But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 3: The One with Farmer Maggot, the Conspiracy, & Tom Bombadil!
The journey continues for our Party and for your hosts Kritter and Jessica! Keep pace as they discuss The Fellowship of the Ring chapters 4 through 6. Plenty of action abounds as they encounter Farmer Maggot—who is not what Jessica was expecting; find out about a Secret and a Conspiracy; and finally meet the Legend himself, Tom Bombadil!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
The journey continues for our Party and for your hosts Kritter and Jessica! Keep pace as they discuss The Fellowship of the Ring chapters 4 through 6. Plenty of action abounds as they encounter Farmer Maggot—who is not what Jessica was expecting; find out about a Secret and a Conspiracy; and finally meet the Legend himself, Tom Bombadil!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Hi and welcome to But Are there Dragons, a podcast where two friends decide to read a book one of them hasn't and go through it a few chapters at a time.
Kritter:I'm your host Kritter.
Jessica:And I'm your host, Jess.
Kritter:And we're continuing this adventure with JRR Tolkien's the Fellowship of the Ring, with me as the Lord of the Rings veteran.
Jessica:And me as the Lord of the Rings first-timer.
Kritter:In this, our third episode of Season 2, we're going to discuss chapters 4 through 6. Before we dive in Jessica, how are you feeling?
Jessica:Good, life's a little crazy right now, getting all kinds of vendors and stuff sorted out for a big event coming up for me later this year. How about you?
Kritter:Oh, you know, just wintering, winter's wintering, basically my skin is dry, you know, like it's dark outside and I don't even get snow, as like the consolation prize for all of that at least, yet. So basically I'm just hoping for a big winter storm that I can just sit at home and look out the window and admire. And I know not a lot of people, not everyone loves snow, but I do, and I haven't really gotten any yet this year and it's sad.
Jessica:I'm supposed to be staring down about two weeks of it not necessarily huge storms but, something every day for about two weeks, so we'll see how that goes. I honestly believe, if you're going to be cold because I live in New England that if you're going to be cold, there might as well be snow.
Kritter:Exactly, it's not always a popular opinion, but it's my opinion, especially in this day and age where you can telework, or at least depending Like I can telework, and so I'm just like, yeah, give me the snow. I would love to look out the window and see it, because it's cold and again, my skin is dry, the sun is only up for certain hours of the day, and so I feel like I'm being punished of all that's happening and I don't have the pretty snow.
Jessica:At least be pretty, yeah, 100%.
Kritter:Yeah, okay, well, same page then, at least. But yeah, and then we're traveling with the Hobbits. Are you getting nervous because they're being pursued?
Jessica:I am, and these chapters were a little intense. We get stuff happening, get action.
Kritter:We did get some action, so let's dive into the action. Book one, chapter four a shortcut to mushrooms. So the Hobbits wake up without the elves and Frodo wants to think. Pippin is offended by this proposition. Thinking at breakfast couldn't be. Pippin definitely Frodo's, preoccupied by the dangers facing him and essentially gives Sam an out. Like Sam, you don't have to do this. This is dangerous. Whatever Sam declines to take it, saying he'd go with Frodo if he climbed to the moon and to face any black riders that tried to stop him. So we talked about Sam a little bit last episode. We're getting more. Sam, how are you feeling?
Jessica:about him. He's a precious, precious boy and I love him.
Kritter:I know.
Jessica:I know who my new crush is.
Kritter:Oh, way ahead of you. And.
Jessica:I mean I'm not surprised, right? You know I loved him in the movies, but so far he is right on point to be the bestest boy.
Kritter:He's the golden retriever of the series, without a doubt.
Jessica:And so and I also had a brief Sam moment at the top of the chapter where he's realizing that meeting your heroes isn't quite all it's cracked up to be, you know so, and he takes that in stride and it takes it in a very thoughtful way. So up till now, again, we haven't had a lot from Sam, but it might be easy to think of him as kind of vapid or empty headed. But he does seem to take meeting the elves and what it means to him in a thoughtful manner.
Jessica:So I thought you know. I took note of that while I was reading.
Kritter:Yeah, they ask you know how was it, how was it meeting them or whatever? And he was just like I don't know if what I think matters at all Matters.
Jessica:Yeah, which is like and that's a very mindful answer, it's a very self aware answer.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, good, like, good for him, and it sounds like he had some conversations with them, you know, outside of Frodo's hearing, and he just wanted everyone to know that he was going to stick with Frodo to the very end, by golly, because that's I don't know if it's because it's his job, it just he, just he seems to just feel that that's his purpose, which I think is kind of awesome, like having a purpose that you know to pursue.
Jessica:Yeah, and that level of loyalty definitely feels like it's beyond, you know, employer employee relationship. You know Sam really perceives Frodo in some way in which he feels an intense loyalty and it carries through in every interaction at this point so far.
Kritter:Yeah. So Frodo decides it's time to travel across country and Pip is pretty skeptical. But they traverse through some rough terrain. Black riders constantly on their heels. Finally, they encounter farmer Maggot's land and this plays out way differently than it does in the movies. So how do you feel about the way it played out in the book?
Jessica:So I'll say one thing before. That is just that, as we were getting back on the road, I found myself immediately because I wrote it down I found myself immediately going like I wonder how Merry's making out. So I am seeing this time on the road for these three building and fleshing out how they interact. But you know, for me in this moment Merry is definitely missing and I wonder how he's making out. I'm wondering if he's okay.
Jessica:And then I immediately went into the farmer Maggot thing too, and I don't know why, but in my mind I had assumed that farmer Maggot was a quote unquote big person. I thought, that he was a man. I never thought that he was. You know, I don't think we ever saw him on screen. I just think that he grew human size vegetables. I think I made an assumption. I don't know how to say that without sounding ridiculous.
Jessica:But I remember them like hauling out carrots and stuff and these were huge in their arms, because hobbits are little people and I understand that.
Kritter:When he's got big dogs and there's a lot like. Honestly, to this day, I'm over here like farmer maggot might be a big person, although he does talk about. Doesn't he talk about it being weird that they were big people around?
Jessica:Yeah, and he talks about. You know how he exhibits that same hobbit tendency that anybody from anywhere else, even if it's a shire but in another part of the shire- they're a little off. They're peculiar, they're queer, they're this. You know what I mean, so they get you know. That's probably the one downside I'm noticing about the hobbits. They get a little insular. They stick to where they are, even if you're a hobbit from. You know the next farthing over.
Kritter:Yeah you can't even call them nationalists because it's not even like anyone outside the shire is bad. It's like anyone outside my neighborhood. If they're in little orbit and anything outside of that you are peculiar, yeah, although I will say that I feel like now, after having reread and remembering Farmer Maggot, that the movies are just pure Farmer Maggot slander right, because he, like in this chapter, kind of saved the day.
Jessica:I mean just gonna say he was a big help. Yeah, first off, you know he's got a brain in his head. He's reading between the lines about what's happening. He's giving them the heads up that the black rider is looking for them, and he gives them a way to make it down the road and feeds them, which we know with hobbits is always a big deal.
Kritter:He's always made big deal and gives them mushrooms, which is so funny because Frodo has a history with Farmer Maggot, which I found hilarious because Frodo used to live in Buckland with the Brandy bucks.
Kritter:That's how he grew up until Bilbo kind of adopted him, took him under his wing and brought him over to Bagot, and so Frodo having a extra special affinity for mushrooms apparently couldn't help himself, but to come onto Farmer Maggot's land and try to steal his mushrooms, which got him like banned for life, essentially Like, the next time you are here, I will stick my dogs on you. And then Frodo shows back up, petrified a Farmer Maggot who doesn't even really remember him. I mean, he does eventually remember him, but he doesn't really care anymore, which I think is so funny. This, the backstory I don't know, especially because in the movies Merry and Pippin were the ones stealing, yes, and the book Pippin is the one who's like chums with Farmer Maggot.
Jessica:Yes, he's like yeah, he's like no, he's fine if you just walk down his driveway and talk to him like a person.
Kritter:Right.
Jessica:Like totally different. Yeah, no, I was like of course Frodo was a notorious rascal, of course he was, yeah, and the whole. You know we would do shady stuff for a mushroom, okay.
Kritter:Noted you know, yeah, we're trying to think of what I would do shady stuff, for you know who's like what would get me to sneak onto somebody's land and take their stuff? I can't think of a vegetable. I can't think of a vegetable, or like mushrooms are vegetables right? Or like a root thing of fungus they're a fungus.
Jessica:Yeah.
Kritter:Which is an eventful right. Definitely not a fungus or a vegetable, because I'm not a bit, I'm a texture girly, and so mushrooms are tricky Like they.
Jessica:Yeah, I love mushrooms.
Kritter:Yeah, I do.
Jessica:I love mushrooms, but not enough to like risk getting somebody's big big dogs sicked on me. No, thank you.
Kritter:Yeah, pass, like I'll go buy them at the store. Yeah, it's been cheap because, like, well, I guess, I guess Frodo was more well off once he moved in, with Bilbo, probably. But like the Brandy Bucks are fit, they're like a whole clan. Surely they're going to, you know, provide some mushrooms. I don't know, we're going, we're going off, like we're not us, yeah, wandering far afield here, but yeah, I'm not sure there's anything that could get me onto somebody's land. When that somebody had threatened me with big dogs, I think I would just pass. It's very sandlot though.
Jessica:Yeah, and I almost feel kind of like the sandlot vibe right, like it's not about the mushrooms at that point, it's about the sneak.
Kritter:Yeah, yep, which is why Pippin's like just go up to him, say hey, it's, everything's going to be fine. So yeah, this was a cute little sequence. Farmer Maggot, as you said, gave them a ride on his wagon, which was, in my opinion, very wheel of time. Eye of the World coded, which I know like explicitly, eye of the World is an homage to Fellowship of the Ring, yeah, Like yeah. It's probably fully inspired by that.
Jessica:Oh gosh, I've heard that so many times. I wonder if my next reread is going to hit different.
Kritter:It might. It definitely might. I had forgotten about this wagon thing and the moment I read it I was like, oh, there's another, we've got fairies, we've got wagon riding, we've got all kinds of stuff that's very wheel of time coded. So then they're on this wagon. It's nighttime. Well, I even missed like Farmer Maggot served them supper. It was a lovely time with his humongous family.
Jessica:Humongous family. I have children.
Kritter:Yeah, which was very quaint. And then he offers to take them on the road to where they were going at night and they accept, and so they eventually run into a black rider that approaches them and you know everyone's getting real tense, real scared, and it's Merry. So I've heard about this part and I thought it was a black rider. Did it fool you?
Jessica:It did for like half a second and then, when it was Merry, I was genuinely relieved. Yeah, because just at the beginning of this reading block I was like I really want to know how Merry's doing, so it felt timely.
Kritter:So we talked. I can't remember even already if this was in last episode or this episode earlier, but I learned the word worriting and I looked it up. Yes, yeah, I looked it up and it's just an English. It's a dialectical thing in England. So if you like, are out there and you know you're in our discord or you're watching on YouTube or something, leave in the comments if you're like an England person or from London or whatever. If you've heard the word worriting generally, aside from in this book, because I had to look it up just to make sure it wasn't another like Tolkien writing or spelling a word weird, that's what I thought it was, but no, it's real.
Jessica:It's a real thing. Yeah, I kind of chalked it up to Hobbit Slang.
Kritter:Yeah, because it sounds Hobbit-y, because it's got a word Hobbit like it sounds similar. But no, it's from England apparently. So I wrote that Frodo getting a basket of mushrooms for Mrs Maggot was cute because it like came full circle. He used to steal them, then he got them, whatever. But that's it for chapter four. Do you have any final thoughts before we go to five?
Jessica:Just that the black rider in the book has a much more advanced vocabulary than how they are portrayed in the movie. Sniffing, screaming.
Kritter:Sniffing, screaming yeah and just shired baggins over and over again.
Jessica:Oh, right, yeah, so I was even going back to I think that that was last episode where I said who's talking to Gaffer? Nobody wants to ask, nobody wants to follow up. But I was like if it was a real conversation, that wouldn't make sense with the black riders, the way that I understand them, and then to hear Sam recall Gaffer's conversation and then Mr. Maggot to share his conversation, I was like, oh, these are actual conversations.
Jessica:These aren't just incredibly intimidating figures that are just screeching shire and baggins over and over again. Baggins, yep, no. I mean it's nightmare fuel on its own? No doubt it is.
Kritter:But yeah, knowing they can actually speak yikes Gross. We don't like it. So all right, that's the end of chapter four.
Jessica:We move to chapter five. Chapter four was a brief one it was.
Kritter:Yeah, we move to chapter five, which is a conspiracy unmasked. So we get a little description of Buckland, a colony from the shire. It's got hobbits that like to swim, which is different, and it's right on the border of the old forest, like right on the border of the old forest. Did you realize that Merry was from such a unique family?
Jessica:No, no, I had no idea I had heard Merid oc Brandyb uck in passing. That was the extent of what I knew about Brandy Buck.
Kritter:Yeah, Like I didn't have any idea that he lived a couple days ride, you know, from no bag end the center of the Shire. I never would know, and so it's that end.
Jessica:I didn't realize the Shire was kind of spread out as much as it is you know what I mean or that it had such distinct parts, like what we've learned so far in this book.
Kritter:Yeah, I actually. So I know Leigha in episode one was talking about how she was like consulting the map just to get the lay of the land, and I didn't do that before I started reading. I was like, okay, we're in, we're in the Shire, like we're at Frodo's house, there's what's to know about the map. And then when they started describing Buckland, I was like wait, like okay, what? Like where is it how? Where is it in relation to? Well, first of all, because later in the chapter, I think, Frodo has a dream about the ocean, and that's what inspired me, because I was like are they by the ocean? I have to be like are we near the ocean right now? We're not, it's, we're not.
Jessica:So I had that moment too, but also like just the fact that it takes them that long to get now. Granted, they're little they have short legs but it takes them that long to get from one part of the Shire to another part of the Shire. And genuinely never would have thought that before.
Kritter:Yes, right, right. And then also like being on the edge of the like forest, actual scary forest that scary forest. I didn't realize either, because it didn't come up. I don't think in the Hobbit.
Jessica:Yeah, no, we didn't get Buckland in any at all. Yeah, right, because they didn't give. They didn't give us the storyline with Frodo getting a new home, right. So I this is where I'd written the note that I thought it was funny that each pocket of hobbits think that the other is weird. And then my first note, other than that for this, is that Sam's the only member of the party who's never been over the river. So I remember that beat from the movies.
Jessica:I thought that it was people, having had a similar experience before, in my mind and for me it could relate. So seeing that, even though it didn't look the same, it was mentioned in the books meant something to me and stood out to me. Yeah, this is the farthest from home Sam has ever been.
Kritter:I do wonder if Sam, rather than Frodo, is going to end up being our relatable king for the trilogy, and I say that without talking about anything in the future, just what we know, right. So we've got the Tooks, who are Hobbit royalty essentially, like you know. To boil it down, we've got the Brandy books, who are also this big, well respected clan you know plenty, wealthy, weird in the sense that they've got their own colony, whatever. So Merry is a unique, also in the high class kind of, and he's friends with Frodo, who is also one of the rich kids. Right, he lives with.
Kritter:Bilbo, he's got treasure? Well, he's, you know. He's selling his house, he's buying another house, he's at the real estate market. And then you've got Sam, who is a working class little guy who hangs out at the pub and, you know, talks to his friends about things that his cousins have seen in the woods, like he is the every man or every Hobbit.
Jessica:He's the guy who there's oodles of relatability there.
Kritter:Yeah, and so it's just so. And the way they treat him too is just like you can tell that there's this like class differential at play and again I've said this before I'm curious to see how it develops the more they get to know Sam and the more Sam proves himself. But it's also shown in the fact that Sam hasn't traveled as much as they have, which is kind of reflective of the real world right Like, and there's an age gap, right?
Jessica:I think we mentioned that Sam is a little bit younger, but I think Pippin is too, I think.
Kritter:Oh okay, I think like in I'm pretty sure they're closer to the same age, but I but differently than what we went through with Bilbo.
Jessica:I thought that Bilbo was about coming into himself in terms of confidence, whereas I would hope that this journey reflects more the breaking down those classist barriers in those external people's perception. You know what I mean. So that journey is about Sam, but it's not Sam's journey necessarily.
Kritter:Right, Sam's kind of inspiring it probably, but Hopefully, Hopefully. But it's other people's journey for sure. So, yeah, I think that was a good indicator. Another indicator of this class difference, of this experience difference and how, and it gave me just the hint that it might be Sam that we're vibing with a little more than our fancy lads. Yes, I feel like I called Bilbo a fancy lad at one point and it applied, but he was still insanely relatable. But we'll see how this goes.
Jessica:I'm interested to see how it feels, because I feel like there's multiple protagonists that can have a journey here, whereas last time it was very much Bilbo's journey, and even as we closed on that book, for me that was the most pertinent thread, the most engaging piece of the read for me, and I feel like this is going to be more about the ensemble, the fellowship, as it were.
Kritter:For sure. No, I totally agree with that Fun fact. Actually and this is just kind of just a throw it into the middle of this conversation and it doesn't fully relate but since you said fellowship in my TikTok, where I was looking into Tolkien's life, he actually and I think you actually have a copy of the book that reflects this but the Lord of the Rings came quite a while after the Hobbit.
Kritter:It was like the 30s versus the 50s, I want to say, or something like that, and it was inspired because his publisher, the Hobbit, was so well received that Tolkien's publisher asked for more in the universe, and so Tolkien tried to give them the Silmarillion, which he had been working on even before the Hobbit, and they were like and it was like a version of the Silmarillion, right, it had some of the stories like Beren and Luthien and some of the famous stories now.
Kritter:But the publisher was like I'm sure the people are going to like this, and so they asked for a Hobbit sequel. So Tolkien, over this span of years, wrote the, what we call the trilogy, but it was supposed to be one book, but they thought it was like that was like too risky to print that much of right up front, whatever, and so they basically split it into three and publish it over the span of two years. And so it's really how I say that the Lord of the Rings is my favorite movie, because I think of them all as one movie. I always watch them in sequence. Whatever, the Lord of the Rings is also intended to be one book, and that's what you have. Right, you just got a big hunker of a book with all three of them.
Kritter:So when it says like book one. That's kind of why like, because it's separated in a weird way.
Jessica:Well, and even the way that those are broken up, the fellowship of the ring is two books. You know there's six books by classification. So both in the file, the way that I downloaded it for my e-reader, and in my physical copy, it is all as one tome and I kind of dig that. You know the other thing that I learned today was that the Silmarillion was post-posthumously, was published posthumously. I did not realize that.
Kritter:Yeah, it's too bad, but I guess the publisher was still surprised by how successful it was, because we've talked about this and you will get a taste if you ever read it. But it's harder to read just generally, you know, harder to get into. It's much more of a history book vibe, and so you know they were like nobody's gonna care about this. But everybody loved Tolkien's work so much that they're like eating it up.
Kritter:They love it, they're into it, and so, yeah, they should have known. I wish they would have published it while he was alive, because I'm sure he would have gotten a lot of satisfaction after like if people received it well, which they ended up doing so anyways.
Kritter:Yeah, that was a nice little interjection into the story, a little bit about Tolkien. So they're crossing the river right, there's a ferry. Looking back after crossing the river on the ferry, the hobbits see a figure creeping around the water's edge. Merry gets pretty freaked out, but Frodo insists they get inside before they talk about it. So Merry offers well, so they get there. They get to Frodo's new house, Crick Hollow, and Mary offers Frodo dinner and Frodo points out that they'd already had one, but that another, yeah, would probably be just the ticket. They make Frodo's house any favorite moments from this part.
Jessica:Honestly, the second supper would be nice. But also I got so sentimental about Merry really settled things for him and I said it before, I'll say it again like I have maybe two or three humans in my life that would do such a thing for me, like that is just such an incredibly sweet thing to do To go and set that up for you ahead of time, and I just I got very sentimental over that. I can't explain it above and beyond that. Like not everybody has somebody in their life that would do that.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, there's a lot to be said and it's just the beginning of this, but Tolkien's portrayal of like non-toxic, soft, caring male friendship is just so nice to read and that's what we're getting from Merry. They're just. He's just an excellent friend all around and you love to see it. I'm over here like my parents would do that for me, right? But as far as like friends, like people I'm not related to, granted, these guys are all like cousins, not Sam but the rest of them, but still like no, no, I don't think my cousins.
Jessica:I have one like my best, my, my maid of honor. She would do that.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:She would do that.
Kritter:I'm not giving some of my, some of my family enough credit because, like I remember, for my wedding, for example, they all like stayed up long hours because we like decorated our own you know ourselves, and they stayed up for a really long time the night before my wedding to decorate, make sure the reception hall looks good and everything. So like maybe I do, but still like not a ton, not a ton of people would do this.
Jessica:But even just like giving it the recognition right Like that's not a thing that just anybody will do. That's, that's a real level of closeness. It really is.
Kritter:And moving sucks, so like not only was it like a favor, it was moving for someone like yeah, yeah crazy.
Jessica:So I was just like. I can't overstate how much I love that his friends are on to his BS and are conspiring against him in the background and planning it since April, like, oh no, we've been watching you.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, they left after the birthday, like Frodo. Well, they left on the day after the birthdays, which was September 22nd. So yeah, since the spring Six months, yeah, six months.
Jessica:They've been on to him and conspiring.
Kritter:Yeah, and they. And even though they knew that Frodo was going to be leaving the Shire, they still did this favor for him. I'm like stuck on the fact that they moved for him but he's not going to be living in this house and they still set it up for him so that his little plan, his little trick, his conspiracy, so that people wouldn't notice that he was leaving, would be as flawless as possible Basically like. These are some good guys.
Jessica:Yes, so I will say that's a little bit further down. Their friend, Freda Gar, brought clothes. So first off, you forget that, Freda. I forgot that Freda Gar is there, right Like in my mind, it's just the fellowship hobbits I know that's terrible.
Kritter:Well, you didn't know before you read it, Like he wasn't in the movie.
Jessica:I was like oh yeah, no, there's another guy here and he has brought clothing to dress as Frodo to keep the. Ruse alive and my Spidey sense got really upset, like I did not like anything about this. Knowing that the black rider already knows about Crick hollow, I got very uncomfortable with that. I thought that it was very sweet and naive of them, but me going oh, this poor friend is going to wind up.
Kritter:I am worried about him at this point.
Jessica:I am worried for Fredagar.
Kritter:Really, really worried, so there's a couple of things that I wrote down. First of all, we talked about the mushrooms. They made a point to say that hobbits love mushrooms more than humans love anything. This is actually what they said, which I think is amazing, so good for them. First of all, again, I'm a texture girly. It's not mushrooms for me, but I'm happy they have that.
Jessica:You, do you.
Kritter:Yeah, it's some conversation and I think it was either Merry or Pippie Merry or Pippin who said this, but it came up again that Sam would literally jump down a dragon's throat to save Frodo. He would do anything for Frodo, which is so like he's got the best friends. You really want that in your life, and so it was funny that we talked about how they were expiring since Expiring, Conspiring since April, and Sam was their inside man and Frodo was like can't keep a secret, but then also happy that he didn't keep the secret basically.
Jessica:So I don't know which was the bigger upset, so I loved the whole thing, right.
Kritter:Like all of it.
Jessica:I couldn't get enough. I understand the whole. Can I trust any of you? Blah, blah, blah. But the whole thing, I gobbled it up and I don't know which the bigger upset was that Sam was the inside man or that Merry knew about the ring, those two pieces of information. I was like, oh my gosh, I wrote it in all caps. Merry knows about the ring.
Kritter:And you know what's so funny to me is that the reason that Merry knows about the ring. It goes back to the Sackville Baggins, Sackville.
Jessica:Baggins.
Kritter:They ruin everything, but yeah, they are winners. Bilbo, what was trying to hide from Sackville Baggins is didn't realize Merry was nearby, put the ring on and then eventually took it back off and Merry witnessed the whole thing. So he's like, uh, OK, so yeah, he knows about the ring. These Baggins are not nearly as sneaky as they think they are.
Jessica:It's basically the moral story. But also then I flash back to Sam walking by the window whistling yeah, going, ok, not only were you not gardening, but you were being a spy. You were being a legit spy. You weren't just dropping eaves.
Kritter:Yeah, you were being a spy. Yeah, although wait, when would OK hold on? When did that? When did the conversation with Gandalf happen?
Jessica:It was three months before they left, so the conspiring had already started, right.
Kritter:That wouldn't make sense. Frodo wasn't planning to leave until then. So what were they conspiring about? You know what I mean? Ok, is this a plot hole? Did we? We'll have to look back?
Jessica:No, there's no way we're. There's no way. That came from me, but that's what I thought of when they revealed that he was the inside man and I was like, oh so what were you doing by that window?
Kritter:I think he was just being Samwise likes a bit of info. He likes.
Jessica:Yeah, or maybe he really is just an eavesdropper.
Kritter:I think he was just dropping some eaves Like can't blame him. I would have done the same. If you're overhearing the backstory of the ring, the one ring of power, are you? Going to be like oh, I need to go trim the hedges. No, you're going to be like oh, this non-existent. No, wait time out.
Jessica:Sorry. So Pippin, merry, one of them, whoever. So Merry saw him take off, saw Bilbo take off the ring like, saw that whole exchange, so had his suspicions and in that dialogue also talks about how I've been expecting you to want to leave sooner or later.
Kritter:I did think it was going to be sooner. So it is possible there was already conspiring going on. True.
Jessica:It just wasn't in the context of he's leaving and he needs a cover story and he needs a house in Crick Hollow.
Kritter:OK, that makes sense. That makes sense Because Frodo has been thinking about leaving for a long time. So they would just that makes sense, they would know their friend. So I guess we didn't mention this, but they had like a cute little bath scene. Do you remember that?
Jessica:Who are you, Elaine, with your three bathtubs?
Kritter:This is a Wheel of Time reference, in case you're curious.
Jessica:This is a Wheel of Time reference.
Kritter:I haven't yet, but yeah. So they show up and they're like, oh, I could really go for a bath. And then Pippin's like well, how are we going to decide who goes first? Which is so? Pippin Like first of all, in all these chapters, pippin from what you know in the movies, right is like this irresponsible, hilarious. Whatever Pippin in the books is this. Like he is the one who gets tired first, the one who's like we obviously can't over exert ourselves. Like he's the one that's like we shouldn't go through the woods because it'll be hard. He's like he's the I don't. I can't describe him completely, but I don't want to say that he's the lazy one.
Jessica:But kind of Right, and so he's a little bit of like a coaster, like he wants to kind of minimal effort.
Kritter:He's a scamp. He is the Mat Cauthon If we are like we're throwing tons of Wheel of Time references into this, but he is the scamp of this group which we knew from the movies. But it's so evident here when he's literally like I can't walk another step, we need lunch and it's like 1130. But. But so they need these baths and they're like OK, who gets to go bathed first? And Merry's like you're joking? Right, we hooked you up, we've got three bathtubs, we've got this guy Ready, like this is. He is a. What is the like, Marie? Something there's like a guide to being a hostess.
Jessica:Marie Kondo.
Kritter:Marie Marie is like red Marie Kondo. He knows exactly how to be a constant host and he's nailing it, I think, in this chapter. But it's Kondo, doesn't matter, kondo, I think. Ok, you know I haven't actually read it, but I have a friend.
Jessica:You mean there?
Kritter:He talks about her, so whatever Doesn't matter. And then there was one other thing from this little conversation that I wanted to mention, which is they sang a song that, after they all agreed to go on adventure together, that was styled after the Dwarves adventuring song from the Hobbit.
Jessica:And.
Kritter:I don't know if you said you sometimes like look up how the song sound. Did you look up this one?
Jessica:I didn't Well. So it said in the description that it was done in the rhythm of that dwarven song and that was hard for me because in my mind it is how it was in the movie and so that's really, really slow and I was like these guys seem a little bit more chipper. Maybe they did it a little faster tempo. But in my mind it sounded like really deep dwarven voices, just with different words, going really slow OK.
Kritter:Well, I was just going to say that, if you have access to Andy Serkis's rendition, of it recommended because it was different from the Dwarves version and that it's not so deep, right, but it's still just like the pacing. It's so nice, it's like the Hobbit. It feels like a Hobbit version of that Dwarf song which is amazing.
Kritter:What it is. But that was. I don't always love the songs. I've said this before. I don't like musicals and I'm not a big songs person. But this one I really liked personally. So Frodo falls asleep that night. He dreams again. He's above creatures in the wood sniffing him out. He hears the ocean, sees a tower and a bright light. Did you read anything into this dream?
Jessica:Like did you think yeah, have you met me, ok, ok.
Kritter:What like? What are we thinking?
Jessica:So the quote was sounds he had never heard in his waking life, though it had often troubled his dream. So, given the context that this block of reading for me was about holy smokes, the ring has been affecting him for 17 years I immediately went is the ring doing this to him? Because I don't know what the white tower is or its proximity to ocean.
Kritter:I really don't.
Jessica:So in my mind I'm like this is the ring showing him something that it probably wants him to go towards. That was the assumption that I made. That was the. That was how I perceived it.
Kritter:OK. So for me I vaguely recall and please correct me if I'm misremembering, but I vaguely recall in maybe the prologue, where they mention that whenever they're talking about the ocean for some reason, that there are like one or two white towers by like on the coast or something. I'm vaguely recalling that. So, that being that, memory is not wrong In my mind, I thought it was more prophetic than anything else, based on what we all know, because you've read, you've seen the movies, based on where Frodo's headed in the end, but then part of the dream also involved like his pursuit, like people chasing him, evil things, him trying to climb something, and so it did just feel kind of like almost an allegory to his whole journey and what he's about to face right, this terrible burden.
Jessica:What he's about to go through.
Kritter:Yeah, exactly Like his arc, all in just one little dream. And I feel like Bilbo had some like mildly prophetic type dreams also, you know, or like he would wake up from dreams when no one else would because like he could sense something was wrong. They have these like Spidey senses that I don't know, like maybe the Baggins is there, they can see things. They've got the site, but I guess.
Jessica:Frodo has been walking around going. I wonder if I'll ever see this hill again. Yeah, you know, you know, turns out when his friends are confessing to what they've been doing, they've been like well, we've been watching you walk around going. I wonder if I'll ever see this hill again.
Kritter:It seems obvious like what your plan was, but who are we to assume what you're doing? So, yeah, that's an interesting take, though that it's the ring feeding him these deeds. Could you go either way? Yeah, all right, so that's the end of chapter six. Any other thoughts for that before we move on?
Jessica:For chapter five.
Kritter:Nope, oh right, that's the end of chapter five, but we're good.
Jessica:Okay, I was like wait no, we still have one more.
Kritter:Okay, we still have one more. Sorry, we still have the old forest. So they get up early. Frodo takes I just said that the pippin's the like lazy one, but Frodo takes after Bilbo and gets up last. Yes, we're walking up. Basically we get a bit of literary umami here. Once they get outside, the leaves of trees were glistening and every tree was dripping, the grass was gray with cold dew. Everything was still and far away, noises seemed near and clear, just chattering in a yard, someone closing a door of a distant house. So I am, I'm a bit of a country girl. I hate the music, so don't like give me any recommendations because I won't take them. But I've had my fair share of crisp country mornings and this description just transported me to them Like it was perfect. It fully captured it for me. So do you have any favorite like bits of literary umami from this chapter?
Jessica:The same one. The same one, but mostly because so. For me, the takeaway was I had written down we must away ere break a day. But must we? Lol, the struggle is real for the hobbits. And so when I was reading that I thought it was gorgeous and very evocative, right Like, took me right back, but I felt so in that moment the connection for me was it sounds like this is the first time you've seen the world pre dawn. Yeah, so just kind of amplified it just a little bit, added a little bit more zhush, if you will.
Kritter:Sure, Absolutely Well. And what's so funny is we were talking about Pippin and I just now remembering something that he said the night before, which is Frodo's talking about like getting up before dawn or whatever, and Pippin's like do you really mean to get up before dawn?
Jessica:Yeah, like are you sure, Are you?
Kritter:sure about that and in my mind I was like he's not wanting to get up early, but then again he gets up before Frodo. So I wasn't giving him, I wasn't giving him enough credit, so my apologies to them. So the description of the old forest, because that's where they're headed. They go straight into the old forest. It's a little troubling, not so oppressive as Mirkwood, from the Hobbit probably, but it sounds more alive. So, given the description that we got from Merry, would you rather traverse Mirkwood or the old forest?
Jessica:I don't know. So even going into it I was like Merry is very dismissive of the danger that the forest presents and Mirkwood was hella scary, yep. But I, yeah. So in my mind I'm like what could possibly go wrong in another forest? And then this forest says here, hold my beer. I don't know, you know.
Kritter:I think so. This is what I've concluded, because I wrote this question down and then thought about it for myself and I think because and I'm probably just, it's probably recency biased but I think that the old forest would be worse because it's actively trying to get them lost. Like it is alive, it is moving them in certain directions. It sounds like not the best place to be generally and there are things that ultimately try to kill them, unlike Mirkwood. But Mirkwood they had multiple wise people telling them one rule stay on the path. And I am really good at following rules. Like you have no idea. I mean, I have a little bit of an idea, so like if they had told me that I really want to believe for myself that I would have stayed on the path and made it through, whereas this there is no path, like the path is meaningless because they mess with the path.
Kritter:So that seems more sinister in my opinion.
Jessica:But at the same time I'm like so Merry, Merry seems very dismissive of it. Freda Gar is like not, no, but heck, no, never will I ever. And so you know we have two opposing viewpoints, but they're both relatively squishy hobbits, and Merry has lived to tell the tale.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Obviously only in daylight and things like that. So going into this right now, not knowing for sure what kind of danger it represents, I would have said Mirkwood right, like I would rather walk the old forest than walk Mirkwood, because Mirkwood is terrifying.
Kritter:Mirkwood.
Jessica:Mirkwood.
Kritter:It's not taught.
Jessica:It's not hard.
Kritter:Hey, you know old forest Mirkwood, walk Mirkwood. There's some problems, it's late.
Jessica:So, anyways, that would be. I would take on the old forest first that's fair. I mean like Mirkwood had the spiders and the elves, and that was scarring.
Kritter:And the sleepy water. There's a lot of problems with Mirkwood, don't get me wrong. Stay on that path and probably fine.
Jessica:Of course I say that. And then my very next note is all in cast the trees, attack the hedge Seems relevant.
Kritter:Yeah Right. So we mentioned the fact that in Brandy in Buckland there's this hedge fence. It's like a hedge wall that separates Buckland from the old forest like protected or whatever, and so, as Jessica just said, the forest was pissed about it, essentially, and started to attack the hedge to like try and get it to come down, and so they fought back with fire and now there's this antagonistic relationship between this active forest and the hobbits, kind of. So the fact that Mary is so casual about going in to me is just mind blowing and I guess, like if you get used to something dangerous, then it doesn't feel as dangerous anymore.
Jessica:Well, because there's always a chance that when somebody says the forest seems alive, maybe they're just being flowery. Yeah, when you start talking about the forest actively attacking your hedge. This is no longer for color, this is different.
Kritter:Well and then Frodo sings like a little song, and the song involves, you know, taking down the tree or something. It's mildly threatening, and a branch falls a little too close to him.
Jessica:You know, and so you're just like uh and Mary's like, maybe don't sing.
Kritter:Yeah, maybe let's not sing especially about the demise of the tree. So I don't know. It's great, they're both woods. Not the best to be in, I think. So the hobbits get lured in at a certain point. After a long time of travel, I fly flies and heat and sleep, creeping out of the ground and up their legs and falling softly out of the air about their heads and eyes right by an old willow tree.
Kritter:It's an attack by old man willow and it's honestly the stuff of nightmares Like that's horrifying. So any specific thoughts from this little battle sequence?
Jessica:Well, the first random factoid that didn't matter is it made me look up a new word.
Kritter:Oh.
Jessica:I had never looked up the word Hoary H O A R Y.
Kritter:I noted that one as well. And what's the definition?
Jessica:Uh, grayish white, oh, so yeah like graying, I guess.
Kritter:I thought it was more like gnarled, but I guess, yeah, like gnarled, but okay, no so the hold on.
Jessica:I can tell you hold on, let's be accurate, shall we?
Kritter:Yeah, we shall.
Jessica:There it is, right there a biscuit. Hold on grayish, white cori cobwebs of a person having gray or white hair aged.
Kritter:Aged, All right. Well, that is not what I would have guessed. I've only ever context-closed that definition and it would never have been that.
Jessica:I didn't even try and I was like I'm just going to look like is this English stuff? Is this a UK word? And I just don't know. I think of myself as a relatively well read for a high school dropout and all that.
Kritter:Yeah, I would just watch me someday be like next to I don't know something that's gnarled and I'm like that thing is hoary. Not that I ever would say that Now you know. Now I know not to, unless it is grayish, white and aged yeah.
Jessica:So old man willow yeah, and that's the worst, the worst.
Kritter:So it like sucks in Merry and Pippin essentially, yeah.
Jessica:One of them is one and seduces, not seduces, but lures in Frodo as well, and you know the way that it describes how it lured in Frodo. Versus what Sam saw when he found Frodo was a little bit of a disconnect. You know, Frodo thought that he was just, you know, starting to nap.
Kritter:But when?
Jessica:Sam comes over. It kind of sounded to me like the tree was trying to drown him.
Kritter:Absolutely. Yeah, it was holding him down the water. Yeah, okay, yeah. And the thing is, it's like it's like whispering to him that he's like super thirsty, right, so clearly we've got another enchanted stream or something, because when Frodo touches the water, that's when he falls asleep, which you know who knows from his perspective.
Jessica:He's not falling asleep.
Kritter:Yeah, when he's touching this water, that happens, and it's either like is the tree in concert with the water? Is the tree affecting the water? Are they both alive? It's wild. And then our boy, Sam, is the one that's not wholly affected by this.
Kritter:He is sleepy, he's confused, but he's like this is wrong, we should not all be feeling like this. So he chases the ponies, which I think is funny, right, because they're like on the path there's something he's like I gotta go get these ponies. And then he comes back and Frodo is about to drown, so he takes care of him. And then they're trying to devise a plan for how to get Marion Pippen out, which involves fire. And then the tree is like threatening to murder them if they don't put the fire out. And yeah, like what do you do?
Jessica:I don't know. I loved that Sam was so savage. Honestly, like zero hesitation, zero cares to give. He's like I don't have an axe, but I do have a little hatchet and we could build a fire. Like no holds barred. He's going to do whatever it takes to get his friends out of there. We are going to mess this tree up. You know you coming at us, bro. We going to come right back.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:So I was genuinely impressed. You know, being attacked by a magical tree he took it in stride. He's like, ok, we're going to clap back, this is what we're going to do.
Kritter:Yeah, I love that, but obviously feudal, because the tree is not having the fire and was going to kill them. So then enters Tom Bombadillo. So he did not make an appearance in the movies, the live action movies, at least first impressions.
Jessica:First impressions were. You know this is Tom Bombadil. He is essentially the Keyser Soze of my childhood, so I've heard the name so many times. He also did not make the cartoon movies either.
Kritter:OK, I did not know that so.
Jessica:I have heard of Tom Bombadil. I've heard nothing about him, just I remember all of the noise around. How can you make a movie without Tom Bombadil in it?
Kritter:OK, so I feel very uninformed right now and I must admit my ignorance. What is Keyser Soze?
Jessica:That's OK. It's a movie reference. Have you ever seen the movie the Usual Suspects?
Kritter:No, ok, so that's what it's about.
Jessica:OK, so like someone who is essentially like an urban legend, so he's a great one about love If you seen hot tub Time Machine. Yes, yes, ok, ok. So similar thing like Keyser's Soze, but nobody's ever seen him, nobody's ever met him. He does work through such and such, but also sideline. Like you Should Watch the Usual has suspect. Sometimes it's a really good movie.
Kritter:OK, I've heard a lot about it. It's the Keyser Soze of my life.
Jessica:Yes, so Tom Bombadil is the white buffalo of my world I've been hearing. I know nothing about him. I have never tuned into what he does in the story or anything like that, because, frankly, I didn't want to know. I wanted to just enjoy the movies as they came. Yeah, so I was like this is the infamous Tom B. Let's see what happened?
Kritter:So infamous Tom B, our boys singing it or speaking in verse he's got, he's, he's in. He's a different breed. So now that you've met him, this is him.
Jessica:How do?
Kritter:we feel about him.
Jessica:I'm curious to see what he is. So he sounds like he's human. He's got an interesting outfit. He does speak in rhyme, but it also does sound nonsensical. He does seem to be carrying flowers Homeward. I'm interested to see that. But he does seem to manage to exert some influence over old man Willow. So I am extremely curious to see what he really is, if I get to find out.
Kritter:Yeah, the way that Andy Serkis did this, it's like so when I read it on the page it was like every now and then something would be like oh, that rhymed. But Andy Serkis, literally, like he was, like the way he talked was so sing songy, it was hilarious. Like it was also kind of annoying. Like eventually, I was like okay, like not Andy Serkis fault, tom Bombadil's fault, this is annoying because he just keeps singing and we're like Merry and Pippen are literally dying, like what are you doing, bro? So that was fun. And then, yeah, he gets them out and he convinces them. He actually says a line. I didn't write it down, unfortunately, but he says a line that one of the Ents actually says to some of the trees in Fangorn Forest the eat earth, dig deep, drink water and go to sleep.
Jessica:Did you recognize that? Okay, I thought that sounded familiar.
Kritter:Okay, that's cool. Yeah, it's like it's I didn't catch that one.
Jessica:I caught a lot of them so far, I think.
Kritter:Yeah, I did not remember that that was a Tom Bombadil quote because, again in the movie, I realized today, actually, I think, or yesterday, that I believe it's been more than 20 years since I've read the books. So, like, if I'm doing the math, I think it has to have been more than 20 years since I read the books. So, yeah, most of my Lord of the Rings experience lately in the last 20 years has been from the movie. So I just assumed the Ents were the ones that said it, not Tom Bombadil. But no, that's awesome. Yeah, so it's also got like a cool. Like like him being annoying in the sense that he rhymes when he talks was actually really great for that, that little part, because I think it's like very kind of deep ironically deep is in the phrase that I like a lot.
Jessica:I'm interested to see like I'm totally fine, keeping an open mind there's another character, a wizard character, in a different work that's not relevant but also is kind of not just Tongue and Cheek but intentionally bombastic and foolish. And you know, and that's part of his MO, so that people don't take him seriously. And he does, in fact, have a great deal of power in his world.
Kritter:What book is this from?
Jessica:It's called the Silicon Mage by Barbara Hambly. It's like a 70s or 80s sci-fi fantasy book series. They're little, they're super easy to just inhale. I love them. I don't know how well they hold up. They are literally set in like early 80s Silicon Valley. Okay. But Antrig is intentionally laughable. He's just very one because he doesn't take himself seriously. But also it works to his advantage because he doesn't want anybody else to take him seriously either. But he does wind up being incredibly powerful. But you can just so easily dismiss him, okay. So that's kind of the vibe that that gave me even though this is a few ratchets up, a few notches from that the actual sing-song-y, nonsensical, okay. And then the last piece was I wrote down I was like who is Goldberry? Why am I more interested in finding out who Goldberry is than I am in finding out who Tom B is? Big?
Kritter:ol' Tom B. So yeah, Tom, once they get out, invites them to like dine with him.
Jessica:They're home.
Kritter:Yeah, and they're home, and he like, he like, leaves them behind him and just expecting them to be able to follow him and they're like, struggling still. Yeah. Eventually, though, they and he like circles back to be like you're almost there, you're gonna get there. Finally, they make it, and that's the end of the chapter. So do you have any final thoughts about the chapters Any of the chapters.
Jessica:It feels a little bit like we crossed through a threshold, like I think that this is about a quarter of the way through the book for us.
Kritter:Oh, okay, yeah.
Jessica:And I do feel like we've kind of crossed a threshold, like we made it outside the borders of the Shire. Yeah, we're definitely not in Kansas anymore, so we'll see what happens. I would say that this would be a part where, you know, the narrator in the Hobbit would have said thus ends the story of the Shire. The Shire.
Kritter:That's true. We are missing that little storytelling elements. The super invasive narrator has not really reared his head.
Jessica:No, he hasn't told me what for anything since we started this story.
Kritter:Yeah, tone shift for sure. So it is time to pick an MVP from chapters four through six. Cue the music. Jessica, who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Jessica:Oh God, it's so hard. I wrote it down for the first one. I didn't write it down for the second one. I'm going to have to say Tom Bombadil only, because it would be a really short story Without him.
Kritter:Or at least for Merry and Pippin, and it would Right. Okay, honestly. So this is funny because I feel like, well, I guess it makes sense because there's only so many characters, but I was between Tom Bombadil and, well, I thought about Sam because he was the one that was actually like around, but I'm going to give it to Mary.
Kritter:Actually, that was the other one yeah because that is a ride or die bestie if I have ever seen one and I didn't give him credit in the last episode because we hadn't seen it quite fully come to fruition but the fact not only that he moved for Frodo, but he has been expecting Frodo to leave, planning for it and intending to go along with him despite the danger, is just yeah, mad respect, mad respect.
Jessica:This was from last chapter, but one of the things that you know, as Frodo was bemoaning what it means to have friends that were just, you know, lying to him the whole time, you know, and basically says something about how can I trust you? Now you know the response was but you cannot trust us to let you face trouble alone and go off without a word.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:And I just was like, oh, right through the feels.
Kritter:It was, it was. So I totally get the Tom Bombadil choice because you know he saved people's lives. But you know it's also just I don't know if I can't predict who's going to get my MVPs going forward, but I think Merry really shown shone, shined whatever in this particular sequence.
Jessica:Yeah, absolutely.
Kritter:Okay, so that's going to be it. Next episode, if you're keeping up with us, you should read through chapter nine. So chapters seven through nine, and we want to say thank you so much for tuning in to episode three of season two of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your hosts, Jessica Sedai and me, Kritter xd. Don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok, and ButDragon's pod on X. That's only one T. You can also find your hosts on social media as KritterXD and Shelf Indulgence. And that's it for today. We are workshopping new catch phrases for season two, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one Farewell. We call to hearth and hall. The wind may blow and rain may fall. Must away until next Tuesday.
Jessica:Bye, bye.