Working as a College Chaplain - with Jane Ellen Nickell

Jane Ellen Nickell is enjoying retirement, after serving 16 years as Chaplain of Allegheny College, which followed a career in performing arts management and marketing. A native of West Virginia, she currently lives in Meadville, Pennsylvania, with two feline companions. In retirement, she keeps busy gardening, cooking, doing yoga, making music, reading, and writing. She also works with Third Act Faith, a group of activists over age 60 who are addressing climate and democracy.

For a college chaplain, death is a relatively rare occurrence, but it is often unexpected and involves losing someone at a young age. The job also involves counseling students who have lost family members.

You can find her blog here: https://nickellforyourthoughts.org

You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn. Also, we would love your financial support and you can join us on Patreon. Anyone who supports us at any level will be invited to a special live, online conversation with Annalouiza and Wakil.

And we would love your feedback and want to hear your stories. You can email us at endoflifeconvo@gmail.com.

Transcript

Wakil

Okay. Well, let's take another breath and we'll begin the official part of this recording. We want to thank you all for being here with us.

We are so honored to welcome our guest today, Jane Ellen Nickel. Welcome, Jane.

Jane Ellen

Thank you. And I should have said I do go by Jane Ellen.

Annalouiza

Oh. That's good to know. Well, Jane Ellen Nickel is enjoying retirement after serving 16 years as a chaplain of Allegheny College, sorry, of chaplain of Allegheny College, which followed a career

in performing arts, management, and marketing. In native of West Virginia, she currently lives in Meadville, Pennsylvania with two feline companions.

In retirement, she keeps busy gardening, cooking, doing yoga, making music, reading, and writing. She also works with Third Act Faith, a group of activists over age of 60 who are addressing climate and democracy.

For a college chaplain, death is a relatively rare occurrence, but it is often unexpected and involved losing someone at a young age.

The job also involves counseling students who have lost family members.

Wakil

So much for joining us for this conversation today. We're really glad to have you. We like to start with this question.

When did you first become aware of death?

Jane Ellen

Oh, what a good question to start with.

Oh, I'm in the church.

So I was aware of people dying and there being funerals. So that was probably before any of my family members died would have been when I became aware that this thing happens to us.

It makes many people very sad.

But I think being raised in the church, there was also that comfort piece built in to how we address grief and loss.

Annalouiza

Isn't there?

Jane Ellen

There are beliefs about the afterlife and there is a community of support as you're undergoing this.

Annalouiza

Do you remember an initial experience with that through your church?

 Jane Ellen

I can't.

I think the first person I was close to 

Wakil

We've talked about that in these conversations that we've had about the process itself is the part that we're all maybe most afraid of and most uncomfortable with.

And yet it's also one of the can be one of the more sacred and beautiful times in our lives, just what being with people in that time.

Yeah, thank you. That's what church, by the way, did you grow up in?

Jane Ellen

I went to a Methodist church.

Wakil

Okay.

Jane Ellen

It's now for the United Methodist in Buchanan, West Virginia.

Wakil

Oh, nice. Okay.

Annalouiza

So Jane Ellen, how does death impact your story about what you've done for your vocation?

Jane Ellen

So, um, as I, you know, I mentioned, as you mentioned in the bio, you don't deal with death as often.

I mean, I had been a pastor for three years and, you know, dearly and I've done funerals for folks that then they just call me to do a few.

But in my vocational calling and my work as a college chaplain, didn't deal with death often. But when I did, it was always usually unexpected.

Very tragic. We had students hit by cars. We had students die by suicide. We had students overdose. had a couple of students who died of cancer, and that was equally tragic.

We had faculty members who we lost at young ages of ovarian cancer. But as I was thinking in terms of end-of-life conversations, we didn't have those, because this was a community of 18 and 19 and 20-year-olds who didn't expect.

They didn't think they were near the end of their life. There were a couple of staff members who I was part of those conversations with them as they were sick and dying.

It was more grief support after someone died. And it's initially helping young people come to terms with, oh my gosh, I just talked to her yesterday afternoon, and now she's gone.

And that sort of suddenness, and again, the unexpected nature of losing someone at such a young age. So I mean, I think that's why I offered to chat with you all.

Wakil, when you told me about this work, that it's really not what you tend to think of as grief support or end of life conversations because of the specific community that I was working with.

Annalouiza

Mm-hmm. Wow.

Wakil

So is there a specific story that you can think of that you might want to share with us. Obviously not names or anything, just something that was very impactful in your life in that time.

Jane Ellen

Well, just this year. I mean, I retired two years ago, and we had a student die of an overdose.

And part of this work again is you don't know how much you can share with the students who ask, well, how did it happen?

And it's like, well, it but and again as a pastor, what they share with me about the situation is not necessarily something that I can share with students.

So they actually asked me to come and help deal with that. And we had a gathering. Students, faculty, the president came and just hearing those students giving them a place to process to talk about, you know, what they remembered about this person, the impact that she made literally in about two months here that she was a first-year student and realizing that this student made a huge impact on the people that she knew while she was here and that they would not forget her.

As it was the first time they'd lost someone, not necessarily. They were close to as many of the lost grandparents, but appear.

know, someone at the age group, their age cohort had died. So I always say at times like that that the hardest part of this job is when someone dies because it is usually unexpected.

But the best part is the way the community comes together, support each other at a time like that. And that was certainly the case with this loss.

There was another time a student, and that was a year, think we had five deaths in one year. Faculty member and four students.

And this was a student who didn't come back from winter vacation. The Dean of Students reached out to the family and they said, well, the student passed away.

And of course we express condolences. What can we do? And they said, we don't want a big announcement. We don't want you to do a lot on campus about this.

Okay. So what do we do? Because there's, and it's happened to be the third student. and the same department that the faculty member that year had died.

So this was the fourth person that department had lost in a year, and it's a small department. So we did, you know, communicate to the faculty, someone from the counseling center and I went to all the classes with majors in them and, know, the news, were there to answer questions.

And I just said to the Deena students, if there are especially students, but anyone on campus that needs to get together and have a place to talk about this student, I'm going to do that.

It doesn't really matter to me what the family wants at this point. My role is to help this community get through this loss.

And he said, that's fine. So we didn't do a service. We had a gathering. the food service provided some pizza.

We had note cards and things that folks could write notes to his family. And we just spent some time, you know, an afternoon together.

Center always was like, oh, we don't want to trigger them. can't get them talking. about the person too soon.

Annalouiza

like, no, they need to talk about the person. Yeah.

Jane Ellen

How do I just thinking that, you know, one was a student who took his life and they found him on campus, friends of his found him.

Like, that's all they have right now in their mind, finding his body and they need to remember the student alive.

Wakil

Yeah.

Jane Ellen

They need to get back to those memories.

Annalouiza

Jane Ellen, that is really powerful and the story that you shared with us because I feel like I have heard people who don't want their death to be not necessarily broadcast, but like almost selfishly, not even contact family members.

Jane Ellen

Yeah.

Annalouiza

And it's strange to me, but I've up until this very moment, I've been like, well, that's the prerogative, you know, but I also know I was like about five, six years ago, I was at a funeral home and this particular funeral home that had less and less funerals.

And he I said, it's strange, but people don't want to actually do this. And they have this online pictures, and people can talk there, but that's about all that they offer.

And this person was like, I know it sounds like I want them to become here to make money, but people need to process the loss.

And when you don't offer space for it, it really isn't healthy. Can you just, can we talk about this?

what makes families choose to not give a story as all this? I don't like, I'm curious about this right now.

Jane Ellen

Yeah, yeah. it's interesting. You said it's like they don't. I think that the impetus sometimes is, oh, I don't want people talking about me.

 Annalouiza

Yeah.

Jane Ellen

Sometimes it's someone who's so shy or introverted or whatever, or I think non-religious people are like, well, what would they say?

What is there to say? But it's, I mean, it's a ritual. Ritual exists in our world for a reason.

that ritual of passage of acknowledging that this person has transitioned out of this life to whatever, when he believes comes afterwards.

And it's actually interesting. I have done more in the last few years than I did the first 10 years.

So many of them are not religious.

And so whereas a faculty member 10 years ago, probably would have had a church community, that's where they would have had a service, whatever.

Now the family's coming to me going, we really want to do something. the college was the community that meant the most of We actually had a professor who was an atheist.

And so I had to say right up front, when we started the service, I am here in a ceremonial role, not in a ritual and a religious role.

And we're going to honor this person's life in the way that they lived and what they believe because it's it's about yeah, you know, helping the whoever's left friends family community acknowledge the loss, but we tend to call them celebrations of life because that's ultimately celebrate the life they live the the ways they touched people When it all possible we give people the chance to say something and if it's a more formal setting or a large crowd It'll often be a sheet of paper in there You know, we'll put a sheet of paper say please write down Remember to this person that we can share with the family later Um, and again, I think it's just people need that space and time To acknowledge this this person who's been connected to them sometimes for a very short time and sometimes for Their whole life if it's a parent or grandparents

Annalouiza

I really like what you say about this ritual being needed. And I really would like to spread the good news that ritual is not necessarily a Christian or a religious process.

Never. mean, we ritualize any little quotidian activity and the loss of somebody can be ritualized without this kind of the hallmark of the ritual of religion.

Jane Ellen

Yeah, and I'm always very careful. I've done a number of funerals that if you don't hear calls me periodically.

you know, my question always is, was this person religious?

What did they believe about the afterlife?

Can they believe they're going home to Jesus?

Do they believe they're going to see their family members? I'm like, yeah, then let's celebrate. And if not, then we talk about how they're going to continue in the memories.

Not the love them and the stories that people will continue to tell about them.

Mandy Patinkin quotes a line, and I can remember where it's from, I can find it, that as long as someone on earth still remembers your name, the person hasn't, has not left this world.

One person who still knows their name. that is naming, you know, people and keeping those names and stories alive.

I'm actually working this week, what Kila was, I was glad when you expressed gratitude for our ancestors because my mom's father died when she was three years old.

So this man never lived to be a grandfather, but he was my grandfather. And he's always been kind of the shadowy figure, but I've been doing some genealogical work on him.

went to college, he taught school. I found his college yearbook with pictures of him everywhere. All the activities he was in.

And it was like suddenly this person who was just sort of a name has come to life for me.

And I've been putting together his story to share with my siblings and my cousins. We just always knew our parents would talk about daddy, daddy this, daddy that.

I interviewed my mom's older brother and sister who remembered him better. so I was weaving in some of their stories.

But it's just, you know, it's just seeing pictures of him as a young man and reading about what he did in college.

I think he was the age then of the students that I worked with as a chaplain.

And what again to sort of discover him and you know, what if his books that he used in college.

And I was an English major.

So you know seeing his notes around some of which has really been a gift. Oh, nice.

Yes. he died at 42, you know, he died. I hear. But yeah. around death or all around death.

Wakil

Okay.

Jane Ellen

Yeah. I um you know you might it might be tempting to say well it's that they didn't want to talk about death but they actually did.

We had um the students put together, the students of the Interfaith Club started talking about how the last week of there's all these holidays around end of life you know.

Saw one and all saints and all souls and Halloween and um so they started doing what they called Beyond the Grave week and they look at how different religions um deal with the afterlife and we actually brought in people to do a death cafe for one of those thinking you know students probably wouldn't come but we did.

We had students who showed up who talked about you know deaths that they had experienced. So um I guess that didn't answer your question because that wasn't really challenging.

Annalouiza

Well but the challenge is the assumption. The assumption that people are not going to be talking about death. And yet when you open up the door and create the space for it to be acknowledged, people will come.

Jane Ellen

Yeah. And another challenge was probably just, you know, pastoring students who had experienced a loss and the Counseling Center Director and I one year had a group for students who'd lost immediate family members.

Because they found that, you know, their friends would kind of be really supportive at the time, but then they go, oh yeah, my grandfather dies like, well, it's not the same thing as your father or, oh yeah, you know, it's not the same thing as a brother or I reached out to one of the students to let them know we were going to do this.

And she said, I just swept when I got your email because none of my friends asked about my brother anymore.

They think I should go for it. I will miss him every day of my life.

So being able to have some students in a room together who've experienced to close loss like that.

I think their peers were just uncomfortable with the death that was that close and didn't know how to respond.

Annalouiza

That's it right there, Jane Allen. I'm not certain that people are uncomfortable with a conversation as much as they don't want to say the wrong thing.

I've actually had calls from people, random friends who will be like, my husband's crammed their diet and he's really upset, but I don't know what to say.

I'm like, you say I'm really sorry. You just sit there with them if they need to be just acknowledged that they are going through this.

I think it's also helping people learn how to bear witness to a loss.

Jane Ellen

I tell people when I went into ministry, one of the most important things to learn was I can't fix everything.

there is enough. I'm not asking the question saying, I am so sorry. What can I need? I remember asking a friend years ago before I even went into ministry.

Her, I had had a close death and I asked her like, several months later how she was doing. She said, thank you so much for asking.

No one does anymore.

Wakil

Right.

Jane Ellen

I still need to talk about this. checking in, you know, if your first Christmas without this person, isn't this whatever, how are you doing?

They may not want to talk about it, but they may. Just the act of asking is enough. just haven't forgotten that you understand this is hard.

Annalouiza

Yeah.

Wakil

I'm glad you mentioned the holidays because I think this is particularly a time of year when it's important to check in with your beloved and your friends and say, are you doing?

And, you know, we miss, we all. miss this person and I was just saying I also think sometimes it helps to speak to what that person meant to you and just say oh you know I really miss that person too and I wonder how you're doing right now.

This can be a really tough time of year.

Jane Ellen

Yeah it is and it's almost you're expected to be happy right now.

Wakil

Right exactly.

Jane Ellen

And especially you know I had a student who came to me and my grandfather died on Christmas Eve. So it's a horrible time of year for me.

So again acknowledging that not anyone who's lost a love would might really be missing them around the holidays but especially people who've had a loss around this time of the year when Christmas is happy new year, happy happy and it's like no it's not a happy time.

Annalouiza

Right and just for our listeners we are recording as before the Christmas holidays. So that's why this is all part of it.

Wakil

Yeah, probably won't be live until after that.

Annalouiza

Yes, but I also wanted to, and I've been thinking about this because I'm hosting a solstice celebration this Thursday night, and I've been writing down the ceremony that I'm going be offering.

And I actually am going to create a small space here for people who could talk about their grief. And their grief, even like my refrigerator died, and it's just been so taxing, right?

And there have been losses for pets, and there's loss for hope around world peace. I mean, there's a lot of different types of grief that we encounter that we don't have kind of have conversation, not even a conversation.

I feel like people just want to be like, I'm really sad about this. And then saying, I see this, like, let's just sit here together, right?

this holiday. is also about loss because we've lost the light, right? Like it's dark. It's hard. It's cold. So I want to start also normalizing that the holidays at the end of the year are not all about happening at me.

It's about only both of them.

 Jane Ellen

Exactly. And it's a time, it's time that the earth needs.

It's time that we need when you stay indoors.

You know, you're not out doing doing doing, but you maybe stay in and do more reflection.

We need that time of rest as much as as the earth.

Wakil

That's rarely acknowledged in our crazy world that, you know, work harder, make more stuff, buy more stuff, you know.

Jane Ellen

All the lights light it all up.

Don't you know?

It's just there's so much beauty and darkness and it's such an important. mean, light would mean nothing if there was no darkness.

Wakil

Right.

Annalouiza

you know, joy would mean nothing with no grief.

Wakil

Yeah. So, yeah, we have a blessing in both.

Annalouiza

That's right. So how do you, how do you? What do you need to feel supported in your work? Because you continue to do a little bit of sounds like chaplaining.

Right.

Jane Ellen

Um, I mean, having my own support system, my own family, friends, people. I was thinking, you know, just kind of thinking about this conversation and end of life.

And like I said, I hadn't had too many end of life conversations, but there was a staff member who I had gotten to be friends with and I knew he was.

struggling with illness and some health issues and some faith issues and you know, they came in my office one day and said that this person had had taken his life and They needed me to go talk to his department and you know, was like, okay I got to get in chaplain mode and I just had to kind of set aside my own loss of this friend and You know someone who did know something of his inner life realizing.

Oh my gosh. What did I miss? happened? And And so being able to call my brother who's a psychiatrist in the evening and say this just happened to me What you know, I said what do I miss?

How did I not see this coming? Well, and to be able to have his His support and his counsel and you know what he said was this someone is determined to die by suicide.

They don't give you hints It's You know, they and so he said you didn't miss anything but but that that was important For me to be present to the the other folks who were grieving was to be able to have those people who would be there and let me do the same thing.

And I own lament and tears and questions. So that's one thing is just having that support.

Annalouiza

I am grateful for your brother.

Jane Ellen

I am too all the time.

we just lost our own mom in August at 94. She lived in her house, fought tooth and toenail to stay in the house. She and Dad built 60 years ago.

There's none of us living nearby. But we managed to. She had wonderful community. We got down there as much as we could.

all ended up being there with her when she died and celebrated her life and her birthday. She was three weeks shy of 94.

And you know, promise we'd tell everyone she lived to 94. Beautiful.

And it's brought on to that. She was 93.93 years old.

Wakil

Close enough.

Close enough roundup.

Jane Ellen

Yeah. Yeah. Just in that loss, just being able to be with each other. And, you know, we each have our moments and it's like, yeah, I was doing pretty well until this happened or I ran into this picture.

I remembered her saying this.

Wakil

so, you know, then sweet, party your family and help you through that. Yeah. But other resources do you have to stay centered and grounded and do the work that needs to be done?

Jane Ellen

I'm not sure how to describe my own faith right now because I was actually just in talking to someone about third act faith and how many of us have multiple religious connections.

You tend to think of younger people. not being a single path, but there are many of us who list, well, I was raised, yeah, it was like for me, I was raised Methodist.

I'm now preaching at a UU church sometimes. I'm always resonated with Buddhism and paganism. And so sort of my own beliefs and a force of good that pervades the universe, that energy of life that is through and everything, but traditionally we call that God.

Fine, that works for me. But just that constant presence of some good that even when you're going through loss or darkness or hard times, you know that there is life.

And that sort of, you know, I always talk about the evergreens in the wintertime, that when everything else dies off, you still have a little green, there is still like there buds, things will come back.

And so that sense of, I guess, a cyclical understanding of life. that you know it's not this uphill or downhill it's a things come up and down and they circle back around in that.

 Annalouiza

It's an ebb and flow.

Jane Ellen

Yeah I've heard someone say that the expression you should use when things are really good or really bad is this too shall pass.

Wakil

Yes.

Jane Ellen

We did just say it only when things are bad but even when things are really good just a reminder it's not how it goes all the time so enjoy it.

Remember it but don't expect it to be this way.

Annalouiza

Like you know it's uh I always call those my bliss bubbles and I literally I have a sensation that I'm in a and a like what are those like soap bubbles that anything can pierce it really quickly.

Yeah but in a moment of absolute sheer joy I'll be like I'm in the bliss bubble and I know in a minute because it's

Jane Ellen

For the image that I use a lot, I have a musical background and so a lot of my spirituality and things like that come more through music than through words.

Is a movement in the Brahms Requiem is the third movement and there's a passage where the text is the righteous are held in the hand of God.

Underneath the whole voices and instruments doing this whole big double feud, the string bass basses just play the same note, just this constant unwavering bass pedal to this whole movement and that there is that, no matter what's going on up here, there is that constant underlying.

You can't fall, they're through.

Wakil

Beautiful.

Jane Ellen

That hand is holding us there.

Annalouiza

I love that. Oh, so Jane Ellen, what frightens you about the end of life?

Jane Ellen

Hmm, good question. That this will all end. think that's, I was visiting a patient in the hospital once who said, you know, all of us want to go to heaven, but none of us want to die.

We like this life. like Earth. like what we have here.

At least most many of us do. I should not say everyone. know. I fear one.

Wakil

Yeah.

 Jane Ellen

But yeah, just having to lose all this, or leave all this behind. I have always sort of tried to use as a measure of how my life is going.

If I died today, would that be all right? Mm-hmm.

It's my soul in the right state, but have I done what I was to do in this life? I'm like, okay, you know, and if I felt like there was some lacquer.

No, no, there's this goal out there. haven't met yet. You know, and how important is that goal really?

Do I need to sink so much into it or so? Then how do I get there? But just am I living a life that I would be happy to leave? If I had to leave. I'm kind of excited to see if there's something on the other side.

Annalouiza

Mr too!

Jane Ellen

You're serious about it. I, you know, I have no idea. know, I, you know, tell people, oh, they say, oh, I'm going to be reunited with my husband, my, you know, I'm like, yay.

I'm back to tell us if that happens. But yeah, I hope so. hope that in some way there's a reuniting with the energy of the people who have been part of our lives on this Earth, but who knows?

Wakil

Right.

Jane Ellen

It knows. There's a real curiosity, you know, my Jewish friends say, nope, this is it. You die. life's out.

Who done? Well, my case, then better make the best we can of this time.

Wakil

Yeah, yeah, yeah every day every breath Yeah Yeah Well, thank you. This has been great. I think we're getting close to the end here Is there anything else on Louisa that you can think of or anything Jane Ellen that you wish we would have asked?

Annalouiza

Not on my end now this has been a rich conversation it has it's been delightful for me to listen to you Yeah, I enjoyed it very much So have I thank you Well, let's uh, let's end with a poem and every week we we offer little poem and we ask our Our guest if they'd like to share poem and Jane Ellen you brought a poem today And you wanted to read something as well from your mom, right?

Jane Ellen

Yeah, mom kept a journal And she had said something when she was still alive that indicated it would be okay for us to read them so Still plenty to go through but one of the ones I opened she

had this written inside the front cover. Motto to live by. Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body.

But rather to skid in sideways chocolate in one hand, latte in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming, woohoo, what a ride.

I don't know who that's from, it's not my mom, she's not a latte drinker, but otherwise that's pretty much how she lived her life.

We can all live that. Joyfully, that, I thought of that when I read this poem by Mary Oliver called, When Death Comes.

When Death Comes like the hungry bear in autumn, When Death Comes and takes all the bright coins from his purse to buy me and snaps the purse shut.

When Death Comes like the measel pox, When Death Comes like an iceberg between the shoulder blades. I want to step through the door full of curiosity.

wondering what is it going to be like that cottage of darkness. And therefore I look upon everything as a brotherhood and a sisterhood.

And I look upon time as no more than an idea. And I consider eternity as another possibility. And I think of each life as a flower, as common as a field daisy and a singular.

And each name of a comfortable music in the mouth, tending as all music does towards silence. And each body a lion of courage and something precious to the earth.

When it's over I want to say, all my life I was a bride married to amazement. I was the bridegroom taking the world into my arms.

When it's over I don't want to wonder if I have made up my life something particular and real. I don't want to find myself sighing and frightened or full of argument.

I don't want to end up simply having visited this world.

Annalouiza

Word. St. Mary Oliver, 

Wakil

Saint Mary. Yeah. Yeah. She’s such a beautiful writer and such a beautiful poem.

Annalouiza

Thank you for sharing that.

Wakil

I think part that sticks with me is the, I want to step through the door full of curiosity, wondering what is it going to be like, that cottage of darkness?

Annalouiza

And I was smitten with the next little paragraph. And therefore I look upon everything as a brotherhood and a sisterhood, and I look upon time as no more than an idea.

And I consider eternity as another possibility. So wonderful. Jane Allen.

Jane Ellen

Thank you much.

Annalouiza

Or as common as a field Daisy. and is singular.

Every person valuable, but every flower.

Well, thank you.

Jane Ellen

This has been a really delightful conversation. We appreciate the opportunity.

Wakil

Thank you so much. We really appreciate you. appreciate your work and your willingness to have this conversation with us.

And it lifts all of us up.

Annalouiza

Thank you.

Wakil

Well friends, we have a special treat for you in our next episode. We will feature several stories from our friends as memorials to loved ones they have cared for or accompanied through the death journey.

It is our honoring of the holiday of the heart of Valentine's Day.

Annalouiza

And we still want to hear from all of you. We know there are many poignant and moving stories and we are excited to share them.

You can email us at endoflifeconvo.gmail.com. 

Wakil

Till next time, much love.

Annalouiza

Adios!