Marketing & Mayhem
Relationship Advice, Divorce & Emotional Connection
Kirsten uses the Gottman method - which “aims "to disarm conflicting verbal communication; increase intimacy, respect, and affection; remove barriers that create a feeling of stagnancy, and create a heightened sense of empathy and understanding within the context of the relationship."”. Per her “a common sense method” … and you know how we love that! And how funny is it - that the two Northern girls on today’s podcast - are the ones who got married young?
We jump straight into parenting and marriage - by ripping the “stay together for the kids” door right off its hinges. And the commonalities in marriage conflict and divorce - the common female driven complaints and conversations about the hard stuff. What REALLY are your needs in a relationship (“outside of sex for men and dishes for women” - yea we said it)? And what does it mean, if you can’t articulate your needs (hint: it’s good news).
We tackle the emotional connection we have with our girlfriends. From 30 bridesmaids dresses, to the freedom of picking your own wallpaper - to going to bed solo for the first time in 18 years. What does it look like to be in a safe and respective partnership? The big topics - including conflict resolution, emotional depth and true connectivity … and why our circle means so much to us in this journey of life!
Guess what? You CAN get divorced without being down on men - what happens when you change the mindset from saving your marriage to solely focusing on enjoying your children, and raising them as co parents?
We get emotional - we get deep - and we are sure this isn’t going to be her first time on our podcast! Find her on Spotify and Apple and anywhere you listen to podcasts. The Raising Marriage podcast with Kirsten Hatcher!
More on the Gottman Method - https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-gottman-method-5191408
For more mayhem, be sure to follow us:
Insta @marketingandmayhem
YouTube @MarketingMayhemPod
And don't forget to leave us a 5 star review! Or message us to deep dive into your topic or just give us feedback!
Hosted by @raebecca.miller and @jennyfromthe843
Kirsten uses the Gottman method - which “aims "to disarm conflicting verbal communication; increase intimacy, respect, and affection; remove barriers that create a feeling of stagnancy, and create a heightened sense of empathy and understanding within the context of the relationship."”. Per her “a common sense method” … and you know how we love that! And how funny is it - that the two Northern girls on today’s podcast - are the ones who got married young?
We jump straight into parenting and marriage - by ripping the “stay together for the kids” door right off its hinges. And the commonalities in marriage conflict and divorce - the common female driven complaints and conversations about the hard stuff. What REALLY are your needs in a relationship (“outside of sex for men and dishes for women” - yea we said it)? And what does it mean, if you can’t articulate your needs (hint: it’s good news).
We tackle the emotional connection we have with our girlfriends. From 30 bridesmaids dresses, to the freedom of picking your own wallpaper - to going to bed solo for the first time in 18 years. What does it look like to be in a safe and respective partnership? The big topics - including conflict resolution, emotional depth and true connectivity … and why our circle means so much to us in this journey of life!
Guess what? You CAN get divorced without being down on men - what happens when you change the mindset from saving your marriage to solely focusing on enjoying your children, and raising them as co parents?
We get emotional - we get deep - and we are sure this isn’t going to be her first time on our podcast! Find her on Spotify and Apple and anywhere you listen to podcasts. The Raising Marriage podcast with Kirsten Hatcher!
More on the Gottman Method - https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-gottman-method-5191408
For more mayhem, be sure to follow us:
Insta @marketingandmayhem
YouTube @MarketingMayhemPod
And don't forget to leave us a 5 star review! Or message us to deep dive into your topic or just give us feedback!
Hosted by @raebecca.miller and @jennyfromthe843
we have a guest today, we have kirsten hatcher and we have actually you are a listener to our podcast. Yes, so you and I have gone back and forth. We don't know each other very well, which is amazing, um, because that just tends to be how we do things around here. But our kids are in the same class. This year I are.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 3:I didn't even know that. Yes, so our paths crossed this January.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. Well, really, do you know? The first time our paths crossed they were like two, oh yes, at a party. I've been trying to recreate your hairstyle that you had that day. I feel like I've said this to you. I feel obsessive. I'm like, oh my God, I've been trying to recreate this hairstyle.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I do this braid that I poof up across the top that looks like a mohawk.
Speaker 2:I can't do it I love it.
Speaker 3:So yes, we do actually, and I haven't seen or heard from that person in a long time. But yes, our paths did cross, like back in the day. And then they recrossed. In January. You have a podcast. Yes, it's called Raising Marriage.
Speaker 2:Yes, and it's so much fun and we kind of have the same format that you guys have, where it's more trying to have just chit chat conversation, and just see, I'm a little bit more directed just from getting the sense of listening to you guys and you're like look, we're not scripting anything, show up and let's chat. I have to put a little bit of guidance because I'm trying to give marriage tips but sometimes there's like rogue stuff that happens because it's my husband.
Speaker 3:We, but sometimes there's like rogue stuff that happens because it's my husband. I love rogue. Well, that's what I was going to say. So it's about marriage and like couples and healthy relationships, but then also it's raising marriage, because it's the ability to like raise your kids while protecting that other piece also, which I think is amazing.
Speaker 2:Yes, I realized that the conversations I was having with my husband on the couch crying with young kids was no different than the conversations I was having in the counseling room with couples I was working with and I'm like, oh, we need help with this. People give us very basic marriage advice, they give us very basic parenting advice, but nobody ever tells us how to let those two worlds live together. So I was like we're just going to come in and we're going to share some of the nitty gritty and where we feel like we failed and we're disconnected, and how we get back on path, because I'm not always good at doing what I tell people to do.
Speaker 1:But you don't give marriage advice Like I have a strict no marriage advice policy.
Speaker 2:So when I say bad marriage advice, I mean don't go to bed. Angry is the only one you get.
Speaker 1:I don't ask for marriage advice, I don't like no, just don't give it to me.
Speaker 2:Well, people ask me, though, but I am a marriage counselor, so I think that that just kind of comes with the territory. Do you hate?
Speaker 3:that, though, because I feel like if I ran into you and you were like, oh, I'm a marriage counselor, and they were like, oh, I have this very specific situation and I want you to side with me, because that's a lot of times what people are really saying, it's like going out to lunch with a dietician and you're like I should really get the salad, because this girl is here.
Speaker 2:I think what happens is people won't randomly ask me very direct questions. I usually get the one off oh I could use you and I'm like well, that just sounds snarky to your partner in some way right.
Speaker 2:It's usually like friends will get you know, usually over a glass of wine or a cup of coffee, and they'll ask but what I tend to do is I'm the other perspective giver, so I'm like I can side with you all that you want, but that's not going to help you and I a lot of my friends, I think know that, or people that talk to me about it, so it doesn't happen as much. But um, not just tell them to go listen to the podcast.
Speaker 3:But when you're in those conversations, is it really hard for you not to like okay, is it hard for you not to give a little bit of like direction? Or is it just almost like research? Because we're like people people and I love human behavior and I do believe this idea that and we shared it in the last episode but this idea that 10 people can have the exact same experience you can put them in a room, give them the exact same experience and I believe in my heart that they will have an actual 10 different experiences.
Speaker 3:I just don't think it's fair to be so general Yep.
Speaker 2:I agree it depends how close I am with somebody. So, like a college girlfriend years ago was really going through a lot with her husband and I kind of said like this is who he's been forever and always and yes, he should grow and evolve, but is he and you're just missing it. And then I got very direct with her. You either go to counseling and make this work or your kids are still young and maybe if you just don't ever see a future, you have to get that ball rolling now. That was like the most direct I ever went. I love that, though.
Speaker 1:Because I feel like it's so, like the. I was born and raised in South Carolina and Becca and I have talked about this on some previous episodes but you know that's definitely not the mentality. It's more like oh you know, stay together for the kids. Kids need to be together. And I don't feel that way. I come from parents who are have been married multiple times but are currently extremely happy. But yeah, like I don't understand that piece of advice, Stay together for the kids, I'm like. I'd rather see you happy than miserable.
Speaker 2:Try for the kids and then, if you keep hitting the same roadblock over and over, maybe you try another counselor, you try other avenues. But if it, I was listening to something popped up in my feed and it was like, yes, ideally, kids in a home with both parents intact is the prime thing that we all want. But if that can't happen and you are just miserably unhappy, studies show that that is not beneficial, that that can cause more harm, and so then it's how do you manage that co-parenting role? And I, as a marriage counselor, I can't think of a time that I've ever told a couple that they should get divorced because of what you just said, rebecca.
Speaker 2:10 people could be living one thing, or you could see 10 different therapists and one therapist might be able to get you through whatever. I can't get you through in that moment, and who am I? Just this therapist in my office to tell you yeah, I think you should get divorced. So that's not ever anything that I will say to clients. I will ask why are you still married? Why are you still coming here? Why are you doing this? Because then that still coming here. Why are you doing this? Because then that you hopefully find the investment that you can build from. But it is very rare that I scream divorce to people because it's such a personal, life impacting decision.
Speaker 3:So I feel like that's not even really the point of therapy. I went so last year and this is more January to June I had a therapist that I saw every week for like you said she moved.
Speaker 2:I almost messaged you and said who is she? I want to go see her because she sounds amazing.
Speaker 3:She was young, she moved to Chicago and so she's not licensed in the state so obviously. But eventually I think she will be back. Just she was young, so it was like a relocation for a role and whatever, but we spent so much time really focusing on values and beliefs. She helped me kind of recenter myself and that's how I got full circle, zoomed out, then zoomed back into the decision that I needed to make, but it was very much it's not a light decision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not a light decision make, but it was very much not a light decision. Yeah, it's not a light decision. You can't.
Speaker 3:It's not like I'm just going to do this willy nilly Right, yeah, I know that support with her is amazing. Well, and, like you, when you were talking about your friend, I had like a moment too where I was like my guess is and I don't know, but in that situation there was probably things that she couldn't see that were harming her, whether it's like mentally or whatever. And so there were moments, for sure, where people opened my eyes to different things that I just really couldn't like zoom out and see.
Speaker 3:But I never had anyone in my circle ever being. Everyone actually was shook when I got divorced was shook when I got divorced, I mean, and I, the more I thought about it, the more closed off I became, to like even sharing it with anybody, which I don't know if that's normal or if that's just.
Speaker 2:I think. I think it can be right. You kind of have your I joke, like you know, we've gone through some things in our family, and you have your kind of elevator pitch that you give to people like hey, we're going through some stuff, and like we know, we're going through some stuff and we're working on that stuff. So I'm just I always say like, call, call a spade a spade, cause if, if people are probably not thinking about it, but if I'm worried that you're thinking about it, I'm just going to put it out there. We're all aware this is happening. Here's my elevator pitch. But you don't get anything else unless if we're close friends.
Speaker 3:Well, and it was like I would whisper it a little bit here and there, but like I mean to my sister-in-law that was the therapist.
Speaker 1:Is that one of the people I know and I wasn't asking her for advice.
Speaker 3:I was just. I knew she was a really good secret keeper so I could tell her something that was on my mind and she wouldn't even tell my brother. It would just go into the boat where all the other things that happen in her therapy room go. But because I have this other very social life on social media, I don't know what happened, but everyone was like wait what?
Speaker 1:What do?
Speaker 2:you do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did Just for watching social media yes, that's expected. We actually talked about that on a previous episode, but yeah, in the last one yeah, yeah, so I I'm the same.
Speaker 2:I could be perspective on so and I don't know like is that just a skill we have, or is that just what we all do on social media?
Speaker 1:I'm super sleuth.
Speaker 3:But I didn't share him much on social media before and I can promise you. Well, I guess I shouldn't promise, but it's very unlikely that whatever happens next, you will see on social. You might see I might allude to it like you might see two drinks and then might not have the person tagged which I would if I was with you guys, and then we're all going to be like, oh my God we're so excited for you. Jen's going to be like where are you and I'll share my location. Yeah, True story.
Speaker 2:That's probably smart.
Speaker 3:But it's very unlikely that I will let them into essentially my personal brand, because now I'm really really funny about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes I message you and I'm like, okay, back off, you're coming on a little too strong, you don't have to message her every time you laugh.
Speaker 3:No, I love that you do that. Wait, never do that, never back off.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we all can just keep messaging you. You hear that listeners.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love it. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean you give me a lot of insight and you build me up.
Speaker 3:when I hear from you, I'm like okay, I get this validation that I mean I'm by myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you're doing that to a lot of us Like you, causing me to chuckle most days, and I love your, I think. Can I say one thing that I think is a positive that comes with a divorce? Yeah, that you can pick whatever damn wallpaper you want.
Speaker 3:That's like the best thing. I'm like so happy right now because you know I bought more, I did, I did, I saw that it's so cute, I had to pick a.
Speaker 2:I finally talked John into wallpaper and I wanted like the fun loud, but it was for a small bathroom that he said it was okay to not Okay, I don't need his permission, but he's my partner. We have to like come together with things. So I had to find something that was like fun but symmetrical on the eye and like a nice even pattern, which is still fun. I love it. It's like all these dogs with sunglasses on and they're adorable yeah. Do you say Jenny, you're the same?
Speaker 1:You see her wallpaper and it's like, oh man, that's so much fun. No, but I do love having her, so I feel like I lived alone. I got married later in life.
Speaker 3:I was 30., 32.
Speaker 1:So I lived alone for a really long time and, you know, sowed my wild oats and did all that. But so I had that time to kind of be, alone and have my own space. So when I got married, my husband was is four and a half years older than me, so he kind of had that too. So that was probably like the most difficult for us was like getting used to living with somebody. But now that Rebecca has her place, like I can go hide there, so that's really cool.
Speaker 2:It's like a girl's zone for everybody. It really is it's like the clubhouse there's always champagne in the fridge.
Speaker 3:And, like yesterday, Jenny randomly pulled up. She gave me like five minutes notice. She was like dude, I'm coming over. I'm like come over, I should probably give you a key.
Speaker 2:Wait, you went into town. You're going to go into town two days in a row.
Speaker 1:I go in town multiple times a day, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, all right, that's impressive. Oh, for school. Yes, okay, that's, that'll get you.
Speaker 3:And then I'm like, like if she can't make it home for something we're doing, I'm closer. So she's like let's just clubhouse.
Speaker 2:I can't make it home for something we're doing.
Speaker 1:I'm closer, so she's like let's just clubhouse. Yeah, I love it. I love that you call it the clubhouse. That's so much references. Yeah, I love that for her, that she is finally able because, becca, you got married like how old were you?
Speaker 3:I was. I've been married for 14 years, so I would have been 27 so we got married.
Speaker 2:Did you get married in 2010?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah same, yeah, same with me and John. So we're going to be 14 years. Isn't that funny? Cause I'm a Northerner too. I'm from Connecticut, new Hampshire, moved to South Georgia, so I, like, grew up my adult life in the South. But is it that funny, like I joked, that when I moved to the South in 2006, so I was probably 24, I went up north to a friend's wedding and it was like so weird that she was getting married. And then down south, it was so weird that I was single. So how funny that the two Northern girls got married Young.
Speaker 1:The young life. I was a leper, like I don't think you understand Like I was no, and I'm not exaggerating Y'all. I have been at 30 something weddings. I truly was the girl from 27 dresses. I was no, and I'm not exaggerating Y'all.
Speaker 2:I have been at 30 something weddings, oh gosh I truly was the girl from 27 dresses. I was the last one to marry. You are like a true Southern girl.
Speaker 1:Like I think everybody had written it off Like it's not happening, just it's not for her. I had come to terms with it Like I was good and then, yeah, I met Nate, so funny you found, and then yeah, I'm at night, so many pound eight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is too funny yeah.
Speaker 3:I have a question for you. Yes, obviously I'm divorced and I've been reading some statistics lately, but I'm curious about this because I don't know. I mean, obviously you're not a divorce counselor, you're a marriage counselor, but what are some of the things that you're seeing as common themes right now?
Speaker 2:Like with conflicts or just themes in general.
Speaker 3:Well, like so for me, one of the validating things that I read was that a lot of divorce right now is actually driven by the wife.
Speaker 2:Yes, I saw you're the one that shared that. Yes, that was very, yes, that was very validating for me to see, because, I will say, there is a common thing in the room where, both complaints or grievances, where, like I'm exhausted, we are still this 1950s housewife. Let's do Pinterest, let's do what's all these other trends? Now, like these farmsteading families, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is wild.
Speaker 3:What the hell is that? I don't even know. Making sourdough and like getting chickens and growing your own plants yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2:The idea of chickens is great to me, but that's as far as it's going.
Speaker 2:As a concept, yeah, actually owning them, yes, and so I do find that it is more common for the women to come in with the complaints. I think there is a level, though one of the bigger things that I find working with couples in rooms is helping both parties figure out what the heck their needs are. Outside of sex for men and someone to help with the dishes for women, right, like what else is it outside of that? And so that is a really big trend is like what do you need?
Speaker 2:In a relationship, specifically women, we're taught figure out what your neighbor needs, figure out what your friends need, figure out what your family needs and like, do for them, but don't maybe put your own personal needs out there, because then you just seem too needy. So then how are we supposed to say because then you just seem too needy. So then how are we supposed to say, hey, I need some alone time, or I want to just, you know, cuddle and watch a movie with you and then go to sleep, or you know what are our needs in a relationship, and it's. The patterns are usually similar to what they are, right, like friendship, loyalty, trust, all these things, but what that means to each person can look so different, and so that is a little bit more of what I find with people is like what the heck do you even need? Because you're coming in frustrated and you don't even know.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting to me because I don't even know if I could articulate what mine are Same.
Speaker 2:And I help people do it all the time, just like you said.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm so concerned about just the day to day and all of the things that we just have to do, and we talked about this a few previous episodes ago about being I think it was with Christina, about being in your feelings, and I don't do that ever. I don't think I have a clue, but I will say I do know that one of mine is alone time, yeah.
Speaker 2:We used to not be that way.
Speaker 1:My husband and my husband's family and my daughter 24 hours a day. I loved every minute of it. But when I got home I was like I need to be alone, like I just need to be alone. I don't want to talk, I don't want to cook, I don't want to cook.
Speaker 3:I don't want to do anything.
Speaker 1:And we were texting the same thing Like I was like let's go out. I said let's get together, let's do something. You want to cook? She was like no, I do not want to cook.
Speaker 2:That's a trend change from COVID. Is that what you just said? That it used to not be that we needed so much alone time? Because no, I was saying pre-kids I used to think I needed people around me all the time. And now I get the house to myself and I'm like, oh, this is amazing.
Speaker 1:I've always been like that. I love going to lunch by myself, even pre-marriage, pre-kid. I love going to the movies by myself. Friday nights I used to stay home. All my girlfriends would go out. I'm like y'all, I just need a minute. It's too much, it's just too much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. It's just figuring out what we need. I think a lot of stuff has changed. Pre-covid I was going to say I couldn't easily articulate my needs at this point.
Speaker 3:I couldn't articulate my type but because of the work that I did with Izzy I can easily tell you very clearly and I don't want to go down the divorce rabbit hole too far but I was very clear in my marriage also. I'm self-aware enough to say I was very clear and not assertive about what my needs were.
Speaker 3:I just it was very simple for me to say I need you to take five minutes this week to have a conversation with me. That's just one-on-one, that's important. Or I would like you to show me in a small way that you're thinking of me, like in this, and I would put a timeframe around it in this week and I would say exactly what the need was. And I can still do that really well.
Speaker 2:That's all Well, and the thing I was actually going to say to Jenny so this goes with what you're saying right now is that just because you can't label your needs doesn't mean they're unmet. Sometimes I see that as a very healthy sign for a relationship Like oh well, what are my needs? Oh, my needs are this I need a friendship and a partner. Oh, we could be in a cardboard box and be happy, so that could just mean that they're there and they're apparent and thriving, which is why you're maybe not as aware of it. But when needs are missing and we feel, maybe, resentment building up and this can happen with men as well, but it's all women talking right now and we feel resentment building up or frustration with our partner, that typically will signal some kind of need not being met, whether it's alone time, appreciation, the love languages. Really, I get frustrated that those are such a social media thing because they're so valid and they're so true.
Speaker 3:You know, we actually tossed around the idea of talking to you about, so one of the things we wanted to talk to you about was, okay, relationships and preserving them, because we don't know each other that well and it's really important to us we have a business, we have a podcast to be really careful and thoughtful about one another, and we do a pretty good job, even understanding when maybe we've even crossed like a boundary, and we talk about a lot of things and we we do a really good job. We try actively and we do a neogram with one another and we're really careful about thinking about how the other person perceives life in situations, because we know that we're different in this way. But we were talking about love languages. I would like love you to go into this, because I'm curious.
Speaker 2:I couldn't tell you what mine is. I think there you couldn't. I bet if I just went down the list you could, and I will give the disclaimer I've never read the book. It's pretty. It's pretty straightforward and self-explanatory. So there's quality time, acts of service, gifts, words of appreciation and physical touch.
Speaker 3:Can I be five? Yeah, I'm two. No, I mean like all five.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, you could be, you could be all five. Well, and I always say I think the gifts get a really bad rap because, oh, my wife, she's gifts. I'm like I'm happy if my husband brought me home my favorite coffee, like that is a gift.
Speaker 1:I'd love a gift. Bring me a Diet Coke. The bigger message is consideration. Like I thought, enough of you to pick this up.
Speaker 2:I'm like oh, I think that Becca would like this I thought of you and to go along all five really does show like I've thought of you. Right, I know we're having I'll never forget one night this was years ago and John's like mopping the floors because we were having a dinner party. I'm like, oh, that is actually really sexy right now Because at the end of the day I would love to mop those floors. But if I don't get to it, whatever, because everyone's just going to make the floors dirty anyway, so that those do come up a lot when we discuss the needs like, what do you need from me? But a lot of what I talk about with couples is exactly what might happen with the two of you in your business is, when there is conflict, how are we addressing that? Because we can't assume that any relationship, specifically a marriage, is going to be conflict free, and the way we're taught to engage in conflict is really not helpful or successful in any relationship. We're kind of taught just to go in, make our point so that we can win, and so the whole time you're arguing your point, the other person's just figuring out how they're going to argue their point, and I can imagine with you guys you're making some pretty big decisions and you feel pretty passionate about the decisions you're making, and so what you really have to do is you pause and you talk about why is this important to you. I think we should do this because I think it helps this messaging with our branding. I think that it will help our business grow in this way.
Speaker 2:What is it? What is the meaning for it? Behind you, versus just it's because I know it's right and we have to do it. So, yeah, that's a big part of it. Yeah, and then what happens is that's when.
Speaker 2:And then what I have couples do is you do that? So let's say, jenny, you're going first and sharing. This is why this is important to you. Rebecca's taking notes. She's saying back to you okay, this is what I hear you saying, am I hearing you right? And you say yes or no, and then, if it's no, you share some more, and if it's yes, then you flop, and then Rebecca shares why it's important to her. You take notes, you're reflecting back to her and then you come together After her. You take notes, you're reflecting back to her and then you come together.
Speaker 2:After that conversation, you may say well, really, we have the same goal, we have the same reason we want to do this. So let's figure out if we can blend our both worlds. Or it might be like Jenny this seems way more important to you. Let's just take your lead on it. And so it doesn't feel like you're always giving in to one another which can happen a lot in relationships and marriages, where you feel like you're always giving in and then resentment builds. But if it's a decision you're making together because you understand each other better, that's the whole. Goal is how let me understand you and why this is important to you, or why that hurt your feelings or why that made you sad, versus trying to prove that you're not right or wrong.
Speaker 3:I was going to say, I think, one of the things that we do well, and I don't know if this is healthy or unhealthy, who knows Time will tell We'll see yeah.
Speaker 3:Here we go. Yay, I learned this probably in my marriage. Whether it's positive or negative, but I'm an eight. I can be pretty forward, positive or negative, but like I am an eight right, I can be pretty forward. I can be pretty protective, I can be pretty loud if I need to, you know, basically like support somebody or protect them from whatever. But I don't use my voice as much as I used to in my thirties and definitely not as much as I used to in my twenties. I just don't care about things I don't care about. So I don't talk about things that don't matter to me, where I used to always feel like everyone had to have an opinion and I no longer feel that way at all, like if it doesn't really matter to me, it could be something as simple. As us out to dinner, she's like which app do you want to get? I'm like I I could eat any of these and be really happy. If there's something that really matters to you on this menu, please get it.
Speaker 3:And it just doesn't feel we do a lot better job respecting those things and if it actually matters, then one of us speaks up. The other one's a little bit quicker to be like wait a minute. So right now we're building our website. I don't know that much about our website, it's not my thing and I love art and pretty things and I love our branding, but it's looking good so far and I just don't feel compelled to be like Jenny. Please send me a link. I would like to send you my detailed notes back with all of my opinions, when I fully trust her to nail the shit out of it.
Speaker 2:That's exactly it. It's like you trust your business partner. You're like, look, this is your wheelhouse, this is where you're going to shine, this is where our business is going to shine through you. And that's cute. It's like okay, if picking a school that the kids go to is more important to one person and they're doing the research and they're doing the things. It's like okay, you have our kids' best interest at heart. We're going to go with you. And if it doesn't work at that school, I'm not going to throw it in your face and then say, oh, we should have listened to me, We'll just adjust and shift. So it's trusting and leaning into one another.
Speaker 3:I see how important it is to her, so I'm just like I can already tell that if anything, I have to tell her to let some things go.
Speaker 2:Jenny's, like I'm exhausted with the website. You can step in if you want.
Speaker 3:I think she would tell me if she really wanted to. I think now it's become this surprise.
Speaker 1:I don't really know, but yeah no, it was more of like a surprise, but I'm also like I just want to get it done. So I'm like let's just get it done and we can fix it later.
Speaker 3:But there are definitely things where you're like oh. I'm sure it's beautiful. I think you're probably overthinking it. You think yeah?
Speaker 1:Have we met.
Speaker 2:There's usually one of those in every relationship too.
Speaker 1:So that's you, Jenny. I'm quite the overthinker.
Speaker 2:That's my husband too. I'm like, let's just do it. I have there's one. There is a tip that I'll tell people to do in marriages and, again, can go to any relationship. Some of my cousins who are much younger than me will listen to my podcast and they're like this is just helpful with my friendships is. I'll tell people I'm not like a journaling is great, right, Like gratitude journaling, all of that. It doesn't work for me. I'm not that type of journaler.
Speaker 2:I have a journal that John, I think, gave to me in 2020. It is still not full and there's sometimes a random to-do list in it, but usually what it is is like if I'm feeling a more intense emotion. So you guys talked about the anger iceberg with Christine, right? Yes, I love the anger iceberg is the best. When I show it to clients, they're like oh, I'm like you're not angry, You're embarrassed, You're disappointed, You're whatever. So when I'm feeling one of those anger iceberg emotions, usually it's related to my marriage, because that's not a feeling I want to sit in long with him, or I've already sat in it long enough.
Speaker 2:I'll journal and I tell clients to do this all the time, and journaling will do a few things. The first thing it could do is it could show you like you're being petty this doesn't matter Like pick the appetizer or it will. Really lets you get whatever thought you're ruminating on it, gets it stuck out of a loop and gets it flowed out more. I'll only do it for like five minutes, but then it's you get it flowed out so that when you go to your partner if you're going to go to your partner to have the conversation you have your thoughts sorted out, you have your feelings associated with it and you're not just shoving the angry hot potato at your partner Like I don't feel good. You take it. You're being able to say I was really disappointed when X, Y, Z happened. I was really, you know, frustrated when this happened and this is what I wish could have gone different, or I just need you to take some ownership in it. So those are kind of the two things I do also say. If the petty thing keeps coming up repetitively, that probably does also show that a conversation may need to happen, but sometimes just journaling our thoughts.
Speaker 2:Like you said, Rebecca, not everything that comes to the front of my brain needs to come out of my mouth anymore. I'm the same way I used to tell my best friend growing up we went to college together and I used to say that her and I together were like a cigarette and that I was just the white part of a cigarette. And she was the say that her and I together were like a cigarette and that I was just the white part of a cigarette and she was the filter, she was my filter. She could get some of the like. She'd be like don't do it, Don't say it, but like some bad still came out.
Speaker 2:And so I used to be like that too, where I'm like everybody needs to know what I'm thinking all the time and it doesn't it kind of puts more turmoil in your life. I felt for me, and it doesn't it kind of puts more turmoil in your life. I felt for me, and not that that always happened, but being able to sit with your uncomfortable feelings for a little bit and figure out what that looks like. Jenny, it could be just a journal, and then you could do five minutes in the journal and then go suppress it wherever else. You're suppressing the feelings. I do that, I do that as well, but you have it acknowledged and then if you need to talk about it, it's there, and so I'll bring the journals to conversations with John sometimes. He actually recently showed up with a journal and I'm like, excuse me, that's my journal now.
Speaker 1:He's actually a true journaler, but I but, like I'm sure that other people want to know this, people who are married or people who are contemplating divorce or separation. Like what is a quote unquote? Healthy amount of fighting and arguing Like when do you know that it's taken a turn to like Splitsville?
Speaker 2:I think that's different for any relationship. Some relationships that are heading to Splitsville don't argue ever. Sometimes couples will come to me and are like we really don't argue and my first response to them is that's probably your problem. Is there needs to be some? Now, if you're just not an arguing couple like you don't have to argue every week to say you have arguments. But if you're just not, if you're tucking things aside and not sharing resentments or frustrations, that doesn't mean you're heading wrong for divorce. But what does that do over time if we're just not discussing anything? So it's different for everybody.
Speaker 2:One of the biggest things I tell people is the biggest thing with conflict is we feel like at the end of it we have to have a problem solved and a lot of times our conflicts they're not solvable problems. It's like you hurt my feelings. I don't like the way you parented the kids. I don't want to go to your parents this weekend, right, or that might be a solvable problem, but sometimes it's just sitting and talking. So sometimes it's really shifting what the goal of conflict is. So I follow the Gottman method.
Speaker 2:John and Julie Gottman, they're amazing. They've done so many studies on relationships. It's wild, but a lot of the times, the stuff they talk about. When you listen to it you're like, oh, that's kind of common sense, like that just makes sense. And one of the things that he says is we just have to shift the goal of conflict, which is to understand each other more, right, why is this important to you? Why did that upset you? Why did that hurt your feelings? I did not mean to do that, you know. So it's being able just to understand each other more. I do find if you're arguing a lot, you're probably not addressing the bigger topics that need to be addressed. So there's like if we're arguing about the laundry and the dishes, we're not arguing about the laundry and dishes, like what is really underneath the surface.
Speaker 1:So I love that. Yeah, that's the kind of stuff that pushes me over the head.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we are just arguing about the laundry and dishes, but that could be a whole. I feel like that on its own is a whole. I'm trying to figure out how John and I can do a podcast episode on that with, like the household management tasks that do still fall very heavy, I find, on the women not always, but they do and what does that look like and what's that load we're carrying and all of that. But it's like these unspoken things.
Speaker 1:So like in our house we joke like I tell Nate, I'm like I keep the kid alive, you take care of the dogs. That's the rule. I'll do the bedside you do the grass yeah you do that. You do the yard, I'll do the hair.
Speaker 2:Like you said, there are some unspoken rules and I have a lot of conversations with people about, like, hey, the human body, women and men, I believe we are truly wired for different things. That doesn't mean I can't do the grass, or well, we have yard people that come and do the grass, because who really wants to do that in July? There you go, I do send the Venmo, I send that, and so I do think that there's some level of acceptance of like, if the kids are sick, I want to stay home because I'm mom and I want to nurture them and I want to take care of them. And so I do think there's some level of we don't want to negate, like, what we are as women and what we are as men. Now, that doesn't mean we can't all do the laundry too. So it's just a big.
Speaker 1:It's a bigger topic for sure see we agreed a long time ago that so laundry is like a non-negotiable, like I don't want him touching my stuff and I don't want to there are oh, so you do your own laundry.
Speaker 2:I'm like I don't want you in my basket.
Speaker 1:I want you going to dry stuff that I don't want you to dry and just I'll do me and the kids laundry. You do your own, so that's it.
Speaker 2:It cracks me up like so when we get to household management conversations in sessions. 95 of the time it's well, you won't even let me help with the laundry. And it's like, well, yeah, because you dry everything, but there's so much more things you can do, so so I tell people, get the laundry sorter and you put the ones that can't go in the dryer in one and then, and then it's a good.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I could trust it.
Speaker 2:I don't trust control issues there, that's all right, but if you own it, then it's like yeah, you're like.
Speaker 3:I'm going to do the laundry. I promise I won't get mad at you about it. Well, that's the thing, right?
Speaker 3:You can't then take that resentment if you have to have that ownership of like, okay, well, I totally understand that. That was. My big thing when I started therapy was I didn't want to bring resentment into a place where I was already concerned. But I actually never had resentment about the dishes or the laundry. What I more had was like I felt like I wasn't getting other needs met and so that was like I was like I couldn't really care less about the laundry. First of all, I'm totally OCD. I am bananas about it. So I'm like I know that this is a driving factor for me and my own mental health. I like everything cleaner, like everything in its place, and some of that's what we talked about with Christina with this like check marks, mentality of like not being able to relax. But I also know that if there's chaos around me I feel chaotic and I don't thrive in that environment. So I completely own all of that. That I never I don't think I ever once made a fuss about, but it was your emotional side?
Speaker 3:Yes, and like the support side was where I just didn't feel like I could, we could get there and I felt like that was a lot bigger than laundry.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that, and that is a lot of times the shift we make and that's why sometimes I get concerned. I'm like I want to do this episode on household management tasks, but a lot of times it is so much deeper, it's that emotional. What does it mean to be emotionally connected to your partner? And that is so different for men and women, from person to person, and it's tough, it's tough to figure it out. And that's where, you know, jenny, some of it comes in is like okay, well, what do I need? To feel emotionally connected to somebody?
Speaker 3:I was going to say are there fairly common like female needs and male needs as far as what it looks like for connection? Obviously, men are more physical in some ways.
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, so one of the things that Gottman found in some of the studies that he did is that, which I just think is a sick, sick joke is that for men to feel emotionally connected, that typically happens through like sexual intimacy, but for women, their emotional connection needs to be met to want to engage in sex, and so it's like this very vicious cycle, and then it can be hard for men because they're like okay, well, I made the dinner plans and I made the this and I made the that, and sometimes I'll tell them Then I'm like you're doing it because you want to get laid.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, so I think this. Well, so I have started coaching some couples. I'm like give your wife a hug and tell them that's all you want is a hug. Have your weekly date nights, and if it ends in sex, beautiful. And if it doesn't go to bed without huffing and puffing, right Like we have to have some of these moments of emotional intimacy, whatever that looks like for different people, where then the physical can come and it doesn't feel so transactional.
Speaker 3:Is that why I'm so obsessed with my girlfriends, though, right now is because they get so much more emotional intimacy from them. Because, like, we joke about this hinge thing. But and I had I actually had a man on my DMs the other day asked about how I have so many girlfriends and I was like I don't think you understand how important they are to me and I don't even think that's right now, but, like even in sports growing up, like the emotional intimacy that I can get from my girlfriends, I just don't find a man giving to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they are out there. Okay, I do want to promise that they are out there and sometimes it's their own growth.
Speaker 2:So I always say in marriage counseling, like we're spending our lives growing right, so you're growing as an individual, your partner's growing in as an individual, and hopefully you're doing that alongside each other, supporting each other in that Right. And so what it looks like with a husband may not look like what it looks like with a girlfriend, but that emotional connection can be there and I do think some men probably need. I'll be curious to see what, you know, the generations we're raising are going to be like and how the men are. Are they going to be a little bit more emotionally in tune? Because it's allowed a little bit more right now? And so I think, and I, I, when I see a lot of men be open and vulnerable in my office, one, it's like the most touching thing I can see between a couple, but I just see a little bit of like lightness from them as well. So it can happen. Some of them do have it, not some. I shouldn't say like that. They all have the capability, but they do exist.
Speaker 3:No, and I love that Like and I believe and I know that I couldn't get the same kind of emotional connectivity that I could with a man from my girlfriends, but I certainly know that I can go with them and receive some part of that connectivity that maybe I was missing, or am? I mean obviously like I come home to myself at night, so I don't get into bed.
Speaker 3:I don't divulge my day, but I wasn't doing that before either, and it's not right. It wasn't because that wasn't what I wanted. I just it wasn't something I was doing. And so now I'm like, okay, in some ways it makes me want it even more. But then in other ways I'm like, okay, well then I'm going to go out to dinner with Sandra, I'm going to go out to dinner with Jenny and I'm just going to do the thing where we like unpack a million things and I can still have that bond. It's not the same, but it does feel some need that I have to be connected.
Speaker 2:I think when you find it you're going to be like oh there it is. There was somebody that I know that went through a pretty tough divorce and then through social media I saw that she was like away with somebody and I'm like I'm so happy because she did talk to me beforehand. She was more of an acquaintance and was kind of just asking my opinion on some things when they were still trying to work it out. And she's been very open on social media about sorting through kind of like you are. I'll give you a quick glimpse that I'm sorting through this and I messaged her I said I'm so happy for you. She said I never understood what people meant when they said they married their best friend and I don't I get so teary eyed sometimes.
Speaker 2:And she was like she get fine, I can tell you do, I love it and that's so you're going to gonna. I think, when you do find it, what one of the things I love about you is you're not just like down on all men because you've had yeah, it's like they're out there and they're capable and the right matches there for everybody and the right emotional intimacy can be there for everybody. And even when the emotional intimacy can be good in a relationship, it's not always great, right, like there's life, there's work, there's kids, there's all those things. But when you find it, you're going to be like, ah, it does exist.
Speaker 3:I didn't even know this was missing from my life. No, I and I'm not down on my ex-husband and I'm definitely not down on men I just, ultimately, at the end of the day, like I wanted us to be able to be friends, because we started as friends and then we were more intimate and then, you know, I was young and he was young, and then now we've both grown and we've had kids and we've moved, so we've had all these really big life things.
Speaker 3:I don't blame him for sure. I just had to say like I don't think we want to do this for five more years or 10 more years, and when we're 80, I don't want to have the same conversation anymore. So let's protect our children and our friendship and let's hit pause and be done, and then, we still now like certainly there are little things right.
Speaker 3:We know how to push each other's buttons, but I will say I try very hard not to, because I'm not interested in continuing to play the game that we played. I would much rather be friends, share the cost of gymnastics, go back and forth over the cool things that they're doing at school and have them. I mean, we went out to dinner, the four of us, the other day.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that because your focus is shifted. Now we don't have this marriage to save. Now we have these two amazing girls to raise, and that's what it is. It doesn't have to be about our, our egos or whatever it's. We have these wonderful kids to raise, yep, and I just want it to be that simple.
Speaker 3:I think our families are going to have a harder time figuring that out, but I lately I've just been like I can't help you. I am telling you what is happening and you have got to talk to somebody else. Poor Christina or whoever is Matt, you know Matt's family is using me.
Speaker 3:I'm like I am working so hard to make this important and both of us are and the girls understand it and we're very careful about how we speak about each other and like how we present each other, even at school functions. I mean, we have friends who still have no idea I had somebody at the art show. How come I never see you anymore in pembroke? I'm like, wait what?
Speaker 2:I was like she's like wait what just assumed you got a new car. She's like right, that is so, but it and it's. I love that. You're like this is just the. This is just the stage we're in and where we shifted things and it's going to look different and I'll you'll get your Nate one day, right?
Speaker 3:Well, when somebody said like you need to picture the finish line and then you need to work backwards, and so I was like we're going to go to our kids' weddings, we're going to go to their graduations, we're going to be at all of these things. What is the point of it? Feeling like poison for everyone, and I understand it's confusing for people who are used to a traditional divorce, but it's just unnecessary roughness when we're going to all come out of the laundry at the same time anyways.
Speaker 2:Well and here's. They can all be confused, but your girls are going to feel so supported and their wedding day gets to be about them and not where mom and dad are sitting at a table, and their graduation day it gets to be about them. I've seen both sides of the coins, cause I do also work with um. I started my career working with children. That's how I ended up in marriage.
Speaker 2:I started my career working with children, worked in group homes, residential facilities, foster care. I was working full time when I had Layla when I went to go have Maxwell. Daycare is expensive so I stayed home with the goal that then I would start my private practice. So I went to go work with children because that's what I did, and then I realized, well, I really want to work with the parents because they can support the children best. Then I realized their marriages need help and that was the whole kind of trajectory of it all. But I work with some teenagers because they're my babies and I love having a few of them sell my caseload and I've seen the world of having to move the parents like chess pieces and then just being able to show up to therapy with both parents and have it be about the kid and not the parents arguments, and so that's. It's just all the different maneuvering of relationships, isn't it?
Speaker 1:You're doing so good, Rebecca. I'm so proud of you as a child with divorce. Like I wish that my family would have handled things like you handle.
Speaker 3:It's not perfect, but I, I really am. I try to be so thoughtful, and if the only person that leaves this with any trauma is me, perfect, I feel like I got big enough shoulders. I got this spoken like a true mom right okay, well, I'm gonna say this was so much fun, I think we're going to have to have you back.
Speaker 2:Well, I would love that.
Speaker 3:This was so insightful. I cannot wait to see what everyone says. We will be sharing all the feedback. Oh, that'll be so exciting.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:And just real quick. So your podcast is called Rising Marriage Podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:On all the podcast platforms.
Speaker 2:Well, I probably I'm just spotify and apple, what are the?
Speaker 1:I probably need to ask you guys what? Okay, yes, as well, in our, in our social media thank you, and this has been fun.
Speaker 2:I said I did a little insta story before and I have been having conversations with you guys in my head listening to all all your episodes, so I'm like, oh, I get to join a real one. This is so exciting.
Speaker 1:So, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. This was amazing. You're the best. We are definitely having you back. Thank you so much. Thank you, bye, bye, bye.