But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 8: The One with a Balrog, Gandalf’s Fall, & Galadriel!
Kritter and Jessica are joined by Kat for this week's journey through chapters 5 through 7 of the Fellowship of the Ring. We learn more about the tragic end of Balin and his troupe and are ultimately confronted by the same evil from below! Orcs, cave trolls, and a Balrog, oh my! Then our intrepid force experiences its own sharp and sudden loss. With no time to spare for grief, the party minus one speedily departs Moria with orcs on its heels. Elves of Lothlorien happen upon them and help them to their next important meeting, with the Lady Galadriel (and Celeborn too of course).
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Kritter and Jessica are joined by Kat for this week's journey through chapters 5 through 7 of the Fellowship of the Ring. We learn more about the tragic end of Balin and his troupe and are ultimately confronted by the same evil from below! Orcs, cave trolls, and a Balrog, oh my! Then our intrepid force experiences its own sharp and sudden loss. With no time to spare for grief, the party minus one speedily departs Moria with orcs on its heels. Elves of Lothlorien happen upon them and help them to their next important meeting, with the Lady Galadriel (and Celeborn too of course).
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and worked their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, Kritter.
Jessica:And I'm your host, Jess.
Kritter:And we're continuing this adventure with the Fellowship of the Ring by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.
Jessica:And me as the Lord of the Rings first-timer.
Kritter:In this, our eighth episode of Season 2, we're going to discuss Book 2, chapters 5 through 7. But before we do, I'd like to introduce our special guest for this episode, Kat, who is a co-host on Queers of Time, a podcast focused on the queer aspects of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time series, who just so happens to also be a big Lord of the Rings fan. Welcome, welcome, Kat. Did I miss anything you'd like to mention for?
Kat:your introduction. You got it perfectly. Thank you so much for having me.
Kritter:Okay, super happy to have you Welcome. Welcome, how are things going for you guys? Before we dive into Tolkien, any fun happenings for you all lately.
Kat:So it's weird because there's kind of like a drought of Wheel of Time stuff right now.
Kritter:Uh-huh yeah.
Kat:So trying to find, especially like we are specifically a queer Wheel of Time podcast, so trying to fill in those gaps is interesting. But we're doing, we're sort of pivoting to queer books, so like we're like fantasy sci-fi books, and we're also doing some movies too, not necessarily fantasy, sci-fi, so that's going to be fun.
Kritter:Yeah, that's really fun. I love that. Jess, how are anything going on with you?
Jessica:Oh, you know, I just keep doing my arts and crafts for all my fun summer plans, to ignore the fact that it's February.
Kritter:Yeah, no, I feel that I am going to Disney World next week, so I'm very excited about that. I have never in my life been to Disney World, so I'm getting real hyped.
Jessica:Real hyped.
Kat:As you should.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, of course, like, I've got a Super Bowl party planned and so go chiefs, we'll see. I guess by the time this episode airs it'll be a couple days after. No, it'll be a couple days after the Super Bowl, or wait, no, it'll be like a week after the Super Bowl, won't it? Because we're doing this in advance, because I'm going to Disney World, wow. So you guys will all know whether that I'm disappointed or not, like immediately when you listen to this.
Kritter:Anyways, it doesn't matter because today we're talking about Book Two of the Fellowship of the Ring. Specifically, we're starting with Chapter Five, the Bridge of Khazad Dum. We left off last week at Balin's Tomb Wondering what happened to him. Gandalf finds a record of Balin's people from their arrival and partial reclamation of Moria to their utter defeat. Balin fell to an arrow, Oin to the Watcher in the water. I feel like this abbreviated story was very effective at setting a tone, like it did in the movies. Like drums, drums in the deep they are coming. We cannot get out Anything. Stand out to you from this Kat.
Kat:So I remember reading this as a kid and this was my first experience being like oh, this is what suspense is. This is suspense because up until that point it was kind of like lighthearted books that I had read, and the. Hobbit. I'd read that before this, but the Hobbit has some tense moments, but by and large it's pretty whimsical it's more whimsical even in the moments of danger. And this moment I was like, oh, this is scary, yeah, yeah.
Kritter:Gandalf's like reading a suspense book to everyone and everyone's just like, oh god, this is terrible. Yeah, Jess, any stand out moments from this.
Jessica:I, just because we went through the Hobbit together. Every time it references a member of Bilbo's party. I feel that heartache more keenly. So Oin getting too close. It's Ori's penmanship and I'm hearing that in my heart's breaking because I'm so much more attached to them after having read it, and having read it so recently. And then I'm like I wonder you know, I didn't really think much of it at all in the movies, but Gimli, like these, these were probably like uncles to him.
Kritter:You know what I mean.
Jessica:It's not just folks that he knows that died. These people would have been pivotal to him, and so all of that was way too real for me. At the start of this chapter, I was already heartbroken about oh, I'm going to have to actually feel Balin's death.
Jessica:And these things just kind of peppered it a little bit more. But, to your point, there is a lot of suspense here. There were definitely. I'm a little infamous for my highlights, kat, but there's definitely different parts that I was highlighting throughout it. And then I'm like I'm pretty sure this language was used in the in the movie. I can't wait to go back and do my post read, movie watch and see if I caught all of those moments. So that's kind of fun.
Kritter:Yeah, they definitely took the drums drums in the deep and I think they did a really really good job. Yeah, they really did.
Jessica:I thought that was a really good job, based on having read it now. So, Kat, can I ask how many times you've read like? Can I hear your credentials?
Kritter:Oh yeah, with Lord of the Rings I just glazed right past that. Such a good question.
Kat:So I read the Hobbit first I was in grade five and then the movie. The first movie came out in, I think, in 2000 or so, 2001. Around there, and so I read the book. When I heard the movie was coming out I was like, okay, I have to read this series, I have to get into it. And I actually found my first copy that I had of Lord of the Rings. I know the listeners won't hear it, this is my first copy here.
Kritter:Oh, the movie it has like the movie, the movie tie-in.
Jessica:I love it the movie art cover. So I have like a slim promotional booklet about the Lord of the Rings that they made about the movie making process with that cover art. I believe that's funny.
Kritter:I actually, so I have also a movie tie-in cover. But I have the tiny, the little mass market paperback. Ooh yeah, and it's Frodo with Sting on the cover. And then the back we have Aragorn, saruman and Galadriel.
Jessica:So what I find?
Kritter:so funny about this is it's got visit wwwlordoftheringsnet, One online keyword, Lord of the Rings, and I'm like whoa.
Jessica:Did you feel the dial up? Did you feel the dial up in your soul, In my soul?
Kat:I felt it.
Kritter:So, yeah, I have these, I have multiple versions, but like, so, whatever, my husband and I moved in together a lot, we have a lot of the same taste in books, and so we ended up having to well, we didn't have to, but we like, donated or gave away, like our duplicate copies, and so one of us had the movie tie-in and the other one had the like or like more original mass market paperback art not original obviously, cause like that that would be intense. But yeah, so we ended up. Yeah, we ended up keeping the movie tie-in ones, because I love the movies and this is what we ended up with. So, yeah, good times.
Jessica:The only thing that worked in my favor with that is that Mr Jessica doesn't have a lot of physical copies of books. Thankfully there was not a lot of duplication, because getting rid of books is a hard topic in this house.
Kat:Oh my God, it's tricky.
Kritter:They are precious to me. You can buy them at a great pain, so Kat, have you done rereads or is that, was it like as a kid foundational, and then we've moved on.
Kat:So I feel like, at almost like every four to five year intervals, I do reread of Lord of the Rings and also the Hobbit. I just kind of get in the mood for it. It's usually in the fall time that it hits. Fall or winter? Obviously yeah, yes, exactly, if you know, you know, it's just a big time to strike out on a quest, absolutely absolutely, and so, yeah, it's the last time I read it, probably two years ago now.
Jessica:Two or three years. And just one more piece of context Did you, are you someone that watched the Rings of Power or no?
Kat:I have watched the Rings of Power. I have complicated feelings about it. Valid yes.
Jessica:Valid. I just tend to spout off whatever thought pops into my face without thinking about it first, and sometimes those are references to Rings of Power, and so I thought I would try to be mindful and ask.
Kat:I appreciate that. I appreciate that.
Kritter:Okay, I had one more foundational question for you. Of all the Tolkien books, which one's your favorite?
Kat:Oh boy, I think it's the Hobbit.
Kritter:Yeah.
Kat:I think it's the Hobbit. I think probably because it's the first one that I read. I read it. I think a very foundational age to it just gives me. It gives me all the warm cozy. Yeah, it just it's, it's like pure fantasy for me and it just, yes, yeah, re-reading it does it for me every time.
Kritter:Re-reading it last winter, like a few months ago, I had forgotten like how much I loved the Hobbit. And now I'm over here like I don't know how these books are going to top it, man, like I had such a fun time reading the Hobbit. We'll see, though. We'll see.
Kat:They're. They're great books, these ones. So I did, I, sort of read from the beginning up until this sort of chapter seven I guess, and I forgot. I always forget how much I love fellowship especially. Yeah, it's still super delightful.
Kritter:They're all great, really, I think it's the moral of the story, okay, okay. So any more questions for her before we continue with the chapter no I think that's it. Yeah, no, that was smart. We should have done that at the beginning. Okay, so the party soon realizes that they are not alone and they get into a bit of a skirmish before they can flee or fly, as they say in these books. Neither Jessica nor I are battle girlies, kat, are you any thoughts about this little fight?
Kat:I have a hard time tracking battles in books. It's trying to figure out who's doing what and who's going where and how things are being stabbed.
Kat:It just my mind just can't track it, and so it kind of blazes over it a little bit until something happens and so like something big will happen, I'm like, oh, okay, oh, now I have to go back a couple of sentences and actually like read it properly so I can get a handle on it For the context, exactly, exactly, but not particularly like at the big moments I'm like, oh, that's cool, this is really cool. I like how I love how they adapted this sequence in the movies. I think it translated really well, but it's. I'm not a, not a battle girlie.
Kritter:Okay, none of us are battle girlies. Then, jess, is there anything that you clocked from this?
Jessica:I mean I did, but it's not battle related.
Kritter:Okay, well, that's fine, but what was it yeah?
Jessica:The two things Cave trolls don't have toes.
Kritter:Yep, yeah, that was. That's a little interesting fact.
Jessica:And that orcs are shorter than men because the orc captain was described as almost man high.
Kritter:Oh so now Kat.
Jessica:You understand what kind of reader I am.
Kritter:You're like oh, interesting. Okay, so there were a couple of things that stood out to me from this one. For some reason I have this like little vendetta against Boromir, for like almost no reason I think it's like I think it's movie baggage, but anyways, I got a ton of satisfaction out of him not phasing the troll at all when he like tried to like slash at it. And then Frodo comes up and just like like really upsets the troll by getting it with sting. And then Aragorn's like one for the Shire. I don't know. I was just like, yes, one for the Shire. So that was like that's part of the battle that I really liked. So I was like get it Frodo. And then also Sam got his first orc kill with fire burning in his eyes.
Kritter:That would have made even Ted Sandy man step back. So, I personally couldn't remember Ted Sandy man. I was like who's this Ted Sandy man? So I looked him up, but he was. He was the one at the beginning in the Green Dragon who was doubting Sam and all of his like to him, right, yeah.
Jessica:e was telling him the story about his cousin.
Kritter:And he was like okay, sure, like he was, he was the yeah skeptic and so I guess they're like little like small town rivalry. He's a little nemesis, right, so I thought that was fun that that came up to, obviously not as battle related as like wait, sam, what are you doing buddy? But it was great. I thought he did.
Kat:He, he, he, he slayed, as they say there we go as the, as the kids say, as the kids say Sam slayed in the site.
Kritter:Okay, so then they fly. Gandalf attempts to bar the door behind them, but then encounters something he's never seen before and becomes nearly spent. They ultimately make it to the bridge, but a Balr og comes to face them. To me, this was Gandalf's finest moment to date. How did you feel about it, Jessica?
Jessica:I would. I would tend to agree with that sentiment. I would say that we saw, you know, you mentioned him being spent. There was a comment in there about he tried to utter a word of command, capital C command, and that didn't work. So we've already seen him kind of go OP and he's, you know, far beyond fireworks in terms of his power and he, you know, is clearly completely at his limit to take on this baddie. So yeah, I was incredibly impressed Glamdring glittered white, like there was just there was a lot of really beautiful stuff about this and again, I can't help but compare. Sometimes. I do feel like this held up well compared to what I remember from the movie.
Kritter:Like it withstood the test.
Jessica:Yeah, I think this conflict was well done, because it was certainly impressive on the page, even for a non combat girl.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I tend to agree Kat anything from this that you like dislike, yeah.
Kat:So I mean, it's really kind of the first time that we see Gandalf in a position where he is very much unmatched. We've seen him in a position where he's more evenly matched, where he may be a little bit, you know, out of his realm, but he's still kind of in control. And this is really the first time where we're like, oh, oh, this could actually go really badly, because, yeah, it keeps stressing that, he keeps saying like I am spent, I am spent, and I'm like, oh no, if Gandalf is spent then, then what?
Kritter:Well, Boromir and Aragorn are like hey, we're going to do it, we're going to completely fall back, which was like yes, nice, but also boys, what are you doing?
Jessica:Like what I know. I felt like that was kind of yeah, gandalf's, like, your swords will do no good here. Yeah, boys and their swords.
Kritter:Oh, that was. You were like oh, come on, guys, come on.
Jessica:That's fair. Well, just because you have this incredibly powerful being, it's taking everything he's got and you're like that's like a toothpick. What do you know?
Kritter:Though in like D&D, you can what assist. Maybe they were just trying to assist. Well, and also, to be fair, Boromir's horn did make the Balrog stop for one second.
Jessica:He blew that dang horn.
Kritter:Yeah, and it worked for a second.
Kat:I actually I did highlight that too. I was like oh okay, the horn Cool.
Kritter:They've got to be good for something. I guess it's brief intimidation or at least stun effect. I don't know. I'm trying to like classify it D&D terms, but who?
Jessica:knows he has to stun, stun last around, yeah okay, yeah, he has stun.
Kritter:That's perfect. So I flagged one line from this and I think this line pretty much word for word made it into the movie. But when Gandalf is like wielding his staff and a sword and he says I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun.
Kritter:Like, granted, Andy Serkis was reading it to me and he was doing it in a spectacular, but I, Ian McClellan, was in my head and I was just hearing it and I was like this is so cool, Gandalf. He, yeah, that was a really cool little fight.
Jessica:I can't imagine anybody but Sir Ian McClellan at this point.
Kritter:No, I know.
Jessica:There is just absolutely no way.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah.
Kat:He is Gandalf.
Kritter:Yeah, now and forever, amen, amen. So Gandalf goes down by with whip. With the whip it gets him very sad, but the party's gott a bail right. So the party, except Gandalf, finally escapes Moria and, once clear of bow shot, basically just breaks down in mourning to faint echoes of doom from under the mountain. So I found the doom very fitting. Doom without Gandalf sounds about right. Any thoughts for the end of this chapter before we move on?
Jessica:I just had one other quote, actually from Gandalf, before they took on, before he faced the Balrog, saying to Frodo that you take after Bilbo. There's more of you, more about you than meets the eyes, as I said of him long ago.
Kat:Yeah, it's. I think the that final moment with Gandalf just saying fly, you fools again very well captured in the movie as well. It's just, it's. It feels so final, it's, it feels like such a finality to it and an inevitability to it too. And of course, it's just devastating seeing everyone's reactions, because you know, he's Gandalf and for Frodo especially and for Sam too.
Kat:It's, it's just, it's just so sad like it's. Frodo has kind of, you know, left Bilbo behind and now has lost Gandalf and is on this huge, massive quest that he is probably now realizing he may not come back from, and it's just, it's just heartbreaking, gut wrenching.
Kritter:Yeah, it made it very real, really, really real Gandalf went down like that. Yeah it was a big, bummer big, although all of us know what ultimately happens. But, still at the time bummer like I can't imagine what they're all feeling, yeah it makes me tear up every single time.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, the way everyone reacts to it is just like heart wrenching. I think I'm like a sympathetic crier or whatever. You know like when I see other people crying then I'm way more likely to cry. And so, yeah, every time I hear about people grieving or like Gimli when he was grieving over Balin I was just I hate it, yeah.
Kritter:So, let's move on. Book two, chapter six, Lothlorien. So Aragorn insists that the party continue on, lest orcs catch them up once night falls. At one point, Gimli took a brief detour to the Mirror mere, a dwarvish land a dwarvish, that's hard to say landmark of sorts with ties to Durin, where this is where Balin was actually shot, because he wanted to go see it by himself. Gimli insists Frodo come with him and of course Sam follows. So, Kat, we love Sam and how loyal he is. Do you have a favorite hobbit?
Kat:I think it's Pippin.
Kritter:I think it's Pippin, pippin is just so much fun.
Kat:Yeah yeah, pippin is my guy. Well, that's fair.
Kritter:I totally get it. He's really fun. I always love his commentary. We need people of some intelligence on this quest. Gandalf's like we better not bring you. He definitely brings in that humor element. There's just a light heartedness to it that I think it's very needed in the room.
Kat:Oh sorry.
Kritter:Yeah, no, it's fine because the books are way more. These books, like the trilogy is much heavier than the hobbit, right, and we get lightheartedness in the hobbit from the narrator and just like the quippiness of between the dwarves and Gandalf and Bilbo and everybody's so quippy and whatnot. But you know, once you hit the trilogy it's just everyone's so serious except Pippin, kind of. And then every now and then you'll get jokes from other people, but definitely not as much. This is Kritter interrupting your regularly scheduled podcast to let you know that, due to unforeseen technical difficulties, we lost Kat's recording for the rest of the stream. So if you only hear Jessica and Kritter for the remainder of the stream, it's not because we don't like Kat, because we love her, it's because internet can sometimes be the worst Carry on. Okay, so, Jessica, did the Mirror mere catch your attention at all?
Jessica:It did. It also kind of inadvertently made me think of when Sam and Frodo are going to be crossing those weird places, following Gollum later on, based on the movie.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:So I try not to do that, but that's kind of what that made me think of.
Kritter:So that, for whatever reason popped up, Because they mentioned, like Durin looking in, or like what made you think, what made you like draw that comparison.
Jessica:I think it was just like the Mirrormere made me think of like marshes, and so marshes put me in the mindset of the three of them trekking through the marshes, you know, through very specific scenes in the movies.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:And then, of course, the fact that they went there and and that was, you know, the site where Balin died, is just super, super sad.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Yeah, just crazy. I had also written down, though, that chapter six starts with an I told you so from Aragorn.
Kritter:Fair.
Jessica:Yeah, oh, so not to take away from the landmark, but you know chapter six, you know chapter five ends on legitimate heartbreak. And chapter six starts with Aragorn going. I told you guys we don't want to go into the mines of Moria and nobody listened to me.
Kritter:You don't always expect that from Aragorn. This the snark. Well, I don't know if I would call that snark. It might have just been more frustration than anything else. Like gosh, dang it, guys. I knew that was going to suck.
Jessica:I said I had a bad experience in there. You guys didn't listen to me.
Kritter:Yeah, oh, that's a good point. Shouldn't have passed over. Shouldn't have passed over that. Okay. So after more travel, Legolas points out that Frodo and Sam were struggling, and Aragorn apologizes profusely for not tending to wounds they'd taken in the battle before then. So he goes Dr Quinn medicine woman on them and in the process discovers Frodo's Mithril shirt, which delights him. Jessica, I'm wondering at this point could Aragorn be more dreamy?
Jessica:Maybe, and I only say that because I feel like the movie introduced the love between Arwen and Aragorn already, so you were already viewing him as a love interest.
Kritter:Uh-huh.
Jessica:And you know, all we've seen is he was standing next to her.
Kritter:Right yeah.
Jessica:Nothing this nothing narratively, has told us that they are involved. So really all of my interactions with Aragorn have just with been with him being a Ranger and the long lost heir of Isildur. Those are suitably dreamy things. He's got mad skills.
Kritter:Suitably dreamy. Yeah, I guess that's true. He's just. It comes equipped with all the things you would expect a Ranger to be able to do.
Jessica:Uh-huh, perhaps I think I mean, but that's just frosting. I guess you know his real core shows through with things like he disagreed on the call to Moria, but when they were all grousing about not you know, Gandalf wasn't figuring out the password fast enough, he told them that they, you know, should have faith in Gandalf. He's still dreamy, even though they haven't dangled a love interest in front of me.
Kritter:Uh-huh.
Jessica:And I'm fine with that. Uh, just the integrity you know he's got incredible skills. He does have that, um, I don't know if it's a troubled past, but kind of yeah, you know he's not necessarily had it easy. He definitely clicks a lot of the typical hero boxes for me.
Kritter:Yeah, brooding.
Jessica:Brooding skilled smart Athletic.
Kritter:Yes.
Jessica:And also the integrity piece. So, like I was, saying the fact that he you know, wants a orphan?
Kritter:yes, A classic.
Jessica:Yes, it is, he just needs somebody to love him.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:And I'm here to apply for the job, but anyways he's a really stand up, dude.
Kritter:I have no problem with the fact that we don't technically really see him with another love interest, because that just leaves room for me. You know, that's just an opening that I can happily walk through. So the party stops for the night and Legolas tells them of Lothlorien and sings them a song of the Lady Nimrodel. So, Jessica, did you have any thoughts on this particular song?
Jessica:I thought the song was interesting. I got really excited about Legolas being excited about the water. I got really excited for Legolas getting pumped up. So we've talked about how a lot of times the elves are portrayed in a very stoic way in the movies, and so whenever they deviate from that, it always kind of stands out to me and so he was genuinely excited and for him to be singing a song. This was out of character from the Legolas I've known so far.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:That's fun. I thought that was cool.
Kritter:Yeah, I thought that was that way, but that is kind of different. Okay, so forgive me for this next, but Aragorn decides the party might want to take a leaf out of the elves book and sleep in the trees. Pippin doesn't love the idea. I know, I'm sorry, I know, I'm so sorry. Pippin doesn't love the idea. And Legolas suggests he dig a hole in the ground and digs swift and deep lest you get caught by the orcs. So I took this as a dry humor which I really appreciated coming from Legolas, kind of like you know, Jess you were like wow, it's an elf being excited. Well, for me it was like wow, this is an elf being hilarious. So is that how you all took it, or was he being like mean?
Jessica:I did think that it was funny, I did think that it was a mean girl. Like I don't think he had any intention of honestly leaving him to his own. You know success or failure on the ground, but I did think that it was unnecessarily harsh Like, oh, dig your way to China. Essentially, you know, and good luck with that. That's how that came across to me in my read.
Kritter:Okay, well, dang, I thought it was just a funny joke, but no, I mean it is right, Like it is definitely a zinger.
Kritter:It was both. Okay, no, that's fair, that's totally fair. I feel like later I want to say the other elves that we meet from Lothl orien they say that Sam breathes so loud they could shoot him in the dark. That to me felt kind of like the same type of humor, because they're not going to shoot Sam, right, but it's like they're kind of like ribbing him or whatever, just like jabbing him a little bit and which is funny, because I feel like that was Bilbo's joke about the dwarves.
Jessica:Yeah, yeah, you know, the dwarves were so loud that they could be heard coming from a mile away, and now it's getting thrown back on the hobbits.
Kritter:Yeah Well, and in the movies it was Gimli right, that they were referring to when they say basically this line. So it was funny that they switched it over to Sam and he's so embarrassed, which I think is so funny, but Sam's like it's not going to be me, I'm not going to give us away, okay. So the party encounters Haldir, the elf of Lothl orien, who agrees to shelter them in their little tree platforms for the night, though it took a little convincing by Frodo to get them to agree to Gimli's presence. Any standout moments from their night in the trees for you, Jessica.
Jessica:I really like Haldir. I think he might be my favorite elf so far, wow, okay, why? Because he seems like the most level dude. You know he does not seem. You know, Legolas's daddy is a little problematic.
Kritter:Mildly yeah.
Jessica:Mildly. Elrond is pretty cool, but also kind of lofty. Haldir seems like a regular kind of salt of the earth. Elf Sure.
Kritter:Salt of the earth, you know. Yeah, leaf of the tree, if you will, he comes across, yeah.
Jessica:He's like leaf of the tree. You're not going to let that dad joke go.
Kritter:Sorry, but they're tree elves, I don't know.
Jessica:They are tree elves. I just felt that when you come upon as an elf, I would have expected to see a little bit more. Unfortunately, a little bit more prejudice for a multi-race party.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:And I thought that, all things considered, Haldir wasn't as biased against the different members of the party as I thought he would be, so I thought that that just started him off on a really good foot at least.
Kritter:Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, I was surprised that Frodo was the one who was doing the persuading, also when it came to letting Gimli join them, and that they eventually relented.
Jessica:They did get second supper out of the deal, so that was also something I took note of.
Kritter:Yeah, we love a second supper on But Are there Dragons. They happen only ever so often, but they're always lovely. I think it was Farmer Maggot. We got a second supper spectacular night.
Jessica:So it's been a minute.
Kritter:It's been a minute since we've gotten second supper, but we had a good time with it. So the next day, Haldir guides the party across a river and toward Lothlorien. Eventually, he lets them know that he needs to blindfold Gimli, which Gimli initially refused. Jess, was there anything from this little trek that stood out to you?
Jessica:There was a quote from Haldir on this one which is part of the reason why this chapter led me to think that this Haldir guy seems like a pretty solid elf. He Gimli I'm paraphrasing because I didn't highlight the whole thing Gimli makes a comment about how we're allies with a common enemy, and yet you're still finding the need to blindfold me is ridiculous. And Haldir replies indeed, in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who still oppose him. So if you're not paying attention sometimes I don't. I am a woman with mixed attention span, depending on the day I've read this and I had to go back and I had to reread it because I think that it's a really powerful sentence because, if you think about it, it's akin to that was the greatest trick the devil ever played to convince man that he didn't exist. It's the same kind of thing, right, keep your enemies divided so they can't unite against you. That level of insight being dropped in that sentence, and I just thought it was brilliant.
Kritter:Yeah, and it's interesting to me too that Gimli protested and he's like I've never sided with Sauron like the enemy ever. Why would you think I was untrustworthy? But that just reminded me of the revelation in the Council of Elrond that Sauron was courting the dwarves from under the mountain, and so it's just kind of like, oh you know, it's not completely true that you're just totally shielded from any influence, right. Because they were like what do we do? They weren't just like we're not going to do it, they were like we need Council because I'm not sure, right. And so I think there was I don't want to say there were some merits in not trusting Gimli because, like everybody's obviously being influenced in different ways, there are groups of men who are sending horses to the enemy too, so it's not just the dwarves. But yeah, the times they were rough and then that breeds suspicion that it was just tough to see, but eventually obviously they got to unblindfold, which was a relief, I think Okay.
Jessica:And then there was just one other thing in the section Kritter I wanted to bring up. Haldir refers to Lothlorien as an island. So this is a concept that was floated, I think, by Elrond when he first jumped into the Book Two part of fellowship, talking about Rivendell and the Shire as islands where you know, I'm inferring, but islands where the enemy doesn't hold sway but, eventually they're fighting and they will lose, and Haldir echoes that sentiment here about Lothlorien also being, you know, a bastion of light, but they are an island surrounded by the enemy, so just that echo caught my attention.
Jessica:And yeah, it just there's these pockets where good is holding out, but they seem to be more and more remote from each other.
Kritter:Yeah. So the chapter it ends with them finally reaching Cerin Amroth and Sam describes the feeling of being there as like being inside a song, and Aragorn is lost in a fond memory, clearly about Arwen, and then he leaves the hill hand in hand with Frodo, never to return again. Tolkien does a really good job with beautiful and sad Like. This balance that he has in Aragorn keeps being the one to me that's like representing this sentiment for a few times throughout this book. So, Jess, how did you feel about this ending?
Jessica:I thought it was great. My favorite passage is around here, the hill of Amroth, because I can't remember. Is it Cerin Amroth? Yeah, yeah. So… when he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still, Frodo the Wanderer from the Shire would walk there upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in Fair loth lorien. So you know just a very flowery way to say that in his mind when he, you know, daydreams, this is the place that he goes to, and I just thought it was gorgeous.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Just very lovely yeah it was beautiful.
Kritter:Okay, so that's the end of the chapter. We're moving on to Book Two, chapter Seven, the Mirror of Galadriel. So this city sounds absolutely stunning. If you like trees, we've got the silver-barked, tall, wide mallorn trees that have golden leaves in the winter that apparently only grow there, and the living spaces for the elves seem to be seamlessly integrated with the trees. Would you want to live in Lothl orien, or is there somewhere else in Middle Earth that you would prefer?
Jessica:I think I would go with Rivendell over Lothl orien and I'll tell you why.
Kritter:Okay.
Jessica:The Lothl orien elves make it very clear that they miss the ocean. And you know what? So would I.
Kritter:Okay, Rivendell is not like on the ocean, but is it. I guess it's closer.
Jessica:It's closer, you know, and then in one of these chapters I think it was Merry was talking about there is there are pockets of elves beyond the Shire who are close to the water, and I do it makes me think of that that roving band of elves that was kind of patrolling around the Shire loosely at the beginning of the book.
Kritter:Yeah, I think like I love trees, I'm a trees girly, and so Loth Lorien would probably be my pick, at least among the realm of the elves. But I always just kind of go back to the Shire and it's like how stinking idyllic, right, like peaceful, like it would be. It would be very small town life. So I can see, you know, like Belle and Beauty and the Beast, I might eventually get like an itch and want to want to wander and so if I had to decide, I'd probably pick Lothl orien, just because it's like out there and beautiful and magical, but I would always probably want to go back to the Shire and at least visit, because it's so it sounds like a really good place to live.
Jessica:So we want to be Gandalf is what you're saying.
Kritter:We want to trek to everywhere To be Gandalf. Yeah, just perfect solution, honestly Okay. So when Galadriel and Celeborn learn of Gandalf's death, the elves all begin mourning him. Celeborn expresses frustration that Gandalf led them into Moria, where the Balrog was, but Galadriel kind of defended him, noting that needless were none of the deeds of Gandalf in life. Those that followed him knew not his mind and cannot report his full purpose. So I really like that statement goes for those who read about him too, because he's pretty mysterious to us sometimes. Jess did you appreciate that it seemed to be. It seemed to me like Galadriel really did seem to know Gandalf, like who he was, what he was about.
Jessica:Yeah, so I did think that it was telling that she defended him kind of sight un seed right. Like just blindly, you know. Nope, I'm not going to believe that that man doesn't do anything needlessly. Also, the way she described you know they don't use the word dead Galadriel states that there's a gray mist about him and the ways of his feet and of his mind are hidden from me, which clearly I've seen the movies. So I am, you know, hoping for that comeback and I can't wait to see what that looks like in print.
Jessica:But it definitely jumped off the page at me that you know she never once referred to him as dead and she's clearly. She seems to me to be the brains of the operation. You know she says that she's the one that first summoned the White Council. She seems like a very powerful figure. So if she thinks that Gandalf knows what he's about, then I feel pretty comfortable taking her word for it.
Kritter:We believe her A powerful queen, we stan. So Gimli, when he addressed her, actually got real flowery, calling her more fair than all the jewels that lie beneath the earth. So did this surprise you, Jess? It felt like a pretty quick attitude shift to me after all the like back and forth between the dwarves and the elves.
Jessica:Yeah, so it did. But at the same time, the book immediately answers the question why does Gimli love Galadriel so With a sentence? You know the way that Galadriel spoke of his homeland, speaking the terms in Dwarvish as opposed to Elvish, immediately endeared her to him.
Jessica:And so in the movies, I'm left to assume that it's just because she's so pretty and so awe-inspiring. But this is this hit. So much better that it's. You know that she has an appreciation of his homeland and respects his culture enough to speak of his homeland in its own terms. And that is just a chef's kiss to me.
Kritter:We love to see it. We have this thing that we call literary umami on the podcast. So Galadriel here says your quest stands upon the edge of a knife stray. But a little and it will fail to the ruin of all. Oh sorry, I'm going to do my best, Cate Blanchette here. Yet hope remains, while all the company is true. So then she just stares them all down like looking into their souls. How would you have handled that one?
Jessica:I think that I probably would have been kind of enamored and then be like oh wait, what was the question? I think that probably would have been me in that moment, because that's what I like, that's my run home to mama when I'm nervous. I'm like I was squeeing. I didn't hear you. I'm sorry, What'd you say?
Kritter:I'd like to believe that I'd be more like Legolas and Aragorn like, don't, like. Okay, we're in a staring contest. Now Just don't look away, Kritter. You've got this, but you know, who knows? I've never been in the presence of Galadriel.
Jessica:I mean you're pretty bold, I bet you would.
Kritter:I just yeah, I don't like the idea of looking away, even though I'm sure it was intense To the extent that obviously it didn't actually happen, but it would have been, would have been intense, okay. So Frodo came up with a song in this chapter, a lament for Gandalf, that I personally found really sweet, and so I'm not usually a song's girly. There are a few that I like, but the ones that I do like I really like, and this one, I think, because it was related to Gandalf, it kind of like hit me a little closer to home. First I was like, oh, is this Bilbo? And then I was like, no, the more I like. Then I like kept listening. I was like, oh, no, okay, I have to re-listen to this whole thing. And I started from the beginning knowing that it was about Gandalf and I was just like, oh man, good for Frodo, Like it hurt. It hurt a little bit, Jess, how'd you feel about it?
Jessica:I also very much liked it, but from Frodo's perspective because, much like you, it said you know right at the beginning that Frodo is not want to create poems or songs, and it just spoke to how deeply moved he was about the loss of Gandalf, and so over relating to Frodo and over emoting in his general direction is what drew me in. And then, of course, you know, Gandalf is a very important figure to me as well. So, yeah, but I came at it from the Frodo side of the mountain instead of the Gandalf side of the mountain, is all.
Kat:That's fair.
Kritter:So eventually Galadriel brings Frodo and Sam to the titular mirror of Galadriel. Sam peeks in first, wanting to witness a bit of elf magic, but he does not like what he sees, any standout visions.
Jessica:Yeah, so this was hard to read and just because I don't know necessarily the metaphysics of her mirror, if it's the possible future or the guaranteed future, it really put me in mind of Flicker Flicker.
Kritter:Okay, yeah, Wheel of Time reference.
Jessica:So, yeah, you know, just the same kind of mechanism and granted, it's just one instance, right, but that for whatever reason, that's all I could think of, and how upset he was. And you know, eventually she offers to let him go and she goes, he goes. No, I'll go home by the long road with Mr Frodo, or not at all, and just, my guy. You are too precious.
Kritter:I know, I know. Also, ted Sandyman came up again, which I thought was funny. Yes, except for that it wasn't funny because he was chopping down trees in the shire, yeah, and Sam was obviously got super irate about it our gardener, I thought that was. It wasn't funny. It was really cute and precious that he wanted to protect the trees and that Ted Sandyman was going to catch it hot if he came home and ended up being that way. So I don't know, just reading this passage I realized and I already knew, but I just love our environmentally friendly king Like you got to respect somebody who's going to protect the environment like that.
Jessica:Well, it definitely did. The comparison piece of their small world Like this was the small scope of their world and the kinds of things that would matter to Sam yeah. That would dominate his entire perspective.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:Six months ago Right. You know, what I mean, like that would have been an all-encompassing thing and the world is so much bigger than that for them. So it was a great contrast from that as well, like they're on this incredibly challenging, dangerous mission and otherwise he would just be worried about you know, ted Sandyman, his local nemesis yeah.
Kritter:Yeah, okay. So after Sam looks in the mirror, frodo looks in the mirror. He thinks he sees Gandalf, then second guesses himself because the figure is wearing white. He sees some ships, the ocean and, ultimately, the eye of Sauron. Jess, was there anything that stood out to you?
Jessica:So again, gandalf in white, huge, huge jump off the page, kind of thing. Yeah, makes me think that we're seeing definite future, but also like I don't remember the shire coming under any harm. So now I'm conflicted with the foreknowledge that I have and what the mirror is showing.
Kritter:So yeah, prophecy can be tricky. Assuming that's what's happening is prophecy, who knows? Sure Galadriel wouldn't even give them a straight answer about it. Okay, so, speaking of Galadriel, it's revealed to Frodo, after he goes through his visions, that Galadriel has one of the Elven Rings of Power, Nenya. And then Frodo offers the one ring to her. He he's to me. I found this funny because it feels like he's just really trying to get rid of the ring. He really doesn't want the ring. Would this be you?
Jessica:I'm like you seem really qualified, you like totally have a handle on this thing. Why don't I just go ahead and leave this with you?
Kritter:Yeah, like this is above my, this is officially above my pay grade, you feel like just the candidate. And and of course, we get the big scary Galadriel speech that we kind of got in the movies. Though the words were a little different, it was still very intense, regardless of the words being tweaked. So, um, Galadriel ultimately refuses the ring and when Frodo asks her about its powers, she explains that the rings give power according to the measure of its possessor, and since Frodo isn't exactly all powerful, he's seeing its effects in small ways. So he's basically got a perception buff at this point. So did you find this little sequence interesting, Jess, or do you? Do you have any final thought or thoughts about, like, the rest of the scene with the Galadriel?
Jessica:So I think that I think that for the chapter closing, I thought that the Galadriel scene was intense and I loved it Just as intense in print as it was on the screen, if not more so.
Kritter:Andy Serkis screamed it at me. By the way, it was intense on the audio. It was really stressful. But sorry, continue, it was really stressful.
Jessica:So I think that Frodo, asking her about why can't I see them if they can see me, was really telling right, like he is.
Jessica:Simultaneously does not want this burden and has made no bones about it from the get-go, poor kid. But also, this is a tool, this is a weapon Like why is it only a burden to me? Why can't it help me be better for this situation? And so I don't recall ever hearing that in the movies ever raised in terms of Frodo being like how can I make this? Show me things. So I thought that that was interesting, that he was at least you know he's being a little less passive. I guess you know what I mean.
Jessica:Trying to be, an active participant, like if I have to carry this thing anyways, is there a way that it can help me better defend myself?
Kritter:Right, yeah, so we don't get. There's not a ton of women in Lord of the Rings I don't know if you all noticed and so Galadriel is one of the big ones. Right, she's one of the big ones. So we, now that we've fully met her, not like we're not done with her yet, but like we've officially met her in this sequence, Jess, how was your introduction to Book Galadriel?
Jessica:So Book Galadriel is a little bit of a mixed blessing, because she really is a powerful queen that I've been looking for right Like I had hoped that she would be that. You know right up, front and center on the page, and she is so.
Jessica:I know that Tolkien can do it and believes in those types of characters. So that's lovely. I started thinking about it the other day. I think the only female I've read on the page is Lobedia Sackville-Baggins, like I don't know that we've had any on-page interactions with any other females to this point. Like with dialogue, that's tough yeah, like Arwen is introduced, but we see her from afar and that is it. She's not even singing yeah, so that's tough. So Galadriel is all that in a bag of chips and I love it.
Kritter:Don't get me wrong.
Jessica:I love it, but it does make me go. Oh, this is going to be a boy fest for a lot of the rest of the trilogy and it just kind of stings a little bit because I know that he can do it. You know, I feel like she hits, she resonates for me. You know, she's just very present and powerful and unapologetic Not something I would expect from something written 75 years ago.
Kritter:Yeah.
Jessica:So it's a little bit gives with one hand, takes with the other, I guess.
Kritter:For sure. Yeah, she's deep, she's intense. There's a lot going on with her in this chapter. Obviously she was very, very tempted by the ring, which was fun to read, but I'm glad that she passed the test. Who knows what would have happened if she didn't? But yeah, she's complicated for me. I don't think I would put her near the top anywhere near the top of my favorite Lord of the Rings characters, just because obviously she's, her appearance is so brief and she doesn't do anything like she does. Oh, I don't want to spoil the next read so I'm not going to, but like it's, thank you, you're welcome. So, anyways, she's, she is complicated. I'll just leave it at that. Okay, so that's it for these chapters. Do we have any overall final thoughts before we pick our?
Jessica:MVP that I think that's really the first time that sadness really hits me. So to your point, I'm still learning what the significance is of going into the West is. I did a whole rant about how I don't really understand the elves, the hierarchy, who's got special skills, who doesn't have special skills, and that's fine. I don't have to know how everything works, but I think that Lothl orien highlights that, that this is a significant time of change for the world itself, kind of above and beyond the enemy, you know.
Kritter:Loth.
Jessica:Lorien drives that, drives that home more than even say Rivendell has so far. And then you know the sadness of losing, the sadness of losing Gandalf, all the sadness of Aragorn leaving. You know the Galadriel kind of ends on a bittersweet note, even though, as someone who hasn't read the Silmarillion, you know at this point the reader probably doesn't understand the significance but can feel this seems weighty. Yeah, and just we're. We're almost through this book.
Jessica:So, that's, that's what struck me at the end of this and like the next batch of reading and we're done with the fellowship.
Kritter:Yeah, okay. So we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music. Who would you name as your MVP this episode? We would like you to know that Kat picked Samwise Gamgee for her MVP. Even though you cannot hear her, we could hear her and this was our reaction to her pick. Okay, I love that. Anytime Sam gets MVP, I'm happy because he's my, he's my fave, he's such a supportive guy. Um, okay, Jess, who would you pick?
Jessica:Well, I also was going to go Gandalf, but now you know that does follow your heart.
Kritter:man, Be true to yourself.
Jessica:So I'm gonna I'm actually going to, though I'm gonna I'm gonna pivot to Galadriel, because I think that I think that her interaction is short but pivotal with every member of this crew.
Jessica:Okay, and I say that as somebody who still doesn't understand Galadriel's full background, but the fact that she tempted them all and they all passed gave the boys a glimpse into the mirror and withstood the last temptation of the ring. These are all very important, significant things, I feel, in this journey, in this quest, so I'm going to give it up for our girl, Galadriel.
Kritter:Wow, okay. So this is going to be uh, we're all going to have a different pick, because I think this series of chapters even though he was only in one of the chapters, this was peak Gandalf. I think Gandalf dominated these, these chapters for me. Um, just because it was the most epic thing he's ever done on the page and I loved every second of it and I thought the prose was great. I thought like, if there is a fight that I am hanging on, word for word, you know it's a good fight, and so and he sacrificed himself for the party, just generally. So all of those things combined make me pick Gandalf, like without hesitation, no doubt in my mind. I think he was just inspirational and incredible in the scene, in this, in this sequence. So he's my pick. Gandalf for the win. Terrific, okay.
Jessica:All right. Well, that's it for us for tonight. So we would ask that everybody for next week read book two, chapters eight through 10, which should be the end of fellowship, which is wild, um. So we would like to say thank you so much for tuning into episode eight of season two of but Are there Dragons, and that is brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sedai and Kritter XD. Please don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok and But Dragons pod just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as Kritter XD or Shelf Indulgence. That's it for us today. We continue to workshop catchphrases for season two, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one. But go now with good hearts. Farewell, and may the blessings of elves and men and all free folk go with you.
Kritter:Bye. Thank you so much, Kat. Bye.