Annalouiza
Welcome to this new episode where we welcome Jill MacLennan. Jill is a certified death doula, a non -medical professional specially trained to provide holistic care for individuals in their final stages of life. She offers comprehensive support, preparation, and deep soul healing to her clients and their families, whether in person or through virtual sessions, as she works as a death doula and end-of-life coach.
Wakil
In her virtual practice, Jill helps people prepare themselves and their loved ones for the end of life, offering guidance and emotional support, regardless of physical distance. Jill is also the host of the Seeing Death Clearly podcast, available on all major podcast platforms. Through her podcast, she talks with guests and they share valuable insights and stories related to end-of-life matters, further extending her mission to promote understanding and compassion about this important stage of life. And of course, that's what we're all about here as well. So it seemed like a perfect fit to have Jill join us today. So welcome, Jill.
Annalouiza
Yes, welcome.
Jill
Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation because yes, being on another podcast that's about death as well does not come across to me very often. So I'm excited to talk with people that also talk about the same thing all the time.
Annalouiza
Yay!
Wakil
Beautiful. Well, we like to start with this first question. When did you first become aware of death?
Jill
So when I was a child, I basically lived with my grandmother and my grandfather. My mother worked all the time. She was a single mom. So, you know, I grew up with grandmom and grandpop. And when I was four, my grandfather died. So the last couple of years of his life, he actually, he had lung cancer and then it spread to his brain. And so he was, you know, getting care in the house. He had the hospital bed right in the living room.
And I remember a little bit about like him being there. I remember pushing his wheelchair through the living room, you know, trying to get him around places. And then one day I came home from kindergarten with my grandmother, she'd come and pick me up. And I remember walking into the backyard and the neighbors were back there and grandpa was lying on the ground. He had fallen, the neighbors came over to help pick him up. And then they took him to the hospital and he never came back. That was it.
Never saw him again. Nobody even really explained to me what happened. It just was kind of like he was there and then he was gone. And so, you know, I think, especially as I got older like I realized he had died, but I didn't realize until I was much older that not having the ability to talk about it with anybody or have anybody explain it to me or any of those things, I actually was like holding all of that still within me.
So that's really my first memory of somebody dying, but I didn't really even remember the death. He just kind of disappeared.
Annalouiza
Right, so this mystery.
Jill
It was a mystery for sure.
Annalouiza
And so based on this story, what is your trajectory in your life and how does death impact that story?
Jill
I think after that, I don't remember it changing me too much as far as like I wasn't, I know sometimes I talk to people that will say then I was terrified afterwards, every time somebody left, they weren't going to come home. I didn't have any of that. When I was a child, my grandmother and I used to go to a assisted living that was you know, pretty close by. It was a Catholic organization that ran it.
And so we would go and we would bring rosary beads and sing and, you know, do all this stuff, take people to church because there was like a little chapel there. And so I remember going into rooms that people were obviously closer to death. And my grandmother had told me even when I was in high school, that a lot of the other kids that would come with us would be really afraid. Even some of the adults would be really afraid to go in the room.
And here I was, you know, six, seven, whatever it was. And I would just like walk right into the room. I'd walk right up to people. And she had thought maybe it's because I was so comfortable around my grandfather, because I was always there with him. And, you know, they said even at one point he couldn't talk anymore because of the brain tumor. So he would like try to talk. And I was the only person that could understand him. They would eventually ask me what grandpop wanted. So she just assumed it was that.
Now I'm not sure. I think there was part of me that was drawn into this type of work, working with people that were nearing death. I just didn't know it at the time. I didn't even think about doing this work until I was in my 30s. So.
Annalouiza
And what is this current work?
Jill
Yeah, so right now I am a death doula and so backtrack a little bit. When I was in my 30s, I took care of my grandmother, same grandmother at the end of her life. And I lived with her and I was so grateful to have that time with her. But I realized, especially when she went on to hospice, how unprepared I was because you just don't get any, nobody talks to you about it. Nobody explains anything. The doctor just kind of sent her home and said she was gonna be on hospice. And thank God for the hospice nurses who were amazing. I'm actually still friendly with one of them. I don't know, 13 years later, we still keep in touch with each other because they were so helpful in explaining to me what was happening, that this was normal, this was natural, but it still was a very overwhelming situation because I was not prepared.
And at that point though, I had thought, maybe I want to go back to school to be a hospice nurse. But then I also was like, I see some of what the nurses do. And I don't know if I want to do some of that work. Thank God they're doing it, but maybe isn't for me. Plus I had a baby at the time. I owned a bakery. It was a whole different time in my life. So it took me about 10 years. And then I heard of a death doula and I was at a good point in life when both of my children were a little bit older. I felt ready to study at night after I was done working. I was like, it's fine. I could get on the computer. I could take my courses. I could do what I need to do. And I have been doing this work now for about four years. And like you mentioned at the beginning, it is non-medical. So it's really more the emotional support, the spiritual support, helping people and their families prepare and of course, educate really just about the realities of death and dying and grief, because we don't talk about it enough in our culture, right?
Annalouiza
right that's right yeah it's absolutely right
Wakil
Exactly.
Jill
And that's why I started a podcast, because I wanted to hear these conversations. And there was not that many out there that were really having the conversations that I wanted to be hearing and wanted to have. So I did it myself. Yeah.
Annalouiza Yay!
Wakil
Yeah, good. That's exactly what happened to us.
Annalouiza
Yeah, it really is.
Wakil
Same response. Why aren't we hearing this anywhere? Why are people so afraid to talk about this? Yeah, thank you. Can you talk about what your biggest challenges are in this work or in life in general?
Jill
Some of the biggest challenges in life right now are also about the career change because it's not easy to get paying clients right now in this work. And it also is that I really would love to do all of the work for free, you know, like I don't enjoy going out and trying to sell my services to people. And it's not because I don't believe in them. But it's that really, I mean, I would love to give it to everybody for free but that's not the way our economy works.
You know, like I'm not gonna get food for my children for free because I'm doing my work for free. So I'm trying to find that balance. But most people still haven't heard of death doulas. It's getting out there more and more, but I don't have people coming across to me because they searched the internet for death doula. It's happened once so far in four years where they said, oh, somebody told me I should get a death doula qad so I searched and I found you and I was like, oh, that's amazing. You found me.
Annalouiza
You know, it is really tricky too. And so I, I present as a death midwife and I've trained in a lot of different, areas like, you know, herbalism and Reiki. And so I have this, this like tool chest of things that I can offer. And so I go by death midwife and I meet dualas, and they're like, Oh, we are the same. And I'm like, so when I had my babies, I had my birth midwife who came and checked my home and made sure we had food and made sure the neighbors were all... Everything was set up by my midwife, but the doula came and would sit right next to me and would make sure that when things got really tough, she's like, oh, we've talked about this. This is the next step that we should do because it's the advocate for the person who was in process. And so I think when I explained to people like death doula -ing is about being present to the person who is transitioning different from a chaplain, a social worker, a nurse.
And the family could use a midwife, but the doula is just there to support the person with fears or anxieties or spiritual questions. And people are now paying more for birth doulas, so hopefully they will start paying for death doulas as well. So I hear you because I'm in the same boat.
Jill
And I think they will start paying for the services. And again, I mean, I've had people that have been happy to pay me for it if they know to find me. And the whole like difference with like the midwife and the doula thing, you know, I do find it interesting because it does feel like it's very overlapping where there's people that say they're a doula, people that say they're a midwife, it just depends on what language they want to use.
But when I was looking into this, I think the biggest thing that stopped me from using the term midwife versus doula was I had read an article that was saying a midwife is actually a medical professional. When it like birthing midwives, they're actually medical professionals, they can, you know, prescribe medications, they can do all these things birth doulas can't do. And so they recommended that end of life doulas don't use that term, unless they're a medical professional. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. So not saying you should change your term. I hadn't heard anybody explain it the way that you did. But I also, I had a midwife, but I didn't have a birth doula. So I never actually worked with a birth doula myself, partially because again, I didn't really know any now I feel like I know probably 10 easily. And when I had my first child, you know 13 years, almost 14 years ago, I didn't really know any where I was living locally, but now there are quite a few.
So I'm hopeful that doulas will kind of do the same thing, death doulas will kind of do the same thing that over time, people will go, oh, I need one of these because I've talked to other people that have used them.
Annalouiza
Right.
Wakil
Exactly, yeah.
Annalouiza
So what do you need to feel supported in your work?
Jill
I don't know for sure because I think part of it is I'm still figuring the workout myself. Like you said, I like to work with people who are dying, but I actually do like to work with their family members as well. I have worked with people that have already experienced the death of a loved one and I work with them around grief. And so I think sometimes the biggest thing that could really help support me in my work is me just also getting clearer over time as to what my work is, what parts of the work I really want to do what I'm good at. Because I also do Reiki as well. I do like shamanic healing techniques with people. I even do like trauma sensitive yoga and movement with people. So you know, I try to use other modalities as well to help kind of, you know, everybody.
But yeah, I think right now I don't know. I mean, I've had business coaches and I've had, you know, of course my death dual a mentor. I volunteer at a hospital now where I work with a really amazing palliative care team that the palliative care social worker and the doctors and you know, the chaplains, like everybody's just been so amazing and you know, educating me and helping me learn. And then I can support them because there was areas I didn't even know, you know, I didn't think to offer end of life doula support to nurses and doctors, because I assumed nurses and doctors would be great with death. And they're not.
Annalouiza
Yeah, that's true.
Wakil
Very true.
Jill
I had you know, the palliative care doctor, one day say to me, two separate times, like one time, like, can you talk to this nurse, her, you know, the patient died, she's really having a hard time, she's in the hallway crying, like we we can't calm her down. And I was like, Oh, yeah, of course I can.
And then another time it was a doctor who they were trying to really talk to the doctor about just basically stopping treatments. And the doctor kept wanting to give more treatment and the palliative care doctor was like, no, it's time we stop. And, you know, they were like, can you talk to them? And I was like, I feel a little intimidated because what do I know? And they were like, you know about death and like how it's okay. It's part of the process.
Annalouiza
Right
Jill
I had never thought about that before, until there was a need for it.
Annalouiza
Yeah, yeah. And Wakil, this is how you and I started talking about it because we had done our practicums and you saw that need, didn't you?
Wakil
Yeah, exactly. We started talking after I finished spending a year as a chaplain assistant basically for hospice and really noticed that one of the biggest needs was the people in the hospice staff needing it. Even the administrators, everybody involved in hospice on a staff level was really needing that support and needing somebody to hold them and...
and listen to them and be present for them. And of course, the whole hospice situation can be really stressful for people who are caring compassionate people but have to manage the business model. That by itself creates a level of stress that it really needs people to be able to listen and pay attention to. So yeah, I really, I agree that was part of why we started talking about this. So.
So what frightens you most about the end of life, Jill?
Jill
Right now, the thing that frightens me the most is dying while my children are young. I don't want to leave them with no mother. The death itself, I'm not afraid of, and I actually never have been afraid of death itself.
But once I had children, it just changed so much. I mean, people tell you that when you have children, it changes you, but you don't understand how much it's really going to change you. And so I think right now that's really my only fear is, you know, potentially getting sick, having them have to watch me slowly die sounds just terrible. You know, I don't want them to have to go through that. And I know I don't have control over it, you know.
I do the best I can, I take care of myself, you know, I go to the doctor, get my checkups, I do what I can, but I can't prevent it completely. As I get older, you know, I think, if I was, you know, maybe in my 80s or my 90s, I think actually, at that point, being kept alive too long is what scares me. I've watched people just live longer than they really should have in a state that is not really living. And I don't want that.
And I like to think that my children would make sure that doesn't happen to me or my husband or you know, whoever's around at that point. But I don't know for sure. And so that's probably my biggest fear. The death itself. I mean, it seems to me, it's probably not painful, right, the actual death.
The things that are killing us might be painful, but the death itself doesn't seem to be painful. And even though I don't know what comes after this, I'm not necessarily worried about what comes after this. You know, whether it's nothing, which is what my husband believes, we're just gonna like go out like a light bulb, and then that's it, there's nothing. Whether it's, you know, reincarnation. I mean, okay, sure, I don't really necessarily want to do this over again.
Annalouiza
hahahaha
Jill
But hopefully, if I do, I will have a nice reincarnation, you know, I think I would, you know, heaven and hell. I don't know if I believe that they're real either. But I mean, if they are, I think I would probably go to heaven. So I don't know, I'm not really worried about that part. It's really more the human experience of the suffering that can sometimes come before death that I worry about.
Annalouiza
Right.
Wakil
Sure, that makes sense.
Annalouiza
And so how could you feel more supported concerning this fear?
Jill
Having the conversation with my family, I do try to be very age-appropriately honest with my children about life and death and that ideally I'm not gonna die anytime soon. But the reality that I could get into a car after this phone call and I could die in a car accident it's going to happen to somebody today. Why not me?
Right? I'm not special. There's nothing that could prevent it from me being that person. And so I like to really make sure that multiple times a day, I express my love and my appreciation to my family so that if today was that day, they'd never have any doubts that I loved them and that I cared about them and you know, I don't ever want to leave the house or have them leave the house thinking that I'm mad at them and upset with them about something.
So I try to make that effort to not have that happen. And then of course, you know, the idea of the prolonged like life that is not necessarily living. I mean, my husband and I do have conversations. We've been having this conversation. And I think I've never really been afraid of death. So we started talking about this when we were in our 20s where I was like, if anything happens to me, do not keep me alive. Like, please don't do that.
And so we've always had this conversation. And I believe that he will do everything possible to make sure that my wishes are followed.
Yeah, I think just the more that we could have these conversations and the more that we can get everybody comfortable with death and dying and realizing that death is not the worst thing that could happen. Being kept alive for years sometimes, even months, in a bed where I can't do anything that I enjoy doing, I maybe don't know who people are. I mean, I don't want that.
That's not living to me just because my body's physically alive. That's not living. And I'm hoping that doctors will kind of start to understand some of that as well, because I understand that they get trained to keep people alive as long as possible, but I don't think it serves the people all the time. And we need to find that balance.
Wakil
So true, so true.
Annalouiza
Yeah. And I do love that it's conversations. I feel like conversations are gold. Like all of us just keep talking about this so that there is a comfort level with children and family and friends so that it's, um, it just, it flows and not just like stopped by technology.
Wakil
Yeah. And I think both Annalouiza and I have conversations regularly with our family. That's part of our shtick if you will.
Annalouiza
Practice or spiritual practice actually you know.
Wakil
Yeah. And we both also work with folks to create advanced care directives, which write all that stuff down and make sure people know about it. In a class that I give, I suggest that right after your birthday, you have a death day and you sit down with everybody and talk about what your plans are, what you really want to do, and has it changed since last year when you first talked about it?
So I've had that conversation with my kids who are now grown, and they, and I know Annalouiza's children as well, have kind of gotten comfortable with the fact that that's what we're gonna talk about.
Annalouiza
Extremely comfortable.
Wakil
How do you keep yourself resourced in the work that you do?
Jill
Resourced in what way? I just want to make sure I'm understanding the question correctly.
Wakil
Yeah, like how do you take care of your mental and spiritual health, I guess would be another way to put it. Take care of yourself.
Jill
Yes, that that totally makes sense. Okay. So.
When, before I became a death doula, I worked at a, and I still actually work there part -time, at a nonprofit where I was teaching a job training program to people who were unemployed or underemployed. Many were transitioning out of the prison system, were homeless, were in drug and alcohol recovery. So there was a lot of trauma that was, you know, coming along with my students.
And I, as a baker, thought, oh, I'm going to teach baking. And then very quickly realized that I was going to have to learn how to be a social worker. And I was going to have to learn how to take care of myself better. It pretty much really was pointed out to me by my husband when I came home from work one day and said, we might be taking a nine-month-old baby. And he said, OK, but also I think maybe you should probably start going to therapy and you used to really like meditating, why don't you try that again?
And I said, okay. And so I found a therapist, and I found a meditation center in Philadelphia, I live right outside of Philly. And so I started going to their Monday night sanghas, which were like an open meditation, and we would sit and we w ould meditate as a group, and then we would read and we'd have discussions. And once I started going back to it on a regular basis, then I really started bringing it into my daily life.
One of the things I did too is I stopped drinking. I didn't have a quote unquote drinking problem, but I would have a glass or two of wine at night, which led to me not getting up in the morning early enough to practice my meditation. And so now I have a regular practice that I've had for quite a few years where I get up before the family.
I do, it's kind of yoga. I've been a yoga instructor for 20-something years, but the last few years I've started incorporating more fluid movements, almost more like dancing Tai Chi kind of movements into the practice. I do that every morning. It's just, I need it, right? It's like, it's part of my being needs it. And then I meditate and I really need my daily practice.
Jill
Plus, I do try to take the time to do other little rituals. Like at the end of the day, when I take a shower, I try to really imagine just the water washing just everything off, like all the stuff. And when I am sitting with people, I have had people that I've talked to, especially when I'm volunteering at the hospital and I come in contact when I'm there for the day, I'll come in contact sometimes with like four or five people that are either dying themselves or their loved ones dying, or they just found out that they can't continue treatment anymore.
So they're dying soon, just maybe not right that second. And so after having some interactions that are maybe a little bit harder, I will cry, right? Like I won't cry there in front of them. But if I feel that it's like really weighing on me and it's really heavy and I'll feel myself starting to tear up. And in the past, I was always one of those people like I didn't cry, I would like push it all down. And that's where it stayed. And now I'm like, no, if I need to cry to let it out, I will cry to let it out, to express it out of my body. Because I do believe I mean, and if you practice Reiki, you understand this too, where it's just energy. And if I keep it in my body, it's going to cause problems.
So I need to get it out, whether it's moving or crying or...
Annalouiza
Singing, dancing.
Jill
singing, screaming, right? Whatever it is. Exactly the things that really just kind of like vibrate it out of your body. But I do them regularly, even on days when I don't feel like I need it, right? I basically just need to do it every day. It's like, you know, I've heard of people call it like spiritual hygiene, like you brush your teeth every day. I need to do my practices every day, because that's when I get the benefit.
And I've tried explaining that to people when they'll say like, I tried meditating and it didn't work. I'm like, well, it's one of those things where you need to do it regularly. It's not going to do anything for you. And it's probably not even gonna do what you think it's gonna do, even if you meditate regularly...
Wakil
Exactly.
Jill
But it's the practice of doing it that is the important part. That's when you see the benefits.
Sitting down one time and trying to turn your thoughts off, which is what everybody thinks, oh, I can't turn my thoughts off. I'm like, yo, I've been meditating now for many years. I can't turn my thoughts off either. Like nobody really can.
Annalouiza
Hehehehehe.
Wakil
That's right.
Jill
I get moments where...
Annalouiza
Right, slivers.
Jill
it'll be like, ah, very silent and then I'll be like, oh, I'm doing it. Okay, nevermind, there it goes. So yes, so I do have my practices.
Wakil
So true.
Annalouiza
It's amazing. I love it. I love so many of them because I do the same and I am just so pleased.
Jill
Oh, actually, one more that I want to tell you about briefly that, have you heard of the practice tonglen? I feel like a lot of people that meditate have heard of it.
And so, again, when I was working with students that were telling me, I mean, some of my students have been shot, they've been stabbed, they've had people right next to them get shot and killed. I mean, they have seen really tough things. And when they want to tell me about it, I want to hold the space to witness and to hear it.
And I was finding that I would like start to eventually shut down, like my body just couldn't handle it anymore. And so when I was at Shambhala one day, and we were talking about Tonglen, and I kind of asked my teacher a little bit more about it. And I started actually using it when I was working with my students in that when they were really telling me something that was just weighing on them and I didn't want to take it like it's not mine but I also want to be able to hold the space for them I really started practicing Tonglen and just imagining myself like breathing it in like just let me take it all in but then I'm breathing out the love and the light and not holding it and that practice has changed my life so much because I'll do it even now.
And it's not conscious now, I think, like where at first I had to actually stand there and listen to people and be like, breathe it in, Jill, and then breathe it out, breathe it in and breathe it out. Now, I don't have to quite do that. I could just visualize it a little bit. And sometimes if I'm with somebody that's really, they've got a lot of fears around death and dying, or if they're dying and, you know, they're completely nonverbal and I'm sitting with them I'll practice Tonglen and I'll just imagine myself breathing in their fears and their anxiety and their pain and their shame and their guilt and all the icky stuff. I'm just going to take it for them, but then give them love back because right, it's been very helpful.
Annalouiza
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I love that.
Wakil
Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah. There's a wonderful version of that that Joanna Macy wrote that recorded that we'll put it in the podcast notes just to give people an idea of what we're talking about. So beautiful. Thank you for that.
Annalouiza
Yeah, so one of the last things we like to ask our guests is, what do you wish we had asked?
Jill
I don't think there's anything that I wish you would have asked. I mean, I think it's been a great conversation. I love that the conversations just kind of flow and go where they want to go sometimes. So I can't think of anything that I wish you would have asked that you didn't ask.
Wakil
We did our job then. We're good. Really, thank you. It's such an honor to work with you and to look at what you're doing online. And we look forward to working again with you in the future and hearing more. So we'll have the notes, the podcast notes, we'll link to all your work. And thank you again.
Jill
Thank you so much for having me on, I appreciate it.
Annalouiza
Yes, thank you. So lovely.
Wakil
So we have a poem that we found. Annalouiza, you want to read it first and then I'll read it afterward.
Annalouiza
Sure.
It's Clarity by V. V. Francis.
Sorrow, oh sorrow, moves like a loose flock of blackbirds sweeping over the metal roofs, over the birches and the miles. One wave after another, then another, then the sudden opening where the feathered swirl illumined by dusk parts to reveal the weeping heart of all things.
Wakil
I can envision that.
I've stood out in one of the areas near here and watched the flocks of crows who sweep back and forth in the morning and the evenings.
Annalouiza
Yes, I have two!
Wakil
So I can just envision that beauty. Thank you. I'll read it one more time.
Sorrow, oh sorrow, moves like a loose flock of blackbirds sweeping over the metal roofs, over the birches and the miles. One wave after another, then another, then the sudden opening, where the feathered swirl, illumined by dusk, parts to reveal the weeping heart of all things.
Well, thank you again, and we look forward to continuing to work together to make this conversation something that more and more people can have. So thank you, Jill.
Jill
Thank you for having me today. It was definitely a pleasure and I would love to do the podcast swap. So I'll have both of you on my podcast one day.
Annalouiza
Yay! I will see you soon then.
Wakil
Beautiful. I look forward to that.
Jill
Yes.