Episode 2: The One with the White Rider & the Ents

We continue on with Kritter and Jessica as they read through The Two Towers, chapters 4 and 5. We learn about Ents, hear some theories, and meet an old friend. Again.

Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.

Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix

Transcript

Jessica: 0:06

Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, Kritter, and I'm your host Jess.

Kritter: 0:18

And we're continuing this adventure with the Two Towers by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.

Jessica: 0:25

And me as the Tolkien first-timer.

Kritter: 0:28

In this, our second episode of Season 3, we're going to discuss Book 3, Chapters 4 and 5. Before we dive in, Jessica, what's new with you? How are you feeling?

Jessica: 0:41

I am feeling good. It's really good to be back in hobbit land uh, excuse me, in tolkien land, um I misspoke, uh, but we do spend some time with the hobbits and that's why they were the uppermost on my mind. Um, on a personal note, got some really good news today closed on a brand new house, so you know all the things. Super, super excited, excited.

Kritter: 1:02

Really good day, Overall Excellent day. Lots of reading for the episode and then, you know, closing on a house casually, super casual no big yeah, nothing, big yeah, nothing. Big over here. Really, I think it's storming or about to, so we'll see what happens with this recording, but it'll be fine, it's going to be fine.

Kritter: 1:25

I'm not worried about it at all. I think it's going to be great, and this weekend, just you know, a fun little thing about me is my dad got my mom a massage for Christmas and she was going to, like, come up to my area to go to the spa and I was going to, just like you know, fall on the sword and join her, I guess. And so that's this weekend, so I'm going to have a spa day on Saturday.

Jessica: 1:47

Such a good daughter.

Kritter: 1:49

I know, I know I don't know what they would do without me. I'm just so I sacrifice so much for them. But anyways, looking forward to that, nice, yeah, okay. So shall we get started on the actual book? The reason we're here, yeah, okay. Oh, that thing. Yeah, yeah, that old thing, all right. So book three, chapter four tree beard. So in this chapter, Merry and Pippin stumble upon tree beard, aka Fangorn, the eldest of the ents, the shepherds of the trees. The ents have been around for a very, very long time and had never heard of hobbits. In fact, hobbits didn't have a place on their very long established list of living creatures. Did you find this interesting or surprising?

Jessica: 2:37

I did. I love the fact that they, in order to try and keep straight how many creatures they are, they decided to write a song about it. I thought that that was precious, um and I. There's so much to love about tree beard. His vibe, from the very beginning, is I am prepared to dislike you, but I'll try not to be hasty, which puts me in mind of a certain other creature. So you know, I, I, I really I loved everything about Treebeard and everything we learned about Ents here Absolutely surpassed what I got from the movies, which was fantastic and it was just very cool and very endearing.

Kritter: 3:20

Yeah, I really liked well. First of all, the list really reminded me of like. Did you have the growing up, maybe like a children's book or like flashcards that are like A is for antelope, b is for buffalo, c is for cheetah? Did you have like that? You know where it's like animals and letters. That's kind of I don't know why, but like whenever he was doing the little rhyme about all the creatures, it just reminded me of that. It's like there's no H's for hobbit. That's so sad. But then they ultimately decided to add the hobbits, which I think was great. Yes, yes, so that's good and in which the hobbits lived. Treebeard inquired about whether the hobbits had seen or heard of the Entwives who had been lost long ago. Did any part of this story because it was pretty long pique your interest?

Jessica: 4:16

Absolutely so I think that my big takeaway is that the story about the Entwives is pretty sad. I thought it was a really kind of a sad story. And then you know that the Entwives had different tastes and that they liked certain things and that it was ultimately a compliment to the Shire that he thought that the Entwives would enjoy it there.

Jessica: 4:39

But there was a highlight that I made there where he said a little literary umami, if you will, our hearts did not go on growing in the same way when he talks about the separation of the ents and the ent wives, and I just thought it was really sad. Um, you know, and he later in the chapter talks about how he wishes to actually see his uh one more time.

Kritter: 5:05

I'm not going to try to pronounce her name, it was terrible uh-huh, it was sad, it was really sad, um, and I gather that the entwives basically invented agriculture. Is that what?

Jessica: 5:18

like, is that?

Kritter: 5:18

that's what I got from it, that's what it sounded like to me, which is that was kind of cool.

Jessica: 5:23

Um, you know, I feel like the Entwives probably fostered the Shire you know. So after he explains why he thought they might like the place, I'm like. Oh, Hobbit cozy is totally their vibe. Are we sure there wasn't a founding Entwife?

Kritter: 5:41

Yeah, did they, like, invent it or something? Um, maybe, um, so, speaking of you know, maybe they invented the Shire. What do you think? Do you have any personal headcanons about what happened to the Entwives, because it's such a mystery at this point?

Jessica: 5:59

So I think, kind of like how Treebeard was implying that some Ents became more tree-like and essentially reverted to being essentially regular trees- that maybe something, some kind of entropy, took over for the entwives and maybe they became little apple orchards or cornfields or wild grain or you know like. Maybe they got so connected to a place that they also kind of stopped venturing out. Wow, okay so to me is head canon , for I don't want to think about anybody doing anything bad to ent wives, so I like my story better.

Kritter: 6:45

Right, because in the book itself they were like so this terrible thing happened I can't remember if they had a name for it, but it was just like the reckoning this devastating thing that happened to the land that the Entwives lived in, you know the.

Kritter: 6:58

Brownlands, yeah, the Brownlands, and during the war against Sauron, he just, he just obliterated it, yeah, and the question was was that their end or did they move on right? Because, uh, tree beard had heard tales that maybe they headed one way or the other way or the other way, um, and no one had known, and they had searched and searched and not found them. What, what?

Jessica: 7:24

What if Goldberry was an ent wife?

Kritter: 7:28

What if?

Jessica: 7:30

She was very connected to the land that they were in.

Kritter: 7:35

Sorry, no, I mean Goldberry is like. We always circle back to her like, ooh, what if this was her, her and Tom.

Jessica: 7:45

I really like the river sprite or river goddess, because it really seems to fit her narrative to a t? Um, but she's just so connected to the land that I was like maybe you know, we don't know maybe.

Kritter: 7:58

Um, I know one theory is that they like how sam mentioned in, I think, chapter one or one of the first chapters, that, uh, some his cousin or something had seen trees walking, remember? Yes, that is the. That's what I am latching on to as the. That's where they are. Like I want them to be near the shire. Um, I mean, I do too. That's like the only evidence I have in support of it, other than the fact that the Ents think that they would like the Shire also. But I would rather that than the sad ending.

Kritter: 8:34

But I also saw when I was Googling around somebody had the theory and I don't subscribe to this theory, but I think it's fun that the Entwives evolved, or devolvedolved, whatever you want probably evolved into hobbits. How do you feel about that theory?

Jessica: 8:55

I think that's too small for them. Honestly, I think that they're like abstract beings about. I look at tree beard and I think of appear to tree beard and I am like not to belittle my halfling friends because we know I love them, but they are beings with a capital b yeah, the hobbits are.

Kritter: 9:18

I also like I want to say it's pretty well established. The hobbits are like human, humanesque, right, and that's not the vibe that I get from the Ents right there. Not at all. They're pre-troll beings of the earth. Basically, I don't subscribe to that. It is a fun one though.

Kritter: 9:37

It's a fun little theory that I wouldn't have thought of myself for sure, although them cultivating the Shire, that is something I like, which kind of goes along with the thing that I like, which is that that's where they live now, or somewhere near there at least, because I don't want them to die.

Jessica: 9:51

I want, I want, a happy ending with that well in the shire, generally speaking, is just a safer place to be right like it's relatively untouched and pristine still, so it seems as safe a place as any agreed.

Kritter: 10:06

Um, okay, so we meet treebeard, we talk about the hobbits, we talk about the Ent wives. It's a long chapter, but eventually treebeard called an Ent moot ent moot, having noticed that Saruman was becoming a real problem. While it was ongoing, Merry and Pippin spent some time with another Ent, Bregalad, who explained to them that the orcs had been cutting trees down for no reason. The Entmoot concluded with the Ents deciding to march against Saruman to war. Now this went down very differently in the movies. If you remember, you might not Did you enjoy how it played out in the book.

Jessica: 10:43

I did. I thought that it was much more context.

Jessica: 10:52

So first off, that they met a different Ent in person and got a name, and that that Ent had you know, his homeland had been ravaged by the orcs and the progression of the Ent moot.

Jessica: 11:03

Also, I don't know that the movie necessarily had time for it, so it's really not shade against how peter jackson chose to do it, but there was a real progression because, as you mentioned, it was kind of a longer chapter. Um, there was a real progression from when we first encountered treebeard, uh, to his call to arms and talking about the treachery of a neighbor in regards to Saruman and how he used to come to the forest, but not anymore. And you know, there was a real progression through the course of the chapter which was actually kind of well, um, woven through. It wasn't overly, um, in your face, uh. So I thought that it kind of just flowed subtly in the background, kind of like Ent's speak, you know. So I thought that that was kind of neat because you know, when he first met them, you know he was just saying that there's something amiss and then he is essentially fomenting rebellion and calling his peers to arms to hold Saruman accountable for the actions of himself and his orcs. It's a pretty big transition.

Kritter: 12:16

It was, and I'm not going to lie, I'm going to be completely transparent and I want to say I admitted this like the first time I read the books I remember thinking the Tom Bombadil chapters were like dumb right. And this time around I did not feel that way at all. I was like fascinated by all of it. So this time around, I can't remember how I felt the first time whenever I read this, but I did find myself kind of like like looking at how much time was left in the chapter and I feel so bad about that, but like it did feel very long to me.

Kritter: 12:52

And part of me wonders if it's one because of Andy Serkis' performance, because he did the Ent thing, which is right, and I had it sped up to. I always have it sped up to 1.3 because I can't handle normal narrator speed. It's just too slow for me. Even at 1.3 it was like really slow. So I wonder if that had something to do with it. I didn't speed it up any further than 1.3 and I also wonder if that was a deliberate move on Tolkien's part to kind of put us in the Ent mindset right. Yeah, we're not gonna rush through this chapter, we're not gonna be hasty, I'm gonna take you on the journey that treebeard went on to go from there's something a little off to we're declaring open war as the first group of people to declare open war so far in this series, right.

Jessica: 13:47

Like yeah, and that's definitely significant. It is. Yeah, it's really Nature itself. Nature itself is declaring war on Saruman.

Kritter: 13:56

Yes, and because of his cruelty, because it, like what he's doing, is a direct attack on life and you know, the earth or the middle earth and uh, and so, even though I did feel like it was long in the moment, the chapter after the chapter, I was like dang, like that was really good, like you got a lot out of that one, and so I will say I also was like dang, how much biscuit, how much longer is this chapter?

Jessica: 14:23

so so I you know, as you know, we make our outline and I'm like, oh cool, it's a breezy. Two chapters, no problem, I'll get through it. And by the time we're getting introduced to the second and quick beam. I'm like oh, we're still going.

Kritter: 14:40

Oh, the answer Okay.

Jessica: 14:44

Continues.

Kritter: 14:45

oh, the answer still continues so I wasn't necessarily anxious for it to get over, but it was a thick chapter compared to what I was expecting, because I was like oh, we meet tree beard and I think I was just kind of a little dismissive of that and, yeah, I feel like the chapter showed me otherwise I do feel like the writing that, since the parties have broken up and we still haven't met frodo and sam yet, this, this book or whatever, um, the, it's interesting how we kind of leap ahead in like pretty big strides, right, it's like, okay, you know, we're starting with meeting treebeard at the beginning of this chapter and by the end of the chapter they're at the steps of Isengard, like you know, like that's, that's a big, like change. You know, we're not messing around, we're, whenever we get to a Marion Pippin POV, by golly, we're going to make some strides, is this?

Kritter: 15:42

what he's doing. So it's, uh, it's. It's been interesting for sure, Um the pacing and everything having to follow multiple POVs. Finally, because, like in the Hobbit.

Jessica: 15:52

That was one of the things that that was one of the things that jumped out to me when we switched gears to chapter five was oh so there are two.

Kritter: 15:59

There's still two full days behind them, so to your point, the kind of the leapfrogging of the timeline seeing where we're at, uh, with the with the separate parties is very interesting yeah, because in some books like I want to like the wheel of time, for example no spoilers at all, but it's like if there's something happening, you will get, like you know, one character that's experiencing it and then, like, immediately following, that will be the next character who's like picking up right where that left off in time. Essentially that happens a lot, and so it's just like you're literally like you know, everything is happening in rapid succession within the confines of a chapter too, like you switch POVs mid chapter. This is very much like block. This is Merry and Pippin's time. We're gonna.

Jessica: 16:46

We're gonna make progress I do feel like they're bigger blocks, so far.

Kritter: 16:51

Yeah, big chunks, like I'm. When I was looking at the chapter titles when we were working on like our overall what we're gonna read outline, I was just like, oh my gosh, like some of these chapters are like that's just a chapter, like that one thing like I would think some that title would be multiple chapters, but no, it's just one.

Jessica: 17:10

So, yeah, that's the fun part, folks, of letting the first time readers set a preliminary outline and then the vet will review it and go hey, wait a minute. Based on some things I'm not going to clarify for you, I would like to revise that outline.

Kritter: 17:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think today in a DM I was like this is a big boy read so we shortened it. So anyways, we're getting a little far afield. But you did mention that nature itself is rising up against Saruman, which I think I also clocked, the symbolism of it all, and I remember in the Hobbit and maybe even in Fellowship of the Ring, we noted that Tolkien has I know he doesn't like allegory, but he's got a clear environmentalist tilt Slant, slant, yeah, okay, so it's not just well. Well, I know it's not just me, because you talked about it before. I think it reared its head again here.

Jessica: 18:12

So there were a couple. I have the receipts, would you like?

Kritter: 18:14

to hear that I would love the receipts okay.

Jessica: 18:17

So first off is uh, you know, when treebeard and Merry and Pippin are talking before they even get to treebeard's house which, by the way, treebeard's house is a thing I would have liked to have seen Somebody please create a Treebeard's house for me, please, and thank you. But anyways, they were chatting and Treebeard gets asked if he knows of Gandalf and he said, yes, he's the only wizard that really cares about trees, and I thought that that was, again precious. And then he was talking about the treachery of the neighbor. He was talking about the orcs that Saruman had created and how he felt that they were tainted.

Jessica: 19:07

I can't use tainted in this context. They were, you know, an evil blend, potentially, of men and orc, because they were able to withstand the sunlight, and so it is a mark of evil things that they cannot abide the sun, but Saruman's orcs can, and so he hypothesizes that perhaps there's the blood of men in them, you know, and he just talks over and over about that. And again, the treachery of a neighbor. So I it's not literary, umami, right, but it's just a simplistic way to, to, to succinctly put it, and I thought that it was brilliant.

Jessica: 19:46

And then the other thing is talking about trolls. Being a mockeryorn slash Treebeard as a representative of nature, saying this cannot stand and we must fight.

Kritter: 20:12

This is unnatural and evil and therefore we have to rise against, rise against. Um, I love whenever Tolkien's like attitudes obviously align with mine. Who doesn't love that? But also that like, even though he didn't like allegory or whatever, it still comes through. Sometimes I'm like, yes, I love this about this. This is great. Um, oh, also, so there was something the the difference in this from the movie that I really really liked was the ents came to their own conclusion that they were going to go to war against Saruman after the like at the Ent moot because in the movie, if you'll recall, they the hobbits like tricked them into going close enough to Isengard so that they would see the destruction.

Kritter: 21:01

And I'm and you know, Ents are incredibly old. You know presumably wise beings like you don't need little hobbits to to show you the way right, and you've been living in this forest so it makes sense that you would know what's happening with it. Um, so I think, yeah, when it comes to like which one do I like better this one. I think it makes more sense and it was a fun thing in the movie where it's like oh, the closer you are to danger, the farther you are from harm. Of course I like the hobbits being like hobbity, but at the same time, it didn't make as much sense as the ants coming to their own conclusion, in my opinion.

Jessica: 21:36

I definitely like the autonomy play of them. You know, having the wherewithal to say this is not right and we must put an end to it. I I also believe that. Um, I did like that.

Jessica: 21:48

I did find what I believe is a movie quote, um, in there that says we do not say anything in it unless it is worth taking a long time to say and I highlighted it because I was like I'm pretty sure this made it in there in some way- it did, except for it sounded more like a long time to say. I cannot talk on .65.

Kritter: 22:18

Yeah, it's tough, but I loved it. I really like the Ent parts in the movie because it's tough, but that's I loved. I really like the Ent parts in the movie because it's just like really Well, to use your word, precious right Because he's just so lovable, even though the Hobbits are like, oh my gosh, let's go, let's move on. Let's pick up the pace a little bit, but he just doesn't. He just doesn't pick up the pace until the time comes, and then they're gonna take on Saruman until he gets heated.

Jessica: 22:45

Until he gets heated, he's heated. Oh baby going back yeah, so everyone's.

Kritter: 22:52

The ents are on the march, right, they go to war singing songs, etc. Um, but then eventually, you know, as the as their pace continuesbeard acknowledges that, with Saruman as an opponent, the Ents may very well be marching to their death, but he resolves to march on anyway, noting that doing so may help the other creatures in Middle-earth and acknowledging that Doom would find them anyway if they chose to stay home. Would you call this bleak or realistic?

Jessica: 23:25

I'm going to go with the pragmatic play, which I actually love to see from a cast, a set of characters in a story that could be quite removed and have quite kind of a skewed perspective. Yeah, so I thought that that was relatively insightful, so I that didn't bother me at all. I was like, okay, so he is with it. Enough. I feel like I'm questioning the sanity of an entity and that's not what I'm trying to say, but like he's pretty dang old.

Jessica: 23:57

He's been around a really long time, but he has you know, put all of the context clues together and has a really good sense of what's really going down.

Kritter: 24:08

Yeah, I feel like it's relatable, right? Because you know, in real life sometimes if I'm angry or whatever, I'll get so worked up about something and like put a plan into action something, and like put a plan into an action, maybe I send an email or, like you know, do something out of anger, say something, send a text message, whatever out of anger, and then once that happens, it's you like take a breath and you're just like this may not turn out the way that I wanted it to, you know, and and it's just interesting how obviously his thing was on a much larger scale than something like that, but it's just completely relatable in my opinion. You can't just ride the heat and the intensity and the excitement and the adrenaline all through something Almost without fail. You're going to stop and pause and be like oh God, okay, I guess we're doing this. So I liked that. I like that about it, great, okay.

Kritter: 25:05

So, uh, as I said, it's a long chapter. I tried to pull the highlights out. Was there anything else for this chapter before we move on? Did you, did you like the chapter?

Jessica: 25:14

I think we kind of talked about that yes, I did like the chapter, so I think that this is fun for me when I find little nuggets. They're not, they're not. They don't change them either. You know what I mean? They don't change which way the ship is heading in any way whatsoever. I clearly already like the story, but these are little treasure troves of information that I had no way of knowing. And, again, they don't change the bulk and breadth of the story, which is why adaptation probably chose to leave it behind.

Jessica: 25:45

But it's extra context that, to me, makes the fabric of these stories richer and makes me excited to go back and re-watch and, with you know, just this little bit more umph yeah, I agree.

Jessica: 26:00

Yeah, it'll be fun going back and watching again um, I did have one other thing from this chapter. While um treebeard was talking about Saruman, he did say he is plotting to become a power capitalized. Um, so I just thought that again that just stood out to me that even somebody from afar who's not having direct interactions with him can see what he is up to and where he's trying to go. And it seemed very significant to me that it was capitalized.

Kritter: 26:38

A power. Yeah, it would make you wonder what all in middle earth would be classified as a power with a capital p. You know, yeah, because if saruman wasn't yet as the head of the white council, what is what? What does you know?

Jessica: 26:53

saran, presumably he's still trying to elevate from there and dear god. What does that mean?

Kritter: 26:58

what does that mean exactly? That's that mean Exactly? That's a good point, okay, so there being no further business about chapter four, let's move to book three, chapter five the white writer. So we're back with Aragorn, legolas and Gimli. They examined the scene from the battle between the orcs and the writers of Rohan and are encouraged to find some tracks and the leftovers from the hobbits lembas snack. So I loved how both Legolas and Aragorn agreed that the fact that they ate first thing before even fleeing to safety was pretty clear proof that these were hobbits they were dealing with anything stand out to you from the sequence um, just that, I love them.

Jessica: 27:40

And they were looking for footprints from the mystery man that they spotted the night before, and I love them. And they were looking for footprints from the mystery man that they spotted the night before and I was like, and this is why these guys are the hunters, trackers and professionals, cause it wouldn't even occur to me to be looking for footprints for the suspicious man. So, um, I I did love that they were looking for it. I did love the little kind of throwaway comment about the Lembas bread, and then there was a little bit of a quip in there about trying hard to find them, because this is the part where it says you know, they found markings, but it's still two days old and I think Gimli is grousing and so, um, they're talking about supplies running low and we can show our friendship by starving together.

Kritter: 28:30

So I was like okay things are getting a little tense a little.

Kritter: 28:34

It kind of reminds me of the hobbits in uh in murkwood. A little bit right, because they're all just like they get so grumbly and annoyed with each other. Okay, so I'm not. So I'm not gonna lie. Whenever I was reading the sequence, you know they're inspecting the battle scene, all that stuff. Usually when I'm watching the movies I have the anecdote, the everyone knows the anecdote. Where did you know that? You know Viggo Mortensen broke his toe whenever he kicked the helmet out of anger. Oh my God, so exciting. I didn't have anything like that from the sequence, so I just wanted to flag it that had we been watching the movie I would have had a fun fact ready. But I don't for this.

Jessica: 29:11

So did you know that our friend and former guest, don Marshall, made merch about that very typical anecdote moment? That seems to be very quintessential Lord of the Rings experience.

Kritter: 29:26

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, he's got some really good merch, yeah. So I totally believe it. I completely believe it. So they track the hobbits into Fangorn Forest and eventually find where the hobbits encountered Treebeard, though they have no idea what to make of Treebeard's tracks, that's when they see the creepy old man, or a creepy old man once again. Okay, so what was your immediate reaction? Did you know who this was, or at least strongly suspect?

Jessica: 29:58

I really, really hoped that it was Gandalf. I really really hoped that it was Gandalf. So there was a comment made earlier by Legolas saying that he heard the horses calling out as if to a friend, and so I had highlighted it and added a note and just Shadowfax calling it now Uh-huh, yeah. So I'm like I really hope, and I honestly have never heard the term the white rider, so I nothing to the name of this chapter. It totally just blew right over my head.

Jessica: 30:29

Um so I didn't think anything of it. Um and so when the when an old man appeared again, I'm like, please be Gandalf, please be Gandalf, please be Gandalf. And you know they, Tolkien did a good job making you wait until the very end to be like, okay, no, legit it is, it's Gandalf.

Kritter: 30:48

Yeah, but we did find out that it wasn't Gandalf the night before.

Jessica: 30:54

No, and that gave me goosebumps, that made all the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I did not like it.

Kritter: 31:00

No, ma'am I had forgotten. I like when I saw him I was like, oh, it's Gandalf, like hello, like you know, he's gonna show up, it's gonna be amazing, completely forgot. No, that wasn't Gandalf, that was Saruman. We should have been freaked out and instead I was like easy breezy, not a problem. Um, creepy a little creepy.

Jessica: 31:19

yeah, I thought it was super creepy, but we did find out that that's why we saw a giant eagle. So that was, you know, kind of justifying that that's why we saw a Gwaihir.

Kritter: 31:29

Mm-hmm.

Jessica: 31:32

And the other. Sorry, go ahead.

Kritter: 31:35

I was just going to say you mentioned, like we did find out ultimately that it was Gandalf, so I put his reveal. It was so dramatic so they try to attack him, but he commands them not to and, as if by magic, they don't like. Ghibli freezes, Legolas drops his bow and is like surprised by it. They ask his name. Of course he does not answer. They see his white garments and accuse him of being Saruman and in the most flamboyant in my mind, in my mind's eye, way possible leap and flourish, finally reveals himself to be Gandalf. So how do you feel about all that?

Jessica: 32:10

So I do feel like there might have been like a little bit of a glamour happening or whatever, because even Aragorn, you know, afterwards says my eyes, you know how could I not see you? Afterwards says my eyes, you know how could I not see you?

Jessica: 32:26

Uh, so I do feel like there's a little bit of mysticism around that reveal for sure, um, but yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was good. I think that I feel like the movie version did it justice. You know it was, it was enough. Did it justice? You know, yeah, it was, it was enough. Um, I think that what I liked about it the most is the. Even in the writing it's clear that he's he's Gandalf and yet not 100% Gandalf. You know he's a little, it's a little rusty or there's spots, or you know he's like, oh, Gandalf, that sounds familiar sure, yeah, that's totally right.

Kritter: 33:04

Um, okay, so I feel like I cut you off earlier. Were you gonna say something that you didn't just say?

Jessica: 33:11

uh, that he still talks in riddles, but at least this time aragorn called him out on it yeah, yeah, he's like man, just give it to me plain, like what?

Kritter: 33:23

Yeah, and then of course, his excuses. Oh, I was actually just talking to myself, like okay, Gandalf, whatever much he thought he knew and learn much that he'd forgotten that he can see many things far off but cannot see many things close at hand. What do you make of this?

Jessica: 33:50

I make of this a mystical version of coming back from the dead, where you have literally passed through to a new life and you are more tuned into the big picture than you are to your immediate past, right so, first off. I loved the story of him and the balrog in like locked in dread battle and they wind up going underwater and he turns into like a slimy snake or yeah, whatever it winds up being. And then he still ascends back all the way up through the mines of Moria through the endless stair.

Jessica: 34:28

I think it's called like the whole resurrection story was incredibly moving, like very gripping, and did a great job, so I I kind of liked that actually Peter Jackson did that when Saruman took possession. This is the movies when Saruman took possession, held rather Gandalf hostage up on the Heights and he gets rescued from there.

Jessica: 34:59

And all he's he does it as the briefest of flashbacks and he's like I was delayed and so I kind of did that. In my mind is that he was trying to tell them. You know it was a fight and I don't really want to get into it, but in his mind he was having a flashback to this ridiculous, you know, epic cage match that he was having with this force of nature essentially. So I thought that that was very cool and was just additional context. I totally lost my oh. So, going back to, I think that he got really close to the source whatever you consider the source to be and so again, he was kind of tuned into some master plans and, and it's just kind of, his perspective has just shifted enough that now he's more focused on the big picture and a little less focused on just the role that the hobbits and the ring play yeah, yeah, I love that.

Kritter: 36:04

It says he was sent back naked for a brief time until his task was done. So it's so obviously. Well, obviously, it was to me. It's like so obviously. Whoever his creator is, or whatever, the b, the higher power with the capital p, presumably, uh, it sent him back like deliberately. So I thought that was really cool.

Kritter: 36:29

I thought it was interesting to find out that the reason the shadow passed without Frodo and the ring being revealed to Sauron, I, we, I assume, while Frodo was sitting up at the high seat, like, like on the top of the mountain, was because Gandalf was striving against Sauron, like from a distance. You remember, whenever it's like the thing is coming at Frodo and we, like, I guess, assumed Frodo decided that he wasn't going to let Sauron see him. It's like either no, or because Gandalf said he had to. Really, if, like, if Frodo had made the other decision, Gandalf wouldn't have been able to prevent it. Right, it was like a combo wobble of like Gandalf trying to protect and Frodo making the right call, but either I love to get that behind the scenes info like the no, I love it.

Jessica: 37:18

So that was my second big bullet was the resurrection story. Additional context was awesome. And the additional insight into Saruman, so things like that. You know when he is gripped in this epic mental power battle, but also why isn't Saruman looking for him and why hasn't Sauron found them yet? And all of that behind the scenes stuff, and also bringing up the fact that Saruman is likely in a place where he's looking to double cross Sauron.

Jessica: 37:54

So setting all of that up, all of that context again. So this part of this chapter was hard for me, cause I'm like, was this all super obvious? And I am just an idiot. It did not get that from the movie, but it genuinely never occurred to me that Saruman would be making a play for the ring for himself. Never occurred to me. And then I'm reading through this and I'm like, well, clearly that all makes perfect sense.

Kritter: 38:23

Yeah, that makes it. I definitely don't think they emphasized it in the movies. Um, okay, you know they had the Uruk-hai, Saruman's creations, but it did make it seem like, if I'm remembering right like Saruman at all times felt very much like a, like an agent of Sauron right, he's got the Palantir.

Kritter: 38:41

Well, I don't want to talk too much about the Deeths from later, even though you've seen them, but yeah, in the movies I think it was very much more like he's kind of acting on behalf of Sauron, not against him, because, yeah, like that that.

Jessica: 38:56

Gandalf has a lot of insight. There's just some real nuance.

Kritter: 39:02

There's a lot of nuance there, and how he went through it just systematically was like, of course his gaze was drawn to Minas Tirith and this, that and the other thing, and I'm reading it through going yeah, no, that totally tracks, but I feel like I didn't watch this movie I don't think I don't think we watched the same movie, you guys yeah, yeah, it was cool though because, like Gandalf, also points out that um, along with Saruman, kind of going towards his own gain, if he can, Sauron's ultimate strategy right, which is, like Sauron is constantly wondering where the ring is and how it's going to be used against him, not ever whether it's going to be used against him, right. He's never considering that someone would want to destroy the ring rather than wield it, because he can't relate to that.

Jessica: 39:50

He can't imagine a world in which he would not want that tool.

Kritter: 39:54

Right, which is so fascinating, and that is why he's extending his reach away from Mordor, which is exactly what the hobbits need to get in there, sneak on in there. So, yeah, the fact that Gandalf has all of this inside information, presumably partially because he's getting reports from Gwaihir the Windlord, but also because he's got this higher level view of everything now that he's been beyond and come back.

Jessica: 40:25

Elevated in some way.

Kritter: 40:26

Very helpful for the good guys for sure, yeah, okay, so he also talks about because all of his insights he's got insight into where the hobbits are right. He didn't know that Sam went with Frodo. When he found that out, he was was really happy, which made me really happy. Yes, but he knew about Merry and Pippin and I flagged a little literary umami for this. Their coming was like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche in the mountains. Even as we talk here, I hear the first rumblings. It's just like I know it's not like the most flowery language, but I am a sucker for like a simile or like a metaphor. You know what I mean. Like the falling of small stones that starts an avalanche was just like yeah, that's exactly what happened.

Jessica: 41:12

They show up and I think, and it's so penal, it's so like vintage Hobbit right. Like vintage hobbit right. It's very small actions of good people that changed the world, and and so just another way to represent that. I think that it's beautiful.

Kritter: 41:29

It was really lovely. Um, and a perfect way to phrase it, so okay, so this also got my attention. Gandalf says that tree beard is the oldest living thing that walks beneath the sun on Middle Earth. Did you immediately think what I thought when I read this?

Jessica: 41:50

I thought are you sure it's not, tom yeah?

Kritter: 41:53

that's exactly. I was like I'm sorry Tom's name by some people is eldest. How does that?

Jessica: 42:02

not make it the oldest. Maybe Tom doesn't count because he died and came back.

Kritter: 42:08

Yeah yeah. My thought was Tom doesn't count because he's like an otherworldly godlike, being not a living thing.

Jessica: 42:20

that's what I thought oh my god is tom Hoid no, cosmere spoilers, but no spoilers. But like we want to talk about you know, I never even considered that we could do crazy loony theories on tom as a world hopper, and where could we take that?

Kritter: 42:39

yeah, he's. Maybe he is fun fact. Yeah, uh, lord of the rings is part of the cosmere who knew um, oh my god that was.

Jessica: 42:48

That was my explanation, was I guess tom isn't a living thing, he's something else I mean that's a thin thread, but I'll give it to you because he did pass and then return yeah, did he I feel like, yes, now I have to go back and check well now I'm like, wasn't that our head canon for? Because I was like are they Beren and Luthien?

Kritter: 43:13

Yeah, so like if he's not Beren and Luthien, there wasn't another instance where he passed.

Jessica: 43:20

Right no.

Kritter: 43:21

Okay, right, so no Right.

Jessica: 43:25

I was like, if we're saying that Tom. Yeah, I'm saying, if Tom is, you know somebody who passed and came back, does that make them Beren and Luthien reincarnated?

Kritter: 43:37

I see, I see, okay. Well, that would be another explanation if we subscribe to that head. Um, okay, so Aragorn reappoints Gandalf as their leader. You know, to the extent he had the authority to do that. Um, noting, the dark lord has nine. But we have one mightier than they the White Rider. He has passed through the fire and the abyss and they shall fear him. We will go where he leads. So I don't know about you. There's something about a man who has every right to assume that he's in charge, who is ready and willing to follow and support someone more qualified, like regardless of pedigree, like do you, do you agree?

Kritter: 44:17

yeah, a thousand percent, like ugh Aragorn and also Aragorn, just delivering in spades on some great language, chapter after chapter yeah, he's like, he's really, um, he's evolved, like from when we first met him as Strider right. He's evolved from when we first met him as Strider right. He just keeps getting I don't know more attractive and more noble. Yeah, and it's good for him.

Jessica: 44:44

I did like that Gandalf counseled Aragorn and basically told him don't keep beating yourself up over these decisions. You did the best you had with the information you had available to you at the time. So I did like that Gandalf uh you know tried to give him that uh relief yeah, he's a good.

Kritter: 45:05

He's a good guy, he's a good. Gandalf's a good dude. Yeah, who knew um. So we talked about the fight, right, Legolas wanted Gandalf to recount what all happened to him and it was a doozy, and he like I have to read this he threw down his enemy and he fell from the high place and broke the mountainside where he smote it in his ruin. And then we talked about how darkness took him. He got sent back, whatever. As he's laying there just like letting time and space pass him by, Gwaihir, the Windlord, shows up and takes him to Lothlorien, because Galadriel was actually the one who sent Gwaihir for him, which harkens back to the Fellowship, where they're like he's dead, like sorry to hear that he's dead. She totally didn't believe it at any moment. And so, yeah, all of that the Lothlorien thing, how did you feel about that?

Jessica: 46:05

I did remember our moment in the fellowship where she refused to use the word dead. But also, how does she know, maybe she's just power with a capital p. She is a power. As far as I'm concerned, she's a power, um. So I thought that that was, and I did like the fact that Gwaihir got a little cheeky. He was like you know, take me to Lothlorien at once and Gwai hir is like on it. Bro, I already got my orders, thank you.

Kritter: 46:35

To the extent I follow orders like. I follow the orders I want to follow and and the orders I got were from Galadriel. Thank you.

Jessica: 46:41

Yeah, so I thought that that was a funny little again.

Kritter: 46:45

Just little cheeky moments they get they're fun Little bits of sass and then that they each had a message from Galadriel, although they were not necessarily fun messages, yeah, I wrote, so I've got them kind of like summarized to Aragorn about the return of the Dunedain, noting that the dead watch the road that leads to the sea, to Legolas to avoid the sea, and to Gimli, naming him Lockbearer. She said her thoughts with him, but that he should have a care to lay his axe to the right tree. So now try to put yourself in the shoes of someone who has not seen the movies. I know it's hard because you have to the extent you can. What would you have made of all of this had you not seen the movies?

Jessica: 47:31

I would avoid coastline yeah, yeah, it all sounds kind of bleak yeah, like I think we should avoid anything that starts or sounds like sea absolutely, and with Gimli I'm like okay, so it's what she is.

Kritter: 47:47

Like it's like the wrong tree is he? Is he already know that, though, because they're in Fangorn I don't know, like was know.

Jessica: 47:54

How do you know which tree is the right tree?

Kritter: 47:57

Yeah. Yeah, it was a little cryptic, but that's par for the course. I guess with the Galadriel and all the powers that we know of, it can be pretty cryptic. Okay, so the group of four resolve to head to Rohan, and Gandalf summons Shadowfax. So you're the horse girl in this equation. Did his description do anything for you?

Jessica: 48:21

Absolutely. Did you ever, you know, do a stint with the romance covers that had, you know, like long flowing Fabio hair my mother-in-law and usually they weren't shirts, um, so I feel like that was the Fabio version of an intro Shadowfax, like it was majestic as can be, um, and I thought that it was lovely. Uh, I, I already love the king of horses, obviously um so yeah, and he brought, you know, their mounts back with them, which of course was very validating for me that I was 100 correct.

Kritter: 49:09

So true Shadowfax, calling it now you did it, you called it um. So as the group travels they notice smoke in the direction of Isengard. I assume I had to reread the passages to make sure there was smoke, I think in the direction of Isengard yeah, I think so too, so at least that's how I took it that's how I took it. Uh, so Legolas asks what it is and Gandalf responds battle and war.

Jessica: 49:36

And that is the end of the chapter. And I just wrote that I thought that was an epic ending, I thought that that was a great. You know, sometimes, sometimes there are really strong sign offs. I think this was right up there with you know, here lies Balin. You know, like it was just a really strong, I know. All right, you were the bestest um I just thought that it was a really great chapter end yeah, I agree.

Kritter: 50:06

Um, all right, so we've got a tradition where we pick an mvp from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music, Jessica. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?

Jessica: 50:23

I have to go with Treebeard. He is just 110% awesome. He is legend. He is so old and so wise and he empowers all of his remaining people to, you know, puts out this call to arms to them to fight the evil that lives next door. I cannot, I couldn't, give it to anybody but Treebeard this time.

Kritter: 50:52

Yeah, I, um. So I will say that I considered Gandalf for this. I couldn't give it to anybody but Treebeard this time. Yeah, so I will say that I considered Gandalf for this because the story was so epic. But I rationalized by he was actually just telling us about things that have happened in the past and he already won MVP for me for his fight with the the Balrog back in the fellowship. I, you know, I didn't get full the full deets, but I gave him his props. Um, so I completely agree. Like, whenever I thought about these two chapters, I didn't even I mean, like Gandalf was, like he's an honorable mention, but treebeard is, hands down, the winner. Like he, he saw what was happening, he called the Ent Moot, he educated Merry and Pippin on the situation and he orchestrated the Ent's march to war and, as we mentioned, like he, as far as we know, is the first being to declare open war in this conflict.

Jessica: 51:48

Which just makes it all the more the correct choice, you know.

Kritter: 51:52

Yeah, exactly Like, if he, this deliberate thinker, is going to do it, then it's obviously the correct choice. Yeah, exactly, if he, this deliberate thinker, is going to do it, then it's obviously the right move. And it was just epic, the decision that was made. You felt the swelling of the power within the forest coming down towards Isengard, so it's tribute for me as well. Look at us. Last week we had the same one.

Kritter: 52:13

Twinning, we're twinning. If you are listening and you want to weigh in on who your MVP is from this episode, I think there are a couple that are fully justifiable in this instance, then let us know in the comments on YouTube or if you're on our Discord or on our social media. We're really curious to see if you agree with us, because even though we're twinning, it doesn't mean that we're right. Just right, we. I'd like to think it does, but it doesn't technically. Um, okay, so that's it, I guess. Uh, next week for next episode, we will be reading chapters six and seven. It's a little bit of a shorter read, um, which you know what after the after the tree beard chapter, I think we've earned. It's okay.

Kritter: 53:00

So thank you so much for tuning into episode two of season three of. But are there dragons brought to you by your hosts, Jessica Sedai and me, Kritter xd? Don't forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok and ButDragonsPod just one T on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as KritterXD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We're workshopping new catchphrases for Season 3, so let us know on social media how you feel about this. One Few can foresee whether their road will lead them till they come to a let's end. And this is our end until next week bye.