Wakil
First, deep gratitude to all of you, our loyal listeners. We have finished our first season and are very excited to preview what is coming next with you. We wanted to begin by highlighting some of the most meaningful moments within our first 20 guests. Well, I'll start again. We wanted to begin by highlighting some of the most meaningful moments with our first 20 guests. In each episode, we asked questions that elicited a wide variety of compelling and profound conversations.
Annalouiza
We always started with, tell us how death impacts this story. We heard many experienced death in childhood with pets and close family, like grandparents and uncles who passed away, sometimes with little or no acknowledgment.
Wakil (00:52.7)
Yeah, it was always so beautiful to hear those stories and to learn from people how they experienced that, how it affected them. And especially the part about not being acknowledged. Often children are left out of the story or left out of the conversation. And that was very profound.
Annalouiza
It was, and it just really made me realize how, it's still so taboo to bring kids or, I don't know. It just seems like death is supposed to be for adults only. And it's kind of an ageist, you know, it's an ageist thought that, children can't handle it. And you think, you know, we can, and these folks did.
Wakil
Right.
Wakil
Take care.
Annalouiza
And it helped out that they finally had a chance to talk about these early experiences with death.
Wakil Yeah, I think that's so important. And it reminds us how important it is to continue these conversations with our families and with our younger people, especially. So that was really profound. I'm glad that we got to hear from people about that. We asked another question every time we asked about what their biggest challenges were. And often that one kind of riffing off of what we just talked about the challenges. One of the biggest challenges was the fact that there's this cultural disconnect.
Annalouiza Absolutely.
Wakil
with death that we observe in the United States, possibly in other countries as well. And just the inability to talk about this. And really that's why we're here, right?
Annalouiza
I know it's why we're here. We're trying to have a sacred space teaching everybody how it's done, showing you that it's, it's safe and it's beautiful and it's affirming. And yeah, in the U S especially, it is very difficult to have these conversations. Even me talking sometimes about what I love to do, which is talk about death and supporting people at the end of life. It really.
Wakil
Right?
Annalouiza
kind of makes people feel uncomfortable.
Wakil
Yeah, yeah, it's funny. And very much came over, I mean, and it came up a lot in our conversations that people really feel the need, especially if they've gone through this or they're working in this area of end of life. Yeah, they really feel the importance of having those conversations and of having the opportunity to understand what people are going through and to educate people about what to expect.
Annalouiza the field. Mm -hmm.
Wakil
that kind of thing. So those were some really important challenges and I'm glad we're doing this. I'm glad we've had this opportunity again to share so many beautiful thoughts around us.
Annalouiza
Absolutely. I just, you know, my, my hope is that by every one of you out there who listens to some of these conversations that you'll feel bolstered and better prepared to talk about death. Like whether it be a death of a loved one, a death of a forest, a death of a pet. There are so many different types of deaths that, and do you remember?
Patty Bueno, I will never forget what she said. The more we acknowledge those small deaths, the better prepared we are for the big ones. So.
Wakil
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that came up a lot. The idea that the endings losses are every day. We go through loss every day in one way or another. We lose, you know, we go to sleep and we die for a night, you know, or we wake up and we've lost a friend has left or we've lost a relationship, we've lost a job. There's so many little things that that we can be not only be aware of, but be grateful.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Wakil
for those lessons of the different endings and the losses and what those bring us is teaching so many good lessons every day. So yeah.
Annalouiza
Well, and with that, those lessons, one and another couple of questions that we asked is what do you feel? So what do you need to feel supported and how do you resource yourself? And part of that question for Wachile and myself, I think was like, as you encountered death in a profession or in your family, what is it that you, you could use in order to feel like you can better.
go into those spaces. And after that, how do you find a way to like, feel again, like you're connected, like you're, you're healthy and you're stable and you've got traction in your personal life. And so support and resources and almost a hundred percent of our guests talked about being in nature. Even looking out windows was a big.
Wakil
Right?
Annalouiza
kind of a filler of those spaces that were grieving. Like, how do you find yourself to be resource? It was always, I try to get outside. I try to be in nature. I try to like look at the outer world. So yes, that was a big one.
Wakil
Yeah.
Wakil
Yeah, and I think that's, you know, it makes sense because when we're in nature, we can feel that connectedness so clearly. We can notice the way nature works and the way things come and go. And, you know, winter comes and the rotting trees that create a space for the seeds to grow. And nature is just such a, an opening, such a place for us to feel connected and recognize and see the
the circle of life that continues even when things change and die and come and go. So it's the number one resource I think we discovered and I think it's true. I know it's certainly true for us. Both of us would rather be in the woods than anywhere else. In fact, I think both of us talked about that's where we'd like to have our bodies at the end. When we're done with these bodies, put us into the woods.
Annalouiza
Yeah.
It is. Yeah.
Annalouiza Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
That's right. It's the absolute exemplar of our connection to this world, I think. As you were saying that, I was just thinking about how I wonder if it resources us because neurally when we see the outdoors, even though our minds are not languaging the deaths, like the burnt shrubbery or
Wakil (07:08.7)
Yeah.
Annalouiza
the earthworms that died after a storm, it comes into our bodies and somehow we know that that's normal. Like this is death, right? And so when we go outside and we witness, we need support from a tree or the mountains or the clouds in the sky, every one of those are changing continually. And it gives us hope without even actually saying that. I really do think that.
I'm just starting to think that's probably why so many folks said I need to be out in nature. Yeah. So.
Wakil
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it creates a space for us. And it also, I agree, it's that mycelia, I love the idea of the mycelia that is actually part of us, that each of ourselves is a part of that mycelial network that is everywhere. And that there's that, you can feel that, you can literally feel that when you're in, whether you feel it consciously, whether you consciously recognize it or you just notice it.
Annalouiza Mm -hmm.
Wakil
I think that's what's happening with people when they're there in nature. They also said community and making sure, and the community of nature, of course, is kind of what we're talking about, right? But also your own, the people, the humans and the more than humans that are.
Annalouiza Yeah, right? Yeah.
Annalouiza
Right. Again, I mean, it's all connected, right? It's all these connections. It's like I need community and I need nature. And every single one of those is an example of connection. Right. Yeah. So.
Wakil
Absolutely.
Wakil
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And people spoke about their spiritual practice as well and being mindful and present. And I think, again, that's just ways to be, again, connection, right? Connection's the word. Find that connection. And when we go back up to the challenges, the way we can face our challenges is often by finding that presence and that connection and that mindfulness again. So.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Wakil
We had some wonderful conversations about that.
Annalouiza
We did. Yeah. I, as I'm thinking about all these, highlights, it's all the same, honestly, you know, right? Like it's connection is the big umbrella and it's connection with nature, connection with humans and connection with spirit or the presence of whatever it is that can support us through changes, life's struggles, the hardships, the sadness, the grief. So.
Wakil
Yeah.
Annalouiza
Wow, that was kind of an interesting way to get to there. Yeah.
Wakil
Yeah, yeah.
Wakil
Yeah, yeah, always again came up over and over and over again. And so, you know, it's a theme because all of us recognize that that's what we really need to stay resourced, even if we're not talking about death, just to stay resourced through the ups and downs of life. Right. So one of the other questions we asked, which had a lot of amazing answers really was what frightens you most about the end of life?
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm. -huh.
Yeah.
Wakil
And we heard many, many responses to this. Some of the main themes though, were not finishing their stories or their projects, not fulfilling their purpose in life or cleaning up their messes, forgiving. I think that was one we heard too, not forgiving and not being forgiven. They feared pain, painful deaths. Also several people spoke of being concerned about leaving their children behind.
Annalouiza
That's right, yeah.
Wakil
before they're ready. And the other one that came up a lot was that they had wishes that they had maybe written down. We talked about planning a lot, planning for the end of life and how you can write down your wishes and how important that is. But that even with those wishes documented and shared with their loved ones, that those wishes wouldn't be honored if they weren't capable of.
their own agency. So that's, that's a, yeah, what a play. I certainly feel that as far as my own end of life. I hope that my wishes are honored, but I can see how, you know, people who are my loved ones might not want to just let me go when I'm ready to go.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Annalouiza Right. And that's a really major issue that I've seen, having done advanced care directed plannings with couples. I have seen that sometimes in those meetings, one of the spouses is not OK with the choice that the other one is making. And it behooves us to really be honest about who can hold that charge.
Wakil
All right.
Annalouiza
to accompany you at the end of life, because if that's what's frightening you, then you gotta pick the right one. You know, right? Like, it's frightening. And the other part of it too was like people are afraid of being in pain. And that's one of the pieces around planning for your end of life. What is tolerable for you? Who will advocate for you and champion the agency you should have at the end of life?
Wakil
Right, yeah, yeah.
Annalouiza
That was really important to folks.
Wakil
Right?
Wakil
Yeah, that came up a lot and both of us have witnessed that in our work and, you know, where people have been force fed or, you know, these kinds of things where people are not being given the agency to decide or to, you know, even if they've made their choices, they're just not, those choices aren't being honored because of a need that we have or that the other, the people outside have. One of the things that really impressed me was that I've,
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Wakil
actually spoken about several times recently is that we feel the need to go visit somebody or to be with somebody who's dying. They may want to just be by themselves. And in fact, it's quite often the case that people hold on until nobody's in the room. They just want to, they want to let people get out of the room and be by themselves. Yeah, it's time for me to go, please get out of the room so I can go. Right. So we've seen that happen and that's,
Annalouiza
Right.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Get out of the way. Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Yeah.
Wakil
Again, a good example of being aware that, you know, who is this for? Is this for me or is this for the person that I'm in service to at the end of life? So, wow, really, really important.
Annalouiza
Very important. Something else that we learned was that I was captivated by and will just am so impressed, but people are brave. People are stronger than they can possibly imagine. People have overcome their fears, been right beside somebody who has been dying and still showed up in love and sweetness and mindfulness.
Wakil Yeah.
Annalouiza
presence of heart. I think that that's been something that every single person who's had a story to share with us that has deeply impacted their life. We're all brave. We are a brave breed, right? Like we show up.
Wakil
Right? Yeah. Yeah. There's more, we have more courage than we think we do, I think. And yeah, the courage that people, the courage that people showed in their stories and the stories about others and the other people's courage was so impressive. Yeah. What an.
Annalouiza
We do.
Annalouiza
Right. It is. Yeah. So the courage both in that last moment with a loved one and the courage to show up to practice and prepare for a good death. It is no easy conversation. It is not an easy ask when we are there planning our advanced care directive plans or if you've been.
Wakil
Yeah.
Annalouiza
given a terminal diagnosis and you have to actually think about the end. It requires courage for all of us in the room, right? And so it's a good practice to think about.
Wakil
Right.
Yeah.
Wakil
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Just that I encourage to be present with somebody who has lost someone or has lost anything to us dealing with loss and grief. And, you know, just the way those conversations can go. And we heard some great messages about how those conversations should go that we'll be spending more time with in our next season.
Annalouiza
So another item that I really found interesting throughout our conversations was that ritual is very important. And it's something that as, citizens of the U S we don't actually have a collective ritual to support people who are in transition, leaving this world or have left. But at the end of that is the possibility of having, a
Community grief ritual. It's so important those folks who talked about having places to be after a loved one has passed and how it really benefited them to go through this process to grieve and grieve and Grief wasn't like three days or a week and some folks actually said grief can be a lifelong process and every one of these losses is very unique and That is such a gift to actually hear that and know that
Wakil Mm -hmm.
Wakil
Yeah, and be aware and acknowledging that and accepting of it. And I really honor Analuisa's work. Analuisa does a lot of work with, you do a lot of work with end of life ritual and the ritualist that you, the practice of ritual that you participate in and that you work with is so important. So yeah, thank you for that.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Yeah.
Annalouiza
And it is, yeah. And you know, it just, it's so affirming to both the person who has passed and the people who continue. It's just, it's life affirming when you do a ritual. And, and so I, I would hope that more people would consider, you know, bringing ritual into their lives a little bit more.
Wakil
Exactly.
Wakil
Yeah, absolutely. And finding places through the podcast gave some good examples. There's a lot of resources that we've posted on our podcasts that can guide you toward any of these things we've talked about, but toward ritual or planning and et cetera. So we also noted that how important it is to express our love daily to the ones we love. Like, I love you Aunt Luisa.
Annalouiza Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
I love you Akil.
Wakil And you know, just make sure that everybody knows, everybody that's your loved one knows that you love them and that you care about them and that they're forgiven. You know, if there's forgiveness, that's so important. That there's something that needs to be forgiven. Get that taken care of. Don't wait, right? And.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Don't wait. And you know, that is actually something that comes up. I have been, in 11th hour hospice scene situations. And I don't know that you will be surprised, but it surprised me early on how many people were maybe hours away from transitioning. And I often got called to 11th hour, support because some folks didn't have families that were available to come in and sit and be with them.
But oftentimes people would turn around or roll over and look at me and just tell me a really hard story about something that they were really upset by and saddened by or they wish they had. And it comes up and you know it would be it would behoove us to spend time looking in our hearts and just cleaning house because it's important.
Wakil
Hmm.
Annalouiza
It really is.
Wakil It is, it is, it really is. Yeah. And we learned and we have witnessed ourselves that being with the dying is such a sacred moment. And being aware of death is actually a spiritual practice that we can all be a part of no matter whether we have spirituality or religion. It's independent entirely of that. It's really about that connection to the connection we talked about earlier.
a connection to everything. And that is the sense of the divine or the sense of the connectedness that that really death awareness and conversation around death can really become that connection, can really become that practice. And just that sacred moment with the person who is dying, somebody I noticed in several cases, people talked about the parallels between being with somebody who's born.
being with the birth and being with the death that they often have very similar energy around them. So yeah, I mean, it makes sense.
Annalouiza That's right. That's right.
Annalouiza Well, and the language, yep, the language can be really similar. And that's, I mean, I keep calling myself a death midwife because I can hold that space. And I used early on when I would tell people I do that, I was like, I show up, I have my herbs with me and I ask you to start boiling water and we get clean sheets out and we just sit and wait because you know, that's what we do. And we, we do, we breathe into that space.
Wakil (21:12.7)
Mm -hmm.
Wakil
Yeah.
Annalouiza Yeah, I just love that it is a birth process in some way. And you're birthing into a new iteration of whatever it is to be. Mm -hmm.
Wakil
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. People even spoke about the parallels between the labor of birth and the labor of death, that there's a labor process that happens. So we really, yeah, we really do. It totally makes sense. We're moving in and out of the life as we know it. So, and we're moving from mystery into life and back into mystery again. Wow. We had, we,
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
right.
Annalouiza
Yeah, gorgeous.
Wakil
We had folks talk about agency and we've already mentioned, you know, how important it is that people know what they want and that they're given that agency to choose. And, and that comes from the connection with their friends and their community. It's really one of the imperatives was to really have that connection and really talk to people about this and really make sure everybody in your community and your family and your friends knew what your wishes were and, and to have them there with you.
Annalouiza Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Annalouiza
Right. Yep.
That's right. So agency almost now to me is equivalent to conversations, right? The more agency you want, the more you actually have to talk about it with people because we're not mind readers. Like, you know, we don't know until you tell us. And I think that that's, that's empowering to, to tell everybody. If you really do feel strongly about having something at the end of life or honestly about anything you have to art.
Wakil
In the end.
Wakil
Yeah.
Wakil
Yeah.
Exactly.
Wakil
Right.
Annalouiza be articulating it to your loved ones or to your doctor or to your mentor or whomever because nobody knows until they know.
Wakil
Yeah.
Wakil
Yeah. Or all of the above, right? Say it loud, say it clear, write it down, pass it around. Yeah. And do that on a regular basis too. You know, do it, don't just do it once and leave it. We also talked about many times the fact that things change over time. You might create this, this wishes your five wishes or your end of life ideas and your advanced care directive or whatever. And then.
Annalouiza
Yeah, just say it loud everywhere. That's right.
Hahaha.
Annalouiza That's right.
Annalouiza
Mm -hmm.
Wakil
a few years down the road, even one year down the road, it could be completely different. And yeah, things can change. The people who you thought might be able to support you might no longer be able to support you for whatever reason. So really being aware of that and being willing to not only be communicating with folks, but continuing that communication on an ongoing basis and keeping that alive and dynamic. Yeah.
Annalouiza
X things could change.
Annalouiza Right.
Right. Well, and I actually pose that when I do my advanced care director plans with people. And in my little booklet, I actually say this is a living document. And what that means that it grows and it expands and it narrows sometimes. Depending on who you are, we change all the time. We learn new things and decide some things are still valuable. Other things are not so valuable. So having the ease.
Wakil
Yeah.
Wakil (24:33.5)
Exactly.
Annalouiza
And entering into this living document and changing whatever it could be. you know, just it's okay. Nothing is, is forever and static. You need to just expand it as you breathe in and out with what your values are changing or doing.
Wakil Yeah.
Wakil
Yep, exactly. Yeah, and I mean, in the class that I do about called Before You Go, same thing for all of the things that you think about that you can, the checklist that you can go through to say this is what I need to have in place before I go. It needs to be reviewed and it needs to be dynamic. And so yeah, that really matters. So great. Yeah, this has been a great season. We've learned so much. We love all of the people who have joined us and we...
Annalouiza it does.
Wakil
Want to have more people? Yeah. For our upcoming season, we will be introducing our new website, which will put the URL in our podcast notes and you will be invited there to subscribe for some expanded content.
Annalouiza
Delightful.
Annalouiza
Yes, so this expanded content is for paid subscribers who will have access to video conversations like this one. We'll go deeper and explore themes that have arisen in our podcast. Kind of what we talked about today. We'll just be expanding on some themes that we find. We'll be offering short classes on end of life planning and continue to demonstrate how to hold these conversations with those who are processing their end of life journey. These conversations will benefit both.
those who are transitioning, and those who are companions to the dying. We will share what you might encounter as the witness to the end of life.
Wakil
And of course, our audio only podcast will continue and we already have many excellent and compelling guests lined up. And we want to hear your stories. You can contact us via email at endoflifeconvo at gmail .com. That's E -N -D -O -F -L -I -F -E -C -O -N -V -O at gmail .com. And we'll start again with the free audio episodes on August 7th.
Annalouiza
And so thank you again for listening and please spread the word for us as we begin this new season together. Adios.
Wakil
Adios, much love.
