The Storyteller's Guide to Leadership Transitions with Jane Halford

On today's episode, we talk with Jane Halford, founder of Halford Consulting. Jane is passionate about the power of storytelling and how it shapes leadership. She candidly shares her personal experience of overcoming workplace bullying as a CEO, and how she transformed her challenges into a powerful message. Jane also delves into her extensive expertise in leadership and transition, emphasizing the crucial role of preparedness in navigating change and driving success for businesses of all sizes.

Her insights on preparedness, strategic planning, and governance also provide valuable lessons in the boardroom. Jane shares stories about how she helps boards with leadership transition and some personal experiences at the board table. Jane's stories cover a wide range of topics, from discussing the 'dating before marrying' approach to board commitments to being the Chair of the board of a Crown Corporation to her involvement with the Rick Hansen Foundation.

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Resources
Halford Consulting
Farm Credit Canada
Rick Hansen Foundation
The 5 Languages of Appreciation in the Workplace

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Transcript

Jane: 0:00

What I've come to appreciate is most people don't remember what you said to them. They might remember a story, so it's like, oh okay, well, I kind of heard this story once and you know, they can't remember whether I said it or the next person, but the lesson of the story stuck with them, rather than if I give you some technical piece of information. And so that's where I've seen that stories really can transform groups, because you're kind of paying it forward in that much more. You know thousands of years of history of our culture, of that oral storytelling. There's a reason. Our ancestors did it that way and we've lost that art.

Amy: 0:36

Welcome to Voices of Leadership, the podcast that shines a spotlight on the remarkable women of the International Women's Forum. I'm your host, amy, and I'm inviting you on a journey through the minds of trailblazers. Each episode is a candid conversation with women leaders who are reshaping industries, defying norms and being instigators of change. Through these conversations, we aim to ignite a fire of inspiration within you, whether you're a budding leader, a seasoned executive or simply someone with a passion for growth. On today's episode, we welcome Jane Halford, founder of Halford Consulting.

Amy: 1:16

Jane is passionate about the power of storytelling and she shares her personal story of being bullied as a CEO and how she turned her mess into her message. Jane also talks to us about her extensive expertise in leadership and transition. Jane also talks to us about her extensive expertise in leadership and transition. She reveals why preparedness is crucial for any business, no matter its size, and how it can make all the difference in navigating change and fostering success. Hi, jane, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for having me today, amy. I'm so excited that you're on the show. You are our first IWF member from the Edmonton Chapter.

Jane: 2:12

Well, it's always good to be first, but there's a lot of amazing ladies across IWF for sure.

Amy: 2:18

Absolutely so on that. How did you first get involved in IWF?

Jane: 2:23

I was really fortunate because the founders of the Edmonton chapter reached out to me and, like a lot of us, you know, somebody says, well, you know want to set up a women's leadership group. You're like, no, I don't have time for that. And I remember it was Ruth. Kelly was one of the founders and she said, oh, it's not like that, it's totally different. It's a guilt-free organization and I'm like I've never heard of this concept before. So long story short, I became one of the original members of the Edmonton chapter and, honestly, until I went to the first US-based conference, I didn't really get what IWF was about and the power of the sisterhood across the world. So super grateful for Ruth for kicking us off.

Amy: 3:06

I find that all of the chapter founders are like that. In Waterloo Ginny is the same. She really promotes the guilt-free philosophy and really made it part of the culture. So it makes it easy to be a part of the organization. Yes, so you are not just a member of IWF, you are also currently the treasurer on the national board. Is that correct?

Jane: 3:23

Yes, 10 months into the job and I have learned a lot.

Amy: 3:30

Is this the first national board position you've had with IWF?

Jane: 3:34

Yeah, I was on the local chapter for many years but that was definitely pre-pandemic, so it was a long time ago and this was the first entry into the national board and, you know, amazed by the people and the dedication at the board level. But we've also gone through a massive transformation in the last 10 months and so I have to say those women are brave to take on as much as we did. But I know that the organization will be better because we went on that journey.

Amy: 3:59

Oh, that's really good to hear. I mean, it is a fabulous group of women for sure. Now let's talk a little bit about you. One of your areas of expertise is leadership and governance transition, and these are two topics I'm always trying to continually learn about because transition is so constant. So can you tell us a bit about what leadership and governance transition is and how you help people and companies with those transitions?

Jane: 4:22

That's a great passion of mine, both of them.

Jane: 4:26

I'll talk about them separately because they're quite different, although they sound similar so leadership transition in my world is helping an organization get ready for changing a CEO. So how do we make sure that the outgoing CEO leaves behind their knowledge and know-how? How do we provide a project team around the next leader, even if we don't know who they are? And how do we make sure both the board and the team are supporting that new leader in the first year? Because the reality is that 40% of CEOs quit or get fired in the first two years on the job, and that's a North American statistic, pre-pandemic, so it actually could be worse now.

Jane: 5:02

So my passion is to solve that problem, and a lot of the solving it comes from realizing that you can actually project plan this, as opposed to just waiting for the new leader to find their way. And I suspect a lot of the listeners have experienced that in a volunteer job and a career job where it's like over to you, amy, you're the new CEO, find your way. So that's what the leadership transition is. The governance transition I get lots of calls, probably over the years, around our governance isn't working, our board isn't working, or our board and the CEO aren't working together. So that's really around saying, well, something's not working for you, where do you want it to be and how do we go on this journey together to actually get you to that place, whether that's relationships or policies or practices, and so really just helping them create their future for governance and the relationship with their CEO.

Amy: 5:53

Those are two very fascinating things to work on. I think it's very interesting. But why is it important to prepare for change in a key leadership role?

Jane: 6:01

I think that most organizations keep in denial that their CEO is going to leave and hopefully you know, those same organizations find themselves in an orderly transition, a happy retirement, some signals like that. But the reality is that an emergency can happen at any time and and sadly, I've been a board member where we've had a CEO that passed away and so once you live that, you say no, never again will I go on a board where we don't have first an emergency plan or something that says when we get that news, even if it's happy that we can catch our breath and say we know how to navigate this. So getting ready in the emergency is the key, because you can always leverage that emergency plan for happy time, that you have more ability to leverage the outgoing person. But it's just so important and I think people are afraid to mention that because they worry they're going to send a message to their CEO that they want them to leave. But I don't think, after living through the pandemic, any of us can deny that you should have an emergency plan.

Amy: 7:01

I love the sound of that the emergency plan. That was actually. My next question is how do you prepare or how do you help companies when the leadership transition is reactionary or unexpected? And I mean, the answer is the emergency plan. But how often do you find people that don't have one?

Jane: 7:20

So when I get the call whether it's like a crisis type emergency or just a failure to plan a welcome for a new CEO it happens all the time I'll get a call on a Friday saying our new CEO starts on Monday. What should we prepare? Wow? So okay, well, first let's catch our breath. So the number one place to be, once you actually just calm down, is what's most important right now.

Jane: 7:47

So for some organizations it's put a temporary leader in place and, if you didn't have one, find a plan for a short period of time maybe that's weeks at a time. But then once we get that now it's like let's get clear what does this emergency leader need to do for us right now? And it really depends on the time, the circumstance, the organization that they're walking into, and eventually, weeks or months down the road, then the board and that temporary leader can say how do we get to a more stable state? So I think it's just let's be realistic that we need to get through the day, day one, we need to get through week one and then we can get the luxury of month one, month two. But I think it's just being reasonable that you can't do it all in one day you can't recruit a new CEO, and probably more. You know it takes at least three to six months to do that. So let's just be real and let's use the resources we have, the people we have.

Amy: 8:42

So it sounds like you work a lot with CEOs and boards and larger companies. Do you have any steps a smaller business could take when creating an emergency plan for transition?

Jane: 8:54

It's funny because the unknown thing is that this works for a four-person not-for-profit and a 10,000-person public company. It's the same principles, it's just they have different resources. But I always say that the four to five to 10 people around that CEO is the whole solution for both the emergency and the orderly handover. So in a small organization that's everybody. In a big organization it's the, you know, the chief of staff, the direct reports, like a handful of people. So we actually don't worry as much about scale, which is great, because if you're a small not-for-profit, then okay, just get it done anyways.

Amy: 9:34

Well, it's great that such a broad principle can be applied to a company of any size.

Jane: 9:39

Yes, I think that you know, in the small organizations they realize that they won't have the next CEO or the emergency CEO in place. So before that happens, they're just going to have to realize who are they going to ask or how are they going to recruit that? And so maybe it's a board member, maybe it's somebody in their community, so it's good to know who it is. But be realistic. You can't take somebody who's necessarily trained as a program worker and make them your CEO and not overwhelm them or take them out of the service of whoever that organization is helping.

Amy: 10:14

It's really good advice for all of us. I think I've heard you use the phrase make your mess your message. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

Jane: 10:21

Well, I'll first say it's not a phrase that I developed. It's a phrase I heard. I heard it during the pandemic from Dean Graziosi, so he's kind of an influencer leader in the US and I don't even know if it's his phrase, but I loved it. And the concept behind it is we all have these messy things that happen to us in life, and some of them are big and some of them are small.

Jane: 10:42

But if we talk about them and we use those stories to inspire us, those learnings to inspire us, then we can really say to the rest of the people we work with or we connect within the community it doesn't matter that this happened to you, what was your lesson learned? How can you pay that forward? And so I would say that my entire business around leadership and governance transition is, in fact, my mess. It's the journey I went through as a CEO. It's the journey I've been through as a board member and saying, well, I don't want to repeat these things. I'll go make different mistakes or have different pain points later, but let me pay it forward from the messes that I've navigated in those I don't know almost 30 years of career now, so what was your?

Jane: 11:25

mess as a CEO. My biggest mess was actually, interestingly, that I had to quit my career because I was bullied from outside the organization. Oh, that's awful. And what was interesting about that, and which is why I actually like to share this story, is that when it took courage to say it to the board, it's so vulnerable and I remember the day I did that, I wasn't sure if they were going to fire me because you just don't know and you've kind of living in this toxic environment for long enough. They didn't fire me. They did actually the right thing. They said hire whoever you need to keep yourself well and, by the way, can you hire the board somebody to help them navigate? And so we hired this expert. He's amazing.

Jane: 12:08

But what happened was the bully turned their attention to the board members Wow, and the bully was very effective.

Jane: 12:14

So the board members' careers, retirement security was now at threat and the board rightfully so, in their individual ways said we're not fighting this fight Now.

Jane: 12:25

They weren't that explicit. I had to figure that out, but I realized my choice was to stay in this toxic environment and find a way to survive or to actually exit, and so exiting under, I guess, my own terms, but not my ideal timeline was my mess, and part of that mess kind of went into. You know, pop out on the other side of that with no, no income, no career plan, super exhausted and having to find my way back to sort of what am I going to do for the rest of my life, and and that was its own story. But I think that mess of like being in that toxic environment and finding your way is something that sadly happens across our organizations even to this day. But I'd like to put voice to it. So people say, hey, if that's happening to me or somebody else that you care about, first of all tell them it's not okay, get them to help and then help them understand that this journey they're going to be okay in the end, but it doesn't feel good right now.

Amy: 13:21

That's an incredible story, but you're right, sadly, probably a common one.

Jane: 13:26

Yes, I hear that quite often when I share that. It often comes back as I've experienced that. I am experiencing that, I've seen that before and I think that's how we break the cycle in Canada. We just say you know what? This is not okay, or there are tools, or talk to people that have experienced it and let's get together the wave of people that won't tolerate it anymore.

Amy: 13:48

I think that's great. I mean, there's so many bullies everywhere and sometimes they are hard to stand up to and sometimes, when you do it's, you don't even succeed at it and you do have to exit and find a new path.

Jane: 13:59

Yeah.

Amy: 14:00

I love that phrase. I'm going to probably have to borrow it because it's applicable everywhere.

Jane: 14:05

It totally is, whether that's your personal life, your career life, community service life, it's everywhere and you know, this is a part of being human, like we're, in person, perfect, and then weird things happen and we navigate them. And why not make that the story that enables all of us together?

Amy: 14:23

So let's talk a little bit about giving back. You've mentioned community a couple of times. You are a very active and experienced board member, but before we get to that, can you talk to us about how you harness your individual interest and talents to make the world better, and how do you guide and encourage others to do the same?

Jane: 14:40

Well, I would love to tell you that this was a really intentional part of my journey. You know I'm so thankful to my father. He was really the inspiration on the community service. He was a great dad, he was always present, he had a career, but he also served the community and so when I was growing up, that was what somebody did, and so you take those role models and you say, oh, that's why I'm driven to do that.

Jane: 15:06

In those early years, you know, I was a chartered accountant by first profession and everybody wanted the volunteer treasurer and so I was drawn into some of those opportunities because of my professional training and willingness to do. It is that the more I moved around those different community organizations, the more I started to realize what causes, what communities, what people do I feel most drawn to. And so for myself it was a bit of experimentation, getting involved in organizations that were not super familiar to me. I remember going down to an inner city shelter for men and women under the influence of drugs, alcohol or anything else, and I remember thinking, well, I love these people and and I feel called to be a part of the support system for them, but I I don't know anything about addictions or any, or health or anything like that. And so I said to the executive director like I don't know if I'm the right person to serve here. So, oh my gosh, we have a whole household of people that understand our clients. We don't have business people.

Jane: 16:10

And it really was a great lesson for me to say don't be afraid of experimenting or trying something new. It could be a big thing, like going on a board, but it could also be a small thing like volunteering for an organization, and it's okay to say that's not my thing. I've been on other organizations where I'm happy that those kinds of organizations are in the world, but it's not what I wake up driven to do. So for me it was experimenting, meeting people and trying new things, and that's why I encourage everybody to do that. Just do small things and decide what fills your heart with joy and what doesn't, and do more of the things that fill your heart with joy.

Amy: 16:48

That's very good advice, and especially the part about finding the right fit and it's okay to try something and leave. So I think that that's something we all have to keep in mind, because often we just say yes.

Jane: 17:00

That's right. Or when you go blindly into things, which we've all done, just say what are the lessons I'm going to take from this, and you can honor your commitments, no problem. But while you're there, take something forward, give something back, and then just realize that that kind of opportunity isn't your thing for the future.

Amy: 17:17

I like that. So you are on a variety of boards with very different focuses. So how do you decide then, on this conversation, which boards you would like to be involved with?

Jane: 17:26

Well, today I do a better job. I get overly committed, for sure. I would say that the first thing is, you know, looking at the organization and its place in the world, can I get excited about that? And for some things, yeah, it's like heck. Yes, that's what I love. Now do I have time to do it in the way that I think it will take.

Jane: 17:49

That's a harder one to clear the bar and then really then at some point it's who else is around the table. That's a harder one to clear the bar and then really then at some point it's who else is around the table. So that's not necessarily the board members, the CEO, you know who's the supporters in the community on those places. But I would say that, being clear about what I bring to the table and if that's the right fit for them at this point in life, great, let's keep talking. If it's not, let me help you find the person who does so.

Jane: 18:15

I think sometimes just you know that two-way interview process to say am I the right fit for you, are you the right fit for me, and to say no to the things that really aren't, because anytime I've gone against my gut, I've regretted it and I think it's just a lesson learned. You get tempted and you feel honored that people ask you and then at the end of the day you know a board is probably a three to five year or more commitment. So you should date before you marry your board. That's my bottom line.

Amy: 18:44

I like that. Well, you also said you're better at it now, and I think a lot of us can say that, because in the beginning it's nice to be asked.

Jane: 18:51

Yes, and for a lot of board members that I talk to across the country, you know they're looking to expand their board experience or get their first board experience, and so you know they will say yes to a lot of things that aren't the right fit, and you know what. Everybody has to start somewhere. So if you can get the first or the second, the others will come. And people always ask me well, how did you build up that many boards? Well, I said yes to those few volunteer treasurer opportunities which, quite honestly, like there's a reason I don't practice accounting anymore. I don't love that word, but it was my way to serve and then realizing that you know, if you called and asked me to be on a board, even if I love the organization, but you wanted me to chair the audit committee, the answer is probably no, because it's just not what I love to do on a board. I like to do other things and my resume doesn't necessarily speak to those other things. So that's why the two way conversation really matters.

Amy: 19:45

It does. So what are some organizations you are currently involved with?

Jane: 19:49

I'm the chair of Farm Credit Canada, so that's a $48 billion federal crown corporation. Very interesting. I have a whole new appreciation for organization where a government is your shareholder, so very separate from the federal government, however interconnected. And you know, I've been on provincial crowns as well and it's the same kind of thing that you either get not enough attention from your shareholder, which is often the case, better quality problem to have or you get too much attention right. So there's a different balance. So I've been a big learning curve on that Also.

Jane: 20:23

You know, just realizing, even in a bilingual organization where I didn't grow up doing much more than high school French, like part of my job is to increase my French skills and I'm committed to that. The organization supports me in that. But that has been a humbling journey. So any of our members that are bilingual or close to, oh, I just admire everyone, because as an adult learner you really have to park any worry that you have around your ego around looking stupid and you just say you know this matters more to me that I try than not. So that's a big one. A few charity boards that I'm involved with and some agriculture technology startups, which I have to say are really interesting but fundamentally, like I don't get the technology side Technology engineering, health sciences all those things are now on my list of. I'm not the best board member in those environments. I'll serve this board from the roles I can, but probably not going to do more of those.

Amy: 21:25

Right, and it is a different thing the tech sector and it requires a different understanding of how it works, because it's very speculative and not tangible.

Jane: 21:36

And the people that are good at it. They should do this kind of work. They really should.

Amy: 21:39

Yes, I agree. I'd like to ask a little bit more about the farm credit though, because I didn't realize it was fully like a crown corporation and then that was your shareholders. So I mean, we all sit on boards and we have the CEO come and we have shareholders and all of those things. How does that work in the meeting then, when it's the crown?

Jane: 22:02

So they don't come to meetings, and which is fine. You know it's more of a formal reporting process. So formal approval of the annual plan and the annual budget by the government of Canada, so the board kind of does its normal thing. But then you send it off to your shareholder for their approval of it. And lots of times they approve it. But you know even now like the government is asking a whole bunch of the crowns to take more risk. Well, that just came out in the federal budget recently. So now we need to figure out what to do with that.

Jane: 22:33

We're excited by that challenge. That's a great thing for the country, but you still have to change your strategy and your plan a bit. So there's that. And then the annual accountability back, and sometimes that's in reporting back on your CEO's performance or you know your compliance with budget or your outcomes. But you also realize that every once in a while we go through this election cycle and you know the government is looking for sort of more of those soundbites. You know how are you helping in? You know this natural disaster, or how are you helping? You know, in our case, next generation farmers like buy out from their parents, those kinds of things. So it's really interesting to have kind of a mandate and a business to run. So it's like we're here for the business of agriculture and food and we also need to run a solid financial institution. So it's actually both, which is pretty amazing in the in the crown sector, that you actually get the societal good and the business good at the same time.

Amy: 23:34

It's fascinating. So when a budget comes out or when there is an election, do you pause or regroup, or how does that work?

Jane: 23:42

Most times your business will carry on. There may be some restrictions on your activities. So lots of times you know you won't be able to do a lot of things publicly during an election period, which is fine, but your plan is already approved. So whether the government changes or doesn't change, you know, you kind of carry on until your next plan gets approved. So there's a lot more stability because you think if you know, we're part of the banking industry if one bank has to stop because there's an election, it just won't work for the customer. So there is more continuity than you think. But you just have to be mindful about the restrictions and what will keep you out of more political agendas.

Amy: 24:23

Yes, is it meant to be an apolitical organization then?

Jane: 24:26

Absolutely, absolutely. There's absolute restrictions on board member political activity at all times. So you asked me to be involved in federal politics of any kind, volunteer fundraising. The answer is no, which is clear because I got other things to do in my world.

Amy: 24:42

Yeah, exactly, that's just so interesting.

Jane: 24:45

It's just such a different board and I've never heard anybody speak about it, so that's fascinating, it's an untapped potential, especially for women that are looking for big scale boards but are accessible because there's an open process. You can apply online they. You know, I've had great experience from the board's perspective in the recruitment of next board members. So any of your members are looking for provincial crowns, federal crowns, and say, look at your government websites. They'll be there and it's a free and open process and it creates more opportunities than you can imagine.

Amy: 25:19

What would be an example of a provincial crown then?

Jane: 25:23

You might have, like in Alberta, we would have Alberta Innovates, which is like the innovation funder for universities and projects, those kinds of things. In Ontario you probably have some of the infrastructures like the capital corporations, those kinds of things, so you probably not know that they're crowns but they are Right.

Amy: 25:45

That's what I'm thinking is that I had no, I would have no idea that they would fall under that, so that's good to know. Absolutely, I don't know if you're still involved, but can I ask you about your involvement in the Rick Hansen Foundation?

Jane: 25:56

Yes, I am still involved there. And yeah, I. You know, we all grew up with Rick being this amazing icon and you know, whatever your age and stage was like the man in Motion tour.

Amy: 26:07

Yeah, that's why I wanted to ask you, because as a kid that's what I remember and it was just so engaging and like I was enthralled with the whole process and I just I'm curious what the organization is up to now.

Jane: 26:19

Absolutely. And just to put a timestamp on it, it's almost 40 years ago since that tour happened, so I'm just saying.

Jane: 26:27

I was surprised let's not talk about that ability to add awareness and add influence and change policy over those 30 plus years for understanding that the world actually has not been accessible for all kinds of people, and there's been great changes in society around looking around, but you know there's some small things that are just incredible. You know, anytime you get a snowstorm, take a look at the accessible parking spot. Has it been shoveled? You know, is there a ramp actually for somebody to get out of a vehicle and actually get to the step and, as an able-bodied person like you, step over the windrow of snow? And so it's small things like that that helps business owners do better, and so the foundation itself has an amazing program for accessibility.

Jane: 27:27

Where they're, they'll come and assess a physical space oh, that's interesting inside or outside, so that they could say, hey, if you have different kinds of abilities, so not just your body, be able to move a certain way, but sight, hearing, neurodiversity, and so how can people be able to integrate into our spaces in a way that that's right for them? And, and I think one of the things that's really relevant to our members is, lots of us have aging parents or, you know, our younger members have little ones. So how do you get a stroller in, out and around, how do you, how do you have a senior get through a building properly, on their own or with somebody? So those kinds of things are really changing the world, and so I think that's a program that we're very proud of is to say, you know, building owners, building developers, are now saying why don't we build it accessible first, and then we'll figure out what the programming inside the place?

Amy: 28:21

looks like it's a great way to look at it. I mean, as a mom of twins, I definitely had difficulty with the stroller all the time. Yes, for sure. So is neurodiversity a new part of their mandate.

Jane: 28:35

It is. You know it's only been even in the last few weeks that we've announced that we have some more supports to help organizations understand their accessibility for neurodiversity. And you know it's not an area that I'm an expert in, once again, but you know, helping to understand whether that's, you know even the colors or the layout of, you know different spaces and places, help somebody with who sees the world slightly differently than you might, to feel welcome or not, to feel anxious, or you know to find their way around. So I think you know I've learned a lot, and especially when you go into buildings that are built intentionally for different kinds of people, you know, as a, as an able-bodied person, you don't even necessarily see all those small things until somebody says do you know why the wall is this color? Well, it's the contrast to the corner. Oh, I didn't realize that.

Jane: 29:26

Or do you know why the wall is this color? Well, it's the contrast to the corner. Oh, I didn't realize that. Or do you know why the handle is in this place on the door? No, I didn't, you know. So I think that that's really cool to be able to look at the world differently. And I, you know, I would say if you look at Vancouver Airport as an example, you know it's a gold standard for accessibility. Well, when I take my mom there in a wheelchair assist boy, do I ever see that airport differently? And so you know, places like airports are a great example of how we can do better for everyone.

Amy: 29:55

Yes, I agree. I'm so excited to hear that they've branched out, though, to neurodiversity. That's something that I'm personally interested in, and I think that there's so many places that it needs to expand to.

Jane: 30:07

That's right, and we're all on a learning journey, right. And then I think that that's None of us know enough about it Exactly, and I think that you know it's like the, you know that's going back to you know, get interested, be interested, try to see the world a different place, meet some different people, and that's where IWF is very strong. You're going to meet people here that you don't meet in maybe your everyday walk of life.

Amy: 30:29

That's right, absolutely. So what are your thoughts or personal experiences with regard to the number of women represented on boards?

Jane: 30:37

Depends on the place. I suppose, Interestingly for our credit, Canada, we are 75% women.

Amy: 30:44

Fantastic. I love to hear that.

Jane: 30:47

This is kind of ironic that I had to write to the minister and ask for male board members. So that was a real shocker and glad to have that happen in my lifetime, you know. I would say that I think the world is getting better at it. I think that what isn't fully plugged in yet is how do boards find these amazing women? And you still have to ask around, because a lot of women who get on boards are so busy they don't have time for more, but they have other women in their worlds to say, hey, I might not have time for this, but Amy's interested in this, she's skilled in this, here's another name. And so I think that's where we can all make a difference is make sure we're actively looking for those places where we can advance other names, other biographies and I think the IWF network is amazing at that, because it's easy to drop somebody a note to say, hey, you know, I met this person and they may be a great fit for your board. Somebody a note to say, hey, you know, I met this person and they may be a great fit for your board. But I think that the numbers are getting better. I think if I have a worry, I have a worry for not just women, but I think all kinds of diversity of worldviews is, once we get these, you know, a diverse board in place, are we actually leveraging the talent of the people on it, so it doesn't matter who's sitting in what seat? Now I actually worry that we run the board meetings in the same way we used to, which is probably just biased in all kinds of ways, and so I'm trying to be a lot more mindful.

Jane: 32:15

As a board chair is like what am I doing?

Jane: 32:17

That doesn't create equality in the voices or create different ways for people to participate.

Jane: 32:24

You know, one quick example is you know the person who's a bit introverted and won't speak first.

Jane: 32:31

Well, how are we facilitating that? We hear that person's voice on key issues, and sometimes it can be as straightforward as asking them, but for some people they don't like to talk on the fly, so I may have to reach out to them and say you know, it's going to be really important that everybody speaks on this topic, so I'm going to ask you early to speak, so the person knows it's coming at them, and what I find when I do that is that the board will actually stop because that person doesn't speak very often, so when they do is like, wow, what does this person have to say? And now you get better conversation in the room, you make better decisions or you have better understanding of the different lenses on this topic. And so I think if there's a place that we could also do better is making sure our board meetings are more inclusive to all of the amazing kinds of people that get into the board, women being some of them, but also different life experiences.

Amy: 33:26

That is such a great example of a different way to look at diversity, because there are so many different types of people on boards and you're right, some people like to prepare and some people can go on the fly and you would probably miss those people who prepare and you would miss their opinions, which would probably not be good for the organization.

Jane: 33:44

That's right. And some of those people who don't speak first, it's actually a sign of respect in their relative culture. So they would never speak out of order or they would never speak and interrupt somebody who's more senior to them or perceived to be senior to them. So there's all kinds of reasons that they might not. So it's board chair's job and other board members to create that.

Jane: 34:06

Your voice is not only welcome here, it's encouraged. And how do we make that safe? And for some of them it just takes building that trust and rapport that that style is okay here, even if in lots of parts of your life it's actually not okay. And so, like, creating that kind of conversation is so fascinating because I've learned so much about different experiences and worldviews. Then you start to think, okay, these are the things I've learned. What are all the things I have never learned? And that's why I'm really mindful that I think the systems of board meetings are probably excluding an awful lot of good thoughts, because they've been constructed in the way they have by the group of people in our society that were there at those tables for the last hundred years.

Amy: 34:51

Yes, agreed, and I mean you could even take that all the way back to onboarding and start putting those messages in your onboarding to help get people more comfortable with the idea about how this particular board works.

Jane: 35:03

Yeah, and sometimes you can do it with fun, like. One of the things I do for fun is that even at a board dinner I might go around and lots of the members will remember the five love languages book. Yes, this idea that everybody receives appreciation and love in different ways, well, it got rewritten for the workplace. So same five love languages, right. But I might go around at a board table and say at the board dinner and say what are your top two languages of appreciation? And everybody just names them after I explain it.

Jane: 35:31

Well, now suddenly you can realize how you could thank honor, recognize different people differently, including your CEO, and it's so fascinating because they've seen that transform. You know the chemistry in the group, because suddenly I now realize I need to speak your language, not the language that I like to receive, and so you know it kind of puts a fun spin on. We're all different, we're all human and we see the world differently. But oh my goodness, it's appreciation and love. Okay, well, let's try something. If we get it wrong, you're just not going to feel it the same way, but it's, let's try that until we actually have a serious issue and then we'll be in a better place. That we know we trust each other and that we can have those hard conversations.

Amy: 36:16

That's fantastic. I think you must make an excellent board chair.

Jane: 36:20

It takes work. I've got better over time and I know I can still get better it takes work.

Amy: 36:25

I've got better over time and I know I can still get better. So you talked a little bit about how sharing stories empowers and inspires others as they face challenges. So can you talk to us a little bit about what you mean by that and then how you've done it yourself?

Jane: 36:36

Well, in our society we are so busy and probably a lot of times we're kind of half paying attention to everything because it's really noisy. What I've come to appreciate is most people don't remember what you said to them. They might remember a story so it's like, oh okay. Well, I kind of heard this story once and you know they can't remember whether I said it or the next person, but the lesson of the story stuck with them, rather than if I give you some technical piece of information. And so that's where I've seen that stories really can transform groups because you're kind of paying it forward in that much more.

Jane: 37:13

You know thousands of years of history of our culture, of that oral storytelling. There's a reason our ancestors did it that way and we've lost that art. And so you think about all the stories you know, whether that's family members or colleagues have shared with you. You will remember those. And so that's where I encourage people to think about the storytelling aspect. But the discipline there is to keep it short. One minute story, a two minute story it is not the 30 minute story because nobody has attention span for that. So you know what's the scene of the story, what's the lesson of the story, and then move on.

Amy: 37:49

What's the story you like to tell that inspires everyone?

Jane: 37:52

Well, I think the bullying story is one of them. I do often share, in the right settings, the story of the CEO passing away in the boardroom, and I share that from the emergency preparedness perspective, but I also share it from, I'm going to say, the shame that I felt after the fact because, after all was said and done, one of the things I recognized but 10 years later, was that I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything to help the chair, I didn't do anything to help the family members or the staff. I just literally got an airplane and left, and that shame really stuck with me for a long time. And so the moral of the story for me is that I felt that I didn't have anything to offer.

Jane: 38:38

Well, in the middle of a crisis of any kind, in any setting, just offer something. And even if I would have said to the chair I don't know how I can help, but let me help you or I'm here to you know, support you, or reach out and ask if they're okay. So I think for all of us as leaders, realizing in those moments of darkness you can be a light, a light of hope, a light of calm, a light of strength, whatever it needs to be, and we need to shine that light.

Amy: 39:05

I think that that was very, very inspiring and also I really took away from that is just saying how can I help? Because those situations you talk about are so unexpected and ideally they don't happen often, so of course we don't always know how to react.

Jane: 39:22

Yeah, and you think about that in your family life, right? Whether that's your family that's in your home, or your extended family or you know neighbor. You know, in those moments of like heaviness and some of it is so traumatic, whether it's offering a gift of food or you know, just saying how about we go for a walk, like you just you don't know what's going to stick with somebody, even a text, like there's times where you go. I don't know if I should send this person a text on this. Maybe this is too sensitive. I shouldn't send by text. Do it anyways. You know, you just don't know. And I think that's one thing our society has taken away from. The pandemic is, you know the importance of, you know, mental health and well-being. But I would say, err on the side of overdoing it. And you know what, if you're way overdoing it, somebody is going to tell you and I guess that in our society nobody's going to feel over supported and overloved. I just don't think that problem exists.

Amy: 40:17

No, I don't think it does either. Jane, you have given us so many nuggets of advice and inspiration, but what advice do you have for the next generation of women leaders?

Jane: 40:30

One of the things that I did wrong, or I would love to have done differently, is that I bet I spent 10 to 15 years of my career trying to be what I thought others expected me to be. So this is how a professional looks, this is how a board member looks, this is how a community member looks, and I didn't actually step back and say, well, who am I as a person and how does that person show up into that role? So I think this next generation that's coming up is a lot more self-aware of who they are and now their challenge will be to bring that first to those roles and to not apologize for it. I mean especially young women. You know they feel like they have to apologize for being themselves. Well, guess what?

Jane: 41:14

Your male colleagues don't apologize, if you notice. So be yourself first, and you know what you're going to have to navigate the discomfort of some of that. But if you don't bring yourself first, then you're just becoming, you know, part of this stereotype and your magic factor can't bring any change to life. So I think it's that courage and that's where I think, between the next generation that's coming up and the generations that are kind of in those roles. Today let's have a conversation about how does somebody bring their full self in a younger part of their career first, and maybe some of those mentors can help them figure out how they do it. Differently for people like you and I that probably tried to fit in first and then figure themselves out at 40, 50 years old.

Amy: 42:01

I agree. I mean, I relate exactly to what you're saying. I tried so hard to fit in and dress the way I thought I should and it was exhausting, and the minute I figured it out I was so much better off. So I agree, the sooner the better. It just makes everything more enjoyable.

Jane: 42:18

Absolutely, and I think there's just so many things that we can think about from a mentorship or making a difference to the next generation, and it doesn't have to be a formal program. It could be any interaction you have with. You know your nieces, your nephews, your grandchildren, somebody else's children. You know people that you interact with on a regular basis at organizations that you're part of, part of, and I think just even stopping and learning somebody's name and referring to them by name can be part of that modeling what a connected society could look like.

Amy: 42:51

Fantastic advice and thank you for all of your stories. They have all stuck with me, so you are correct that I'm going to remember the stories more than the specifics of the conversation, but thank you for sharing all of your stories. I really appreciate it Well.

Jane: 43:06

Thank you, amy, for helping all of us tell our stories, because it's an amazing group of people and everybody's making an individual difference and together we really do change the world.

Amy: 43:17

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