But Are There Dragons Podcast
Welcome to But Are There Dragons, a podcast where two fantasy-loving friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and talk about it. We've already made our way through The Hobbit, LOTR, the Empyrean Series, Project Hail Mary, and we're currently working our way through Dungeon Crawler Carl!
But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 7: The One with Lies of Omission, Minas Morgul, & Many Stairs!
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Join Kritter and Jessica in their penultimate episode for this season! Here they cover book 4, chapters 6 through 8. Did Frodo lie to Smeagol? Did you know about Minas Morgul? How many stairs are there, geez? They discuss these questions and more!
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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Book Discussion
JessicaWelcome to , but Are there Dragons ? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time .
KritterI'm your host , critter , and I'm your host , jess , and we're continuing this adventure with the Two Towers by JRR Tolkien , with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran .
JessicaAnd me as a Lord of the Rings first timer In this our seventh episode of season three .
KritterWe're going to discuss book four , chapters six through eight . We are getting so close to the end . Before we dive in , though , jessica , what's new with you ?
Jessicato the end . Before we dive in , though , jessica , what's new with you ? You know , just getting ready for summer and all that that entails . There's lots of big plans this month , so just making sure all my I's are dotted and T's are crossed for those events , how about you ?
KritterI mean same , yep , I have got a big month ahead of me . Um , june , it's like december is one of the biggest months for me because it's like , you know , birthday , my brother's birthday , christmas , obviously it's . You know , it's a fun big month . June is the same way . Uh , mr critter's birthday is this month . My wedding anniversary is this month . Usually we're traveling , and the same is going to be true this month . Uh , father's Day , and it's , yeah , it's , it's , it's . June is a great month . I love it . You know , back in the day when I was in school , it was the first full month of summer . My mom's a teacher , so she's living it up right now , you know , jealous of that . But June's a great month , one of my favorites , I'd say .
JessicaYeah , it's good stuff , for sure for sure .
KritterOkay , are you ready to get dive into these chapters ready ? It's a little bit of a shorter um as far as like page numbers go , so we'll see how , how long this episode is compared to our other ones . I know last episode we went on like a seven minute rant about cicadas . I don't plan to do that today . So we we'll see . I mean , but you can never rule it out with us . Yeah , anything can happen . But we're going to get started on the books , at least for now , with book four , chapter six , the Forbidden Pool . So Faramir wakes Frodo in the wee hours and leads him to an overlook above a picturesque pool . Sam , of course , wakes up , sensing Frodo's departure and follows them . Turns out Gollum is fishing in the pool of Henneth Anun an act worthy of a death sentence and it's up to Frodo to hold Faramir's men back from shooting him down on the spot . Any thoughts about this sequence ?
JessicaWhat I really love about this sequence and unfortunately it means my bias is showing is Frodo once again comes to Gollum's rescue , to at least a little degree . We're going to shoot him any reason why we shouldn't and Frodo tells them to stay their hand . Um , and again , I just I love what that says about frodo's character . Take whatever feel , however you want to feel , about smiegel , um , what that says about frodo's character , um , is hugely endearing yeah , I feel like once again we get sam wishing that he would have spoken up and had them shoot Gollum .
JessicaSo that wasn't great .
KritterFrodo definitely came out of this sequence looking better than Sam did , unfortunately . And then I thought it was really funny that Faramir he was just giving he was really interested in the tea about gollum , right like he , that he like he bore the ring once you know I'm just seeing him gasping like he actually bore the ring and that you know he's your guide , all these like facts he's just like what ? This is amazing . Um , obviously that maybe I made him more dramatic about it in my head , but the way he kept kind of exclaiming when he found out more information .
JessicaI mean , I don't think you did though , because he's like I really want to know how he came to carry your burden , but we won't . You know , I'm paraphrasing terribly , but we don't have time for that now but he wanted the deets he did , he's like , excuse me , the thing that you have is I mean , we're talking about the same thing , right ?
KritterHow did that ? They kept calling him like a black squirrel . He's been called that multiple times , so I guess he also in the books is described somewhat differently than he looks in the movies , right ? Because in the movies I'd give him like a flesh color or like a light gray , but every time they talk about him in the books it's like a black squirrel , you know . So I'm just wondering is he like really ? Is he like dark , you know , like a really shadow colored creature ? I don't know . It's interesting , or is it just because it's at night ? You know what I mean ? I don't know . I can't , I'm not sure I like how they made him look in the movies though the big , the gigantic eyes from being in the cave for so long and all that stuff . It works for me .
JessicaYeah , but if you apply that logic , if he were stuck in the caves for many , many years , his skin would be more washed out , looking Lighter , closer to translucent even could be a case made for it . Because no light exposure Exactly so , I think , unless he's just straight up dirty .
KritterYeah , that's a good . In my mind , almost every time somebody spots him from a distance that isn't familiar with him , it's at night , and so that's what I'm thinking is he's just like he's always in the shadows , just a dark figure .
KritterYeah , he's just a dark figure and so they assume he's , like you know , a black squirrel which they mentioned . I think you know they have those things in Mirkwood or whatever , which we saw in the Hobbit , so I thought that was kind of fun . Yeah , okay . So Faramir poses the option to Frodo Gollum must be captured or slain . Frodo Gollum must be captured or slain , and Frodo offers to go down to Gollum to convince him to return with him and notes that Faramir's men can slay him if he fails .
KritterI found that to be a really noble sentiment to protect Gollum of all things , and I assume you agree based on what you just said .
JessicaI did so this whole section and also , you know , before he even goes down to try and bring smiegel back up voluntarily , he talks about how gandalf wouldn't have wanted you to slay him either for this and other reasons .
JessicaUm , so I , you know that stuck out . Um , I thought that it was , uh , I thought that you know it was about know my word is my bond , kind of thing . That's how that came across to me . The whole you can strike me down if I , if I don't come back with him is how I took that . Um , but I could almost feel Frodo second guessingguessing himself as he approaches him because ultimately he has to kind of betray Gollum in the conversation to uphold his word to Faramir . And so , as treacherous a creature as Gollum is , frodo never wanted to cross that line with him and that was the only way that he was going to be able to get him back up to faramir and the other men yeah , to his credit .
KritterI was like paying attention to this , right , because I remember him . I want to say it felt more like a lie in the movies and you will be able to confirm this , because you get to go watch , uh , the two towers this weekend , or obviously , whenever you're listening , she will have already watched the two towers because it'll be , um , shortly before this episode comes out . But , uh , you can confirm later that , uh , it does seem in the movies like he's like truly lying to him , but in the books he just , I think , neglects to mention that , along with sam that's up further on the path , there are also these men that Gollum doesn't know and that will be very suspicious of him . So my question is do you think the way he did this , like trust me , smeagol , let's go get Sam Smeagol and not mentioning the men , did he play that right ?
JessicaI think so I think he tried to do it with . He tried to minimize damage , right . He tried to tell as little of a lie as possible . So they were lies of omission , without a doubt , right ? Um , but and he did tell him you know uh , how did he word it that we will carry on , but we cannot right now . And he continues to urge him to trust him further .
JessicaSo I think that he was doing everything he could to keep his word to Faramir and , to you know , not break his , his word to Gollum either , which I personally believe nobody else would care if they lied to Gollum or if they were treacherous of his faith . So , again , just sterling character on the part of Frodo . I think that he cared when nobody else would have . I feel like lots of people treat Gollum as though he is not a sentient creature or a creature that you would have to keep your word to . So I think that he did . I think that it was very tight . It kind of like you're going to love this kind of like the riddles game . You walk a very razor thin line , but no confidences were broken . In my opinion , they were not . Yeah , so that's my honest take .
KritterSo he played it as well as he could .
JessicaAs close to the vest as he could , with as little damage as possible .
KritterHe walked the tightrope . Yeah , I tend to agree . Part of me thinks like man , I wish he could have been like now , just so you know there are other people here . But if you run away they're going to shoot you . So don't run away , right , that would be the one I don't think that would have worked . I know you think he would probably run away .
JessicaI think he would have run or he would have fought , like it . Just I could see that going so many ways that don't end in Smeagol doing what they want of him . I think that he did what he needed to do to get Smeagol to comply um for Smeagol's own good and tried to minimize how much lying he had to do in the process .
KritterThat's fair . So a question about Smeagol , although I feel like I've noticed that you call him Smeagol more and I call him Gollum more , which I think is funny . We're giving Frodo and Sam , in our opinion of Smeagol , slash Gollum . I see nothing wrong with this . Yeah , true , did you notice the ?
Jessicagreen light in golem's eyes when he realized he'd been made yes , so um , green lights flickering in his bulging eyes , and I wrote dang it critter so I'll show you . You can go in our shared drive and look . That's not even a lie , that's a hundred percent factual . Uh , so now all I notice is what color his eyes are , and I 100% think that when the bad golem is driving , his eyes are green and treacherous and scary . I can't not think it now .
KritterI am glad well , kind of glad that I alerted you to it . I do wonder if you would have eventually put two and two together there . Uh , alerted you to it . I do wonder if you would have eventually put two and two together there .
JessicaI'd like to think I would have , but sometimes you know , big , big things go whoosh and right by me and I don't notice . So I can't pretend otherwise .
JessicaYeah , I mean , yeah , it could easily just be like he's got weird eyes that could have been the explanation he is Go so happy one way or the other , angry in some way or sneaky and his green eyes led right into my second most quoted uh lord of the rings quote , which is wicked , tricksy , false I love the way andy circus does it yeah , that was uh um , all in caps in my outline , I'm like , oh yeah , no , this is a thing . Me and my kids say a lot oh , that's awesome .
KritterUm , so faramir informs gollum once obviously the men appear uh to him that the only reason he wasn't killed was because of frodo's protection . So you would think maybe that would help . And after gollum swears on the precious to never come back or lead anyone to the hideout , faramir puts Gollum into Frodo's care and then grants Frodo leave to freely roam in Gondor , except back to the hideout .
Faramir's Judgment and Farewell Gifts
KritterWere you surprised by Faramir's judgment here ?
JessicaI was a little and the way that he let him have free reign but with a doom like an agreement of a doom over their head , that he would need to go and present himself to the Lord and steward before he could return to that place , which sounded a lot like Rohan's policy , you know , presenting to the Lord of the land . So you know , it definitely leaves me feeling like Faramir might be taking uh , I don't want to say taking advantage , but exercising a little leniency here .
KritterYeah , definitely , that's a vibe I got for sure . Yeah so I do . I mean , I feel like in my mind right now , faramir can do no wrong . So like perfect judgment . I love it . It's interesting that I don't know if it was here or a little later on , but he basically says if Gollum is ever found without Frodo period in .
KritterGondor , or did he say even outside of Gondor , by the men of Gondor , you are dead Death sentence . I was just like that's pretty brutal , but Gollum did violate their most sacred laws by being so it wasn't the fish , it was the pool , and yeah , yeah right , so I get it . I mean , it's better than a death sentence immediately .
JessicaYou know that he carries out right away , yeah , so I did want to point out , you know , just for a little bit of that smiegel support , um fairmere puts him to the question and asks him what the destination is and , to his credit , smeagol does not give it up . Frodo winds up having to answer Faramir . So as I'm reading that , I realize how ridiculous it is , but I'm like he ain't no rat , he's not a snitch , he's got a lot of flaws , but he's not a snitch .
KritterHe's not a snitch . He's got a lot of flaws , but he's not a snitch , so that's really funny how things like that stay down to me . Yeah , you know any redeemable quality ?
Jessicayeah , you know later in the chapter , even frodo says he's not altogether wicked . Yeah , again it . The narrative appeals to me , right , because I don't believe that any person is wholly bad or wholly good , and so yeah .
KritterYeah , I don't think he's wholly bad either . I just think our sliding scales are in different places . I have no love for Gollum at all , but obviously I've been influenced by a lot of factors , so whatever . Okay . So when he finds out that Gollum intends to take Frodo to Cirith Ungol , a place of sleepless , malice rings of power dwelt after they were devoured and turned into living ghosts , so I can't say I recall the ringwraiths being described this way exactly before . Did you find ?
Jessicait interesting . Not only interesting , but shocking . So I was like so this tower not only was taken over by the enemy , it's taken over like it's the nazgul honeycomb hideout like this is yeah , this is , this is getting serious , um , and I honestly don't remember seeing anybody mention this tower in the movie . So I can't wait to go to the movies this weekend . But I don't remember any mention of all the Nazgul bunking together like roomies . I don't remember anything like that from the movies , so I am very interested . But it was also a really chilling description of them as well , additionally , like they were already super creepy , so I just amped that up .
KritterYeah , devoured and returned as go like okay , yeah , good description . Um , we talked about , didn't we talk about the fact that , uh , or last was it ? We said that lord of the rings doesn't have zombies or something , and they were like , well , kind of it kind of does , depending on your perspective .
KritterYeah , all right . So then Frodo asks where else he could go , you know , if not Cirith Ungol and if Faramir wanted him to take the ring to Gondor . And this is where Faramir varies wildly from the movies . He declines immediately , warns Frodo of Gollum sensing murder in him and ultimately wishes him well in his journey . And that's the end of the chapter . Any final thoughts about this last exchange or the chapter generally ?
JessicaJust permanently secures Faramir a gold star . Just , he really did live up to . You know , he walked the walk as well as talking the talk . So that was amazing . Yeah , and he's a far more interesting character . Even having a limited scope in the book . He's a far more interesting character than what I got out of him in the movies , which is just , you know , oh , you're the younger brother .
KritterAnd in Two Towers at least minor villain , until he gets redeemed Like . He does not make life easy for Frodo and Sam and makes several different decisions than he makes in the books , which I mean , you could paint that in that light .
JessicaYou know the way that he waylays them in Illithian , or whatever this section of Mordor is called . You know he definitely slows them down , but not without cause and and doesn't you know ?
Kritteryeah , arrest them per se , yeah I mean here like the reason he well part of the reason he takes them . He even says he's like these hills are like crawling with bad guys , so you , you're not going to get anywhere in the next , in the next little bit anyway . So I feel like this , more than anything , was like yet another brief respite , the little refuge , like rivendell and law forley and were before obviously much briefer um , and it really like helped them hit the reset button . Yeah , in my opinion . So he treated them well , start to finish , and I just love to see it yeah , so that's all I had for chapter six okay , book four , chapter seven journey to the crossroads .
KritterSo , speaking of the end with faramir , faramir bids farewell to frodo and sam . Supplementing their packs with extra provisions and gifting them stout staves made the fair tree lebrethon . They were a particularly fitting gift as virtue had been set upon them of finding and returning . So , as far as gifts go , not bad , or do you disagree ?
JessicaNo , I thought they were awesome .
KritterYeah , they're about to do some real hiking , real climbing . So the little you know , it's like he took him to rei and picked him out the best . Yeah having a good walking stick is always good yeah , um and uh . So frodo recognizes their value and the value of his time with faramir , noting that Elrond was right and that he'd meet friendship on his journey , secret and unlooked for . I kind of love that that like yeah , prophecy fulfilled , it's great .
KritterSo , as they're leaving , faramir orders Gollum blindfolded for the path away from the hideout , and Frodo asks that they all three be blindfolded to make it easier or more digestible for Gollum . Would you have done the same ? No , no , okay , wow .
JessicaI was not expecting that , so I am a control freak . So having to be blindfolded or a hood over my face , no , I'm very invested in your rehabilitation Smeagol , but not that invested .
KritterI love that . I was certain you would say that you would make the same choice , because it wasn't noble one .
JessicaI am all for making accommodations . You know what I mean . Like I okay doing things to make it feel more equitable , to help people hopefully feel a little less called out . I usually am all for that , but not when it pushes certain boundaries for me . I do have some boundaries , okay .
KritterAll right . Yeah , it was definitely a callback to whenever they were being led into Lothlory . And then Frodo even mentions the fact that Gimli majorly protested . But yeah , he just kind of he was like , yeah , I'm fine with that . So I think that was very it showed his leadership .
JessicaI think for sure he clearly had learned from , I guess , aragorn and a very sweet gesture , and we have no idea if Smeagol appreciated it or not , even but it was still a very sweet gesture .
KritterFor sure .
Dreams, Stress, and Crossroads
KritterSo the party branches off on their own and at one point , on a break , sam is the first to sleep and we get a glimpse of his dream . He's at bag end , so so tired , in the garden with a heavy pack weighing him down , and the garden is in shambles , weeds everywhere . He's looking for something and ultimately realizes it's his pipe . He wakes up and soon realizes he knows where his pipe is , but also that he can't use it because he doesn't have pipe weed . And he's hundreds of miles from Bag End . We've gotten these little dream sequences on occasion in the books . Did this one speak to you at all ?
JessicaAs somebody who's stressed dreams yes , did . It resonated with me . Um to that , to wake up from a dream and just have it . You know come rushing back to you , oh , but actually I'm here in situation x and it is so much worse , so much worse .
KritterI actually had a stress dream last night . Um fun , this , so unrelated to anything , but yeah , I had a dream the world was ending , like there was some , like there was some something coming , like some firestorm or something , and I , for some reason , was trying to develop a way to prevent the world from ending , rather than like living up my last day on earth or whatever and uh , and I never figured anything out .
KritterBut then some variable change and it , the world didn't end , and then I woke up . It was like you know . Obviously stress dreams usually end with the stress continuing , but it was , I feel like it was such a long dream that it ended up okay . Yeah , I don't know , it was bizarre . So , yeah , I too will occasionally have stress dreams . And let me tell you , I was like or do we have any bunkers we can hide in ? You know , all my alternatives were getting shot down by everyone , which is frustrating . So I can see how Sam would be like my God , my garden it's in shambles and I can't find what . Am I even looking for ? I don't know . So , poor guy , like it was definitely indicative of the Okay , cool , or you wake up and you're just still so mad Like you took the mad with you .
JessicaI've had definitely both and for him to just wake up and be like , well , that's not real . But the reality really sucks by comparison . It's worse somehow Makes me feel for our buddy Sam .
KritterI know Poor guy . I especially hate it whenever I'm in the middle of a stress stream and I wake up and I'm like , oh my gosh , thank god , and then I fall back asleep and it keeps going and I forget , it's a treat , it's the worst , um , anyways .
KritterSo yeah , I thought this was one . It also kind of reminds me that there I think I've talked about this before but there's this game called Valheim , where you're like explorers in like sort of like in a Norse mythology setting , because , you know , if it's storming outside , you can see Thor flying above you and stuff , but it's your , you can build that , you can craft , you and you're going to explore , and and whenever you go to sleep at night because like you can pass the night time by going to sleep it'll like pop a dream up , you know , and there's sometimes they're so random and you just read , you can read them , and it kind of reminds me of this one . It's like you're looking for something , but you don't know what you're looking for , you , and then you find it . You know , it's like there's these little like calm dream passages , and that's what this one kind of reminded me of .
KritterAnyways , so many tangents , but we're back , uh , the party then gets sent , sorry , the party then gets to the crossroads , and this was one time I did consult the map in the book just to kind of orient myself , because I'm , you know , it's like wait , okay , so mordor is east , osgiliath is south . What's north , not uh , what's west ? Not sure you know anyway , so I had to look it up . Did you do the same ?
Kritteruh , no , but I'm doing it now right , because I'm like okay , this is a four-way stop here . Where are all the directions headed ?
JessicaI will say I did look at some , because it did talk about how Osgiliath was to the west , I think Was it Because I could have sworn ?
Kritterwhen I looked at it , it was to the south . Now I have to look again . This is clearly a problem .
JessicaYou shouldn't believe me .
KritterOh , you know what it is to the west . Sorry , the word is like written over the path to the south , but the dot is on the path to the west . So , yeah , your girl needs to work on map reading . Um , but you're right , gilead is to the west .
JessicaI do believe in a previous episode I shared that I had a very poor map skills grade in third grade that I still haven't gotten over .
KritterYeah , and the north path , just it leads to , oh Henneth Anun , so that's where they were . And then the south path is just South Ithilien . There's nothing really of note down there , basically . So now we know .
JessicaBut with all of the talk about the crossroads . Definitely , as this chapter progresses , it gets just clearer and clearer that gollum is truly driving them yeah , it's like gotta get to the crossroads , gotta keep going , gotta keep going like yeah , it was really . It was quite intense . I was like , oh yeah , that's not light at all .
KritterIt's very heavy-handed and blatantly obvious that he is driving them forward , yeah , and that they're , and in frodo's clearly struggling definitely , um , yes , so at the crossroads , in a brief break from the covering darkness because it seems in this land it's very dark a lot of the time stormy Frodo noticed a broken statue of a king . It was headless but he caught sight of the head . Nearby , in the sunbeams , and despite being otherwise defaced , a plant of small white flowers created a crown upon its head and Frodo noted they cannot conquer forever before the sun was once again lost . And that is it for the chapter . Any final thoughts about that or anything else in the chapter ?
JessicaI had a couple , so I had there was talk of while they were going to going I think they were still on their way to the crossroads about them passing under a spiny thicket , like the thicket is so tall that the hobbits could fit under it . I thought that that was very , uh , descriptive . Um , and then it talks about there's a red glare that keeps getting mentioned , which , at this point again , based on my movie knowledge at least , I'm like I'm assuming that this is context clues throughout the chapter of the eye . So whenever they mentioned the red gleam , I'm like this is either a reflection of or an emanation of the eye and it must be relatively facing in that direction to be casting light .
KritterThe gaze of Sauron .
JessicaYes , I like it , I like that interpretation . And then the last , yes , the last thing that I had is that Frodo and Sam were having dialogue about Gollum having taken off again and Frodo defending him yet again . So Sam's mentioning how he's essentially useless . He's useless and he's done no good , nothing but serve his own purposes . And Frodo defends him saying you forget the marshes , and I hope nothing has happened to him . And again , I know I have bias , but at the same time , whenever he does this , I feel like there have been a couple of instances and there's another one next chapter , where Sam gets very absolute and black and white and Frodo goes oh , that's not exactly how that went down . And so , as opposed to it just being indulgence , maybe of Smeagol , he's going no , you , you missed something , you forgot something like stay even handed when you're talking about these things . And so , yeah , that stuck out to me .
KritterYou're clearly not subjective , or sorry ? You're clearly not objective . You're looking at this very subjectively with not the opposite of rose-colored glasses , so you got to think about the facts . Yeah , I appreciate Frodo for that very even-handed logical approach .
KritterAll right , so is that it for Chapter 7 ? That's it for 7 . Okay , last chapter of this reading , book four , chapter eight , the Stairs of Kirith Angol . So where the tower of Minas Ithil , the moon tower , glowed with the imprisoned light of the moon , the tower of Minas Morgul was paler indeed than the moon , ailing in some slow eclipse , the light of it wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay , a corpse light , a light that illuminated nothing . There were rotten meadows , or meads as they called them , and twisted statues .
JessicaSo this , this whole vibe , pretty foreboding , no yeah , it sounds like they've absolutely ruined it and turned it into a nightmare scape yeah , like , like I'm picturing you know it's , it's giving whenever the um mystery machine rolls up to a mansion .
KritterYou know eldritch fog . Yeah , oh yeah , like you know , you're playing arkham horror and the description of , like one of the places you're approaching it's got a green hue about it and whatever else like yeah , it definitely painted a picture , yeah , yeah .
KritterSo frodo is immediately heavily affected by this tower and proceeds zombie we've got more zombies proceed , zombie like , toward the bridge to the tower until sam and gollum stop him . Then , as they're retreating , he insists the ring is weighing too heavily on him and he needs a rest . So for me this was stressful and frustrating . Like frodo , you get what are you ? What are you doing ?
JessicaGet out of there . How did you take it ? I thought that it's crazy how sometimes the ring really weighs on him a lot , and so I was left to infer that the ring was weighing on him and acting on him because of the presence and the closeness to the Nazgul , the ringwraiths , yeah , and that the ring was actively trying to get him to go to the city to get caught . Like there's no two ways about it . Even the narrator confirms it the ring is actively trying to make him go to the city . You know that's mostly terrifying's .
KritterUh , it's like imparting . It's what it has a will right .
JessicaThat's , that's and it's imposing its will on him , right , which is horrifying , to say the least and then I had just made a note , not that way . Uh , which is a quote , and it's like when sam both sam and gollum agree , you know it's serious . They're like no , no , yeah , sam's like I , I agree with him . I actually agree with him this time .
KritterThis is a bad idea yeah , that , uh , you know , something is very important at that point . So some crazy stuff goes down at the tower Blue flames , lightning and an army issues forth with the lord of the nine riders who stabbed Frodo atop Weathertop at their head . He seems to be looking for something and Frodo has a real internal battle about busting out the ring , but he wins it by grasping the file of Galadriel for strength . How did you feel about the sequence and the callback to the file of Galadriel ? I think was this the first mention of it since it was gifted to them ?
JessicaYes , so even better than the rope right Like oh , even I forgot that this was in their bag of tricks and the fact that it helped break the sway of whatever was influencing him was incredible . And again , for all I know , was true and was there subtextually in the movies , but was so much better on the page .
KritterYeah , I think the file . The file is a bigger part of the books , I think , than it was in the movies .
JessicaThe file was very cool to read through this chapter , especially how it influenced how this all went down and how it helped Frodo break free of the ring's influence .
KritterYeah , and the way Galadrielriel described it whenever she gave it to them , right , may it be a light in dark places . And so often so far in this region of the world it's been described as like it's just always night here it's so dark it's so dark here , um , the , the weight of the ring on frodo , is this dark influence right ?
Kritterthe the black riders up ahead , all of this stuff is just like so horrifying and imposing and evil and , you know , metaphorically dark in some ways , but physically as well , and uh , and the fact that the it could be a light for him and help him overcome it , I thought was really great and I yeah , I I don't know that that's what he did in the movie . I don't know if the file was really part of that , which is funny because I've seen the movies so many times . I don't remember him clutching the file , though we'll know , let me know .
JessicaYeah , we'll know more next week .
KritterUm , all
Stair-Climbing and Literary Reflection
Kritterright . So after the army passed and sam roused frodo , they began to ascend the stairs , lots and lots of stairs . I got secondhand tired reading this . How about you ?
Jessicayeah , and I have vertigo issues . So every time you talk about them running their hands and the wall would just stop I'm like nope that's a nope .
KritterWell , yeah , and they describe the stairs as like more or less a ladder . So I'm over here just like , oh god , imagine , you know , because like there's nothing behind them , right , they're just climbing and I've , I've literally had seats high enough in a concert venue that I wouldn't stand up like I just sat .
JessicaUm , so the idea of doing that , you know , free range over a , a straight drop , is uh . Yeah , I was like that's very descriptive . It was very effective for me .
KritterGood job , yeah yeah , not a not a fun thing to consider . Um , so let's see what . Sam and Frodo take a break at the top of the stair before proceeding onward and have an absolutely lovely conversation . Like , let me tell you , I absolutely of this conversation because it's like one of the highlights , it's one of the most perfect examples of literary umami for me in the series that I remember . So please bear with us because I just love it so much and I want to do it now .
JessicaSo , jessica , and for the record , I agreed to it because I agree that it was an incredible scene to read , so I was willing to try and do this dramatic reading . Okay , great , I don't like anything here at all . Said Frodo , step or stone ?
Kritterbreath or bone , said Sam , and we shouldn't be here at all if we'd known more about it before we started . But I suppose it's often that way . The brave things in the old tales and songs , mr Frodo adventures as I used to call them , mr Frodo adventures as I used to call them I used to think that they were things the wonderful folk of the stories went out and looked for because they wanted them , because they were exciting and life was a bit dull , a kind of a sport , as you might say . But that's not the way of it .
KritterWith the tales that really mattered , or the ones that stay in the mind , folk seem to have been just landed in them . Usually their paths were laid that way , as you put it , but I expect they had lots of chances , like us , of turning back . Only they didn't . And if they had , we shouldn't know because they'd have been forgotten . We hear about those as just went on , and not all to a good end , mind you , at least not to what Fulkencite's story , and not outside it , call a good end , you know , coming home and finding things all right , though not quite the same like old Mr Bilbo . But those aren't always the best tales to hear , though they may be the best tales to get landed in , I wonder what sort of a tale we've fallen into ended in .
JessicaI wonder what sort of a tale we've fallen into . I wonder , said Frodo , but I don't know . And that's the way of a real tale . Take any one that you're fond of . You may know or guess what kind of a tale it is happy ending or sad ending but the people in it don't know and you don't want them to .
KritterNo , sir , of course not . Baron . Now , he never thought he was going to get that Silmaril from the Iron Crown and Thangor Drim , and yet he did . And that was a worse place and a blacker danger than ours . But that's a long tale , of course . And he goes past the happiness and into grief and beyond it . And the Silmaril went on and came to Yonendale and beyond it . And the Silmaril went on and came to Yonendale . And why , sir , I never thought of that before ? We've got , you've got , some of the light of it in that star glass and that lady gave you . Why think of it ? We're in the same tale . Still it's going on . Don't the great tales never end ?
JessicaNo , they never end as tales , but the people in them come and go when their parts ended . Our part will end later .
KritterOr sooner , and then we can have some rest and some sleep , said Sam . He laughed grimly . And I mean just that , mr Frodo . I mean plain , ordinary rest and sleep and waking up to a morning's work in the garden . I'm afraid that's all I'm hoping for all the time . All the big , important plans are not for my sort . Still , I wonder if we shall ever be put into songs or tales . We're in one , of course , but I mean put into words , you know , told by the fireside or read out of a great big book with red and black letters years and years afterwards . And people will say let's hear about Frodo and the Ring . And they'll say , yes , that's one of my favorite stories . Frodo was very brave , wasn't he Dad ? Yes , my boy the famousest of the hobbits , and that's saying a lot .
JessicaIt's saying a lot too much , said frodo , and he laughed , a long , clear laugh from his heart . Such a sound had not been heard in those places since sauron came to middle earth . To sam , suddenly , it seemed as if all the stones were listening and the tall rocks leaning over them , but frodo did not heed them . He laughed , laughed again . Why , sam ? He said . To hear you somehow makes me as merry as if the story was already written . But you've left out one of the chief characters , samwise the stout-hearted . I want to hear more about Sam , dad . Why didn't they put in more of his talk , dad ? That's what I like . It makes me laugh . And Frodo wouldn't have gotten far without Sam , would he Dad ?
KritterNow Mr Frodo said Sam , you shouldn't make fun , I was serious .
JessicaSo was I said Frodo , and so I am .
KritterI love that part so much .
JessicaI'm just going to say we did a really good job . Neither of us is crying .
KritterNot yet Take the win . I'm going to take the win . I don't know , my heart just like explodes whenever I read that passage every time . Yeah , I actually so much like I love the part . Also , it's presented differently , but in the Two Towers , sam has a speech that's very , very similar . The Two Towers Sam has a speech that's very , very similar and if you're watching on YouTube you can see . But I have this like illustrated version of the speech that he gives in the Two Towers that I got on Etsy and it's like the cutest thing ever . It's got like the different towers , it's got Sting , it's just . It's so cute because I love it so much , but it's interesting that it is . It's definitely abbreviated in the movies , but it's still incredibly inspirational and this just I don't know it demonstrates their love for each other . It's just this beautiful moment in such a dark place and I just one of my favorites , honestly one of my favorite things from from the Lord of the Rings books so far that that we've encountered .
JessicaYeah , it was . Uh , it was probably one of the uh most tender moments in my read . Yeah , it's right out there .
KritterI know I love it . I want to hear more about Sam . It kills me every time . Um , so , okay , we can move on . Uh , let us know in the comments or on the Discord if you appreciated it as much as we did , because , dang , I love it . So whenever they're hanging out there , sam reiterates his distrust of Gollum and predicts that if they get to the border , into Mordor oh , I kind of rhymed Gollum won't just let them go through without making some kind of trouble . Now I know we give Sam grief about his nastiness toward Gollum , but what he's saying rings a bit true , especially given Gollum's casiness about whether the path is guarded and that green light that keeps showing up in his eyes . So are you sympathizing with Sam anymore ? As we're approaching , this is all coming to a head , essentially .
JessicaI mean I am , but I think that Frodo gets it . So what I liked about this inner exchange is that Frodo says if he's false , he's false . Frodo has never said you're off base , that's not true . Blah , blah , blah , blah . He's just said this is the landscape , this is what we need to do . He's the means to an end .
Frodo's Reflections on Gollum's Character
JessicaAnd I had actually highlighted this whole passage because I thought that it was interesting to hear Frodo's take on Gollum's perspective , because for all that he defends him and looks out for him and is gentler with him than others , we don't really hear a lot of insight into what Frodo actually thinks is going on behind the scenes for Gollum . So he's like regarding Gollum , he says very likely he can't guess himself . And I don't think he's like regarding Gollum , he says very likely he can't guess himself . And I don't think he's got just one plain scheme in his muddled head . I think he really is , in part , trying to save the precious from the enemy as long as he can , for that would be the last disaster for himself too , if the enemy got it and in the other part , perhaps he's just biding his time and waiting on chance , which has been my perspective , this whole get like I . I think that he is very clever and that he's just waiting to see what kind of opportunity shakes loose .
JessicaBut to frodo's point . You know nobody , nobody . Frodo and sam , frodo and gollum . Neither of them want the ring in the enemy's hand yeah .
KritterSo the enemy of my enemy yeah , it's my friend , kind of it's real things , yeah , yeah , okay . So regardless of how nasty sam thinks gollum is , we get another side of him the next time we see him . So when he , frodo and Sam have both fallen asleep , frodo's head cradled in Sam's lap in a very tender sort of a pose , gollum looks at them and the gleam fades from his eyes , leaving them old and gray . He appears to be engaging in some interior debate , looking up towards the past . Then he reaches out and touches Frodo's knee and for a fleeting moment , could one of the sleepers have seen him ? They would have thought that they beheld an old , weary hobbit , shrunken by the years that had carried him far beyond his time , beyond friends and kin and the fields and streams of youth . An old , starved , pitiable thing . And then Sam wakes up and accuses him of sneaking . This fleeting moment passes and the green light in Gollum's eyes returns . So do you think Smeagol almost took over there ? I do .
JessicaHonestly I do . I think that we don't get a lot of times where Frodo is doing a charitable thing and we don't a lot of times get Gollum's perspective on that . But I wouldn't assume that means that Gollum isn't noticing what's happening , and even in his dialogue he talks about nice master , although sometimes it is very sarcastic .
JessicaBut he does talk about nice master versus the rude little hobbit meaning sam . So he does differentiate between the different types of treatment that he's getting um , and I do . I do believe that this was a very close moment where smiegel almost broke through um and , unfortunately , sam's negativity .
KritterYou know , sam's snap judgment based on all that has happened pushes him firmly back into stinker land , into Gollum land particularly um tough passage for tolkien to write , like it was kind of an emotional thing for him just because it was . It was smiegel on the brink right . That's kind of what it felt , like he was at a crossroads and I whether it was what sam said or inevitable , it did feel very much so like inevitable .
JessicaIt did feel very much so like sam kind of ruined it , which is so sad , but at the same time he has every reason to suspect gollum and has every reason to want to protect frodo from him yeah , facts true , it's a tough , it's a tough situation .
Kritterum . So , as they're headed up on the singular path straight up the mountain , frodo tries to release Gollum from service , noting that , with one way up and in , their bargain was pretty much complete , but Gollum declines and insists on continuing on , and that's the end of the chapter . Any final thoughts before we pick an MVP ?
JessicaThere were a couple . I had pointed out that if he's false , he's false . But then there was also a moment where , when they were talking about the fairy tales a little further on from where we read why even Gollum might be good in a tale . Uh , and so again , being a Gollum stan , I was like that's very sweet .
JessicaUm and just the idea of how Sam said I'd keep watch over you if you lay near with my arm around you , Just incredibly sweet . And and the very end was Sam saying , yes , I called him a sneak , yes , I said it . I said I was sorry , but pretty soon I'm not going to be sorry anymore . Uh , you know so Sam's kind of being a little hard , but in this moment he owns it . He said it , he did the thing , he tried to apologize for it . It just wasn't enough , yeah .
KritterOkay , was that it , that's it . Okay , well , we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode . Cue the music , jessica . Who would you name as your MVP this episode , jessica ? Who would you ?
Jessicaname as your MVP . This episode I'm going to throw back to Faramir . Okay , he ended strong . He didn't disappoint me . He ended in this section strong . You know he's left the scene I have no reason to know whether or not he'll come back or when . And he really was a benefactor to them while he was with them . He tried to help them with information , he tried to keep them safe . He , you know , was an ambassador , you know , for Gondor to them . So I think I'm going to give it up for Faramir , really looking out for them and , to your point , giving them that last little respite of safety , a little bastion , a little moment , a little breath .
JessicaI think that that's important , given the stair climb that happened afterwards .
KritterYeah for sure . Okay , good choice . So I'm going to tell you who I considered first and then I'll tell you who I'm picking . So I legitimately considered galadriel because , um , the file is really what clutched up whenever that the king of the ring , wraiths , was nearby , kind of sniffing , looking for the ring , becauseraiths was nearby , kind of sniffing , looking for the ring , because it was almost like he could sense it and Frodo overcame that urge that the ring was pulling him on by using the file that Galadriel was so wise in giving to him .
KritterBut I am going to pick Frodo as my MVP this episode just because he knew , or he had the I don't know wherewithal to use the resources that were given to him in a very , very tough situation . Handed and logical and reasonable he was when it came to gollum . He played that negotiation with gollum as well as he could , right , because he kept him alive , which is the , the ideal thing in that situation . Um , and even though he did have some missteps , where he , you know , tried to go across the bridge into kirith , uncle , that wasn't his fault , you know . He's under a lot of pressure .
KritterSo I think , given everything that he , he kind of earned it , you know , and and it as part of the little the speech that we read . He was so sweet for calling sam out and like making him feel good about himself too , and and I just can't give it to Sam , cause he's , he's just such a negative , nancy , aside from that cute little moment , that it's just not him this time , even though I love him to death , absolutely adore him , but he's just . He's so negative and and and he turned . He might've been the reason that Smeagol turned Gollum Right have been the reason that Smeagol turned Gollum right .
JessicaSo , yeah , that was heartbreaking to read . Honestly , being somebody who is rooting for Gollum , yeah , even though I realized what you know a losing ticket , that is yeah , I was like God , it really could have been so different .
KritterIt could have , but it's not . So , yeah , it's Frodo , for for me , faramir , for you both , strong , strong choices . As always . Let us know in the comments or on discord , um , or on social media , who your mvp is for this episode , if it varies from us or if it's the same , never forget that galadriel's an option . If you want to go with my original line of thinking , um , and yeah , we just , we love hearing from you all , uh and uh , and yeah , if you have , if you have your take , let us know what it is okay so for next week .
KritterThat's it . Read for next week book four , chapters nine through ten finish the book . Thank you so much for tuning into episode seven of season three of but are there dragons brought to you by your hosts , Jessica Sadai and critter XD ? Don't forget to follow us at . But are there dragons on YouTube , Instagram and Tik TOK and butt dragons pod ? Just one T on X . You can also find your hosts on social media as critter XD and shelf indulgence . That is it for today . We are workshopping new catchphrases for Season 3 , so let us know on social media how you feel about this one . Go , with the goodwill of all good men and women , Bye .
