Episode 4: The One with Spiders, Wood Elves, & Barrels

We're back for more with Episode 4! Kritter and Jessica dive right back into chapters 8 and 9 of The Hobbit this week and all that that entails. We finally enter the ominous Mirkwood with our intrepid party and, if that's not bad enough, then we're faced with spiders. Like, a lot of them! Listen along as we chat about this and more; what it means to be brave, what it means to have a judgy narrator, and when to be nice because someone's trying to save you! These and more in this episode!

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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.

Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix

Transcript

Kritter: 0:17

Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, Kritter, and I'm your host Jessica, and we're kicking off this adventure with the Hobbit by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.

Jessica: 0:37

And me as a Tolkien first-timer In this our fourth episode.

Kritter: 0:42

We're going to discuss chapters eight and nine of the Hobbit Before we dive in. Jessica, how are you feeling?

Jessica: 0:50

I'm a little worried. Oh yeah, I'm a little worried about our party.

Kritter: 0:55

Yeah, because at the end of the last chapter they plunged into Mirkwood.

Jessica: 1:01

Yeah, they've been through some stuff.

Kritter: 1:04

Yeah, they have To say the least. Okay, so let's dive right in Chapter eight flies and spiders. If that isn't a menacing chapter title. I don't know what is. So. Tolkien gives us a lot of detail about what this forest is like. Was there anything that stood out to you before I just started listing stuff.

Jessica: 1:28

Yes, so one of my favorite quotes for this chapter is right at the beginning. Their feet seemed to thump along while all the trees leaned over them and listened. I loved it and also was freaked out by it all at the same time, because it felt like a thing that could actually happen, that the trees could lean forward and listen to you. Yeah, and then the other one was that the forest was described as everlastingly still and dark and stuffy. I don't know about you, but I have been in parts of forested areas here in New England where sometimes the trees are thick enough that really a breeze can't get through, and have felt stuffy like that, and it's almost a little cloying and claustrophobic a little bit. So again, very descriptive, very effective.

Kritter: 2:24

Yeah, he said that they grew to hate it more than they hated the goblin tunnels, and to me I was like, hmm, I don't know, I don't know about that. But then he kind of sold it honestly because, yeah, that sounds like it's claustrophobic, it's stuffy and it's not just dead right, because other than the goblins and the tunnels, it's just rock right, or maybe water. But this is like the I wrote down. When they lit fires at night it brought hundreds of eyes gleaming. First of all, nope it also.

Kritter: 2:56

I thought it was interesting that it said the cobwebs everywhere, which gross, didn't extend over or onto the path. That felt significant to me just because it's you know what's.

Kritter: 3:07

First of all, the chapter title is flies and spiders. So like let's stay away from the spiders, thank you. The bill bow noticed a bunch of eyes, generally off the path Insect eyes, but much too big was another thing that I was like no, no, thank you pass. So even just right at the beginning I feel like not always do we get like upfront tons of description in these chapters. You know, a lot of time he kind of just weaves it into what's happening. But I feel like in this chapter particularly, he's like no, we're going to sit down and I'm going to tell you about how absolutely miserable it is to be in this forest.

Kritter: 3:44

Yeah.

Jessica: 3:46

And I want you to be terrified and I'm going to have your biggest ally leave and say in all caps don't leave the path. And I'm going to show you all the reasons why you should be terrified and stay on the path.

Kritter: 3:59

Right. So the path, stay on the path. The path is good. We like that, we like the path. So on the path they encounter a black stream, which Beorn did warn them about. Don't drink it, don't even touch it. The bridge crossing it was rotted and gone. But Bilbo spotted a boat on its other bank and thank the light, or that would have been the end of the trip right there, no solution. So they managed to get the boat back to their side with a little teamwork involving Fili, Bilbo and a rope, and they cross the boat in force, except Dwalin and Bombur. They go last. Bombur protest that he's always last, and Thorin tells him he shouldn't be so fat and he tells him something bad will happen to him if he starts grumbling against orders. So that felt really mean and kind of intense to me. How did you feel about this whole boat sequence with Thorin and Fili and Bilbo and all of them?

Jessica: 4:55

I felt like. First off, they're already several days deep into the forest, which is not. I know I really don't want to spend all the time comparing to the story as I've seen it represented in other media, but I feel like that's kind of glossed over how long they've been trekking and how many

Jessica: 5:14

days. They're in this very ominous forest right. They've been here for days. But I will say that the book it's probably the one area I think I found that it holds up the least is the casual fat shaming of Bombur, and I do understand that it's probably meant lighthearted, but in today's day and age I don't think it would ever fly Right. Yeah, to me it's like. And then you add on top of it Thorin, being like don't you belly ache, or else you'll pay, something bad will happen.

Jessica: 5:56

Yeah, like yikes, I don't know it's kind of bad, but I think that tensions are running high. So that's why I brought up they've already been in this really creepy forest for days and that supplies are running low, tensions are running high. Yeah, the last thing they need is this squeaky wheel. I don't think that that's a good leadership technique.

Kritter: 6:17

I was going to say he's supposed to be their leader, so what?

Jessica: 6:19

are you doing?

Kritter: 6:20

Thorin. But you know, I guess dwarves are a little gruff. You know rough around the edges, maybe more than your average other leader.

Kritter: 6:30

But, yeah, this made me mad. Basically, Thorin being super mean to Bombur, Bombur and Dwalin, they could go first, you know, even if they need to only go to and about for practical reasons like why do they have to go last? It's mean Right? So, anyways, so they, they'd all crossed. And then a quote flying deer came upon them and knocked Bombur into the stream. So when I read flying deer, I pictured an actual flying deer. I realized now, though, that flying might have meant running. What do you think this was?

Jessica: 7:04

So I think I had the same moment. I think that I have been reading a few too many high fantasy books and I was like flying deer. And then when they started, it wasn't until they talked about how the deer essentially knocked Bombur over.

Kritter: 7:19

Yeah, yeah.

Jessica: 7:22

And I was like, oh, that's just fanciful wording, for they were going so fast.

Kritter: 7:27

Yeah, it was flying, as in fleeing it's like. It's like it. Well, never mind, I don't want to, I don't want to skip ahead, but there's another moment in movies where somebody says fly, when I think they mean flee. We don't talk about that, although I know you've seen movies but still only a million times.

Jessica: 7:45

Yes, we'll save that moment. I did make note of the deer, though, when they spotted it, because everything had just been talking about how nondescript and dark and stuffy and everything was, and the deer was the first living creature that they had encountered. People had made a point of telling them that, like you won't find anything worth shooting at on the path.

Jessica: 8:11

Yeah, this deer interacts with them on the path. I can tell you that, based on my notes all going into this moment, I was like is the deer a red herring of some kind? Like, is the deer real?

Kritter: 8:23

Yeah, no, I had the same thing, like what's going on with this deer?

Jessica: 8:27

Immediately suspicious, like why is there a living thing interacting with them when they were told nothing living would be on the trail? So was it real or was it somehow, magically, the forest was taunting them and then, not a matter of minutes later, the deer went by them again and they used up their remaining arrows, so now they have no arrows left to defend themselves. So to me, in my heightened sense, I was like this was intentional. Somehow the forest did this to taunt them.

Kritter: 9:05

Yeah, I just feel like that. I guess like the first deer, the hart, I guess they call it, which I assume meant buck the first year, Thorin got right and it died. But it died on the other side of the stream and, based on what happens next, they can't go get it, which to me is like so sad, so depressing. Such a waste, this beautiful animal, is just going to lie dead and presumably get eaten or whatever. And then I also wanted to mention that they did see these little black squirrels everywhere, like there were black squirrels, but that was like the only living thing that they saw other than like the eyes on the outside of the path. It's creepy.

Kritter: 9:42

But yeah eventually, they do try to eat the black squirrels. I don't know if it's before this or after this, I can't remember, but they're not Turns out they're just not.

Jessica: 9:49

Yeah, it doesn't go well.

Kritter: 9:50

Yeah, it doesn't go well at all, so they're worthless. Um yeah, so Anyways.

Jessica: 9:57

And then poor Bombur somehow gets essentially knocked into the water, which induces him into a magical sleep, which I guess we shouldn't say poor Bombur, right, because all appearances he seems to be sleeping happily, with a small smile on his face. So I guess lucky Bombur is what I should say.

Kritter: 10:17

He got the better end of the deal, I think, than all the rest of them.

Jessica: 10:21

Except then they had to carry him, and there's more grouching about how big he is.

Kritter: 10:26

Yes, that yeah, which got a little annoying, but so eventually, eventually, after again we're talking days they are in this forest forever. So Bombur's asleep for a very long time and then he wakes up. But when he wakes up he finds out there's no food because they literally they like, imagine everybody has a big pack and by the time Bombur wakes up the packs are emptied, so like that's how long they've been in the forest, even though they've been rationing. So he finds out there's no food, weeps and laments having been woken. So yeah, he was having a much better time of sleep than awake. He was having an amazing dream of a feast and a Woodland King and Thorin cuts him off, not wanting to hear about dream food, telling him that if he hadn't woken up they would have left him and his idiotic dreams in the forest because he was quote, no joke to carry. This once again felt really cruel to me and like this whole sequence of the forest made me dislike Thorin like kind of a lot. I don't know. How are you feeling about him?

Jessica: 11:27

right now. No, agreed. So between the beginning of the story where he was giving real politician vibes. Now, you know, the team is actually hitting some really hard times and that's when, as a leader, you're supposed to be at your best. And nobody's perfect. Yeah, nobody's perfect, but it doesn't seem like Thorin's really set up or executing like the leader that he's been portrayed in my mind for years.

Jessica: 11:56

Yeah, I agree so there's a little bit of a disconnect there for me. You know that Thorin is a figure to be who was admired and would be followed, as you know, the prince, the young prince, and that is not what we're seeing, at least not yet in the story.

Kritter: 12:17

Right, I agree, and I do wonder if it has something to do with the fact that they're dwarves, like maybe that's just a different style that they have, but I don't love it personally. Yeah, so yeah, not a big fan at this point. Did you have something?

Jessica: 12:36

I did so by the time we got here and Bombur's waking up and talking about the Woodland King and the Merry Feast and they had heard disquieting laughter throughout the forest. I have notes here going. This is giving me such fairy vibes. So different types of stories that I've read over the years talk about like if you're in an enchanted wood, you know you stay on the trail, otherwise you might get lost and the fairy might take you.

Jessica: 13:03

And that could mean all kinds of different things, but I was like this is just huge, huge fairy vibes Hearing random laughter, seeing random lights, all of it off the path, and then they're going to chase it and it disappears. It feels a lot like especially the way the fairy were portrayed in some Arthurian legends that I've read over the years. It just really reminded me of that.

Kritter: 13:33

So I haven't read a ton of books with fairies LOL, I did read ACOTAR, but they're a little different than like what you would expect from fantasy fairies To me. I literally wrote this is giving sirens to me because it's like, although I have heard that fairies actually have like lights and stuff, so this it does feel, you know, based on what I've heard I haven't read, but it does seem fairy, but it's literally like these, like attractive, you know alluring figures or whatever, in this case lights and food and merriment off in the distance and they just want you to get off your ship and go to them Right, and it's like the ship is the path, stay on the dang path.

Kritter: 14:14

And they just don't. Yes, just stay on the path, guys. Yeah, and they don't even stay, like they don't even leave one person on the path. They're like you know what One of us should go? No, we should scout it out. No, that's crazy. Maybe we should just stay on the path. Absolutely not. Let's just all go, and they all go.

Jessica: 14:31

It's legitimately what I wrote I'm like. So not only did you not stay on the path, but all of you all of you just as a group left the path.

Kritter: 14:42

Where's the sense Like yeah, yeah.

Jessica: 14:47

So the other thing that I had here. Oh, there's a. I made a comment about the omniscient narrator, so here, during this part of the story.

Jessica: 14:57

First off, the narrator says if they had known more about it and considered the meaning of the hunt and the white deer that it appeared, they would have known that they were at last drawing towards the eastern edge and would soon have come, if they could have kept up their courage and their hope, to thinner trees and places where the sunlight came again. So two things right. One, the omniscient narrator, but also the omniscient narrator who's like? Of course, this is incredibly obvious. Everybody would know this, except how would we? How would we

Jessica: 15:28

know, this narrator, okay, and then, once they have Bilbo, go up the tree to try and scope out their situation. You know he gets. I loved the description, first off of the wow, my brain just stopped full stop. Butterflies, Butterflies. Thank you.

Kritter: 15:50

You're welcome.

Jessica: 15:53

Wow, that's okay what happened so the purple emperor actually black emperor butterflies, I thought that was very, very pretty very interesting, and I had written that you know Bilbo's gaze as much as he might. He could see no end to the trees and the leaves in any direction. And then the omniscient narrator goes on to say that if Bilbo was a little bit smarter than he would have realized just how close they were because of how tall the tree was versus just that, and the other thing, and I'm just like that sounds like he rolled a crappy survival check.

Jessica: 16:31

That's what that sounds like. But also, can you cut Bilbo some slack? He's never left the shire. So, you know, be nice, play nice.

Kritter: 16:41

Well, I mean, it's not even Bilbo's fault too, because, like the narrator's like okay, and then they start heading downhill. And then they're like Thorin gets the idea to send somebody up a tree. So it's like I mean, granted, I guess you could just have gone downhill, but what if you are in a valley? Nobody's going to consider that for one second. Like yeah, it was frustrating. And then I like how they were all really jealous of Bilbo, like talking about the nice breeze and the sky and the butterflies, and they're like literally could not care less about this, like move on. Yeah, so poor guys, they were not smart, like this whole sequence. They were just, and I get you know, starving, desperate, claustrophobic, upset, whatever you know. But man in all caps, you got told to stay on the path twice Multiple times.

Kritter: 17:31

Listen up next time. Okay, so we're entering the spider part of the chapter. This was hard, yeah. So first Bilbo wakes up, as so, by the way, whatever, bilbo went into the circle of one of these fairy elf circles. He fell asleep, right.

Kritter: 17:52

So you know, this is a thing that happens and then he gets separated from all the dwarves when this happens again. But he decides, you know, he just has to sleep because he can't, he doesn't know where they all are and there's nothing to do it at night. Doing it at night is stupid. So he falls asleep and he wakes up and there's a great spider trying to wrap him In a web, like first of all, (disgusting sound) so anyway. So he fights back, manages to kill it and then falls unconscious. You know, relatable. So when he wakes back up, he's bolstered by the fact that he managed to kill a spider all on his own. He felt a different person, fiercer and bolder, and decided to assign a name to his sword Sting. This was a little, I don't know. It was like a heartwarming little sequence after a lot of gloom. Are you similarly bolstered? Much like Bilbo.

Jessica: 18:48

I am. But also I think that it's important because, to your point, we had discussed it in last week's episode that Bilbo doesn't get taken seriously, and I think that part of that stems from Bilbo doesn't take himself seriously, and that's okay. And do I want to see Bilbo become a murderer of spiders or anything else? No, yeah, okay a little good, thank you. To be a small person, but to feel fierce is a very empowering thing.

Kritter: 19:20

Yeah, small but mighty. I loved it. I don't know that I would have called the sword Sting. It's never been my favorite sword name. Whenever you compare it to things like Goblin Cleaver and Foe Hammer, you've got Sting. How do you feel about the sword name? Are you into?

Jessica: 19:38

it. Oh, I like it better, I like how you know, Orcrist, goblin, cleaver, foe hammer, all very, I want to say, like uppity. But they all sound like big people swords. You know what I mean, and I think that Sting fits the Hobbit way. Okay.

Kritter: 20:01

I can see that I just feel it's very on brand for his experience.

Jessica: 20:07

It's not a mighty sword for a mighty person who does mighty things, but it is his.

Kritter: 20:14

That's a really good point, alright. So Bilbo searches for his friends, ring on, of course, and comes across the following A place of dense black shadow ahead of him, black even for that forest, like a patch of midnight that had never been cleared away. He drew nearer, he saw that it was made by spider webs, one behind and over and tangled with another. Suddenly he saw too that there were spiders, huge and horrible, sitting in the branches above him. Also, they were talking about how and when to eat the dwarfs. How did this make you feel I hated it.

Jessica: 20:55

Terrified. Again. It's a different setup than what happened in the movies, but more subtle and therefore that much more terrifying. So him just casually waking up to being wrapped up.

Kritter: 21:14

Terrible, terrifying.

Jessica: 21:18

And him coming across them in the way that the place was described. All of it just very, very well done. This was very unsettling to read. I can't think of a better way to describe it than just a very unsettling read. I don't really think of myself as somebody who's really scared of spiders, but this was a lot.

Kritter: 21:42

Yeah, I would say I hate spiders. I do not like they creep me out. I've interacted with them. If I have a little one that's on the ceiling, I'm not going to be like I'll just live with him. But if there's big ones and they're coming towards me, then I'm like okay, death to spider. Let's figure this out.

Jessica: 22:00

So I'm somebody that does. I want to go to Australia and New Zealand, but the spider is huge, they're huge, they are huge. They've had to catch them in tubs. It's anyway. It's not the point.

Kritter: 22:16

Stay on task, well, I have to say one more thing that's mildly on task, but I gifted the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings to my sister, who does not read for pleasure. She barely made it through Harry Potter when it was the thing to read. She did her level best but stalled out super hard once she got to the spiders and I feel like you know that's kind of fair. It was a hard read.

Jessica: 22:45

I thought that it was, I don't know. I guess at some points I get to a place where I kind of flip a switch in my head and I'm reading for appreciation of how challenging it is to tell this in a written media form as opposed to seeing it on screen, Because I can't escape that. By and large. A lot of the media I consume now is visual video. So you know, I think that's a good thing to do so.

Jessica: 23:11

you know, at some points during the read I'm just like wow, that's like I have goosebumps. Holy cow Eliciting I get really into it because I'm really appreciative of what a good job the storytelling is doing.

Kritter: 23:26

Yeah, for sure.

Jessica: 23:30

I definitely made note about Attercop and Tomnodd y. Okay, I did too. Yeah, so, and this is also a coping mechanism, so some things like really horrible. I might look at one. I might hyper fixate on one particular detail. One of the things I love about being a fantasy girlie is that I love when they give us their own nomenclature. I love when they give us their own slang, their own name calling. They're all of this to that and the other thing. The other thing that was so much fun is Attercop. Again, I'm on an e-reader, I'm on my Kindle, so I highlight a word when I don't recognize it, to see if maybe you know this is just a very English word and I'm not familiar with it because that's a real thing, that happens sometimes. So when I got to the part where he is taunting the spiders by calling them names and it gives us the term Attercop and Tomnodd y, I highlighted them to see if the Kindle told me anything. Did you know that Attercop is an actual extinct genus of arachnids, of spiders?

Jessica: 24:42

I looked this up too, okay, so I did after I looked it up, yeah, so I thought that that was wild, and the other thing is that they seem to have so the way that Wikipedia told me so I'm taking no credit for this information Kindle gave it to me that it's an extinct form, an extinct genus, excuse me and it's thought to be close to the origin of spiders and they had like a little tail, so they just count. So, on top of being a slander, it's an evolutionarily appropriate slander.

Kritter: 25:21

That is so. Did you so? Tomnodd y is apparently an English word for a foolish person like an old old English word.

Jessica: 25:29

No, I did not. So thank you, because I was like what the hell is the Tomnodd y?

Kritter: 25:33

So I looked it up yeah, and that's what it said. But it's also super fun fact, it's also the name. The first thing that popped up is it's the name of an American bubble magician from the 1980s. Like, what are the odds? First of all, of somebody like given the fact that that is an English, apparently an English word for a foolish person somebody has a child someday and they're like oh, you know what he looks like. My last name is Noddy. I'm going to call him Tom, although you know now that I'm just now thinking maybe that was his stage name and maybe he called himself Tom Naughty on purpose, because he was foolish while he was doing bubble magic. Anyways, we are way far afield.

Jessica: 26:11

I think that's okay, we can watch the track sometimes it's okay, but I think that honestly it adds cool points if he, if they did take it on as a stage name because they did know that, because that's a pretty random factoid, I've never heard Tomnodd y before. Yeah, and then another comment to the narrator saying, of course it's insulting to anyone. Of course, Yet again the narrator going with information that's given to them, but not necessarily me?

Kritter: 26:43

Yeah, of course, of course. Like if I were talking to him I'd be like, totally yeah, but then I would be Googling on the side, yes, and then he was leading them all away singing these insulting songs that he's making up on the spot, which the narrator assures us like they could be better, but you know, he was making them up on the spot, so give him a break. So Bilbo steals back, kills another spider that was staying behind and he sets to freeing the dwarves All 12 dwarves freed, and they fight a pitched battle against the spiders, during which Bilbo finally has to reveal his party trick with the ring. They break free and begin an elastic retreat until the spiders finally give up. Massive relief once they get free. Or are you still on edge? Like, are we good?

Jessica: 27:28

I was. I was relieved. I will say there was a couple moments mid battle. There was a moment where it said that Sting shown with delight as he stabbed them, meaning the spiders, and so this is now a third time when an item that's being used is being given an opinion or a feeling.

Kritter: 27:57

Okay, so we've got the ring the Sting and then the purse. The purse, that's what you were talking about, yeah, okay.

Jessica: 28:03

So I was like, okay, and again, that's not something I've heard anybody anywhere mentioned before that Sting likes to kill, yeah, and maybe that's not what's happening, but that is how that read to me. So that kind of gave me pause for a moment. The other thing that I wrote is that I had a I had a little 'aw' moment for Bilbo.

Jessica: 28:31

I was like he's being heroic and he doesn't even see it in the moment that things were looking pretty bad again. And then suddenly Bilbo reappeared and he charged at the astonished spiders unexpectedly from the side, shouting go on, go on, I will do the stinging. So I don't know if he was just feeling his oats or not, but that is, that's heroic brave behavior, like unequivocally, yeah, absolutely. And so I was just kind of proud of him in that moment. You know he questions what he brings to the party. Lots of people question what he brings to the party and I just remember reading that and being like, oh, buddy, you're doing it.

Kritter: 29:19

Yeah, you are. The dwarves, like once they get settled or whatever, demand an exclamation from Bilbo. Like what do you mean? You have a ring that turns you invisible, basically. But like that does not diminish their newfound respect for him.

Kritter: 29:33

Right, that makes him even cooler, because having something like that is pretty amazing, and so I totally agree with you. Like, not only are you thinking, like you're really doing it, the dwarves are thinking like dang, we got ourselves a pretty solid burglar. And I'm, for the first time, thinking okay, bilbo, now you're finally pulling your weight.

Jessica: 29:52

Well done.

Kritter: 29:53

It took time, but here we are. You just had to warm up a little bit and, yeah, I was proud of him too after this.

Jessica: 29:59

He had some growing up to do too. You know, I think of Bilbo as living like a sheltered child lifestyle, and all this time on the road he's learned a lot.

Kritter: 30:08

Yeah.

Jessica: 30:09

I think so, and then I wrote the way that the narrator worded it, that once they defeated the spiders, they, quote, unquote, went back to, went back, disappointed, to their dark colony.

Kritter: 30:24

Just again.

Jessica: 30:25

You know it's very dark black and ominous and scary. Very well done.

Kritter: 30:32

Also the word colony. When it comes to spiders like that implies that there are a lot of spiders.

Jessica: 30:38

The numbers, yes, the numbers.

Kritter: 30:41

It's a lot of spiders and, yeah, it's just really well done and I didn't like it, but I liked it, but I didn't like it also.

Jessica: 30:51

But I will say that I did start to come down, and it wasn't until the book told me that I realized that we did not have Thorin.

Kritter: 30:58

That was the next thing.

Jessica: 31:00

Yeah.

Kritter: 31:01

Twelve. Dwarves free from the spiders. Not all the dwarves, there are 13 dwarves, let's all remember. And so the party realizes Thorin is missing, along with all of us, and we find out that the wood elves had taken him. So I pinpointed a little literary umami about the wood elves here In the wide world. The wood elves lingered in the twilight of our sun and moon, but love best the stars. Like those guys they sound pretty cool, kind of romantic even. I don't know.

Jessica: 31:32

So I love that description. I will say that I kind of zoned in on a different description, which is that they are characterized as more dangerous and less wise than the elves from. Rivendell which again just kind of added to the unease, like, yes, we survived the encounter with the spiders, but hearing that about the wood elves and knowing that they have taken Thorin, now. I'm like, oh, oh, maybe we're not quite out of the woods, so to speak.

Kritter: 32:04

Lol out of the woods Lol.

Jessica: 32:08

Oh, and the other thing, sorry.

Kritter: 32:10

No, you do, you do you.

Jessica: 32:12

Um. So, as they're going through, taking their breath and realizing that you know the 13 of them are okay, and they found out about Bilbo's ring. That was the moment where Balin got his vindication for not seeing him when he came down the mountain. So, and I just totally related to Balin in that moment, like I get it, he's a little bit older, right, and he's been around the block once or twice and he really wants to know how the blip that guy got by him and now he knows what it is and he feels better.

Kritter: 32:51

And man, if that's not relatable, I don't know what is yeah, the way he falls asleep, chuckling to himself oh, bilbo, bilbo, bilbo.

Jessica: 33:01

And then, of course, the last piece was just that, knowing about the ring and the disappearing, and it's still not lessening their opinion of him, and how heartwarming that was, you know, yeah, um, because it's not. It's not everything. Just having a magic ring isn't enough.

Kritter: 33:19

No, especially because, like the way he showed up against the spiders, you know, he took the ring off for certain moments and it really held his own for sure. Um, okay, so the wood elves and their king lived in a great cave that was their palace fortress dungeon. The king loved treasure, so, despite having that in common with Thorin, he imprisoned Thorin when Thorin refused to confess as to why he was traveling through Mirkwood. They did not treat Thorin badly, though. He got food and drink, which he sorely needed. So if you were Thorin, would you have spilled the beans?

Jessica: 33:55

No, I don't think I would, but I also have a little bit of a stubborn streak. So I think that, yes, he was given food and drink, but he was still taken prisoner. And then also to find out that he was taken prisoner because of some old beef over somebody's stole, somebody's jewels. That has nothing to do with Thorin or Thorin's family, right, I would not be inclined to be cooperative.

Kritter: 34:21

I'll just put it like that yeah Well, and we've already kind of established the animosity, general animosity between elves and dwarves, and apparently these elves aren't the wisest. So there's all these things.

Kritter: 34:32

like you know, Thorin has proven himself to not exactly be the most, uh, amiable person either, and so we've got like like less wise elves who love treasure, this dwarf who's kind of prickly, who also loves treasure and knows about some, and yeah, I just it feels natural that they did not get along. Yeah, yeah, um. So the narrator ends this chapter by letting us know that Thorin was soon to find out what was going on with his friends on another adventure, during which the hobbit showed his usefulness again. Do you like these little spoilery tidbits we sometimes get, like we kind of talked about them. It might have been last episode though, but yeah, I think they're kind of fun.

Jessica: 35:14

I do. I think that it's neat, that I think that it's another way for the narrator to stay involved in the story and to kind of show their hand that they are still guiding things.

Kritter: 35:27

Yeah, omnipotent narrator. So any final thoughts about this chapter before we move on to chapter nine.

Jessica: 35:35

Um, no, just you know, here we go again. Uh, out of the frying pan into the fire. More so, instead of the goblins to the wargs, we're from the spiders to the woodland elves TBD.

Kritter: 35:52

TBD. We shall see. Okay, so chapter nine barrels out of bound. The next day, the wood elves capture the dwarves, like immediately, as they wander in the forest looking for the path. Um, but Bilbo slipped away with the help of the ring. And as the dwarves are led into the mouth of the cave, Bilbo hesitates, not so sure that he shouldn't abandon them, he does decide to go in at the last second. So I have to be honest, every time he hesitates like this, I lose a little respect for him. So it's, it's not like he's the. The quintessential hero is what I'm saying. Um, that also probably makes it more real. But how do you feel about these moments of weakness for him? Like, I'm expecting him, you know he had that turn. He feels heroic, he's, you know he names his sword. He's amazing, he's. He's rushing spiders to try to protect his friends. And then he hesitates to go into this cave. And I'm just like what are you doing, Bilbo?

Jessica: 36:49

I think that, um, uh, on this, on this count, I'm kind of the opposite. So the fact, that he pauses reinforces for me that in the end he still makes the right call.

Jessica: 37:03

The fact that he pauses makes him, doesn't make him less. To me, it makes him more because there is something to be said for just rushing in without taking a second, you know, and there's no crime in my mind to be scared or overwhelmed or not saying that. That's what you're saying. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, no, it's fine. I don't think that pausing. I think that pausing and not doing it is a different outcome. The fact that he pauses and he still rises Okay, that makes it more brave for me.

Kritter: 37:41

Wow, you know, that's a totally different perspective and I like that better. Honestly, I don't like to be disappointed in people, right, and that was like, after all this, you're literally going to be like, should I? But I guess, if you, but if you look at it that way, where you're like, okay, I've been in a cave before, I did not like it, but I'm going to go, you know, so, right, okay, no, that's, that is the better way to look at it.

Jessica: 38:07

There's a case to be made, for. It's very difficult to be brave if you aren't first scared.

Kritter: 38:12

Wow, that's deep. Okay, so the dwarves are brought before the king and he says they don't need to be tied up anymore because quote there is no escape from my magic doors for those who are once brought inside. A little foreboding, no.

Jessica: 38:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not a fan of the Elven King, who shall remain nameless, apparently.

Kritter: 38:40

Yeah, yeah Right. It's different from the movies.

Jessica: 38:43

That's weird, because in the movies.

Kritter: 38:45

That's weird, that guys.

Jessica: 38:47

Well, I mean, but if you're going to be a king, why don't you have a name? Anyways, I had a couple of things on here. One was that you know he's wearing. I feel as though there's a real contrast between the way his appearance is described, which to me sounds very benevolent and druidic, and the way that he comes across, which is you're in my playground now, like you're in the Thunder Dome.

Jessica: 39:15

Yeah, so there's a little bit of a disconnect there and it's not. It doesn't take me out of the story by any means, but his appearance belies his actions.

Kritter: 39:28

Yeah, like he's incredibly fair, which is very Elfie, you know, and like in the. I just have to give a shout out to Lee Pace in the movies because that man is just so attractive, like wow, and the way they dress him, the way he has his like head ornament, all that stuff, like that's like.

Jessica: 39:47

The way that he carries himself like he. His performance there is just so committed yeah.

Kritter: 39:55

And it's fierce, which is perfect Because he's so beautiful like this. You know, this guy is described in the book, but then when he talks, you're like, oh, you're kind of a, you know you kind of a B. Not so great.

Kritter: 40:07

Yeah, you're like not the nicest dude. Yeah, yeah, so interesting. So, after refusing to answer questions, the dwarves also get put into cells, like Thorin did, and Bilbo kicks off a long and lonely stint as an invisible burglar, mapping out the caves, stealing food, hardly sleeping and occasionally slipping out with hunting parties. He thinks this is the dreariest and dullest part so far of this tiresome, wretched, uncomfortable adventure.

Jessica: 40:35

As the reader.

Kritter: 40:36

Do you agree with them?

Jessica: 40:40

I mean, I don't know if it's the most tiresome, it does sound. It does sound a lot like purgatory, right, like it does sound like he can't go First off. This goes on for weeks. So this is another thing where this is kind of a departure and I don't feel like time is represented. This goes on for weeks.

Jessica: 40:58

So can you imagine just days and days and days on end of you can't even like where do you sleep so that you don't make noise and somebody doesn't stumble across you? You can go outside, but like where would you go? You can't even leave your party because you can't get beyond. You need your party to survive. So even if he could which I honestly don't think he would I honestly don't think he would in cold blood leave his party behind. But even if he were so inclined, he doesn't have the skills to get far without them. And you know, just to rock in a hard place, just stuck in limbo, in the worst kind of limbo, going, what could I possibly do? And so just do that for weeks Sounds awful, I don't know if it's the drearyest you know.

Jessica: 41:50

I think that sometimes the words that Bilbo uses are almost comical.

Kritter: 41:57

He's a little drama king. But you know go ahead.

Jessica: 42:01

I was gonna say that he kind of undersells it a little bit like I don't know. You know boring dreary. I would have said, you know, terrifying and harrowing, but okay, sure, maybe.

Kritter: 42:15

I'm the drama, am I the drama? Okay, I guess it's like when he's saying you know, in this he also describes the, as I said, the adventure as tiresome, wretched, uncomfortable, which, fair, fair, fair you know, but it's just the way he kind of gets down on things sometimes, especially when he's hungry, like when he's hungry man, you will hear him complain. Like well, the narrator will complain on his behalf for him. But yeah, sometimes he can be a little.

Jessica: 42:43

We all know how relatable it is to get hangry.

Kritter: 42:46

It's true.

Jessica: 42:47

I did like his quote. I'm like a burglar that can't get away but must go on miserably burgling the same house day after day, and I just thought that that was hilarious, cause you know only Bilbo, poor guy, it would only happen to Bilbo. But through that time, you know, he finds where each of them is kept, which, again, that's the way it's worded in the book, which to me kind of implies that they are in different places. Like it took time. So it's very clear that Thorin is separate from all of them, but he had to track them all down individually. And the other thing is that how convenient that he's recently had the conversation with them about his magic invisible ring, so that when he does start speaking to them then they know that. You know they're not as surprised they know he can go invisible.

Kritter: 43:44

Right. That would be a little, a little surprising. So Bilbo tells them all that he's there, right, and they're all they're like. One of the first things that they think is like oh, thank God, we're not gonna have to tell the king about our treasure. I mean, it's like priorities.

Kritter: 44:00

I guess, I'm in a, I'm in a dungeon or whatever. I'm in a cell in a, in a hostile environment, because otherwise why would they put me in a cell? But you know, by golly, I really didn't want to tell that king about my treasure. Now I don't have to Amazing. These dwarves are so they're a lot. So Bilbo falls into a bit of luck. No surprise, there he seems incredibly lucky, and on the night of a great feast, the chief guard and Butler both of whom would necessarily be involved in an escape plan involving food barrels that Bilbo had previously sorted out fell asleep in a particularly strong wine they decided to sample. Bilbo swipes the keys, frees the dwarves and once they hear his plan to smuggle them out through the river gate in barrels, the first thing the dwarves do is complain. So are dwarves just whiners, or do you?

Jessica: 44:51

think it's just fair. They are terrible they are super bad, awful.

Jessica: 44:56

It makes me so mad and I gotta tell you, when Bilbo clapped back, I was so frickin' happy. I am like you know what we established in last chapter that they are looking to you for answers like legitimate, real answers, Like all of a sudden you're the dude to go to. Why, then, is it that, when you were in a tight spot and I am literally the only person on the other side of the wheel that you're gonna poo, poo my idea? So the quote was well, and you know, infused with whatever level of frustration you can imagine. Come along back to your nice cells and I will lock you all in again and you can sit there comfortably and think of a better plan, but I don't suppose I shall ever get a hold of the keys again, even if I feel inclined to try. I was like the shade, but yes brother, they deserve it.

Kritter: 45:51

They deserve it yes brother. Yeah, so Bilbo, like he gets them all out. Obviously he's scared to death, and he mentions about this dwarvish racket, which he's commented on, before he ends up returning the keys to the guard though because quote he wasn't a bad fellow. This struck me as so random. Do you think this spoke to Bilbo's character at all, or did you just nothing? Absolutely.

Jessica: 46:16

No, no, no, I loved it. I loved it. First off, the keys on the way out and the way back. It said when he took the keys that his heart was still in his throat. So again, just another. You can't be brave if you aren't scared thing, Like even though he's invisible. He knows that the stakes are high and he is scared, but he really wants to help his friends and then, of course, putting him back because he doesn't want him to get in so much trouble, and I just I love that about him.

Kritter: 46:41

I really do. He seems like a sweet guy.

Jessica: 46:45

He really does. And then they talk about, you know, as he's loading his friends into the barrels, you know, a couple of throwaway comments about what it is to be really hungry, because he's having to, you know, scavenge a meal off of a windowsill and this and that. And I was like think about how the Bilbo and May would have felt about having to take a meal versus now. I thought that that was a very telling. Again, just a throwaway comment, right, like it's nothing. It has nothing to do with the plot, but it does show how far Bilbo has come.

Kritter: 47:26

Yeah, absolutely so. The dwarfs get stowed by Bilbo, as you said, and shortly thereafter some elves come down to dispatch the barrels. So the way the elves interacted was kind of delightful to me. They affectionately called the butler an old villain and, by the way, the way Andy Serkis does them is that they're like they're slurring their words because they were just partying and all this other stuff. They're like where's this old villain? So the butler claimed he fell asleep, waiting for them as if it was their fault, as if he didn't drink super strong wine, and then they teased him about it because they could tell exactly what happened. So like, that was really fun in contrast to the like really mean or intense king interaction, and so it seemed merry to me after such intense sequences. Did the tone change affect you at all? Are you used to this? Like whiplash now between POVs?

Jessica: 48:19

Well, I think that in the beginning of the chapter they did. The narrator does let you know. These are elves that are merry too, that are singing, that are celebrating that love to party under the stars. I think that the king's interaction, I think that they did a good enough job setting it up so that the king's interaction when he's questioning his guests is an outlier in terms of behavior that these fellows are portrayed as very jolly, merry, partying kind of fellows, and I think that for me the contrast in that moment was the grumbly dwarves who had been smushed into the barrels.

Jessica: 49:01

I don't have that quote, but there was one of the one of Thorin where he sounded like a big dog being put into a small kennel, Just you know what I Mean? So Bilbo's fighting for his life. He's fighting for his friend's lives. He's smushing them into barrels and nailing the tops down and he's hiding in the corner trying to make their escape. And that's how his friends are treating him, versus the contrast to these very merry, slightly drunk elves.

Kritter: 49:31

Yeah, that is a pretty sharp contrast. So Bilbo hadn't considered that he would also need to escape with the barrels, ideally, if he was going to keep together with his friends. So while the elves sang a farewell song to the barrels which I thought was really poetic Bilbo grabbed the last one and went down the chute. This next part, with him bobbing and freezing and trying to stay afloat, gave me a fair amount of anxiety. Did anything stand out to you from this whole sequence?

Jessica: 50:02

I was reminded yet again that Bilbo doesn't know how to swim.

Kritter: 50:05

Yeah, yeah, extra anxiety because of that.

Jessica: 50:08

Yeah, so I absolutely felt for him, but could also relate to I can't care about my friends right now because I am legitimately just trying to stay alive.

Kritter: 50:19

Yeah, like they might be drowning, who knows?

Jessica: 50:23

I might be drowning.

Kritter: 50:24

I might be drowning, can't think about it. So the barrels escaped the caves and spend the night along a bank. Bilbo snipes a meal from the elves, as you mentioned, who were there to handle the barrels, and I got a kick out of this part. So it goes. He no longer thought twice about picking up a supper uninvited if he got the chance. He had been obliged to do it for so long and he knew now only too well what it's like to be really hungry, not merely politely interested in the dainties of a well-filled larder.

Kritter: 50:52

So that kind of like pinged me and it dawned on me that he maybe has never actually experienced hunger like at all, because hobbits eat like every hour of the day, right? So it's like when it comes time to eat it could be more of a polite interest rather than an actual hunger. So I thought that was a fun way to phrase it personally, yeah, yeah. So also that little bit of internal dialogue just screamed hobbit to me, because of all the creatures, of course, politely interested in the dainties of a well-filled larder Like, yeah, very, very dainty.

Jessica: 51:30

Only a hobbit would talk like that.

Kritter: 51:31

I know. So we're coming towards the end of the chapter. Were there any other passages or bits of literary umami that you flagged from this chapter that we haven't talked about yet?

Jessica: 51:43

Let me just. I had one other, so this was from the beginning of the chapter. I skipped it by accident. One was they referred to, the Dwarves referred to him as remarkable, mr Invisible Baggins. You know, before the plan right. Before they poo-pooed his plan, that's what they called him.

Jessica: 52:08

Another one was a comment made by Bilbo. It was a weary long time that he lived in that place all alone and always in hiding, and I was just like, oh, buddy, sounds really sad. And then I had all of us must escape or none, and this is our last chance talking about getting the Dwarves out of there and into the barrels. The last thing that I had was, honestly, the end of the chapter. So one is drawing near the end of the Eastward journey. So again, kind of the narrator's bookmarking.

Jessica: 52:51

Up to this point it's been, you know, the Eastward journey, so it feels like another transition as we come into next week's episode and I just thought it was a great cliffhanger. Right, they had escaped the dungeons of the king and were through the wood, but whether alive or dead still remains to be seen. I really hadn't even put it together that he doesn't even know if they're alive in those barrels.

Kritter: 53:14

Yeah, yeah, that was the cliff. Like I wrote that exact thing down because that was when we finished this, this chapter, you know, because we read a big chunk of chapters all together, and it was like this is where I have to end, literally Like we, finally we got through Mirkwood, all of that stuff, and this is where I'm stopping. They might be dead, who knows, obviously I know, but still I wanted to see what happened next. Transitions are hard, man, they are, yeah, and so it's funny how we did end up having multiple transitions, you know, between like it's almost like he, he kind of the narrator designates sections of the book, right. So you kind of have a natural section at the very beginning, with the doors all coming to the shire and all that stuff, and then you know you've got the trolls, and then the goblin section, and then the Beorn and Mirkwood and the elves are all this big section, and now and now we've got the next section the end, the final section, according to the narrator, kind of maybe.

Jessica: 54:15

So yeah, pretty exciting Possibly, we don't know.

Kritter: 54:17

Possibly possibly.

Jessica: 54:19

So that brings us to the end of what we're talking about in tonight's episode, and, in looking ahead, what we're going to be reading for next week is a little bit bigger, it's chapters 10 through 13.

Kritter: 54:35

Yes, though, though do be aware that we may skip a week of new episodes because of the Thanksgiving holiday, right, so we won't be recording that. We might have a single week delay between episodes, so just be aware of that. After Thanksgiving.

Jessica: 54:51

Yes, I will have to. We can probably drop that on our socials, right Kritter? Yeah, when we know what our bye week is.

Kritter: 54:58

Yes, yeah, we will do that for sure.

Jessica: 55:01

Okay, great so, but that's the plan. So we're looking at chapters 10 through 13 for our next episode. So, we'd like to say thank you so much for tuning in to episode four for our podcast, But are their dragons? Brought to you by your hosts, me, Jessica Sedai and Kritter XD. Please don't forget to follow us at But Are there Dragons? On YouTube, Instagram and TikTok and But Dragons Pod? Just one. T On X, formerly known as Twitter. You can find Kritter at Kritter XD, Kritter with a K on YouTube, TikTok and X, and at Kritter underscore XD. On Instagram, you can find me by searching for shelf indulgence on TikTok, Instagram and X. So that's it for tonight. We're still workshopping catchphrases, so let us know on socials how you feel about it. Here's tonight's Remember. You are over the edge of the wild now and in for all sorts of fun wherever you go. Thank you and good night Bye.