But Are There Dragons Podcast
Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two fantasy-loving friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. We've already made our way through The Hobbit, LOTR, the Empyrean Series, Project Hail Mary, and we're currently working our way through Dungeon Crawler Carl!
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 5: The One with a Palantir, Frodo and Sam, & the Taming of Smeagol
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Kritter and Jessica return to The Two Towers to finish book 3, chapter 11 and begin book 4 with chapters 1 and 2. At the end of book 3, Gandalf teaches us about the Palantiri while also (thankfully) saving Pippin's biscuits! Book 4 finally brings us back to Sam and Frodo but unfortunately brings Gollum back as well, and some real talk about the dangers they face and what that may mean for their return, if they get one!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Friends Talking About Lord of the Rings
JessicaHello , welcome to , but Are there Dragons ? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time . I'm your host , Kritter , and I'm your host Jess .
KritterAnd we're continuing this adventure with the Two Towers by JRR Tolkien , with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran .
Jessicawith me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran , and me as the Lord of the Rings , first timer In this our fifth episode of season three .
KritterWe're going to discuss book three , chapter 11 , and book four , chapters one and two . So pretty exciting that we've made it into book four . How are you feeling , jessica ?
JessicaVery excited we get to see some old friends by breaking into book four .
KritterDid you expect that ? Like being broken up by book .
JessicaI actually didn't . So this is another thing where I really don't look ahead . So I didn't even look at chapter titles .
KritterSo as .
JessicaI flipped into uh , book four and saw the first chapter title , I was like oh , I probably could have guessed , but I didn't why ? Why , well like I like to come to the experience fresh I like it .
Kritterthat's a good attitude to have , um , but before we do revisit some of our old friends , we've got more recent friends in uh , while we're still in book three , so are you ready to dive in Any new news ? I will point out , if you're not watching on YouTube but you are listening on the podcast platform , jessica's got a bit of a different background going . How excited are you for that ? What do we have behind you ? If you want to describe it ?
JessicaWhat do we have behind you , if you want to describe it ? So what we have behind me is a ridiculously large bookshelf that I just purchased and chucker block filled with everything that has been in boxes . I think I've mentioned before that we were about to perform a move . Said move is done , new shelves acquired and swag is appropriately represented behind me . So I'm very excited . Because of my old space , I wasn't able to have my shelves behind me , so I am super excited .
KritterThat's what's new with me . That's awesome . So what I can see right now from where I'm at is we've got some Wheel of Time , we've got some Brandon Sanderson , we've got Gone with the Wind like front and center . Do you have Lord of the rings on your shelves ?
JessicaI do right above the hobbit and lord of the rings is in a little set right there . I also have a gray down there , lord of the rings but it didn't fit the aesthetic that was happening over here . These are all my little books . Oh , that's so cute .
KritterSo organization schemes like the way they just sometimes .
JessicaThere was lots of tweaking . There was lots of tweaking . I kept sending people final pictures and then , three to five minutes later , I'd send them another final picture .
KritterWell , I have to say congratulations . I think it looks amazing . I love a good bookshelf and I think you really nailed it . The shelfy game is strong here today . Thanks , chica . All right , you ready to get into the books ? Let's do it . The book , I guess . Okay . So book three , chapter 11 , the Palantir , the party departs . Isengard and Merry manages to get some information from Gandalf about their next steps when they camp for the night . Pippin is inconsolably curious about Gandalf , and particularly the mysterious glass ball , he notes . He knows he can't have it with Gandalf sitting on it like a hen on an egg , but he doesn't just leave it at that . Thoughts on Pippin's insatiable curiosity and a little bit of burglary in this chapter .
JessicaSo at first I didn't think much of it , which I think leads to you know , leads me to compliment the subtlety of Tolkien when he wrote it . At first I didn't really think much of it , and then the way that he kept kind of hounding Mary about how he just wasn't going to be able to go to sleep without knowing more , and at one point I had tabbed it , highlighted it in my Kindle and it said this feels a lot like ring-type behavior and I don't like it . And it said this feels a lot like ring-type behavior and I don't like it .
KritterOh , Okay , I can see that . See , I was thinking more along the lines of he's giving Bilbo here like the consummate burglar . You know , he even went so far as to replace the Palantir with a stone , so that Gandalf wouldn't notice .
JessicaVery Indiana .
KritterJones , very Indiana Jones .
JessicaYeah .
KritterIt's just like you know , we were so surprised or maybe we weren't surprised , but it was fun to see how Bilbo kind of eventually came to thrive in his burglar role , and it turns out that he's not the only hobbit that's got some skills .
JessicaNo , that was really impressive , but it was . It was both things at once . It was impressive how he was able to get it away from Gandalf , but also equally terrifying that he wanted it so bad that he was willing to go to those lengths . And in my mind I had already drawn a correlation between the draw of this palantir and the ring that it heightened the discomfort I felt as well . It heightened the discomfort I felt as well .
KritterYeah , no , it's like a really good connection to have made . I didn't even think about it that way , but he was like truly fixated on it the moment he saw it . It turns out he just got hooked . So , yeah , it's giving ring for sure . So we didn't get anything from this at first . As far as details , pippin takes it , he looks into it , he screams and he gets caught . This left me kind of impatient for details . Were you like oh , we're not going to find anything out at this point , or did you expect something later ?
JessicaI hoped that we would get something . So there is another book series from my childhood called Dragonlance and there is a magical orb that does gnarly things to people in it in that book , and so that very much put me in mind of that . For any you know , dragonlance buffs out there . So I was like they're going to tell us , they're absolutely going to tell us . But I was . I was absolutely on the edge of my seat . Obviously , this is all new content for me . I had no idea what to expect from this , so I was very enthralled for this chapter .
KritterSo he did eventually relay what went down with some major prying from Gandalf . Were there any standout details for you ?
JessicaI have highlighted here . Forgive you , tell me first what you have done and I had also . I don't think I wrote it down that you know the look on Gandalf's face was like haggard and weary and he was very concerned about pippin's welfare . Um , or at least that's how I chose to read it . Um , there's also another great , great quote from this area do not meddle in the affairs of wizards , for they are subtle and quick to anger . I had not heard that quote before , so I thought that that was pretty neat .
KritterUm it honestly , that does . It sounds just like a phrase anybody could say you know , it sounds like obvious words of wisdom that I could have thought of if I thought about it for a second . But it's just , you know , of course . That's of course .
JessicaThat's the case , yeah so , uh and honestly , mary and pippin , leading up to this , had just had a discussion of how Gandalf was the same , but also how Gandalf was different , and even the way they described it was . You know , good old Gandalf , but also a little scarier you know , to paraphrase how they said it that's really , you know . Oh , he's still Gandalf , but like a little bit scarier .
KritterYeah , not fully sure what his vibe is .
JessicaSo I thought that this was fascinating , that Pippin was reluctant to own up to what actually happened because he knew that he had messed up so bad and was genuinely scared to tell Gandalf . But this was another huge lore dump that seems like it's only about the Palantir , but still gave me so much more insight into the difference and the relationship between Isengard and Mordor , Sauron and Saruman and the nature of the Palantir itself , like I really only know what the movies had told me .
JessicaYeah , and it was just a seeing eye , but the idea of him being able to converse with pippin through it was horrifying .
KritterYou know the stuff of nightmares , so really , really interesting stuff , yeah , it was so things that stood out to me whenever he could see through it , obviously , because it's also like a seeing eye glass , whatever . Um , there were nine weekend creatures . So I'm like , okay , we've got the uh , we've got the ring race nine , the nine men and their fell beasts . Um , whenever he's in , in interacting with saran , saran initially asked why he had delayed reporting for so long . Um , implying that he thought that pippin was saruman at first and also that saruman had been avoiding him before eisengard was even taken , I assume . So that was like an interesting .
KritterYou mentioned figuring out the interplay between mordor and eisengard . That was part of the plot . You know they were . They were not exactly seeing eye to eye at that moment . We did kind of know that , but just that it was confirmed straight from the horse's mouth was interesting . And then , once sauron found out that it was a hobbit like whenever he was like who are you or what are you or whatever , and Pippin responds a hobbit , he gets all like hyped and extra cruel . I thought that was kind of really chilling . Basically , just like you know , don't go anywhere , I'm coming for you , just like that's kind of terrible to have that kind of you know person or being focused very , very exclusively on you . Not wouldn't have been my choice to be in Pippa's shoes . Not at all Gross . So after that , after that horrible encounter , gandalf takes the Palantir back and offers it to Aragorn , who notes that it was probably his by right anyway , as it likely belonged to his great-great-great , etc . Grandpappy ellendeal . Any final thoughts about this new , this one palantir ?
Jessicaum , it's crazy to me that these are around and that that aragorn would be a an inheritor of this . Yeah , that it would go to someone who is not a wizard , but okay .
Discussion on Aragorn, Gandalf, and Shadowfax
JessicaThe other thing about this exchange was the way that Aragorn and Gandalf had a little back and forth here , just a blip , where Gandalf essentially tells them you know , be wary , don't be hasty . Whatever you do , don't use it yet . And Aragorn basically says when have you ever known me to be hasty or unwary ? And then this is just such a great line . Gandalf's reply is never yet . Do not then stumble at the end of the road .
JessicaAnd I was like so I liked it because Aragorn kind of pushed back like I'm a pretty sensible dude . Yeah , have some faith . Yeah , but gandalf , still , you know , stay the course , brother , don't don't trip now , that would suck right .
KritterWell , gandalf doesn't even trust himself to look into it now , and so it's like you know he's . If he's doubting himself , he has every right to doubt literally anybody , because he's Gandalf the White man . Yeah , that was an interesting exchange for sure . I was just . I get more and more . I don't know why I keep getting surprised by Aragorn , Because when he was Strider he felt a little more reserved . I guess he felt a little more I don't want to say like self-conscious , but just not as sure of himself .
JessicaHe was fine , but nothing like crazy . And then he just has come into his own as aragon , son of a marathon , like he was very casual , like no .
KritterAnd now he's like , oh yeah , that's mine anyways . And I'm like , oh okay , sir , like good for you , I guess . Uh , yeah , which I don't hate . I like somebody who knows what they're owed , I guess what they're worth . So there was a . There was another line in here it was actually not aragorn or gandalf , but theoden said something that I had to literally like read like seven times to figure out what he was saying . He says oft evil will shall evil mar , and uh , and I was reading will as a verb , which is why I was having a problem . But um , yeah , it's uh , it's just a testament to how sometimes the way that Tolkien writes is a little dense .
JessicaIt was just like I read that sentence four times .
KritterYeah , it's like okay , what do we what ? The heck Like what ?
Jessicaam I missing ? Yeah , what ?
Kritterwhat did I ? How am I misreading this ? It's not , they're not big words . So yeah , just if . If you ever struggle or need to reread any passages or sentences , don't , don't feel bad .
JessicaYou can sit with us . It's cool .
KritterYeah , you can absolutely sit with us . It's cool . Yeah , you can absolutely see what was that . One was a . The one was a tongue twister , a little brain burner . Um , all right . So a flying creature unexpectedly passes over the moon and even though where they were kind of like camped for the night , gandalf just basically orders them all to ride on like we've got to get out of here .
KritterThe Nazgul have crossed the river . Pippin is with Gandalf and observes that he's riding bareback . They're riding ahead on Shadowfax . Gandalf remarks that Shadowfax won't have a hardness and you don't ride him . He decides whether or not to carry you and if he does , then he'll keep you on his back unless you decide to literally jump off . So what do you think ? Horse girl , best horse ever oh , I love it .
JessicaYeah , no , I . I read it and I wrote dang straight yeah , of course you don't ride . I don't fax the lord of the horses , come on now yeah , yeah , yeah it's .
KritterOh , my gosh , this reminds me of uh okay , have you seen tropic ?
Jessicathunder . Uh , when it first came out , a gajillion years ago .
KritterFirst of all , I absolutely adore that movie . Some of it I get is dumb humor , but some of it is so brilliant I can't get enough . It makes me LOL every time . But it reminds me of Robert Downey Jr's character when he takes himself very seriously as an actor and he's like I don't read the script . The script reads me . Takes himself very seriously as an actor and he's like I don't read the script . Script reads me , like you know , right , shadow facts , it's not shadow facts rides you . Shadow facts decide , decides whether to bear you and and if he does , then you don't have to worry about staying on his back . He'll keep you there . Just it was . It was fun and intense . Sounds like a pretty great horse .
JessicaHaving ridden bareback at speed for a long distance . The reality probably doesn't hold up , unless you have the lord of horses as your mount . What ?
Kritterwas the occasion for that .
JessicaI was a horse girl so I just decided to hop up . I was also 15 and bulletproof , I don't know about you , but when I was a horse girl , so you know , give it a try Just decided to hop up . I was also 15 and bulletproof , I don't know about you , but when I was 15 , I was indestructible . So you know , nothing would hold me back from just taking my horse out on the lead line and just hopping up bareback and running down a trail .
KritterTotally . How do you even get up on a horse without a saddle ?
JessicaI'm 15 and you're this big around you just grab the mane . Hop up like .
KritterLegolas , oh , come on , you have to at least pull yourself up somehow it does depend on how tall the horse is . Okay , that's fair . My family , actually for a long time , my uncle and my grandpa and my dad , they , uh , they would go hunting in colorado like once a year out hunting , if they drew the tags and uh , so they had mules , not horses but , they were shorter , stockier , um more stubborn , for sure , but I I haven't ridden many horses in my life yeah , I'm not saying that that's recommended behavior for anybody .
JessicaI want to be 100% clear PSA , don't let your children do that . It's a bad idea .
KritterOkay , I was unsupervised .
JessicaI was unsupervised . Okay , well , that sounds like a very 15-year-old thing to do , so I forgive you and I live to tell the tale , but Shadowfax sounds like a dream to get us back on the rails .
KritterYeah , like love that for everyone that you don't have to worry about falling off . That could be really great for me , who's only read a few horses in my life . Okay , so now that we've talked about the horse , we get a little bit more about the Palantiri , which is the plural of the Palantir . About the Palantiri , which is the plural of the Palantir , there were seven , possibly crafted by Feanor , who is a Noldor or a high elf of old , and men communicated with one another through them directly , except in the case of the one that was at Osgiliath before its ruin , which could basically look in on . Any of them is what I understood . Gandalf guessed that Sauron got a hold of the one that was in Minas Ithil , which is the tower he took , and turned into Minas Morgul . So that's a lot of new words , some of them new .
Discussing Palantir Lore and Curiosity
KritterDid anything pique your interest from the palantir's backstory ?
Jessicauh . So again there was one palantir to rule them all . It kind of felt like which , you know , and I I did pay attention to the fact that there was one in osgiliath and that you know it said uh , not minister . At the other menace that was essentially taken over , you know , by the bad guys . Eethu . Thank you .
KritterYes , You're welcome . It's a lot of names . The only reason I know it is because I wrote it down .
JessicaIt's like okay , yeah , so I thought that that was interesting . I just to draw another analogy , you know , kind of like the Wheel of Time , age of Legends types artifact , where this is how this was used in a more glorified time period in a past age . This is how this technology was used , or this arcane , how these arcane items were used , and now they're nowhere to be found .
KritterOr they're not being used for the .
KritterThey're not being used as intended right , the best purposes , of course . Like when I found out there was like one palantir to rule them all , my first instinct was that's the one sauron has . And then gandalf decided , or at least speculated , that no , in fact that's the one that meanest morgel and I was . I understand that makes sense . But the paranoid me still is wondering where is the master palantir ? Where is that thing hiding ? Um , not that I don't even , I can't even remember if I find out ever , but uh , I am curious . Did . Are you curious at all ?
Jessicawhere the big one is oh oh absolutely Okay , Not just me , then . I'm just like I'd never trust anyone . But I'm like , are they sitting in abandoned towers , unused , you know what I mean ? Are they sitting in an attic somewhere Under ?
Kritterrubble because Osgiliath fell . Yeah , there's a lot of opportunity . It could just be gone , gone , which is a thing that happens .
KritterDestroyed Right . That happens , destroyed Right . So who knows ? Who knows Anyway . So Gandalf lets Pippin know that they are actually headed to Minas Tirith . They're not going back to Helm's Deep or anything like that . And Pippin eventually begins to fall asleep with the strange feeling that him and Gandalf are still a stone , seated upon the statue of a running horse , while the world rolled away beneath his feet with a great noise of wind . That was the end of book . Three Final thoughts .
JessicaI loved that Pippin took advantage of his solo time with Gandalf and was kind of grilling him , yeah , and even called him out a little bit , right . So he mentions to Gandalf that he wants to get some answers and Gandalf feels chastised about how . You know , it is my job to take care of you and and you are , you know , I forgot how he worded it , but making me rethink how you define the word , meaning how , how I take care of others . And then so Pippin continues to question him and he says what more do you want to know ? And Pippin's like the name of all the stars , of all the living things , the whole history of metal , earth , of course , what less ? And I'm just like I love in that moment , I just loved him so much for just being curious .
KritterCurious little hobbitses . Yes , curious little hobbitses .
JessicaYes , there was some poetry that was shared during Gandalf and Pippin's ride that had a hyperlink , so it was footnoted , but it was not behaving appropriately . It felt like it was taking me to another part of the book so I didn't wind up reading it , but the lore that he was sharing in there seemed significant Palantir related .
KritterNo , I feel like this was .
JessicaNo , I feel like this was . Honestly , I thought it had something to do with the migration of the elves , like how the elves moved around . Hold on , I can find it .
KritterIf we ever get through an episode where I don't have to look for something , it will be well , but then what's the point of taking notes or whatever like this ?
Jessicauh , makes sense , here we go tall ships and tall kings three times three . What brought they from the foundered land over the flowing sea ? Seven stars and seven stones and one white tree . So the the one white tree made me think of , uh , what I believe might be the elvish origin story for at least middle earth , and I know that , like there's a history I don't know at all because I'm not have not read the silmarillion , but I've definitely had enough context clues from the reading that we have done that it seems like the elves originated elsewhere , came here and then , you know , as a species , are choosing to leave again . So that's what that made me think of . Okay , yeah , and that could stay rhetorical , but that's , um , you know , that definitely caught my eye , uh , and the one white tree specifically stood out .
KritterYeah , that also kind of reminds me of rings of power .
JessicaThere's a lot of trees and rings of power so when it mentioned feanor and the noldor I I was like is feanor somebody that we met in rings of power ? I don't know if we met him , but I believe he might have been referenced I think that's right I think that's right . Yeah , and I fully intend to jump right back in when those come up yeah , that one .
JessicaWe just got the teaser trailer for that okay , I haven't seen because I've been on unpacking books , but I'll be watching that very soon , that's fair , uh , all right , anything else for book three done .
KritterThat's it for book three . Okay , big transition , drum roll . Oh my gosh time
A Journey Through Middle-Earth
Kritter. We're moving on to book four , chapter one , the taming of smiegel . So you saw the movies . We know what's about to happen here , but three days have passed since frodo and sam departed from the fellowship , so we are rewinding , pressing reset on everything we read from the fellowship members the other fellowship members at least . Are you feeling like whiplash where ? Where are you at here with this ? Jump back in time .
JessicaUh , I'm glad that we are just jumping kind of almost at least all the way back , instead of trying to do it like them in a hot spot and trying to somehow flash back and cover the interim time . So I I would rather go back to the beginning . I'm with Gimli right , like I like a chronological story . It really works for me . Yeah , I get it . So I was glad that we , you know , did the full rewind , because that's honestly just easier for me .
KritterThat's fair . So the chapter starts out very hobbity . Sam is tiring of lembas craving bread and beer , still carrying around pots and pans with nothing to put in them . Meanwhile , frodo is despondent over time lost and opportunities lost . Now this to me feels like a big tone shift from what we were just reading like . Would you agree ? Does it feel different ?
Jessicabut we think so this was this is almost two weeks back .
KritterThat sounds right .
JessicaYeah , I think that sounds right Somewhere between a week and two weeks back . And if you think back to where we were at , you know Frodo just had that altercation with Boromir , yeah , and he and Sam have been fleeing not very successfully in these really jagged hills . So I think despondency is definitely a tone shift but seems justified given where we pick up with them .
KritterYeah , where he was back , God , two weeks . I'd have to actually count it , but it feels like so much has happened .
JessicaIt was nine days that the Hobbits were separated right . It was nine days that Merry and Pippin were separated from Aragorn , legolas and Gimli , wow , and then we had more time pass . Yeah , so if for these we have , three days has passed since the Boromir altercation , so the start of this book .
KritterYeah .
JessicaSo yeah , you could say , probably nine days roughly have passed .
KritterWow , helm's Deep Battle of Isengardgard , all of them nine days , jesus who ? Whoever says the tolkien is slow , they're wrong .
Jessicayeah , it's , it's very yeah no I feel like we're doing stuff every episode yeah , it's , it's .
KritterIt's a lot of making moves , for sure , um , okay , so Frodo finds a place he thinks is their best chance to climb down , cause they are , they have been stuck unable to really advanced . Um , and Sam agrees but insists that he gets to climb down first . Obviously , and this kind of becomes a theme . This chapter , do you have any ?
Jessicathoughts about Frodo and Sam's multiple climbing mishaps . I just love . I am there for the loyalty bid , so Samwise has many fine features . Loyalty is definitely a huge draw for me . There's my favorite quote from this chapter , though , is about that , you know , regarding Sam preparing to climb down first to you know . Check it out for Frodo . It is doubtful if he ever did anything braver in cold blood or more unwise , and I just I love that right . I know that it's not necessarily a way to live your life , but that , to me , encapsulates their entire relationship . Sam will do whatever it takes .
KritterYeah , I thought it was really sweet . I just you know . You know I love Sam . But one thing that made me really laugh was when he remembered that he had rope , like they were like trying to free climb down this cliff .
JessicaSo I'd written a note of like that dang rope . We knew it was a thing back in the day when it got mentioned . And here we are and he even makes a comment about he carried it for hundreds of miles and I just never have I ever related more . You know , just being like dang it . You know I put this Tide pen in my purse for a reason . I finally dumped the salsa on myself and I forgot . I got all the way home before I remembered I had the Tide pen . You know like I get it . Perfect analogy I get it .
KritterYeah , yeah . So he's like he was so fixated on the fact that he didn't have rope . Then he gets the rope , then he forgets about the rope . It just felt perfect .
JessicaIt was so relatable and then it turns out the rope is somewhat magical , so it sheds some kind of soft light that helps um in a really important way . And then somehow Sam is magically able to ask nicely , and the rope unties itself . Come on , that's awesome .
KritterThat is awesome . So I will point out before we move on is that I learned something new with this one . So Sam says that the rope was about 30 L's and I had to look up L . So , fun fact , an L is about 1.25 yards , so the rope was about 112 feet long , which is a long rope . Also , just for everyone's fathom , is a word that I had heard before , but I'd never like actually looked it up .
KritterTwo yards is a fathom . Um , so that is a fact that we know now . Um , and so we mentioned sam and frodo . They finally make it down with some help from this rope , and sam laments the fact that they have to leave it behind . Though you mentioned , that didn't end up how it ended up . His exclamations though noodles and ninny hammers I'm immediately adding that one to my repertoire . But you said the rope ultimately made its way down to Sam , just because he asked nicely or whatever . Do you think this is magic ? Just magic with a capital M ? Elvish magic . What do we think ?
JessicaI think it's lowercase magic . So we talked a little bit about how hobbits aren't an inherently magical species , but they had some traits that do seem to lend them abilities that can have an almost magic-like quality , and I feel like the rope is an extension of elvish lowercase magic .
JessicaYou know what I mean that the work that they do is just imbued with this natural essence that you know gives advantage on the decks rolls . I don't know , I don't know how else to explain it , but you know , you're able to shake the rope and it just comes undone . And I love the fact that he , you know , was like you can . You can bad mouth a lot of things about me , but don't be talking smack about how I tie knots . Yeah , okay .
KritterIt runs in my family . Okay , I'm good at tying knots .
JessicaI've been tying knots , since I was knee high to a grasshopper is the total vibe that I got from that . And the ninny hammer . He was calling himself names and so I had to remember that Gaffer was his father . And so he's calling himself the names that his father would have called him , which is again very relatable right . Like a lot , of our inner monologues are dominated by people that we love . True , and so yeah , I was like oh , Ninny Hammer , something your dad used to call you Got it .
KritterNoodles , such a good curse yeah .
JessicaI love it , but whatever you do , no , not slander . Yeah , that's where we draw the line . Yeah , he would be good draw the line .
KritterYeah , he would be good at tying knots even outside the Shire .
JessicaHe would be considered an apt knot tier .
KritterSo the two finally crash for the night once they've made it down and they notice a dark figure climbing down the cliff after them like a nasty crawling spider on a wall . Ugh , good description . Didn't love how it made me feel . Enter Gollum Any thoughts about Frodo and Sam's Gollum snatching efforts ?
JessicaSo I was not happy that Sam's internal dialogue about Gollum was so kind of hateful , just very . I'm not saying it's not deserved , but it starts out really super negative and I don't like that . I do also think it's very creepy that Gollum can climb down head first , that's super creepy .
JessicaI do like the fact that Frodo got pretty assertive here . So once they figured out the thing with the rope , frodo's like I don't want to be caught out here . You know , frodo's really kind of taking charge and not just being a passive bystander . Yeah , um , so letting sam know to go ahead and tie that to the stump and and we'll do this and we'll do that . So that was another comment from this general vicinity . And then , um , yeah , so , like sam even said , he can try his nasty flappy feet on those ledges .
KritterYeah , like it gets really spiteful when it comes to gollum like I don't know how I feel about that buddy yeah .
KritterSo speaking of this kind of interaction , um , it brings up an interesting legal and philosophical issue . So frodo decides that they can't kill gollum because he hadn't done them any harm . Sam points out that Gollum definitely intended to harm them , and Frodo responded that what Gollum meant to do was entirely a different matter . So there's this topic of debate preemptive punishment . To what extent can we punish a person or deprive them of liberty for something they haven't even done yet ? There's also , of course , a concept of an attempted crime , which is punishable , but to convict someone of an attempt they have to have taken like a step toward completion of the crime . That's sort of the requirement , I think . Sam , in less words , is arguing that Gollum following them essentially was his step toward completion of whatever evil deed probably murder that he intended , and Frodo seems to think not at least that he wasn't worthy of punishment just yet . What do you think ? Would any punishment be too premature , or was Gollum attempting a crime here ?
JessicaI would side with Frodo in this , even though it's a hard topic . And again , I feel like younger me had a different take than older me . I feel like younger me when presented with the topic of preemptive punishment in movies like Minority Report or any other media . You know , I find it the idea fascinating .
JessicaBut as I've gotten older , intent does matter , but also so does following through Um , and we know that I stand Gollum in a lot of ways , so I'm sure that that bias doesn't help Um but if we were all damned before we took the action , redemption would never be possible for anyone , and I live in a world where I think that it's important to believe in our ability to redeem ourselves and to be better . Yeah , and if we can't be better , then what are we even trying to do ? Fair , fair , fair fair so I want to believe in a world of redemption , and so I'm gonna side with frodo and say that it's not enough that he's following um , that there is still something there to save okay , that's fair .
KritterI I tend to agree . I like the um . You know we got flashbacks in this chapter of the conversation with gandalf where who are you to decide who gets to live or die ? You know there are people that live that deserve death and people that die that deserve life . All of that and I love the sentiment
Analyzing Frodo, Sam, and Gollum's Dynamic
Kritterum .
KritterI do think I don't . I don't know that I would have gone as far as Frodo went in the trust department like right , you know , not having him tied up , being okay with that , uh it that there were some . I think I would basically find myself in the middle between sam and frodo , in the sense that I wouldn't trust gollum and I would take steps to ensure that he couldn't betray me , but I also wouldn't tie him up and leave him to die or murder him in cold blood , basically Because I tend to agree Him following them could also , even though he probably would have killed them . You know , that's definitely conceivable . He was following them first and foremost because they had the precious right he could sense it , he's driven to it .
KritterHe's driven to it . He's driven to it and so it's not entirely his fault . So I'm like leaning towards you here a little bit .
JessicaI know you're like I've got that sympathy for him and I feel like elijah wood played it , still very skeptical , you know . Uh , it's . So going back into this , knowing that we're with gollum right away , absolutely put like I cannot wait to watch these . Oh the way , there is a showing of the Fellowship in my area and I'm going to go watch it . Yes , I'm so glad . Sidebar everybody . Sorry , but I'm going to go watch it on the big screen for the first time ever .
KritterThat is so exciting . I'm going to go see the Return of the King because Mr Critter didn't want to go see three lord of the rings movies three days straight , which I guess I can understand so I only saw fellowship in my area .
JessicaI'll have to go back and look . As we know , june is a little bit of a busy month , so we'll see yeah , it is , it is well it is .
KritterIt's like fellowship is on june 8th or like it's literally like one of them is june 8th , one of them is june 9th , one of them is June 10th or something along those lines , and so it's uh , it's tricky , it's a . It's a Saturday , sunday , monday , so I'm seeing return on Monday because that's the only day .
JessicaWell , that's funny because it's in my area on June 8th as well . But I only looked up . The fellowship is in my area on June 8th . So now I'm going to wind up going back and looking . I don't know .
KritterLook at you , Knife , I'm going to , but I do think you know I wouldn't if I were you , just because , like you're putting off watching them before you've read them , I would . You know , two Towers is fair game because we'll be done reading them by then .
KritterYeah , close enough at least , but I would I don't know I would wait on return , yep , even though it's my favorite , just because , yeah , but it's obviously up to you . I mean , getting to see them in theaters again is just such an opportunity that it's hard to pass up fellowship is such a good movie that I'll be happy , even if I just make it to that one .
JessicaIt's a perfect movie it movie .
KritterIt's not my favorite of the three because it doesn't make me cry as much . I love to feel the emotion . But Fellowship , I think , is the most just bookended , perfect story . I think it's excellent . Just a beautiful , beautiful movie . I think you've got a really good choice there and I believe fellowship is actually mr critter's favorite as well . But we went with return because it was up to me , because he was the one who limited which one , how many we could go to .
JessicaI will say that mr jessica had a similar sentiment , like you're only gonna get one and it's not gonna be the two towers . It's not going to be the two towers , it's like , oh , okay .
KritterSome people's favorite is the two towers . That's so interesting Not me , but some people . Some people it's a good one , they're all good . I mean , they're amazing , anyways , yeah , anyways , okay . So we talked about the conversations between Gollum and the hobbits .
JessicaThey were so interesting to me .
KritterThere's pity hostility , groveling and lots of Gollum talking to himself . So how did these go over for you ?
JessicaSo I want to go back just for one second to you , mentioning that flashback from the Gandalf conversation , tempering Frodo's response and counseling him to feel pity . You know , even the wise cannot see all ends . I love the fact that all of that dialogue was in set into this chapter , like it was thoroughly called out .
JessicaNow , granted , it was only a Frodo flashback , but I love the fact that he put it right in . And then the back and forth . You know Frodo telling Sam right up front , don't underestimate him , he's still very dangerous . Sam getting bit sounds terrible . Having all of this back and forth really just kind of points out just how far gone Gollum is . You know just how desperate he is . The ingratiation , um , eventually swearing to them , uh , definitely all . He's clearly in a very desperate time .
JessicaUm and then the tying of the ropes , and the ropes feeling like it's burning him , and the lembas just revulsing . You know , it just repels him . Uh , all of these things are just show how far from the light he is .
KritterYeah , yeah , it's pretty wild . Gollum asks where they're going and frodo's reply was kind of chilling for me . He's like you know , you know that , like you've guessed that I'm just like these two . They have this , you know , like they have this weird connection . They have this really weird connection , and so just the fact that frodo kind of like changes when he talks to gollum- that his tone , his demeanor , everything , and sam's like witnessing it , and we're witnessing it too , and he just feels like a completely different person .
JessicaBut he's also the first one to call him smiegel you know what I mean like , yeah , that's not sam , that's frodo who is going to use his real name and and sam even makes a comment about the two were in some way akin and not alien so even sam's , you know internal monologue comments on . You know there's already a parody there of some kind yeah , it was weird , it was .
KritterIt was a weird thing to
Discussion on Oaths and the Ring
Krittersee . Um , so you mentioned they try to . He tries to run away whenever they fall asleep and then they catch him again , try to put him a rope . The rope burns him , which I was skeptical about . Like , is he faking , you know , because he's so manipulative . But then frodo eventually comes to believe that it's really hurting him .
KritterSo he takes it off of him and gets this idea that he should swear by the precious so that they can trust him and the swear golem ultimately gives is to serve the master of the precious , which literally broke my lawyer brain because the master of the precious could be anyone in this case possession is 10 tenths of the law . Did this bother you at all ?
Jessicabother .
KritterNo , but I'm not a lawyer okay , really , god , I thought it would . I was like this is so transparent , how did frodo not be ?
Jessicalike me . It is , it is um . So I took that . You know , I feel like . At first , frodo said are you sure you want to swear on on this ring , this , this ring that you know has this negative power ? You want to be beholden to having your oath sworn on this ring ? Um ? So I hadn't , really I didn't . I was more caught up in that than okay , the language of I swear to the master , not to say that I saw that it was full of wiggle room holes .
JessicaYeah , it bothered , but it just wasn't the thing that I was primarily focused on yeah , and I guess I kind of forgot .
KritterWell , I didn't forget , but now it's making me think of how . You know , the game of riddles was like such a sacred thing and I'm trying to remember . Is there something similar with oaths , where it's like in this universe , giving an oath is like more than just I promise you know what I mean . I'm like I might be wrong about that . Maybe I'm just thinking of the riddles .
KritterBut the fact that Frodo assumes that the ring is going to like actually legitimately bind . Gollum Made me curious , like why ? Why is that the case ? And is it just like one ring to rule them all ? You know , that's just the vibe of the ring , or is there something more ? I just , I , I , I don't know swearing on the ring , I guess it's like swearing on the bible for some people .
KritterBut even people who swear on the bible end up like and they lie yeah , and so I was like I would literally take this with an absolute grain of salt . But frodo seems to think , for a while at least , it's gonna hold him to it , and I just don't know why I had just , and so I just took it like I took it sight unseen , like sure no problem , because it's a magical ring .
JessicaSo I was like it's a magical ring . So to me the premise that this has consequences , you know , for swearing , forsaking an oath , sworn on this ring , would likely have consequences because we've seen how magical the ring is okay fair enough , so I just took it that's fair .
KritterI mean , I should , I should basically thing number one why does swearing on this ring matter ? Thing number two doesn't matter , because the oath he gave has so many holes poked in it like that it even if it was gonna bind him , it's not really gonna bind him . Those were my thoughts . I don't , I didn't like it , basically , and that's the end of the chapter .
JessicaAny thoughts for the remaining of the chapter .
Suspicion and Vulnerability in "The Marshes"
JessicaIt commented at the end of this chapter that something about the oath triggered a tangible change in Smeagol's behavior . And so this is probably . This probably was represented on the screen in the movies , but to hear it called out I was like oh , okay , so we're attributing it to that .
KritterHe gets real friendly , real fast .
JessicaHe does , and I didn't know if it's intentional , because he's trying to ingratiate himself , or if it's magically induced in some way , but his behavior has changed and it's noted by the narrator at the end of this chapter yeah , yeah , I .
KritterI constantly just think he's manipulating them , but I am very I'm not as pro golem as you are , so that's don't get me wrong .
JessicaI know , I know he's a nasty , I do okay .
KritterSo book four , chapter two , the passage of the marshes . The hobbits and smiegel stop for a break and to avoid the yellow face that gollum hates , aka the sun , um , and they realized that , like the rope , gollum can't handle Lembas either . It makes the Lembas taste a lot better in Sam's eyes , who takes the first watch . So throughout this journey you talked about this before in the last chapter , but Sam remains quite suspicious of Gollum , more so than Frodo by far . At this point , you've you feel you're feeling more like frodo than sam when it comes to gollum , or would you be as suspicious as sam , basically ?
JessicaI would be as suspicious as sam , don't get me wrong . I think that the suspicion is more than merited . I so for him to sit there and be eating his lembas and to just look at him and internally be muttering he should have just been choked out already . Like that's extreme to me . Yeah , especially for Sam , you know . And so , and in this chapter we talk a little bit about how everybody seems to be under the influence of something , how Sam is under a spell not under a spell but under a weight and how .
JessicaFrodo is definitely under a weight , and how ? Nobody's asking Gollum , but he seems to be under a weight as well . Um , so I think that you know what it could be is the whatever Paul is over them is having a negative impact on him , but to just sit there eating your lunch and to look at somebody going God , I wish somebody would just choke you out .
KritterThat's not appropriate .
Jessicabehavior Like that's not charitable in any way . No , like the mean thoughts . No , you know that's a little dark , that's a little twisty even for me , especially from our golden retriever boy right Like this is not the Samwise from the Green Dragon , I do agree with that .
KritterI don't like the mean , nasty thoughts . I do agree with the suspicion . So I'm somewhere in between Frodo and Sam . Basically , I'm on Frodo's level when it comes to not having mean , nasty , terrible thoughts . I'm on Sam's level when it comes to not having mean , nasty , terrible thoughts . I'm on sam's level when it comes to the suspicion .
KritterBasically , um , okay . So after a long day's sleep , frodo and sam wake up and sam tries to take stock of their food inventory , asking frodo how long their task taking the reed mortar was going to take and what they were going to do about food for the return they then have a bit of a moment where Frodo basically just says he doesn't see them needing anything as he doesn't anticipate there will be a return journey . Any thoughts about this pretty tender moment between the two of them ?
JessicaI was just like , oh , we're saying the quiet parts out loud , Okay , I thought that it was very tender and vulnerable for both of them and I love that it was written out the way that it was and that it was as vulnerable as it was .
KritterYeah , in the sort of description Sam holds Frodo's hand and bows over it and he doesn't kiss it . They say , say , but his tears do like fall onto his hand . Um , and I found that to be just yet another classic Frodo and Sam lesson in healthy male intimacy . Basically , like these two are just they are bros , man , they are like this and , uh , I kind of love that about them , they , they're just really sweet together . Yeah , yeah and also again .
JessicaSo we pointed he's referred to him as master quite a bit . So again I managed to put it aside . Right , he refers to him as master several times in these first two chapters . But this is a . This is a moment between peers .
JessicaYeah , you know and so it just adds layers to it that both of them each allowed themselves to cross that divide between master and servant , perceived or otherwise . I don't feel like Frodo really perceives Sam as a servant , but because Sam perpetuates the term master , it's hard to ignore it on sam's part yeah , agreed , I wish it was different , but it's fine .
KritterUh , so the party finally reaches the dead marshes and begins to cross them flickering lights and pale dead faces in the water surround them , though , according to gollum , the dead in the water are not physically there . There are men and elves and orcs laying there from a battle long ago , and so we got to hear a lot about what it looked and felt like in the marshes . Anything stand out to you ?
JessicaCandles of corpses is a name , that's a thing . So for the flickering lights , that's quite a thing , um , and don't look in while the candles are lit . Uh-huh , those . Those are some very specific elements that I was like , wow , that really kind of elevates it . So I remember I remember the marshes as kind of almost a fever dream approach and this is just a little bit more horrifying . So another way that the book kind of amped up the experience , so that was interesting to read .
KritterYeah , we got a lot of landscape description in this one . I know it was a lot , I'm not complaining , but I , I , I I'm so much better at picking out literary umami in the chapters where the landscape is beautiful . Right , we get these sweeping grassy hills , what , like this ? Beautiful sunsets . We get all this stuff and I'm like , oh my god , this beautiful , I love reading about this . And then we get to the dead marshes and we're getting a lot of what it looks and feels like and I'm just like I don't .
JessicaAnd it turns out the dead marshes aren't the deadest thing , cause as they move beyond the edges of the marshes , it's worse . The land is even worse , Um , even worse . You know , at least in the marshes and I'm paraphrasing you have the corpulence of stuff that grows where things rot . You don't even have that .
KritterYeah , it was a rough one . It's harder for me , I think , to focus on language when , like of like descriptive language , when not describing something pretty that feels so shallow , but like that's just kind of how I experienced it personally .
JessicaIt was all grays and Browns and gross and and fumes and reeking and squishes .
KritterIt was all really bad . Not a pleasant thing to read , for sure .
JessicaI think this all of that , all of that also kind of glazed over . The most interesting part of this chapter for me was sam witnessing a golem smeagol conversation yeah , yeah , so let's talk about that .
KritterUh , let's see what do I have here . So sam , what yeah , uh , he talks about ? He's talking to himself about what to do , about Frodo and the Precious . The Gollum side of the conversation points out that if they just take the ring , they would be the master and wouldn't have to worry about obeying Frodo , which I totally saw coming . And he carries on for a bit making plans , debating himself , like talking about how she might help them later , and then Sam pretends to wake up because things are kind of getting a little like they're ramping up . He's kind of like working himself up to something . How do you feel about how all that went down ?
JessicaI think that it was interesting because I , if I remember correctly , there was only one scene in the movies where somebody said what did you say ? And he goes not talking to you , and that's as close as it's come to anybody other than the audience , the movie watchers , experiencing a Gollum-Smingle conversation . So having Sam see that , I think , is brilliant and interesting , and I can't wait to see how that plays out over the remainder of their travels . The other thing that really really stood out to me about Smeagol's argument with himself is that there's hints of real ambition in there . So it's talking about being Lord Smeagol or Gollum the Great , and it took me out of the book for a second . I stopped and went whoa . So coveting the ring endlessly doesn't sure no problem . Like that's the landscape that I'm used to .
JessicaThe idea of blind ambition appealing to Smeagol in any way threw me way off . I could see that happening to a character who hadn't been affected by the ring as long I guess I don't know , but it was just weird to me . I'm like he's lived in a cave . He eats raw , wriggly fishes . The idea of him wanting to be a lord or or in mastery of some way was just so strange to me that was . That was probably the biggest thing for that whole section was I ?
KritterI did not see that coming I guess I just chalked it up to like that's the influence of the ring right , because the dark lord is all about that , like becoming the ruler of all . But then why was ? Why was he down in the caves for that long ? You know , he didn't have ambition while he was down there , or maybe he did and he was just trying to keep the ring for himself , who knows . But that was a different side of him for sure .
JessicaYeah , covening the precious . I have no problem believing that . I just , lord Smeagol and Gollum the Great really kind of threw me for a loop a little bit . So we'll see if there's anything else like that .
KritterI just was not expecting it . So there was another different side of Smeagol and maybe I'm just reading too much into it . But at one point Sam is complaining about the smell of everything . He's like everything smells , like you smell Smeagol , whatever , because Smeag was like sniffing the air , I guess was the context . And uh , and smiegel replies that sam stinks too , essentially saying poor smiegel smells it , but good , smiegel bears it . And to me that was like witty , almost , like he was , like he wasn't just like saying , he was like jabbing him in like kind of a witty way , which was not expected from him either .
JessicaBut he's obviously clever to a certain extent . Because the ring chose him , he's been able to keep it . Yeah , you know . So he's clearly not a stupid character by any means .
KritterDefinitely not , Definitely not . And he keeps showing that now that we get to talk to him even more . So we got Sam , we got Smeagol . Let's talk about Frodo . At one point a ringwraith passes not far over them and then we get a bit of Frodo's perspective . Frodo can feel an eye on him , a horrible growing sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to pin you under its deadly gaze , naked and immovable . That sounds pretty terrible .
JessicaWere you glad to get the status check from Frodo , just at least to the weight that he's carrying ? And the mention of I with a capital E starts in chapter one , like right off it's capitalized Um , so , and then it's kind of elucidated here is it's clarified that , yes , no , this is not just um , just the Paul of traveling through scary territory . He is feeling it like a physical weight and it is coming from the ring . It's referenced a couple of times in the reading and then by the time we get to the end of chapter two , tolkien's just telling us point blank like this is having a physical effect on him , like additional gravity on him , like additional gravity , um . And that's validating because , as it was mentioned through chapter one and chapter two , I was like is this because of the ring ? And thanks for the payoff yep , sure is , uh .
KritterSo the three stumbled on through the weary end of the night and until the coming of another day of fear , they walked in silence with bowed heads , seeing nothing and hearing nothing but the wind hissing in their ears . That's the end of the chapter . Any final thoughts or notes ?
Jessicabefore we pick an MVP , I wish that we had started a Nazgul sighting counter .
KritterSo we had a couple of sightings in this read , we did .
JessicaAnd I was like how many times have we seen something cross the moon ? I wish we had counted .
KritterYeah , I guess in this read alone it was the like the thing that inspired Gandalf to flee . Yeah , three and then one . Whatever Frodo was like dangling from the the cliff or down at the bottom of the cliff or something like that . Like lightning strikes , whatever something crazy happens . And then a third time just while they're .
JessicaAnd that leaves Gollum on the ground in the fetal position because he's overdone . He's like three times can't be an accident , that's right , that's right .
KritterWait , so then that would be four from this read , because it was three with them . Yeah , three , just for them and then one for gandalf and pippin and that crew . Uh , lots of nazgul sightings this time , yeah so anytime a shape flies over the moon well , for a while there was like is it an eagle ? Because we we kept getting eagles there for a bit , um , and now it just feels like it's just Nazgul , like we're just getting the ring race this time . Yeah , basically .
JessicaOkay , so that's it . Nazgul counter Future self .
KritterOkay , from now on , all right .
Chapter MVP Choices
KritterSo we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode . Cue the music , jessica . Who would you name as your MVP this episode ?
JessicaThis episode was hard because I was so excited to have our boys back , but I'm going to give it up for Gandalf , okay , and all the lore and saving Pippin's silly behind , okay . You know , having OP Gandalf the white back is pretty awesome and I'm not convinced that Pippin would have been okay If it wasn't for Gandalf being there and being able to reason out what happened with him . How exposed are they by the interaction that pimp had had I ? I just I'm like I need to give it up for gandalf yeah , it was impressive .
KritterI mean , even at one point pippin was like passed out or whatever and he like touches him on the head or something and revives him . So you've got to love a little healing spell , yeah , or whatever . That was a little jolt of adrenaline to get him to come back . Uh , so that's a respectable choice . But let me just say that , for is it the first time this book I'm picking ?
Jessicasomething different from you like we have been .
KritterWe have been side by side with this , but I think I'm gonna deviate here . Okay , I think , for the maybe first time at all period throughout this entire podcast , I'm gonna pick frodo as my mvp , because he kept such a level head throughout such terrible circumstances , with the weight of the ring weighing him down . Um , even though sam wanted to climb down first , at one point , frodo took charge because he knew that sam wasn't going to be able to do it like . He got , you know , injured , and sam helped him and stuff like that . So like props to sam , for sure , but sam also had the like , extreme suspicion and the negative thoughts . Frodo , though , had the idea to have Gollum swear on the ring . He , he , his choices , got them through the dead marshes and everything , because without Gollum , no way they would have made it . So , just overall , I think I just got to give some mad props and respect to Frodo and and just the realism , right , granted , he's very despondent , probably because of the effect of the ring and the eye looking always for him , but just like knowing that what he's doing probably doesn't have a path back . Like he's , he's literally going to his doom . I guess that's an interesting way to put it . He's literally approaching doom and he's doing it willingly , with his eyes wide open . It's just that . Is that's a hero right there , even if he's he comes in a small package . So , yeah , that's my choice . Solid , yeah , I feel pretty good about it .
KritterOkay , well , let us know in the comments or on Discord , if you're on my Discord , who you think the MVP this session is . You've got Gandalf , you've got Frodo , you've got Shadowfax . I actually considered it . So there's several viable options . If you're more on Team Sam , when it comes to the mean thoughts about Gollum , it could be Sam . He had a rope that also helped them out . It could be Gollum . If you've got really interesting tastes , whoever it is , just let us know . I'm curious . And also , if more people pick Frodo than pick Gandalf , then I will feel very , very justified in my answer . Not because I'm competitive , it's yes , it's because I'm competitive , but don't feel compelled to pick Frodo . Pick who you think is the real MVP . We're very curious to hear your choice . Yes , yes , okay .
KritterSo read for next week , book four , chapters three through five , and thank you so much for tuning in to episode five of season three of . But are there dragons brought to you by your host , jessica sadai , and me , critter xd . Don't forget to follow us at but are there dragons on youtube , instagram and tiktok and but dragons pod ? Just one on X . You can also find your hosts on social media as CritterXD and ShelfIndulgence . That's it for today . We're workshopping new catchphrases for season three , so let us know on social media how you feel about this one . So I'm going to give you a little backstory on this one . Jessica found it . I think it's great , but she suggested that I should give it a go , because sometimes I like to do impressions and I do not have a canned Gollum impression . So I'm going to do my best . Please don't make fun of me , but if you do make fun of me , do it in the comments , because that helps with the algorithm . Okay , let's go .
JessicaFollow Smeagol .
KritterHe can take you through the marshes .
