And that kind of sparked that interest. And then I kind of continued advancing...
Carol Pehotsky (05:41):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (05:41):
My manager at the time, too, sought out, you know, opportunities to kind of, that was presented to me to be a really great charge nurse, and kind of-
Carol Pehotsky (05:41):
Uh, all right.
Angie (05:49):
... that opportunity, you know, others saying...
Carol Pehotsky (05:51):
Ooh, charge nurse and ED?
Angie (05:51):
Yes.
Carol Pehotsky (05:52):
Yeah, that's a special set of skills right there. (laughs)
Angie (05:55):
Right. A lot of critical thinking on the spot...
Carol Pehotsky (05:57):
Yeah, for sure.
Angie (05:57):
... decision making. And...
Carol Pehotsky (05:59):
Yeah.
Angie (05:59):
... taught me the strategic thinking of a nurse manager.
Carol Pehotsky (06:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Angie (06:02):
And so the operations of stuff.
Carol Pehotsky (06:03):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (06:04):
And so those two, it really kind, has molded my path to going back to school.
Carol Pehotsky (06:09):
Okay.
Angie (06:09):
I had initially obtained my associate degree in nursing...
Carol Pehotsky (06:09):
Okay.
Angie (06:13):
... and then went to the bedside. So then it really was that motivation of, "Now, I need to advance my career."
Carol Pehotsky (06:13):
Sure.
Angie (06:18):
You know, "Now, I need to establish..."
Carol Pehotsky (06:19):
... schooling to go along-
Angie (06:20):
"... and keep growing."
Carol Pehotsky (06:20):
... with what you wanted to do.
Angie (06:21):
So going back, went back for my BSN and I took the benefits of, at the time the organization also did tuition reimbursement.
Carol Pehotsky (06:30):
Yes. (laughs)
Angie (06:30):
So, uh, that was a huge, you know, obviously...
Carol Pehotsky (06:32):
Huge, yeah.
Angie (06:32):
... for everyone, the barrier...
Carol Pehotsky (06:34):
Yeah.
Angie (06:34):
... financially to be able to do that.
Carol Pehotsky (06:34):
Yeah.
Angie (06:36):
And during that, I really got to learn again...
Carol Pehotsky (06:39):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (06:39):
... more so about what I wanted to aspire to be.
Carol Pehotsky (06:39):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (06:42):
And I had shared that with my manager at the time.
Carol Pehotsky (06:43):
Okay. Yeah.
Angie (06:45):
And so he actually, there was an opportunity while I had completed my BSN was then deciding to go back to obtain my master's degree.
Carol Pehotsky (06:45):
Just keep rolling. Yep. (laughs)
Angie (06:53):
Right. (laughs) Don't get off this path.
Carol Pehotsky (06:55):
You're just not having a life anyways.
Angie (06:56):
Correct.
Carol Pehotsky (06:56):
So just keep going. (laughs)
Angie (06:57):
And so it went from just sharing that, you know?
Carol Pehotsky (06:58):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (07:00):
"This is kind of now my goal."
Carol Pehotsky (07:02):
Yeah.
Angie (07:02):
And it actually opened up a lot more opportunities, that conversation, that discussion, because then the opportunity for emergency leaders program...
Carol Pehotsky (07:12):
Okay.
Angie (07:12):
... came about within the organization. And my manager knew exactly who to go.
Carol Pehotsky (07:17):
Wonderful. Yeah.
Angie (07:17):
Like, who would be the person for this opportunity. And it really opened that. It was just the framework of exactly preparing myself to be a nurse manager.
Carol Pehotsky (07:18):
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Angie (07:26):
It was just workshop. It's-
Carol Pehotsky (07:28):
All right.
Angie (07:28):
It was a 12-month program...
Carol Pehotsky (07:30):
Wow.
Angie (07:30):
... workshops and building relationships, really getting outside of the emergency department and seeing how other departments...
Carol Pehotsky (07:37):
Right. Yeah.
Angie (07:38):
... other emerging leaders-
Carol Pehotsky (07:39):
Everything is very interconnected. Yes. (laughs)
Angie (07:40):
So it really was a great opportunity for myself to...
Carol Pehotsky (07:44):
Yeah. So what brought you to Cle- the Cleveland area?
Angie (07:46):
So my fiance and his whole family are from Mentor...
Carol Pehotsky (07:50):
Ah. Well, that's very convenient then. (laughs)
Angie (07:51):
... Ohio. And so, he proposed. And so one of us had to make the big kind of change.
Carol Pehotsky (07:57):
Yep.
Angie (07:57):
And so it was a great opportunity to come over here. Being from Chicago, it's not that far away.
Carol Pehotsky (08:03):
No, it's not.
Angie (08:03):
It's pretty similar.
Carol Pehotsky (08:03):
Yes, yep.
Angie (08:03):
And so...
Carol Pehotsky (08:05):
Pick flight or drive. Yep. (laughs)
Angie (08:06):
Yes.
Carol Pehotsky (08:06):
Well, we're very fortunate to have you.
Angie (08:08):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (08:08):
Wonderful.
Angie (08:08):
And so, here at Cleveland Clinic, I got recommendations.
Carol Pehotsky (08:13):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (08:13):
"This is where you want to work."
Carol Pehotsky (08:13):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (08:15):
"This is where you want to place your roots." And so...
Carol Pehotsky (08:15):
... here you are.
Angie (08:17):
... here I am.
Carol Pehotsky (08:18):
That's fantastic. Well, you've said a lot of really wonderful things that I'd love to dig into some more. So especially prior to becoming a nurse. You know the experiences you had as a transporter and a patient care tech. How have those experiences form the type of nurse you are today?
Angie (08:34):
It really let me kind of set goals...
Carol Pehotsky (08:37):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (08:38):
... for as far as what, what the role itself entails.
Carol Pehotsky (08:41):
Okay.
Angie (08:41):
And then it also said I had built the path to where I want to be and kind of what I needed to do to get there as well.
Carol Pehotsky (08:42):
Okay.
Angie (08:47):
I had built a lot of relationships throughout the entire-
Carol Pehotsky (08:49):
Sure.
Angie (08:50):
... hospital...
Carol Pehotsky (08:50):
Yeah.
Angie (08:50):
... being a transporter too.
Carol Pehotsky (08:51):
Yeah, you were everywhere. (laughs)
Angie (08:52):
So I'm everywhere.
Carol Pehotsky (08:53):
No shortages, steps on those shifts. (laughs)
Angie (08:56):
Right, and so it, it really gave me that exposure and other people to kind of highlight, you know, "Hey, th- this would be a great position for you or this."
Carol Pehotsky (08:56):
Sure.
Angie (09:03):
And kind of let opportunities also open themselves for, for advancing.
Carol Pehotsky (09:08):
Yeah. What a rich experience to come to leadership with. So, there's no magic eight ball that would tell you how you would have been a leader if you hadn't had those experiences.
Angie (09:08):
Correct.
Carol Pehotsky (09:15):
But, have you found that enriches your leadership style as well?
Angie (09:18):
Being very transformational, I think that is...
Carol Pehotsky (09:19):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (09:21):
... kind of not only focusing on myself, but how, you know, working within groups or even in, in a team setting, it's not just about yourself. It's about...
Carol Pehotsky (09:30):
Sure.
Angie (09:30):
... everyone on the team...
Carol Pehotsky (09:31):
Yeah.
Angie (09:31):
... and having that awareness. How you, even problem solving.
Carol Pehotsky (09:35):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (09:35):
It's a very collaborative approach and kind of how you get to actually learn and the knowledge and expertise of different, diverse ways of thinking.
Carol Pehotsky (09:36):
Yeah.
Angie (09:45):
And strategic thinking, and it really kind of helps shape and builds...
Carol Pehotsky (09:49):
Yeah.
Angie (09:49):
... being in a nurse manager role, and that's kind of a day to day...
Carol Pehotsky (09:53):
Fu...
Angie (09:53):
... working.
Carol Pehotsky (09:53):
Well, and yeah, when you think about, you know, sometimes people, I think, outside of nursing think nurse manager means I only manage the nurses. (laughs)
Angie (09:59):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (09:59):
But that's really not the case.
Angie (10:01):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (10:01):
And, and making sure every voice that is th- needs to be at the table, is there?
Angie (10:05):
Correct.
Carol Pehotsky (10:05):
Excellent. So, I've gotten this question a lot too, and I'm going to ask it of you as well. (laughs) So, for me, the best way I can describe it in terms of how did I know when I was ready to do something different is I honestly had this restlessness. I, I, I can't really give it much more description than that, but when I, I also started with an associates degree so I felt that restlessness when it was time to go back for my bachelor's and then more restlessness when it was time to go for my master's in different roles. And so that's not very helpful to people, (laughs) I don't think, to say...
Angie (10:06):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (10:34):
... it's a restlessness. So how would you answer that question? How did you know it was time? And how do you help work with your caregivers when they're sort of struggling with, "Is it time to do something different?"
Angie (10:44):
I find that a lot of it was being self motivated.
Carol Pehotsky (10:49):
Okay, sure.
Angie (10:49):
I kind of saw the challenge of...
Carol Pehotsky (10:49):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (10:51):
"Okay, this is the skill I need." Or, "This is what I need to do to attain this position." And once you kind of establish that and accomplish that, now you have this, you know, new box of skills...
Carol Pehotsky (10:51):
Yeah.
Angie (11:00):
... and stuff like that. And you're like, "How do I, you know, make the most of this?" So that kind of passion or drive, that really kind of...
Carol Pehotsky (11:06):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (11:06):
... you know, maybe you call it restlessness.
Carol Pehotsky (11:07):
(laughs)
Angie (11:09):
Is that, you know, there's a drive there. Like I-
Carol Pehotsky (11:09):
Yeah.
Angie (11:09):
... I want, there's something else that I want to do with this. And so you see kind of, like, a bigger picture. You know, what...
Carol Pehotsky (11:15):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (11:15):
... What's the next step? What, what can I do?
Carol Pehotsky (11:15):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (11:17):
How can I use these skills? How do I get to where I want to be?
Carol Pehotsky (11:21):
Yeah.
Angie (11:21):
So...
Carol Pehotsky (11:22):
I've got these tools in my toolbox now, I want to use it.
Angie (11:22):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (11:22):
Okay.
Angie (11:24):
So...
Carol Pehotsky (11:24):
Excellent. So, one of the things that you said that really struck me was, not letting the rejection define you.
Angie (11:31):
Correct.
Carol Pehotsky (11:31):
Let's talk a little bit more about that, because that's not something that just na- comes naturally to people. So, how do you work through that?
Angie (11:36):
You definitely feel that burn.
Carol Pehotsky (11:38):
Yeah.
Angie (11:38):
Um, it's just that, o- oftentimes too, and it, I take a step back...
Carol Pehotsky (11:44):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (11:44):
... and think about when I was in a different place and all the things that I have accomplished.
Carol Pehotsky (11:48):
Right.
Angie (11:48):
And you kind of think about, there was a time where I didn't think I could achieve this. Or, you know-
Carol Pehotsky (11:52):
Yeah.
Angie (11:52):
... there was certain obstacles.
Carol Pehotsky (11:52):
Reflecting back. Mm-hmm.
Angie (11:54):
... and kind of recognizing that, celebrating that I can do this and kind of learning maybe why did I get that rejection. Or there was a time too, that there was an opportunity we had assistant...
Carol Pehotsky (11:54):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (12:04):
... nurse managers, but they were called team leads and...
Carol Pehotsky (12:05):
Okay.
Angie (12:07):
... there was an opportunity for that opened up within the department. And there was a nurse who I was very good friends with. She had all the experience. And she had finished actually her graduate degree. And I was currently going into graduate degree. And she definitely, I knew she ha- was going to get the position.
Carol Pehotsky (12:07):
(laughs) Yeah.
Angie (12:24):
You know, I knew it.
Carol Pehotsky (12:25):
Still doesn't make it not sting.
Angie (12:26):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (12:26):
But yeah.
Angie (12:26):
You don't want to go up against her, but at the same time it was like, you know, putting yourself in that uncomfortable position.
Carol Pehotsky (12:32):
Right.
Angie (12:32):
I'm going to interview for this. I have the skills for it.
Carol Pehotsky (12:33):
Yeah.
Angie (12:35):
I did not get the position...
Carol Pehotsky (12:35):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (12:37):
... but it was just understanding, you know what, what did somebody else, a better candidate have or...
Carol Pehotsky (12:37):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (12:42):
... kind of knowing your weaknesses. You really kind of get to know...
Carol Pehotsky (12:42):
Sure.
Angie (12:45):
... "Yes, I have these strengths, but what can I work on in advance and keep going and try again?"
Carol Pehotsky (12:50):
Yeah.
Angie (12:50):
So it really kind of helps solidify that mentoring.
Carol Pehotsky (12:55):
Sure.
Angie (12:55):
I had kind of built a good relationship and a lot of s- great supportive people-
Carol Pehotsky (13:00):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (13:00):
... around me that helped encourage me, motivate me, inspire me. And not only that, but also kind of help, you know, guide me to...
Carol Pehotsky (13:08):
Sure.
Angie (13:09):
... to get...
Carol Pehotsky (13:09):
And sort of bounce that off.
Angie (13:10):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (13:10):
... of when you had the rejection.
Angie (13:10):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (13:10):
Somebody to sort of talk-
Angie (13:12):
Correct.
Carol Pehotsky (13:12):
... through with it. Okay.
Angie (13:13):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (13:13):
Yeah.
Angie (13:13):
So, you know, when they come and, "Hey, this is, I think you can do this."
Carol Pehotsky (13:14):
Yeah.
Angie (13:17):
And somebody else believes in you...
Carol Pehotsky (13:18):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (13:18):
... that really is very motivating...
Carol Pehotsky (13:20):
Yeah.
Angie (13:20):
... to, "You know what, I can. I, I got this. I did what I, I needed to do to get here." And it kind of helps.
Carol Pehotsky (13:27):
Absolutely. Well, and when I reflect on rejection in my professional career, it wa- it was always the, the right thing. (laughs) It was always the best-
Angie (13:35):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (13:35):
... thing. When you look back, it's like, "Oh, I'm glad that didn't happen. I'm glad I didn't get that role at that time because I wouldn't have been successful," or the situation maybe didn't lend itself to what I would've wanted it to be.
Angie (13:47):
Absolutely. There's so many ways to get to where you want to be.
Carol Pehotsky (13:47):
Yes, yep. (laughs)
Angie (13:51):
And so maybe that path didn't work out. And so it was, whether it was meant to be or there was a better opportunity that...
Carol Pehotsky (13:51):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (13:58):
And, you know, most cases, in my case, to speak for myself, it...
Carol Pehotsky (13:58):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (14:01):
... it really turned out...
Carol Pehotsky (14:03):
Yeah. So for our listeners then, (laughs) you know, this will be, this episode is airing in May. So we probably have some nurses who are graduating or maybe there are people who are out there thinking about something different. So, so hopefully you paid attention. If not, hit that rewind button a few times and think about it. That just because your first nursing position may not be what you thought it was going to be or may not work out, it doesn't mean you stop. It means you pivot.
Angie (14:27):
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Absolutely. I, you know, some I, sometimes you have, like I kind of shared, you have a perspective...
Carol Pehotsky (14:34):
Yeah.
Angie (14:34):
... of what you think some, a role will be.
Carol Pehotsky (14:34):
(laughs)
Angie (14:36):
I, during my master's program, I was able to do my capstone and you actually see the day to day of what that role-
Carol Pehotsky (14:44):
Right.
Angie (14:44):
... looks like.
Carol Pehotsky (14:44):
It's not as shiny as you thought. (laughs)
Angie (14:46):
Correct.
Carol Pehotsky (14:46):
Yep.
Angie (14:46):
And so it's very eyeopening to me.
Carol Pehotsky (14:46):
Yeah.
Angie (14:48):
You know, kind of solidified, "Yes, this is what I want to do."
Carol Pehotsky (14:48):
Yes.
Angie (14:51):
Versus it could be very, you know, maybe this is not, or maybe this is not the correct environment. Maybe it's the role, but in a different practice. So...
Carol Pehotsky (14:58):
Well, and I think your advice around taking a chance, even if you're almost guaranteed you're not going to get it, you know, there's, there's nothing that quite replaces actually interviewing for something. You can do all the mock interviews you want to, but when you're actually on the line, either virtually or in person sitting across from somebody, it's great experience. You just can't replicate as well, I think.
Angie (15:19):
You really learn a lot about yourself.
Carol Pehotsky (15:19):
Yes. (laughs) For sure.
Angie (15:21):
Really learn about, and then, again, kind of that what weaknesses can I come at or...
Carol Pehotsky (15:21):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (15:26):
... or learn better next time?
Carol Pehotsky (15:28):
Right.
Angie (15:29):
And that's kind of helped me-
Carol Pehotsky (15:31):
Yeah.
Angie (15:31):
... in the, the path where I am.
Carol Pehotsky (15:32):
And I think for me as a leader, it also has changed the way I conduct interviews too. You know, wanting to be gentle, but also being clear and direct and not necessarily (laughs) destroy somebody's hopes. But if they-
Angie (15:43):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (15:43):
... clearly aren't ready, you know, when is the right time to give somebody the feedback that says, "You know, if you're looking for this type of role, there's, there's something different that you need to do in your career to do so."
Angie (15:52):
Absolutely.
Carol Pehotsky (15:53):
So the other thing that really struck me was you talked about sharing your goal with your leader. As a Gen Xer, that's not necessarily something we do. (laughs)
Angie (16:02):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (16:02):
It's more of the, "Well, they should see that I really want it, and that I'm working really hard and they should know that I want it." Like, I don't know. Like, (laughs) somebody should-
Angie (16:10):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (16:10):
... be able to read the thought cloud over your head. So, was that hard for you to share that goal, or what advice would you give to somebody who is sort of feeling awkward about that?
Angie (16:18):
At that time, even a lot of my managers really kind of solidified that and, and opened that door and build that relationship.
Carol Pehotsky (16:18):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (16:25):
And so that comfort level, I think, was there. And so, now I kind of take that into...
Carol Pehotsky (16:31):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (16:31):
... you know, as who I am as a nurse manager, again, for my caregivers.
Carol Pehotsky (16:32):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (16:35):
As far as just being open, having those discussions. One of the greatest opportunities I had when Mentor was opening is this...
Carol Pehotsky (16:35):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (16:42):
... opportunity to take the time to get to know caregivers...
Carol Pehotsky (16:43):
Yeah.
Angie (16:47):
... and, and build the team...
Carol Pehotsky (16:47):
Right. Because you were bringing caregivers...
Angie (16:48):
... and have this discussion.
Carol Pehotsky (16:49):
... before the hospitals open.
Angie (16:50):
Yes.
Carol Pehotsky (16:50):
Yeah.
Angie (16:51):
So it was really not even in the interview process, but then just-
Carol Pehotsky (16:51):
Right. (laughs)
Angie (16:54):
... you know, small kind of-
Carol Pehotsky (16:55):
Yeah.
Angie (16:55):
... conversations of-
Carol Pehotsky (16:56):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (16:56):
... really get to, to know someone. What are their goals? What are their interests? What are their strengths? And so, now it's kind of presenting again...
Carol Pehotsky (17:05):
Yeah.
Angie (17:05):
... just trying to, you know, if an opportunity comes...
Carol Pehotsky (17:07):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (17:07):
... presenting it to them.
Carol Pehotsky (17:08):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (17:09):
Having that awareness and, and believing in someone and hopefully being able to share that goal with me and...
Carol Pehotsky (17:14):
Right.
Angie (17:14):
... work on towards it.
Carol Pehotsky (17:15):
What a gift to have that time. That's fantastic.
Angie (17:17):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (17:18):
Yeah. So, you've mentioned a lot about mentorship and sort of the, the really important role that your leaders played. So, talk to us about, now you are the leader of others. And so, how do you encourage, or how would you... Somebody's listening right now and thinking, "Ah, I'm not sure I can." Or, "I don't know that I'm ready." So, what encouragement do you give your caregivers or you give to somebody listening right now in that situation?
Angie (17:40):
Being in the current position, I think...
Carol Pehotsky (17:40):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (17:41):
... I knew some of the skills or as far as certifications...
Carol Pehotsky (17:45):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (17:45):
... or next steps. And so, sharing that opportunity, sometimes that's the...
Carol Pehotsky (17:48):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (17:48):
... intimidating part. I don't even know where to begin or...
Carol Pehotsky (17:51):
Well, sure. Yeah.
Angie (17:52):
And so sharing that or kind of the, I know within Cleveland Clinic too, there's a lot of opportunities as far as career path growth.
Carol Pehotsky (17:59):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (17:59):
And so sharing those opportunities that are available.
Carol Pehotsky (18:02):
Right.
Angie (18:03):
Being self-directed, you know?
Carol Pehotsky (18:05):
Yeah.
Angie (18:05):
Finding what, what interests do you bring it to me. How can I kind of help support you kind of on that path? And I think it's really great too, as far as once you've established that, what do I need to do in that position, that check marking.
Carol Pehotsky (18:17):
Right. Yes.
Angie (18:17):
I've accomplished this.
Carol Pehotsky (18:17):
Right. (laughs)
Angie (18:18):
I've done it, you know?
Carol Pehotsky (18:18):
Yep.
Angie (18:19):
You stay focused and then you, you see your accomplishments and then...
Carol Pehotsky (18:23):
Yeah.
Angie (18:24):
... it, it goes by so quick and next thing you know, you're, you've accomplished it and you're there.
Carol Pehotsky (18:28):
Yeah, and you're absolutely right. You know, we are very fortunate at Cleveland Clinic to have a lot of resources. And if you're listening and you're not from our organization, one could argue that there probably are really great things in your setting as well. You just have to sometimes go looking for it or be brave enough to ask your leader. It shouldn't be brave, right? Asking your leader what... "I'm feeling restless," or, "I don't know how to develop." And you being able to say that bravely to your nurse leader, they should be able to point you in the right direction of what those resources are if you're from a different organization.
Angie (18:57):
Absolutely. I think u- ultimately most ma- nurse managers want you to be happy.
Carol Pehotsky (19:01):
Absolutely, yes.
Angie (19:02):
It definitely translates...
Carol Pehotsky (19:03):
Right.
Angie (19:03):
... to your performance, to the environment, to your patient care. And so if you, you know, being able to do that, nobody wants to lose a, a caregiver.
Carol Pehotsky (19:11):
Right. (laughs)
Angie (19:12):
Nobody wants to lose an emplo- employee, but there's definitely a lot of growth in helping someone to get to where they want to be.
Carol Pehotsky (19:19):
Yeah. I mean, that's the double- edged sword, right? We, we love, hopefully we all love developing people, but it often means that they're going to go somewhere else.
Angie (19:26):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (19:27):
Yeah. And so, it, it does. I think it... You, you've highlighted well that there's a, there's a, I guess maturity, that you have to have as leader to really take that deep breath and say, "I'm going to miss you as another human being and a caregiver but I'm happy for you." There, it's bittersweet.
Angie (19:41):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (19:42):
Yeah. Okay. How do you, how do you get through that? Any recommendations for leaders that are like, "Yeah, man, people keep leaving."
Angie (19:47):
(laughs)
Carol Pehotsky (19:47):
"And they're doing good things, but I'm mad." (laughs)
Angie (19:49):
Proactively prepare. (laughs)
Carol Pehotsky (19:50):
Yeah. Well, yeah.
Angie (19:50):
No, you know, even-
Carol Pehotsky (19:50):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (19:53):
... looking, you know, who's, who's currently back in school.
Carol Pehotsky (19:53):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (19:56):
What are their goals, knowing... And so you're already kind of trying to plan.
Carol Pehotsky (20:00):
Right.
Angie (20:00):
You know, how do you help them, support them.
Carol Pehotsky (20:04):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (20:04):
How do we actually continue to operate?
Carol Pehotsky (20:06):
Well, yeah.
Angie (20:06):
A- and so-
Carol Pehotsky (20:06):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (20:07):
... that aspect and, and seeing it and hopefully it prevents that, you know, shock of...
Carol Pehotsky (20:13):
Right.
Angie (20:13):
... someone is, is leaving.
Carol Pehotsky (20:15):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (20:15):
So...
Carol Pehotsky (20:16):
I, I think that's the other thing that, as a leader, you have to, have to lean into. Is people are always going to leave, right?
Angie (20:16):
Yeah.
Carol Pehotsky (20:21):
Somebody is going to move or not come back to work after a medical leave or any number of things. And to put your head in the sand and it's not going to happen to me or to take it personally...
Angie (20:31):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (20:32):
You know, you're denying yourself the joy of being able to... You know, there are several people in this organization and even in other organizations where it's pretty fun to be able to say, "I might have one or two fingerprints on that person's development. Look at them now."
Angie (20:44):
Absolutely. Even currently as my assistant nurse manager, she was very new to the-
Carol Pehotsky (20:45):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (20:49):
... role as well. And it was just now kind of that opportunity-
Carol Pehotsky (20:49):
Yeah.
Angie (20:52):
... to see that development. And I've learned a lot from her as well and vice versa. And so, hopefully just watching that impact, I don't want to lose her.
Carol Pehotsky (21:00):
Right.
Angie (21:00):
I want to (laughs) hold on to her forever.
Carol Pehotsky (21:02):
Right.
Angie (21:02):
But again, I, I definitely think she's an asset to the organization and if it happens...
Carol Pehotsky (21:08):
That's right.
Angie (21:08):
... I'm, I'm there to support it.
Carol Pehotsky (21:09):
That's right. So, and the last question to wrap this all up. So, you know, sometimes I think nurses think, "Well, I'll just go back to school, and then the opportunities will present themselves." So, what advice would you give to a nurse in terms of reflecting on, you know, you've mentioned several times about how you knew yourself, you knew the strengths you had and s- and the skills you didn't have yet. So what advice would you give for somebody to do some self reflection to know the next course to take?
Angie (21:35):
Definitely do some research.
Carol Pehotsky (21:35):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (21:36):
It's, there's such a pool of opportunity to see what skills and, and what opportunities, classes, courses are available, what benefits are available...
Carol Pehotsky (21:37):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (21:47):
... to help support that or kind of break down the barriers to getting there. It looks like a very long journey...
Carol Pehotsky (21:47):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (21:53):
... but looking at things just a little bit of it at a time. You don't have to see, you know, the one year, two year program.
Carol Pehotsky (21:58):
Right.
Angie (21:58):
You look at this week, "What do I need to accomplish this week?" And you will get to that end goal. Kind of putting yourself within mentors.
Carol Pehotsky (22:07):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (22:07):
Um, finding a mentorship or even people kind of within that role that you're actually aspiring to be.
Carol Pehotsky (22:07):
Yeah.
Angie (22:12):
And kind of getting guidance...
Carol Pehotsky (22:14):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (22:14):
... I think is really supportive, keeping focused...
Carol Pehotsky (22:15):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (22:16):
... and keeping you on track to get to where you want to be.
Carol Pehotsky (22:19):
And mentors love working with people who are eager and interested and, yeah.
Angie (22:24):
Absolutely that even, you know, anytime there's a student or anything or...
Carol Pehotsky (22:28):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (22:28):
... shadowing experience, that passion, you can sense it, you feel it. And experienced caregivers, I should say, you know, with myself-
Carol Pehotsky (22:36):
Yeah.
Angie (22:36):
... nurses. You see it, you want to be a part of it.
Carol Pehotsky (22:39):
Yes.
Angie (22:39):
You kind of help that development, so...
Carol Pehotsky (22:41):
And it charges your own batteries, too.
Angie (22:42):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (22:43):
All right. Well, you've given our audience lots to think about, and hopefully people right now are taking some notes about where they're going to take their journey. But to wrap up, we're going to flip over to the speed round, which is where our audience gets to learn a little bit more about you as a well-rounded human being, in addition to being an amazing nurse leader. So my first question for you is, what's something you wish you knew as a brand new nurse?
Angie (23:02):
That you don't know everything and to kind of put your guard down...
Carol Pehotsky (23:07):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (23:08):
... and receive feedback.
Carol Pehotsky (23:09):
Yeah.
Angie (23:10):
It is very, very positive. It is, sometimes it's just a natural human response to put-
Carol Pehotsky (23:10):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (23:15):
... that defense up...
Carol Pehotsky (23:16):
Yeah.
Angie (23:16):
... to put that wall up. You know, how far you've-
Carol Pehotsky (23:19):
Sure.
Angie (23:19):
... come.
Carol Pehotsky (23:19):
It's [inaudible 00:23:20] mechanism, yeah.
Angie (23:20):
Yes. And so it has helped me, it has built me so much into who I am. And it really strengthens, it really turns those weaknesses into strength.
Carol Pehotsky (23:29):
Yeah.
Angie (23:30):
And so being open to that.
Carol Pehotsky (23:31):
Wonderful. And any hidden talents you'd like to brag on?
Angie (23:35):
I'm a really great skier.
Carol Pehotsky (23:36):
Really?
Angie (23:37):
It's definitely, unfortunately, living in the Midwest-
Carol Pehotsky (23:40):
Yes. (laughs) It doesn't even lend itself to much...
Angie (23:42):
Um, but, but it's something that I do enjoy going, kind of, on ski trips out West...
Carol Pehotsky (23:46):
Cool.
Angie (23:46):
... more so.
Carol Pehotsky (23:46):
Mm-hmm.
Angie (23:47):
And I've learned, I, my dad taught me since I was three years old, so...
Carol Pehotsky (23:51):
Really? Well, be careful. No, no broken bones, please.
Angie (23:54):
Right.
Carol Pehotsky (23:54):
(laughs)
Angie (23:54):
I am a little bit more mindful now, you know?
Carol Pehotsky (23:54):
Okay.
Angie (23:56):
I don't have this kind of downtime, so...
Carol Pehotsky (23:58):
That's right.
Angie (23:58):
... I have noticed that.
Carol Pehotsky (24:00):
Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Angie.
Angie (24:02):
Awesome, thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
Carol Pehotsky (24:08):
As always, thanks so much for joining us for today's discussion. Don't miss out. Subscribe to hear new episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And remember, we want to hear from you. Do you have ideas for future podcasts or want to share your stories? Email us at nurseessentials@ccf.org. To learn more about nursing at Cleveland Clinic, please check us out at clevelandclinic.org/nursing. Until next time, take care of yourselves and take care of each other. The information in this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only, and does not constitute medical or legal advice. Consult your local state boards of nursing for any specific practice questions.