Episode 5: The One with the Mountain, Lake-Town, & SMAUG!

Come along for the ride that is Episode 5! Kritter and Jessica are discussing Chapters 10 through 13 of The Hobbit as we barrel toward the climax (see what we did there?)! We finally see our final destination, The Lonely Mountain. Bilbo and the dwarves make it to Lake-Town. But, more importantly, we FINALLY get a dragon. It's SMAUG! AHHH! We also talk about Bilbo's continuing evolution, why Balin really is the best, and more. 

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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.

Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix

Transcript

Kritter: 0:14

Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, Kritter, and I'm your host, Jessica, and we're kicking off this adventure with the Hobbit by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran and me as a Tolkien first-timer In this our fifth episode. We're going to discuss chapters 10 through 13. Before we dive in Jessica, how are you feeling?

Jessica: 0:45

I will say that I feel a little raked over the coals. It's, you know, chapters 10 through 13 is a ride.

Kritter: 0:54

Literally In some ways All right. So chapter 10, a warm welcome. Let us set the scene, because it's been a minute. Bilbo is riding along invisible, on a raft made of barrels driven by elves. Eventually his view opens up and far away, its dark head. In a torn cloud. There loomed the mountain All alone. It rose and looked across the marshes to the forest, the lonely mountain, and Bilbo does not like the look of it at all. Are you looking ahead to the mountain or more concerned with the dwarves still stuck in the barrels underneath Bilbo?

Jessica: 1:36

So I was absolutely worried about the dwarves. You know we went quite a bit into this chapter before we bothered to find out if they were alive. We did. It was a little disturbing and also just keeping in mind that we're consuming this book in different media. The mountain is capitalized in every instance. It's very rarely referred to as the lonely mountain, but it is always capitalized like a proper noun and it has given a lot of traits it is looming, it is brooding, it is.

Jessica: 2:14

Yeah, we, it's hanging out and scary For sure. And there's also a thing that the narrator did right to kick off chapter 10, where they said then Bilbo saw a sight and a semicolon and it was just this really kind of cute moment after a little bit of a break from the book where the narrator reminds us that they've kind of got the wheel right.

Kritter: 2:39

I'm still here.

Jessica: 2:40

I'm still here and here's where we're going, and it was just a super brief. It's about to get epic on the visuals and it did not disappoint. And then proceeds to describe how ominous this mountain is.

Kritter: 2:55

Pretty dang ominous. So we actually find out here that the forest road they were taking before they left the path was going to be a dead end. The narrator lets us know that Gandalf also found out about this and was planning to wrap up his other business, which is still a mystery, to come back and find Thorin's company. Are you as intrigued as I am about Gandalf's other business?

Jessica: 3:20

I mean, I am, but I'm also a little salty about it because Gandalf has already proven he's not going to tell us anything a second before he's ready to. And I'm just a little salty about it, but I do. I did find it interesting that the road that Beorn had recommended would not have led them there and that Bilbo had, quote come in the end by the only road that was any good. So I thought that that was really neat, you know, so lucky that they got thrown in the river and my bullet right underneath that. Meanwhile the elves and the men go to Lake Town to feast, all in caps, I wrote. He still doesn't know if his friends are even alive.

Kritter: 4:02

Yeah, yeah, so we get to Lake Town. It's actually so. This is interesting because I don't remember how I pictured it before. I don't remember how it was depicted in the movies which, by the way, I will be rewatching the movies very soon because I'm so curious.

Kritter: 4:18

But so it's built on piles of forest trees on the lake. I'm just picturing this like God awful raft, but I know that's not like exactly what it is, I mean. But do we know that? I guess we don't for sure know that it's got a wooden bridge running out to it. And we also find out that some of the people there remember Thror and Thrain and they sing songs about the dwarf kings of the mountain and the race of Durin and the dwarves returning and gold flowing in the rivers. So are you expecting a warm welcome for the dwarves, assuming they're alive at this point?

Jessica: 4:56

I'm not sure what to expect. I think that it's interesting that they are still holding onto these kind of old time songs and stories. I will mention that in this block of reading. I, as I've told you, I'm reading on a Kindle and, if you long, hold on a word it will automatically offer you a definition and things. And I accidentally had a long press on Smaug and it told me that it had been 171 years since Smaug had taken the mountain.

Kritter: 5:31

Okay, that's an amazing fact. I actually thought. I wondered this several times, based on I have to, but I don't Google anything because I'm trying to be such a good first timer. Yeah.

Jessica: 5:41

I can Google anything and I actually try not to long press on anything. That's a real Going to spoil a facet of Tolkien and I'm like I know, I know who Smaug is, so it was just kind of funny. It was like 171 years is a pretty long dang time.

Kritter: 5:57

It is.

Jessica: 5:59

So I thought that was kind of wild and I didn't really know what to expect. I thought I also was very thrown back by the construction of Lake Town. Okay, I didn't understand the benefit of building your community out on the water.

Kritter: 6:20

But you, but you find out later that there is a benefit.

Jessica: 6:24

I still remain skeptical. Yes, I'll just say that for now.

Kritter: 6:28

Yeah, yeah, and honestly, like when we find out the bonuses that are involved, it's like, did they mean for that to be a bonus or was it just an accident? Anyways, we can talk about that later, but it was lucky that it ends up, you know, in the middle of the lake. So the elves park, the barrels, bilbo proceeds to set the dwarves, assuming they're alive, free. This is the description of Thorin. The first one freed, wet straw in a draggled beard, so sore and stiff, bruised and buffeted that he could hardly stand or stumble onto the shore to lie down with a famished and savage look like a dog that had been chained and forgotten in a kennel for a week. I can like we talk about this in almost every episode, if not every episode, but I could see Thorin in that moment like you know exactly what he looked like.

Jessica: 7:23

The poster child for bedraggled.

Kritter: 7:25

Yeah, just sad like poor guy honestly.

Jessica: 7:29

So the thing that really got me through this litany of him uncanning his friends, bilbo basically decanting all of his friends, yeah Is that. You know, I never doubt that he's grateful that they're alive, but for those that are still conscious, when he gets them out, they start to, you know, eventually get more and more grumbly, and Bilbo's response is basically but did you die? So I feel like we've turned a bit of a corner with Bilbo's confidence. He's no longer going to be the whipping boy for the dwarves, and I'm here for it.

Kritter: 8:11

Yeah, yeah, thorin. Even after he gets out, he asks Bilbo for next steps. So much for King under the mountain, you, mr Small burglar, hobbit man. What do we do next? You know, like also I feel like I was. I wasn't sure how Thorin was going to get out, but I was going to react when Bilbo scolded him for complaining.

Jessica: 8:29

You know what I mean Because.

Kritter: 8:30

Thorin can be kind of a turd, but he was just like you're right. And then they started unpacking the people.

Kritter: 8:36

So that turned out better than I kind of expected. So Thorin announces himself to the guards of Laketown with Bilbo, Fili and Kili at his side, and we find out that Fili and Kili are his nephews, also of the line of Durin. At least I don't recall that being announced before now. We talked early on about a lot of the dwarves kind of running together, like not really necessarily distinguishing themselves from one another. Are you finding them more distinguishable now?

Jessica: 9:05

I find some of them more like. I don't think that we've had any input on Oin or Gloin, yeah, or Ori or Nori for that matter.

Kritter: 9:16

Okay, so some of them are NPCs. Still yeah.

Jessica: 9:20

That's what happens when your party is that big, I guess.

Kritter: 9:23

True, true.

Jessica: 9:25

I did make note of the fact that when Thorin presents himself now he starts to throw around that king under the mountain title as he shows up to the feast, and for me that moment was priceless because it didn't hit until that moment that, oh, they're about to present and that's where the elves went to feast. So, that was kind of a lot of times. I'm just in the moment so I'm not thinking about what's coming. Yeah, so that didn't. That realization didn't hit until it was spelled out in the book and I thought that that was fabulous.

Kritter: 10:01

Yeah.

Jessica: 10:02

To you know kind of torture. The raft elves just a little bit, just a little, just a little bit. And the only other note I had about this is it's probably the only time I think that Thorin's politician-esque style didn't hit funky in the read. Like he was coming in with presence, and these are my people and this is why we're here, and we're here to reclaim our home. So that was the one time that I felt that that wasn't incongruent.

Kritter: 10:33

Mm-hmm.

Jessica: 10:34

That that really fit him Like. He was fully in that role and it seemed appropriate given the circumstance.

Kritter: 10:42

It definitely did, and I feel like if he wouldn't have presented himself with as much flair, you know, he got the town going. He got the entire town just lit up with tales of riches and all this other stuff, and the master of the town was inclined to believe the elves from the rafts that these are just like prisoners, these are frauds, whatever. But he had no choice but to follow along with public sentiment and just kind of like accept Thorin and his crew as the king under the mountain and just move on from there. And so this was our first introduction to the master of the town. We'll get to know more about him soon. But yeah, thorin's politician side was very helpful here, I think Mm-hmm Also okay, so this description made me laugh. Thorin looked and walked as if his kingdom was already regained and Smaug chopped up into little pieces, mm-hmm.

Jessica: 11:39

Like.

Kritter: 11:40

I know that this to me as an adult, when I hear that I'm like and kids are supposed to read this, that's so graphic, right.

Jessica: 11:48

But I guess it's like Some of it really is Almost comical.

Kritter: 11:52

But not comical for me. This is a sentient being. You're like we're just going to dice him up like little, I don't know little little bizarre for me.

Jessica: 12:01

I guess the only thing I would fall back on is my one saving grace would be that Smaug is in fact a baddie. You know, like there's yeah, there's no, there's no whiff of the story that paints Smaug as redeemable. He is a true villain, true, not that that makes it okay, but but that's where we're at.

Kritter: 12:25

So, given public sentiment, the dwarves, they live it up in Lake Town, celebrities looking fondly on Bilbo even, who was relatively miserable with a bad cold and the knowledge that the mountain and dragon were in front of them rather than behind, would you be team dwarf, party hardy or team Bilbo, like worry wart, in this situation?

Jessica: 12:45

I am still team Bilbo 110%. Thank you very much.

Kritter: 12:50

That's actually ironic because I literally have quotes. Thank you very much. Just in the books, because Bilbo's got a cold, that's something I keep going, Sorry, no, just the only.

Jessica: 13:01

You know the chapter ends with the only person thoroughly unhappy was Bilbo, and I just can't, you know, can't not say it again that dude's got instincts. I feel like we really shouldn't ignore his instincts. But they had a really nice, you know, two week break. Yep.

Kritter: 13:17

Yep, so yeah, speaking, basically the end of the end of the chapter. The master secretly thinks that the dwarves are frauds but is surprised when Thorin's like you know what, yeah, we should probably, we should probably complete our mission. So the master hooks them up with plenty of supplies and ponies and they went on their way before we move on to chapter 11. Any final thoughts?

Jessica: 13:39

Just the pervasive greed associated with the treasure located in the lonely mountain. It's not really framed that way before now, but when we hear insight into the way the master is thinking about it, I just wrote oh the greed, eww gross. Because you know and it's a theme that continued through this reading- yeah, it did it's.

Kritter: 14:10

We hear more about the type of greed this treasure causes soon. Okay, so chapter 11 on the doorstep. We're getting close. Sorry, it's exciting. So after a few days travel on boat, they meet up with the men who had brought their supplies around about way. The men declined to stay even one night, not at any rate, until the stories have come true. I like this little bit. It was easier to believe in the dragon and less easy to believe in Thorin in these wild parts, says the narrator. And they knew that they were drawing near to the end of their journey and that it might be a very horrible end. So all of these things are just like getting. Everything's getting exciting, everything's getting intense. The stakes are super high, but it's also really gloomy leading up to the climax of the book. Did anything from this whole like journey out to the mountain stand out to you?

Jessica: 15:04

So they talked about no laughter or songs or sound of harp. So you know the contrast is in the chapter 10. There's mention of all of these songs that really kind of sound like they touch on prophecy, almost right. You know the king under the mountain will return and the rivers will flow gold, like you mentioned. And so you know it's all very lively and then all it takes is this journey out to the lonely mountain. There's no more music and the old songs by the lake died away to a plodding gloom is how it was worded. And I mean that's a crashing down case of reality right there.

Jessica: 15:41

The other things about this first part that caught me is he referred? The narrator refers to it as the desolation of the dragon, which gave me shivers in all the right ways.

Kritter: 15:53

I want to just cut in because I also had that written down. But like the particular line that that was in, I thought was a perfect little piece of literary umami, as we call it. It says they were come to the desolation of the dragon and they were come at the waning of the year. It's just, I just got like little baby goose bumps there because it's just so like oh man, this is, you can feel it. It gives you you feel exactly how you're supposed to feel. Basically, thanks, Tolkien. Thanks, Narrator.

Jessica: 16:19

And I really like that. The other thing that happens right in this area. Sorry, I'm also. I've got my Kindle on the side too, because I had a lot of highlights.

Kritter: 16:30

I know it's like it's. It's funny how that works in certain passages.

Jessica: 16:32

So instead of trying to copy them all. I just wanted to see where it was. I could have teed it up. No, worries. But the other part that was here, there it is. Is where I believe it's Balin who said there lies all that is left of Dale when they're surveying the area and seeing and that was what the devastation of when Smaug first arrived to the area that scene confirms.

Jessica: 17:08

I feel like it might have been alluded to earlier in the book. I meant to go back and confirm that but I didn't, that Balin was with Thorin on the day that Smaug attacked. That's why they weren't home and that's why they survived. Just that scene, hearing it so quietly but powerfully described by Balin at least in my reading voice really just had impact. Really, I could infer the sorrow that comes with it, looking at that and probably having flashbacks to seeing all of that devastation occurring real time.

Kritter: 17:54

Yeah, the loss and the grief. So while they're scouting, essentially they don't get much out of it, aside from getting to see Dale and also getting the creeps from Crows. There's a ton of Crows there. Balin says they look like the spies of evil, so this reminded me of the Wheel of Time, where Crows literally are the spies of evil. So apologies for putting you on the spot, but have you had this experience recognizing something from the Hobbit that has showed up in other books you've read and I know it's just like think now.

Jessica: 18:30

I mean, I feel like, yes, but it's a little bit of the egg chicken, because a lot of times I'm not sure which came first. Obviously, I know that Tolkien came before Robert Jordan, but at the same time that's kind of what I was alluding to in one of our first episodes Like Tolkien is the landscape. It is so pervasive there are references to it in just conversation that I think for anyone who's even a little bit of a fantasy fan, you just kind of take it, you don't even think anything of it. So I'm sure there are references, but I don't know how often I actually pick up on them.

Jessica: 19:13

The bird thing is definitely a big deal, lots of birds, lots of birds. This last part, all right.

Kritter: 19:21

So, after a long search, they found where the secret door should have been but, could not get it to reveal itself or open it for the life of them. It was up a narrow path. Oh you go ahead.

Jessica: 19:31

Sorry, I just before we go up the narrow path. I had a note about the front entrance, because I don't remember the front entrance being described or seen in the cartoon or the movies.

Jessica: 19:47

So the front entrance is described as having pouring out steam and a dark smoke, and it just kind of jumped off the page at me. I'm like it's a smoking hole in the ground. I don't remember ever hearing that before, and so that was. Sometimes those differences pop out at me, and that was one of those times and I was like that sounds super, super ominous, Super terrible. We don't like it at all.

Kritter: 20:12

Yeah, also a waterfall or something near the entrance and so like.

Jessica: 20:16

I had a hard time picturing. That's where the start of the running river is and that's why there's steam as well as smoke.

Kritter: 20:23

That makes sense. Okay, were you saying something else?

Jessica: 20:27

Oh, I was just also, you know. And then, as they're looking for the hidden path but can't find it, the spirit of the dwarves ebb, but not Bilbo's. He keeps going, he keeps pondering the runes and their message, and then he's the one that actually finds the path up to the secret door. So, just I don't know why, but I feel the need to scorekeep for Bilbo Like that's another one for Bilbo.

Kritter: 20:55

Yeah Well, my toxic trait is like I would be like Bilbo, where it's like, okay, we're all looking for something, I will be the one to find it. I will be the one to beat this map and find it. Just, you know, because it's a good feeling. It's like whenever somebody at your house you know, your husband perhaps is looking for something and can't find it for the life of them, and you're like, have you looked here? And that's where it is. That feeling can't be beat. It really is so Bilbo has. He was riding high, I'm sure, when he found the door, so let's see they. So it's up this narrow path and Bombur says he's not gonna. He's not gonna do it, no way, he wouldn't make it up. Ropes couldn't haul him. Whatever. Our narrator let us know that the latter wasn't true, as we would see. How are you in the narrator getting along these days?

Jessica: 21:45

Well, you know it was Bombur that was making comments about his size, not anybody else. So I have to kind of walk past that because I'm guilty of that myself. But yeah, no narrator, just letting us know again, there's more to come, and I know it and you don't. I know something you don't know. Yeah, I kind of love that at this point. My literary umami comes right after that where it says danger brooded in every rock. I'm like nobody talks like that.

Kritter: 22:16

Except for Tolkien, except Tolkien Me when I'm feeling feisty like I'm, when I'm trying to be Tolkien. So so there's this long, miserable time of no change. With the door, bilbo, though, cracks the code to the song of a thrush cracking a snail's shell. So, with the last sliver of light from the setting sun, as a tiny new moon rose, a keyhole appeared in the smooth stone. The dwarves use the key, and they managed to push the door open At the end of chapter 11. How are you feeling?

Jessica: 22:52

Good, you know, the thrush knocking with a snail instead of an acorn which is, you know, minor murder, for some reason just felt grosser. I don't know why, I don't know why I get fixated on these little details, right, but that was the one that stuck out to me. I was like oh, the poor snail. And then you know just that Bilbo, again, is the one who catches on to what's happening.

Kritter: 23:16

Tells.

Jessica: 23:16

Thorin to get up there with the key. And then the last thing you know is a little ominous the close of chapter 11, because it said it seemed as if darkness flowed out like a vapor from the hole. Yeah, holes in the sides of mountains aren't exactly our strong suit. So far, not so far.

Kritter: 23:35

Yeah, are goblins coming out, you know, are there? Don't know? Elves that are going to put you in the prison back there. Are there trolls? You know? Victims, clothes hanging? No, there's actually a dragon and we're no good has come of it.

Kritter: 23:51

No good, but by golly, we got to. We got to move on into it. So, chapter 12, inside information, thorin makes a speech announcing that it was time for Bilbo to finally perform his assigned task to earn his reward. This made me laugh, as if he hadn't earned it yet. How did you take this whole little sequence?

Jessica: 24:16

My comment that I wrote is Bilbo is starting to really have a spine, and I dig it and I'm paraphrasing heavily because I'm never going to be able to find it timely. But you know, basically, if if what you're asking is for me to go down the hallway, then just spit it out and I am living for it. I am absolutely here for him to no longer be a Dwarven Doormat.

Jessica: 24:38

And I don't I really, I think you might have made a comment in a previous episode where you know some of that might be cultural, so that might be how the dwarves themselves behave, However.

Kritter: 24:53

However, it's still rude.

Jessica: 24:55

It's very rude, yeah, and I'm glad that he's not tolerating it anymore, and I do feel like when he pushes back, they go. Oh, of course you're right, you know, and I think that that's validating that that's not acceptable behavior and that he's requiring more of them. Yeah, and then the other part that I have there is. I really love that it was Balin that offered to go with him to check out the super secret, scary hallway.

Kritter: 25:25

So I? The literal next thing I said is about Balin. So he's grown fond of Bilbo. I've decided Balin is the most likeable dwarf period. So you, I was going to say, do you have a favorite dwarf?

Jessica: 25:37

Yeah, no, it would have to be Balin, which is so well. I would say it's so weird, but it's really not given. You know everything. The read has really changed my perception of Thorin to this point even though we haven't finished the book yet. It's really changed my perception of him and we'll wait to see how it ends. But I would say that Thorin, in my very simplistic, childlike way you know, as a kid going into these Thorin was the hero, the dwarf hero, and I A dwarf king king under the mountain.

Jessica: 26:13

Yes, you know, he was a golden prince of a kind, and that is definitely not my perception, having read the book.

Kritter: 26:20

Yeah, I agree, I'd like you know whenever you think about the Peter Jackson movies and Thorin had his moments, but like he was daddy Thorin, you know it's kind of hard to like hate him.

Jessica: 26:30

He was still very.

Kritter: 26:31

Yeah, he was still very positively portrayed and charismatic and like and. Granted, we see some instances of the charisma here, but more often you see him just being a little turd, like a turd Ferguson. You know what I mean and you get, and it's not glossed over in the book. It's just like no, he's calling Bombur fat now and he's threatening him, and now he's. He's complaining. I almost cursed. He's complaining at Bilbo for this, that and the other, and Bilbo is literally saving him while he's doing this. So yeah, he's just, he's the worst. So I guess Balin's the best dwarf, Thorin the worst dwarf.

Kritter: 27:11

I mean as far as we know.

Jessica: 27:13

Yeah, I'd like to reserve judgment until we get to the end, but he's probably the biggest disappointment, which sounds super harsh to me.

Kritter: 27:23

Again.

Jessica: 27:23

I'm a good vibes girl, right Like I'm not reading to be mad at anybody, but I think that if, if anybody, it would be Thorin.

Kritter: 27:31

Well, and I I don't think it's a bad thing, I don't, I don't. I also am a positive vibes girly, I prefer to be happy and enjoy things. But I also think that it's fun to have, like the drama. It's fun to have just people, you know, butting heads and whatnot. It's cause it just it spices things up a little bit. And so it's fun to have a protagonist who's not just super relatable, like Bilbo, or like super friendly, like Balin. He's complicated, and so I think it's a good thing. I think it makes for a better story that you and I are both like eff this guy he's the worst, but also every now and then he redeems himself. And so should I, you know, should I or should I not, I don't know Like him?

Jessica: 28:23

That's a really good point. You know, you can't just have your bad guys, be the one with bad behavior traits, cause, first off, that's not real life and second off, that's incredibly boring to read. So that's a really good point. I will say that, after all that, the narrator does go on a little bit of a tangent to reassure us that dwarves aren't all bad they would have done their best to get him out of trouble and then tells us they're calculating and have a great idea of the value of money. The quote that sent me, though, was, finally, quote decent enough people If you don't expect too much. I wrote that down too. I was like wow, I don't know what to say to that.

Kritter: 29:03

So I. The question that I had associated with this was he gives us a subscription. Finally, like they're not heroes, they're calculating. Some are tricky and treacherous. Thorin's lot were decent enough, whatever. Did this description change your perception of dwarves at all? Or did this just kind of check out, compared, like given what we've seen?

Jessica: 29:24

Yeah, I feel like this is just a summation of stuff that we've picked up along the way to here. If they weren't calculating people, they wouldn't be so contractually driven.

Kritter: 29:34

I would say the contract was kind of, you know, and I don't think that they're truly bad creatures.

Jessica: 29:41

I think that they you know they're. They are self serving to a certain extent, which any, any person can relate to, or they're probably not being 100% honest, yeah, and, but yeah, just the decent enough, as long as you don't need too much from them.

Kritter: 30:00

Maybe, maybe it was there, maybe it was the okay. If you still think the dwarves are the hero of this story, let me disabuse you. They are not heroes. If you haven't been with me.

Jessica: 30:12

If you haven't been with me, this far.

Kritter: 30:15

Yeah, if you're okay with all the nonsense that Thorin has been getting away with so far, like, let me just. Let me just tell you they are not heroes, because Bilbo's a hero, which I think is so fun, because he's so little and just people don't take him seriously. Okay, so Bilbo climbs down the tunnel. This is his job, he's doing it. It gets hotter and hotter and a red glow grew more and more prominent. It looks like the dragon is there after all. How hilarious would the story have been if the dragon was just not there. Like treasure, where's the dragon?

Jessica: 30:49

I don't know, I don't know, that's crazy. I will say that again. Differences from reading, right? So the reading gives you the fact that the dragon throws heat, that's not a thing I ever. I mean, it makes sense right? Dude breathes fire but had never occurred to it. So he's throwing heat enough to heat up the tunnel and you know he's got like red lights coming out of his eyes. These are not details, I remember from before.

Kritter: 31:19

Yeah, and don't get me wrong, like I feel like Smaug in the Hobbit movies, even though that's not what we're here to talk about, but he was kind of a highlight for those movies, absolutely Played by Benedict Cumber Dragon, like you know, incredibly done.

Jessica: 31:32

Benedict Cumber Dragon, is that what?

Kritter: 31:34

you said, ever since he was in the Hobbit that's what I call it, even though the Hobbit, you know, say about it what you will. But yeah, he's Benedict Cumber Dragon from now on. He did a great job and so, yeah, I feel like the Andy Serkis version of Smaug, which we were not getting quite yet, but it kind of tracked with Benedict Cumber Dragon's version of Smaug, which is well we'll talk about it later, but yeah, so we're. Bilbo works up the courage to enter the dragon's lair. The dragon is vast.

Jessica: 32:01

And I do want to take a second on that, Because this chapter really felt like the culmination of all that growing up that I was saying that I thought Bilbo had to do. This chapter kind of felt like validation of that. So comments like already he was a very different Hobbit from the one that run out without a pocket handkerchief from Bag-End long ago.

Jessica: 32:22

And then my favorite quote so far in the book. It was at this point that Bilbo stopped. Going on from there was the bravest thing he ever did and the tremendous things that happened afterwards were as nothing compared to it. He fought the real battle in the tunnel alone before he ever saw the vast danger that lay in wait, and I, like I, just got goosebumps.

Kritter: 32:45

I just do.

Jessica: 32:46

So again, you can't. I fully believe that you can't be brave if you aren't afraid, and so this was. He knows that what he's going into is probably terrifying beyond imagine, but he's still going to do it anyways.

Kritter: 33:01

Yeah, so he goes in. It's vast, red and gold and fast asleep. As for the treasure, to say that Bilbo's breath was taken away was no description at all. He decided for some reason to steal a fancy cup and bail Just peace out. So how did you feel about this whole sequence and would you have done the same?

Jessica: 33:27

I don't know if I would have done the same. I'm not as used to being quiet either. I think I'm more on the dwarf end of the decibels than the hobbit end this dwarfish racket. Yes, so I think that I'm notoriously noisy, so I don't think that I would have felt comfortable stealing the goblet. I understood, you know, even when he said it, you know I was like, oh, I get you, but I don't think I would have made the same choice now.

Kritter: 33:56

Yeah. So I guess dragons know their treasure down to a single cup. So it took like no time at all for Smaug to notice that it was missing. And I just think you know you would think that going into this knowing there was a dragon at the end and Gandalf being there for most of it, they might have, you know, discussed the nature of dragons and realized that that was the case. And then Bilbo essentially risks it all for a cup, which I don't think I would have done. You know, I consider myself pretty like a little foolhardy. You know hashtag Gryffindor or whatever, but I still don't think I would have done that. It's like go back, make some plans and then move on from there.

Kritter: 34:36

So Tolkien describes Smaug's rage as the rage that is only seen when rich folk that have more than they can enjoy suddenly lose something that they have long had but have never before used or wanted. So by this description alone I feel like Tolkien and I would have gotten along splendidly. So I feel like we know some things about Tolkien's background, but I think in his books he's actually like kind of clear about a lot of like borderline political positions that he has. You know what I mean. Like I feel like we would be besties. I don't know. What do you think about this?

Jessica: 35:15

I feel like it's definitely commentary about entitlement right? I don't think that he's necessarily offended by people who are affluent, but people who are affluent and arrogant about it. I feel like it very clearly makes a statement. You know, if you're well off enough to have these things, you're going to pitch a fit. If you know a never used cup is taken, you know, I felt like it was commentary to that. You know, again, I'm trying to be really careful not to Google things.

Kritter: 35:47

Fair.

Jessica: 35:48

But you know there's some material that comes into our discord where we talk about it and talks about. You know, one of the articles that was shared by one of your discord members talks about how Tolkien basically summarily just denied that it was allegory. He doesn't believe in allegory in this, that, the other thing and allegory aside, I still think there's some pretty personal views that are really clearly implied or inferred based on what he's got in here.

Kritter: 36:19

I agree, I kind of like it. I feel like I'm getting to know Tolkien by reading these books as an adult. As a kid, completely over my head, didn't even clock that at all, but now, except maybe I was like yeah, then I moved on, you know, but this is fun, it's like a little get to know you exercise and I had written a couple of things.

Jessica: 36:39

You know the glow of Smaug. I was like that's cool.

Kritter: 36:43

That is very cool.

Jessica: 36:45

From Bilbo. It was no words left to express his staggerment.

Kritter: 36:50

Yeah.

Jessica: 36:51

And then about Smaug's rage. His rage passes description. Roaring like thunder underground, he sped from his deep layer through its great door out into the huge passages of the mountain palace and up towards the front gate. I mean terrifying, legitimately terrifying, yeah.

Kritter: 37:10

So everyone's freaking out, obviously, when this happens and the dwarves are basically like Bifur and Bombur the ones who are down below, Guess they're dead. They're like fully ready to go into the tunnel without them, but then Thorin refuses to leave them and directs everyone to throw down ropes and haul them up. They all end up in the tunnel, safe and well, safe in quotes Not knowing what else to do. Bilbo offers to go back down the tunnel, as his father used to say. For some reason, every worm has its weak spot. Were you expecting this?

Jessica: 37:44

No, but I suppose I should have, because it seems like Hobbits have phrases for everything. Yeah now.

Jessica: 37:52

So I shouldn't have imagined they wouldn't have a phrase for this situation, and I will point out that when Thorin stepped in to help with getting Bombur and Bofur up, that I wrote this is a glimmer of the Thorin I thought I knew so that was a moment where Balin, Bilbo, Fili and Kili had just come back from real danger and so he told them to stay put and that he would help the other two up, and I was like this is more in line with who I thought Thorin was.

Kritter: 38:26

Yeah, that's right. We get glimpses of that hero that we're expecting, and then he goes back to his normal self.

Jessica: 38:33

Which again probably just makes him more realistic, right? Nobody's a hero all the time.

Kritter: 38:38

It's true, and also I feel like Bilbo's. This particular saying of Bilbo's just had me like why does Bilbo's dad, who the narrator has confirmed is a square, why would he have a saying about a dragon Like where'd that come from, sir? Like I?

Jessica: 38:55

can't remember his name right now and he's not. That's not even the Took side of the family.

Kritter: 38:58

That's what I mean. He's the square Like, he's like. So what are we doing With any? Yeah, so I didn't know where that came from. It was just kind of hilarious to me. So Bilbo goes back to Smaug. He goes back to Smaug, they have a nice little chat. Bilbo gets to flex his Riddler muscles once again, which I thought was fun. Did anything stand out to you from this exchange?

Jessica: 39:23

Yes, so I had highl-, so there were some of the dialog here that is represented verbatim in the movie and I will say that even watching the movie, I loved all of the stuff with Smaug and Bilbo Loved it, and it does seem that every beat that I loved came from the source material.

Kritter: 39:45

No big surprise, amazing, amazing, how that works.

Jessica: 39:47

And I remember watching it going some of this language I don't want to say antiquated, but it's, you know, a little dated. So it clearly comes from the book, it's vintage. And they did such a good job of delivering it in a believable way. But the ones that I highlighted, um, were a couple that I don't think made it into the movie- Clue finder, web cutter, stinging fly, chosen for the lucky number.

Kritter: 40:22

Mm, hmm.

Jessica: 40:23

That one I was like what's that?

Kritter: 40:25

What is that one referring?

Jessica: 40:26

to, so they weren't a party of 13.

Kritter: 40:30

Oh my God, I didn't read. I just breezed past that with that because I was like I don't get it. That's so cute. I like that. Yeah, I like that a lot.

Jessica: 40:40

So those are the ones that I liked, that I don't remember hearing in the movie.

Kritter: 40:44

So I had some that scared me, like so can I interrupt? So a few of the things he said scared me. He came from the end of a bag. I'm over here like if Smaug has Google, that doesn't you, don't? You don't go far from end of a bag to bag end. He came from under the hill, which is like there's like Under hills in the shire, whatever, and I'm just, I just feel like internet sleuths, you know, in this day and age, would be able to find Bilbo by those two clues alone.

Kritter: 41:10

Identity theft didn't quite mean the same thing in Middle Earth, I know but it just, you know he's a dragon, how like he could find out some things. It made me nervous, that's all. That's all. So in this, in this exchange, or did you have more from the like riddling situation? Not from the riddling, no, okay. So the dragon Smaug tries to turn Bilbo against the dwarves. I thought this was interesting to convince him the dwarves were going to cheat him somehow, which has reminded me about how the contract said up to a one fourteenth share, because that's the thing that I was like. That's not good enough. You have to. You know you got to guarantee that one fourteenth share, but so, like, just to jump ahead, we can definitely jump back to where the dragon is. Later Bilbo tells the dwarves about it, and Thorin's assurances that Bilbo would get to pick his one fourteenth share made me feel better about the whole thing. How did you, how did you take this little you know it was smart, I think, on Smaug's like side to try and do this.

Jessica: 42:06

Yeah, so, and then the other thing about the Smaug exchange piece is that Bilbo found himself, to quote, have an unaccountable desire seize hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. And apparently it's a thing called dragon spell. So that's, that's a thing I didn't know existed until I read the book. So he had this overwhelming desire to, to tell Smaug everything.

Kritter: 42:32

Dragon s have like a bit of a glamour you know type situation. Yeah.

Jessica: 42:37

So I do think that the dragon is desperately clever and so good at playing, you know, reading between the lines, making inferences based on you know, even as clever as Bilbo is, he's not that clever. The dragon is more clever, I guess I should say. But I was actually kind of glad that he brought it back to the dwarves and that the dwarves addressed it in such like a matter of fact way, like no, we didn't think anything of it. And of course we would ensure that you got your share, yeah, yeah that was helpful.

Kritter: 43:09

And honestly, you say that obviously the dragon was more clever than Bilbo, and true, yes, because the dragon took Barrel Rider and ran with it, as we see later. But Bilbo managed to convince the dragon to show off his underside, you know because, every worm has his weak spot and the dragon revealed his weak spot.

Kritter: 43:28

He's got a weak spot on his gem encrusted belly and for me I was like does he? I guess he just doesn't know that he's got the weak spot, otherwise why would he do that? That seemed kind of dumb to me.

Jessica: 43:41

Arrogance again right Like his crime is arrogance.

Kritter: 43:47

It's more than anything I do.

Jessica: 43:47

I had to read that two or three times, though, because I was like, wait, did he tell him that he saw a bald spot by his left breast, or was that just in his head? He said that because I was reading through so fast. Yeah, I was like, oh, tell me, you didn't give away the game. But he didn't, he didn't, that's fine. And then having to get one last dig in at Smaug before he leaves, I was like, oh, I know you're feeling your oats and all, but maybe don't piss off the dragon.

Kritter: 44:19

Yeah, the dragon shoots fire like down into the tunnel that he's trying to run through. And we get a new proverb Never laugh at live dragons. I can't say that I've ever used that one, but maybe I would like to yeah, maybe I will, or do you know?

Kritter: 44:35

I hope I don't ever run into a situation that that applies to, but I'm sure I will sometime. And now I know to use it. So Bilbo makes his way back up the tunnel with dragon fire at his heels. He snaps about an old thrush nearby, but Thorin fills him in that thrushes are good and magical birds who could communicate with Thorin's people and the people of Dale. So this was convenient. Did it surprise you the magical talking birds that are not eagles?

Jessica: 45:02

It absolutely did. But that's OK, you know, I think it's just another thing where magic is just casually inserted into a quasi non magical place. Right, dwarves are not considered magical birds, they're considered magical per se. Men are not considered magical per se, so, but it just happens to be magical and long lived thrushes OK.

Kritter: 45:28

That can talk to people. Yeah, great. So the party gets to talking about the treasure, and Thorin recalls the Arkenstone of Thrain, a great white gem that the dwarves had found beneath the roots of the mountain. I've got a little literary umami written down. It was like a globe with a thousand facets. It shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the moon. It's just so poetic. I love it. So something is telling me also, if Bilbo picked this as his one fourteenth share, we'd have a problem like this. This, I feel like this is like a little seed of things that are to come. Did you get any kind of like foreshadowing out of this?

Jessica: 46:17

Yeah, I mean.

Kritter: 46:18

I'm not going to pretend I didn't know.

Jessica: 46:20

I did know, but I did feel that the description was thorough enough to give that foreshadowing vibe. This is important. Yes, please look here.

Kritter: 46:33

Yeah, you hear this thing, Remember it. Yes, all right. So Bilbo's Spidey senses go off all of a sudden, right. And he pleads with Thorin to shut the door and Thorin obliges, just in time for the dragon to obliterate that side of the mountain trapping them. Except for the passage, of course down to the dragon's lair. Then the dragon takes off for Lake Town, seeking revenge against those who helped the barrel rider. Any thoughts at the end of chapter 13?

Jessica: 47:02

Just that it was another killer ending. They shall see me and remember who is the real King under the mountain. He rose in fire and went away south towards the running river. I mean, that's intense.

Kritter: 47:15

That's intense. Who's the real King under the mountain? Yeah, it's just. He's so fierce. I love Smaug honestly. That's why the imagery of him being chopped up into little pieces makes me sad and uncomfortable. All right, so chapter 13. Not at home. After waiting in the tunnel for as long as they could stand it, bilbo perks up. He quotes his dad again while there's life, there's hope, and third time pays for all. And he and the dwarves headed down the tunnel and Smaug is not at home. So Bilbo pokes around while the dwarves hang back, and he comes across, lo and behold the Arkens tone and pockets it, thinking he'd very much like it as this one 14th.

Kritter: 47:58

We kind of already mentioned this. Do you think this is going to cause a problem?

Jessica: 48:02

I do and I also wrote in my notes that he rationalizes, not telling them kind of like the ring and you know his internal monologue was I must tell the dwarves about it sometime.

Kritter: 48:15

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Okay, that's such a good point, the fact that he even pockets it. It goes in a pocket just like the ring. That is a really good parallel that I had not drawn.

Jessica: 48:26

And he makes a couple of comments about I'm not a real burglar, except Except things fall into my pockets and I forget about them.

Kritter: 48:38

So the oh, you go ahead.

Jessica: 48:40

I was just going to say. I wrote down that you know the dwarves are going to sit near the door and they watch Bilbo as he took the real risk. You know, again, kind of chalking it up to you're the burglar, this is your job, this is you earning your share. So to speak. And then again Balin is the one who steps up and says it's our turn to help, to step down and help Bilbo. So I really love that.

Kritter: 49:05

Balin's the real MVP here.

Jessica: 49:06

Yeah.

Kritter: 49:07

So Bilbo's torch goes out as he's like flailing around getting assaulted by bats and whatnot, which is a nightmare because you know bats carry rabies. If you ever encounter a rat PSA, not a rat, a bat PSA, you got to go get a rabies shot. It's important because those things are nasty, so anyway. So they find they all come out. Finally they're looting the treasure. It's amazing. They find a Mithril coat for Bilbo and Thorin bestows it upon him, which was fun. I feel like them finding armor and weapons and instruments and like suiting up. It reminded me a lot of looting in video games or like D&D or Diablo. Is that the kind of vibe?

Jessica: 49:46

that you got Absolutely what kind of swag, how much gear.

Kritter: 49:49

Give me the swag.

Jessica: 49:51

Tell me, dm, what did I get off of this encounter?

Kritter: 49:53

Literally. And the way they described the dwarves Thorin. Especially when they're all decked out in all of their like new armor and gem encrusted belts and all this other stuff is like I wish I could actually see that, you know, because it sounds like it's so majestic and cool, but it's so almost deluded in the moment right so.

Jessica: 50:14

I love that, bilbo. You know, the narrator tells this point blank. Bilbo is not as affected by the horde of goods as the dwarves are, and he makes a very cute cozy comment He'd rather give some of it up for a drink of something cheering out of one of Beorn's wooden bowls and I was just like yeah, dude. But he says, you know my favorite line from here this treasure is not yet won back.

Kritter: 50:42

Yeah, they're parading around as if they've won it, yeah, so yeah.

Jessica: 50:49

I thought, that that was a good reality check.

Kritter: 50:52

Yeah, bilbo is the consummate realist. He, he, he knows he stays focused where everyone else strays from the path Anyway. So Bilbo eventually peels the dwarves away from the treasure and Thorin leads them, leads them up through the mountain, through the desolated great chamber of Thror and to the front gate. They decide eventually they need to like go somewhere else in case the dragon comes back. So they strike out to a watch post where they will be more hidden from the dragon and we can introduce to the food they've been living off of, cram.

Jessica: 51:24

And.

Kritter: 51:24

Narrator lets us know that he doesn't know the recipe but does know that it's biscuitish, non perishable, sustaining but not entertaining. So I kind of love when we get to bits like this. The Wheel of Time has honey cakes, the Stormlight Archive has chow-tah. Are you a fan, or is this too much detail for you?

Jessica: 51:41

No, this is great, Especially because I think of something like this, something that is probably nutritious enough to get you by but essentially provides no enjoyment. And what a torture in and of itself that must be for Bilbo, whose whole life before now is built around the enjoyment of culinary delights.

Kritter: 52:07

So poor guy, he thinks about food so much, by the way. He really does. I honestly, every time I see it in the book I'm like I need to put this in the outline. But then I'm like, but then the outline would be twice as long. So I talk about every time that Bilbo thinks about food or drink or how hungry he is or whatever. So I don't, but I could. It's my first instinct.

Jessica: 52:32

There was one other thing that happened at the end of the chapter which is that's when you put it together that they were basically in hiding at the top of the tunnel for two and a half days, and so I feel like I'm a broken record and I say it a lot, but there are times where the passage of time is kind of skated over by the movies and stuff, and so the idea of sitting in the dark, silent, because you're worried for two and a half days before they crept out to investigate.

Kritter: 53:03

Just sounds fricking, terrible, miserable, actually the worst. Yeah, I think I recall whenever Bilbo was burglings in the elf caves he said it was like the most tiresome version part of the trip and I feel like maybe that two and a half days at the top of the dragon tunnel might have beaten it.

Jessica: 53:24

Maybe just a little. It seems like it would be very harrowing. I mean they, they were back with it up against a wall right. That whole part was broken. There's nowhere for them to go.

Kritter: 53:35

Yeah so.

Jessica: 53:37

Yeah.

Kritter: 53:38

They set up camp for the night on the way to the watch post and they noticed that in the south is a gathering of many birds. They don't know what this is. Did you have a guess at this point?

Jessica: 53:50

I kind of did.

Kritter: 53:53

What was the guess?

Jessica: 53:53

But I wasn't 100% sure. Well, I kind of thought that it would be Smaug's corpse. So again, because I know, because I've seen the movies and stuff, I knew that, right, it seemed likely that in this interim, that that is when he went to Lake Town. But I wasn't 100% sure and I immediately continued reading All right, so that's the end of the chapter.

Kritter: 54:24

Any final thoughts about all of the chapters, this whole sequence, for this week.

Jessica: 54:30

Just it was. You know it's. It's clearly the they're getting close to the end of the line. The stakes are incredibly real. They finally made it to the lonely mountain, but how they plan to take it is still very much up in the air.

Kritter: 54:47

Unclear. Yeah, I find it's so interesting that in the Hobbit, the main threat that you think is the main threat Smaug leaves. He leaves who we think the main heroes, the main good guys, are alone. And the moment that you think is going to be the climax of the movie, slash, book slash, whatever he's just, he's just peacing out and they're alone, like I find that to be so interesting and different from what you expect out of a story. Usually it's the people you've been following the whole book go to the thing that they've been trying to go to the whole time fight the big bad, and then there's a resolution and that's just not exactly how this book is going. So it's interesting.

Jessica: 55:36

Yeah, no. To be fair, most fantasy stories, the heroes that you follow the whole time are the heroes that slay the dragon.

Kritter: 55:44

That's what I mean, and I granted, like you know, we haven't gotten there yet, but that's what you would expect, and this book subverts expectations in that way, which is so funny because it's so foundational to fantasy, and yet it still subverts what you would like. In this day and age, so many people do the heroes go kill the monster that they've been chasing period, and that's just not how it goes here.

Jessica: 56:09

But I love the fact that all these years ago, in this foundational work, Tolkien introduced a very groovy twist. Yeah, you know, yeah, that's true. Whether he knew it or not, he was essentially writing a formula that decades of creatives would follow for years to come, and he wrote it with a twist which is just chef's kiss, I don't need to follow even my own formula.

Kritter: 56:40

Okay, so that's it, man. Next week we're reading chapters 14 through 19. We're finishing the book, finishing the book you guys. Yeah, pretty exciting times Okay.

Jessica: 56:52

So this is the part where we say thank you so much for tuning in to episode five of season one of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, me, Jessica Sedai and Kritter XD. Please don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod with just one T. On X, formerly known as Twitter, you can also find Kritter at Kritter XD. Kritter with a K on YouTube, TikTok and X, and at Kritter underscore XD on Instagram. You can find me by searching for shelf indulgence on TikTok, Instagram and X. That's it for us. Today. We're still playing around with catchphrases, so let us know how you feel about this one. Today's is never laugh at live dragons. Thank you and good night Bye.