Trigger Warning - Story of animals being put down by shooting
Annalouiza
We are so happy to welcome Kate Schuyler. She's an active student of life, the self, and the heart. She is a mother, grandmother, partner, and loyal friend. She is a world traveler, a hiker, backpacker, community volunteer, gardener, a poetry lover, and a musician, and singer. She has been a licensed massage therapist since 1982 and a member of the Sufi community since 1994. She has sung with the Portland Threshold Singers, an affiliated chapter of Threshold Choir International since June 2012, 11 and a half years ago. Thank you so much for being with us, Kate.
Kate
Thank you for having me. It's an honor.
Wakil
So great to have you with us. And the Threshold Choir has been something I've really been inspired by over the years. So I'm glad you can maybe talk to us about that. Let's start with our first question. When did you first become aware of death?
Kate
When I was growing up, we had several pets and animals as part of our family. And I think probably my first exposure was a hamster dying or a guinea pig dying or maybe one of our dogs. And I had a great aunt when I was in elementary school who was 104 and I never really knew her very well and she lived on the East Coast, but I remember when she died I was aware that I wasn't going to be sending her Christmas cards anymore or anything like that.
I think the very first, or I should say the most impactful experience with death was when one of our beloved horses had to be put down and I must have been in high school.
And my mom decided that it would be the most humane and the quickest to have somebody come. And I will warn people that this is a little graphic to come and have the horse be put down by shooting. So my mom and I were there. It's gonna make me cry. My mom and I were there. And this very kind man came and we brought her out to the lawn and he just shot her right in the third eye. And I was, it was striking. It was quite an experience for somebody who hadn't had direct involvement with watching another being die.
Yeah, so that was my first time.
Wakil
Wow. Yes, yes, I can feel that. Having watched a goat that we harvested at the farm go through that, there's a sense that this being is in front of you looking you in the eye, and we gave it its last meal. And then as it was chewing, we shot it in the head, and it just boom it was down, which was in a way beautiful, you know, that it just was done. One moment it was there and the next moment it wasn't. Yeah, but thank you for that story and thank you for your tears. We worship tears here.
Kate
Thank you.
Annalouiza
Yeah, I was going to say that too. It's thank you for being vulnerable in our little circle here.
So Kate, how has death impacted your life story?
Kate
It's had quite an impact and I would say, I think when we are in our earlier adulthood, often that is not the focus. We're raising children, we're starting our lives, we're all that. But I think having had several friends who've died, grandparents who've all died, you know, the next generation of aunts and uncles. I got to be with some of them and to think about how might I want to experience my end of life.
And the most touching was being with my mother when she died. She had a major stroke 10 and a half years before she actually passed. And so there had been a lot of adjusting within our family, a lot of different roles taken on by all of us. And we never quite knew how long she would last. And it was remarkable that she had a very full and fulfilling life, even after this major stroke. And when she got to the end of her life, she had been on hospice for a very short time, only a week and a half or something. And my siblings and I were all there.
We spent the afternoon. She wasn't really conscious, although she was able to give us an amazing gift. The last words she said were, I love you, to all of us. And she had mentioned a little bit before that she felt like her mother, my grandmother, and her husband, my father, were waiting for her.
Wakil
Hmm.
Kate
She was very calm, she didn't seem scared. And just watching her have this beautiful death and being able to be there with her was such a gift. And it made me think a lot about, how do I want to live my life? How do I want to end my life? And then following her actual last moment, which was just before 11 in the evening,
We realized we didn't have to really do anything until the next morning. So I was able to sit with her body throughout much of the night. I lit a candle, I put flowers around her head. I washed her hands and face and, and I sang to her and I talked to her. It was really beautiful.
Annalouiza
What a gift.
Wakil
Yeah, so beautiful. Thank you. Beautiful story. Yeah. We love these stories. Shat's so sweet and such a good example of what is possible and the kinds of things we might want to ask our beloveds to be there for us in the same way as possible.
So can you talk a little bit about your current role, your work, anything you're doing, but especially the threshold choirs, a beautiful, beautiful service to people at the end of their life. I'd love to hear more about that and anything else that you're working on.
Kate
Yes, I am honored to be able to share this. The Threshold Choir International was started about 24 years ago by a woman in California named Kate Munger. She had been sitting with a friend of hers about 10 years before who was dying of AIDS, and the seed for this work was planted then.
She realized during that time that she was pretty nervous. Her friend was in a coma. She didn't quite know what to do. She was an elementary school music teacher. So she thought, well, I'll just sing. That's something I know. So she sang to her friend and noticed that she was more relaxed. He was more relaxed, and the idea for this organization was birthed.
Fast forward 10 years, she started a group in the East Bay in California, near San Francisco, specifically women, because she felt like women had been the midwives of death for much of our human history. She wanted to just provide a place and a way for people to receive comfort and presence through song at bedside, at the end of life.
So now, 24 years later, there are over 175 chapters throughout the world, most in the US and Canada, but also in the UK, in New Zealand, in Australia, Mexico. I believe there's a chapter in Cambodia.
And the work of the group is to sing for people who are crossing life's thresholds, whether that be birth, death, sickness, struggle, growth, celebration, change. The focus originally was end of life and that still is the main focus, but we also honor all of life's thresholds. The Portland group was started in 2009.
I joined in 2012. And we also, we'll share that mission of course, it's we bring kindness through song to those facing life's thresholds. Once again, birth, death, sickness, sorrow, growth, change, grief, We just offer strength, love, encouragement, healing, peace, joy through presence and songs of comfort.
We are contacted through word of mouth mostly, although we do have several organized affiliations with hospice homes, with healthcare providers, oncologists, and yet often what we offer is individual care to clients who have heard about us and contact us. And we will go to their homes or to their adult foster care homes, the hospice facility, wherever they are.
Annalouiza
Mm-hmm. That is so beautiful.
Wakil
Beautiful. Yeah. Can you give us some ideas of what kinds of music?
Kate
Yes, most of the songs are written by members of all the different chapters, and they are quiet, for the most part, meditative, soothing, calming, acapella songs. They often address issues that will come up at the end of life, like who do I need to forgive, what do I want people to remember about me. Assurance that we wil remember them.
Even though our chapters may have many members, Portland has a particularly large population. We have probably 75 people on our roster, about up to 40 of those I would say are active. But when we go to sing at bedside to somebody, it's no more than three or four
So we will go in and offer these comforting songs. Once in a while we'll ask if somebody has a particular song and if we know it, we're happy to sing for them. That could be a hymn, it could be a spiritual, it could be a popular tune.
Wakil
You've told me that you've written some of the music that they've done. I remember that right?
Kate
Well, I have written one so far.
I wrote a song for my daughter when she was late teens, early 20s. She'd been going through a very hard time in her life. And I was inspired to offer affirmation and support through a song that I entitled, You Are Beautiful.
I just spoke to her about the fact that just being here was wonderful, she was loved, and encouraged her to claim her own voice.
Wakil
Beautiful. Thank you.
Annalouiza
Mm-hmm.
So Kate, in this venue, what are your biggest challenges around this project that you're in?
Kate
Yeah, I would say first of all that it is such an honor and a privilege to do this work. As somebody who's offering song, I receive as much as whoever I am singing to. And that is a great comfort and it helps sometimes with the feelings that come up.
Usually we are able to get into a space where we can say, here we are. We are here to honor and support this person. We're not bringing in our own feelings or issues. However, once in a while, something will get triggered. Something will come up. So the challenge is just accepting that might happen. It doesn't often, but it can. And adjusting and working with whatever response will get us back to a centered place. Sometimes the family members are having a harder time than the people who are dying.
That can be a bit challenging, but overall it has really been a seamless, joyful, and easy way to offer presence and comfort to people.
Annalouiza
So beautiful.
Wakil
I love that. Yeah.
Annalouiza
I did too. Oh, what a gift.
Wakil
So what helps you feel supported in this work or in life?
Kate
So we get to practice with each other, we get to debrief. We get to talk about what comes up. And it’s a really wonderfully supportive community. I would say that's where I get most of my support.
Many of us have been singing with the group for many years. We also invite new people in every year, so then we get an infusion of new energy and experience. Our director is very talented, an amazing songwriter. We use a lot of her songs in our work.
We have an incredible intake person who manages the calls and directs organizing, getting people to the clients, as well as two monthly rehearsals with the whole group. And then there are several weekly extra rehearsals that people can go to.
I also share this work with my own friends and family and partner and that is equally as helpful.
Wakil
Mm, great.
Annalouiza
I really do like that your community of singers can get together to debrief because oftentimes I have seen and or heard groups that don't have an outlet like this and it really kind of piles up in us, right?
Kate
It can.
Annalouiza
The moments that may be a little bigger than we thought we could hold and so I really appreciate that that's something you do in community and I hope more people can do it together too.
Kate
It's a really important part. We try to get as much information as we can from the clients before we go. And we have one person in the group who's called the anchor. The anchor is the one who kind of directs the singing. And often, if I'm anchoring, for example, I will go into the room and I will read the energy of the room. And then we have a list of songs prepared, but then we'll choose which song seems to fit the moment best.
We usually sing about 20 minutes to a client on average. Sometimes it will be a little shorter, sometimes it will be a little longer.
And that's probably three to five songs, depending on how long we sing any particular song.
And then after we have said goodbye and are outside of the room, we will have a chance to debrief with each other and check in to see how it went for each of us.
Wakil
Wonderful. I'm curious if there are men now singing in the group or if it's still all women.
Kate
That's a great question and that's been a topic of conversation for many years in many chapters. There are probably a handful of chapters in the international organization that include male voices or lower voices. Portland is still women only. We have ongoing discussion about whether to invite lower voices into the group, and we have not come to a decision about it.
Wakil
Okay, good to know. I mean, I'm kind of thinking about how this may inspire people to look into this. I know I'm inspired. I've been inspired for a while, but I've kind of not done it because of that. And I'm not sure that there's a, I'm not sure what the policy here in the Seattle area is.
Annalouiza
Yeah. And Wakil, you know, in Denver, we used to have, where I was trained, they had musicians come in. I don't remember many singers, but they had like somebody who played the harp, And I wonder if that you could play an instrument somewhere.
Wakil
That's true too, yeah. Well, we're going to be interviewing a Thanatologist, right, who is, is that a harp, a harpist?
Annalouiza
Mm-hmm. Oh, no, a Thanatologist is somebody who studies death.
Kate
But there are a group of people who call themselves music thanatologists who specifically play harp at bedside. We do not include instruments. We are purely a cappella.
Wakil
Hmm. Beautiful.
Annalouiza
Well, we need to find some musicians next, Wakil.
Wakil
Yeah, I think so.
Annalouiza
So Kate, what frightens you most about the end of life?
Kate
This is a great question. I was glad you sent them ahead of time so I could reflect a little bit. I think probably what frightens me most is that I won't have done what I had hoped to do in my lifetime. That there will be things unfinished. And that's something that's been coming up for me a lot recently is what do I want to do with the rest of my years? Hopefully those are numerous, but we never know.
And how do I want my life to have purpose. So it's been a good incentive to really reflect and look at that. I want to feel like I have done what I came to do.
Wakil
Mm-hmm. That kind of leads to the next question is how are you supporting yourself or how can you be more supported in that regard?
Kate
Well, I've gotten together for the last two to three years with a group of friends from our Portland Threshold Choir to read books about the end of life. And that's been very helpful, many books, both practical and more emotional, psychological.
I think just staying open as much as I can to really, even though this is still very theoretical and not at all kinesthetic and embodied, that I am going to die at some point and trying to really honor that, take that in and live my life as fully as I can until that happens.
Annalouiza
So how do you keep yourself resourced with the work that you do?
Kate
Well, the music itself is very supportive and affirming and centering. There's been lots of studies done about how music singing really is good for our health. It helps us cross the hemispheres in our brain and makes it a whole brain activity. So the music itself, I would say, is where I get most of my comfort and draw on those resources.
The personal friendships I have with other people in the group are very important.
I'll leave it at that for right now.
Wakil
Okay, perfect. Well, we're getting close to the end and we always like to end up with a question of what do you wish we had asked you?
Kate
I thought about this one too and I have not actually come up with an answer.
Wakil
That's good, we did our job then.
Well, we really appreciate you. We appreciate the work you're doing and that you're willing to come and share it with us, share with our audience this incredibly beautiful work.
We should have probably had you sing a song for us, but we won't make you do that. But yeah, that is really beautiful. And as I said, I've admired the threshold groups that I've met in when I was working in hospice and that kind of thing. And just really believe this is an important service and offering for people at the end of life. And as you said, any threshold that we might be going through. So thank you again so much.
Annalouiza
Absolutely, thank you.
Kate
Thank you very much for inviting me.
Annalouiza So as you know, Kate, we always end with a poem on our podcast, and we offer a choice for our guests. And today you have brought in Marva Lee Weigelt in a poem called After You Die. So please share your poem with us.
Kate
Here we go.
After You Die
By Marva Lee Weigelt
Just so you know
after you die
I will not wonder
why you didn’t do
your dishes or
how long it’s been
since you
cleaned your
oven or microwave or
mopped your floors
or why there were
dust bunnies under
the bed and
behind the door
After you’re gone
I will not wonder
how you could
have allowed the
piles of old mail to
accumulate or
why you saved so
many bits and pieces
of this and that or
why you weren’t
more goal-oriented and
well-organized or
why your refrigerator
contained so many
expired condiments
When you are
absent from all your
familiar places
I vow to avoid wondering
why you didn’t
eat less and
exercise more or
why you waited so
long to stop smoking
or drinking or
whatever else was
simultaneously
soothing and
deadly or
why you took
whatever risk may
seem to have hastened
your exit or why
you left so much unsaid
unfinished or
unresolved
I will only wonder
if you knew how much
you mattered to me
just as you are
as you were when we
met in our temporary
human disguises and
laughed in the
dressing room of the
world at how funkily
our skin suits fit
at times
I will wonder and
hope you knew
you were beloved
I will wonder when
we last hugged
and whether you
felt how our
heartbeats
converged
and our bellies
bumped like boats
and then we
both sighed
Annalouiza
What an amazing poem. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Wakil
So beautiful. I love it. I will wonder when we last hugged and whether you felt how our heartbeats converged and our bellies bumped like boats. And then we both sighed. So sweet.
Annalouiza
Hmm.
Oh, that's so wonderful. I just, everything about this poem makes me think of, of my, my fears about the end of life in that I'm always hoping I get the dishes done and my, my sock drawer is properly organized and it's not going to really matter.
Wakil
That's right. Absolutely. Thank you again so much and blessings to you and your work.
Friends, we wanted to end this episode with a sample of the lovely music the Threshold singers share with those who are grieving. The following piece comes from a song called "I'll Walk With You" written by Patricia Hallum, a member of the Portland Threshold singers...
[song sample]
Wakil
Thank you Kate and the Portland Threshold singers.