But Are There Dragons Podcast
Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two fantasy-loving friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. We've already made our way through The Hobbit, LOTR, the Empyrean Series, Project Hail Mary, and we're currently working our way through Dungeon Crawler Carl!
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 1: The One with a Funeral, Uruk-hai, & Riders of Rohan
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Join Kritter and Jessica as they dive back in with Two Towers, chapters 1-3. The action is high as we find out what becomes of Boromir, run multiple marathons with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas, and catch up with Merry and Pippin!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Two Towers Book Three Discussion
KritterWelcome to , but Are there Dragons ? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time . I'm your host , Kritter , and I'm your host Jess , and we're continuing this adventure with the Two Towers by JRR Tolkien , with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran .
JessicaAnd me as the Lord of the Rings , first timer In this our first regular season episode of season three .
KritterWe're going to discuss book three , chapters one through three . It's a lot of threes . Keep up Before we dive in . Jessica , what is new with you ? How are you feeling ?
JessicaI'm good . I'm fresh off of JordanCon it feels like still but was really excited to get back into this book . The night we got home I started my reading assignment and it's good to kind of get back in the groove with Tolkien .
KritterIt was a little alarming .
JessicaChapter one I was like who am I ? Do I go here ? Who's doing what to who ? But I'm happy to be back in the swing . How about you ?
KritterFeeling good , so I started this read . It was on the plane to JordanCon , actually , and so it was the first time that I was listening and kind of like working on the outline at the same time instead of going back through after . I listened to the whole thing and it was . I feel like it was pretty efficient , and if you could be one three , you whole thing . And it was . I feel like it was pretty efficient , and if you could be one three , you should be efficient . But no , I really enjoyed these first two chapters . It was nice to get back into it . I did take a little breather , read a couple of books in our hiatus in the interim , and so it's good to be back to Tolkien , for sure . I think we talked about this a little , but you read a couple of books as well , correct ? During the interim .
JessicaI did so . There is a an author that I became familiar with through Brandon Sanderson named Darci Cole , and she does some YA gender bender fairy tale retellings . And I backed her Kickstarter and I mass consumed the first two books of the Unbroken Tales trilogy because the Kickstarter was backing her third book , which is coming very soon , and they were . They were so much fun . It was my first time jumping into YA official YA , not miscategorized YA uh-huh , uh-huh and uh , it was really enjoyable .
JessicaIt was very nice and light it was . There were still definitely serious themes . Um , it was . It was just a really good palette cleanser for sure , not to mention fun content all on its own , yeah nice .
KritterI read ledge by stacy mcguin um , I think that's what you pronounce , I'm not sure . Uh , the color , the covers are beautiful , but the reason I picked up the book in the first place is because we're mutuals on tiktok and she is hilarious . She's got this series where she just like training your fantasy husband and it's so funny . Um , the book is , it's , it's uh , oh , it's kind of hard to describe . It is a romantic scene , let's put it that way , and it was a fun little romp . It was much lighter and easier to read than the lord of the rings , and so the palette cleanser factor was definitely there . And then I also reread yumi and the nightmare painter to prep prep by Brandon Sanderson , to prep for my Yumi and the Nightmare Painter panel at Jordan Kahn , which I think went really well . So it was a fun reread . It was my first reread , so now I've read it twice .
KritterI maintain that the book is super fun and cute and Brandon Sanderson's at least tied for his best romance and and yeah , so it was nice to revisit that in the interim . But I , as I said , very happy to be back to talking . So you want to dive in , let's do it , okay . So I don't know if this was the case for you , but in the audiobook the there was an epigraph um , and we got the one ring to rule them all poem thing . Did you have that , or was that just the audiobook ?
Jessicawas it ? Do you mean between book two and book three ? Did I get that ?
KritterI guess you're asking me , I guess , the audiobook for the two towers ? The very first thing that was read to me was the epigraph , and it was the one ring to rule them all . I did not get that okay , well , never mind immediately .
JessicaSo I have the trilogy as one compilation file on my kindle and there's the end of book two . Uh , second part of lord of the rings of two towers , marked as book three , immediately starts with chapter one , the departure of boromir okay .
KritterWell , there's a little deviation I think I was cheated . Well , I don't know , because part of me was like I feel like that has happened . We've heard that in the book already . Like , didn't we ? Because isn't that what's inscribed on the ring ?
Jessicaum , yes , so when gandalf had thrown it in the fire . I think we had heard that content at that point right .
KritterSo I was trying to remember like I feel , like this isn't new , I don't .
KritterI don't think it would have for the first time showed up in the epigraph of the two towers and , uh , turns out I was right . So okay , um , it was nice to hear . Obviously , the tolkien has some beautiful verse , but that was not something you were privy to . So let's dive right in then to book three , chapter one , the departure ofomir . So , given that chapter title , we knew what was coming . What I wasn't prepared for was how different it was from the movies . How are you feeling about Boromir's end ?
Jessicaum I I don't know that I've had , I don't know that how many books I've read like in a series . So there aren't that many series reads that I've done really . Um , middle books and trilogies are are tough for a lot of reasons in my , in my limited experience . So starting off on such a very action-packed sequence was a little disjointed um the ways in which it was different . I felt that the emotion was bigger here . I felt that aragorn's um this uh desolation at boromir's death , um his he continued to do some emotional hand-wringing because of boromir's death and uh took on a little bit more .
JessicaI feel not necessarily that he took on fault , but like he really uh took took this as a blow . I guess it was a really big deal that Boromir died . He was very aggrieved by it . It seemed like he took at least partial responsibility because of lack of decision-making . I don't know .
JessicaI had a little bit of a hard time with Aragorn's response to Boromir's death , the fact that he is the heir of Denethor , an identified hero in his own right , all of that you know , peer to peer I can understand . He just seemed very emotional compared to how , I mean it was . I guess it was emotional in the movies . It felt more , I guess , on the page .
KritterYeah , I feel like the death scene in itself , or at least whenever they discovered him and Aragorn had that moment with Boromir before Boromir . In a lot of ways the movie dialogue did where the books really didn't . And I know that we were I was , I at least was a major boromir hater . Last book and this didn't really redeem him for me . Like even in it , with his dying breath , he was like you should go to , I'm just like bro , bigger picture .
JessicaOh my god so I had a couple of feelings about that one . I can't remember what was said in the death scene because it's been that much , it's been long enough that , like I can't really remember okay , I remember aragorn being there . Um , to your point about him not necessarily redeeming himself , he did confess you know a little .
KritterYeah , he did .
JessicaNo , the confession was a point in his favor um , I feel like you're entitled to your opinion , no matter what I say . I feel like the last call to minister was still just to point out that this is him at his core , right .
JessicaLike he is a faithful servant of his people till the end , and that was how I took that , not that that has to change or impact how you took it . Like , yeah , I had just a little bit of a problem with the , with aragorn's reaction in the book , but at the same time I liked that it did feel more emotional and relevant to him than it did in the movie .
KritterSo yeah , do with that what you will yeah , I do think that , like now that we've moved from the death , I think the funeral scene was just beautifully written .
JessicaLike absolutely .
KritterThere was literary umami dripping off the page in that scene . I didn't write any down because I was on the plane and whatever , but like damn , I don't know , that gave me chills and they came up with a song , just like on the spot , about Boromir and all of his deeds . And then , of course , ghibli didn't . He's , like you guys , left the bad verse to me , so I'm not going to take that on .
JessicaYeah , it was . Just it was very iconic . That's what I had written . That it was incredibly and you know to your point the literary umami right , the callbacks to , you know , in the history of Minas Tirith going forward , the . In the history of Minas Tirith going forward , the long boat will always be remembered . So it was . I thought that it was very beautifully written . I do feel like it was represented in the movie , from what I remember .
KritterYeah , no , I think the movie was maybe the his . The funeral scene was more abbreviated in the movie for sure . So like I guess I would give the death scene in the movie was better , cause like well , we also , well , we actually , we read about it later , but like the death scene in the movie was better , the funeral scene in the book was better in my opinion that's where I'm at yeah , okay , so let's see two roads diverged before Aragorn Gimli and Legolas , and notably Minas Tirith was not one of them .
KritterHow do you feel about Aragorn's Gimli and Legolas , and notably Minas Tirith , was not one of them . How do you feel about Aragorn's choice to follow the captured hobbits instead of the ring bearer ?
JessicaI was happy because he made a choice . He's been paralyzed .
JessicaYeah , a little bit of the decision . Paralysis has been a little difficult for me and I did the language that he had in there . I thought Tolkien had a nice job . You know I don't think I have a part to play anymore in the ring bearer's quest . You know , I think that I did take note , though he did say would have gone with him until the end . There is a line in there that does in fact say it , so I thought that jumped off the page at me .
Discussing Aragorn's Decisiveness and Eagle Sightings
JessicaI did like the fact that he acknowledged that made a choice and was decisive . I also only at that moment , though again because I'm such a passive reader was like oh right , they don't actually know where anybody is . This is the Scoobyoby-doo mystery of it all , and I have to uh stow what I know and see what they learn on the way to try and figure out what happened to all the hobbitses I feel kind of like a hypocrite , but I am a thousand percent willing to forgive aragorn for giving up on frodo and going to follow Merry and Pippin would have .
KritterBoromir would have made that decision . I'd be like Boromir , focus on the task at hand , it's all about the ring .
Jessicamy dude Boromir would have chosen Minas Tirith and not Merry and Pippin .
KritterYeah , they wouldn't have even been in the picture . It would have been all about Minas Tirith . I agree , and so , yes , I just wanted to acknowledge decision stance no , I'm happy with this . I think aragorn made the right choice . You know , it's one of those like no hobbit left behind situation .
KritterI think it was the more ethical choice , especially because it didn't take away any agency from frodo who had clearly deliberately left them for a reason , and aragorn kind of read the tea leaves like okay , this is possibly just how it's supposed to be , um , and thankfully sam is with him , so at least there's that , um , okay , so this chapter was pretty short , but pretty important . Do you have any final thoughts before we move on ?
Jessicajust I don't , um , I don't remember ever reading like a middle child book that starts with such an iconic death . Um , so it was quite a way to jump back into it . I think that's probably my biggest vibe from chapter one yeah , chapter one was a major .
KritterThis was meant to be one book flag like sign signpost .
JessicaYeah , now I have to go back in the discord and see all the comments made about the transition from from the fellowship to the two towers . Now I can go back and read those .
KritterYeah , it's kind of rough because , like , I think there was a little bit of like , oh , fellowship ended up like , with a little bit of a whimper and then , right at the beginning of two , two towers , it's , you know starts with a bang . So there's , uh , yeah , it's , it's just , you know , you , you got to think of it as one story , I think , and then all of your complaints go away , all of them . There aren't any left . I think you're probably right . Okay , so book three , chapter two , the writers of rohan .
KritterUm , now I'm , uh , from the movies I'm a bit of an , a of more girly . Like , growing up he was the guy I had a crush on . It wasn't legolas , it wasn't aragorn , it was aomer . So I was . When I saw this chapter heading , I was like let's go . So , anyways , let's uh , they travel day and night by , they I mean legolas , gimley and aragorn across terrain . That sounds absolutely gorgeous . Um , aragorn looks longingly to gondor and legolas notices an eagle far away , perhaps the same eagle aragorn spotted last chapter while he sat on the seat at the top of the hill . Any guesses what this eagle is up to ? Or stand out moments from this early part of the chase ?
Jessicamy very first bullet is there's an eagle super high up uh-huh throwaway comment super sus . That was my very first comment on this chapter um I don't . I don't know what the eagles do because they have autonomy . So it turns out they do things for for no apparent reason and I I'll find out later . Um , so I'm not 100 sure what to think , because the eagles are intelligent and have autonomy and do all kinds of stuff yeah , part of me was like , okay , sorry , just keep going .
KritterKeep that thought . But , like with the eagle , I thought , okay , they've seen the fell beast before , right , they encountered a fell beast , so surely they wouldn't like , miss like , or they they wouldn't call it an eagle if there was a chance that it wasn't an eagle . And then , and then that made me wonder , like , what the hell are these eagles up to ? I guess they're just keeping tabs , that's all I can guess .
JessicaSo , and keep going , well , and then I was going to make the comment . You had mentioned the geography that they're trekking through um and so this is our first session .
Jessicaback after a little bit of a hiatus , and I was reminded that I don't know as many words as I think I know . So in this chapter I was looking up meads and fens and reed and wools , All of these words where I'm like I think that I'm a fairly well read individual . And then we jump back in and I get my reminder that I know nothing .
KritterYou know that's good of you , though , because , like all several of those words you mentioned , I don't know what they're actually , what they actually are in my brain .
JessicaThey are landscape they are they are in fact landscape , and and that's um but I think that's a little bit of the I I need to know thing . It's a little ridiculous , it's it's a little ridiculous .
KritterYou're learning things . I didn't look it up , so I didn't learn anything .
JessicaSo meads is just another word for meadows , turns out that makes sense . Fens are like moors or marshes . Okay , wouldn't have guessed , all right . And I had to look up , read , and now I can't remember . But it's like getting a read on a joint , getting a read on a place , like getting a beat on a place . I have it highlighted and I can send it to you , but it was just . It stood out for me again , because I'm reading and not doing audio . It's spelled differently . It's R E D E .
KritterOh , okay .
JessicaWhen I heard reads , I probably just assumed , like greenery , you know . Yeah , no , it's r-e-d-e which stood out to me , and same with walt , w-o-l-d , um , which is like basically a high place . So I , I mean , I did take the time to look them all up , but well done it's a little I'm like , oh so some humility to start .
KritterBook two got it got it , got it , got it , okay . So , um , we have not . Well , a little ways into the trek , they discover a brooch right the lothlorian . Uh , it was the bro they . They called it the broach right . I'm not making that up .
KritterOkay , and Aragorn says Not idly did the leaves of Lorien fall . First reaction to that was man . I wish people talked like that , Like in real life . I don't know there's so many instances of that in these books , but like that one in particular was like Not idly did the leaves , it just delighted me . I don't know if you want to call it literary umami or what , but anyway they found a sign that the hobbits were still with the orcs , thanks to pippin trying to make a run for it . Did this surprise you ?
Jessicait did not surprise me , but I also took note of how aragorn speaks .
JessicaSo I did have some literary umami pulled out from this chapter and they were all airborn quotes so at one point in the track Gimli is grouching because he says he wishes he had the great light that Galadriel had gifted to Frodo . So Aragorn says it will be more needed where it is bestowed with him lies the true quest . Ours is but a small matter in the great deeds of time . So again had a moment where I was like nobody talks like this anymore and it's just incredible , even just reading it in my own internal dialogue . And then a couple of other beats again from this chapter . There was a silence that did not seem to be the quiet of peace and another quote that said weariness that is in the heart more than in the limb . So just you know , right back into it going .
Kritteryeah , this guy can write oh , oh , the writing's so good . Um , so yeah , this trek sounds horrible . But uh , gimley decides he wants to take a break at nighttime . Legolas , the cross-country runner , wants to keep going without any breaks , and they leave the choice up to aragorn , who we've learned isn't the best at making choices lately , although he has been getting better . Aragorn ultimately sides with gimli , so I don't know if gimli has ever been more relatable , and I don't know if I expected aragorn to make the choice that he did . Do you have any thoughts about this exchange ?
JessicaI thought it was good because , Legolas I don't know if you remember this I kind of remember this moment from the Fellowship where Aragorn had somewhat ceded control to Gandalf and Gandalf made a call and Aragorn backed him up as his number two going .
JessicaHe's the one making the call , nobody better to lead us through here and I felt like that role shifted to Legolas in this that they had a dialogue , the three of them as peers . Aragorn had a moment where he's second guessing himself , saying essentially nothing's gone right since argonath , so I'm not sure how to make this call yeah legolas gave his opinion . Gimley gave his opinion .
KritterLegolas said that he would respect the choice once made , and he did yeah , yeah , I felt like legolas was a bit hasty , like I mean , you know , I get that an elf can keep going , but you have to take into account your companions and so , yeah , I really felt for Gimli in this exchange , but I appreciated Legolas' willing to follow whatever Aragorn decided . I think I would have made the same choice , but ultimately they get to the point where they think they've been left behind , right .
KritterThey can't hear anything really in the ground . But then Aragorn sees a blur in the distance and Legolas sees horsemen , spears glinting , and counts them to the man , identifying their leader as very tall . So Aragorn sees a blur , legolas sees everything in HD 4K , no problem . So it's times like these that I remember that being an elf is like pretty amazing , yeah , awesome .
Riders of Rohan Encounter Analysis
KritterUm , how are you feeling about the chase before the horseman showed up this pre-horseman phase ?
Jessicait sounds very discouraging . It sounds very difficult and strenuous and discouraging , right , you know the idea of one of them laying with their ear pressed against the ground , just trying to listen for anything that the ground might tell them . Also , I thought this chapter did a really good job to your point of highlighting the more arcane aspects of being an elf .
JessicaSo there are some references that are made or some implications that I made , based on things that were said in this chapter , like , for example , elves don't need sleep the way that men do , and that sometimes it's like they're sleeping essentially with their eyes open .
KritterVery D&D , honestly .
JessicaVery D&D , very D&D , honestly Very D&D .
KritterSo I thought that that was neat that those references were in there .
JessicaI did feel like their track sounded crazy hard and as we go on in the chapter and we meet the riders , we find out just how long of a track that is .
KritterAnd that's insane . Yeah , I have . I have it in my outline . We find out they covered 45 leagues in four days , which I looked up .
JessicaUh and correct me if you looked it up and it was wrong 135 miles , correct you got league is roughly three miles , almost a 5k um , and so , yeah , I came up with 135 miles . Divided over four days is roughly 34 miles a day more than america , so the normal human , yeah , a human , you know . Foot speed is like three miles an hour . That's 10 hours at a brisk walk , slash jog that's insane .
Kritterthere's a lot of steps Way more than a 10,000 step day .
JessicaAnd again my heart goes out to Gimli . So Aragorn has some genetic things working in his favor . Definitely Legolas .
KritterDoes you know , because of being an elf , Gimli and his stubby little legs , I know the fortitude of dwarves Just mad props one of my favorite lines from the movies is the uh I think it goes something along the lines of dwarves are natural born sprinters , very dangerous over short distances . I say that all the time because I hate long distance running , but I was a actual sprinter in high school in track , so you know all districts , and four by one , let me tell you . So I I say the same thing all the time when people , when people are like , oh , do you like to run for your workouts ? And I'm like , just absolutely not , but I am very dangerous , yeah , I , uh .
KritterIt's one of my more repeated lines . At the very least , there are so many you know bangers in the movies , but that one comes up all the time and , uh , it just made me think of it , this whole sequence where gimli is just struggling to keep up and miserable . Um , yeah , okay , so the people of rohan oh , we found diet apparently come from the same stock as the men of dale and the bjornings , rather than of gondor . Did that surprise you ?
Jessicaabsolutely , it did , it did . I highlighted it immediately . I'm like Beornings I know what those are and the Bardings of Dale I'm like holy smokes I know who these players are .
KritterYep , I had the same thing , where I knew that they were different or they came from somewhere else or whatever , but I had completely forgotten where and the fact that we're fresh off the hobbit , more or less , and it's like the hobbit people , people we've talked about in the hobbit , and that's who they are uh it makes me feel better , though , because I remember thinking that they seemed very tall without context in the movies , and now I understand because the earnings are tall .
JessicaYou know , born was very big and I assume his offspring also was .
KritterYeah , and they said the leaders of like Amor , like the first . One of the only descriptors that Legolas gave Before they showed up Is that he was tall and yeah , so they're just big dudes , which is fun .
JessicaSo I might be saying it wrong , because I've been saying Amor .
KritterOh Well , I say Amor , saying it wrong because I've been saying a amir . Oh um , well , I say aomer . I don't think it really matters deeply . Um , you can follow your heart . When it comes to pronunciations , I think we're pro whatever pronunciation you want on . But are there dragons ?
JessicaI am a big fan of carl urban as amir , so same put that out there to second your vibe yeah .
KritterYeah , he was my Lord of the Rings crush , Not gonna lie , rightly so . Okay , so the interaction with the Horselords started pretty tense until Aragorn pulled the I'm Legend card . Do you think the trio handled that whole exchange well ?
JessicaI'm curious to see . I had trouble picturing it , but I did love the fact that the narrator made a point of saying legless and gimley were taken aback to see aragorn behaving in that manner uh-huh um , but I kind of liked it . I was like , oh , he's feeling himself , okay , let's go with it . Yeah , and it's the first time he's actually given all of his names .
KritterIt was very like I am Daenerys , mother of Dragons , whatever , like Breaker of Chains , the whole sequence .
JessicaAnd this is .
KritterSteve , and I am Gimli . Just kidding Gimli , he's got a lot of stuff too .
JessicaYes , he does , gimli .
KritterJust kidding Gimli . He's got a lot of stuff too . Yes , he does . They were pretty mean about Gimli . I don't know , I have that later . So we talked about the 45 Leagues . In 4 Days they have a nice little gossip session with the men of Rohan after they decide they're not going to kill him . Did anything stand out to you from their chat , their catch up .
JessicaSo it did seem like the riders from Rohan were very dismissive of all the other races . First off , the fact that they were going to ride right by them until they all hopped up . You know , that jumped off the page to me too , that Aragorn basically had to call them out , otherwise they would have just kept running by them . Um , it did seem like they were , uh yeah , just really dismissive of other races . Uh and the uh , galadriel slander triggering gimli was pretty hilarious .
KritterYeah . So one of the writers protested him being lent a horse , which I was like , excuse me , like Legolas was fine but not Gimli . But then Legolas , bless his heart , solved the problem by letting Gimli ride behind him . So there was a note that Gimli was about as comfortable riding a horse as Sam was on a boat . That was a good throw . Gimli was about as comfortable riding a horse as sam was on a boat . That was a good throwback to the fellowship . Um , and then , yeah , gimli reminded the men of rohan eventually that they had some lessons to learn about galadriel so his being like super defensive about her was uh was kind of delightful .
JessicaSo any the the men , ride off Any thoughts about them before we continue so this piece in particular gave me a lot more insight into the current landscape in Rohan right now than I had from the movies , because I had no idea .
Rohan Political Landscape and Uruk-Hai Capture
JessicaI have some preconceived notions about what we'll expect when we meet the king and everything , obviously but , this section gave a lot of insight onto how things are today in rohan .
JessicaSo , for example , having strangers cross their borders . They have a very strong policy on that and , uh , you know , that's why it was noted by his men that you were lending these strangers horses and not immediately taking them to the king for permission to be present in our borders . Uh , so that I kind of feel like speaks volumes to the political landscape at play . Um , another thing that I had here so he winds up , amir winds up , sending the bulk of the riders away so that he could have a private conversation , um , with a little bit more , um , frankness , you know , have a little bit of a more real conversation . Uh , and I thought that that was good .
JessicaWe find out that gandalf's out of favor . We find out that it's a lie that they are providing horses to the dark army , which I immediately took note of , cause I was like , okay , so the horses is tribute is a lie . But isn't it funny that , even as a lie , it was just as effective as if it had been true , because it's still so descent in doubt . So that really , you know , stood out to me they were talking about , and again , the horse girl in me right , like I'm a retired horse girl .
JessicaThe story about how the part of a story , one side of a story , about how Shadowfax and Gandalf came to be in company together and that , whatever went down , the king is not happy about . Shadowfax seems to be a self-aware entity , so I assume that Shadowfax goes where Shadowfax chooses and so therefore wouldn't have gone with Gandalf just because Gandalf bid him so . So I thought that was funny . And then immediately after that they were talking about how the dark armies are coming over their borders and stealing black horses from mounts , and that just fired me up all over again . It just got me really mad . Biden words you don't steal horses , bro .
KritterI was so intrigued In New .
JessicaHampshire . You can still be hung for stealing horses oh , that's such a fun fact .
KritterThat is a really fun fact . Um , yeah , when I found out that the the horse thing was a lie or at least aomer thinks that the horse thing is a lie , of course , because I'm not gonna believe , you know , I don't believe anybody . I don't know who has the actual truth , maybe , maybe not , amor I found that fascinating Because , you know , whenever I heard that they were doing that , I was like , oh gasp , why would they do that , you know ? And so now , maybe they didn't . So that was good . You gave a couple of your favorite lines from Aragorn before I had written one down , so let me share it here . There are some things it is better to begin than refuse . Even though the end may be dark , we will not abandon our friends so long as hope remains . So I feel like aragorn's gone into full motivational speaker and philosopher mode in this episode generally , but like especially in this chapter , which I loved . I thought that was fabulous .
JessicaI don't know , big fan of him um yeah , there were some parallels drawn between gandalf and sauraman that were a little uncomfortable , um , and we know that that or I shouldn't say we I took that , you know , with a grain of salt that that could be coming from some poison seeds on the inside , um , so I didn't like that . And then there was another one I had to look up . It's called Dwimmer craft date . Okay , so I I had to look it up and Kendall didn't even know the answer . I had to Google it on a laptop . Okay , and wait , let me . Let me find it in context , please . I was like I can't even believe this . You can't make this stuff up .
KritterDwimmer crafty , dwimmer crafty , like dimmer , but with a W added I don't even remember hearing that word , but I look forward to finding out its definition .
JessicaOh , don't even tell me , I didn't highlight it . I know that I highlighted it . Of course I can't find it ultimately . Dwimmer crafty was used to describe saruman and I had to look it up and really what it means is that it is synonymous with illusion , arcane , magic disguises Okay , which is in the context clue of the sentence , but in the moment I was like I've never heard Dwimmer ever in my life heard Dwimmer ever in my life .
KritterThat's a new one , that's a brand new one for me , and it's not just a Tolkienism , it's like a word word .
JessicaI didn't keep going because it's always . I try to bail as fast as I can when it comes to the Google because I'm worried about the spoilers . Totally fair , I've Dwimmer , I'm just so I think that , like there's a loader wiki and there's an entry about it and I just read , like glazed over , what came up on the google search bar okay , yeah , so dwimmer is like dwimmer is a middle english variant of the old english word dwimor , which means illusion , so it's at least semi , not just from tolkien .
KritterYes , so yeah , fascinating whoa , oh my gosh , okay , let's see um . So they followed the trail or they want to go see . You know , ultimately , where the orcs met their end to see if their friends are there . And they end up camping at the on the edge of fangorn um . And that night an old man shows up on the edge of the firelight , right on the edge of the forest , but he vanished without a word , and unfortunately the horses bailed too . So what do you think this was all about ?
JessicaWell , I don't know , but I will tell you that they are camped out on the edge of yet another grumpy forest . Yeah , they've had another stranger danger sighting and they have yet again lost their mouths . So I mean , that's literally what I wrote and the horses are gone Again and that's how I ended my notes for that chapter . So I mean , honestly , my instinct is nothing good can come of it , because past experience If you had to guess who the old man was , who would you guess ?
JessicaSo the old man was in a wide-brimmed hat , which made me again , again , kind of second guess my assumptions . So when I think wide brimmed hat , I think gandalf . Um , and I was like I don't know that he's been described as having a hat at any point so far in either the fellowship or to this point so far in this book . He is not . So I was like again , am I assuming based on decades of imagery ?
Kritterhuh , but don't the um , am I making this up ? Don't one of them say , like I wouldn't expect saruman to have a hat like that .
JessicaYes , yeah , okay , they had talked about saruman being spotted , but he was a dark fig , dark hooded in a hood . Yeah , that's right aragorn clarifies he actually calls it out and says , yes , we spotted an old man , but he wasn't hooded he was wearing this hat yeah , but I got fixated on , you know , the wide-brimmed hat piece , and am I just assuming based on years and years of content ?
Kritteryeah , I was over here like , oh my gosh , it's gandalf . But then I was like why would he have freed the horses ?
Jessicaum , I don't understand but yeah , and so they talk about in the chapter that this forest is as old as the forest where , uh , tom and goldberry live . You know that . It's got all this history . So who's to say there isn't an entity associated with fangorn ? Just like there was , just like there was tom old .
KritterOld man Fangorn , yeah , maybe .
JessicaAnd he's grumpy too .
KritterYeah , well , fair , he has every right to be . Okay , so end of the chapter . Unless you've got more stuff , that's it for that chapter . Okay , last chapter for this episode , book three , chapter three , the Uruk-hai . A little intimidating , so back before the party got fully separated . Separated , we're leaping back in time . Mary and pippin ran willy-nilly straight into a group of orcs while looking for frodo . Mary managed to cut off some hands , but boromir ultimately fought off the first group that was trying to grab the hobbits before falling to the second . So how appropriate that mary and pippin got captured because they decided to do something silly I mean it's pretty appropriate .
JessicaUm , I will also say that the time the flashback piece of this chapter caught me off guard , I was like , oh , we're back and I still just like I had to do a chapter one .
JessicaGo crap , where were they when we left the fellowship ? Yeah , um . So I had to do a little bit of mental backpedaling there as well , but I did think that it was great that they noted that mary had fought valiantly . I do . I do think that it's very on brand that they did something foolish and landed in a pot of hot water , um . But then that's immediately followed by pippin having a bit of uh , negative self-reflection , saying I'm basically luggage , and now I'm luggage that orcs are carrying .
JessicaAnd I was like oh , buddy , that's a little harsh .
KritterWas this the moment that he was like ? I wish they wouldn't have .
Jessicalet me come along Like I wish all around would have literally stopped me . Yeah , I wish somebody had talked me out of this . Uh , yeah , have literally stopped me . Yeah , I wish somebody had talked me out of this . Uh yeah , so that was , that was rough , but again I feel like it's very on brand for the mary pippin duo I , I agree , but then so the two weren't all silliness ?
Kritteronce we catch up to them ahead of the trio , pippin ends up risking it all to leave a trail for any who might be following . But then , once again , he despairs , thinking well , they're probably just following Frodo , not him . Do you have any thoughts about the sequence ? Pippin risking it all ?
JessicaI think that it goes to show Pippin's resourcefulness honestly , like there's nothing . I think that it's eminently relatable to despair , but still just keep trying . Like I can relate , I think that if I were in a similar situation I would think the same thing , because at least some of us left going . That quest is the imminent quest .
JessicaLike that quest is the priority so I would also assume that Frodo is the priority over me , but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to try to keep coming up with ways to if there is someone trailing us , hopefully get us out of this mess . Help us get out of this mess .
KritterRight , yeah , I was proud of him , I was proud of Pippin . So we get a lot of orc talk in this chapter for the first time , I think , except for like the goblins , I guess , and the hobbit . So I just want to say that Andy Serkis nailed the audiobook version like different voices , so guttural and unpleasant but perfect . How was your experience reading the orcs ?
JessicaIt was challenging .
KritterReally .
JessicaSo they blended together a bit , kind of like when I read the trolls honestly uh-huh I will say , though , that going out of chapter two into chapter three , you start hearing that there's more than one kind of orc um , and so , trying to catch on , I did go back and reread some of the different things because , you know , trying to keep track , orcs and goblins aren't that different is my understanding . Also , one of the few things that I took away from my I'm not going to participate in the lord of the rings movie . Um fighting , that happened 20 plus years ago was that there's something about the way the uruk-hai are represented in the movie that they're that book fans don't appreciate , and I believe that it's because , like saruman , created them out of the ground or whatever , but I'm not sure .
JessicaOh , yeah so when I saw that we were meeting the uruk and that they have the , the white hand of saruman , like they are in fact a creature of saruman um , I took note of that because I wanted to see how they're different , um , possibly from the way that they're depicted in the movies , yeah , but you know , you have um , even in this chapter , they keep referring to the eisenarders , the Northerners , who are , you know , essentially the goblins that came out of the mines and stuff .
JessicaAnd then the other band which I now have forgotten the name of , but they come from like Lombors or something like that .
KritterYeah , yeah , it's like Sauron's Orcs and Saruman's Orcs , yeah , and they have different orders .
JessicaIt's like Sauron's orcs and Saruman's orcs , and
Technical Difficulties With Headphones
Jessicathey have different orders .
KritterIt sounds like I can't hear you . It might be on me One second . Will you try one more time ? Okay , we try one more time . One more time . I'm going to switch now the speaker . Okay , will you try again ?
Jessicawhat one more time .
KritterWhat One more time ? I can't hear you . I'm going to go get another headphones because somehow I am cursed . Give me a bit . Thank you . I plugged these in to see if maybe that would help . I'm not sure if I turned them on yet , so let me try again . Talk , please , god damn it . What the Um no-transcript Lawn to your butts . Changing , changing ? They're not showing up as an option yet output device .
KritterYou're not showing up as an output device . Airpods throw Bluetooth . Oh my god , I'm gonna lose my mind . Garrett seems to think that . Do I have the speaker set to the right thing in Riverside ? That's what I was checking . It's not even showing up the AirPods . So no , I got it here , appreciate it . I'm going to try and go back to the original ones , but they're plugged in , so maybe Okay . I'm not logged in , so maybe Okay . There's two versions of these black sharks , so I'm just going to try one . Will you try ?
Jessicatalking .
KritterLet me change . Make sure my output device is selected . It is .
JessicaCan I test this ?
KritterNo , why is this happening ? I feel like I have somewhere in my house just like stupid , like old iPad , ipod headphones , like that's . All I need is headphones that will plug in . I'm gonna try one more time . Try one more time . Okay , try to talk . No , alright , I'm gonna find those stupid . I'm gonna find some headphones . I'll be back , thank you , thank you , will you talk for me ? Okay , that doesn't make any sense . Let me pull up YouTube and , well , hold on , let me turn this on . I'm going to turn on YouTube to see if it'll play . Okay , it's working on YouTube . So what the fuck ? I can't hear you . But I appreciate you trying to talk . Try again . Nope , try again why it worked on YouTube . Um , let me open my volume mixer Headphones . Yes , um , shoot . Should we stop the recording and then I leave and I come back and then we finish the recording ? Okay , I'm sorry , look at how I look like an airline pilot or like a telemarketer . Okay ?
