John Wilson in Conversation with Mick Cooper: From Cult to Containment

Imagine growing up in a community where the group is considered more important than the individual. This was the reality for our guest, John Wilson, a therapist whose unique upbringing in a cult drastically shaped his perspective on life and then therapy. His compelling journey from a highly controlled group to the therapeutic world offers fascinating insights into the impact of cult mentality on individual self-worth and community dynamics.

We explore the importance of creating safe spaces for human interaction, an idea that John holds dear. He shares how his personal history helps him understand group dynamics and build environments where individuals can express themselves freely and safely. His protective masculine energy, a response to his upbringing, now aids others in connecting with their inner child and feeling heard and respected. It's an intriguing exploration of how personal experiences can guide us towards fostering trust, respect, and a robust sense of community.

As we wrap up our conversation, John outlines his vision for transforming violence and building an empathetic world. He illuminates how he aids individuals in understanding violent and destructive desires and guides them towards non-violent, constructive behaviors. John embodies an optimistic belief in an empathetic world, believing that technology can bring us closer together. His experiences and work serve as an inspiring testament to the power of personal journeys in shaping our perspectives and approaches to building a better world. Prepare for a riveting conversation that showcases the power of therapy in effecting social change.

This Podcast is sponsored by Onlinevents 

Transcript

Mick Cooper: 0:00

Well, welcome John. We wanted to do this series of interviews, discussions about how therapy can contribute to social change and social justice, but I wanted to start by asking you tell us something unusual about yourself, something not by way of introduction. There's only not a lot of people know.

John Wilson: 0:25

I've got a couple of. Well, I think what a lot of people don't know that will really inform this conversation is that I grew up in a cult, definitely an organisation as I think of I would think of it as a cult called Joe's Witnesses, and that had a massive impact on shaping my life. My mum and dad joined that group when I was two years old, so it's right in at the beginning of my life, I guess. So yeah, something unusual.

Mick Cooper: 1:02

Thanks for sharing that, john. Do you want to say I mean, you said it had a massive impact on your life Do you want to say a bit about how, if you don't mind?

John Wilson: 1:11

Yes, well, I think, being born into a high control group, like every aspect of your thinking is impacted.

John Wilson: 1:24

So I've been in a kind of almost a, probably for the last almost 20 years, deprogramming myself out of how that group thinks about the world, thinks about family life, community life, individual life yeah, I mean that's a bit vague, isn't it? Like everything from how you engage with the wider community I guess outside of that group all the way through to how do I think about myself? Like one of the things about the group, by the time I was born into it it wasn't celebrating birthdays, so and that's I mean there's a whole actions around that, whether you have a party or gifts. But I think there's something deeper in terms of how the individual is thought about and how the individual isn't prized. So the community interests are prized above all individuals. And I mean, as a therapist now, I would think about there needs to be both of that, like I want to be in community and I want to have a real self regard too. So there's both of that, but it was really skewed in that community.

Mick Cooper: 2:51

It was really skewed towards just the community and there was in the sense of also individual kind of worth or importance.

John Wilson: 3:00

Right all the way through to the end of life. So when people in the community would die and the community would put on a would take care of the funeral service, like the individual will be a really small part of that experience. You know, in the service it was thought of as an opportunity to recruit people from outside of the community that would come along, maybe other family members, people who knew that person. So even in those kind of last moments of remembering someone together, that the individual was obscured all the way through the life cycle, yeah, yeah.

Mick Cooper: 3:48

Yeah, how do you think that kind of affected your journey into therapy and becoming a therapist?

John Wilson: 3:58

Yeah, I mean I as I left school. I left school early so I didn't go into further and higher education and so I was spending most of my time working in the community doing the outreach that the community does. Lots of people know about kind of door-to-door work that Jehovah's Witnesses do, and I was kind of paying my way through life as a cleaner and developed a little business doing that and I think by the time I've done that for about 10 years. I needed a different kind of psychological stimulation in my working life. So I was looking for something else to do.

John Wilson: 4:44

Anybody who knows me at online events knows I'm a bit of a techie kind of guy. So I had thought about going into technology and I also wanted something where I wasn't starting at the very beginning because I mean, by that time I was married, I had a mortgage, so I was looking at like how could I supplement my income without going right at the beginning of a career? And so I was looking at the therapeutic education because I was doing a lot of one-to-one work in the community, a lot of group work. So I kind of approached the counseling world thinking, well, maybe I've already got some skills. I'm not starting completely at the beginning, completely at the beginning, and that's what drew me into training as a therapist.

John Wilson: 5:37

Of course, once I got into that world, definitely at the beginning lots of the skills were not transferable and definitely the philosophical positions were not transferable at all and, like for a lot of people, once I was in that training experience, it had a massive impact on me personally how I was seeing the world, how I was seeing other people, which was resonating with things in me that were really struggling with the community. I think once I then was really fully into my adult life, there was lots of things going on in the living of the community and in the belief system that were really jarring for me. And now I guess I found some things in the therapeutic philosophy that I was learning that had more of a resonance for sure, and it really had a big impact on me then leaving that community behind.

Mick Cooper: 6:45

So there was kind of questions and concerns already emerging for you. And then when you came into the therapeutic world maybe not deliberately, but that and you did a person centered training, didn't you? And a lot of large group work and very person-centered core values, and I guess that kind of confirmed or validated some of the questions that you were asking and you left the community.

John Wilson: 7:12

Right, yeah, so I spent a long time not engaged, if that makes sense. I was very engaged, I was very involved, had a lot of responsibility in the community and I had given that up for a long time and then it took a long time, but I was then eventually excommunicated from the community as well, and the JW community was a shorthand for JW's witness. That's called disfellowshipping, and so that community in my family although not all of my family respect this but are not allowed to talk to me, I guess and some of my family have already exited as well. So, but that's a painful process Because it's not for my parents and a couple of my siblings. It's not that they've decided not to be in relationship with me because of those rules. So yeah, it's a very painful process.

Mick Cooper: 8:15

Very painful. Yeah, I can really imagine that. To have that disconnection from your original community and then into a kind of different world, yeah, yeah. But would you say that you've thrived in the person centered in therapist world and found a different community now?

John Wilson: 8:36

I mean that's a good question Because I think there's also something at times a little bit cult-like about the person-centered world, so and maybe that like maybe all communities like struggle to kind of come together and be open, like that's not an easy thing for us as humans to do. Like I have a real love of the value system and the philosophy but I've enjoyed the community and also struggled with it and maybe that's a very human thing and probably my experiences of being in a community that is, that controlled a cult environment. I'm probably oversensitized to being in groups and the kind of influence that groups can have. So I think it's also not hard, it's not easy for me to really join in completely, I think. So I think some of that is also in me, like I think my organism, my body's just really wearing large groups of people and how they might operate.

Mick Cooper: 9:53

Yeah, I can really hear that wearing us, I guess because of your earlier experiences at JW more or less, but also perhaps a desire to kind of recreate that community and being a different community. I guess you're so familiar with that.

John Wilson: 10:08

Well, I think I've been kind of psychologically and my cognitively I can go oh no, this is so good to be out. But I do know that I can really miss being with lots of people. I think that's what I'm used to. I'm just being with people all the time and I do look for that too, I guess yeah.

Mick Cooper: 10:33

John, you've been very involved in kind of therapy for social justice. You were very involved in the development of the task network European social change. You were really asked on developing the Ukraine conference which was supporting Ukraine. Where do you think I mean it's been fascinating hearing some of that history, john where do you think that commitment and interest in social justice is used and social change comes from? In you?

John Wilson: 11:03

I was thinking about that before a conversation and I mean it's in that community, like a lot of Christian communities, is very, very concerned with a different world and a better world, and I mean it's a millennial belief system, so it's a kind of belief that there's a better world coming on earth and that we should be doing what we can to live better in community now.

John Wilson: 11:36

So, although I think that I mean I think about it as a kind of really failed experiment and has been damaging to me, I've spent a lot of my life in that community was thinking about how do we treat each other better, how can we manage and how can we manage conflict.

John Wilson: 11:58

So I think those that concern with how are we going to do better and how are we going to get to a world where we're all taking care of each other in a way that's good for us all has been a thing that's been all the way through my life, and so I've then looked for other outlets for that energy. I think when I was reading about Roger's work in terms of the big group work that he was doing and looking for ways for people to come together, that really kind of spoke to me. So I guess I've put a lot of energy into like organizing and being part of larger groups. The work that we've done together at the Ukraine conference, being part of the task network, all feels like a different way of trying to do relationship in a way that's more helpful.

Mick Cooper: 13:07

So that question of how can we treat others better and how can we create a world in which others relate more positively to each other is a question that's kind of been there for you through your life. Is that with the JW took a particular form, but that kind of fundamental question is there, maybe not in a not kind of associated with JW anymore, but it's still very fundamental to you.

John Wilson: 13:34

Absolutely yeah, yeah, and I think that community didn't, according to its history, didn't start like this, but it became a very controlled environment and often that's what's happened, like that's what happens, I think, as humans, when we get scared, when we feel like our goals are not kind of coming to fruition, we get, we tend to control more and more. We can do that in our groups and I think that's what I've appreciated about the person centered philosophy. That has an idea of that. We don't need to exert that control over each other to create environments where we can flourish. In fact, it's almost the opposite, it's true, like the more space there is, the more we can grow into something that's more helpful for ourselves and each other. We're more pro-social, I guess, and I think that's why that community didn't have a pro-social kind of trust in the human organism, and I really love that about the person centered approach, whether it's. I mean, these are highly debated philosophies, aren't they?

Mick Cooper: 14:49

But I just love that idea that, in general, humans are pro-social and so when you were asking that question about how we can treat each other better, a really fundamental starting point for you is something around trusting the other.

John Wilson: 15:08

Absolutely Trusting the other and creating the right environment.

Mick Cooper: 15:14

So, john, something that means creating the right environment.

John Wilson: 15:18

Well, like, I think when we're scared as humans, there's no telling what we'll do and we can do the most awful things, and I can see that in the JW community. Like, the severing of people from their primal bonds, you know, like from their parents, as a way of control, is incredibly cruel and psychologically violent, emotionally violent, and that to me all comes from fear, and so I'm going to mix those things up. The work that I do now very concerned with creating environments where we feel welcomed and people feel safe, and then that pro-social nature can come out. So I think it's not just the idea that, well, people will just be naturally pro-social, I think we also need an environment for that, and I think that takes a lot of energy and a lot of strength to create that container for us.

Mick Cooper: 16:30

So when you say container creating that safe environment, what does that actually mean?

John Wilson: 16:43

Well, yeah, it's a great question because it's easy to use that language, isn't it? I mean, I think about when I'm a facilitator, like there's an edge and so and there's a boundary, and so I think about what the group can get up to in this space. Like I want that, like there's lots of space for conflict and emotion and difficulty and for the stuff that we enjoy more, you know, when we're feeling a lot of appreciation and affection for each other, but there's an edge if that's crossed, that maybe that's physical violence or maybe there's an edge around psychological violence. That is a facilitator, if someone goes to that place and they're not able to come back in, then I'm going to hold the capacity to exclude the person from the group and also the other way around, that people don't get in. Like once we set up that container, like that edge is not to be traversed by someone else who just feels like they might want to come in and do some damage.

John Wilson: 17:54

And I mean that's really it's probably not going to happen. But I think the sense of that in the group and the sense that the facilitation team holds that boundary in an incredible like, and I think that's as worthy as I like that I would put myself in danger or I would put like I would take real risks to make sure that that is preserved for the group. Even just the feeling of that I think speaks to the organism, the kind of embodied experience of the rest of the group, and that I think that's been an interesting journey in the person's centre approach because that maybe speaks to more qualities that we might think around leadership and boundaries in the way that maybe is not in all the parts of the person's centre approach. But I would definitely think about that as my role, that this is not a boundary like a space without boundary, and I will act on that and in a very profound way.

John Wilson: 19:03

You know, like yeah.

Mick Cooper: 19:05

I mean. What I hear you say, John, is the phrase that comes to mind is putting yourself in harm's way, and that what you're describing is your belief that people have pro-social good potential within them. But for that to be realised, for that to come out, they need some protection and they need people to be able to psychologically mainly as well as use, kind of same, physically protect them, creating a boundary in which they can feel that they're not going to be harmed.

Mick Cooper: 19:41

And if people can feel that they're not going to be psychologically harmed, then they're more able to express that positive side of themselves. And I guess that leads to what you say, john, about how much in JW things and damaging behaviours came from a sense of fear, where perhaps people felt that they had to protect themselves or do things on the basis of what they were scared of. Your role as a facilitator is to try and protect people from that kind of existential fear.

John Wilson: 20:17

Absolutely and, of course, with all of our theory and philosophical positions, or I believe it's all autobiographical, you know like I felt like I didn't have that in my family unit, that someone was going to put themselves in harm's way to make sure I was okay, and I think that's a very deep rooted thing in the human, like to grow up in a family where, like, the parental figures will really hold that protective kind of force.

John Wilson: 20:49

In fact, it felt like the other way around I was exposed to very harmful forces within the community. So, of course, like I take that role that I feel like was missing for me and it's a way of trying to I don't know if it's a masculine energy or something or the archetype that I kind of inhabit like finding a place for that energy that's in service of who I'm together with, I guess, and the group I'm with or the community that I'm with, as opposed for it to kind of go somewhere toxic and we use that expression about masculinity that it can be really toxic but how to use those things that have been handed down to us through millennia that is helpful for each other and service of each other.

Mick Cooper: 21:48

What would that actually, that kind of protection? I guess you're talking about a kind of protective masculine energy, as you describe it, rather than, as you say, kind of toxic masculine energy in a group. What would that mean? Doing that means watching out for when people are, when there's threats. How would you kind of conceptualize that or describe it in kind of practical terms?

John Wilson: 22:18

Yeah, definitely watching out for the threat in the group for someone to themselves, cause often that's happening. I mean, we're often talking about how other people are threats but like, like, can I really meet someone in the way that they might be damaging themselves, you know, and really get into contact and conversation about, like I want to look, like I want to be with you and in that, and maybe there's a part of them that can then be that's scared about the world around them, but if they can feel also that there's some kind of person who can hold the safety, I mean I'm really into all the, all the theory about configurations of self and sub personalities.

Mick Cooper: 23:10

It's not even what that means, cause people want to get familiar with that.

John Wilson: 23:14

Well, they should definitely read your book with and you're always short round. But well, I feel myself that there's different people inside of me. We're running an event yesterday actually for the hearing voices community and that's really a position that that community holds, like there's lots of parts to us and they can speak to us in different ways. So, yeah, coming. So definitely, when I'm thinking about myself and I'm hearing from other people, I can often experience very childlike states or very strong adult states or lots of different parts of the person.

John Wilson: 23:55

And what's really worked for me and the work that I've done with other people is like those parts getting into relationships somehow and maybe there's a part of a person that's the volume is way up in another part that's hardly getting a voice at all and often when I'm working with men, that kind of part that can be a real warrior has somehow not got their role right so they can be really aggressive and attacking other people, attacking themselves, and maybe that's because they haven't felt another presence that they can really engage with.

John Wilson: 24:38

You know, there's almost that. You know when boys are grown up there's a bit of wrestling or something, but there's something about the being resisted as well and feeling like there's, it's almost like a hugging or a holding that can go. Oh, like there's someone who's as big as me and not feeling like that can just mean that that masculine energy can really pour over in ways that are not helpful. So, like I mean, a couple of years ago we ran at Temenos, an all male group student group, really, really unusual. There was lots of that kind of holding and resisting energy so that those parts of those men could really kind of go a bit wild and feel that they were safe in that and at the same time maybe there's also a little boy that just needs someone to notice them and hold them.

Mick Cooper: 25:29

So there's something for you. They're talking about creating that safety is about stepping in with the person themselves and maybe supporting different voices. Containment means not allowing particular voices, maybe very dominant voices, just to run riot and to do whatever they want in the person and psyche, but being somebody who will support them, support the different voices, be there in that kind of, as you describe, masculine Father energy, perhaps masculine protector energy, as a way of giving each part of the person's space to be heard and to be respected and valued. Something like that, john.

John Wilson: 26:18

Definitely.

John Wilson: 26:18

And then that's how we'd see the group too.

John Wilson: 26:21

You know, like I might see someone in the group that's like I can see what you're up to, like I can see that there's something about you know that could just explode here or that might really go after someone and like for that person just to feel like that someone else can see it and can help them contain that energy too. And that isn't about not getting into the conflict, but it's like this can only go so far. I'm gonna keep you safe and I'm gonna keep the other person safe, even if and I think the space that I would be up for is probably much bigger than lots of colleagues may feel comfortable with but I think, feeling like that, there is that kind of paternal energy there that can hold it. It's not gonna completely get out of control. And there might be someone else in the group that's feeling very small and vulnerable and I've got my eye on them too. And I mean I'm talking about I'm usually working in teams, if at least two and between us we're kind of holding all of that.

Mick Cooper: 27:25

When you say safe, John, you don't mean not getting hurt at all, do you? You mean something about not being really hurt, not being traumatized, not being. People are gonna get hurt, sometimes in groups, and they're gonna hurt themselves, but it's something more than that, isn't it that you're trying to protect.

John Wilson: 27:49

Absolutely Like and I definitely, in the work I do and I talk about this before people come into that work that we're probably all going to come out here a bit bruised, like it's a kind of contact work and that's bruising and there's lots yeah, there's going to be lots of that and lots of holding in that too, so that it doesn't get to the point where someone is like savaged or someone is it's kind of just completely attacked and thrown, thrown away kind of thing like it's. So in that bruising we want to hold everybody then, that everybody feels that they've got support and care. And I think you can only really do that kind of contact for work If you really care deeply about everybody. I think that's the thing like. If otherwise it's, I think it's dangerous really, like we need to feel cared about to be able to allow ourselves to be bruised and trust that someone is going to make sure that we're not just eaten up and thrown out of the circle.

Mick Cooper: 28:58

So what do you do, john, as a facilitator, when you've got a group and actually you're thinking I don't like this person very much or you know you're struggling to feel cared for someone? Does that happen? And if so, what do you do?

John Wilson: 29:14

Yeah, I mean absolutely it does. And well, in my better moments, because I'm a big believer in like, I'm sure that's something about what's going on in that person. Like their life, their early life, has created something where they haven't been able to like themselves, they haven't been loved, and so they come into the world in the way that makes me have that feeling of them, you know, where I feel like I don't want to have that care, I want to do something really unhelpful, and so I think we communicate that kind of vibe to each other so that we get the same experience. You know someone who's had a really, you know they haven't been looked after, they haven't been loved.

John Wilson: 30:14

There's something about repeating that experience. They come into the group and everybody, everybody hates them, you know, and I'm having that experience too, and it's like how am I going to interrupt that? How am I going to offer that personal experience that is not a repetition. And I think that's something at times in the person-centered approach, in the reflections that we might miss, like we might repeat the experience of the person and the bit that I want to do is interrupt it like that, and that might, that might look really brutal. You know, someone is really trying to in. Brutal is a difficult word, I think, for a lot of people, but I think that intervention about this is how you are in the world. This is what you're putting into my body. How are we going to get to something different than you and how am I going to communicate a care and an affection for you might not be gentle, especially working with systems that are really very, very robust.

Mick Cooper: 31:19

John, what you're talking about is the importance of challenging somebody, maybe even being brutal, perhaps is the word to somebody, but what you've said before is that it's about drawing a line, not savaging somebody, not trying to annihilate them. There's something about being able to pick up on things and give feedback, but there's a line you're describing and the work is about having that very clear line between what's okay in the sense of challenge, but there is a very clear line that you're not going to leave this group, having been savaged by everybody, without, without any kind of care, or or or, or or holding.

John Wilson: 32:09

Absolutely and that might even mean interrupting the whole group. It's like because there is that in the human thing about like the person who feels unsafe has to be put out of the group and there's loads of different ways that humans in groups, that we can do that to someone and the the noticing of that allowing space for the difficulties, but holding that age like this person is a human too. You know, like nobody gets, nobody gets to have that treatment. We'll need to interrupt all of us in that process.

John Wilson: 32:51

And there's a beautiful film called the work where in prisons in America, like men doing this work with each other in a very physical way. I mean, I think often in the kind of groups I'm in or like training groups that I'm in, there's not the contract for that physical touch in the same way, but you watch that film and like men are just, you know, really exploding and there's other guys holding on to them and there's lots of swearing and lashing out and what could just make me weak when I think about it, because it's. I think this is hard for all of us and particularly my experience of myself and other men like having someone holding us when we're in that place is huge, I think. Oh my God.

Mick Cooper: 33:44

Yeah. I can really hear the emotion as you talk about that. There's something really touching for you. What is that, John?

John Wilson: 33:54

I didn't have that experience and I think there's lots of people in the world that didn't have that experience that someone is not stopping the raging but can hold it. There's someone strong enough that can hold the raging that comes out of the human body, and it might need to be a whole group of people doing that. And I think there's something so helpful for us that we can go beyond the polite holding the safety as a kind of politeness and staying away from each other. I think there's a real loneliness and a kind of desolation in that, and I think in the UK we can be really good at that. We're not lashing out at someone but we're also leaving with abandon the other person and there's something about being able to hold all that energy that's come from our difficult, maybe traumatic, experiences that it can be absorbed into the community and we're still human and that can come out and there's a calm that can then come and to the human body after that, even despite some of the most traumatic experiences that someone's had.

Mick Cooper: 35:21

It's a very powerful image, that holding, and that that holding is somebody in, as you say, a kind of safe space, is a protective holding from others and themselves, and I guess for people who haven't experienced that holding that's enormously powerful and important and lead and can support a calm that maybe can't be there without feeling that there is some holding.

Mick Cooper: 35:50

To experience the world without feeling that there's any protection, as you're describing your own childhood is incredibly painful and frightening. Yeah, john, I wanted to ask you about. You know you've described some really powerful processes in therapy and also that kind of begins to segue into the wider world. But how do you think that this can be? You know what you're describing. What implications does it have at the kind of wider social political level? What can it contribute? What can these understandings contribute to a different world, maybe a more just world and more peaceful world? I know that's a difficult question. It's a massive question.

John Wilson: 36:35

We're often thinking about this, the element. I mean I was thinking about the courage that it takes to be in a group and for the group to allow that kind of energy and stay with it. I think you know I'm talking about my better days. You know, like we've all got our our, unlike the courage to go there as a culture and not turn the other person into I don't know something unhuman, like if we could I mean it seems impossible to think of it but like if we could all offer each other that, as opposed to the other person is someone who needs to be killed or punished, or I mean, yeah, and I mean I'm talking about those things, but I also know about that place in myself.

John Wilson: 37:38

I come from the clan culture in Scotland. That's my kind of you know. That's the genes that are in my body, so that there is something about that need to savage the other person, to eliminate the threats. So that is also in my male body and I think that's why I think a lot about like how can I take the strength that comes in that body Like could, could we be in the community with and someone who's just cannot contain themselves and is damaging other people? That's what's going on in that prison work and just give them a place where they can feel like there's someone who cares about them and who can hold that energy. There's something so unsafe in the world when we think there's no one like we're the most powerful person in the space. That's lots of us. Power is so interesting in that we are like we want to have our power. We need that freedom, but we also need some containment too.

Mick Cooper: 38:41

Yeah, I wonder, john, what you're describing something about taking that form of that word, kind of masculine, savage energy that can be expressed in kind of destructiveness and violence and this trying to annihilate the other and helping people see that actually that can be transformed into a protective energy and an energy that keeps other people safe. And it's kind of too size of masculinity in a way, isn't it? And there's something about that journey from one to the other, perhaps through having experienced it ourselves or having the opportunity to experience that.

John Wilson: 39:24

Absolutely, and and I think like it's one thing to talk about about someone has deeply frightened or damaged someone who's close to me. My initial reaction isn't how am I going to get a hold of that person and hug them and hold them and or get in some kind of community together so that they can be, they can find their way to a different place? That is not the first place my body goes to. It goes, it does go to a place of violence, that's you know. Thinking about that, what can I do? It's so I think we also need to kind of support each other. Like how can someone else help me get to that place where I can go right? Let's use our energy in a different way.

Mick Cooper: 40:16

So, john, how do you help people make that shift? How do you help, for instance, palestinians in Gaza make the shift from that initial hatred and desire for violence that comes out of the hurt that, in that case, they've experienced? There's so many Israelis have, as well to something that then is more constructive.

John Wilson: 40:40

Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about this every day right now. I guess I mean you, so I know you're thinking about similar things all the time, mick and I. I don't have the answer for that.

John Wilson: 40:53

You know it's like. You know my children were there. If they had, you know if I was living in Gaza or living in Israel and my children were dead. I don't know. It's like I think this is this is a huge, huge question. And I mean I've had this kind of fantasy when the Ukraine war started.

John Wilson: 41:24

It's kind of his fantasy of like could if the whole of Europe drove into the Ukraine, like I mean, we all drove our cars there, it just somehow wouldn't be possible to continue the war. You know, I don't have many hundred million people in living Europe. You know, and sometimes, you know, I live some of the of my time in Paris. It would be like a day and a half two days drive from there. You know, wouldn't be impossible. And somehow, if we all not as a sitting, but almost like if we could have that kind of experience of where everybody it's like we were not to attack everyone but just say, right, all those Russian boys, all those Ukrainian families, and then we all kind of drove down towards the Middle East and somehow could take care of everyone, I mean it sounds, it's fantasy, but somehow like the whole world could just be in that holding process together.

Mick Cooper: 42:24

You're talking again about putting yourself in harm's way, aren't you, john, about that potential for people to protect and maybe something about people who are outside of the immediate conflict having some role or some responsibility in being present to it and not just avoiding it?

John Wilson: 42:47

Yeah, like how to put it. I think that's right. How, how can we put ourselves in harm's way usefully? You know, if I drove to the Ukraine right now or, you know, was in Israel or the Palestinian territories, I wouldn't be helpful, you know. I just and this is the big question mark, isn't it? How we, how, as you say, the Palestinian families, the Israeli families, how all the other families around the world? The conflict is not contained to there. We're seeing it in lots. There's conflict in other countries that's deeply connected to what's happening in the war and, yeah, it's a massive question, mike.

Mick Cooper: 43:39

There's something you describe in the journal about kind of awareness, and I think what you're saying is that you can't get rid of that kind of feelings of violence or that, those kind of very destructive feelings or needs or wants or desires. But what you can do is that you can maybe recognize them, maybe we can recognize them, maybe we can talk about them, maybe we can help other people recognize them and through that, something about those feelings don't have to be translated into violent, destructive behaviors. Maybe the awareness allows for some transformation to happen, that there's some possibility of turning into some other kind of expression, expressing it in a different way.

John Wilson: 44:32

Yeah, like that's what we do every day in the counselling rooms, isn't it? I mean, definitely I very actively look for transformation for the people I work with. I'm looking for transformation in how I live my life, yeah, and this is what we need. I think we're trying. I hope what's going on is that we're trying to evolve to like a kind of the next level of empathy and connection with each other and we're just trying to struggle towards that and it's a very messy, awful, distressing process, but I hope that's what you know. Like I kind of have that belief that humans are trying to kind of move forward. Like I wouldn't want to be living centuries ago, that feels like an even more terrifying time to live in. And like some of the world has managed to find some more safety and we need to have that for everyone. Like everyone needs to feel that they and their family can feel safe before we can think about any kind of transformation, I guess. But even getting to safety is a huge question right now.

Mick Cooper: 45:55

And it's a huge, complex question and difficult one. Do you have any sense of how we make that transition towards a more empathic, caring, protective culture?

John Wilson: 46:15

I mean the thing that does it for me is really hearing from the other person and I really hear about the other person's experience. That usually shifts something for me, and it's hard to do that when I feel unsafe and frightened. So having spaces that feel safe and I can hear the other person's the complexity, the distress, the trauma in their lives, that's the thing that has made the difference for me. And that kind of deep listening is not easy for us as humans. I mean we talk about it all the time. It's almost as if and I'm not sure we always do it that well with our clients, we're trying to, but it's a real struggle to really absorb the difficulties that someone else has had.

Mick Cooper: 47:19

And we need to feel safe to be able to do that.

John Wilson: 47:23

Yeah.

Mick Cooper: 47:24

You described the kind of connection between feeling safe and being able to empathize, being able to kind of realize that pro-social tendency within us. There's a connection between the kind of just the very physical safety of not having problems dropping around us, having enough food, somewhere to live, and then the psychological possibilities and I guess there's a kind of there's vicious cycles and there's virtuous cycles that you know, with more safety comes more possibility, very empathy and the willingness to create more safety for the other. But as we've seen, it can also spiral in the other direction. John, I wanted to ask you one last question, coming from all the very rich and kind of really powerful things you described. What's your vision for how the world would be? What kind of world based on your experiences, based on your therapy work that you've done, would you ideally like to see?

John Wilson: 48:27

This is a big question too, isn't it? Yeah, like a world where I'm able to really hold the other person in mind, like where I really have a sense of is this going to be unhelpful, even harmful, for the other person? And I think if all of us were able to do that around the globe, like, there would be a lot of things we wouldn't be doing, and I think there's a lot of things we would do for each other. And so I think that's the bit that I think would make the difference that it is the empathy that would then begin to change the structures. You know, we're needing something beyond capitalism that we've got right now. Our politics isn't working very well for us you know in all parts of the world.

John Wilson: 49:34

But I think if we change our capacity to really know the other person and I think well, probably because how much I enjoy technology, like I think that's it's not helping us very well just now, but like our capacity to communicate with each other through technology has created a much smaller world than I grew up in, and I think, even though that it's very problematic right now, I think that gives us the potential to feel like we're a family because we can all be in contact with each other and that like that's. I mean, I grew up in central Scotland where it's almost like you needed a passport to move between the villages. You know it's like in that half decade things have transformed completely because we didn't know people outside of those spaces and that. And so I have a hopefulness around what the technology can do for us, not for the technology, but for how I can know someone else. And what's been important for me is thinking like maybe we just get to pass something onto the next generation, maybe we don't get to see that difference, and I think that's been really important for me.

John Wilson: 51:01

I think of the work of Rogers. I've got to work with people that he worked with. Maybe all that we're doing is like passing that candle along, in a way, making sure that it doesn't burn out, and maybe my children or their children's children will really see the benefit of that. And I think that's a hard place to hold, because I want to be in a world where nobody's at risk but we. But I think we have to keep putting our energy in, even if it's going to take a long time.

Mick Cooper: 51:37

And, yeah, sorry, that's not. Yeah, that's why.

John Wilson: 51:45

I think Thanks.

Mick Cooper: 51:47

John, thank you for sharing so much, so much value and richness, and that really appreciate it.

John Wilson: 51:56

Thank you for the opportunity, mick, thank you.