But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 3: The One with King Theoden & the Battle of Helm's Deep
Kritter and Jessica continue their journey through Two Towers book 3 chapters 6 and 7. They make it to Rohan, meet King Theoden, and finally face the foe with him at Helm's Deep.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Kritter and Jessica continue their journey through Two Towers book 3 chapters 6 and 7. They make it to Rohan, meet King Theoden, and finally face the foe with him at Helm's Deep.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host, jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Two Towers by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran and me as a first timer In this, our third episode of season three. We're going to discuss book three, chapters six through seven, before we dive in. Jessica, what's new with you? How are you feeling?
Speaker 2:I'm good, life is good, just busy getting ready for summer and all that that entails. How about you just busy getting ready for summer?
Speaker 1:and all that that entails. How about you, same same, still having construction going on my house a little bit Upstairs guest bath is becoming a laundry room also, which is going to be so convenient, and that's like almost done.
Speaker 1:But I've been waking up very early to let my construction people in a lot lately. So I will not be sad when I can sleep in consistently, because I am a. I'm usually, if I have my way, I go to bed late and I wake up late. Yeah, but it's fine, we're fine, everything's fine, yeah, anyways. So let's get into this book, shall we? Let's do it, okay. So book three, chapter six, the King of the Golden Hall. So, especially given the chapter title, I wanted to start this episode by acknowledging the amazing life lived by Bernard Hill, who played Theoden, the king of the Golden Hall in Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings trilogy. He passed away the same week we were reading this chapter, at the age of 79. He was beloved among Tolkien fans for his incredible portrayal of King Theoden, and Billy Boyd said it perfectly I don't think anyone spoke Tolkien's words as great as Bernard did. He would break my heart.
Speaker 2:And I just wanted to say that he will be sorely missed. I would just say the same. I mean I can't think of another more iconic role and the gravitas he brought to that role. It's unparalleled and it's a loss. And just the timing was so ironic and definitely he was on my mind as I was going through this read Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so definitely was thinking of him this whole sequence during this read. Such weird timing. But may he rest in peace. So, as far as the chapter goes, the party approaches edoras king theoden's court and passes the barrows where king theoden's sires were buried 16 of them. Did you notice that there were seven on one side and nine on the other? That kind of gave me goosebumps, because he died at the age of 79.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't, but now that just made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. That's a little.
Speaker 1:Isn't that? Yeah, anyways, I thought that was wild. So 16 of them resting beneath the bright eyes in the grass was wild. So 16 of them resting beneath the bright eyes in the grass. The ever mind, the symbol, mine or symbol mean I'm not exactly sure how to pronounce that uh, flowers that bloom year-round where dead men rest. Did anything stand out to you from the party's trek to ederas?
Speaker 2:uh, just that. Again, it was so. Uh, the plains of roan definitely appealed to me. Again, I think it's the horse girl stuff and I try not, you know, I'm sure people are tired of hearing about that, but just the way that it's described, the entry, and then also keeping in mind that their encounter with Eamir made it very clear that Rohan has like a very strict borders closed policy and they're essentially trying to make it into the king's presence undetected, virtually, so it added a little element of suspense there for sure.
Speaker 1:For sure. So yeah, the party gets to the gates and, as you kind of alluded to, they're met with some real hostility. Eventually they're let in, but they are forced to give up their weapons. Aragorn takes some real umbrage against giving up Andoril, but does it anyway, and Gandalf objects to giving up his staff and is supported by Aragorn, who helps him play the old man card, which actually works. Any thoughts from this sequence?
Speaker 2:works. Any thoughts from this sequence? So I well, first off, as they were going up, I had written down that gandalf had a a line where he said draw no weapons, speak no haughty word, trying to tell them all like be cool, we're on a fast one here, um, so I thought that that was pretty funny. Uh, that he was trying to set them up like this is gonna take some finagling, don't?
Speaker 2:ruin it um, and then I did. I thought that it was hilarious, that, that I thought that that was a bit from the movies, honestly, uh, yeah, and sir ian mckellen did it adorably. Uh, you know, just trying to look um, elderly and distinguished, in a need of something to perch on the wide eyes innocent super innocent.
Speaker 2:It was hilarious and I was like, oh my god, it's, it's a shtick from the book, like that's hilarious to me. Um, and then the only other thing slightly less fun is that worm tongue had given the order two days previous to not allow anyone through the gates and that immediately stuck out to me Just instant red flag, Like why is Wormtongue giving orders?
Speaker 1:Yeah, gandalf had the same reaction. Whenever he was mentioned, he got really, really testy and it definitely felt like there was a conflict brewing there.
Speaker 2:I also loved how you know, the rule was let nobody in who can't speak our language, and Gandalf, first thing he did was speak their language back to them and they were still just like oh, I didn't expect that yeah, and even that was a little fun, because I did not realize that, um, the, the men of rohan, like I didn't realize that they spoke a different language until going through that scene, so I didn't realize there was a separate language yeah, I guess.
Speaker 1:Um, I don't know this to be true, but I assume it's true. Uh, I think it's in the extended edition of the lord of the rings, but, um, at the funeral of theoden's son, uh, eowyn sings like a song in a different language and I assume that that's that language, you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's my guess, that's my guess again things that like it's been so long since I've done my last watch and I have no idea how long it's been since I've watched the extended editions wow, that's crazy.
Speaker 1:I didn't really I didn't realize it had been like a really long time.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and again, I'm not someone that would go every year around Christmas. I watch them. I know folks, I know you have rewatch parties at set times and I think that's fun if you have that sort of thing. And I also know people that have certain favorites that they watch every year for Thanksgiving, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:I've never done that. I am as much as I'm a mood reader, I'm a mood watcher, and so I'd be like oh, it's been a minute, I'm due, I'm going to do a rewatch. So that means I have literally no idea how long.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I think we had discussed this before. Like I, will watch either the theatrical cut or the extended edition, based on whatever I can get access to digitally um but there is a rash of in theater screenings happening across the country, so and I'm hoping that they will uh schedule some viewings in a theater near my new address very soon fingers crossed.
Speaker 1:I heard and I don't know if this is true, but I want to say they were advertising the first time ever in theaters the extended editions in the remastered versions, and I heard that that was going to be more like June-ish. So I've also got my fingers and toes crossed because yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, some of our friends in Discord had dropped it. I think it's coming through AMC Theaters. Yes, and I do believe that June was the date, but I have to wait for them to come to my zip code.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, I feel like I hear all kinds of things about like early releases coming to AMC or whatever, and I check my AMC right down the road from me and it's like not always, it doesn't always hit there and I just want, I really want the Lord of the Rings to hit there. I would travel, but I'd rather just be able to go down the street.
Speaker 2:So if they do whichever edition, if Fellowship hits a big screen because I've never seen it on the big screen, I will 110% be going to see it on the big screen, no matter which edition they're airing you must, you must, it is, it's a perfect movie.
Speaker 1:It's a perfect movie. I love it so much that it's just chef's kiss, um. But I am biased. They are my favorite movies, so but I don't know if that's biased as much as just you know, recognizing game and movies, they've got game.
Speaker 2:They do. They absolutely do. It was. You know, I was much younger when those came out. We all were, and I was just like well, poo-poo on that and I'm not going to have anything to do with it and I'll just wait and watch it in the comfort of my home. Looking at it now and the way that I just went and religiously watched Dune in the movie theater, like on opening weekend because I knew that for me I needed to experience that movie on the big screen.
Speaker 1:If I had to do it all over again, I absolutely would have gone and seen it first on the big screen this is not a breaking news podcast, but we did just get news today that there are Peter Jackson affiliated Lord of the Rings movies coming down the pipeline. The first one that I, you know I want to say. I saw an article that said there were two coming, but the first one is like the hunt for Gollum.
Speaker 2:So I saw that too. I didn't click on it, cause I'm scared to click on things, but as soon as I saw the title the hunt for Gollum I was like I get that reference. I know about that.
Speaker 1:I thought the same thing. I was like, oh my gosh, like that's something that we read about, like that's something that Gandalf described to us and like Aragorn also kind of told us about. I think, uh, and I guess, like directed by andy circus, which is funny. Funny because this week for my movie club I just watched rise of the planet the apes, which you know, andy circus once again absolutely slaying, with all of the motion capture and whatever, um, playing caesar the ape, I believe is what he did in that movie. Um, but anyway, so like having him involved, having peter jackson involved, having it be a story that actually exists in the books, all of these things have me just a little excited yeah, I mean, who knows how long it'll take to come to fruition, but it is um, you know, it kind of revives in me a little bit of that excitement only this time I feel like I'm in on the joke a little bit more, because you know, you know, now I know what?
Speaker 1:the hunt for speed? We know what that like, we know what that is, I know what that is. Um, yeah, I mean so far they're saying it's projecting or whatever for 2026, which to me it feels like you know we're I'm in the in the time of james cameron, where 10 years go by and you don't get a new Avatar movie. You know, if they really do it that quickly, then awesome, that's great. But I guess Peter Jackson is the guy who shot three Lord of the Rings movies in three years, right?
Speaker 2:So I guess they must have a script then. So, like I said, I didn't click on it because again, I do. You know, I'm pretty deep in this right now.
Speaker 1:I don because again I do. You know I'm pretty deep in this right now. I don't appreciate it.
Speaker 2:I don't want to ruin anything, um, and I also know that I have friends on the side who will give me the deets without any spoilers so hey um, so I'm definitely interested if they, if they're planning on having having it done in two years. It kind of makes wonder is there already a script?
Speaker 1:in there, I would think.
Speaker 2:Because two years is a very ambitious timeline if they don't have anything in writing yet.
Speaker 1:I would think, yeah, I need to actually sit down and read the full article because, of course, I've been reading snippets from it, I've been reading headlines and it just came out today.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I need to do a deep dive on the news just to see and a lot of times whenever they release stuff like this, they don't even tell you the whole story, the whole story, other than, like release day 2026. Um, I heard some. I need to. I need to look at the article because some people are like all the people involved are going to be like way older, that'll be weird. So I'm like, are they literally using ian mcclellan as gandalf and vgo Mortensen as Aragorn? Is Orlando Bloom as Legolas going to be in this? Because, yeah, that would be, that would be weird, it would be different. But anyways, if you know, let us know in the comments, otherwise I'll obviously be reading the article and many articles come, I assume. Okay, so that was a huge tangent, but exciting because we love Peter Jackson, basically. So they get let in right. Yes, they basically exchange insults with Theoden and Wormtongue for a while, and I wrote down some of my favorites, some of the notable ones, if you would care to rate them by burn level.
Speaker 1:So let's establish what the scale is. Do you want to go like one to five flame emojis, or what are we talking about here?
Speaker 2:uh, one to five flame emoji sounds manageable. Are we saying one flame emoji is you? Know low grade sizzle, yeah and and five flames. Is somebody call the fire up department exactly?
Speaker 1:yep, yep, okay. First one, theoden de Gandalf. When Eomer brought the tidings that you had gone at last year long home, I did not mourn.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna go two, two flames. You know pretty salty, but you know.
Speaker 1:More mean than like a zinger, you know, just like ugh, definitely gave me cranky old man vibes. Yeah, okay, and I'm going to do my best with these impressions, and by best I mean it's going to be mediocre. So Wormtongue to Gandalf, last spell. I name you ill news, and ill news is an ill guest.
Speaker 2:I had highlighted this one too. I do think that this is a little bit more mean-spirited, so I'll up it to three.
Speaker 1:Three fire emojis and the word in the wording. It's yes, it has a little something um. Okay, so worm tongue again. And I'm not. This is an exact quote, but he called the troop three ragged wanderers in gray and called Gandalf the most beggar-like of the four.
Speaker 2:Two, you got nothing better to say than to diss their clothes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we've been traveling, and also their clothes are from Lothlorien Get. With the program, galadriel helped weave these Okay. So Gandalf to Théoden. The courtesy of your hall is somewhat lessened of late.
Speaker 2:This is one of my top three from this section. Okay, um, and I actually would give this three fire emojis because I feel like it is so subtle and yet very much a dig.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you're supposed to be this noble king, we're all like worthy guests and we're not getting anything good. Okay, this is the last one I have written down, so if you have other ones, let me know, but this one is Gandalf to Wormtongue, a witless worm you have become. Therefore, be silent and keep your forked tongue behind your teeth.
Speaker 2:So that's my number five. That was my highlighted like Therefore, be silent and keep your forked tongue behind your teeth. So that's my number five. That was my highlighted. Like I loved this. And also follow up like personal note to follow up, I think some version of this made it into the movie. It did, but it was my favorite. So the third that I have is an honorable mention. I will call it. Well, you, why don't you judge it one through five?
Speaker 1:okay, okay, uh, master gandalf, you have ever been a herald of woe okay, yeah, um, I'm gonna give it a two, because nobody likes to hear that they're like they're a debbie downer right so I'm gonna give it a.
Speaker 2:It was definitely my honorable mention, but it was kind of at the top, it was kind of at the beginning of the exchanges and I was like, oh, we're starting out a little spicy.
Speaker 1:But yeah, no, this is tense.
Speaker 2:Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth and I was like snap, that is good.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I got gotta use that one. I hopefully never. That would be kind of rude to tell somebody that, but if I need to, I've got it ready in the chamber. It's on tap, yeah, okay. So gandalf, dramatically as always, frees theoden from the darkness that was holding him in his clutches. In the midst of the exchange, aragorn and eowyn eomer's niece sorry, theoden's niece lock eyes. First, things first. Do you ship?
Speaker 2:um, I no, I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure. So, and there's another scene later on where I actually highlighted it and I was like, is this romance? Question mark.
Speaker 1:Maybe a one-sided romance.
Speaker 2:You know, I was like this is not and I don't. I don't read Tolkien for romance, right, that's not, I don't need it to be. But, I was like is that what this was supposed to be? Because I don't yeah signaled that to me.
Speaker 2:Um, so I I did think that it was interesting to have aon be taken with aragorn. If nothing else is a representative of the rest of humanity, that is taken with aragorn. Male, female and be whoever you may be, I think there's tons of us who are in love with Aragorn to one extent or another. Yep, no matter how you identify it's a relatable condition, is all.
Speaker 1:I'm saying, it sure is.
Speaker 2:So I get it from that perspective. I and to create maybe a little bit of movie magic tension, the distance between Aragorn and Arwen and you know to, to kind of manifest a bit of a triangle, uh, but no, I, what I realized reading this chapter is I don't ship, yeah, no, no shade to anybody who does.
Speaker 1:I was just like, oh, I learned something about myself today I do feel like tolkien took the time to be like okay, so this is the. This is how aragorn's effect on women, you know like. Have you the? Uh, the office episode where idris elba is a guest and he's like I'm aware of my effect?
Speaker 2:on women yes.
Speaker 1:So in that way it was like okay, tolkien, and like you know, for the third woman that we've met in this entire series, um, after galadriel and arwen, who didn't even speak, uh, we've got eowyn and she is the first human woman that we've met and she is immediately going to fall in love with aragorn. At least that's the vibe he wanted to make sure that we got, uh, whereas aragorn in his mind is like, oh, she's beautiful but cold. And then later he's like, oh, this is a nice exchange between us, but I'm not gonna smile, you know, it's just like he's very much. There's like a big wall there, which makes sense, assuming he's with arwen, which he is like we've established that right because he, because she left him that present with galadriel and yes, but even that was very backhanded and left me going.
Speaker 2:Is this romance?
Speaker 1:yeah, are they together?
Speaker 2:it's true, yeah, it's been very we're not sure, and that's fine, right, like if it's an epic adventure story. Um, you know, the romance slant is not required by any means I just am like are you actually trying to do that? I'm not 100 sure if that's what you're trying to do. Is this love? Is this love because I? This love Because I was like the one contact between Aragorn and Erowind is their hands accidentally touch on a cup and she fills with hope and he fills with dread is how it reads.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, and I'm like oh, no, Ew.
Speaker 2:So in my head, my super sarcastic head, I was like the lady in the tramp scene. Where Is this love?
Speaker 1:And Aragorn's like.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Yep, pretty much that's what it feels like for now. So the second question I had about this dramatic exchange is how'd you like Theoden's release?
Speaker 2:I liked Theoden's release. I do think it was more subtle and felt like it had a couple of stages to it. In reading it, I do think that having seen the way Peter Jackson did it on screen helped me. I do think that having seen the way Peter Jackson did it on screen helped me because I don't think I would have gotten that at the end this was in fact a transformation without having that mental imagery to pull on, because, again, I'm not very good at coming up with visuals on my own. So I did think that it was more subtle and in that way also kind of like a little bit more insidious, like how long it had taken for him to get this far um for a worm tongue to have had this kind of effect on him.
Speaker 2:Um, and how gradual it must have been. And to see, uh, you know that kind of just alleviated in several very specific steps by gandalf and the interactions that they had yeah, I thought it was really good and I, I don't know, I I would call this literary umami.
Speaker 1:But then after he kind of comes out of it, he says dark have been my dreams of late, but I feel as one new, awakened. That's. That's, that's also, I believe, pulled line for line into the movies and it just like it. Just he kind of gives you the idea he's just been under this cloud, under the shroud, like he hasn't been himself and uh, and I agree that his physical transformation it was written into the book but, like I, there's nothing quite like showing, you know, something like that happening on the screen. It was definitely. I think we got more crusty on the screen than I would have pictured just reading it. And yeah, it's just like the degree of change I think was more severe than I would have pictured it in the movie, yeah, in the book than I would have pictured. No, it was more severe in the movie than I would have pictured it in the movie. Yeah, in the book than I would have pictured. No, it was more severe in the movie than I would have pictured it just from the book.
Speaker 2:Just based on the book description, but I think the accentuation by Peter Jackson and his team was well served.
Speaker 1:I agree, I agree, there was some of it, though, like I will say, you know, like him standing up straight once he got the sword.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say I didn't realize we were in it until there was another interaction and he stood up straighter and I was like oh, this is happening, it's kind of happening gradually via conversation, as he's kind of being verbally shaken from the haze that he is in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So it totally. There's some theatrics, but we love Gandalf for the theatrics. And then boom, yeah, he took, he takes him outside. So then theoden decides to free aimer, who I hadn't mentioned, but aimer was in prison, I guess, for basically going against something. Worm tongue wanted. Um, theoden calls the riders of rohan to arms and he banishes worm tonguetongue. Rather than imprisoning him, would you have done the same?
Speaker 2:No, but I am not a gracious leader.
Speaker 1:I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 2:I would. I'm not all that good natured. I think that somebody who can exert that kind of influence shouldn't be left roaming around, especially in such dark times. But I think that I can get behind why he did it. I just I'm not always on the side of merciful because I'm always concerned that merciful is going to bite you in the butt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, people keep showing mercy in these books, right, we had Bilbo with Gollum, you know, and now Theoden with Wormtongue, who had been fully corrupting the whole thing for a while, and we'll actually see. Well, I don't know if it's in this recording, but we'll see more of it soon, actually, this recording, but we'll see more of it soon actually. Um, so yeah, we've got theoden bestowing upon gandalf shadowfax officially, officially, handing over the title. So thank god for that. And upon legolas and gimli ornate armaments. The writers prepare for war and theoden, after seemingly forgetting that eowyn existed, appointed her the steward of the hall, since there were literally no male options. Did this make you feel any type of way?
Speaker 2:I don't ever like the woman being a last ditch effort, like being the last option. Yeah, but it is not an unheard of convention, especially at the time of writing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does not justify it, it's just the way a lot of things were handled back then I think the way it was worded was the worst thing for me, because it was bannon's over here, just like there are no other people in this line, and his guard had to be like, yeah, there are. What? What about her? She's literally, yeah, she's standing right there. What do you like? Yeah, it was uh, yeah, it was disappointing, but ultimately I was happy that he she did get appointed. It wasn't like a she can't do it, she's a woman. So at least there was that like. That was an exciting little turn of events.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the silver lining. There was no. Well, this job can't be done by a woman. At least there was none of that.
Speaker 1:Right, right, a woman beloved by all like perfect, great. We love, we love her we love to see it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the chapter ends with Eowyn watching the glitter of the departing rider's spears, standing still alone before the doors of the silent house. Any final thoughts?
Speaker 2:I had another quote that Thayden said about Amir when he was releasing him from custody. Faithful heart may have a froward tongue, which just means contrary, and I just I loved that. It's again, it's just a silly thing, but the wording was interesting. And then the only other note that I had was just that I thought that Wormtongue was just as greasy and distasteful in the book and he was so wonderfully portrayed by the actor in the movie, don't get me wrong, but he had really good source material by the actor in the movie, don't get me wrong, but he had really good source material because every it it was, it was almost like it was very, uh, two-faced politician as well as just you you're, I can tell. I can just tell by listening to you talk that you are a no good dirty rat by the things you do, just all of it.
Speaker 2:You're just a piece of garbage so I thought that that was interesting. I was like you know it's the and again, just put me in mind of that performance I was like he really nailed it. He really crushed that performance he really did.
Speaker 1:And the one thing that I was just like thinking in my head when I saw it in theaters well, and I watch it ever since is like how do you look at that? The way he played, the cringing, the like sneering, the snarling, the greasy hair, all of that, the way he played, I'm just like how do you look at that person and you're like that's a worthy advisor to a king. You know, just slimy, it's bad. So he was perfect. He literally he played it perfect. Okay, book three, chapter seven Helm's Deep. So, fun fact, the Battle of Helm's Deep is one of the longest, if not the longest, battle scene ever committed to film. Okay, yes, and in the two towers book it is one chapter. And when I saw that, it literally blew my mind and I changed our planned chapters for this read. So I was like we're going to read more than this, like I think we're going to stop here, did that? Did this surprise you that it was just one chapter, after having seen the movies?
Speaker 2:Uh, it did it. It did surprise me. But also a lot happened. So I'm not used, I'm not unaccustomed to beefy chapters where they man, where he managed to fit a lot into a chapter. But at first, yes, I was like, oh, and we're moving on, got it yeah, just straight.
Speaker 1:We visited the edit and now immediately it's time for helms deep. Um, I guess you and I are kind of the wrong people to be surprised by a gigantic battle taking up one chapter, because in the Wheel of Time books such a thing does happen, I believe in the final book. No spoilers, obviously. A single chapter called the Last Battle covers more than 600 pages in a standard paperback or hard or hardcover, I don't know, it's a long chapter it's a really long chapter, count as a novella, all on its own, like a novel.
Speaker 2:It's like 600 pages of a paperback, that's I don't think it's 600, honestly, I think it's closer to 250, but what it's still in like that, that's a book to plenty of people.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, for sure I must be wrong. Then the last battle.
Speaker 2:I have to look it up, okay, sorry. And I could be wrong.
Speaker 1:God knows it happens. Pages Okay, 214 pages in my copy. It doesn't matter, it's very long.
Speaker 2:It is very long and if you're reading it in the regular little paperback that's going to be a different page count than in the big hardcovers that I was using.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So however long it is, it's wild long. It's long and Helm's Deep similarly. Well, not similarly Nowhere near as long, but it's funny that it's like one of the longest battles ever committed to film and it's a single chapter. So, all that being said, as the company rides, they run into a messenger bearing ill tidings. Gandalf immediately and mysteriously decides to leave, bidding them to head to helms deep without delay and to look for him there after an urgent errand. Thoughts on gandalf's mysterious exit like why did it happen and could he not have explained it?
Speaker 2:but would he? Could he? Yes, but would he? Um, I just wrote gandalf's leaving again with my dot, dot, dot, um, because I'm very gen X, so I love my ellipses and I wasn't surprised. And I wasn't surprised not to get any context. Even since his return, he seems to still have some really inherent Gandalf ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gandalf the white is still gandalf turns out uh, yeah, him just deciding to leave and then so there were two writers there that we got like a little aside conversation from um, like a really sketchy convo about gandalf's departure. One of them felt a bit like a worm tongue sympathizer right, because he's like, oh, you know, like the. The one was like oh, we'll see when he gets back, and the guy's like might be a while, just like dude, what a loser well, and then his friend is like well, I bet worm tongue would have something to say about that right.
Speaker 1:He cites worm tongue, so it's like are you team worm?
Speaker 2:so I thought it wasn't funny. So I I think of like shakespeare and shakespeare love to use bystanders to interject humor and so I thought of that and I kept waiting for the funny. Um, and it wasn't. I like, oh so, so this isn't rosencrantz and gildenstern, oh okay, bye guys it's.
Speaker 1:It's angry people.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because, like this is another. Apologies for the wheel of time references, but this is something that happens in the first book and it happens in show, so everyone would know what it's about. But in the Wheel of Time there's this city that was corrupted by like these really hateful like, basically the hatred and greed of man generally right, generally right, and so it like that, that just like infects the entire city and they wall themselves off and they just don't trust anyone and they're greedy and it just feels like and it feels like worm tongue, I guess, as influenced by saruman, possibly as influenced by sauron, has kind of his influence, has kind of like seeped into some of the men of rohan. So they're starting to distrust, they're starting to be dissatisfied with outside influence. And that was the first thing that I thought of was just like these Pete, they're so suspicious Like, do one of them have a corrupted dagger from shatter low? Got that? I'm missing.
Speaker 2:And I mean, if nothing else, look at how drastic an effect he was able to have on Théoden Right. So who's to say he couldn't do that to anybody who spent prolonged amounts of time with him?
Speaker 1:yeah, so worm tongue sympathizer, not a funny aside, but like an interesting aside in that way um, and I don't feel like we see a lot of bystander.
Speaker 2:No, but no, from tolkien as a writer. So it was a bit of a standout moment like oh, oh, that's it just four lines.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, just like it's. It did feel I didn't, I didn't, I didn't place it as such, but you're so right that it feels very Shakespearean, just like. Pulls aside, like yeah, hey, buddy, you know what? What do you think about this situation? Right, like it's perfect, that's, I bet that's what inspired it.
Speaker 2:Honestly, um I did have a note leading up to this part. Yeah, and I I don't feel like I knew that there were men in saruman's army. So throughout this section we hear talk of other bands of men that have been recruited into saruman's army. You no real context at it at that point.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I was just sitting there going yet again, did I watch this movie? Because I'm like do I remember there being anything other than orcs? And I don't know that I do. I'm not saying there weren't, I'm just saying if there were, I certainly didn't notice, or they just kind of blended into the background and I was just like it's an orc army. Turns out, no, there are men in Saruman's army. And now I know.
Speaker 1:And there were several things that would have been different about the Helm's Deep in the movie and the helm's deep in the book that we will talk about here. Um. So, speaking of helm's deep, we've established in episodes past that neither of us are battle girlies. So I'm not gonna break it down with this outline, I'm not gonna go like beat by beat in the battle. Um, I'll just ask I have some points lined up that I thought was good, I thought were good, but do you have any high points from the battle?
Speaker 2:um, from the battle I had a couple of I had. Well, first off, leading up into it, gimli has a dwarf crush on the region and he's talking about there's good rocks here and I just was like you are so precious, I adore you, I know, but anyways, I'm going to put on my battle. Girly hat now.
Speaker 1:No, I'm glad you mentioned that. I should have mentioned that because it was cute.
Speaker 2:Because I was like that is the most adorable thing. Yeah, so, and in the same breath not in the same breath, but pretty close after it, gimli's saying give saying give me a row of orc necks and room to swing and all the weariness will fall from me.
Speaker 2:And I could absolutely hear John Rhys-Davies saying that Loved it. But I did try real hard to take some battle-related notes. So I liked the fact that they described the attackers being described as a dark tide flowing up the walls, Very creepy Possum orcs. So there was a band of orcs that pretended to be dead and stayed with the fallen orcs and then came back from life and attacked them. I was like that's some shiesty stuff right there. And then that the orcs snuck in through the culvert so that they were attacking from inside and from without. And then the other thing that I took note of, especially in this chapter, is sometimes the metaphors don't land, you know, a lot of times.
Speaker 1:I've already.
Speaker 2:I've already explained that the way Tolkien writes is very beautiful to me and I can see how it might be difficult for some, but generally I don't feel like I struggle with it too much. But I was like I'm sorry, sir, what?
Speaker 1:oh my god, give me an example.
Speaker 2:I must hear what we're talking about here he, he's got in there upon a great field of dark corn describing, I'm assuming, a field, a dark nighttime field full of orcs. But, I was like what so? And I completely am fine with the shortcomings on my part I don't understand how you get from orcs to corn. It's fine. Most of the metaphors simile, flowerly language he uses I really love and I find that it enhances the imagery. This one I was just like the. The what?
Speaker 1:excuse me so that I remember that like I, I remember pausing on it like corn. So they're just standing there swaying. That's like. Okay, I guess that makes sense. Sure, that's so funny.
Speaker 2:And then I had just two more things. Sorry, the fact that the counting thing is real in the books.
Speaker 1:I had that too. I love their little competition Come on. It's so cute.
Speaker 2:I love a good bromance. Yes, and. Gimli and Legolas deliver on that in spades for me, um so, uh, the fact that they started actually doing the counting, I got really excited. I like fist bumps to myself because I read by myself um, but I was very excited. And then the last one was a quote from Aragorn, saying yet Dawn is ever the hope of men.
Speaker 1:I literally have that as one of mine. I agree, excellent quote, but anyways, keep going. I just wanted to be like those are my highlights. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was me being a battle girl.
Speaker 1:We tried our best. Yeah, so I also have Dawn, as ever, the hope of men. Aragorn was such a leader during this, like he was like saving people were saving him. He was saving people. He was like talking to they had I don't know. It was just like I think he looks at amara at one point, is like now we'll fight together or something. He was.
Speaker 1:It was just very much like okay, argorn, like get it, man, yeah, you are a dream boat, first of all, but like secondly, yeah, I could see the leadership thing, um, and then theoden deciding to do his final charge was. It was like obviously, I think I read like a synopsis or something and they were like not a practical move, but you know, like for a normal battle, um, but good for him. And then only to find that the terrain had completely changed into a forest, gandalf had showed up, reinforcements and that was basically the end. The charge was meaningless except for like it's very symbolic and nice to see um. So this is one difference, other than the fact that there were evil men there, the trees did it surprise you it surprised me like crazy, um, and I had.
Speaker 2:There was also a little bit of additional context about saruman in here too. That talks about there's a quote, there's an old hatred that Saruman had inflamed. So it talks about how the men, the bands of men, were recruited by Saruman. So apparently these men are, you know, had very, very old, bad blood and Saruman played on that and so that and a couple of other things and I was like he really he does a lot of manipulation, misinformation, misdirection, he has. He's got a lot of machinations going in the background and that kind of stood out to me that I I don't feel again context. I don't think I ever got from the movie if it was there and I just didn't see it. But no, he felt very isolated, yeah, so so that was kind of crazy.
Speaker 2:Also another point for aragorn. You were talking about what a great job he did with leadership in this chapter and I agree, uh, to the point where he kind of gave a, an attab to Gimli and how he was fighting. He says about Gimli never did I see an axe so wielded, talking up what a great fighter Gimli was. And I, from where we started, where dwarves are, you know where Gimli is being kind of dismissed and disregarded as a subpar species in some circles. To hearing Aragorn speak highly of his fighting skills, not just speaking lovingly or fondly of him as a travel mate, but actually complimenting his battle skills, I really I love to see it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I love that too. Gimli has been such a I don't want to say a punchline, but kind of right. He's always like I don't want to ride this horse, I would be so much better on the ground. You know a I don't want to say a punch line, but kind of right. He's always like I don't want to ride this horse, I would be so much better on the ground, you know, and I don't want to run these this distance as fast as my little legs can carry me. Exactly he's been.
Speaker 1:I don't want to say a hindrance, but like. He's been keeping up with them, but like he's been the slower person in the party. He's been the person who has to find somebody else to ride on the back of their horse, whatever like, and now he's just dominating. Right, he's slaying, he's killing the game we we love to see. Finally, he has the orc necks that he's been asking for this whole time and it was uh, it was really satisfying to read and that aragornic saw it and acknowledged it and that, yeah, it's, it's not just him, it's not just us seeing it right.
Speaker 1:It saw it and acknowledged it and that, yeah, it's not just him, it's not just us seeing it Right.
Speaker 2:It was acknowledged in the story and, for whatever reason, I got really fixated on it and I really loved it in the moment. Yeah, and I also take a note of Theoden's last stand, his Butch Cassidy moment.
Speaker 2:I will not end here taking like an old badger in a trap I would make such an end as will be worth a song, and you know I can relate to that probably a little bit more than I should. Uh, and then my final note is that, uh, and then gandalf shows up with reinforcements like a boss, and again more bands of men that I had never heard of before well in the um in the movie, like amr had been banished, right, so gandalf shows up with aomer but so I guess that's kind of like it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's a different way to do it because aomer was with aragorn and thad and but like it's in these specific.
Speaker 2:You know clans of men aren't necessarily pertinent to the story but you know, just broadens the world that much more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so and also, I guess, the different. Another difference between the movie was gandalf told them when he was coming back it's like look, look for me at dawn on the third day, or whatever in the movie. And this time he's like I'll be back, just, I'll be back, just you'll be fine, and theoden calls him on it too, which I love.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So the chapter ends with the orcs Wailing. They passed under the waiting shadow of the trees and from that shadow none ever came again. Yes, quite the ending. Final thoughts on the chapter before we do MVP.
Speaker 2:I really liked it. Um, and I can understand why some folks would have wanted to see the battle in the movie. Maybe represent this a little bit more.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, I agree, because, like the elves also showed up to Helm's Deep, that didn't happen in the books, it was the men. The men did it for themselves, obviously, and Gimli and Legolas and the trees obviously. So I guess, like, which was so huge and different? Yeah, but yeah, it was different. Both good, both excellent.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It was fun, though, because I had kind of forgotten about the trees. Not gonna lie, I've seen the movie so many times that it was like when the trees showed up, I was like, oh yeah, duh, that happened. Yeah, okay, okay. So we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we read for each episode. Cue the music. Jessica who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Speaker 2:I am going to go with Gandalf again. He broke the haze surrounding Theoden, theoden, whatever it was and showed up with reinforcements that really turned the tide at Helm's Deep. I just I feel like for these two chapters, that's huge. You can't ignore it.
Speaker 1:Man, we're not having any controversial. We're not having any controversial, any controversial MVPs this time around, because, I agree, I think Gandalf took it. I think Gimli did amazing in battle, legolas did amazing in battle, aragorn had that leadership thing going for him, but, man, gandalf did the thing. He freed Théoden, he got him, he did it all. He saved them at helm's deep, even though he was a little sneaky about it. That's just gandalf for you, right?
Speaker 2:so and if gandalf hadn't done what he had done in chapter six, chapter seven wouldn't have gone as well as it did, even you know, because he needed to break theoden free in order for chapter seven to happen.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, yeah, gandalf wins. Um, if you disagree, let us know who your MVP is, either on my discord, where we talk about the podcast, or in the comments on YouTube. Um, I, I'm curious. I'm curious to see if anybody has any different results. Of course, whatever you decide is totally acceptable. I will. I disagree with you, but it's acceptable. So I'm curious to see if anybody picks anyone other than Gandalf, because he really slayed these chapters, in my opinion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we want to hear it, so feel free to tell us on discord or via social, via socials. So that's it for tonight. We would ask that folks read chapters 8 through 10 for next week. Both critter and I want to say thank you so much for tuning into episode 3 of season 3 of but are their dragons brought to you by your hosts, jessica sadai and critter xd. Don't forget to follow us at butter their dragons on YouTube, instagram and Tik TOK and butt dragons pod, just one T on X. You can also find us on social media as critter XD and shelf indulgence. That's it for today. We're going to continue to workshop new catchphrases, so let us know on socials how you feel about this one. Farewell, my hobbits. May we meet again next week. Bye.