But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 6: The One with the Black Gate, Taters, & Faramir!
Join Jess and Kritter once more, this time for The Two Towers Book Four Chapters 3 through 5. After a brief, spontaneous cicada discussion, they are off to the Black Gate, Sam makes a stew, and the party encounters some important, new strangers.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Join Jess and Kritter once more, this time for The Two Towers Book Four Chapters 3 through 5. After a brief, spontaneous cicada discussion, they are off to the Black Gate, Sam makes a stew, and the party encounters some important, new strangers.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host Jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Two Towers by JRR Tolkien, with me as a resident Lord of the Rings veteran, and me as the Tolkien first timer In this our sixth episode of season three.
Speaker 1:We're going to discuss book four, chapters three through five, before we dive in. Jessica, what's new with you? How are you feeling?
Speaker 2:Good, summer is pretty much here and all that that entails, so ready to hop into it. How about you?
Speaker 1:Is where you are. Are there cicadas?
Speaker 2:There are not cicadas, but I haven't been here very long and I keep meaning to ask if cicadas might come here. I kind of need to find out.
Speaker 1:Well, if they're on the same calendar schedule as the cicadas where I am, which is St Louis, they're on their way out. We hit peak cicada probably about a week ago. It has been wild. They're still everywhere. So do they go east, west, wherever the heck they want? I, it's my understanding that they just like emerge around the same time and then they go away after like four or five weeks. Obviously I am not a. What is the word? I'm not honest. No, yeah, no, oh, what I know? The word entomologist bugs right entomologist bugs.
Speaker 1:It might be entomologist. That one's gonna make me mad that I can't think of it, but you might be right, you might be right um, either way, let us know in the comments we're wrong. I'm definitely gonna look it up after this.
Speaker 1:But uh, I'm no bug expert and it might depend on the climate, right, it might depend on longitude, latitude, situation, like you, know, because, from what I understand, they like to come out during the best time of the year and by golly they have, like we are having absolutely beautiful weather tainted by these gosh dang cicadas, yeah and uh. Thankfully they're almost, I think, like they're, they're, they're sloping downwards, um. So by the time, dear listener, you hear this, hopefully they will be just on their way out almost completely, because, man they are, they like to ruin garden parties I saw.
Speaker 2:I saw some pictures that I looked at and I went that's a nope. That's what that is. That's a classic nope. Uh, because the person had, like their glass sliding door and all of the mason work and the walkway and this really beautiful cultivated backyard and it was just a wall of insects and even in a still I could feel them moving. They were touching me. It was not okay.
Speaker 1:And the thing is they're so dumb that when they fly they don't have like a sense of where they're going. So they're just as likely to avoid you as they are to hit you. Like you know some bugs are like I'm going to steer clear not cicadas they are. They're like June bugs, just dumb meaning. No thoughts, just vibes. So I guess you didn't have them whenever you lived in New England.
Speaker 2:I don't recall, no, I don't recall ever having them and I always just kind of chalked it up to you know, it's the nice days are a little bit fewer. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, that nice.
Speaker 2:But where I am now in Ohio, like we just had a really nice swath of great weather, like you just mentioned, even today, you know, it was a little bit cooler, um, so fingers crossed I think you're probably fine, I dodged it they haven't showed up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know somebody from wisconsin who had never seen them before either, but having grown up in missouri, I have.
Speaker 2:This is my third big wave that I have lived through um the way you describe them, though, is just like they emerge and they do their time, and then they go back.
Speaker 1:Sounds like something from.
Speaker 2:Supernatural.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, we joke that they're like aliens. They are the most alien species I can think of on this planet, Like you know, other than the ones that are like the deep dark things.
Speaker 2:Deep dark ocean. Yeah, and the deep dark ocean has some weird stuff.
Speaker 1:Can't describe, I can't relate, can't you know? Speak to that. But think about like they're bugs, but they come out in a specific schedule, like every 13 years or every 17 years, and the way they do it is they come up out of the ground, like you know. Have you read ender's game? I don't know.
Speaker 2:They just remind me of the bugs in ender's game, like the they just like the tunnel but I swear to god, there was a supernaturalnatural episode with that too, and I think they were in fact aliens, so okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then they, you know they do their thing, and then they lay eggs in the trees and then I guess the larvae like work their way into the ground again, and then they 13 years later they come back anyway. So yeah, oh, this is my, this is my life this will never be jess and critters bug hour.
Speaker 2:This no sorry.
Speaker 1:Wow, we've talked about them forever, so if you, we can definitely start talking about the book if you are experiencing cicadas, just know that I can sympathize this. As I said, my third wave of them, which doesn't make actual sense to me now that I'm thinking I guess, like the 17, they, they like overlap weird. I think there's more than 13 and 17 because, yeah, I couldn't have witnessed three 13 year batches. I'm not that, I'm not of that age just yet. So anyways, but I know I've witnessed, like one wave I witnessed as a child, one wave I witnessed in college and now I've got. Now I've got this one.
Speaker 2:So whatever it's, fine, you go to college out of state.
Speaker 1:Maybe you're impacted by a different I think I was impacted by a different wave. I just can't remember. I just know there's a 13 year and a 17 year and I can't remember. Like what? Another? What? Another increment? Yeah, another increment? I'm not sure it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1:We've talked about cicadas for five minutes, so I think we can move on. All I just want to say is like, I sympathize with anybody who's experiencing the cicadas. I hate them probably just as much as you do, unless you like them. In which case why? Unless you just like? How you know, they apparently create a birthing boon for like species in areas that the cicadas happen, you know. So that's good for the environment, but I'm still not a fan and we're gonna move on now, okay, okay, great. Book four, chapter three the black gate is closed. Sam frodo and gollum make it to the main and presumed only entrance into mordor, and the gates are very, very much guarded. Frodo intends to continue, though, as he has a quest that he intends to see through. Gollum begs him not to, suggests he give the ring back to him and leave, and eventually suggests that they go another way. What would you have done in frodo's shoes?
Speaker 2:I, I don't know. I thought that it was incredibly sly of gollum to suggest that he give it back to him. Uh, because, depending on how far, how much, frodo is struggling with the burden of his quest, that could have worked. So in that moment I was like that is incredibly clever. I don't know. I honestly don't know what I've done. I am not particularly clever, I don't feel so. If an obstacle like that, how would I go around? And until we get to the point where Smeagol starts hinting that there might be another way in, and that's where I took a turn, kind of right along in lockstep with Frodo. Frodo got very sick of Smeagol's bull really fast. He just wasn't answering direct questions. Is the way guarded or not? It's the next best viable option for him and he needs real information. And Smeagol is um, what is the word when you're just being so evasive, smeagol's being incredibly evasive, being so evasive is smegel's being incredibly evasive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, evasive is a good word, it describes it perfectly. Um, so yeah it. It really raised my hackles immediately when spiegel just slipped in, like just give it back to me, and I'm like, uh, excuse me. And then frodo did chime in uh pretty harshly with gollum, uh, for suggesting that he give him the ring, telling him he will never get back and that he is bound by Frodo's commands, which could end up being to leap from a precipice or cast himself into flames, like that was kind of so. This is met with great approval from Sam, who absolutely hates Gollum, and he thinks to himself Sam does that Frodo is the wisest being to ever live, except maybe for Gandalf and Bilbo. Do you have any more thoughts about this, like Frodo turning a corner on Gollum and all of that?
Speaker 2:I think that it shows the progression. You know, I feel like the ring. I don't know. There's nothing in the book that this is substantiated on, this is just pure vibes. I feel like the weight of the ring takes a greater toll on them where they are, and so it's making him less patient. Yeah, you start adding in those contributing factors of Frodo's already essentially decided that this is a one-way ticket.
Speaker 2:Um, frodo knows that this is um, you know this, that this is going to be his doom. But ultimately he has to do the thing and see it done. And well, if there's nothing for it, then might as well get to it and get it done. And you know, stay the course and see it done. And well, if there's nothing for it, then might as well get to it and get it done. And you know, stay the course and see it through. Um, yeah, the other thing is in this part. So sam's inner monologue has nicknamed the two sides of smeagol as slinker and stinker, which again name calling. But okay, yeah, and there was also some dialogue in there from the narrator telling us that, and I'm paraphrasing this Sam is saying it's a good thing. Smeagol didn't know their true plan, otherwise he would be putting up more of a fight and that kind of stuck out to me because Frodo made a comp, made that comment that I think you commented on in a previous episode about you know Frodo saying to Smeagol you know where we're going.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so if Frodo's living under the assumption that Smeagol knows their mission, yeah, there's a difference between knowing the mission and knowing where they're going, because smiegel also made several comments, like you know. I could just hand you over to some orcs. They'll take you there, he's he said that several times as if, like, frodo is heading to mordor, because he's, you know, as if Sauron has put him on his strings and is pulling him towards him, right.
Speaker 2:Sure, I guess I didn't even think of that right. Like he could be going to Mordor at Sauron's request and going willingly to be a bad guy.
Speaker 1:That too, though, distresses him. I feel like he mentions like we can't get it back. That too, though, distresses him.
Speaker 2:I feel like he mentions like we can't get it back. If he gets it back, then he'll eat the world, or something.
Speaker 1:It was such a weird way to phrase it. But even if he like either way, he would be distressed, and so part of me is like, has he just not thought about it that hard?
Speaker 2:Or is he just in a tough spot and wants to be near the ring and so he's just going to guide them as long as he can until he gets stealing? Basically, I feel like he's gonna do whatever it takes, because he's biding his time until he has an opportunity to grab the ring.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what it feels like to me too.
Speaker 2:So if he didn't know other thing of that is that smiegel was um as fruto frodo's giving Smeagol the business. You know, sam's internal monologue is saying how impressed he is, but he's also a little shocked, right, like he's not seen Frodo take that tone or treat anybody in that way. Yeah, so I just thought that that was noteworthy too, for sure.
Speaker 1:And I think you're on to something with frodo. Might just be like losing patience and becoming like shorter of temper the closer he gets um, and that the burden is probably like weighing him down further and further. But I do think I don't think that is, as he showed, ever going to be like cause him to give up the ring. She's like I don't, I don't want it anymore. Right, because he's still, even if he hates it, even if he feels burdened by his task and the ring, he's still under the influence of the ring, even if he's more immune to it than, say, smiegel is. Um, yeah, so he's got a lot of stuff that he's battling with right now and I really feel for him for that. Um. So frodo's gonna make this final call where we're going, where, where's, where's the next step? And, as he's thinking, sam witnesses four great flying beasts far above more nazgul. Are we tallying?
Speaker 2:did you tally? I wrote it down. I was like winged beast sighting.
Speaker 1:Okay, four, count it Four of them. So men from the south continue trickling into Mordor. This has been happening this chapter, not far from where the party is hiding, and Sam asks if they have elephants with them. When Gollum doesn't know what those are, sam trots out a little rhyme that makes it clear that Oliphants are just big elephants, which delights Frodo and rouses him enough to make the decision to go with Gollum to another location. Did you enjoy the Oliphant talk and the rhyme?
Speaker 2:I did. I loved the idea of the Oliphants and that Sam is interested in seeing them. I loved the rhyme it definitely made me think of Treebeard and and their rhymes to remember species and things. Oh yeah, so that's kind of what that put me in mind for and I absolutely caught myself in the moment kind of just hoping that Sam gets to see an Oliphant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I felt it felt it gave me whenever he was so excited to see an Oliphant. Yeah, I felt it felt it gave me whenever he was so excited to see the elves, like in fellowship, I guess, yeah, it had happened in fellowship. It kind of gave me that. But he's, you know, he's seen elves now and he loved it and had an amazing time. And now that this is like the next step up.
Speaker 2:And it's a throwback. Yeah, first, all of us, next, yeah, and it's a throwback to that whimsical side of you know. The childlike joy of this is a thing that I have read about and I'm very interested in, and and just that pure curiosity untarnished by you know where they are and the gravity of the situation, um. So it's nice to see that whimsy kind of burble up to the surface.
Speaker 1:Almost aided by where they are right.
Speaker 1:Because he was bound to the Shire, never left right, hadn't seen elves, hadn't seen anything. And now that he's on this adventure, however terrible, at least he's got these little glimmers of hope. You know, maybe I'll see elves, maybe I'll get an amazing rope, Maybe I'll find you know something, get an amazing rope. Maybe I'll find something to eat that isn't lembas bread. Maybe I'll see some oliphants. He's got so much I don't know. I love that he maintains some degree of hope and curiosity amidst bad, terrible things all around him. Okay, well, that is the end of that chapter. Did you have any final thoughts or other notes before we move on?
Speaker 2:Just that Gollum had pointed out some things about Sauron's perspective, that Sauron does not expect an attack from the south and that he shares. That Sauron can't see everywhere all at once, at least not yet Properly menacing all at once, at least not yet properly menacing um, and I think even frodo comments about how much insight he seemingly has into sauron um but just thought it was noteworthy to point out that uh, a southerly approach apparently does not is a safe way to approach, because uh sauron won't expect an attack from that direction yeah and then gollum said I yeah, yeah, gollum, said I.
Speaker 2:So at some point things got heated and, uh, gollum didn't refer to himself, as gollum didn't refer to himself as smiegel referred to himself in the first person which I believe is the first time in any of the reading that I have seen him do so. I don't think that I have so it I I saw it in the moment and then immediately, uh, I think frodo calls it out or sam somebody's internal dialogue, comments on it. Um, immediately, as it's happening. So that was. That was definitely a standout moment yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 1:I can't remember exactly the situation, but I remember it was smiegel was getting like defensive about something and frodo was like. Well, he must be telling the truth, because in his fit of rage, or whatever he's, he used the first person instead of his like silly, whatever names um. So yeah, that was definitely notable and it might have been the first time. I don't remember it happening before.
Speaker 2:I really don't think it has. Somebody can prove me wrong. If somebody has, you know the chops to go through and find it, but I don't recall in any of the dialogue in the cave, you know, even going back, throwing back to the Hobbit. I don't think he referred to himself in the first person at any point.
Speaker 1:I don't think he referred to himself in the first person at any point. Fascinating, Okay. Book four, chapter four of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit. So, speaking of Gollum, we keep getting this pale green light showing up in Gollum's eyes like a flash of it. At the beginning of this chapter it's when Gollum is talking about maybe finally getting something to eat. Do you read into the green light in Gollum's eyes at all? What are you? What are you thinking is happening with the green light?
Speaker 2:uh, I I hadn't, but now I feel like maybe I should have been oh, I just, I just noticed it, it's, it's been happening this whole book. His, his eyes are so big and so luminous, anyways, by description. Um, the green glint is definitely only commented on in certain instances. Uh, to your point, I wonder, I wonder if he's, you know, gonna get to a point where he's desperately hungry and and things, things will get tense more tense.
Speaker 1:I feel like I've only noticed it and maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I notice it and it shows up. And when it shows up, I immediately think, okay, this is evil gollum, right. So, like what could he possibly be thinking? And at this point he's like you know, maybe I'll finally get something to eat. In my brain. I was like, oh god, he's talking about sam, um, and before, like he would you know he'd be like I'm good, whatever. And then sam would say something that to like insult him, and then there would be a green light. So I'm just like, is that him being like murder golem? Like is that the signal, the green light? Like that's just possibly. I would, I would just keep an eye, keep an eye on it. I see what you did there, because that is what I'm getting from it um that's yeah, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:Just just take a look, just Just keep an eye on it. All right. So the party enters a relatively pleasant country, which surprised me, though it's still, of course, in enemy territory. Sam asks Gollum to find them some food, and Frodo takes a nap as he does. Sam admires him, noting that he seems to have a light shining from within, and also murmuring I love him. Are you still thinking bromance here? What kind of love is this, do you think?
Speaker 2:So I don't know. Honestly, I think that whether it's plutonic love or romantic love, either way it's a very tender moment and I honestly had chalked it all up to bromance to this point, but I did walk away going. Maybe he really was writing something from that perspective. Um, I think it could play either way very easily yeah, that's where I'm at.
Speaker 1:I feel like, in this case, intent might be one thing but the way that the reader interprets it to me, because it is could so validly be interpreted as a bromance or something more romantic just based on these like extremely tender moments between them. Right, who I? You know I love a lot of my friends, right, but I would never watch them sleeping and just be like I love them. You know what?
Speaker 2:I mean Like my gosh, but you're also not going through the perilous experience that they're going through not to take away. And I have friends that I plutonically tell them that I love them. You know they're absolutely people that I have that level of closeness with. That. There's nothing romantic in the relationship. But I also don't think I would necessarily be sitting there watching them sleep. But who knows, in these very dire times what it might come out to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it could really go either way. I think, whatever it is, you're right, it's incredibly tender and I kind of love that Either way, if it's a bromance, but something that is this old having those moments that, in a positive light, show this kind of male intimacy, whether it's romantic or not. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go out on a limb and say there wasn't a lot of that represented on the page in a positive manner. Probably not age in a positive manner.
Speaker 1:so, whether it's plutonic or romantic, it's positive male intimacy, and I'm sure there was a huge lack of it. Yeah, so, either way, definitely here for it. Yeah, it is sweet, it is really, it is very sweet but I?
Speaker 1:this is the first time where I was like maybe I've been not, maybe I've been undershooting it, maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is beyond the romance yeah I think a moment in rivendell also kind of made me like this is pretty tender, if I'm remembering right, but granted, he thought frodo was gonna die, so like maybe a reason to be a little more tender. Either way, Love it either way. If you listener want to weigh in, do you think this is reading to you more bromance or romance? Let us know in the comments or on Discord. Okay, so Gollum brings back some rabbits and Sam sets in to make Frodo some stew. In this exchange between Gollum and Sam we finally get one of the most quoted lines for my family from the movies Taters what's taters precious? And po-tay-toes Though boil-em, mash-em, stick-em in a stew seems to be an invention strictly for the movies. Do you and yours have any oft-quoted lines from Lord of the Rings?
Speaker 2:So we say po-tay-toes all the time and so I highlighted that with little, you know, lols and then gaffer's delight, so you know it was like his dad's favorite dish, so I thought that that was even more endearing. So I think the potatoes is probably the most quoted line. Yeah, I'm trying to think of any other movie quotes that I'm drawing a blank no, I'm having a really hard time.
Speaker 2:I was having a conversation over dinner with mr jessica about who died and who lived in which movie. Um, and he was kind of picking on me. He's like you're killing off a lot of people who didn't die in the movie and I'm like, isn't that? I don't know, it's fine oh yeah, there's.
Speaker 1:There's a lot for me, honestly. We already talked about the Gimli, very dangerous over short distances. That one for sure for me, because it applies, and there's actually one that I've got later on in my outline that I'll point out.
Speaker 2:So we can circle back to this. I love if anybody in your family is willing to participate and you made a montage of the Critter family favorite loader moments. Okay, I think that would make a hell of a TikTok, because I do know that some of your family has done cameos for cupcakes and stuff they have.
Speaker 1:They have and like favorite characters and whatnot. That's a good idea. Well, I'll definitely be seeing them, probably over Father's Day and stuff. So they have, they have been like favorite characters and whatnot they've done. That's a good idea. Well, I'll definitely be seeing them, probably over father's day. So, okay, they were lord of the rings moments. I love it. Um, all right, so they eat the stew, but sam forgot to put the fire out silly sam. And it started smoking, attracting some unwanted visitors Faramir of Gondor and his men. At first, the men couldn't figure out exactly what Sam and Frodo were. Any thoughts about this first meeting?
Speaker 2:I thought that it was great. There were two things about them meeting that immediately stood out to me. One is that Frodo admits that Gollum is under his care. Frodo essentially, kind of tangentially, takes ownership of Gollum. You know they comment on seeing him lurking about and you know he's he's recently met, but he is under my care, and I thought that that I feel like it could be interpreted more than one way, right, like he's not taking ownership or responsibility for Gollum's behaviors.
Speaker 2:But by framing it that way, that he's under my care, there is a little bit of a protective slant to it in my mind and I find that endearing. So it's again the naivety right, the fact that you think that Gollum needs protecting and that you would even do it because nobody else would, because you know, as we've seen, folks who know him for more than five minutes think he should be put down or whatever. So I just I think that it was kind of a noble approach from Frodo, for sure, yeah. And then the other thing is to hear Faramir's men talk about him as though he is charmed Fate has spared him for some other end and I was like that's properly ominous. Hopefully it's not overshadow or anything too serious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that kind of reminded me of like characters from other books, right, that had just have this like thing about them where they're just really lucky for whatever reason, which is interesting because they they didn't really bring that up about him in the movies at all and so far, even in just this initial meeting, he does feel different to me than he does in the movies. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2:I do, I do and I do know. I know a few folks who I think Faramir was their least favorite part of the Peter Jackson interpretation. I've heard some things for some folks that, for example, Faramir was one of their favorite book characters and they felt that Peter Jackson did him dirty.
Speaker 1:Yeah, having been reminded of him, I wouldn't say that that's wrong. You know now that I you know because, again, it's been 20 years. Of course I've been corrupted by the movies, because I've watched them so many times. I had forgotten about all that Faramir can be, which we'll talk about further, but like, yeah, he's a different character in the book than the movie.
Speaker 2:So I'll be interested because I can honestly say Faramir, I kind of nothinged him in the movies, you know what I mean. Yeah, and maybe that's the crux of the you did him dirty was that he was kind of underplayed, definitely.
Speaker 1:But we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. One thing that stuck to me from this initial meeting was when they're trying to figure out what the hobbits are, they're like they can't be elves. Elves are supposed to be wondrous, fair to look upon and sam's like really basically I can hear you.
Speaker 1:I'm standing right here it stung a little, I felt. I felt that on behalf of the hobbits, like why you gotta come for me, like that. I mean, is it true? Sure, absolutely. But you don't have to say it like sad, um, okay, so. So sam and frodo witness after they meet the men uh, this is fair. Mirror leaves mab lung and damn rod with frodo and sam while the rest of his men go to fight some men from the south who were coming through that area and Sam and Frodo witness for the first time a battle of men against men, something they do not like one bit. An enemy falls near them and Sam wonders what his name was, where he came from and if he was really evil at heart or what lies or threats got him to go on the march when he might have preferred to stay home in peace. Now I feel like this little passage somewhat redeems Tolkien's othering of the bad guys by giving them dark skin and hair and, in previous descriptions, slanted eyes. Although that might have been the orcs, the slanted eyes.
Speaker 2:That was a lot of thinking of it, but still the orcs are classified as evil was a lot of thinking of it, um, but still, the orcs are classified as evil. Right, right, right anyways but.
Speaker 1:But as far as like the dark skin and stuff he's suggesting, these people aren't in fact evil, at least that's the suggestion that I'm getting. Even if they're different, they're just products of their circumstances and the influences around them, probably like the people Tolkien himself fought against in World War I. That's my reading. Did you read anything into these thoughts Sam was having?
Speaker 2:I did, but I didn't go at it from that angle. But I do think that that's highly relatable, and I do, even though we know and have covered multiple times that he doesn't believe in allegory. I could absolutely see the parallels between. You're an enlisted man fighting another enlisted man who is literally following orders. You know, it's not even necessarily that that's your belief structure.
Speaker 2:You are doing as you're told Um and so I do feel that that comes from a Brothers in Arms perspective and, like I said, hadn't really thought of it, but I do like your point that it does humanize them more. So hopefully that helps on that count a little bit. I was looking at it from. Is this the first time that Sam is seeing a creature he finds sympathetic dying immediately in front of him? So and that like, I can work through it a little bit. But so they were attacked by just orcs, or orcs and men at the end of the fellowship.
Speaker 2:I thought it was just orcs, or orcs and men at the end of the fellowship. I thought it was just orcs, so I'm wondering if this is the first time he's seeing a sympathetic character. You know tabling the problems with the perceptions on the orc. Yeah, you know, a human is a human and he's made friends with humans. Um and so for him to see a man and perceive him as a man and realize and there's there's a really cool word for that when you look at a person and you realize in that moment that they have an entire lived experience thank you, you're like there's a fancy word for it.
Speaker 1:I should have looked it up. I should know. I love that word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sonder, it's a great word, um, and so I thought that that, and also, again, a really relatable thing, where something happens in front of you and makes you realize that that person has a whole experience that you know nothing about, and it just suddenly ended in front of you. Yeah, it was was uh, that's where I went in my mind on that journey no, I think that's definitely a part of it.
Speaker 1:It was, um, this didn't really come up in the movies, right, like they did the little raid on the southerners, but it wasn't. Sam didn't have any sort of existential moment in there, it just he was excited about the elephants and the bad guys died and that was that. Uh, this, this painted it in much more gray tones than the movie paints, because the movie is very black and white. Bad guys, good guys, right, yeah, um, this made you. It makes you think. You know, if you take a second, uh, not everyone who's engaging in stuff like this wars, whatever would do it if they were given the choice, right they would.
Speaker 1:Uh, they wouldn't want to hurt other people, they would just want to stay home in peace. Uh, so it's kind of a it's I don't know it's. Tolkien doesn't like allegory, but I think he was like no, this is something we should think about whenever we're engaging in any sort of conflict.
Speaker 2:Or even just subconsciously processing that part of the experience. You know, you don't ever know what brought the other person to their side of the engagement. They could just have done it so that there was food on the table. You just never know. And you can go your whole life, you know, just having friends and family members who are soldiers, you know you can go your whole life and you'll never get that answer. You won't. You'll never know. And that is, you know, know, a mind twist for sure yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, on top of that, sam also witnesses something less disturbing, far more exciting in all the fonts. So we find out, thanks to the narrators, that these things are way bigger than elephants, uh, that, and they're that are sorry, than the oliphants that are still on middle earth. Elephants, um, and just like massive, massive things, but they're clearly just gigantic elephants. How happy for sam were you that he got to see one ridiculous, just as hyped when he met the elves.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, like just the same level of uh squee of, just yay, he got it, um, and nobody died you know, like, because these things sound humongous and if they were coming right at you it sounds like it could be pretty treacherous.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it seemed like it was a pretty close call. There was like a stray one that just kind of like veered off into the countryside and was never heard from again. That was pretty funny. Like who knows what happened to him. He's just off somewhere, um, yeah, so the sam sees an oliphant and then settles in for a nap. Mission accomplished, basically, I guess I told the guards that they're free to continue on without them once faramir gets back. Uh, I personally love that. He doesn't think he's a captive, despite the circumstances. He's like you guys go ahead. Like don't wake me up, I'll be fine. Um, but, and that's it for the chapter. Any final thoughts about that one?
Speaker 2:I had a couple, so at the start of the chapter I had a little bit of literary umami and to your point.
Speaker 2:It was a pretty landscape, not yucky landscape. Yep, uh, describing athelion, which is the part of the countryside that they're in, uh, it is described as open to the southern airs and the moist winds from the sea far away. Many great trees grew there, planted long ago, falling into untended age amid a riot of careless descendants. And I just was like it's just such a great description. Yeah, you know, a bunch of old trees surrounded by younger trees, but a riot of careless descendants. Just Perfect, perfection, so good. Yes, chef kiss.
Speaker 1:A bunch of old trees surrounded by younger trees, but a riot of careless descendants. Just Perfect, perfection, so good. Yes, chef kiss.
Speaker 2:And then the fact that it, the narrator, takes the time to point out that Sam is a good cook, even by Hobbit reckoning, I was like, heck, yeah, he is. So I got a good little belly chuckle out of that, because of course he is.
Speaker 1:Well, and when he's giving Gollum the instructions of like, go get this, go get that, don't bother looking for potatoes, they're not in season. Like he also flexed his gardener muscles a little bit, right, because he knew what would be in season, what wouldn't be in season. So yeah, good cook, good gardener, he's got it all, basically.
Speaker 2:And I do think that that's a good segue into. I feel like this is a good chapter that's relatively low action but does point out Sam has definitely gotten sassier. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's really easy to sit here and compliment Frodo really kind of coming into himself, aragorn feeling his oats, all of those things. This is a really good time to point out that Sam has also come into his own quite a bit and has opinions and gives them and enlists Gollum for chores. Yes, you know, like he never would have done that Tells the guards that you know you can just leave us behind, don't? Worry about us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll be fine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that it's a great coming into his own power moment, so I just thought I'd take a timeout and point that out.
Speaker 1:Definitely worthy pointing out.
Speaker 2:Okay, and that's all that I had for chapter four.
Speaker 1:All righty, book four, chapter five, the Window on the West. Faramir grills Frodo about Isildur's bane which, if you'll recall, he had the same kind of dream vision, whatever that Boromir had, that had the rhyme that included Isildur's bane and the halflings um and. And he also grills him about boromir. And while frodo resists giving any details about the ring, he's shocked to learn from faramir that boromir had passed boromir's funeral boat, had made its way to faramir near osgiliath and silently floated past him toward the sea. The way it was described, glowing with a pale light boat, almost filled with water, made it almost seem to me like a vision rather than the real thing. Do you think this was really Boromir?
Speaker 2:I do. I had chalked it up to the same inherent magical, up to the same inherent magical, uh, imbuement, like we saw, with the rope into the elvish boats also. I caught myself wondering, because in my mind galadriel is quite an all-powerful being in her own right. I'm like, is there any chance that she's aware? And because, even by Faramir's reckoning, there shouldn't be a path, reasonable path, from where that happened to where Faramir saw it that the boat would still be holding water and all that I mean over Rauros, if nothing else like a giant waterfall.
Speaker 1:Yes, but yeah, over Rauros, if nothing else Like a giant waterfall.
Speaker 2:So I couldn't help but think that there's some natural magic that was imbued into the boats because they are of elvish build, and then I do kind of just sit in the back going. Maybe Galadriel gave it just a little oomph, you know, with whatever her super cool powers are, to make sure that it makes it to faramir um, and then faramir is mentioning.
Speaker 2:You know, tidings of death have many wings. Nate oft brings news to near kendred to said boromir was my brother. You know just that. Another one of those aragorn gets a lot of those moments. This is another another person who is so well spoken that it just kind of jumped off the page at me beautifully said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, honestly, the way it was described and frodo's um like skeptic skepticism about it, made me think twice. Right, because I I thought it was just boromir had made its way. He made his way down the river, whatever, and then frodo was like I'm not sure that actually, you know that was actually there, but whether it was or not, boromir's cloven horn made its way back to gondor, solidifying his demise in their minds. But now I'm just I'm I kind of love your idea that, like it was the magic of the elves and the boat, kind of God, what in viewing, or what I like, kind of just embalming him there and carrying him the way that he needed to go. The you know, however fair of your set it right, like in order to send the tidings to his near kin. I now, now, I kind of prefer that, actually that it was him, and then he continued to the sea.
Speaker 2:Galadriel's had enough mention. Even though she's been such a small sliver, you know where she seems to be in the know to a certain extent. You know, didn't believe that Gandalf was actually dead, just couldn't see his fate and a few other things she knew to send out for them when they were in need. Just Galadriel seems to have a higher level understanding. She's living at a different elevation and so I just it suits my head, canon, that she gave it a little nudge suits my head canon that she gave it a little nudge.
Speaker 1:I love that actually. Um. So in their conversations frodo sorry. Faramir decides he more or less trusts frodo and notes an elvish air about him. Let's remember that frodo was named elf friend. Um faramir's still not quite sure what to do about him, though, so decides to bring the two along with his company for the time being, when they have a little bit more privacy. He apologizes for discussing openly that what should probably remain a secret is Sildur's vein. He's got some pretty strong theories about what it might be and some pretty strong words about not wanting it for himself.
Speaker 2:How are you feeling about Faramir after this more private? Conversation.
Speaker 2:I want to believe so he's saying the right things. He's not the first person to say the right things, but I very much want to believe the thing that I had at this point. The Faramir-Frodo interaction back and forth was tight. It was very good to read. They were very well matched.
Speaker 2:At no point even though Faramir admits that he was kind of coming at him hard I felt like Frodo really did a great job holding his own. The whole interaction was fantastic, filled with tension, but didn't feel unbalanced. So what I walked out of, at least to this part, was I was like he's very, very well informed, even for somebody who functions essentially as a prince. Yeah, you know, he knew a heck of a lot more than boromir did, for sure, and boromir, by my understanding, at least to this point, is a very favored child. Yeah, you know, faramir reads very much as a second son, so to like I said to this point, based on what I know so far. So he seems remarkably well informed compared to his brother yeah, he's uh, you know, and he's putting it together Like he's got.
Speaker 2:he's got wheels turning mid conversation.
Speaker 1:As a second child, I am happy to claim Faramir.
Speaker 2:Let me just put it that way, like yeah, I don't mean it as slander, but I do. You know, in these patriarchal societies being a second son comes with a certain reputation and usually not as much access as favored first sons.
Speaker 1:It's kind of just implied yeah, yeah, but it does seem like he has taken his lack of favor and, uh, kind of flown beneath the radar and pursued his own you know information and has kind of hit really close to the actual mark, which is great. And part of that, if I remember, he mentions what did they call Gandalf? There was a word for it.
Speaker 2:Mithrandiel.
Speaker 1:No, but it was like the one the Grey Pilgrim, the Grey Pilgrim.
Speaker 2:I love that. Definitely we've seen in writing before. I'd have to go back through my highlights and find it, but it stood out because I was like we've heard him called that before. I just can't remember by who. It might have been galadriel, but I'm not 100 sure. Um, but it exists in my highlights somewhere.
Speaker 1:Okay all right. Well it, I nothinged it the first time and this time I was like, oh, faramir, like, yeah, admires gandalf, I guess. So, which is good. And he, he seems to admire the elves, and so there's just a lot of things about faramir this whole time that I was like, ah yes, like I do want to believe you, you like everything you're saying is the right thing, which, of course, like should get my guard up because you know silver tongues like look at saruman, they're not always the best thing, but he just seems so sincere, even even like this far in um. So frodo and sam eventually have to get blindfolded, as the location faramir was taking them was secret. When they get there, they are met with a beautiful sight at the entrance. A thin waterfall is what I gathered. It was of water reflecting beautiful colors in the sunset. Have you seen a waterfall do this before?
Speaker 2:No, I've actually never seen a waterfall in person. It makes me want to though what? That's not true. I've seen one. I've seen one in New Hampshire, yeah, but it wasn't like that. They're shorter. We don't have anything that tall around here.
Speaker 1:That is wild Around there.
Speaker 1:I don't know where I am anymore you gotta uh, so like, pro, tip, um, as somebody who loves to hike, like, there are pros and cons for music, for using the all trails app, but one of the pros is that you can put things that you're looking for and you can and like in the you know when you're searching for a trail that you're going to hike on, and one of the things you can do is search for a trail with a waterfall. So do that, do that. There's beautiful waterfalls in Rocky Mountain National Park. If you get out to Colorado, I have seen the rainbow effect in Iceland.
Speaker 1:There are tons of waterfalls, just absolutely stunning waterfalls in iceland, and I think the big um, there's a big waterfall at yosemite, and I'm pretty sure it does it too at a certain time of the day, and so like, of course, all the instagrammers are there like for that particular moment. Sure, um, and I'm I like hesitate to believe that's where tolkien got the idea from, but that one is like that, one's like famous now, at the very least. Um, I'm sure there's something like that where he's from too, but yeah, I would, I would kind of seek out some waterfalls, man so we've already earmarked a few uh state parks in ohio I I'm definitely a state park girly.
Speaker 2:I do like to hike. I do have to do lower impact hikes than I used to. Yeah hiking all trails will help you search for that too, like yes, you know, uh, so I will definitely look into that.
Speaker 1:Thank you you should, you're welcome um, anyways, yeah, big fan of whenever waterfalls have rainbows is what I'm saying, basically. Um, and once they got into this little stronghold, one scout reported having seen a small dark creature swiftly climbing a tree, which sam immediately recognized as gollum. He also thought he saw gollum following them previously but didn't say anything to the guards, thinking it would be better if no one had to think of him. Would you have done the same?
Speaker 2:no, I would have called it out. I felt like that was a little out of character. Well, I don't know, because again he's just so sour on gollum, yeah, um, so I guess I can't really be surprised. But I was like, why are you, why wouldn't you say something?
Speaker 1:with a sour on gollum that he is, I would. I would have expected him to snitch, yes, but the reasoning that he gave basically just like I don't ever want to think of him, why would I want somebody else to have to also made sense, but at the same time, like gollum's still out there, like you know, like you're basically letting him be free by doing what you're doing, which is not very sad also.
Speaker 1:You get the respite you know have the moments without him true, so it could really go either way, whether it was in character or out of character. I was surprised because I wouldn't have done it that way, but I get why he did it the way he did it it was just kind of weird.
Speaker 1:yeah, um, but we know that golem is following them. More or less is the moral of that story. So Faramir and his men, along with Frodo and Sam, sat down for a meal together, but before they ate they all turned to the west for a moment of silence. They looked to Numenor, that was, and beyond, to Elvenholm, that is, and to that which is an elven home and will ever be. This, to me, had extreme religion vibes. How did it hit for you? Confusing?
Speaker 2:Okay, you, I, I think I wrote in my notes like where, where is Elvenholm? Like, just okay, I think that that's the first time that I'm introduced to that concept of Elvenholm. I can, I, I'm kind of left implying that perhaps it is the mythical place that the elves migrated from and potentially are migrating back to, but I don't actually know that. Um and why. Why do the children of men care so much about elven home?
Speaker 1:but it's a good point, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So to me, the moment I heard it, I thought first of all this feels like obscure references that somebody who's casually reading would have no concept of which now Can confirm. But so, like in Catholicism reminder that Tolkien was Catholic there is a prayer that ends as it was, was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. So, like the like and will ever be and now and ever shall be. It just felt like almost heavenly, like afterlife or God adjacent to me, which I like. I know that the men of Gondor descended from Numenoreans and so I can see that they're like attached to them and they there's. You know there's some relationship there with elves, but again it is very much like why? Where did this come from?
Speaker 2:Nobody else is doing this. It's done with such gravitas Like there's clear emphasis placed on it, just no real context to speak of. Just we feel so strongly about this that we're going to stop. It's like somebody breaking out into prayer before Thanksgiving dinner at a house where you've never heard a prayer given before, like that's exactly the turkey already in your mouth. Then you're like, oh, I'm so, I'm so sorry, and you're just casually putting your fork down. That's exactly it feels like that. Yeah're just casually putting your fork down.
Speaker 1:That's exactly it feels like that, yeah, then that's how it hit me. Here I am reading the book, just like what? Like it's a pre pre meal prayer. Okay, that's a first, but okay, um, great, yeah, cool, uh, anyway. So, speaking of numenor, we get a little history of men from faramir. After the meal he seemed to have no real fondness for, like pure numenoreans, who fell into evils and folly and seemed more obsessed with death and the past than life. And then, after that, came the stewards, who I guess I gather are more of like not just pure Numenor people, and they did better for themselves forming an alliance with men from the north, the Rohirrim, who they allied with in battle and ultimately ceded some land to which became Rohan. So from all this history, did anything stand out to you?
Speaker 2:all this history, did anything stand out to you um the fact that there was an unofficial kind of caste system aside like they were classifying high, middle and low classes of men. Um, so that that was kind of strange and it all seemed to be related to their origin, you know. So the new minorians were of a higher class.
Speaker 1:Yep, based on these entirely arbitrary standings from the people who descend from new minorians.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like we're the, bestest and there ain't nothing you can say about it. Yeah, but that's fine, um, so that stuck out to me also talking. Talking about the Numenoreans, there was a comment made in there about how they hungered after endless life unchanging, which apparently they had left behind, and I just wrote what so kind of like Elvenholm right, kind of like our prayer pause, just were they immortal? Are they zombies? What are what Were they?
Speaker 2:immortal. Are they zombies? What are you saying? Were they zombies? What Are there zombies in Lord of the Rings?
Speaker 1:I mean, we did read about the Barrow.
Speaker 2:Wives no spoilers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, true, we did no spoilers. That wasn't the Hobbit We've been there.
Speaker 2:That wasn't the Hobbit.
Speaker 1:But they've done that. And also the kind of sorry no, it's okay. And the nazgul too yes, they're giving zombie they are um.
Speaker 2:They can respawn at any save point right, I do say.
Speaker 1:I will say, though, that, like that's literally the note that I took was they think of themselves as the high or men of the west because of their affiliation with Numenoreans and the Men of Rohan as Middlemen, or of the Twilight gag. First of all, I don't love that. But then Faramir admitted that Gondor had more or less fallen in with the Middlemen. They had lost their luster which I loved.
Speaker 2:So that's when it got icky for me. So I was the opposite. I was like, okay, high, middle, twilight. Okay, I'm going to ride it out and see what happens. Because the way that he phrased it, I think was we have fallen to the class of middle, or fallen to the class of Rohirrim, or the way that it was phrased indicated that he felt that it was a decline in stature. And that was where I was like, Ooh, okay, I guess it was really not any better than it sounded.
Speaker 1:I read it, as I'm not putting us on a pedestal anymore, cause, like the way he looked at the Numenoreans in the first place was like these guys weren't all they were cracked up to be. They fell into evil. They were not as wise they didn't care about.
Speaker 2:the present day. I'm not going to put us on a pedestal anymore, but we used to be on a pedestal. Yeah, I feel like we're two parts of the same sentence.
Speaker 1:Maybe, but I don't think he thinks that they were worthy of being on a pedestal. Is what I'm saying. And yeah, um, he does. He does mention to your, to your point, he does mention that like part of being a middleman is valuing, like battles and fighting and all of that stuff. Because he says, like boromir embodies that side of gondor, slash rohan, you know, or he did embody it, you know, the greater than any other man in his generation or whatever, but Faramir didn't seem to think that that, like the battles and stuff, was the greatest thing either. So I don't know, I think to me I like it when somebody isn't holding themselves above others, even if the way they phrase it is yeah, we've actually come down a notch from where we used to be. I still appreciated it because he just felt like he was more down to earth and not like all high and mighty, like more kind of.
Speaker 2:I agree, he does not. He does not come across that way. It was just oh, I was kind of hoping that, that that you were going to redeem it there at the end, but no, it really was as classist as it sounded okay. Okay, but I'm not holding his feet to the fire over it, I'm just that's. That's how that set with me.
Speaker 1:That's fair, um I like how he, um he, he really clearly knows boromir, you know, which makes sense because they were brothers. But when he mentions the uh, the stewards, and how they would never become kings, and how that really dissatisfied Boromir, you know, which makes sense because they were brothers. But when he mentions the stewards and how they would never become kings and how that really dissatisfied Boromir, like how long do we have to be stewards until we can be kings? Boromir and Faramir are just two very different dudes. I think Faramir happy to not be a king or whatever, or be a prince, just be the second son of a steward. Boromir wasn't that way.
Speaker 2:No From the get-go. I think that it would show. I think that if you have somebody who is smart and perceptive, then they would be able to see seeds of that in their childhood. So it just spoke to Faramir being very perceptive.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So after Faramir took his turn talking about men and their history, Sam decided to chime in and got pretty worked up about the elves and Galadriel, and he ended up running his mouth about Boromir and the ring. How do you feel about how this went down?
Speaker 2:I feel that it was a matter of time. I feel bad for Sam because if it were me and I had let it slip, I would feel like absolute garbage, but I feel like it was going to happen one way or the other and it might as well happen with sam, a little tipsy, a little jazzed up about the elves his sass. His sass got ahead of him and boy. Is that relatable?
Speaker 1:true, true. So in this, in this exchange, um, I promised another quote that I use all the time, or at least adopt my own purposes, and in this case it was a chance for faramir, captain of gondor, to show his quality. So like replace faramir with any applicable name, highly usable phrase. So you're about to give your cat medicine a chance for agni, captain of fluffiness, to show his quality.
Speaker 1:You're about to shoot the final shot in a game of horse, a chance for critter, captain of basketball, to show her quality. I use that too much. It's because a lot of people don't even know what the hell I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:Right, but it doesn't matter my jokes just for you is okay, because I do it all the time yeah, I got told by a basketball team mate of mine in high school coinc coincidentally that I talked different. It was like because I say stuff like this, right, who says a chance for Critter, captain of basketball, to show her quality? No one. No one talks, especially in high school because they're worried about people thinking they're weird. Weird, I was not worried, or I I didn't know enough to be worried.
Speaker 2:I was walking around quoting shakespeare, so okay that's fair, all right.
Speaker 1:So two different types of yes, but same vibes, but very niche interests.
Speaker 2:I was passing notes written in uh runes and I was quoting shakespeare so perfect so we, we all have our thing.
Speaker 1:Um, but that is one of my one of another one of my quotes yeah, um. So faramir did show his quality, though standing by his earlier statement not if I found it on the highway would I take it. So still, he's not. He's not taking the ring, he's trying to help. So, for me, this man is getting up there with Aragorn in the dream in his category. Personally, how are you feeling about him right now?
Speaker 2:This was all very positive, right up to him saying I don't even want to see it. I don't even. And I just was like I have to take it. He made a comment earlier in the chapter about I would not snare even an orc with a falsehood and I was like, ok, well, we'll wait and see.
Speaker 2:And here we are, and here we are. And so by the end of the chapter he has, in fact, completely won me over. Ok, he seems really legit. He seems to really know his brother, including his flaws. And also, as he's talking about his brother, I thought that it was important to point out that he's pointing out his brother's flaws for lack of a better word without Boromir bashing. You know what I mean, like in a real way, as somebody who grew up with you would know you, without it being malicious. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:It's just how it was, mm-hmm, like that's who. He was Not a bad thing, he was devoted to his people. He was a great warrior, yeah. So one example of his dreaminess Frodo caught a swaying Frodo and carried him to bed, tucked him in and then he exchanged compliments with sam, calling him master, sam, wise master, like you know how many times sam has called frodo bastard and it's driven us insane. Now sam's the master and I love that. Um, sam, in return, tells him that he has the air of wizards about him, which I agree because he's giving wisdom. Like, if I had to use one word to describe faramir, I think I'd use, I would just say wise um, personally. So yeah, big fan, huge fan of faramir by the end of this exchange. Um, so that's it for this chapter. Do you have any thoughts before we pick an mvp?
Speaker 2:uh, during sam'suff up, as he's ramping up, he makes an offhand comment about. It strikes me that folks that take their peril with them into Lorien like just one more kind of plug for Lorien and Galadriel and it didn't really pertain to the chapter but I loved to see it.
Speaker 1:He's going to defend Galadriel until the day he dies. He's up there with Gimli. He just loves the elves.
Speaker 2:So I found it to be super adorable and so I wanted to call it out, but I think that's it from this chapter.
Speaker 1:Alright. So we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music Jessica. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Speaker 2:Can I respectfully request that you go first for?
Speaker 1:once, absolutely. I have no hesitation. I choose Faramir, like by a million. He is an absolute dreamboat and like he god, he was trying to do his best. Uh, by frodo and sam. He mentions that he could literally I think he says he could literally be sentenced to death for, like, allowing them to be there and not taking them straight to gondor. Right, but he wants to do the right thing instead of the thing the law says he needs to do. Right, it was something like that that resonated with me so hard. Um, and then, when it comes down to it, he well, before he even found out what is the elder's bane was, he basically reasoned it out. Right, it was something from back then, um, it can be used whatever. Somebody found it, the hobbits have it now. You're on a mission about it. Like he had all of like, he's just a little detective, um, and and then he found out what it actually was, didn't even ask to see it, no questions asked. I'm gonna, other than, where are you going? I'd like to help you just he is he.
Speaker 1:Peter jackson did him dirty. He is. Yeah, he is an excellent human being, like the pinnacle of men here, right up there with aragorn and uh, and yeah, I love to see it. Big fan of faramir from the sequence. What about you?
Speaker 2:so it really did help me to let you go first. So I was torn between Frodo and Faramir and I'm going to pick Frodo, not because you picked Faramir, but your decisiveness, just for whatever reason, helped me lock in. I feel like I have to give it up for Frodo in this read because he is doing the deed. It is not glorious or glamorous or anything related. It's not adventurous, it's not fun, it's none of those things, and it is abundantly clear at this point in their travel that it's not. And he is doing the things. He is wrestling with himself. He is keeping an eye on Gollum, trying to find the best path forward, trying to keep an eye on Sam in his own way. And just the way that he met Faramir head to head, did not flinch, did not back down, did not lie. There was a part where he said I did not lie to you and I told you all of the truth that I felt that I could, and I was like heck, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I really my heart is with Frodo.
Speaker 1:this read yeah, it's a strong choice for sure, without a doubt. I don't know, faramir just like, was like a beacon of light for me, but I totally get the Frodo choice, as always. Those of you listening, if you want to weigh in on the MVP, feel free to tweet us or let us know in the comments on YouTube, or get into the Discord. Let us know who your personal MVP is, because I love hearing your all's takes, even if they're not the same as mine. I promise it doesn't upset me at all.
Speaker 2:So that's it for us tonight. We would ask you for next week to please read book four, chapters six through eight. We both want to say thank you so much for tuning in to episode six of season three of but Are there Dragons Brought to you by your hosts, jessica Sadai and critter XD. Please don't forget to follow us at butter their dragons on YouTube, instagram and Tik TOK and. But dragons just one T on X, but dragons pod.
Speaker 2:I do that every time Dragons pod. Just one T on X. You can also find us on social media as critter XD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We are going to continue to workshop new catchphrases through season three, so let us know, on social media or in the discord, how you feel about this one. Farewell, dear listener. We must each go swiftly on the ways appointed to us. Bye.