But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 8: The One with a Betrayal, Shelob, & Master Samwise
Join Kritter and Jessica as they finish The Two Towers. This week's episode covers Book 4 Chapters 9-10. Things finally come to blows for Sam and Smeagol, Shelob the Terrifying arrives, and everything rests on Samwise and his choices.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Join Kritter and Jessica as they finish The Two Towers. This week's episode covers Book 4 Chapters 9-10. Things finally come to blows for Sam and Smeagol, Shelob the Terrifying arrives, and everything rests on Samwise and his choices.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host Jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Two Towers by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.
Jessica:And me as a Lord of the Rings first timer.
Kritter:In this, our final regular season episode of season three, we're going to discuss book four, chapters nine through 10 of the Two Towers Before we dive in. Jessica, how are you feeling? What's new with you?
Jessica:I'm good. Uh, I can't pretend that I'm not just the least little bit blown away by how fast june is going. Uh, yeah, I am, to be frank, getting married at the end of the month and it is really hard to think about anything else. Um, that stuff is getting real. Yeah, really, really real, but all very good, very well handled. I have lots of folks helping me, so it's all really good stuff, but it's getting really real. How about you?
Kritter:yeah, a lot of stuff going on on my end too, not getting married, but it is my anniversary this month and and my husband's birthday this month, and just summer is busy it's. So, you know, I'll be traveling for certain fun wedding events, and, yeah, june's going to be just wild Start to finish, basically Father's Day, all of it, all of it. So I'm excited that it's happening, one of the best months. I think we talked about that last time, but, uh, whoa, and then it's gonna be over, and then we're gonna have wat con wheel of time convention made for fans by fans, and then, yeah, it's a the summer's great. I love the summer, pretty excited about it. It's going to be good stuff, yeah, in the meantime, though, we finished the Two Towers, it feels kind of crazy I don't know.
Kritter:It feels like it went kind of fast, right it did.
Jessica:I mean we took a nice little break between the two books needed because we had Jordan Kahn and Life right, so we needed a minute. But Two Towers really kind of blew right by and, yeah, it went fast.
Kritter:It was a good read. So, speaking of the, Two Towers, book four, chapter nine she Loaves Lair. So just the title of this chapter got my hackles up.
Jessica:Did it elicit anything in you? The title, yes, so a lair. Anything that has a lair, it's got to be no. Bueno, right. Like it can't be good. This chapter very much reminded me like re-cemented in my mind that Tolkien does a really, really good job with creepy writing. He does thrilling kind of scary and intense writing quite well, which is not something I really gave any thought to before we started this podcast, but he really does kind of nail it, and this chapter absolutely reflects that for me yeah, yeah.
Kritter:So like this jumps into my next point. But we don't usually get literary umami in terrible places. We kind of talked about that. It doesn't have as much of a ring to it, but sam frodo and Gollum ventured into a dark rank tunnel and eventually quote time and distance soon passed out of their reckoning. To me that was just like ooh, okay, like that's dark but also really cool to read. Did anything from this underground hike stand out to you like language wise or just the?
Jessica:environment. Yeah, there were a couple that I had, so I had, uh, and these are just snippets, so bear with me not since the lightless passages of moria had proto or sam known such darkness, a sense of lurking malice, come on the stench and the peril. They had not gone more than a few yards when from behind them came a sound, startling and horrible, in the heavy padded silence a gurgling, bubbling noise and a long, venomous hiss. They wheeled round but nothing could be seen. Still as stones they stood staring, waiting for they did not know what I like. My hair is standing up on the back of my neck. Just reading it I'm like that was so well done yeah, it's creepy, yeah, creepy.
Kritter:Um. So at one point during this before we got to the spider, obviously uh, frodo and sam ended up holding hands as they proceeded. I don't know if you caught that. That's a sweet little image in an otherwise horrific place, let's see. So the hobbits reached a fork in the tunnel and then this is kind of the point that they lose Gollum. Gollum, nowhere to be seen or heard, and Sam just assumes this is where he intended to abandon them all along. He has the sense that something other than Gollum is watching them, you know, out in the dark, and I was wondering if you ever experienced this feeling the unseen eyes in the dark.
Jessica:I've been far enough in the woods in like Vermont, andont and and northern new hampshire, where sometimes the darkness really is looking back at you yeah, no, truly I have actually I've um.
Kritter:So I grew up kind of a redneck I don't always talk about this, but like a redneck rural, you know areas of missouri and my family you know I grew up hunting um, and my family you know I grew up hunting and so one time sometimes when you're hunting, you get up really really early in the morning, right before dawn, so that you can get to the place that you're intending to hunt before the light, you know.
Kritter:And then things start to move.
Kritter:Well, I was like I don't know, in high school maybe, and I was walking up this hill to the stand, this deer stand, and it was a big hill in the woods, right by myself, and I feel like I hear something and I've got a headlight on right, but you're not supposed to like flash it around all over the place because then you'll scare stuff.
Kritter:So I'm like looking down in front of me with my headlight and I hear something and like, instinctively I look up with my headlamp and there are eyes. There are just eyes like looking straight at me and you know it's not like squirrel eyes, they're not small, they're big eyes and I'm just like, okay, in my mind it's definitely a mountain lion, not in my, in my heart it was a mountain lion. In my mind I was like it's probably a deer, so I should just stand here until it decides to leave or it gets light enough that I could like try to get it, I guess. Um, but I like couldn't stand it because I was just so freaked out that I thought it was something other than the deer that I I ended up moving and scaring it. But yeah, unseen eyes in the dark are real. Seen eyes in the dark, even kind of worse.
Jessica:Yeah, no, so all of my stories are in fact camp stories. So I'm not somebody that went out and went into the stand, but I you know some of the folks who were holding down the fort at camp waiting for folks to come back. That was me. Yeah, waiting for folks to come back. That was me, and not as many big cats around here although we do have wild cats in New England we don't have many, but but it's always a possibility.
Jessica:They exist, yeah, and so typically it's bear Bear was more of a concern and, again, not as big as some folks might imagine, but it doesn't have to be a kodiak to mess you up yeah, you know like at the very least 300 pound black bear can really do you some harm so yeah, yeah so, anyways, that was a great tangent, uh eyes in the dark.
Kritter:Yes, eyes in the dark are a real thing yeah, yeah, and just having that sense, you know, even if you don't see them, but you can feel them, that's it's. It's real, I can. It's menacing, it is truly real and it is menacing. Um, okay, so, as you mentioned, it wasn't just eyes, noises, gurgle, hiss. Sam, interestingly, immediately thinks back to tom bombadil, wishing he was there, which I thought was fun, interesting, you know, like curious, because they haven't really mentioned him in so long. Um, he then thinks of galadriel and the star glass meant to be a light to frodo in dark places. What would you have been thinking about if you were him? Cause I feel like these were very like practical thoughts for him to be having.
Jessica:I don't know. I don't know that I would be. I don't know that I'd be troubleshooting right Like I don't know that I'd be, although there is something to be said for gold star, for working through your inventory mentally going what do I got on me that I can use? I loved the free association bubble association that got him from Tom to Galadriel. I thought that that was super awesome. I don't think I would be doing that. I think I would be like gosh. I really I don't want to die.
Kritter:What's that?
Jessica:noise, yeah, so I don't think I. I'm not somebody you want in a pinch. You know, if we're in physical danger, I'm not your girl, I will definitely tend to you when you get back to camp fair enough.
Kritter:I don't know that you're giving yourself enough credit, but you know what we should know ourselves, and so, yeah, I trust you. I like to think that I would be good in a pinch, but I've never been confronted with a giant spider before, only a probably deer in the dark, right? So yeah, anyways. Okay. So, reminded of Galadriel's file, frodo brings it out and shouts something in Elvish, though it's more like someone else was shouting it through him, which I thought was cool. The light shone like a silver flame and she lobe is not deterred. She had apparently heard those words long ago and hadn't heeded them then. So there's all this about the file a yarn dale coming down from the sunset paths with a silmaril on his brow and she lobe being an ancient evil which comes up again a little later in the chapter. Any standout moments for you amidst all this, like lore dumping.
Jessica:I think the biggest takeaway is that Shelob is, you know, a descendant of true evil and just happens to also be spider-shaped, and that she is genuinely old, like she's been in the area longer than Sauron.
Jessica:Uh so that was completely new information to me. Um, so that was really uh. That was probably my biggest takeaway from this chapter, but I thought that the next bit was the best sweetest hero description that I've ever read. So uh, it says uh. Then, holding the star aloft and the bright sword advanced, frodo hobbit of the shire walked steadily down to meet the eyes and I was just like that's hero, love, right there yeah, yeah, I was, uh, so initially they ran, but then frodo was like no man, we're gonna turn around.
Kritter:Um, were you surprised that this actually caused she love to initially withdraw?
Jessica:yes, I was. I was also surprised about, you know, the elvish speak coming out of Frodo. I know that he's Elf friend, I know that he's learned some Elvish, but the language seems significant, especially since the narrator talks about you know, this language Shelob had heard before and it didn't stop her then. So it definitely feels like a callback. It's just unfortunately a callback to a story I don't really know, right, um, yeah, uh, and I did think that it was incredible to. It was so much more than how it was depicted in the movie based on my remembering. Yeah, um, because obviously I haven't re-watched this part yet Cause this part is not in is in return of the King as opposed to to town.
Kritter:Yeah, which is something that very much surprised me the first time I saw the movie. So I was expecting it and it did not happen and I was like, uh, well, it's just another thing where there's so much more lore.
Jessica:It doesn't seem like a lot, but it really does amplify the story and make it, you know, have a more rich background, yeah, and make the fact that they are battling her with essentially light so much more impactful.
Kritter:Yeah, ok, so speaking of the lore, because you mentioned stories that you hadn't heard of before or whatever, so not having full context, I did want to point out, for those who may have a little more context, that they did say that Shelob was Ungoliant's offspring, which who's that Must have been somebody pretty special. And then also they did mention that she had offspring all over the place, including in Mirkwood. Whoa, oh see, I was like what is this face You're remembering?
Kritter:the offspring in Mirkwood. Yes, so that is something that we were familiar with because we were at the Hobbit not long ago and I thought it was one little call back to that, and now we know why they were so terrible and horrible I thought that she was just like a big scary spider from murkwood and I don't know that when I watched the movies that I got that she was.
Kritter:You know, she's more based on this reading she's more than just a super huge, scary spider yeah, yeah, otherwise known as or as, saran considers her his cat, his blood-sucking cat. Can you imagine, like she was around before him, the indignity of being referred to that way as unbelievable? Yeah, as a pet. Yeah, also the fact that, like they kind of talked about her motivations and essentially her entire motivation is death, to all you know she's not like Sauron's pet he could die too. For all she cares, she wants everyone to die and for her to grow larger than life. Basically, like evil, like just pure evil. It was kind of a wild description. I thought, yeah, so okay, we had Frodo turning around. Like just pure evil. It was kind of a wild description. I thought, yeah, so okay, we had Frodo turning around, taking her on.
Kritter:She retreated somehow, which was surprising, and Sam was like super stoked about this, praising Frodo for acts worthy of a song. And then he suggested that they get out of there. Right, and they try to, but at the very last moment, at the exit of the tunnel, there are cobwebs blocking their way that can't be cut by just any blade. Sam's initial reaction, thinking cobwebs would be no big deal was obviously premature, which I thought was so funny. He's like cobwebs, what like you're gonna stop us with cobwebs. And then his sword didn't work. Um, did you see this part coming, this little cobweb? What like you're gonna stop us with cobwebs? And then his sword didn't work. Um, did you see this part coming, this little cobweb trap?
Jessica:yeah, I mean, the reading made it really clear that she is not just a regular spider. So yeah, I kind of did see it coming. But never fear, there's an opportunity for some more lore and apparently there's a throwback to another story, I don't know where. Somebody else did amazing deeds and cut crazy webs in the past with sting with sting, with sting.
Kritter:I I, when this happened I felt kind of bad for sam. It was just like really proto just gets all the cool stuff, like he has so much cool stuff, and Sam just has some random sword. Anyways, that will be remedied here later. So once escaped, frodo and Sam ran with Sam ahead, still holding the file, because I think Frodo had dropped it at some point, and Frodo behind. Unfortunately, shelob had many exits from her lair and she got in between them and set upon Frodo. Sam tried to warn Frodo, but that was the moment that Gollum returned. So, madam Gollum fan, how are we feeling about him now?
Jessica:This was really hard because this comes immediately on the heels of how close Smeagol was to redemption and how Sam directly Not on purpose, but did directly ruin that. But also there's a little bit of satisfaction for me, even as a Gollum fan, to see them actually have it out, because it's been building for a really long time and Gollum has been saying terrible things about Sam, just like Sam has been saying terrible things about Gollum, and so it's a little bit of a relief for them to finally come to blows and have it out.
Kritter:Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a good perspective, I think I tend to agree. So, yeah, sam's fury against Gollum finally came to a head and he escaped from Gollum's grasp and laid several solid blows on him, and Gollum decided not to engage any further and he fled. So for the end of the chapter we find out that Gollum's plan had succeeded, though, when it came to Frodo. Thoughts before we move on.
Jessica:Just how horrible that must have been for Sam. Yeah, yeah, I would say that for this read it was Sam on my mind A lot.
Kritter:Yeah, sam is not having a good time, but it must have felt good to lay this back down on the column a little bit and get the better of him.
Jessica:I kind of loved it and Sam acquitted himself very respectively, you know, like he's a very strong stout fighter and has a lot of pent-up aggression against Gollum from their travels.
Kritter:He sure does. He sure does Gosh, it was just like I. Okay, so you know I read this, but I read it a long, long, long time ago and and this whole sequence, these two chapters, had me just having major flashbacks because it was just like you know, she comes out and I know, I know what happens, right, but not exactly the order of events. So then when gollum showed up again, I was like, oh my god, I had kind of forgotten. This was like that rent, like I, you know, because I don't love it quite as much as you do, and so I was just like I was on team sam there, like real, real hard, um. So it was so satisfying for him to just like do the I don't know, like he, he, he was channeling his Rudy, you know moments there, and it was just so so good to see.
Kritter:Um, I just loved it. But then of course it's, uh, these. This last chapter is devastating. Um, so let's move to it. Before chapter 10, the choices of master Sam wise.
Jessica:Let's just talk about what a stellar chapter title that is. So, again, I don't look ahead, I just okay, this is what we're reading. So when I turned the page, as it were, and I saw this for a chapter title, knowing that it's the last chapter in the book, I was like come on, that title is fire. That's all Just like really great choice tolkien.
Kritter:I am not sure anybody else has called sam master samwise, aside from faramir, unless I'm misremembering.
Jessica:I know faramir did, but I think he was the only one, and so it was kind of a telegraph moment too.
Kritter:I guess I just kind of nothing to the title. It's a good, good title, but I wasn't like, ooh, let's read into this right. Like in the context of this title or in this chapter he kind of does become Master Samwise and like officially, at least for a while. So let's talk about it a while. Um, so, let's talk about it. So sheelob has frodo wrapped up and begins to carry him away, sam taking frodo's discarded blade in his left hand. So I'm picturing dual wielding samwise. Gamgee charges, and quote no onslaught more fierce has was ever seen in the savage world of beasts, where some desperate small creature armed with little teeth alone will spring upon a tower of horn and hide that stands above its fallen mate. Did this imagery, this language, did it do anything for you?
Jessica:Yeah, it was incredible. It also reminded me that they're halflings, right. They're small and so Shelob is big, no matter what. And think about how much bigger she would be if we were half the size, you know, if we were only three, three and a half feet tall. Just how incredibly humongous she must seem to them.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I know the language was like that flowery. It was flowery, I loved it, and I know that mate can also mean multiple things. But I don't know like standing over his fallen mate. I was like huh Confirmation Obviously not, but in my mind kind of it was romantic.
Jessica:It was romantic In my mind. I feel like I don't know. I don't know anything about Tolkien. I certainly didn't know him as a person, but he, by all accounts, seems to be a master of language and I feel I can't help but feel that my headcanon, coming out of this, is going to be that he left room for interpretation. Yeah, I agree, that's ultimately where I am. I think that I think that that suits me, that it's OK, that it's OK that mate means more than one thing. It's OK for one man to tell another man that I love you. It's okay to hold hands when you are in the scariest, darkest moments of your life, Like all of those things are okay regardless of what spectrum your relationship is on it's still just like.
Kritter:I feel like it's beautiful. Yeah, it's a beautiful relationship, no matter what it's just, I always love it when it leans even more up for interpretation. You know, it's just like when it gets extra tender is when I'm like, oh man, I know that might not have been your intent, but boy, did you leave it open for interpretation. Um, okay, so anyway, sam got a claw, then one of her eyes, and he even got underneath her and tried to gash her underbelly, but here she was distinguished from dragons. Okay, let's just note that the word dragon was in this book. Yes, there were dragons.
Jessica:At some point there were dragons.
Kritter:It might have already shown up, but I don't remember. But there were dragons here right now, so there was no soft underbelly for her. And quote these hideous folds could not be pierced by any strength of men or elf or dwarf. Instead, she ended up being pierced by her own strength. She descended upon sam as he held, staying upright with both hands. Were you surprised by all the blows that sam managed to land on his own? And then how it ended up happening? Happening with she lobe?
Jessica:landing by the blow herself. Yeah, surprising, yes, um, I knew that he would be fierce in his defense and that the adrenaline would be high, but I just I thought that it was incredibly well done that he did impact Leanne so many more hits than I thought he would get, even with that, and that, ultimately, her own momentum was her undoing was just perfect momentum was her undoing was just perfect.
Kritter:yeah, I still have to give credit to sam, though, because, like he had both hands on the sword but he could have ultimately been crushed, granted, the sword helped, I'm sure, like how the the magic, the sword, I'll drive him.
Jessica:Like in my mind, she piled, piled, drove him into the ground yeah and he survived yeah. Yeah, that's wild.
Kritter:He kept the sword upright enough that it went into her. Good job, sam, good job Sting and Shelob. You've got to use your mind a little more in your next fight. Let me just say You've been rotting up on the hilltops a little too long. I need to stop trash-talking an ancient evil being I need to work on. Shelobbe, though, is not down and out yet. As sam recovers from a bit of a daze, she eyes him angrily and he once again remembers gladriel's file, crying out in a language he doesn't know, holding a light the file, and as if his indomitable spirit set its potency in motion. It glowed like it never had before, a terror out of heaven burning. She lobed till, at last, she retreated thoughts just incredible.
Jessica:You know the phial. The phial absolutely figures much more heavily into this than I got again from the movie. I just thought that the bright light scared her away like a big scary spider. Nah it burned her. This is so much more than that, and the quote that you just read, the indomitable spirit. I loved that I loved the idea that he's so fiery and stout and steadfast that it somehow amplified the action of the file.
Kritter:I really like that. Frodo held a loft, the thing in the caves, and she was like please. And then eventually she was like okay, I guess I'll retreat a little bit, but I'm coming back. Sam holds it aloft and it glows like it's never glowed before it burns her. So to me I'm just like oh Sam, he's got something a little extra, he's got something going for him. I don't know, it's a proud moment for absolutely for sam stands, I think, especially after that last series of chapters where he kind of disappointed us by, you know being testy with gollum.
Jessica:Yeah, again, I feel like frodo's. Frodo is struggling under one kind of weight and Sam was just struggling under a different kind of weight. That's really how I'm walking away from this and that this is. You know, sam in so many ways represents light and hope, and for that to be acted on so clearly with the file was very gratifying yeah, agreed, it was.
Kritter:I love this part. It was great. Um, so are you curious? I looked up the translation but, like part of me is wondering, is this, is this his, his? The thing he cried out in elvish meant to be understood, because Sam didn't understand it. You know what I mean? I'm not sure.
Jessica:So I didn't Google it because, as I've said, I don't Google things because spoilers beware.
Kritter:So I didn't look it up.
Jessica:I was insanely curious. But at each instance over this last part of the read, when there is language, it sounds like it's throwing back to a previous event tied to the file or the light of Arendelle, however you choose to perceive it, whether it's the file itself or the light itself. Okay, so I was insanely curious. So if you want to share it, I'd love to know. But yeah, I am Spoilers.
Kritter:I saved it, I I translate, translated, I googled it. I googled the translation. Um, because I was curious and I've, you know, read the silmarillion and I was like I'm not gonna get spoiled on anything, whatever it is, um, but I don't think it's really spoilery, because if I don't explain it to you, then spoilery, because if I don't explain it to you then it's not going to do anything. But okay, so this is what it means, what Sam said in Elvish oh, elbereth Starkindler, from heaven, gazing afar to thee, I cry now in the shadow of death. Oh, look towards me, ever white. So it's like a plea to me, it's giving crying out to god in a moment of desperation to like cast his favor on you or in this case cast her favor on you.
Kritter:Um, so, yeah, it's very, it's giving like the hail mary sort of in in some ways. Um, so I don't know if it was a call back to something that happened in the past or if he was just calling to an ethereal being. Um, but yeah, very. So that's what it meant. Pretty neat, um. So let's see, we got yeah, yeah, yeah. So Shelob leaves, shelob is gone and Sam goes to see Frodo and Frodo is down. Sam thinks he's dead and Sam laments Frodo's passing for quite some time but ultimately remembers his task. But, finishing the journey with the ring, he then decided to take Sting and the file but, as I understand it, leave the Mithril coat and his own sword with Frodo. Were you surprised?
Jessica:that he kind of looted Frodo to upgrade his gear? Uh, yes, yes, also yeah. So I do want to go back just half a tick and him over Frodo's body saying don't leave me here alone, don't go where I can't follow Tear jerker, you know definitely tear jerking material, even though I know you know, still heartbreaking. And so what I wrote about this particular section is, I feel, like Tolkien do you ever do math where you have to show your work?
Kritter:You have to do the long division.
Jessica:This is what this felt like to me and I actually, rather than feeling like it was condescending, which some people might be like, oh, you don't have to explain it to me, I like it explained to me. So I liked that here it felt like Tolkien was showing his work. Sam was, you know, bereft, grieving by what he feels is, you know, the loss of his mate, um, and has to make a decision. What do I do?
Jessica:And you know, tolkien took the time to really explain Samwise's thought process and decision points along this line and I really like that because ultimately, he changes his mind, and that's all rooted in the fact that we got to see how he got there and, ultimately, when he changes his mind, we see how he got there and ultimately, when he changes his mind, we see how he got there too.
Kritter:Yeah, yeah, I didn't mention this, but at one point he literally like seems to consider like the possibility that you know, there's sheer cliffs just over there.
Kritter:Wouldn't have to mourn then, and I was just like whoa, yeah, I don't remember that at all um, obviously obviously thrilled that he moved on from that line of thinking very quickly but at the same time, the fact that he had to go there to get eventually to the no, I need to continue on. I'm the last one. I said I would do this, I have a task, and yeah, it was. I agree that witnessing his thoughts, his whole process, was beneficial in this case.
Jessica:And he even says in it you know, I have a choice to make and guarantee you I'll do it wrong. And then ultimately he changes his mind. So self-fulfilling prophecy, a little bit, but a little bit all that more endearing, because you know it's Samwise.
Kritter:Yeah, little bit, but a little bit all that more endearing because you know it's samwise. Yeah, so, given the choice he sets out. But before he gets completely out of sight of she loves lair, he hears orcs all around and without much thought, puts the ring on to avoid getting spotted, just like boop. I've got this ring, no hesitation. Yeah, I feel like it took Frodo a very long time.
Jessica:And he's watched what this has done to Frodo. And is keenly aware of what it's done to Gollum, but like oop, just going to pop that on there.
Kritter:I just like to believe that he truly was surrounded and that was the only way of avoiding detection. That's what I'm choosing to believe. It just seemed really fast. It was so fast, but anyways, the orcs eventually spot Frodo and Sam just immediately gives up on his quest, pursues them back into Shelob's Tunnels, where I guess there's a passageway back up to their tower, and we get to overhear quite a bit of orc conversation here. Did anything stand out to you?
Jessica:Well, one thing before we switch to the orcs, because I'm glad you asked about them. One thing the ring did not confer was courage, and I love that he spelled that out. Yeah, you know Him deciding to follow the orcs. I completely understood in the moment. I thought it was really interesting too. I feel as though this was like an everyman pass at orcs, that these are orcs from different factions, like we saw previously.
Jessica:We're following different leaders and potentially have different orders or priorities um and in very relatable ways, go, yeah, no, we'd rather go where the loot's a little bit better and the scenery is a little bit nicer and you know, just kind of um humanizing them a little bit because in their own way they are reluctant soldiers. You know what I mean. In their own way, like many enlisted individuals, are just trying to finish out their time.
Kritter:Yeah, and they don't like their management. They find the Nazgul creepy like their management.
Jessica:They find the nazgul creepy.
Kritter:I'd like to have a little bit of a better gig where we don't have to deal with she lobe and and I guess the reason that these patrols were out because they're like two separate sets of orcs, I guess patrolling um was that they had been spotted on the stairs. I feel like that was not communicated. No, in the.
Jessica:Watchers, the watchers, capital W, you know, and that there is Intel being passed back and forth. So a message is shared, and I of course didn't write that down, but you know essentially that you know something's been spotted, and that's when the high Nazgul is mentioned, and that kind of took me off guard. So the idea that one of the Nazgul is above the others, a concept I had never considered. Okay, okay, I assume it's the dude that got sent out with the army.
Kritter:You know he's really super important. Yeah, okay, I was going to say they kind of alluded to that.
Jessica:It wasn't explicit. It says Hi Nazgul and it's capitalized.
Kritter:I was like oh, alright, hi Nazgul trademark TM. And then also the orcs were a little smarter than I expected. At least one of them. They deduced that frodo was not the only one there and another had escaped, given like the traces of blood or like goo or whatever she lobe left behind the fact that some of the bonds have been cut on frodo, um, all of that. So they kind of like figured it out.
Kritter:Just the use of critical thinking yeah didn't expect yeah it's like, obviously he's not the only one. And then the fact that they decided that the person, the other person, was the main warrior, the large, probably an elf warrior and that frodo was like the sidekick so he's probably not worth much.
Kritter:I thought that was so funny, and sam did too and said he like smirked or whatever like about it. Um, that was, that was also pretty satisfying. So yeah, the orc convo, I was not mad about it. I thought it was kind of a funny little glimpse into a different perspective. Um, so then they were talking about how frodo had to be taken to lugberts, stripped of his possessions. So was it just me or did you also think that lugberts was a person?
Jessica:I. I wasn't sure if lugberts was a person or a region, so I remember lugberts being the third faction when I was, when we first had the conversation in whichever part of the book where I was like, oh, we have three different factions that we're dealing with. And I wasn't sure if Lugberts was a region or their leader.
Kritter:Okay, See, when I was hearing this conversation, I thought this is their orc leader.
Kritter:I guess, Turns out, no, lugberts is the tower, like Sauron's tower, it is the. It's in like the black speech or whatever it's in the black speech for baradur, baradur, like the, the big main tower. Um, because, yeah, I looked it up because I was just like I read the book and listened. So it read, slash, listened, and so while I was listening I was was just like who is Lugberts? Why do I not know what Lugberts is? I don't understand this. So when I was working on my outline, I had to look it up just to make sure. And it is the tower.
Jessica:So we had Saruman's orcs and we had orcs from the Moria region, and then we had the Lugberts orcs, who were loyal to Sauron S region, and then we had the Lugbers orcs, who were loyal to Sauron. Sauron's orcs.
Kritter:From the tower. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense now that I know. So, to his surprise, Sam overhears that Frodo is alive and the orcs take him further into their tower behind a barred door. And to end the chapter, end the book, we read Frodo was alive but taken by the enemy. Thoughts before we pick an MVP.
Jessica:That was heartbreaking, awesome Cliffhanger to end the chapter on yeah, to end the book. The book, yes, the book. I sat there with my Kindle and went gotta be kidding me, uh-huh, yeah. So just, it was palpable for me the frustration of knowing that, in the same instance that you find out, essentially, that Frodo is still alive, that he's on this other side of a wall slash door, situation that you cannot get through. And just the frustration I felt on Samwise's behalf was crazy.
Kritter:Imagine, like 10-year-old Critter reading this for the very first time pre-movies and at first I think Frodo's literally dead. You know he's dead. Sam thinks he's dead. Sam thinks he's dead. Sam takes his stuff. Sam's gone. Frodo's out of the picture. You know, another member of the fellowship gone and that was insane to like witness. You know to read and I'm just devastated. And then I get this major high not dead, and within a page or something not dead but taken. It's going to be a tall order to get him out of this tower filled with orcs from the top of the tower which is where they said they were taking him Completely unattainable.
Kritter:For one small hobbit with, granted, a pretty nice sword thanks to, thanks to his looting abilities, um, and a file like. Oh, I remember, like vividly remember, the feeling because I would um, I got these initially from the library so like having to like wait until we took a trip to the library to return the two towers and get the return of the king, and I am dying, truly heartbroken. What is going to happen next? So, yeah, I think that's a sign of a pretty good ending.
Jessica:I wouldn't let myself read so. Above and beyond that, I was planning on going to see the movies. It was such a good cliffhanger for book two that I was like I can't. If I start to read now, in prep for our next recording, it will color our debris, so I can't do it. So I, as of yet, have not started return of the King, because I wanted to get through our last episode and our wrap party before I lost the space that I'm in on it.
Kritter:Okay, that's good of you. That is well done, well done, bravo, thank you. You've truly dedicated to the cause.
Jessica:I am.
Kritter:Okay, any more thoughts for you to the MVP thing. Okay so we've, before we do the MVP thing. Okay, so we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music, jessica. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Jessica:Well, I know this is going to be a complete and utter shock, but I pick Samwise Gamgee. I completely agree. Know this is going to be a complete and utter shock, but I picked sam wise gamgee I completely agree.
Kritter:Sorry spoilers, he's mine too, but why is he yours?
Jessica:uh, because this read he just embodied everything everything about loyalty, everything about why it was a good thing that he went with Frodo. Sam is not perfect, frodo is not perfect, none of the characters are perfect. And it has been hard with Sam lies and and being so contentious with Gollum, but he rises right, he shows up, he has the loyalty. He's not perfect, but he is himself and he is there out of pure love and clearly that's what was needed.
Kritter:Yeah, amen, he's just God to your character. Honestly, the file knew it glowing brighter than it had ever glowed. Uh, he, you know, I don't know. Uh, what is the? What is the word? The um, the fighting style. You know where you're in a ring and you can kick and punch cage man mma.
Kritter:He, like mma, fought gollum off of himself with you know, for the first time really seeing him do something like that Physical, I don't know, maybe not the exact first time, but like he really came to play against Gollum, against Shelob. He was the one that remembered the file in the first place. So even though Frodo did have his nice little moment with the file wouldn't have happened without Sam, and so it was just Sam.
Jessica:Just I love him so much and they wouldn't actually both be alive still at the close of this book, I feel like True.
Kritter:Yeah, shelob would have taken Frodo, the orcs never would have found him and she would have killed him Like yeah, completely true. Um, so insane. You know he really is that big warrior that the orcs think he is, but it's in his heart just in a compact yeah, exactly, I love him so much. Mvp samwise for sure, yeah.
Jessica:Okay, well, I think that is it for us for today. We are planning our wrap party stream and we're going to have that here on the but are there dragons? Youtube channel. We plan on having that Tuesday, june 25th, at 8 PM central time. On behalf of both of us, I'd like to say thank you so much for tuning in to Episode 8 of Season 3 of but Are there Dragons, brought to you by your host, by Jessica Sedai and CritterXD. Don't forget to follow us at but Are there Dragons on YouTube, instagram and TikTok and but Dragons Pod, just one T on X. You can also find your host on social media as critter XD and shelf indulgence. That's it for us today. We would like to continue workshopping new catchphrases for season three, so let us know, on social media or discord, how you feel about this one. Farewell, my hobbits. May we meet again in my house. Thanks, bye, bye.