Claudia Turbet-Delof: From Poverty and Racism to Counsellor & Councillor

Walk the journey of an inspiring human rights advocate who hails from Latin America. Claudia is a rare combination of both counsellor and councillor: a fierce believer in the power of socialism and person-centred therapy. From her childhood marked by poverty, racism, and intergenerational trauma to her work as a counsellor, Claudia’s experiences are insightful and compelling, and her belief in mental health as a fundamental human right.

Mick Cooper and John Wilson's conversation with Claudia navigates through her life in the UK, her work with Hackney Council, and her role in the Words Matter campaign. Claudia’s work centres around bringing issues of social injustice, poverty, and race into her practice in the most compassionate way. We delve deep into the intersection of politics and therapy and how the role of therapists can extend into the political sphere. As we explore the effects of social inequalities on mental health, we also underscore the importance of holding the government accountable for the mental health of its citizens.

Towards the end of our discussion, Claudia shares her unique vision of making supervision available for all professions. This episode is a profound exploration of the powerful connection between social injustice and mental health. Claudia's journey from a migrant to a counsellor to a councillor, her understanding of the intersectionality in therapy and politics, and her dream to make a difference in the world is a testament to courage and resilience.

This Podcast is sponsored by Onlinevents 

Transcript

Mick: 0:00

Claudia, it's absolutely fantastic to have you here, A counselor and a counselor. I can't believe that a counselor and a counselor there can't be many of those about. Tell us how you got to be a counselor and a counselor and tell us a bit of your story.

Claudia: 0:18

It's kind of the perfect combination. It's an counselor and a counselor. Actually, let me just say maybe quickly, when we were campaigning before we got elected, my colleague knocked on someone's door and the person said you know what, I don't need a counselor.

Claudia: 0:39

I need a counselor to help me. My colleague said oh, I got the right. It's like Claudia, please come and speak to this resident Meep, paul. It was so interesting. It's such a pleasure to be here today, meep and John and everyone here. I listened to the first podcast. It sounds so amazing, so I'm so pleased to be here.

Mick: 1:02

And of course.

Claudia: 1:03

I've followed you for years, but we can get into that maybe I'm sure it will come up. I'm sure it will come up Now. How did I get to be counselor and counselor, and a bit about me. Maybe I'll start with a bit about me. So then it makes sense that there will be a nice transition there.

Claudia: 1:19

So I'm a self-Latin American, boliviana, you know, from South America, a migrant woman, very proud, proud migrant woman in the UK. I came 20 years ago and I left with about. I emigrated when there was a big recession in Latin America and we were close to 1.3 million people that left Latin America in the space of seven, eight years. Well, sorry, bolivia, because in Latin America it seems that in the space of 10 years, 17 million people left Latin America. Wow, and this was because we had, you know, I left a developing war at the time. I was marked three times, two times were armed. So it's pretty traumatic, pretty aggressive, pretty violent. But previous to that I had a really difficult childhood as a young person. So I think you know it will become clear how my work with young people identity, race, community has been very important because of my own background. And yeah, it's very difficult childhood, a lot of poverty, a lot of poverty, a lot of food. Poverty especially, is something that's very close to my heart. You know, being able to eat I had. I shoplifted for many years as a young person For food, never hurting anyone with my family, especially my mother. So I was taught you know how to do things, but then stopped my teenage years. So poverty, socioeconomic circumstances have been really close to my heart because I saw firsthand how this impacted home, how the absolute adverse poverty, social injustice really affected my family.

Claudia: 3:19

I'm a mixed-race woman. My great-granddad left Barbados, kind of escaping. He wasn't. Although slavery was abolished by then, there were still remands, you know, of slavery. So he was sort of working in the fields, in sugar canes and all of that sugar cane fields, cotton fields and so on, and then he left. So he came to Bolivia and that's how we have a mixed-race family, very few black people in Bolivia.

Claudia: 3:47

At the time my grandmother became destitute because her then husband left her. You know it's like a white man living a black woman and then a lot of racism that we experienced. So it is a lot of intergenerational trauma in terms of race identity, very aware of us being black family, but never saying that we're black ever, absolutely ever. And I actually didn't know that we, our background, was Caribbean, black, black, african Caribbean, ever. But my mom had an aphrodite in her head but I just didn't know. And my grandma, you know, picture of my grandma like a black, beautiful woman. I never knew what was black because we didn't say and. But we experienced a lot of racism. So my grandma was called Beanbag, my mother was called a Beanbag. We were told horrible things. So I grew up in that environment where it is, you know, racist, racist remarks. You're told that you're not worth, and that kind of led me to be very aware of community and the bit that I think from me. I really wanted to share this and I don't want to forget the thing that really I think has kind of shaped my life is lack of money and being at very, very, very, very close to being destitute, very, very close from being homeless, and when I was a child my family couldn't pay for the bills, my water bills. This is time from Bolivia, and in Bolivia we were very neoliberal for many years, for, you know, decades, and then we became socialists and a process of decolonization, a beautiful process that we're living for the past 20 years, but previous to that, when we couldn't pay for the bills and this, I think this really has shaped, and it still shapes, all of my work, all of my work.

Claudia: 5:45

I was a child, maybe seven, eight years old, and the people you could say the bailiffs would come and cut the water. And as a child, I went to my mother because I outspoken, and always, you know, very loud, so I was in charge of distracting the man that came to cut the supply of water to distract him, so then that my mother would run behind us and just fill that bucket of water for her to have until she's able to pay for water again, and I would be speaking to him and I would try to say come on, man, you know, we really don't have to wait for us today. Give us 10 hours, give us. And I became very good at that because we would do it often.

Claudia: 6:32

So the water, electricity, a lot of bills, and I just remember being, you know, from that young age, having to be part of that sort of socioeconomic issues that we had in the family. I mean, and I remember never saw my mom's face because I was always trying to don't cut the, don't cut the. You know please wait one second and then what she was doing. That so very, very impactful memories and I think they don't leave me and that makes me very passionate about the work with young people and that's how I started my counseling work.

Mick: 7:01

So is that how you? So? You came over to the cloud. You came over to the UK, did you say 18 years ago? 20, 20 years ago I was 23 years old yeah. And then how did you get into doing a person-centered counseling training?

Claudia: 7:16

So well, it was actually quite fast. I mean, my migration story is fairly successful compared to many, many stories. In my case, I wanted to go to uni and I couldn't because, again, you know, girls stay at home. So it was we had all these issues at home and I couldn't go to uni. But what I did is I studied English. So when I came to the UK I was independent already in Bolivia when I left Bolivia and my issue was I kind of study anywhere? So I wanted, you know, I want a career but I couldn't. And so I came because we were too poor to even go to state university. Even though I got my place in uni, I couldn't because we were very, very poor.

Claudia: 7:58

So when I came to UK, essentially I spoke English. So I very quickly I was cleaning. You know, I had like five jobs working. The most I worked, I think it was 108 hours a week saying hours, you know, trying to make money, send money for my son and so on.

Claudia: 8:15

But very quickly I go into community work because because I was a migrant woman or I am still I am, of course, but because I was from a country that you don't easily get, your residence you don't easily get. It's kind of like second class migrants in a way. I couldn't open a bank account, I couldn't access a GP service. I almost become an outcome I was four days away from being undocumented, anyway. So all of that taught me the community service in the UK and that's how I started Whoa this is, you know.

Claudia: 8:51

I went and received like, for example, doctors of the world, for example, we ran sessions for migrant communities. We didn't have a GP session, but you could still get reproductive you know, sexual reproductive products and so on, or healthcare checkups. And that's how I found out about, oh, there is community work. And then it's when I got started working with migrant Latin American women. And then I thought you know what? This is what I want to do. I want to work with the community. And then I went to be a youth worker and I trained as a youth worker, but not like with a degree, but just trained enough to run a youth club. And then it's when I came across, you know, supporting young people in the schools. So we're at risk of exclusions. And just by offering these five, six sessions that we did, I thought, if this is life changing for young people, I wonder what mental health could do, and that's how it became. I started training.

Mick: 9:46

So you went and did a person-centered counseling training. How was that for you?

Claudia: 9:51

Well, I think, the best and the most scariest experience ever. I think I had the best teacher, mike. I had the best I am. You know it was hard, but it's the best training. I will do it all over again. It's the best thing of life. I am so happy. It changed my life. It's what I needed, it was right and fit for me and I believe so much in it. Yeah, the best.

Mick: 10:25

How did you see the person-centered training or counseling more generally, sitting with what you'd experienced in the poverty and all those challenges? Did it kind of sit alongside it? Was it a shared understanding? Did it feel something very different?

Claudia: 10:41

I think. Well, I didn't. I actually didn't know in detail what person-centered was meant to be, in full depth, right. So I had an understanding from seeing all the modules sorry, all the approaches, and I thought this really fits this calls me the most and how it was a great surprise that it was so humanistic, so centered in the person, giving that congruence, really paying attention to the humanity of people. That for me, was key and that really, as you say, rocked my boat and I thought this is what needs to happen all over the world. We need to be able to accept ourselves so then we can accept others.

Claudia: 11:33

It's that process and I had for me. I feel that I mean, of course, I haven't trained in other places, but for me I had the best duties I could have asked for, broke me into pieces. Community work was tough, the tears, the pain, the stretch, but I thought this is exactly what I think I needed. But also I helped me to challenge myself on what we need, I think First, only what I feel we need in society. So it's a great approach absolutely.

Mick: 12:05

DJ, when you were doing a person-centered training, had you been developing political beliefs and did you see yourself as progressive already at that point?

Claudia: 12:15

100%. So thank you, I love that question actually Thanks me. I really really love that Because when I was a child saying earlier that I had a very difficult childhood there was all forms of stuff happening emotional, physical, especially physical, the beatings and all of that sexual abuse. There was loads happening in my childhood until very early 20s, well before I came from Bolivia. But I became highly politically engaged at the age of 11.

Claudia: 12:50

And that's a very specific moment for me because essentially, socialism in Bolivia is kind of reborn again and I remember feeling that in all the upset that was happening at home and the chaos and everything that was really painful, the news always encouraged me. So I followed the work of the socialist movement, seeing how, for example, when the government increased I don't know the cost of potatoes, the cost of. I'll never forget this. This is how the cost of bread was the first campaign that I saw, how indigenous people moved and walked kilometers and kilometers complaining to the state of the government, saying you cannot increase the price of bread, and they won and they stopped it and that was extremely that it almost became my go-to place whenever I fell down, because there was this belief that it actually can improve, it can be better, and I've been following our socialist movements since then, since the age of 11, basically.

Mick: 13:53

So there was something about socialism that gave you a sense of hope within that personal context and all the kind of personal challenges, but seeing kind of socialist action made you feel that there was some optimism.

Claudia: 14:07

Yes, absolutely. And also what was coupled with that and, mika, I think that's where my training with Person Center was so key is that in Bolivia, 70% of 70, 75% of the people are indigenous and we are a mix of many races. So in the past, you know, fascism unfortunately is still a big problem in Bolivia and a lot of countries in Latin America. So myself, coming from Black, african, caribbean, brazilian, argentinian, I'm a mix of a lot of nations. We were at the end of receiving racist remarks all the time. And when I see indigenous people that actually have the power and I listened to, that was life changing for me to see, oh, you can, you can do this, and it doesn't matter what color you are, because I was used to. You know, only the rich can, only you know the creme de la creme in my city can access health, education et cetera, and that was life changing for me.

Mick: 15:11

So was there something about socialism being aligned with the person centered, in that both of them really validated the person? You saw some connection between the two.

Claudia: 15:23

Yes, I think I couldn't put it in a better way. Exactly that, I think, for me, the acceptance that this is who I am, the acceptance that this is how we look in my home, for example. I just give you an example of how we you know my family now. As an adult, I see we didn't want to be Black because immense racist abuse and so on.

Claudia: 15:51

And for example, my mother would never allow me to have my hair down, ever. So I only let my hair down here when the UK because they said oh well, when you put your head down, you know your mouth looks a bit bigger and it's a bit Black. You know, it's a really deep, deep trauma because it meant that I would be probably abused on the streets or whatever. So in a way, protecting me was let's not be that. And now, when the indigenous movement came and Bolivia is very well known for our social revolution about, you know, the indigenous people being now finally in government is that that was very powerful for me.

Claudia: 16:27

And when I came to UK and I was training as the person center approach, my tutor, you know, really focused on the transcultural aspect, our identity, race. You know who we are, what we. I remember thinking, I remember those beautiful training sessions where you go, what do we represent? The moment we were came to a room, what do you represent with that amount of hair, with your color, with your smile, with your teeth, with your big mouth or whatever big lips? What do you represent and how people accept you or reject you or react to you? That was really powerful.

Mick: 17:04

And what did you learn from that in terms of thinking about how people react or respond to you?

Claudia: 17:12

And that we all have our reasons for our behavior. That's been a thing, something really important for me and what I also try to kind of convey. In therapy, my therapeutic work, on what leads my practice, we are all valid.

Mick: 17:32

We're all valid.

Claudia: 17:34

We're all valid.

Mick: 17:34

We're all valid. Sorry I was just gonna say we're all valid. And I think what you're describing is that that was a message that came through both from socialism and the socialism of Bolivia and the indigenous people, that there was a real validity to those people's lives, not just the rich people, but also in the person-centered field. There was that unconditional acceptance which was about we're all valid. And you described so beautifully, claudia, the kind of commonalities, the resonances between those two worldviews.

Claudia: 18:09

When the socialist government came in after I left. I left in 2003 and then it came into government the next year and it's really the first time in my family that we say that we're black, because there is a change. There's a social change, there's a recognition of the peoples, with 36 nations, with 36 languages, and there is a shift that actually we all look different. We have different cultures, we have different backgrounds. Latin America is a mix of many colonies that came for our natural resources and so on, so we look different. So that was very, very powerful that we are all, we all matter, we all validate. Our experiences make us who we are and they are valid as well.

Mick: 18:59

What you're describing is such a close interweaving between the political and the psychological that they really intertwine, don't they, in the way that you're describing your life and how they really move together, and that self-acceptance comes from both of those directions.

Claudia: 19:17

There was a moment Mika actually also was a very life-changing moment for me in the person-centered training, a set-up and approach training, we did this social pyramid where are we in that social pyramid? And I remember that they told me you are a, you are a migrant woman. So then all of us had a role and there was a woman that was a queen, right? So then where do you think you are in the pyramid of society? And I remember, as a migrant woman, I put myself kind of in the middle and the queen, who was a black woman, a colleague she had, you know, she had the car said you are the queen. And then she went at the back, as a black woman and as a migrant woman, I went in the middle and a lot of us went in different places.

Claudia: 20:07

I remember my teacher, who was being ruthless but she's been great. I recollect, you know we had many clashes but she's the best that could have happened to me. She looked at me and she I'll never forget me. She kind of laughed at me and say you think you're in the middle, you think you're in the middle of society. Yeah, she just laughed and that was life changing. I thought, wow, of course I'm not, of course. I'm way below, of course. This is where I am. This is, you know, as a brown migrant woman, especially from Latin America. You know my background, of course I'm at the back, of course, and looking at you know the my colleague who had the car of the queen, and she's a black woman, she's used to perhaps being at the back, but then she said you're the queen, you're the front and very, very powerful experiences.

Mick: 20:57

Yeah, but how was it to really sit with that and to recognize that actually you are socially with everything that you kind of brought at the back?

Claudia: 21:09

Very powerful. I love it and I do this a lot in sessions where there is you know. I recommend you know, let's have a look at where we are, because we represent something in me. I mean, we know, you know we walk into a room, we know what we represent. My accent represents something. My skin color, my background, my studies, how I speak, how loud I am, and people react to that. And I think it's very powerful to understand what we represent for all this, but also to understand what all this represent to us, because it's not just one way. You know that is, we also have our biases. We also start judging people. We have our judgments, no matter how much we train as therapists, but also in humanity. So that was very powerful, yeah.

Mick: 21:53

It sounds like in your training there was a real focus, as you said earlier, on cultural issues, and I guess that's not the same across all trainings. Often I hear from black or marginalized students who are saying that actually those issues weren't talked about at all during their counseling training.

Claudia: 22:09

Powers was key, it was at the foundation. So it's a transcultural approach in the person-certed training. So that was day in and day out and that's what I was saying earlier today. For me, what's the best thing could have happened to me, because it really stretched me in so many ways and I know that's the feedback I get as well from the people that I work with about you know how important race, you know your identity, who you are, what inspires you, what moves you. We go through these incisions. Of course, you know in people's faces and it's up to them. But the feel that that is where it gets so important on our work, on our psychological work, on our therapeutic work, how we allow that to happen in a therapeutic room and in a cost-effective society.

Mick: 22:58

So do you think, as counselors, it's important for us to bring in cultural issues or to be responsive to them, and how do we work with that in the room?

Claudia: 23:10

Well, I feel that we're affected every day by society, so how not to bring it to the room right? I mean, it's interesting because when I so I am I've been extremely lucky to open a community project that offers free therapy for the community. I feel very passionate about that because I myself was depressed for many years and when I received support free support and constant that really helped me come out of my depression, and so I feel very passionate about even free. I've been a big campaigner for free therapy for many years now, and so I opened the project and there is a cafe upstairs where the coffee costs four pounds and a sandwich a pound fifty. It's quite a lot of money and I'm very aware of the cost, and it's a wonderful cafe, it's a brilliant place and, of course, there are people that can afford that, but there are people that cannot. So even that moment when I go and collect it or we go and I say, oh, you just go. Oh, my coffee four pounds, ooh, let's talk about that. You know what does it mean being able to pay or not being able to pay and bring your bottle of water because you can afford the cafe at the upstairs?

Claudia: 24:25

Those are things that affect us daily and I don't think, and for everyone listening, this is the hope that we finally come to acknowledge that daily society affects our mental health and governments have to be responsible with everything they do because they is affecting, which is enduring year in and year out, on everything that is just dropped on us as a society. I think I'm very passionate about that. So I think that is the big work. Yes, you know, we have to be able to talk about what's happening in society because it's affecting. We're not making it up. You know this is society. Society is causing a lot of our stress, a lot of our, a lot of our traumas, a lot of our. You know these associations, the attachments, so many things. I mean, the list is long, but I feel very passionate about that.

Mick: 25:17

But what you're saying is that what happens in therapy mental health is political. When people say things like, oh, you can't make, you know you shouldn't make therapy political, it sounds like what you're saying is that there's a fundamental political element that impacts people, as you described in your own life, that you can't ignore.

Claudia: 25:36

Tell you absolutely, absolutely. And I think what I have loved, absolutely loved about therapy work is that in my case, I've been lucky enough to work with a number of organizations and one of them is an organization where young people well, unfortunately, young people are either victims or they're lost and want to gang violence. Because I'm a former youth worker, young people are really at the heart of everything that I do. It's my biggest inspiration, perhaps because I'm healing is still for my own childhood and when I had a case with someone, of course you know we kind of shared stuff. But just to very briefly kind of mention a few points you know to have parents that come in where their child maybe lost, sold cannabis. It's a black child, the friend is a white child, also sold cannabis, but the white child gets community work and the black child gets deported.

Claudia: 26:41

And we use therapy. Where she is able, the mother is able to take this and it openly talk about how society and the fairness of the state is. You know racist, racist government or racist policies affecting this family and in therapy find that voice and actually, yes, you know what it means to be a black woman or a single black mother and how you're going to defend your child, you know, in court and actually therapy supporting that process, and the child wasn't deported, which is fantastic. But you know, these are where where, if you don't have therapeutic space that you can freely talk about what society is affecting you, do you know? How can we? How can we begin to heal? Where do we begin to heal? Where do we go if we don't have these spaces?

Mick: 27:37

How can we begin to heal if we can't talk about the ways that society has affected us, including the economic and the social structures and the political structures. Claudia, you're so inspirational. Tell us about the Labour Party, and have you always been a member, or where does that come into your story?

Claudia: 27:57

Well, so I've been, as you can see. I've been, you've heard, I've been highly engaged in politics but I never like registered to a party because in Bolivia, you know, we don't have money to go with. You know, this is not, this is not how it works. We, literally we're very good at going on the streets, we strike a lot, so that's our specialty. So when I came to the UK, I joined the Labour Party. Maybe nearly it's going to be eight years officially, but I've been, you know, highly engaged in politics and but I've been doing community work for a long, long, long time since I arrived to the UK, really, and my MP met me once when I was running a project where we gave, you know, we because I loved running, distance running and I created a project we got funding from the council at the time and I was project manager and she gave me an interview and she was really impressed and she was like, oh, you should think about maybe getting to, you know, being a counsellor. And it's the first time I heard that. That was many years ago and a year later and I thought actually I could do this because I joined the women's there's a women's charity I joined as a helping with finance.

Claudia: 29:16

Again, poverty, you know, for me very important that people can come out of, you know, poverty. And then I go inspire to do more work and more volunteering and started training. I was a therapist, then I was in a board vice chair and what I noticed this is interesting because as I was working my way up in sort of issues with the community, I noticed a trend and in that trend I noticed that workers' rights is an issue and we have. There was this lady that came and we gained another life changing moment. She came in and she said you know, she showed us her payslip. She doesn't speak English, latin America, latin America and she's been working with her boss for I don't know, cleaning in the house for many years and it shows us this payslip that actually payslip is fake. So she's been working there for 13 years but actually there's been no contribution to her pension and many cases like this and just that face that you don't forget and that has kind of inspired me to think okay, what's the next thing? What do we need to tackle workers' rights?

Claudia: 30:28

Then I went to trade union. I've been in trade union for many years and then in the trade union I saw the same problem. I started to see the pattern. The pattern is, you know, unregulated work spaces, abuses in the workplaces, and I thought I need to do political work. What we need to change is the policies. We can tackle one employer, but if the employer is unregulated, well, we need to go to a higher level. And that's how I decided to be, to start thinking about a council and the Labour Party and join the Labour Party, and that's kind of what it came about.

Mick: 31:04

And so when did you stand, and was it the first time you stood, that you got elected, or a few times?

Claudia: 31:09

Yes, yeah, you know, it was actually that big smile, as you can see, because I didn't realize that my work has been noticed in the community, because I've been working in different parts and I'm very public, I love speaking, I love media. So I was very pleased that when I stood, basically the words in the borrow have to sort of say we would like you know this person as candidate, we're in a pool already, that we've been sort of a preapproved, and then we go. So it's a long process, it's not that it's, and you have to show that you're really engaged. And unfortunately, in my case, I have a long, you know long CV of community work and out of 13 words, or 14 words, 11 said that they wanted to and that for me, that for me, meant a lot, not because all the one, claudia, which is the one, you know, the one, a migrant Socialist woman with the background that I had, it gets me is is it what I was? That meant the world, that really I thought we are an incredible borrow.

Claudia: 32:24

I love my borrow hackney. I think it's a phenomenal borrow, borrow that gave me a home. Welcome my family, welcome my child. When you know, we were threatened to be deported a few times. So and help me when I couldn't access a GP, when I couldn't access education, when I couldn't access so many things. You know, the borrow really the community working the world was the world to me. So, yes, so that that that was very special.

Claudia: 32:47

And that was about a year and a half ago then that you know that was in 2021, I think of 2020, so it's a lot, is a bit of a time. And then we went on election and then I was, so I actually I was in a very fortunate position where I could sort of decide where I wanted to stand and I always, always, always loved Victoria. Because Victoria work, because that's where I leave the first time I came to the hackney and that's where I learned about community work, so that all of that start in Victoria. So I have a special is in my heart. Victoria, you know, welcome my kids, welcome me, you know. And I fell held by my community and when I was about to be deported one time and I needed to apply for, you know, for visa I didn't have the money because home office is so expensive my community gather and put, you know, 100 pounds, 200. So, yeah, you can see, I love, I love.

Mick: 33:40

I can really hear it cloud, and that's amazing because what you again, you're kind of weaving that personal life experience With that political involvement and you're taking your personal life experience and you're kind of giving it back to the community and actually taking a leadership role In the community, which is amazing. And I wanted to ask you, because you've been doing work on the emotional mental health as a human right for all and also had in mental health week, which is really fantastic Well, tell us about the mental health as a human right for all.

Claudia: 34:09

It's about time, isn't it?

Mick: 34:14

It is.

Claudia: 34:15

I mean, one of the things that inspired me the most is Is political conflict. That's that's the number one thing that is by me for this motion, and I'll tell you why. In Latin America we have a lot of natural resources, so we are used to coups Wars. I mean, I left Bolivia because of crime that you know that was like spreading. You know there was a developing war when about the gas? So basically that's when we naturalized the gas.

Claudia: 34:54

And Something that stay always with me, since a child, is the constant, brutal, absolutely brutal political conflicts Imposed in Latin America. I didn't know the rest of it. I mean I haven't traveled to other countries at the time, but I had known my city and not my country, and I knew that it was they in and they out. And I tell you something that, for me, also marked me forever and it goes why why we have this with motion when I was around in my late teens, there was a big campaign from a young age. It was a big campaign when they came and approached poor people, especially poor women or women in poverty sorry, women in poverty to ask them not to have more children and then kind of pay them to, you know, to to to stop them being fertile, like I can't find the word now, but these, these were programs aimed at supporting women and communities to end poverty cycles by making them infertile. And I remember saying no, no, no, no, no for me, and I was a young woman. So one of the things that I noticed in seeing age is how we endure injustice because they weren't speaking to other people. And that has been at the back of of this motion that I've seen so much pain, so much hurt in Women, men, children, young people, I mean. And we know what's happening now, you know in gas and son, and you know the hostages is horrendous.

Claudia: 36:32

So the, the, the motion really inspired me that, because I feel that as a society we continue to endure Pain, of the pain, and no one protects our mental health. There is a law. You know we need our fundamental human rights if we can go and get around it. You know the mental health, as you know, the mental health hasn't been Reformed. You know there are no changes.

Claudia: 36:54

So I don't think, at the end of the day, I don't think that there is anything that protects our mental health. There's nothing you can just suffer, just think. Think about, for example, repairs in your house, in housing, how many people leave breathing toxic, toxic air in their house because it's not repaired and that meant to have that impact on the mental health? No one caters for that, no one is responsible for that. So those have been the things that have inspired me to say enough, because people suffer. I mean, there are people that you know, we even hear in therapy. You know people that start self-harming because they absolute just you know they're desperate because they cut. No one hears them. You know they can be waiting forever to get that Molds repair. The children is being affected. We know children that stop talking because of the mode that it breathing and when is the justice for that? So I think that's for mental health, for me.

Mick: 37:51

So what does the motion that the Hattie council passed for? Mental health is a human right for all what. What does that say?

Claudia: 38:00

Yes, of course, so that I mean we don't have the mandate to, to call and make a human right, because that has to come from United Nations. So this is going to be a long journey. But what it has given us is the we have sort of the mandate now to, so it can pay me and make an international agenda. So Hattie council has decided to push for this to become a fundamental human rights. So this is now a permanent campaign that we have now. Within that there are all the commitments that we have Local, locally, which we can do and deliver. So things you know like it's mental health support in every school, mental health support, you know, accessible for people, you know, in different languages and communities, main communities or global majorities. So those things are local level that we can do, and I'm very proud to say that Hattie is brilliant at that. But in that extra as to we need to address our mental health and respect our mental health as our human right.

Claudia: 38:59

And maybe just a quick thing on that, sorry, because I know also I don't know if you're running out of time, but I'm loving the speaking here. Thank you me. We might, I feel like, invite me again. I'll be very happy to be invited again. The last bit on this is that we are launching a campaign on the 25th of November called words matter, and this is with children and young people's organizations. Where we have Gathered and this is something that might be happening across boroughs and probably across the country there is an element of Harsh languages, hard harsh words, being set at academies or schools across the country to children, young people. The biggest impact that we're hearing on behavior policies, for example, exclusions, the tensions that being quite harsh on young people.

Claudia: 39:56

And how perhaps they're being spoken to a school. So this is that campaign. It's not an attack on schools. It's not an attack on teachers, because teachers are doing a fantastic, fantastic work, but also the profession that live in the profession the most, the fastest. You know they are because they're under huge pressure. But there is, there has to be a balance of where our children, young people, go to school and feeling this is a sanctuary space, it's the safest place. You're not gonna be tall or you stupid, you know. You know giving a detention for, like my son two weeks ago, he cracked his neck, made a noise and he got 30 minutes attention. You can't this. This has a team. You know he has a tremendous impact on young people. So this is also part of a campaign and emotion.

Mick: 40:40

So that's part of the mental health is a human right is also focusing on schools as a kind of basis for good mental health and Helping young people and kids to develop kind of emotional literacy and awareness.

Claudia: 40:53

Well, yes, it's a spiraling mental health week, which is on the 24th of November to the first of December, and Essentially what we want to do is just to bring awareness of the power of words that can have. You know, another topic which I'm sure you know, many will relate to this, but I also feel very passionate about Perhaps it goes to the own punishment that I received as a child is the punitive, punitive society that we live in and how punitive it can be from people and that how that impacts on mental health. And, again, that goes the political system with, you know, the state with, without therapeutic and mental health or well-being. So the idea we hope is that this brings about conversations about, you know, are we being, are we speaking to our children or young people and each other? How should we are we carry?

Claudia: 41:44

And this is this goes deeper you know why do we have these languages? Why do we have policing? You know police officers in the schools? Well, why are we, you know, being harsh on kids? Why? You know what stresses are happening at home? Well, you know, it's quite it, but we hope that there are. There are five videos that have been recorded with examples so you know what might happen at school and we hope that this is an educational tool. And again, it's not gonna tag, it's a way of let's talk about this.

Mick: 42:16

So this is partly sorry I got it wrong. This is part of the Hackney mental health week, and do you want to tell us a little bit more about that? That's an amazing initiative.

Claudia: 42:24

So thank you, um, when the whole body sweet, it's not sort of like a week of training or we're gonna. You know, let's do this. This could be good. This is this is really bringing light to the social injustices and how impacts our, our lives. We're starting with this session on housing. So you know we have a housing crisis. You know very little social housing. You know there's been policies that really have left people, you know, at risk of the situation or the leaf. You know people homeless. Completely opposite to is that there has been said this week about being a lifestyle choice, right, which is absolutely Disrespectful and completely detached from the reality people.

Claudia: 43:09

So we start in the social housing, then we go the impact of, you know, a mental health and children and young people, which we know there's a long waiting list and this is affecting a lot of young people. We're also talking about food poverty and how it affects mental health. And then we're also going to have a session for, actually for the migrant community, latin American community speaking in Spanish, we're gonna have a session on talking what these issues are and how it's affecting our mental health. But essentially the event is let's bring light to the social injustices that we live daily and how it affects our mental health. So then we can take steps and we can openly talk about and give a thing acknowledgement that Social injustices affect our mental health.

Claudia: 43:52

We don't make it up you know I've seen some is that the strategies from, like the national government has said, the most mental health challenges are inherited and you know we need to challenge that. You know you can't say, you can't tell me that being worried about paying my rent, my mortgage or whatever it is, if I'm gonna be destitute, of course it's gonna affect my mental health and we need to. We need to make as well, you know we need to bring that accountability, so then that there will be sufficient budgeting, so then we can get the support that we need.

Mick: 44:25

So the the kind of mental health Kind of as a human right is very linked into social injustice, isn't it? And challenging social justice it's a kind of endpoint of it, almost is that we can create a world in which everyone can have Friving good mental health and as a right, not just something which is which is kind of a luxury, but is an absolute right.

Claudia: 44:48

Because it doesn't have parity esteem. Yet you know, if we have someone I mean we had we have many cases. For example, take debt. You know how many people have unfortunately taking the lives because of huge debts that they have incurred Justice alive, why have we got to that place? Why is it that that meant that the mental health of that person wasn't protected? Why have we not prior to, why have we not prioritized supporting that as supposed to continue, as supposed to continue to send threatening letters at that at some point and this is, this is again power of that mental health motion at some point we have to be responsible for, for example, if we could, if you're going to ask for that debt to be paid back, be responsible in that way that is not stressing people to the point that is threatening and people take their lives. I'm fortunate and I'm saying this respectfully and with with a heavy heart. But what I'm saying? Because it has affected a lot of people, I'm sorry if it's triggering, but why do we get to that place?

Mick: 45:49

But what you're saying is for politics, policies, practices, to have a mental health and well-being Sensitivity, to understand some of these issues in a way that they can then protect people's mental health. Claudia, what do you, what would you advise or what would be used? I know your person sent a counselor so you can't advise anyone but for Counselors, therapists out there who really do Agree with you or believe that social injustices can play a really fundamental part in in in mental health, in their clients mental health. Your journey has been to get involved in politics as a counselor. How do you think other people can or should Get involved and do something on that wider social political level?

Claudia: 46:34

to get involved and, oh, do do that in both?

Mick: 46:41

The answer is yes yes, what do you think?

Claudia: 46:44

they should do. I was gonna say, sister Pueble, you know, I think, I think we, I mean we can have a choice, isn't it? We can choose to. And I was thinking this today I mean, if I was just a therapist, working just therapy, you know, with my clients, and If I was to work full-time and you know, maybe I don't know Cheshire, I don't know I could Choose to ignore society. You can, and you know, I think to a level we had to respect, whether people get how engage people get with what's going on, you know, because also that's we have to look after ourselves, right.

Claudia: 47:22

But I will say that, and I find the challenging the question, because there's so much to say, but I will just say, yeah, getting involved and maybe welcome, welcome the fact that maybe Maybe it is political, maybe Maybe we need to start rethinking. Is speaking about my rights Political? And if so, do I embrace it Right? Do I embrace in the therapy room? Do I embrace in my day-to-day? Because we have for a long time, and I've been in situations where it says, you know what is, where people say this is not political, but I'm thinking the mere fact that you raised your hand to say that it's not political. It's political because you're making your stance, or what you believe and your values, and we have to because otherwise the state, if we don't, you know, if you don't, if we don't have a stance, it's you know, they can step on it over us and in which, is you know, we don't have a voice. So, yeah, do to getting work.

Mick: 48:24

Brilliant cloudy. We're just coming towards the end. I just wanted to ask you a question, asking that the other way round which is like what do you think the world of politics, and maybe even the Labour Party, could learn from the therapy, from the person-sensitive world? Is there something that we as councillors can bring into the political Space to help improve it, to help things kind of function in a different way? Do you think there's anything we have to contribute?

Claudia: 48:52

I think there are two things actually and I'm very happy. I thank you for your question because I do want to share very briefly One point. So when I came to when I became councillor, I realized, and I was quite shocked, that it happens in a lot of sectors that there isn't a supervision kind of method, which we have a therapist and I feel and I would love for us to join forces for you too, because you're so respected and loved around and I know that you can get to so many channels, but I would love for us, as therapists, to convey the message that supervision is important in every sector and every profession. I was shocked, and I'm still shocked, that this is not happening for counselors, because counselors, in a way, we deal. In a way I feel that we deal with the worst cases of societies, injustices. We support and representing people that are really experiencing a lot of horrendous cases where they don't get support because of the continuing government cuts and so on and so on. So I don't know, I haven't seen how, you know, counselors don't get that support to deal with emotional impact in has of them and it's tough because we do this day in and day out. So I'm working with an organization where they have liked that proposal about. You know, let's think about this for counselors. But I think it should be in every profession. Every profession should have you know what we have, which you know it's incredible, it's really, how could we survive without supervision, mick? That should be everywhere.

Claudia: 50:36

And the labor party, which you know I absolutely love the labor party and of course it has some challenges and challenging moments because we have people with different views. But again, as I started today, you know, this wonderful session, let's accept each other for who we are because, like I can see myself to be on the left side of, say, politics, and there is a reason why I'm there. And you've heard, not my story or paramount story. You know I shoplifted, I had huge food poverty. You know I will fight for the poorest, absolutely will do that, and it's not because I'm against any other policies but that's because that's my experience.

Claudia: 51:14

And I think the party has to acknowledge all of us, that all of us make this wonderful community and all of us are valid. And that has been a criticism. You know that. You know left guns to the law, so or left this or the having kind of witch-handed, and I haven't had that experience myself. I think I'm quite respected in my work and I respect my colleagues, centre-right or whatever because we have our valid experiences made and I think that will be in any party, not just the Labour Party. Accept our experiences because they are valid.

Mick: 51:45

So something about acceptance is a way of relating within politics as well, rather than criticism and kind of attacking each other.

Claudia: 51:55

Absolutely, because you know the experiences I have about poverty that my colleague that perhaps is more middle-class, you know didn't have the experience. We complement each other and that means that we're going to fight hard and we're going to fight really well for all angles of society. But imagine if I was kicked out of the party, say because I'm a lefty right. Then the party misses out on my rich experience and first-hand experience of what it's like to fight from those spaces. So complementing each other, coexistence of people, I think that's the key.

Mick: 52:33

Fantastic Cladding. My very, very last question, because I know you have to rush or to see a client when are you going to be Prime Minister? Because you have got to run this country? I can see John cheering you on, amazing. What energy and what passion and what in-depth psychological understanding that kind of brings together the politics and the mental health. Yeah, I'm voting for you, claudia.

Claudia: 52:58

Oh, and you're in my cabinet. I think you got John's vote as well, and yeah.

Claudia: 53:06

I think it's been no, thank you, because you know I want to tell you something, but I really wanted to say this as well.

Claudia: 53:12

So you know, the relational depth, the book which is one of my favorite books that you help right. There is a moment in therapy when I went to have a session with a client that I remember working in and I wanted to share this because he meant the world to me and I never thought I would say that to you because I trained on that book, so it's just an honor. So I walked into that room and I remember seeing a tree. When I saw my client, I saw a beautiful tree, beautiful big leaves, really beautiful, and I said, I mean, you know in Spanish, because in the Latin American organization, as I was walking, I said, you know, following that trust in that relational depth, you know, I felt this is that relational depth moment and I said, you know, I just saw a tree and my client just said that's because my roots are now going into the ground and I feel that today it was so beautiful, it was so in Spanish, oh, it was so beautiful. So, yeah, that was wonderful, so I wanted to share that.

Mick: 54:16

Thank you for sharing that, claudia. It's been such a pleasure meeting you and listening to you, and we'll definitely be inviting you back.

Claudia: 54:23

It's amazing what you're doing. Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much, guys, and yeah, do great work. Bye, bye, thank you.