But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 6: The One with Don Marshall & the Council of Elrond!
Kritter and Jessica have a very special guest for a very special episode! Join them as they discuss all things LOTR with Don Marshall, THE Obscure Lord of the Rings Facts Guy! Don pops in on the journey for Book 2 Chapters 1 and 2 which is convenient because we learn A LOT in Chapter 2 Council of Elrond! There are laughs, silly faces and even a wild theory or two!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Kritter and Jessica have a very special guest for a very special episode! Join them as they discuss all things LOTR with Don Marshall, THE Obscure Lord of the Rings Facts Guy! Don pops in on the journey for Book 2 Chapters 1 and 2 which is convenient because we learn A LOT in Chapter 2 Council of Elrond! There are laughs, silly faces and even a wild theory or two!
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Hello, welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, Kritter.
Kritter:And I'm your host, Jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Fellowship of the Ring by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran. And me as the Lord of the Rings, first-timer. In this our sixth episode of Season 2, we're going to discuss Book 2, chapters 1-2. Before we do, I would like to introduce our very special guest for this episode, who hardly needs any introduction. Welcome to Don Marshall, the Obscure Lord of the Rings. Facts guy, yes.
Don:Thank you so much. That's a heck of an introduction. Thank you.
Kritter:Well, I'm not even done. Okay. So Don is TikTok, famous for knowing all there is to know about the rings. He has fabulous inclusive merch used by the likes of Sean Astin and the other Hobbit actors. He does a this Day in Middle Earth calendar that I've purchased and loved for the past two years, and he has a homebrewed Lord of the Rings themed D&D campaign called the Unpredicted Party that explores why they didn't just take the Eagles to Mordor. Don, did I miss anything?
Don:For those listening on the audio-only version of this I have gone from a very pale white man to bright red. That was so kind of you, thank you. That was the nicest intro I think I've ever gotten. Well, yes, that is my social media presence, sort of summed up in a nutshell. Something else you may need to know about me is that I have played too much to Balder's Gate.
Kritter:Awesome, and you also have a live D&D session coming up right.
Don:Yes, I do A shameless plug five seconds into the podcast here, Do it?
Kritter:Get in there, yeah.
Don:I'm fortunate enough that my very silly what basically was a fan fiction turned into a D&D module has garnered enough attention that we have been invited to a con. It is called NoCoCon Saturday and Sunday, june 8th this coming year, 2024. We will be playing on the main stage and I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's going to be wonderful because we have never actually played in the same room together. My cast of four players Tori, zach, charlotte and Max. We've never all had a group hug. We've been talking about it for literally years, because we've been doing this for almost two years now, oh God. And yeah, we're fortunate enough that we got noticed, which is a weird thing to do on social media.
Kritter:That's awesome. Congratulations, that is so cool.
Don:Thank you that sounds awesome.
Kritter:We have a little D&D campaign going Jessica me, my wheel and chill co-hosts and a couple other people and we met in person all together at WotCon last year and it was magical. We didn't play a session on the main stage or anything, but we did get brunch and it was fabulous. We did.
Don:Sometimes the brunch is less pressure right, there's no need to feel like you need to perform in front of an audience and personally, I'm looking forward to the I imagine five hours of tapas we'll have at some local Mexican restaurant afterwards. So that's what I'm really looking forward to. So if you have recommendations for upstate New York Mexican food, Well, I don't, but Jessica I might, I, might.
Jessica:I'll get back to you.
Don:I was hoping someone from your audience would email me. I didn't know.
Jessica:I was getting one-on-one coaching.
Don:This is great.
Jessica:I mean I, you know, moonlit in Vermont for a little while and may or may not have traveled over the border into New York a time or two, so yeah, you know okay. But obviously any of our listeners who have recommendations, we will happily pass them along.
Don:Yeah, absolutely All right. Okay, so we're going to talk about the Lord of the Ringss. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica:Is that what we're doing?
Kritter:Before we get into the chapters that we read, we want to ask Don a few questions to help everyone get to know him.
Don:If my introduction wasn't quite enough.
Kritter:Answer them as briefly or elaborately as you'd like, and this is no pressure. We can all answer the questions just to like, make it chill and no pressure.
Don:I am an open book. I hope people understand what I mean when I say I have the same energy as Brennan Lee Mulligan, willing to do anything for five points.
Kritter:I am willing to just open myself up to the public for attention. I see you. Yeah, yeah, same energy, okay, all right. So just a reminder we are no book spoilers past the chapters that we just read.
Don:Oh, so she doesn't know about the thing.
Kritter:Well, exactly, okay.
Don:Cool.
Kritter:Unless it's from the movies, because she has seen the movies. So anything that's happened in the movies is totally fair game.
Don:Oh, interesting oh okay, yeah, I think I was under the impression you hadn't seen the movies either.
Kritter:No, she has been semi spoiled, semi, but it's been really interesting, the things that don't happen in the movies, like Tom Bombadil, for example, completely new element for her and so her like meeting him and everything.
Jessica:It was pretty wild and I am just a whisker older, so I also grew up on the cartoon movies of Lord of the Rings. So I have some of that background, but I will say that since we've been doing this now since October, I'm dying to rewatch and I can't. I'm holding out and it's making me twitch, but anyways, it's going to be worth it, I promise you?
Kritter:Yeah, just know, we're trying to avoid spoilers, even though there have been some spoilers, okay. So, Don, when did you first read the Lord of the Rings?
Don:So this is a bit of an embarrassing answer and I think I give this story every time I'm on a podcast, but it is truly bizarre. The first time I read the Lord of the Rings was actually not till late high school, early college, but my obsession and I say I've been obsessed for 20 years was because my mom was reading the books at the time that the movies were coming out and she would literally go chapter by chapter and every night at the break she would read a chapter and then like tell my sister and I the five minute version of the breakfast table the next morning, and so my first experience to the Lord of the Rings was not.
Don:Oh yes, there's Elijah Wood playing Frodo or sitting up until 3am with a flashlight as a nine year old, but it was literally my mom conveying the story to me, and I credit a lot of that to like my obsession because my mom's a great storyteller, so I was hooked instantly.
Kritter:Wow, so you like basically listen to a Lord of the Rings podcast before reading the Lord of the Rings.
Jessica:Pretty much Before it was cool. Yeah, that's awesome.
Kritter:So I was one. I was the kid at the flashlight when I was like nine or 10 or whatever, Like it was. It was like probably a couple of years before the movies came out or like so soon before the movies came out. It was wild that I like read them and then I saw an ad for it in the movie theater and I was just like mind blown and I like I literally heard something whispering and I was like, is that Gollum? Like it was why and like it was insane. So like yeah, I read them in in like grade school. Jessica, now you're reading them now.
Don:Yeah, sorry, sorry, oh no. Always I got an impression. I wasn't sure when was an appropriate time to interrupt. I needed the natural pause, but it didn't. It resulted in more trauma than I meant.
Jessica:So part of the impetus for Kritter and I to start this podcast was Lord of the Rings. Tolkien in general is a property that I consider myself a self-proclaimed fantasy girlie Like. I've been reading my mother's hand me down fantasy stories since I was 10 years old but I never did Tolkien. And then the movies came out and then it just kept getting to the point where it was kind of embarrassing.
Kritter:Right Like.
Jessica:I've read. I've read Pern. I've read Wheel of Time. I've read Dragon Lance. I've all of these.
Don:Oh, you're deep in the woods of fantasy.
Kritter:Yeah, no, I like bread and butter.
Jessica:Bread and butter. I have zero excuse. But you get to a point where that I kept wondering somebody was going to take my nerd card because I hadn't just pulled the trigger. And then we were at Con one lovely evening having dinner over tapas, I believe.
Kritter:Ironically, we were in fact having tapas.
Don:It's such a vibe it was really it was good stuff.
Jessica:And I looked at Kritter and I'm like I really just need an excuse to just, you know, rip the band aid off and do it. And she said, if that's a thing you want to do, we could podcast about it. And here we are.
Kritter:Of course I'm like I don't do enough stuff, let's do one more thing, yes.
Don:A busier schedule, you say.
Kritter:Although I hadn't. I haven't read them for like 20 years, and so that is why I was like I need the re, I need I do content about this. I really want to reread it. Which brings me to my next question how many times would you say you've read the core series, Don?
Don:This is a very difficult question for me to answer because it's going to be somewhat confrontational depending on who's listening. So, through and through, I have probably only read the full trilogy A couple dozen times.
Kritter:Sorry.
Don:A couple dozen. This is like, this is like okay, so this is, this is, this is again. This is the blanket statement, because I also use audiobooks and I know that some people do not count audiobooks as reading, because you're doing, go away.
Kritter:Okay, those people go away. I wanted to tip.
Don:Cool. I didn't know if you guys were chill like that, but I appreciate the vibes, so yeah, I. The problem with it is, though, I used to use and sometimes still do I use the Robert Inglis audiobooks to fall asleep. I need some sort of background.
Kritter:The wheel of time for me.
Don:Yeah and and. Oh my God, those audiobooks are. Kate and Michael are just brilliant. You've met them, haven't you?
Kritter:Yeah, a couple of times. They're delightful. People Like so cool so much fun.
Don:I want them to be like my fake TV parents that like discipline me and like teach me how to be a real man, because they just seem like such. Their voices just imply sorry. I feel some type of way about the wheel of time.
Jessica:Audiobooks they are incredible human beings to me in person.
Don:That's so good to hear.
Jessica:And I highly recommend it. If you ever have the opportunity, I'm just saying you could come to WoTCon and meet them.
Kritter:They're guests at WoTCon this year.
Don:I, oh actually, when is WoTCon? I legitimately?
Jessica:do not know. July 12th.
Don:So, hang on. That's not San Diego Comic Con weekend.
Kritter:No, it's the weekend before I leave.
Jessica:We try really hard not to conflict with that.
Don:Well, maybe when you say we do you like run.
Jessica:Oh, kind of.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:I carry a watermelon.
Don:I. The spectrum of those two answers could not have been more different. Yeah, kind of, and I carry a water. I'm a social media.
Kritter:I'm one of the two social media managers for WoTCon, so we're on the planning committee, where the we are among the people and Jessica is the welcome wagon. Basically, she plans, yes, I literally I.
Jessica:my claim to fame is squee Like I have a good attitude.
Kritter:I want to say hi to everybody. And so.
Jessica:I live at the registration desk and I made a. I parlayed a role out of it.
Don:Yeah, that's incredible.
Jessica:I'm going to give you your badge. I'm going to tell you you're here and I'm so happy to see you and this is what you need. And do you have questions? And please find me if you have questions. And I literally just invited myself.
Kritter:Um, yeah, so if you want to come, you would be so welcome, we would love to have you.
Jessica:Thank you, and Michael and Kate will be there.
Kritter:Guy Roberts, who played Uno in the Wheel of Time show. Oh, yeah, okay.
Don:Okay, well, you know, twist my arm. Why don't you? My goodness.
Kritter:Anyways, we are.
Don:Yes, sorry, we were again, so it's couple a couple dozen times.
Kritter:Honestly, when you said this might be controversial, I was expecting you to be like. I've actually only read them twice, oh Jesus.
Jessica:I would have been like, you know I would have been like same you know like wow, look at us with same Um.
Kritter:but no, not that at all.
Don:I have had people accuse me of being a fake and like going on Wikipedia for everything because my answers are so similar. Because I was, that was my childhood. I wrote it so much that I like no pages verbatim. Speaking of pages verbatim the Council of Elrond, the oh wait, no, you had rapid fire. Question.
Kritter:Yeah, we're doing wildly, I'm sorry, it's okay, it's wildly Um we. What is your favorite book?
Don:A Fellowship of the Ring. Amazing, it's perfect. To me it's the right amount of world building, yet whimsical fantasy and fae coziness, with a little bit of dark horror and a twinge of oh my God, what is that? That it molds perfectly. The other two books are very, very good, but they rely on fellowship. They don't stand sort of perfect.
Kritter:It's a cohesive marriage.
Don:Thank you.
Kritter:Mine is the Gathering Storm, book 12 of the Wheel of Time.
Jessica:So if you haven't read the Wheel of Time yet everybody read at least 12 of them.
Don:Yeah, that's your favorite book. Last one that's Sanderson. Sorry, that's the last one, that's.
Kritter:Sanderson, that's the first one, Sanderson.
Don:The first one. Yes, the last one. Jordan first one yeah.
Jessica:Yeah. Okay, I mean I haven't finished Lord of the Rings.
Don:True, true.
Jessica:I mean, I think the Gathering Storm probably has me as well, because that is definitely my favorite WoT book as of my last read through. And I can't think of anything that takes the cake over that, so I'm probably going to go with, not to be a basic, being copy you, but I'm pretty sure that's where I'm at currently.
Kritter:It's a great book.
Don:Can I throw some shade real quick, just like as a like a one-off joke kind of thing. You can cut this if you need to.
Kritter:Bring it.
Don:I was going to say wait, both of your favorite books are the ones that Brandon Sanderson wrote, not book number nine, where nothing happens. And the joke was I wasn't going to say the book number, but then I realized I don't know which one nothing happens in because it's such a long story. I lost track.
Kritter:Well, that's common, where it's like I don't actually remember what happens in every single book because I sort of bleed together for me. But the Gathering Storm does stand out. And no, it is not book nine, the one where nothing happens.
Jessica:Six through nine is a bit of a smear, if I'm being honest.
Don:As I sit here with a signed copy of the Lords of Chaos. It is Well Lord of.
Jessica:Chaos, book six is that's a banger, that's a banger and it's the one with the romance novel cover, which is incredible.
Don:I still do. You want me to grab it? I can Sure Grab it yeah.
Jessica:Mine's downstairs.
Don:It's short haired, fabio, and a kneeling woman with a with a random bat in the background like hi, I'm a Dracula. Stand in.
Jessica:Yeah, so fun story. We had that as a backdrop.
Kritter:Was that?
Jessica:last year, oh yeah.
Kritter:At Jordan Con. Yeah, yeah, the DJ backdrop yeah.
Jessica:It sure was yeah.
Kritter:And in the year before that it was a step and repeat. So people took pictures like in the romance novel book six of the Wheel of Time cover. It was like that's amazing. Jordan Con is also a very good time. Ok, we need to get to these chapters, so yeah so.
Jessica:I'm time.
Kritter:Oh, it's OK, We've got a couple more done Other than Tolkien's works. What book would you recommend to our listeners?
Don:If you're an adult, the Witcher. If you're a child, redwall or his dark materials. Only read the his dark materials If you're older than the age of 13,. It will emotionally break you.
Kritter:I read it for the first time a couple of years ago. I would recommend that for adults too. Great books, oh, absolutely, yeah, great.
Don:But it's going to.
Kritter:It's going to break you less as an adult, but I can see that. I can see that. Ok, don, who's your favorite Lord of the Rings character?
Don:Samwise Gamgee, with Boromir being a close second as my hot take.
Kritter:Boromir.
Don:Boromir is a vastly misunderstood character and if you put nothing else on your TikTok channel, put this. People do not understand the pressure that Boromir is under. Boromir is literally leading the city. His father has put all of the pressure on to him, as he rules with an iron.
Jessica:Just be careful, because I've only just met Boromir.
Kritter:Boromir is brand new. Well, OK, but that's kind of kind of kind of in the movies.
Jessica:movies, yeah, kind of. But, noted Boromir. That is a great take. Same one.
Kritter:Great, same Same. Jessica, who's your favorite character so far in the books? I mean this can include the hobbit, by the way, since we did read the hobbit first.
Jessica:I mean it's probably going to be Bilbo. Still, I thought you were going to say that, samwise is hot, hot, hot on his heels, but having, yeah, bilbo, bilbo earned that spot for now.
Don:OK, now this one is a bit different Books and a little differently, hits different.
Jessica:I love it.
Kritter:We're going to talk about that. Ok, Don, you are traveling from the Shire to Rivendell. Do you ride Shadowfax, Bill the Pony or Gwai hir?
Don:Wow. Well, the opportunity to ride Bill the Pony should never be passed up, but I am also afraid I might break him. It'll also be incredibly slow. So I think I'll go Gwai hir, because it's kind of like riding a fighter jet.
Kritter:Yeah, I didn't know if you had, like a fear of heights, so I figured that was the only way I do.
Don:I do, I very much do, but I love adrenaline in like the in danger for my life kind of way. I was a journalist for 10 years, so I was at a lot of active crime scenes.
Kritter:Wow, wow, ok. So final rapid fire question. You are about to go on an adventure and get to choose what weapon you're taking. Sting Legolas's bow, Gimli's axe, Glamdring or Anduril which one are you taking?
Don:Oh what? Oh, this is so pedantic. What age am I in? Because it's going to depend on what weapon I take.
Kritter:OK, well, what age? I mean, I guess Anduril didn't really exist, exactly. Oh, ok, so you're thinking you would do Narsil? Is that like no?
Don:if it's if it's fourth age or if it's end of third age, fourth age and beyond of Middle Earth, like living in Aragorn's Andu ril, 100 percent. If it's before the third age, it's Glamdring.
Kritter:OK, for sure. I love that. It makes a lot of sense. It makes sense, thank you.
Don:It's hard to explain my brain, but when people get it I'm so grateful.
Kritter:I get it All right, so let's move to the chapters we actually read. Thank you for participating in my fun little game. That I wanted to do because you're here with us. Ok, book two, chapter one many meetings. Frodo wakes up in Rivendell after passing out at the Ford, and this scene is very much like in the movies, except we casually find out that Gandalf can read people's minds and memories. I guess Jessica did this surprise you.
Jessica:Um, yes, that was, that was a big old. Yes, I was like ho-dee-ho, what? What just happened? Street?
Don:is so, casually too, it's like, yeah, well, it's easy here.
Jessica:This isn't the first time that our author has just randomly thrown something into in in like tidbits and stuff, and you're like, wait, hold on what. You should not be allowed to say things like that just so casually.
Kritter:Sarah, wait, Don, this is the perfect time for a Gollum impersonation.
Don:The.
Kritter:No, I was going to say what did you say? What is that? Like? Oh gee, Frodo turns into Gollum. When Gandalf's like yeah, I read your mind. What did you say? Sorry no pressure.
Don:Hope, it's the hope, it's the hope, it's the oh, which you don't know about, jessica. I'm so sorry no no I.
Kritter:Are you sure you haven't seen the? You have you seen the tak ing the Hobbits to Isengard YouTube video?
Jessica:I showed it on one of our it came up during one of our live streams, because you kept saying it and singing it and I'm like what are?
Kritter:you talking about.
Jessica:Cool, but I have no idea what you're doing or what rant you just went on.
Kritter:Yeah.
Don:So I would honestly feel worse about spoiling that YouTube video than any part of the Lord of the Rings I know.
Kritter:I pulled it up immediately and then of course got like copyright flagged for it after the fact.
Don:But oh yeah, it was a thousand times worth 100 percent. Like you don't understand, you can't copyright me. I was doing it for the memes, so I was doing it for the people.
Kritter:So, Don, is there anything Gandalf can't do?
Don:Fly.
Jessica:Oh, ok, fair, I was going to say answer a direct question, but oh, that is also true that there are multiple answers to these.
Don:It's one of those like check all that apply answers, multiple choice things Valid. Gandalf can't, for all of the potential allegories that people might assign to him, whether that's a Christ figure or a Merlin figure or whatever spirituality you want to do. Can't walk on water, can't commune with the gods these may be spoilers for Jessica, but surprised God doesn't show up in the Lord of the Rings.
Jessica:Even in the books.
Don:I mean well, technically OK that example because of a thing in book. You've seen the movies Mm hmm, gandalf being a Christ figure is a little more hamfisted than a little yeah. Yeah, a little bit more. Anyway, sorry that was a tangent, yet again.
Kritter:We love tangents.
Don:No problem, we're good at it.
Kritter:We got so Gandalf not being able to walk on water or fly, but he can read minds, so he's more of a Jean Grey than, or like a professor X. Then, yeah, somebody else that could fly.
Don:Well, no, because he might also be Jean Grey, because he has force field powers that we see and fire. He's like a weird combo. Gandalf is just a combination of the X men as it suits the.
Jessica:What I'm hearing is there's a tik Tok here where you talk about what are the top five X men that make Gandalf that compose.
Kritter:He's right, that's right, just right, hang on.
Jessica:Yeah, you do.
Don:Who would win in a fight X men?
Jessica:The entire X men squad versus Gandalf.
Don:So Jean Grey probably wouldn't be Gandalf, but the Phoenix would.
Jessica:So that's not a one on the list, if you want to get into X men deep dives. No, I don't have the. I don't have the street cred for that. I barely have the street cred for fellowship.
Don:You're doing great so far.
Jessica:Okay.
Kritter:All right. So Frodo seemed surprised by how much he'd grown to respect Strider. Jessica and I have laughed about how the Hobbits have a thing against strangers, even strange Hobbits, but the prejudice against big people is even stronger. So before Strider, Frodo assumed that they were all big and stupid. Refreshing myself on the Hobbits and their lore and even their prejudices has been super fun on this reread, because I forgot that they were so like closeted. Do you have any favorite Hobbit facts?
Don:Oh goodness, uh well, my favorite fact is, in one of the early drafts of fellowship, Aragorn was going to be a Hobbit.
Kritter:Oh, that is interesting.
Don:His name was Trotter and he was going to have a wooden feet because he had, like think he had lost them in battle or had like some sort of injury from war and he wore wooden like clogs, and so you would always hear him trotting around like a horse, and so that was wild. And so Trotter became Strider and he became a human, and yeah, so that's probably my favorite Hobbit fact.
Kritter:That's that's. That's a really fun Hobbit, yeah, Um. So I think my favorite Hobbit fact is probably that they're so surprisingly resilient. Everybody keeps bringing it up where, like they you know, Bilbo proved time and time again in the Hobbit. Everyone's kind of looking at him sideways like I didn't expect you to be able to do that. And Frodo bore that splinter in him for 17 days, which Gandalf, I believe, says would have been the end of many strong warriors. So I mean props to Frodo and other Hobbits. They're like very respectable creatures, even though everybody always underestimates them. Jessica, may I?
Don:give another. I'm so sorry I keep interrupting when you no get on the other side.
Kritter:I do have another interrupt me. Thank, you.
Don:This is a fun other obscure fact because there's obviously Tolkien is very famous for not liking allegory, but I think it's fair to say the the Hobbits are sort of a British people in World War One, world War Two, adjacent. There is same vibes, if you will, to use modern day slang, and I think the the Hobbits, especially their resilience, are like a testament to like the good of the old British lads. I, you know countryside, terrible impression. I do apologize, but yeah, I think that was. That was kind of what he was going for. That's interesting.
Kritter:I hadn't thought about it that way, but I think you're probably right. Jessica, is there a Hobbit fact that you like?
Jessica:I really like the fact you know it's kind of a little bit of a throwback fact at this point, but that there are some attributes I think we discussed in a previous episode. There are some attributes that are just generally attributed to the Hobbits that you know their, their ability to blend in, their ability to not be seen and heard and the deep well of strength that they can pull from, which is what you're specifically referencing here, and Gandalf even makes comment of at the beginning of chapter one about you know how much stronger they are and that he's grown quite fond of them all. I think that these are all really admirable qualities, but they would. It's not a superpower, it's not magical. We definitely talked about this. You know it's not magic based or arcane in nature, but they're very specific things that other races don't seem to benefit from.
Kritter:Yeah, they're their own thing and they've got their own cool stuff.
Don:Yeah, and it's not a superpower, and that's kind of what I love about it is like the elves who can like, conjure and wield the forces of nature. Hobbits are just like. I'm going to dip out of here for a second and you're not going to see me leave, so yeah, and just be experts at the Irish.
Kritter:goodbye the best.
Don:So was Tolkien trying to make the hobbits an allegory for Ireland, you know.
Kritter:I don't know.
Don:No. I can attest to that no, I assure you that it was not.
Kritter:I doubt it. Okay, so Glorfindel comes up in their conversation and Gandalf mentions that he's one of the mighty of the first born and Elf Lord of the House of Princes. So I'm curious how you feel, Don, about Peter Jackson swapping him out for Arwen.
Don:I might spoil something slightly, jessica, but I don't necessarily think it has an impact because he doesn't have an impact. I like Glorfindel but that's because I've read the Silmarillion and I know his super cool backstory. Glorfindel is not necessarily as important of a character, so I am okay that he was swapped out with Arwen. It gave Arwen a lot more agency. I think it gave Tolkien sort of a way to express the different spectrum, the spectrum of femininity, with the small amount of, but no less powerful by any imagination the female characters and their own sort of sex. So I really like what they did in the movies, because Glorfindel's cool but he's not. He's not there.
Jessica:So Glorfindel goes into a bucket of like just a whole bunch of question marks I have in my notes. Lords of Eldar from beyond the furthest seas is that the Greyhavens, or can I not know yet? Does that mean if you go off in the big Elven boat, you too can see what is seen as unseen? Who are those players that have those abilities? Are we talking about Elrond's Sons? Glorfindel, Galdor? What's his name? The other, Elge.
Jessica:Galdor Galdor, who's also part of this whole, and so some of those can be rhetorical into the wind questions if I can't know the answers, but I'm like. So we have reference to Elves that pass from this world that I'm already familiar with, and I hear mention of Greyhavens, but I also hear mention of beyond the furthest seas, and I'm like are these the same destinations? I'm now at a point where I'm like are we talking about the same things?
Don:With Tolkien? The answer is almost certainly no. Okay, cool, I'm happy to do sort of like a rapid fire answering of those questions if we want to try actual rapid fire, which I failed at horribly the first time. But I'm down to do whatever.
Kritter:Yeah, like will she find out? She'll find out, probably in the return of the king, right?
Don:Yeah, so can you read me the questions and I'll pass if it's a spoiler potentially.
Jessica:Yeah, and I mean RAFO is an acceptable answer always.
Don:Fantastic, because it's probably going to be my answer for most of these.
Jessica:Yeah, because it was really just stream of consciousness, like. I got to a certain point in Chapter One and went okay, I don't know who the players are, what their special skills are, and so I just started typing stuff out in bullets. What I wrote was Lords of Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. Is that the Greyhavens or something else?
Don:Does that?
Jessica:mean so something else? Okay, Does that mean, if you go off in the big elven boat, you too can see what is seen and unseen?
Don:RAFO.
Jessica:Okay, who all are the players who have those abilities? Elrond, sons, Glorfindel, gandor or Galdor or others?
Don:I don't know.
Kritter:Oh, whoa, okay, we stumped them.
Jessica:I'm going to sleep like a baby tonight because I stumped Don Marshall, the Lord of the Rings.
Don:You're asking the correct questions.
Kritter:That's always good to know that's satisfying enough.
Jessica:I kind of catch wind of these things, and obviously I do as I read through. I do try to, where appropriate, divorce myself from what I know from the movies. But at the end of the day the rest of Tolkien's world is so foreign to me I am eager to make connections to what I saw represented on the screen. So I'm kind of very much intentionally doing it and in other moments trying to avoid it and I kind of zip back and forth.
Don:That is the perfect way. If you have already seen the movies for me at least I recommend that to people just divorce yourself from it, Take it as its own thing, because there are going to be changes, and that's the perfect way to do it. Yeah.
Kritter:I guess, jessica, you don't really have to elaborate here, but I was wondering are you feeling attached at all to Glorfindel at this point?
Jessica:I am, but only in the way that I thought he might be a thread I could pull on to better understand these other elves that have passed through.
Jessica:He does seem very shiny and fantastic with his performance at the Ford Big props would never take that away and seems important and held in a high regard by Elrond. So I would trust Elrond's judgment that he's Somebody to know, a capital Somebody, cool Capital as Somebody. But I feel as though there are a lot of players from the Elven realm specifically that I don't really understand how they all kind of mesh. Neither does Tolkien.
Don:What I didn't say, that Sorry.
Kritter:There's an echo in that mic. I just heard something off of it. So finally Sam and Frodo reunite and the scene reads very intimate in my opinion, so I'll recite kind of what happened. Sam ran to Frodo and took his left hand awkwardly and shyly. He stroked it gently and then blushed and turned hastily away. Jessica and I talked about how Sam and the book starts out in a very different place than he does in the movie. He starts as a servant first, friend second, but he seems to be getting closer to Frodo in the books. Finally, how do you feel about how Sam and his relationship with Frodo is portrayed early in the books?
Don:Early in the books is such a cool dynamic in their relationship.
Don:But I say that having finished the trilogy, so it's so fun to sort of look back on it in hindsight. For first time readers it may read as oh, here's the main character, frodo, oh, and that weird sidekick guy, and while Sam may be as wholesome as they come, I don't necessarily know if he compares to who he is at the end of the trilogy, and I will say the Sean Astin portrayal is about as close to the books as you can get, and there are also some aspects that I wish Peter Jackson had included. This and speaking, though, of things that Peter Jackson did include it was at the insistence of Ian McKellen that Sam or Sean Astin rather grab Frodo's hand in the movie, because he pointed out to Sean that that's what it mentions in the book, ian McKellen being an openly gay man. That was very important to him as a book fan and as an actor. So I love the portrayal that they did in the movies, and it harkens very close to the gradual growth of the Sam Frodo relationship.
Kritter:Yeah, I agree. So, jessica, we've been vibing with Sam so far. To me, this scene felt a bit like a tone shift. As I said, this felt more intimate, less servant.
Jessica:How are you?
Kritter:feeling about it.
Jessica:Yeah, so I don't. I mean definitely it's intimate, right, he shows real concern for him. I think the intimacy comes from, or the tentativeness even comes from, reaching out for his hand as a peer.
Jessica:And that was Sam kind of lightly jumping over the perceived boundary of he is my master, which I struggled with greatly, and so not to diminish the intimacy of it regardless, but that's how I took it, that it was Sam making overtures of you matter to me, I care about you and I'm so glad you're okay. And he was willing, he felt strongly enough to kind of overstep that unspoken boundary.
Kritter:And I thought it was lovely. Yeah, I just came up with the weirdest example in my brain. It's like if you have, like a work friend you know what I mean and you become friends like over time and then eventually you like okay, well, if something amazing happens, then I can hug this person, like it takes a while before you.
Jessica:That's not that weird. So it's hard for me because fandom friends like I go in with a disclaimer like I'm a hugger. And if that's not your jam, please let me know and I'll definitely abide by your boundary. But in my work life, similar to you two, I'm sure you know professionally there's boundaries and so hugging a co-worker is not a boundary I usually cross first.
Kritter:Yeah, no.
Don:I don't think I can think of a single co-worker whose left hand I would grab current co-worker or previous co-worker, that's just yeah. So this is. I love how you put that. It's like a boundary share, a tonal shift.
Kritter:Yeah, it definitely is. So in this chapter, a feast is thrown in Frodo's honor. Gandalf is described as looking like some wise king of ancient legend, glorfindel, with a voice like music, his hair of shining gold and his face fair, young, fearless and full of joy. As for Elrond, venerable he seemed as a king, crowned with many winters, yet hail as a tried warrior in the fullness of his strength, mighty among elves and men. Arwen, who we're just meeting, is described as having the light of the stars in her bright eyes, gray as a cloudless night. Such loveliness in living thing Frodo had never seen before.
Kritter:So if this, that all is a bit of literary umami, which we kind of coined as like our God tier, like language, I don't know what is. So my question is Tolkien has a lot of strengths as an author world building, vivid imagery, memorable characters. What do you think his greatest strength is? Don oh wow. Sometimes I feel like the guy on Hot Ones when I ask questions.
Jessica:You really put him on the spot.
Kritter:I know, I know.
Jessica:I'm sorry.
Don:This is great. I've gone on so many podcasts and I'm fortunate enough that I don't typically get the same questions each time, and this has just been wild thinking about this kind of thing. What is? Oh God, how do I love thee. Let me count the ways Right. Something more lovely and more temperate. His greatest strength is probably his ability to make us care, using prose about fictional people. I'll harken back to another one of my favorite authors, John Green, who wrote the Fault in Our Stars, among many other great young adult novels that shaped my childhood. But John said in a random YouTube video one time that I still can't forget, and all I could think about as night fell is how much you could love made up people and how much you could miss them. And I immediately, as soon as that video ended, I just like, oh my God, that's the Lord of the Rings for me, and like I was realizing my hyper fixation and it was just one of those moments that I thought oh, Tolkien really does that quite beautifully.
Don:because you care, you care.
Kritter:Yeah, that's perfect. It kind of encapsulates everything that he's great at right. Yeah, but you know all of it comes together to make you just really care. Yeah, without all of it and like it whatever. Jessica, do you have a different answer, or you feel?
Jessica:free to just no, I'm not following that, no way, oh.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I'll just say I agree with Don and I am appreciating, because the first time and the second time that I read these books I was in grade school and like middle school, so I was. I didn't appreciate the prose nearly as much. I was in it for the story and the characters, which is typically how I am. But I do appreciate some pretty words and this time around I'm getting all of this like beautiful. I just was like phrasing.
Kritter:Flowery language Flowery language and I'm just eating it up. I just love it, and so I agree that the most important, the best thing about it is that he makes you care. But part of the reason that I'm caring so much this time is because it's just like I can see everything that he's telling me about and it's just all so gorgeous and so, yeah, I love that too.
Don:I love that a lot. I once I once heard a friend of mine describe Tolkien as taking honey from one of those like circular honey scoopers that you see in the jars, and it'll drizzle out, drizzle out, and every once in a while you get this big glottin' glob of just like word horn that is just the most beautiful thing you've ever read in your life.
Kritter:Yeah, and that's what we call literary umami on, but Are there Dragons? Sorry?
Don:I could have remembered that. No, no, no, no, no. You can leave me if you need. It's a good definition.
Kritter:It's a good definition. It's a literary umami. Okay, so Gloin is at the feast and we get a little update on the Men of Dale and Beorn's Kin and the Dwarves under the Mountain. So for Hobbit fans, I imagine this was a nice little update to get, given the almost 20 year gap between the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings being published. Jessica, were you hyped for this update, since we just read the Hobbit?
Jessica:I was so hyped I, even though it was so fresh, I was like I want it all, give it all to me. I was. I have bullet after bullet. Beorn has kids. They're called Beornings. I love it. Dain is King under the Mountain, Brand, Son of Bane, son of Bard. I'm like now I want to go back and rewatch Rings of Power and you know, just beat after beat and the fact that Gimli's there and just it's amazing. It's amazing the Beornings things, really. So those are the little moments that tend to derail me, because you know I'm on the lookout for weird new big beats.
Jessica:It's the little ones that kind of throw me off and get me all up in my feels. So that was that definitely came for me a little bit and I loved everything about it. I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Kritter:Gloin being like the levies are too high. It's like they're good men. They're good men, but their levies are way too high. Yeah, that was like they've dwarfed so hard.
Don:These guys are charging like double what they were last winter. My God, it's wild.
Kritter:It's wild. They're definitely surpassing inflation Anyway. So Frodo gets a very special surprise after the feast. Bilbo is in Rivendell, so during their reunion they catch up, have a tense moment over the ring and Bilbo shares a long song about Earendil. I'm terrible, Eare ndi l Don. How?
Don:do you know Eare ndi l was?
Kritter:a mariner that tarried in.
Don:Alvernian.
Jessica:Yes.
Don:He was a boat of silver, felled in Nimrodel to journey. Oh the journey, I'm losing it. I was going to try and be cool and quote the I used to you already.
Jessica:That was like you were in lines Cool.
Kritter:It was more impressive than I would have. I'm so so Aragorn helped him put the finishing touches on this song, apparently. But all of that being said, any favorite or standout moments from this last part of the chapter? The party, the meeting of Bilbo, anything like that.
Don:When I was first watching the movies I was very surprised that I saw Bilbo again. I was very much expecting him to sort of be like the Obi-Wan Kenobi thing, where like, oh, he'll be back at the end of movie three obviously, because that's how Obi-Wan did it and that's how I think at the time I was still reading Harry Potter. So like it was very ingrained me that like, yes, the old whiz and Lee man will be back later, but not till the end. And all of a sudden we're, you know, halfway through book one and it's or halfway through movie one and it's like what's that guy? What's he going to do? And he makes a really scary face and that's yes, that was that was my childhood trauma, for sure.
Kritter:It's pretty terrible.
Jessica:Yeah, I really I loved it. I definitely got you know the big, soft fuzzy feels for the Bilbo Frodo reunion because, I didn't know what to expect.
Jessica:I wasn't sure if we were going to get it or not, and I thought the book did a good job of kind of for me anyways, the first time taking it in, and I wasn't I wasn't sure if it was going to come because we had done so much partying before Bilbo gets pulled in.
Jessica:Yeah, so that was cool. I did think that the interaction with the two of them and the ring was fascinating and it did, you know, make me mindful about how I felt, about how that was represented on the screen in the movies, and I thought that it was good. Frankly and I do that sometimes, I reevaluate and reflect on what was my perspective, on how the movie handled that. I think that I don't know how else you would have represented that visually, but I think that that was good and it was frightening in an appropriate way based on the subject matter. And then the last couple of bullets I had here the fact that Aragorn had insisted including a green stone in Bilbo story seems relevant. So you know, sometimes I go a little crazy with the highlighting, so I was like, ok, he made sure there was an emerald involved.
Jessica:I can't wait to see what that's about Next.
Don:So real quick question for you have you seen the extended editions of the movies?
Jessica:I have, but it's, I'm not so. Kritter watches religiously every year at least once with the bonus content it's. I'm not, there's no shade and I'm more of a haphazard. Oh, I'm in the mood, I have a hankering and I'll just watch whatever version is on streaming.
Don:Cool, ok, so I have seen some of them. Ok, cool.
Jessica:Cool, I will say no more than.
Don:Yeah, that's a RAFO moment. That's a RAFO moment for sure.
Kritter:I feel like and it was sorry, Jessica, were you?
Jessica:the I was just going to point out to two. Last thing. One, there was a line in there by Bilbo and he says someone else always has to carry on the story. I thought that one line was just really, really impactful. So again, it's not not necessarily flowery like a lot of the literary umami bits that we pull on, but just another like single line, a tossaway moment, that just was very impactful.
Kritter:So I wanted it. That's deep, you know you hear that. Yeah, that's deep yeah.
Don:Like the words of a child you get is like oh, that four year old just said something that broke my heart.
Jessica:Profound, yeah. And then the last thing was that you know we really didn't get anything from Arwen on the page. We didn't have any speech from her, and I realized it's early, but your face kind of closed the camera for a second.
Kritter:We both made a face there. I put a little note here that said. I don't remember precisely how much we see Arwen, but I noted that by the end of the day we saw Aragorn standing next to her with a little like light on his breast, a star shining on his breast, and that was that, was it? Yeah, there she is so far.
Jessica:I was like somebody's singing. Is it Arwen singing? At least no, it's just random people in the background singing.
Don:Or they're random elves Are there a bunch of? Just read some elves.
Jessica:That's fine, like I'm all for you know, elf it up guys. Yeah, elf it up. But I was disappointed. I was hoping to meet Arwen, have an actual interaction with Arwen in this chapter, because, as we closed down book one, I was like I'm eager to meet Arwen. It was it was on my vision board. We'll get there.
Kritter:So before we get to the next chapter, I actually didn't put this in my outline, but I meant to talk to you about this, jessica, and also Don. We read the Hobbit recently. Obviously that was the first thing we read and we, when we got to Rivendell, I had forgotten how much like jollier the elves seemed in the Hobbit. Right, they're like teasing people, they're joking with them, everything is like all fun and games and giggles and whatever, and I was like I don't, I feel like the elves were like more level headed, I don't know, in the trilogy or am I just going to say autistic coded, but you sure.
Kritter:I mean that's. I feel like there's, and maybe I thought maybe I was being corrupted by the movies because they are definitely more like stoic in the movies, but now I feel like no, I feel like there's definitely a tone shift between Rivendell in the Hobbit and Rivendell in the fellowship. Jessica, did you feel that as well?
Jessica:Yeah, I think that yeah, I was going to say is it more the elves that were by the lake? They were very jolly, the elves, but the the Mirkwood elves, the Sylvan elves were very, very jolly when they were stealing the barrels, like, but I think I mean they were singing and jolly when they went into Rivendell as well. So it wasn't just, it wasn't just Thranduil's elves, it was all of them and I absolutely feel like it's a much mellower vibe. Yes, they're partying and singing, but it's not as prominent. I feel like they were. It felt very, it felt very prominent in the Hobbit, I guess.
Kritter:Even the songs seem more serious in the fellowship, which is so interesting. Don do you think there's like a reason for that, aside from the Hobbit being more meant for children?
Don:So there, that's the real reason is that.
Don:Hobbits, a Kid's book. The in-universe reason is that in the time between the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy, Sauron has returned and there's evil afoot. And the Nazgul have crossed the river and orcs are amassing their armies and all of a sudden they're very dour and just walking around as if everything bothers them. It's Tolkien describes it really well when he says the elves have been fighting the long defeat. So I will often chalk it up to. Oh, those moments of levity and joy that the elves have. They're very few and far between, because most of the time they're like all right magic of Middle Earth is gone. We should probably go to because we're attached to it like our physical beings.
Kritter:Yeah, so it is. It's the sign of the times, but also the fact that it's an adult book Rather than a kid's book, but but the sign of the times also. I mean, it works, it works either way, okay. So, book two, chapter two, the Council of Elrond. Don, when I saw that this was like I didn't, I didn't pick this sequence for you specifically, but the fact that this worked out is so funny that, like, we got the Council of Elrond with Don Marshall, so I'm really excited about this.
Don:What a chapter. It's like yeah, hey, hey, can we, can we get guys? You know what they really need? I can just imagine Tolkien talking to his publishers 45 minutes of exposition dump. What if we just made it super confusing so that I could explain everything that I could have explained narratively in real time but didn't? And the publishers, for whatever reason, were like yeah, I guess that works. So, it is, however my favorite chapter in the entire trilogy.
Jessica:So much no kidding we literally like okay, so so much information.
Kritter:It's a lot of information. So much information, many flashbacks, cutaways and Don. I can't believe this is your favorite chapter in the entire trilogy. I love that. That's true. Like what like are we? Are you Tverin?
Don:Sorry, that's a wheel of time reference, but anyway. So the real reason is that it has good exposition. Dump, the. The in-universe reason is that. The real reason is that that's the chapter I used to fall asleep to over and over again in the audio version.
Don:So I've, like I've memorized decent chunks and I can like recite verbatim, which is kind of where I got the ability to just recall that kind of information. It's like oh yes, of course, the third mountain from the right is Zirakz igil, doesn't everybody know that? And it was only like five or six years ago I realized no.
Kritter:Not everybody. No, no, no. I usually, when I do Lord of the Rings TikToks, I'm like what point do I want to make, like what do I want to talk about? And then I'll write down the stuff and then I'll be like I need to double check all of this. Excuse me.
Don:And then I research because it's like I do not want to be wrong. Well, look, I have to fact check myself all of the time, like because the Tolkien changed his mind a bunch, so I have to just remember which one's correct.
Kritter:Okay, that's fair, so we just said this. But this chapter was interesting because most of it was the characters catching us and the rest of the council up on stuff that had already happened off the page. First we get Gloin's account. Balin left the Lonely Mountain for Moria 30 years ago and the wall seemed well at first. Messages from Moria had stopped Dane's Dwarves and the Men of Dale had been approached by a messenger from Sauron offering friendship in exchange for information and a ring that a certain Hobbit possessed. So, Jessica, were you surprised about Sauron approaching the dwarves?
Jessica:So I was, because it's a little. It's a little bit of a softer touch than what I was expecting. Okay, yeah, so that's cool.
Kritter:It's giving rings of power, sauron kind of. Yeah, you know.
Jessica:I'm trying to think it feels more like a diplomatic play, and so, and then later on they talk about tributes being paid by the Men of Rohan, sending horses as well. Okay, so he's trying. Sauron, the enemy, via Sauron, is trying to make alliances with the different peoples of Middle Earth, to varying degrees of success. That's terrifying. You know what I mean.
Don:Like that's how you set up for war. Yeah yeah, that's just straight up bribery and it works.
Jessica:So because it's more insidious, made it more terrifying.
Kritter:Okay, that's fair. So, then we get the tale of the ring, starting with Elrond's account of Sauron learning the elves secret and forging the ring, the three rings, Celebrimbor made being hidden, of Numenor and Elendil and Isildur returning to Middle Earth, and an alliance of elves and men, gil gilgalad and Elendil, and the breaking of the sword and destruction of Sauron. Don.
Kritter:This all sounds a lot like the rings of power show. Do you see them basically fleshing out this pot, not just for the series like this all? Did they get the rings of power plot from the council of Elrond chapter?
Don:I can't say no and having spoken in person to the showrunners and the folks that were involved in it, is sort of even more. I don't want to say like thrilling, but there is a certain level of like a challenge accepted kind of deal, because when you don't have the rights to the Silmarillion you've got to make it out of the story that you're given and fortunately for the Council of Elrond.
Don:yeah, there it is, there's all of your story lumped into one. The stories about the first and second age are very few and far between in the trilogy. It's really only the Silmarillion that has like the meat and potatoes of it.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, so that's the outline, at the very least for Rings of Power Show. Maybe Ish, ish, ish. So I learned the word weregild from this passage yes.
Don:Did you?
Kritter:also learn this word.
Don:Yes, this I will wear is a weregild from my father.
Jessica:Yes, we have kind of a running thing going where we try to see who had to look up the most words. Weregild was very much on the list.
Kritter:I was like what in the?
Jessica:heck is this. And now I'm just to a point where I just highlight them. So I have all of these just random words. Highlight I had to highlight. This is so bad. I highlighted foreb ode because of the tense that it was in the context in which that it was in didn't jive with my understanding and you know he was a professor so he probably did it the right way and I've just been saying it wrong my entire life, but in the moment I was like I think I feel like I've grown up and I know what this word means. Why don't I understand this sentence? Those are moments that are captured forever in my Kindle. Highlights.
Don:What was the tense that foreb ode was in? Was it foreb ode he's holding? Yeah, OK.
Kritter:And while you look, while you look, I will say for those listening, if you didn't look up, what weregild means. It is man price, the amount to be paid to a person's family when that person is killed. So if you didn't know before, now you know, because I didn't know.
Don:If you need an easier, well, I did, because I also had to look it up, like when I was 14 or 15. Yeah, but I do want to reference that for those that are maybe like money for murder victims. That's sad. It's inigo Montoya, but a little bit easier. You killed my father, prepared to die or just pay me a bunch of money. You killed my father, give me some money.
Jessica:Yeah, I think, when I looked it up it said blood price and I was like OK.
Kritter:I think the thing I saw it was man price. I was like I need you to elaborate.
Don:Yeah, there's some annotate, there's some connotations there that don't vibe well.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, yeah, Jessica, how are you doing over there? I'm just going to search the word.
Don:How many highlights do you have?
Jessica:Don, that sounds like judgment OK, and I'm going to need you to not.
Don:I'm more curious that. I'm sorry, you're right, that did come off very judgy. I am legitimately more curious than anything because I am so fascinated about people's takes on Tolkien's language.
Jessica:So I am. We are mixed media right, so she does audiobook because that fits her lifestyle. I work from home and, like everything I stay home, so I'm a book reader per se. But I have switched to Kindle because being able to highlight and take notes and reference them on my next reads is like a drug I didn't know I needed in my life. So I'm.
Don:You know you can do that on paperbacks, it's just more frowned upon.
Jessica:No, no, no.
Don:Oh, I'm sorry, I've touched nerve here, your facial expression. Sorry, I've I've committed to some sort of sacrilege.
Kritter:Jessica and I are both book dragons. We collect them, we cherish them, we put them on shrines.
Jessica:They are, and I came by them at a great price. Like I can't, I just can't.
Don:You play, you paid the blood price the way I did.
Jessica:So I grew up that I don't even doing it in textbooks rubs me the wrong way. I just can't do it, and I care a hell of a lot more about my you know my fantasy books than I do about my textbooks. So I did find the forebode and it is in, that's a whole mood.
Don:You could put that on a t-shirt. I care more about my fantasy books and my text. Do you know how many college students actually here's that Merch idea for free Post this on TikTok and then say Link in my bio for that store.
Jessica:There you go Well right next to Mordor PD right Kritter.
Kritter:Yeah, we need to yeah, the last, I think the last episode, I think whenever they came for Fred agar uh Bolger and the fades or the fades Ring Wraiths, knock on the door. They were like open to the name of Mordor.
Jessica:And I was like I'm like the door for that.
Don:Yeah, the guys, the Nazgul are cops, I don't know, and I was like it totally gives me it, totally gives me the open in the name of Mordor PD vibe.
Jessica:That's what I got out of that.
Kritter:So Mordor PD is another merch idea that we have.
Don:Please make. I haven't executed yet, but I will yeah.
Kritter:I need to.
Jessica:So squirrel back on track. I found the forebode reference. It's an Elrond quote. You speak gravely, said Elr ond, but I am in doubt. The Shire I forebode is not free now from peril, and so I think of forebode as foreboding something that seems ominous, et cetera, et cetera. So in not hearing it like as an adjective or a gerund, you know, I was like I feel really confused by the sentence and that feels really dumb. So that's, that was the context, to answer that question.
Kritter:Never feel dumb, no, no, totally.
Don:I will say this to anybody reading the books you, by starting, you have already done half the work. If you don't get through it, that's okay, it is the books are not for everybody.
Kritter:I say that with my whole chest. Yeah, yeah, I say that about the Silmarillion. I say the Hobbit is for everybody though.
Jessica:Yeah, because the Hobbit's a much easier read, I think.
Kritter:Yes, yes, okay. So after that came Boromir's tale of Gondor being assaulted by the enemy and him and his brother having a sort of prophetic dream telling them to seek the sword that was broken in Rivendell under another name and mentioning a halfling. So Don Frodo has had several vision like dreams, and now we have this one with Boromir, our prophetic visions just a thing that can strike anybody in the Lord of the Rings. And if it isn't spoiler free for Jessica, where do you think or know they're coming from?
Don:Yes, they are just a thing, god is my answer to question two. It's so much more convoluted than that, which is where I get my nickname, because it's so obscure, but the short answer is sometimes the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.
Jessica:We Wotify every episode, so it's fine, totally fine.
Kritter:Okay, I love that. It's just. You know, god, that's the answer, it's.
Don:David Tennant's like. Never apply logic to Doctor who, but Tolkien coded.
Kritter:Okay, yeah, I'll take it. So we find out that Aragorn, surprise, has the sword that was broken and is Isil dur's heir, and he just agrees to go to Minas Tirith. And then he puts Boromir in his place, letting him know that the Rangers have been protecting the world far and wide, not just within some border. So, Jessica, were you surprised that Aragorn said he'd come to Minas Tirith just like straight up?
Jessica:I wasn't necessarily surprised. I was more thrown a little bit by the well and I shouldn't have been thrown. But like the Boromir Aragorn vibe starts right away. Like they don't hold back, they immediately start. I at some point in my notes I was like they feel very stepbrothery. One upish and a lot of their interactions and I feel like that started immediately right out of the gate, like the plot of Aquaman.
Kritter:Wow, wow, sorry, just just thought of it.
Don:That was so good. No, I love it Respect.
Jessica:Yep.
Don:So, that's.
Jessica:That's just the vibe that I got from that. I wasn't surprised I. I mean, I knew that. I knew that he was Isildur's heir because of poem album and the Crownless King. So, I was expecting that and I was expecting him to be all in.
Kritter:All in with the I'm the I'm the guy. Okay, cause I feel like in the movies he's more reluctant, right? He's like I'm going to follow Frodo, and then all of a sudden he gets kind of like thrust into this other path and it feels more like he's on the. He's on the I'm the I'm the guy path from the beginning here. Yeah, right.
Don:That is one of the major, that is one of the major book to movie differences is that character arc which, again, if we want to go back to rings of power stuff Galadriel in rings of powers character arc is going to be very similar to Aragorn's movie arc and both of those do not exist in in the books. They are yeah the print versions are very much like. This is who I am, and it's less about them becoming who they were meant to be, but rather the effect they have on others, right, Fascinating.
Kritter:Aragorn is different we talked about it too because, like in the in previous chapters, he's been like more kind of happy go luck. I don't want to say happy go lucky, but he's he's less serious so far in the books, in my opinion. He makes more jokes, he laughs more, which I think is kind of nice. So Bilbo then gets called upon to tell his story, Despite him asking for a little break. Elrond sort of ribs him about keeping it brief so he can take his break, his break sooner rather than later. And Bilbo does his thing, admitting to everyone Gloin mainly that his tale might be a little different than the one he initially told, which involved him winning the ring as part of the riddle game. So we've talked about this before that Bilbo and Tolkien both retconned the original version of the Hobbit, where things shook out slightly differently, Don, do you like how this was handled?
Don:I do, and it works perfectly with the most meta, obscure Lord of the Rings fact I think that I know in that there are two different versions of the Hobbit. In one, Gollum is very like evil, which is the one sort of we all know when he's tricksy and whole. In the other one he's a little bit more jovial and he gives Bilbo the ring and like leads him out. And then Tolkien was like oh, wait, a minute, I need him to be a central, you know character in this new thing.
Jessica:He never had to tell me that.
Don:Yeah, you mind if I just go back and redo that thing completely, it's. It's one of those things where you kind of get prepped for a character that is going to play such a pivotal role. And Tolkien does a great job of this. And, Jessica, I hope, having seen the movie, you can kind of pick up on the book things that Tolkien did to be like, hey, Gondor's a place, wonder when that's going to come up, or hey, the gap of Rohan. I wonder what that place is.
Jessica:When you asked me about my highlights, that's what it is. So I Lord of the Rings, I'm obviously being a trier too, so I'm going through and I'm highlighting things that seem to be relevant, even if I don't actually know the relevance right now. So when you asked me for the sheer number of highlights I probably will never disclose that number, so you'll think it'll be flattering.
Don:I respect it even more. I respect it even more. So, now that I know what you're doing, you had my respect, and now it's just up another level. Yeah, cool, very cool.
Kritter:So Frodo told his tale, and Gandalf did too, in order to convince the non-believers that Frodo's ring was the one ring. We found out how Gandalf went to Gondor to research the ring and Aragorn captured Gollum for Gandalf to question. We also find out that Gollum later escaped from the Elves of Mirkwood because they took him on walks and let him climb trees, and on one of those walks orcs attacked long enough to distract Gollum's guard. So first, Jessica, were you mad, on behalf of Thorin's party, that Gollum got way better treatment than they did?
Jessica:Yes, In the words of Gloin, you were less tender to me, yeah.
Kritter:I'm glad he spoke up honestly, because I was like, excuse me, you took him out into the woods and let him climb trees Not to take away from the tracking.
Jessica:Taking and holding of Gollum is a whole other thing A little brutal. We touched on a little bit about how we thought that might have been kind of a brutal situation.
Kritter:It sounded like Gandalf tortured him, like whenever he described it to Frodo, he described it as if he'd tortured him. Yeah, but maybe not. I don't know.
Don:I don't know if Gandalf, because it's like oh, this isn't exactly the analogy I want, but it's, I think, the closest I'm going to get. You know how a child will sometimes cry because you won't let them stick their fingers in the oven. Gollum very much over exaggerates and lies and like they tortured us, they pained us and sometimes that actually happens. It's mostly with Sauron, but I think there's a certain level of laying it on that Gollum might do. I don't necessarily know if Gandalf is torturing in like a physical harm. There might just be a little bit of like. I took it as like I'm going to lean into this guy's trauma and be like hey, you have some painful memories, I need you to bring those. He's like a weird therapist that traumatizes the patient.
Don:Casual psychological torture yeah it's a little more psychological, for sure.
Jessica:Sure, but at the same time, a therapist using their powers for not so good to meet different ends. You know that could be, that could be perceived in a negative fashion, and holding any creature against its will is rife with uh, rife with problems in terms of how it's viewed.
Don:Yeah, it's a war crime, it's very much so like. A little rife.
Jessica:I'm like the visibility is just not going to be good, no matter how you paint it.
Kritter:Uh, yeah, I was so mad on behalf of the dwarves, it's just like of course he escaped. So, Don, oh, you go ahead.
Don:No, sorry, it's just you've brought to mind something that I don't think I've ever like, fully unpacked a little bit, and that is sort of like Gollum's treatment, because I think you know, in a way, the elves oh, I got to be careful because I don't know if I'm right or not the elves might not necessarily even see Gollum as like a creature, like a human-ish, like a sentient being anymore, because his mind is so twisted. And it's interesting that you bring up like the humanity of Gollum.
Jessica:So Gollum is my Boromir, like what I've learned already oh. Is that I have a huge sympathy for Gollum, even just from the Hobbit read that I never had from before and I think that it just comes with age and perspective shift and everything. But I think that it's tied up with my views on redemption and other things that are very important to me personally, but I think Gollum is my Boromir Cool.
Don:All right, I love the Lord of the Rings because it always gives me something new to think about, because people bring their own perspectives. This is awesome. I love this sort of thing.
Kritter:Yeah, so Don Gandalf mentions that Gollum may play a part, yet that neither he nor Sauron had foreseen. This sounded a lot like a line Gandalf says in the movies, except I think it's while they're in the mines of Moria saying it, Frodo maybe. How do you feel about lines from the book being repurposed for the movies in different places and contexts, even changing from character to character?
Don:Yeah, this is one of the really big things that, if you were on the early days of the Internet forums, the One Ringnet and various message boards, there were a very vocal minority of book purists who were like this is awful, how dare you give Tom Bombadil's line to the tree or Elrond's line to Boromir? It throws off the whole dynamic. It's awful, and I think, though, that for me personally and maybe my bias is showing because I started with the movies-ish I saw the movies before I read the books the purpose of that sort of prose is to express an idea, and sometimes, in Tolkien, the character that says it doesn't necessarily even matter. It's the message that they're trying to get across.
Kritter:Yeah, I feel the exact same way, like whenever we noticed, whenever Tom, no, I noticed when Tom said something that I was like. Oh, treebeard said that in the movies.
Kritter:And it was cool because I was like I'm so happy that that made it into the movies, because that is such a cool line and that's what was important to me was that tidbits of the actual prose, like direct quotes, were making it into the movies. And so maybe that to me feels more like book purism or something I want that in there, right, and but I guess other people are like, well, how dare you leave out Tom Bombadil in the first place? So it's, a lot of people have different- he doesn't do anything to advance the plot.
Don:Just leave me alone.
Kritter:I know, I know.
Don:I, we, we, Jessica and I also deal with the like wheel of time.
Kritter:Like people are the same way, yeah, and it's great, um, anyways, wow. Oh, there was some oh my God, there was some mileage behind that side yeah.
Kritter:It's fine, we're fine. Wow, everything's fine, we're good. And so we're going to go back to the story of the Gandalf. Tale involved Radagast, who told him that the Nazgul were about and bid him to seek Saruman's counsel with haste. Gandalf decided to take him up on that, which is why he left the note for Frodo in Bree that never got delivered. He also asked Radagast, friend of the birds and beasts, to ask them to keep an eye out and send news of the enemy to himself and Saruman. And he only escaped because, Gwai hir, the wind Lord came to deliver him tidings. So, Jessica, I didn't say it out to you from this sequence where you surprised it wasn't a moth that saved Gandalf.
Jessica:I had written off the moth. I've given up on the moth. Um, I will mention that last chapter I took note of and highlighted Gandalf's appearance being described. So I was like, okay, I'm willing to accept that this, that Frodo's dream yeah. Had been of Gandalf, because I was unconvinced, because I didn't actually know what Gandalf currently looks like.
Kritter:Um, the white hair was what? The white hair? Because in the movies he's got gray hair and in Frodo's vision last time he was described as having white, shining hair and Jessica was like that's Saruman. And I was like I don't think so, but I will see. But we can prove it Now we can prove it.
Jessica:Yeah, um. And then the other thing that came up here is, you know because I do know that the betrayal of Saruman is coming, this scene they talk about long that he has long studied the arts of the enemy himself and I find myself consistently having the chicken or egg conversation Like, was he brought to the dark side whatever? Whatever Lord of the Rings version of brought to the dark side is.
Don:Is he the same vibe, same vibe.
Jessica:You know, is he brought under the enemy's spell? Because before he studies him or because he studies them? Oh, that can be a RAFO, it can be a RAFO.
Don:But, um, oh God, I'm probably going to get the quote wrong, but I'm going to quote Frank Herbert from Dune Uh, power does not corrupt, rather it attracts corruptible people, or something I'm paraphrasing, I think very poorly. Um, hang on, I can, I can Google it. Uh, okay, here we go. All governments suffer a recurring problem Power attracts pathological personalities. It is not that power corrupts, but that it is magnetic to the corruptible.
Don:So I think, yeah, and I uh put a lot of Tolkien uh influence in when I, you know, read Frank Herbert, because obviously there were uh, uh, you know, parallels that you pick out, and one is science fiction and the other is not, but there's definitely uh influences there, for sure, and I think the idea that Tolkien, at least, was going with is that even the most powerful people, can, you know, fall to their vices. It's like, you know, if we got rich and famous and became a Hollywood celebrity, we wouldn't change, we would do all of this nice stuff and get back to the community. But when we get there, how many times does it happen where, like, oh, yeah, I've got, you know, spinning rims on my 18 wheel tractor trailer that I bought for my kids as a playground, I don't know Something ridiculous.
Jessica:And there is a quote later in the chapter that says, uh, for nothing is evil in the beginning. So you know, and that's you know, supposedly talking about Saruman. So I I understand that you know, nobody's 100% evil and I don't feel like, I don't feel like at any point Tolkien has painted anybody 100% evil from the outset.
Don:Um, I couldn't help it.
Jessica:I couldn't help but wonder Saruman's motives, right Like was he drawn to the study because of his allegiance, or was his allegiance a product of his study, or something in the middle?
Don:Yeah, I think it's probably somewhere in the middle, but I think, for me at least, the implication is that here's a guy that you know, oh, it's kind of like the equivalent of reading like a couple of propaganda forums online and like, oh, just check it out, see what the big deal is. I keep hearing so much about it and all of a sudden you're on conspiracy theory, tiktok and you've signed up for Twitter premium and that's a. I'm throwing shade at Twitter in 2024, for just in case this becomes an irrelevant part of you.
Kritter:No, I love it. I love it yeah. So yeah that's kind of how I see it. So, don, I know you're pretty invested in Gwai hir, given your podcast. I find it notable that Gandalf asked how long Gwai hir could bear him and he basically told him pretty far, but I'm not a taxi service, so do you have any favorite parts of Gandalf's tale?
Don:That part because it answers the question that I get asked so many times, and I'm curious that, Jessica, did you ask yourself at any point why they didn't take the Eagles to Mordor? Had that come up in your head?
Jessica:No, but it's so. I never would have been able to give myself credit because I've heard it so much from following you. It's a meme yeah.
Don:And there's no, you know no shame in it.
Jessica:There's no way that would happen in my brain organically.
Don:That's fair. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I know a lot about Gwaihi r. I'm constantly thinking about him in takeover the world kind of ways. Sure, that's just where my brain exists nowadays, Love it.
Kritter:So Gwai hir. Highlight from the Council of Elrond. I also liked how Gandalf talked about wanting to melt all the butter off of old Butterbur for forgetting to send a letter to Frodo, and I was literally like, yes, same, obviously it all worked out. It all worked out, but man. I was still mad at him for not sending that letter. I'm still mad. We talked about it a long time ago Still mad, still mad.
Don:One of those things that, like, I'm amazed that he did, because it's such a small thing. It's like oh, I'm sorry, I just forgot. It's like when I see someone sneeze in a movie or TV show, I'm like that doesn't happen in that medium at all because it's unnecessary. You can cut out all the sneezes, it's extraneous. But like something as simple as oh I'm so sorry, man, I forgot.
Kritter:That's yeah.
Don:Yeah, that's how it goes, but also very frustrating.
Kritter:Yeah, so Tom Bombadil gets brought up and Elrond refers to him as oldest and fatherless. So we talked about this a few episodes back. But Don what or who do you think Tom Bombadil is? Do you have any theories or head cannons?
Don:So, based on what I know about Tolkien, the answer is Tolkien probably didn't even know, so speculation is at best just some fun fan stuff, yeah, so there's really no way to know. However, textually and contextually, you kind of get the sense that he is like this ancient, primordial being that was here at the dawn of time. So my two biggest theories currently are the personification or anthropomorphization, depending on sort of how you view it of God as like an old jolly man, and another is that he is the embodiment of something that might come up for you, Jessica, but that isn't a spoiler. But the beginning of the universe in the Lord of the Rings universe was created through music, and so he is the embodiment of that music. So those are kind of my two prevailing theories, just based on age and the fact that the ring does not work on him.
Jessica:Yeah, so I love that. So I already, we had already talked about you know what did we think? And I had thrown out a crazy theory that maybe, maybe they are Beren and Luthien reinvented, meaning Tom and Goldberry.
Don:Oh well, I'm going to start crying in T minus 10, 9.
Jessica:Because they're so precious and lovely and wonderful, and they have a little green forest. You know they have a bubble, they built a bubble, you know what I mean. Like they literally claimed part of a forest as their bubble and I just love that.
Don:Geographically, I think I need to decide whether or not that's close enough for me to accept it as canon, so I may spend the next few hours after we're done recording, I'll leave you my, I'll leave you my deets and you can message me with the outcome.
Kritter:That would be great, but I just love that I love.
Jessica:I love Tom and Goldberry. So Tom not to get too far off on a tangent, but Tom is Tom is the thing that the book purist scared me about when the movies came out. So I was not on the forums. But even if you weren't on the forums, if you were somebody who liked fantasy, you heard about all of these folks getting so riled up and having these big blowout arguments over how can you have a movie without Tom Bombadil. And in my mind, because I hadn't read them yet, I was like, well, that's justification that I haven't read them. Right, I can go into these movies with no, no baggage whatsoever, I don't have to care. But so Tom Bombadil is the. I had been calling him the Kaiser Soze of my childhood because he's this urban mythical creature that I don't know what he does, and so I couldn't wait to meet him. On the page Turns out I'm much more infatuated with Goldberry than Tom, but that's okay, Totally fair.
Jessica:So, I loved. I loved meeting them, but I immediately wanted to assign them roles, right, Like they're so incredible, they're clearly other and more than what they appear, and so in my mind I immediately went well, wouldn't it be awesome if they were Beren and Luthien revisited?
Don:Yeah, it would be really awesome if they were. Oh my God.
Jessica:And then in this, in this section, Gandalf is saying you know, Bombadil will fall last, as he was first, and the night will come. So last first and night, all capitalized, given emphases, oh, so I was then I was like is he Adam? You know, for lack of a better you know like, but I do kind of like the anthropomorphization, you know, of he who walks the earth. Oh, she, because I like the Beren and Luthien.
Jessica:I'm not. I'm not leaving that child behind. That was my first brainchild, that's my only, that's my only wild theory so far.
Kritter:but the good one. I like theory.
Don:You've broken me in a profound way.
Jessica:It was so nice to meet you. Thanks for coming on the show.
Don:Thank you for breaking me. It's an honor.
Jessica:I look forward to the TikTok about this. Can't wait.
Don:That's. I may actually make a TikTok about this.
Jessica:Okay, that's so cool I want it to be real more than anything. Just at me, that's all I ask. Just at me, I would.
Don:I would I absolutely will.
Kritter:Wow, wow, what a nice we're. So we're almost through this chapter but we're not quite done. But what a nice way to like. You know, almost finish oh my God. So, after exploring a bunch of different options, including some options, I thought we're pretty good, like throwing it into the ocean, the ring or hiding it with Tom. They decided they needed to destroy it, as impossible a task as it seemed, and the first person to volunteer was Bilbo.
Jessica:And I just got so like oh.
Kritter:I know I kind of teared up. It was like really, I just love him so much still. Yeah, this kind of what you said perfectly leads into this. Jessica and I have deemed Bilbo our relatable king. We both loved him in the Hobbit. How do you feel about him? Like? Where does he vaguely rank for you among Tolkien's characters?
Don:Bilbo is certainly up there for sure, and I appreciate him more and more as I age. Same, yeah, yeah, same. It's mostly a mood, but it's such a dynamic shift. I don't know if I ever told you this Kritter. I was diagnosed with growth hormone deficiency when I was really young, so I was like a good six to eight inches shorter than most of my classmates most of growing up through my growth.
Kritter:Wow no idea.
Don:And so I really identified with like the Hobbit characters, but like I was very like ADHD I didn't know it at the time but like ADHD Pippin bouncing off the walls, talking too much, cutting people off, getting into trouble, yeah, and I really identified with the Hobbits. And now that I go back and I watch the movies and I'm like Bilbo just wants to sit beside the fire and write songs and have a cozy life that he's earned.
Don:And I sit here, you know, a millennial, having witnessed more once in a lifetime hurricanes than I care to count and too many traumatic events in real life that I want to remember. So looking at Bilbo now, I'm like yeah, I get it now.
Jessica:We get it, man, we get it.
Don:Which is, I think, what makes it so great, because you know Tolkien's writing this from the mindset of a war veteran who is in the middle of World War Two, as someone who saw combat watching it happen again. So to think that you know as a self insert character which you know he technically wasn't. That was Faramir for Tolkien. But yeah, Bilb o is very much the. Oh yeah, sorry that might.
Kritter:I mean, she knows Faramir exists, so yeah, sorry.
Don:I didn't know how heavy handed I wanted to be on that one.
Jessica:But yeah, Bilbo speaks to me. That'll influence how I read Faramir when I meet him on the page which is oh, yeah, yeah.
Don:No, that's a great thing actually.
Jessica:I'm cool sometimes, for knowledge is cool yeah, it's.
Don:That is one of the things that I wish I knew, like I wish I knew all of these facts but hadn't read the books yet that way I could like apply, because it was basically like reading the Silmarillion for the first time. It's like Galadriel you know that name, I know her story, yeah so I'm storing up.
Jessica:That's why I'm taking all the wins from this book that we got you know, especially Council of Elrond. We get so much expo, don, that I was like when we get to Silmarillion I'm gonna be so prepared, I'm gonna do so.
Don:Good, you are okay hang on hang on hang on there was some heavy-handed sarcasm in my eye roll, just there.
Jessica:I want to acknowledge that it's okay however, your miles ahead of everybody else. You the fact that you're even really good partner to like she's really good at making it. No, I mean, it's sincere, she's really good at making it manageable. And when we sit there and we go through it and having this time every week to talk it through, it sticks so it's, it's honestly.
Don:I I don't know if I've ever expressed this out loud, but it occurs to me now that having a Tolkien reading buddy is super helpful for something like this yeah, yeah, yeah, different things even, which is nice, yeah, hair in front of me, nice.
Kritter:Yeah, it's been really fun so far, okay, so eventually Frodo, to his own astonishment, signs up for the task of destroying the ring and Sam appoints himself his companion. And that's the end of the chapter. Any final thoughts before we pick an episode MVP, which is something I did not warn you about, don here in just a few minutes you have to pick, okay, an MVP for this reading.
Kritter:So I can give you a top 10 and their rank if you really want okay, okay well before we get to the MVP though, like any final thoughts about the any of either the two chapters that we missed that you definitely want to, hit, so oh sorry go ahead no, for me these chapters sort of personify the reason why his influence was so great.
Don:You can feel the Dungeons and Dragons in this chapter. You can feel the old-world backstory prologues of Sanderson and George RR Martin, but it's in the middle of book one.
Kritter:For this there's no prologue, he just literally in the middle and I think it speaks to the fact that, like these two chapters take up such a huge chunk of the text because it's so important and it had such a profound influence on pop culture basically forget the fantasy genre, just like us as people yeah, yeah, also insanely memeable from the movies and you know that that sticks it in fight like yeah that it wasn't going to get stuck in the annals of pop culture.
Don:But that release, you know, one does not simply, yeah, it makes it memorable, for for new generations, every generation will, you know, find that thing to latch on to, and for us, it's Sean Bean making a circle with his fingers. It's.
Jessica:Jessica, I had all kinds of little ones, I'm not gonna go into them all. I think the one thing that I want to end on this chapter is my piece of I don't know again, I don't know if it's literary umami, because it's not. That it's flowery or pretty, but so meaningful is a quote from this chapter. It's my favorite quote from this chapter and it says yet such is off to the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world. Small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere. And I just what an incredible sentiment, you know yeah, that is.
Don:That is almost like the same spirit as and I don't know if you've heard this tick tock sound, but it's a Galadriel asking Gandalf in the hobbit why the halfling, and Gandalf says something very similar like it is the, the little deeds, yes, every day, acts of small people that they, they took that from.
Jessica:I like I've been trying to find that quote honestly. So there those. That's a moment that I absolutely adore from the movies, and I've been waiting to see if I get that language anywhere this is a.
Don:It pops up in a few moments throughout the book in probably some more flowery language, that some of it is from Faramir actually. So I hope that that comes along to you, because it's such a sentiment that is present throughout all of Tolkien and that I love so much yeah, that was really nice and I was it was flowery, I mean it's beautiful, like it wasn't a bunch of like long words.
Jessica:But you don't need long words sometimes whenever the vibes are just perfect and and they are chapter closes on a funny comment from Elrond about Sam saying even when he is summoned to a secret council and you are not. And I just thought that after that beast of a chapter that was hilarious and also, I believe, riffed on in the movies, if not actually in the movies yeah, it was about Merry and Pippin, I think, or like all three of them so Sam comes in and says Mr. Frodo's not going anywhere without me, and Elrond says indeed, no, it seems you can hardly separate you to with something whatever like the words secret council are in there for sure and yeah, yeah, absolutely not.
Kritter:You go weaving saying and you are not that forehead is just yeah, he's a weaving though like oh my god that man can act circles or anything, anybody could play Barney if he wanted to.
Jessica:He's been in so many incredible franchises properties like he just I would believe him in anything.
Don:I'm now picturing just like a very elderly wise. I love you you love me.
Kritter:We are a happy family you're welcome for that tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music. We'll start with Don. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Don:this is going to be a hottest of takes hot, hot, take okay it's Pippin and it is Pippin.
Don:I will say it is Merry and Pippin, but I chalk Merry up to being a little wiser than Pippin. Jessica, you may get this later. Everyone who is at the council understands the stakes. Sam, even because he was listening to a certain point, understands the stakes. Merry and Pippin have absolutely no idea what lies ahead of them and the only reason they are going is Frodo is my friend and I want to be there for him and help him okay, so I'm torn here, don.
Kritter:I'm okay because, Pippin doesn't volunteer until the next chapter. Oh, which is fine, which is fine sorry about. I would like to give you the option because Jessica's keeping track of this. So like we're trying to like really we're trying to like have a, have a season, a fellowship of the ring MVP based on who is picked in each thing. So I love that for next chapter or for next episode right it is.
Jessica:We can call him a write-in vote we if you had, if you had these chapters?
Don:yeah, who would it be? Oh gosh, um, I guess by default then it becomes Sam. But then I think something that you guys brought up that had me thinking ever since you did is well, bilbo offers to go again, and I think there's a certain level of like yes, frodo, he is the main character, he has that plot, armor, but Bilbo offering to go is like really speaks deeply to me for a number of reasons, but that's very impactful yeah, so we're thinking Bilbo for you, from you yeah, I think my vote is Bilbo, so my vote was also Bilbo.
Jessica:In the same vein and, and just to layer on top of it, bilbo has been on adventures. He is far more cognizant of the real danger facing him than probably then. Definitely that more so than Merry and Pippin, possibly more than Frodo and Sam although you know the events at Weathertop were harrowing, so I think and Bilbo being in the in the later years of his life, knowing what the, even more so now, understanding what the ring really did to him and still, without hesitation, standing up and volunteering to take it, yeah, yeah.
Kritter:I can't beat that vibe yeah, you guys have convinced me I didn't even convince me. No, I really didn't even convince me like and you didn't even mention, but like, first of all, my heart exploded the biggest when he did that, when he stood up and volunteered. That was insane. But then also in the first chapter he did that epic song and was like ribbing them all, like you can't tell the difference between something written by a hobbit and something written by a man. Like seriously, and yeah, and then Frodo's like, wow like it's like no, I wrote all of it.
Kritter:It's like JK, that was actually on me. So the fact that he wrote that big epic song with and he had the, he had the well I was we try not to curse here he had the wherewithal to make a song about Earendilnd in house of Elrond. I tried, I'm trying, I'm trying my best no, I applaud you for doing it.
Don:That was well done so, yeah, he's like.
Kritter:He's such a fun, dynamic character and sweet and brave and and since we're gonna be leaving him I'm sad, but I think he deserves it for this chapter, these chapters so it's unanimous, it's you know though yeah, last one, it was unanimous for Strider, because he got him.
Don:Oh, yeah or sure that makes sense. I wouldn't have gotten very far without Aragorn I believe that's what we said exactly saved you but like.
Kritter:Aragorn made sure you were there to be saved, so yeah, alright so Jessica and I both want to say thank you so much, don, for joining us before we do our having a sorry.
Don:We went like fully probably an hour over. I'm sorry, I told you an hour.
Kritter:We are longer. We are at an hour and 36 minutes, so it's fine it's just gonna be a longer episode, but we're glad that you stuck with us because the having here has been an absolute pleasure. I'm so happy that you said yes because I know you know you've got big fish to fry and that's, that's very kind of you to say.
Don:I do want to, just, full disclosure, tell you I've been playing hours of Baldur's Gate for the last two weeks, so like this was a welcome break from staring at my TV as my sneaky elf rogue was shooting his bow but you know now I just get to talk about the sneaky elf rogues shooting their bows in a book.
Kritter:Perfect, yeah alright, so that's gonna be it next week. If you're listening, read the Fellowship of the Ring book two chapters 3 and 4. Thank you, don, and thank you everyone who listened to episode 6 of season 2 of but are there dragons brought to you by your host, Jessica sedai and Kritter XD. Don't forget to follow us at. But are there dragons on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok? And? But dragons pod, just one T on X.
Kritter:He just experienced that live in person you're welcome you can also find your hosts on social media as Kritter XD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We're workshopping new catchphrases for season 2, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one. Thank you so much for tuning in. May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years. Nice bye bye.