Episode 1: The One with Minas Tirith, Eowyn's Cage, & Paths of the Dead!

Join Kritter and Jessica once more as they begin the last leg of their journey through the Lord of the Rings Trilogy! This episode they dive into the Return of the King, Book 5, chapters 1 & 2. They finally see Minas Tirith, we hear a lot of frustration from Eowyn, and Aragorn makes a decision that leads into a very unsavory neighborhood!

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You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.

Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix

Transcript

Kritter: 0:07

Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter, and I'm your host Jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Return of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the. Rings veteran and me as the Lord of the Rings first-timer In this our first episode of Season 4, we're going to discuss Book 5, Chapters 1 and 2. Season 4.

Jessica: 0:41

Before we dive in.

Kritter: 0:42

Jessica, what's new with you? How are you?

Jessica: 0:43

feeling. I feel pretty good. You know a little certain something happened this last weekend, um known as my wedding. So yeah, it's official, there's a, there's a Mr Jessica out there and um, now we're home and and stuff can go back to somewhat normal, so that's also a good thing.

Kritter: 1:05

How about you? I am doing well, doing well. I'm so close to being in my third trimester, so your girl is getting more and more uncomfortable as the days go on, but it's more and more exciting too. So times are. Times are changing. For all of us, it seems Absolutely Yay, yeah, cool. So times are changing. For all of us, it seems Yay, yeah, cool, okay. So let's get into this book, shall we, let's do it All right.

Kritter: 1:33

so book five, chapter one, minas Tirith. It's wild to me the word Return of the King, I don't know right. That's the last book of the trilogy.

Jessica: 1:43

I feel like it's gone really quick yeah, not in a negative way, king, I don't know, like right, like that's the last book, the trilogy. I feel like it's gone really quick. Yeah, not in a negative way. I don't think we've skipped anything. I feel like we took our time, we've savored the good stuff, um, but we got here with really good time.

Kritter: 1:56

Yeah, I think so. I think we did it's. Uh, it's gonna be weird once we're done too, because, like, this reread has been on my list for a very long time and, uh, having read them again in such detail, I think, is it's been a whole new experience for me, because you and I are both like let it wash over me kind of people right like we're not totally died like delving into the minutiae, but this time we kind of are.

Kritter: 2:22

So it's been different. Good stuff, it is okay. So, uh, we start this book back with pippin and gandalf blazing a trail to minas tirth. At one point pippin exclaims seeing great fires in the distance and asking if there are dragons. Very good question. But Gandalf explains that the fires are the beacons of Gondor, already lit, calling for aid. First of all, you love to see dragons get mentioned, love to hear it. And second, did the beacons already being lit surprise you?

Jessica: 2:59

Absolutely, absolutely. I was like wait, what's happening? Okay, we're going out of order. Okay, fine, bring it and then it proceeds to tell us in detail where all the beacons are. So there are a lot of landmarks that I don't necessarily know right, but you know the litany is is listed out for um all the spots where they have beacons.

Kritter: 3:20

It yeah, it is. It is because it's uh, I care, I don't think it's only in the extended edition, but in the movies pippin lights, the first beacon, right like gandalf enlists him to do you forget? Okay, well, never mind it's. It's different than in the movies, I believe you okay. Um, also just a little note. We've got a nazgul sighting, like yeah, right away after the first night's ride.

Jessica: 3:45

Um I have a feeling that we're gonna count those. Right, we're, we're gonna count those. That's the plan.

Kritter: 3:51

First, the first one sighting this yeah, um, I have a feeling this book might, that might, get a little overwhelming. Oh, fair, but fair we will. We can do it for now. I think doing it for now is a worthy exercise. So, after this big, long grind, gandalf is greeted at the outer wall of Minas Tirith. The guards are suspicious of Pippin, of all people who, by the way, if you didn't catch our rap party, won MVP for the Two Towers. So go, pippin, we'll see how he does this time for the two towers. So go pippin, we'll see how he does this time. Um, anyways, they weren't understanding what he might be you know they're like what?

Kritter: 4:31

is this? A dwarf? I'm not sure. Gandalf vouches for him, though, calling him a valiant man, which rouses pippin from his sleep because he was asleep in protest. Neither a man nor valiant safe. Perhaps by necessity he says so. I missed our Two Towers MVP and his quick wit. Are you happy to be back with him here?

Jessica: 4:54

Absolutely, and I think that the way that he just demurs that one that he's just so sassy about you know a man, I am not, nor valiant, you know he's, so he's, he's humble, but also has a pert mouth, so I like that.

Kritter: 5:16

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was. It was funny how he stood up for himself but also was, like you know, valiant. Also, I don't know if you're, if you're only listening and not watching this. I just now noticed this um, we are. We are recording this on the eve of the fourth of july it's a slightly off schedule recording press, just because of the holiday, and we're wearing red and blue and white oh yeah, he wrote the white on the headset. Jessica's wearing red, I'm wearing blue. Uh, so completely unintentional patriotism yeah, but it happens.

Jessica: 5:50

But go us go, yeah, way to nail it, yeah.

Kritter: 5:55

Hashtag america. Um okay, so it seems that gandalf has a similar reputation in Gondor as he has elsewhere, always with tidings of grief and danger. Are we surprised?

Jessica: 6:11

No, but I love the fact that in this chapter they actually talk about it, and I know that it's not there, but I've kind of imposed on that. But you come with tidings of grief and danger, as is your want, they say. And Gandalf's response I kind of infused with a little bit of exasperation, because I come seldom but when my help is needed because it's more, it's one of, I think, three different times in this chapter. Somebody who's like oh you know, you're such a dire messenger and you never come except for when you know stuff goes sideways or whatever. And at one point in the chapter I was just like I'm getting the feeling that this gets old for Gandalf.

Jessica: 6:56

You know I feel a little bit bad for him. Nobody's ever happy to see him because he's basically always a harbinger of doom or, at the very least, bringing bad news. Basically, at a certain point he's basically always a harbinger of doom or, at the very least, bringing bad news.

Kritter: 7:07

Basically, at a certain point he's going to be like fine, you want me to stay home, I can just stay home, I can just stay home, you can handle this on your own. You don't need to know that there's a giant army coming or that Isengard fell, or any of this. He would be totally justified in replying to people. People like that oh oh, you don't want me here, that's fine, I can leave.

Kritter: 7:28

um, he would never, but he would be justified but it's clear he hears it a lot he, yeah, like every single time he goes to a new place as far as this trilogy and actually including the hobbit is concerned. Um so I thought that was funny. So pippin is struck by the grandness and beauty of minas tirith, but notes that it does seem to have fallen into decay. Does anything stand out to you from the description of the city?

Jessica: 8:02

um, so the things that stood out to me. We always know it's always kind of funny and and uh, a roll of the dice, what's going to stand out to me while I'm going through? So the thing that stood out to me is the way the seven tiers were described and how the gates are offset right, so the gates don't line up, they're all at different points, which seems strategic. And then I also took note of Pippin noticing that on every major street heavily paraphrasing that there's at least one empty great house on every street. Speaking to, it's not as full as it should be. There's not as many people here as there should be.

Kritter: 8:42

Yeah, I agree that it is a crapshoot as to what will stand out to me also, and none of the architecture. I mean, you know, I read the architecture and. I understand that it was there, but for me it was the outfits of the guards of the Citadel that sounded pretty awesome. They had Mithril helmets Like hello that's wild.

Jessica: 9:03

So I was like isn they had Mithril helmets Like hello, that's wild, yeah. So I was like isn't that stuff like super expensive and we're just putting it on as like adornment, because it was like the wings or something, it was decorative? Yeah, something, but like it was only for, like, the guards of the Citadel too, I think, which is, like you know, the big bad. Like the white, the white, not the white. So were these those, the same guards that are dressed in the air of a lendiel bannerman clothes?

Kritter: 9:29

the white tree blossoming beneath a silver crown on their surcoats yeah, that outfit like if I was a guard, if I had to wear, just like a right, not regular, because these guys aren't regular. But yeah, this is basically the equivalent of, like in Game of Thrones, the Kingsguard, or like the fancy, fancy, fanciest of fancy, guard outfits.

Jessica: 9:51

And so that stuck out to me, because this is all so to your point, to use your analogy, game of Thrones, right, like they're flashing the coat of arms for heirs of Elendil, but nobody in the city is the heir of Elendil. You know there's only one and we know where he is, and it's not Minas Tirith. So I thought that it was kind of neat that they are wearing a coat of arms essentially for someone who is not represented in the city currently. They're waiting.

Kritter: 10:23

And they walk past the tree that apparently is dead, looks dead. It's the tree that pippin saw in the whenever he grabbed the stone palantir um, yeah, the palantir, so it's all coming together, basically but I definitely took note of that.

Jessica: 10:38

The, the seven stones get mentioned and I was like, oh so the palantir are linked somehow to minister and that would make sense because one palantir in particular we know that aragorn said was his birthright right.

Kritter: 10:57

So, and we know, like the history of them, the men essentially had them in their strongholds way back in the day. So, uh, I guess, the men of numenor, the men, it's the history, lots and lots of history in the series so uh, yeah, it's.

Kritter: 11:13

It's fun to go to a place that's so clearly invested with all of that lore, even if the king or the heir is nowhere to be found as far as Denethor and the rest of them know so far. Speaking of, gandalf warns Pippin not to mention Frodo or Aragorn, and when Pippin is shocked at Gandalf's comment that Aragorn would claim the kingship when he came, we get another sick burn from Gandalf. If you have walked all these days with closed ears and mind asleep, wake up now. Do you believe Pippin really didn't know about Aragorn? Like was he just? Is that? Is that real life? I was just so surprised.

Jessica: 11:58

I mean, pippin is the one who didn't even know where they were on a map, right Like Mary did. So as much as I love our guy Pippin, I just don't think he's a pay attentioner which I'm not judging because I'm not a pay attentioner either but I do think it's pretty crazy that we find out that Strider is Aragorn and Aragorn is the heir, and Pippin still doesn't know that. That is pretty wild. I do think it's fun. Gandalf also said to him this is no time for hobbit pertness, you know, like just telling him up front. You know, keep your sass in check. In terms of architecture, though, there was one other throwback Pippin mentions. Pippin kind of draws a corollary between the way that the stonework is done in Minas Tirith and reminded of the hewn rocks of Argonath, and all fell on him, and so again I felt like that kind of tied back to those Numenorean roots the men.

Jessica: 13:00

So that I kind of liked that, because it was a real subtle way for the read to remind me like, oh, these are those roots, these men are in fact descendants of those people. It would make sense that they would have um some architectural likenesses For sure.

Kritter: 13:17

Yeah, it's all, it's the lore it's in there. It's all interwoven, which is really cool. It kind of reminds me of uh, to talk about another property like the white tower, you know, because like all in tears, it's white washed or should be just it sounds really like a cool, neat place and, of course, like we've seen it in the movie and it is really impressive and majestic. So it was easy to picture basically. So they get to Denethor, gandalf greets him and Denethor already has tidings of Boromir's death. He's in possession of the cloven horn of Boromir and he's been told that Pippin witnessed it already and I think that was a conversation they had like out at the gates or something like literally. So he's hearing things very quickly.

Kritter: 14:06

Um, we also get confirmation that it's only been 13 days since foramir died. Yep, but with everything that's happened, it it truly feels like much, much longer. Even, of course, the read was like very pleasurable, but it just feels like so much has happened. Yeah, that blow your mind as much as it does. Yeah, I highlighted it, I made a. The read was like very pleasurable, but it just feels like so much has happened, yeah.

Jessica: 14:27

Does that blow your mind as much as it does? Yeah, I highlighted it.

Kritter: 14:28

I made a note I was like so they rode for like two more days.

Jessica: 14:31

So we're saying that the contents of what happened in the two towers took place over the course of essentially 10, maybe 11 days. Yeah, that's insane.

Kritter: 14:44

Insane Like Isengard got taken down y'all like in 10 days. You know from, yeah, from conception to birth?

Jessica: 14:56

I don't know it literally just yeah, it was really. It was kind of crazy to hear that and be like, oh, that that was a week and a half ago. All of that happened in a week and a half, essentially.

Kritter: 15:10

Mary Pippin and Treebeard became best friends in very short periods.

Jessica: 15:12

And overthrew Isengard. You know no big.

Kritter: 15:15

Yeah, just like casual friend stuff, you know. It's like team building, yeah, but like you know, it takes team building to a whole t building some destruction. Yeah, with a little destruction, just a little. It's not like an exercise anymore, it's real life, um anyway. So den thor questions pippin about boromir's death, noting wisely oh, and pippin notes wisely that the mightiest man may be slain by one arrow, and Boromir was pierced by many. He then offers his service to Denethor as payment of a debt he feels he has. Would you have done the same?

Jessica: 15:53

No, because Denethor already rubs me the wrong way. I know there's movie bias. I understand there's movie bias. We went into this and just the immediately I was like this man is working him hard and Pippin, I feel like, starts off on the defensive and maybe it's a little bit of defensiveness on Pippin's behalf as well. But like no, you, just you, don't come at my boy like that. Ultimately, throughout this scene, pippin feels like a bit of a tug of war rope between these two men, and I didn't like it at all. And so Denethor is already a no.

Kritter: 16:37

Thank you for maybe wouldn't have just immediately been like. My sword is your sword.

Jessica: 16:43

No, and I don't think that it's right that Pippin feels he owes him anything. Yes, boromir was brave and yes, he wanted to save you, but it's not like you sat there and ate honey cakes while he got murdered. You were taken into custody, you were then captured and hauled away and faced your own trials and tribulations. It's not as though you abandoned him to die on your behalf, anyways. So I had some thoughts and feelings about this when I read this, but it's very sweet and endearing and just shows you know the heart of a hobbit For sure.

Kritter: 17:20

I wanted to note in this little sequence, whenever he does offer himself and his service to Xanathor a little literary umami. First in this season, a pale smile like a gleam of cold sun on a winter's evening passed over the old man's face Like a pale smile and cold right, because it's like cold sun and winter. It's just kind of like I don't love that. It's. It's a beautiful description, but what I'm getting is something that's kind of chilling. Uh, tillian, yeah, and I'm worried that it is like movie bias, but I feel like they're.

Kritter: 18:04

Tolkien was sending us some symbols here with the language that he used. We've already got this man being very cold and calculating, so you mentioned this already. But Gandalf and Denethor then proceed to basically have a staring contest and Pippin sees that they are rather similar. Both have wizard vibes and though Denethor looked more kingly, beautiful, powerful and older, pippin could sense that Gandalf in fact had the greater power, deeper wisdom and veiled majesty and was much, much older. When Gandalf and Pippin took their leave from Denethor, gandalf and Denethor again share tense words, denethor reminding Gandalf that he won't be used and that his primary directive is the good of Gondor, and Gandalf one-upping him, noting that all worthy things are in his care, for he is also a steward. How did this first meeting slash confrontation hit for you between these two great men, I mean?

Jessica: 19:11

sparks and oil it was, and so I can definitely understand the concept of being a leader of people and having to work against other strong personalities like Gandalf or whatever.

Jessica: 19:29

But this seemed very conflict ridden from the get-go and I don't really feel like all of that came from Gandalf. I feel like a lot of that came from Denethor, and I also got from the reading that it seems like Denethor is and Faramir like him, but not so much. Boromir seems to have a very strong charisma right and can read between the lines and has a very high intellect and is getting more information than, you know, a regular man might, and so I thought that that was an interesting note, that that some of their background was kind of giving him advantage and lets him read between the lines more and obviously his state craft you know he's been the steward for however long. I'm sure he's picked up some tricks. I I understand not wanting to get worked by somebody else, but at the same time I felt that he was truly, truly um being obstructive just because he could yeah, like questioning pippin when gandalf is right there.

Jessica: 20:47

Yes, it felt very much like a power play and I don't have much patience for that sort of behavior in fiction or in real life. I would be like, okay, I'm all set with you, right. Have fun burning down the castle.

Kritter: 21:02

I don't, if you want to talk, let's talk, but, like, don't leave me sitting here while you're questioning a hobbit about how your son died.

Jessica: 21:09

Just because you want to, you know know, have a measuring contest. I don't know like. It's just not a good look that's how it felt.

Kritter: 21:17

I totally agree, yeah, um. So when they're alone again, gandalf's mood completely shifts. He seems tickled by pippin's choice to enter denethor's service. We also learn, as you mentioned, that Denethor has a bit of I guess we could call it magic in him. Him and Faramir both strongly carry the blood of Westerness and he's got, quote long sight, which they describe as a bit of a mind reader, even for those that are far off. So did this like bit of magic? Surprise you and would you want long sight?

Jessica: 21:58

Yes, it surprised me. Yes, I would like it. I think that it's insight into the character that I would have liked to have known before. I think that it would probably change my perception of him. Yeah, because I really just thought he was a grumbly old man. So not that he isn't a grumbly old man, that didn't change but it it's advantage, right Like there's, he's got tools in his tool belt that not everybody else has available to him.

Jessica: 22:27

And it does help him, apparently, understand things in a way that other people you know, allows him insight that other people don't have.

Kritter: 22:37

Yeah, he's got. Like you know, whenever you send somebody a meme and you saw it, like a week ago on TikTok I always try to resist the urge and I feel like I really do succeed at not being like oh yeah, I saw this already, you know, and I feel like I really do succeed at not being like oh yeah, I saw this already. You know what I mean. I laugh Right. I feel like Denethor's the opposite.

Jessica: 23:00

Yes, he's like oh yeah, I saw this already.

Kritter: 23:03

Like great Okay.

Jessica: 23:05

Steamed it.

Kritter: 23:06

Already steamed it. Yeah, why are we like what good am? I to you, then yeah, it's just kind of like surely there is stuff that I know that you don't know, so why don't you just like stop being such a meanie about it?

Jessica: 23:22

I think his bad attitude and the long sight are completely unrelated.

Kritter: 23:27

I think so too.

Jessica: 23:28

I think that he's just kind of an ornery old dude and he has this benefit of this long sight which I would think to your point. I would think it would imbue you with a certain amount of patience, like other people don't have all the information that I have to work with. No, he chose to go another way, just to be a bigger jerk about it, Basically like on his on, not his throne on his steward's chair, just kind of like you're wasting my time.

Kritter: 23:57

Okay, thanks, which is just not a good look. No, my favorite. I too would like long side.

Jessica: 24:04

You know, I don't think I'd have any problem being psychic, I think it would be nice well, and I like knowing things same knowing how things work, yeah yeah, well, and and sometimes, although I don't think of myself really as a gossip, but every once in a while I'll just be like oh, I just like to know.

Kritter: 24:26

You know, I don't. I'm pretty. I'm really good at not staying, I'm really good at staying, mom, right, if I'm supposed to. I just love to know things. I feel like that would be just the ticket for me personally. I guess if you're listening or watching, let us know in the comments or in Discord if you would want long sight or if you would rather go about life with limited access to other people's thoughts. I mean, obviously we don't know the extent. My, my impression is this is more like he can kind of get, he can kind of stay abreast of the goings on in the world by kind of seeing them through other people. It's not like he can read like the finite, like very personal thoughts of people, but it's more like seeing through other people. It's not like he can read the finite, very personal thoughts of people, but it's more like seeing through other people's eyes. That's how I envision it.

Jessica: 25:17

I took it as an added layer on context clues, right. So even in the section that you're talking about, gandalf mentions that as well as you did, pippin. There are still things that you mentioned that he couldn't help but notice. He knows that there was another member of your party who was revered or something along those lines, that that in fact, boromir was not the leader of the group that came away and et cetera et cetera, and I was like, okay, so this is kind of like he's always going to roll with advantage.

Kritter: 25:49

On a 20 insight roll with advantage on a really Level 20 insight.

Jessica: 25:51

Yeah, he's gonna gnat 20 on insight on basically every roll, and he's able to make really really good inferences and fill in the blanks. Reading between the lines of all the things that you're saying, that's kind of how I took it.

Kritter: 26:06

And my guess is like sort of just based on like when they said, you know, he can also read things from people far off, Kind of like whenever Frodo went and sat on that chair, you know, and he can kind of like whatever see the movements of armies and whatnot From like way off in the distance, like that is kind of what I'm picturing for like far away, yeah.

Kritter: 26:28

Of course, knowing, like reading, like the very specific and personal things in people's minds, it would be very intrusive and I would like to prevent myself from that part of being like psychic, I think alongside and just like keeping track of the goings on and having insane insight would be pretty great In D&D terms, I think.

Jessica: 26:48

It's detect thoughts, and when you detect thoughts it takes the surface level, but there's a DC role, I think, to do it, to delve in deeper. Hmm, okay.

Kritter: 26:58

I couldn't help myself.

Jessica: 26:59

I had to make it D&D.

Kritter: 27:01

No, I think that's. When I heard the word long sight, I was like that sounds like an ability that somebody would have, like some kind of I don't know which class, but it fits, it fits indeed it totally fits um okay. So before gandalf leaves pippin, he asks him to make sure shadow facts is being treated well. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate gandalf as a horse dad?

Jessica: 27:28

I would give him a 9.5. I think that this is fantastic because he respects Shadowfax's autonomy. He knows that he is deigning to be, you know, stabled because they don't allow horses within the city. I think Gandalf is really crushing it as horse dad.

Kritter: 27:49

Okay, we just need to see more to give him the full 10. We just don't have enough.

Kritter: 27:53

Yeah, just a little bit more information, but I think um I I really found it very endearing that he asked pippa to check on shadow facts I also, like you know, because tolkien is really good about really getting to the mean potatoes of a story, right, right, we get, we cover just so much that happens in these stories and the books are not that long right, and but the fact that he took a minute to be like Gandalf's going to make sure Shadowfax is taken care of just goes to show, I think, how much he like, respects animals and I don't know.

Jessica: 28:27

it just made me like Tolkien even more because he didn't have to mention that at all. But so I go back to the bill, the pony defense, like just all of that. Yeah, he took the time to write that out.

Kritter: 28:41

That is so darling to me, like that's so excellent to me anytime we we talk about and the horses of rohan and yeah it's all good stuff although, although I did, I think this actually reminds me, and I got reminded later reading this in a different passage as well but I saw, I think on TikTok or somewhere, that there are in fact more named horses in the Lord of the Rings than there are women.

Jessica: 29:11

I believe that because I feel like there have been four.

Kritter: 29:15

Five At least, and then we get more later. Yeah, okay, and so, yeah, we don't have many. Oh women, yeah right, yes, yes, yes, we've got Eowyn Arwen Galadriel.

Jessica: 29:29

Luthien.

Kritter: 29:31

Luthien who's not Luthien. Luthien who's?

Jessica: 29:32

not Luthien. Luthien is the girl.

Kritter: 29:37

Yeah, who is not in the story, but she's a named female in the story.

Jessica: 29:41

Mm-hmm, I don't know of any Lobilia Sackville.

Kritter: 29:46

Baggins. Yes, sorry, and I'm not sure if there are other women in the list of relatives, it's relatives. So long since I thought of the sackville bagginses, I know, well, sorry, I shouldn't have brought them up, shouldn't have brought it up.

Kritter: 29:58

Now I'm gonna be gritting my teeth. I can't confirm that this is true and, and I imagine like get, because now that I'm thinking of the fellowship where he has that big long list of relatives who get bequeathed things, part of me is like they include those people, or is it only people that have, like, speaking parts, you know, not people who just get mentioned, but like but, anyways, it doesn't matter. Um, it does feel like that could be very true, though, given the attention that horses are paid, but it's a nice thing.

Kritter: 30:26

I wish there were more named important women, but I do appreciate that the horses get the, you know, some respect anyways. Um, we meet baragond, soldier of gondor, and he's essentially pippin's orientation leader. They spend a pretty delightful morning together and then pippin spends uh, the rest of the day with baragond's Virgil. Did you have any standout moments from this?

Jessica: 30:55

I thought they were. I thought they were adorable. Honestly, I thought that it was great that he spotted him. I thought that the way that Pippin played with Virgil was adorable. You know when he's oh, you have the look of him and you know he kind of. You know Vir's oh, you have the look of him and you know he kind of. You know virgil was kind of blustery and and bravado with him and and pippin answered in kind. I thought that was really sweet. Yeah, um, and he him talking about. You know, there there'll be halfling warriors riding in with the riders of rohan and how he regretfully had to dispel that tale.

Jessica: 31:35

Just, I thought that it was a nice little. Um, I thought it was a nice little interlude, a great positive experience for Pippin with the folks of Minas Tirith. Um, the, the father son act was super adorable.

Kritter: 31:51

Yeah, we definitely didn't get anything like that in the movies, like that. You know it was Pippin didn't have a little jaunt on the town with the town folk in the movie, so it was a fun little thing that I had, truly completely.

Jessica: 32:06

You know, what it gave me honestly was Bard vibes. So Bard, his son, you know what I mean, and that's kind of what that made me think of is okay, so we're gonna meet some regular folk okay, yeah, that's true. Um, so I will note that we got another nazgul not sighting, but we heard the nazgul chilling it's only we're not gonna talk it, because we're not going to count it, because we said, you know, winged shadow sightings.

Kritter: 32:36

Oh okay, Sightings, sightings, only Good to know. And then in this conversation, I wanted to just put a little pin in the fact that we found out I'm not sure we heard this before that Pippin is 28, nearly 29, and that that wasn't yet of age. And I know that we knew that he was the young one and he wasn't fully of age, but I don't know that we had his actual age, A number.

Jessica: 33:01

Yeah, I don't think we had a number either honestly.

Kritter: 33:03

So it's good to know. Mm-hmm, we little lad 28, almost 29. So after this day, Pippin, with a lonely gloom upon him, makes his way back to his room with Gandalf and falls asleep. He wakes late in the night to find Gandalf there. Gandalf tells him to go back to sleep, that he will take him to Denethor at sunrise, then notes that they'll actually just wait till he's summoned, because the darkness has begun. There will be no sunrise Not the most hopeful end to a chapter. Any thoughts before we move on?

Jessica: 33:41

It's the first chapter of the book. So we're starting out with like, oh okay, Soul crushing to start Got it.

Kritter: 33:48

A little bit. Yeah, yeah, so good to move on to the next chapter. Any final thoughts?

Jessica: 33:54

I did have. There was another, the shadow of doom. There was another umami, I wanted to share. There's a couple of spots, so this one's a little less. I'm going to do the not so nice one and then the pretty one. Okay, um, it's. It's pippin talking. No, who's talking to pippin? I think it's baragond talking to pippin, um, about the fact that war is imminent. And then he says here will the hammer stroke fall hardest, and for that reason mithrandir came hither in such haste. For if we fall, who shall stand and master peregrine? Do you see any hope that we shall stand? And then the other one was just a little bit prettier. Um, hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green. I do like that one.

Jessica: 34:57

Just little snippets that I found um, the only thing, the only other thing. Oh, I learned some new agricultural words. As is my, as is my want. Um, you know. So tilts, um buyer, beer buyer, however you pronounce it, I feel like I'm scrolling really far. There was a whole bunch of them that was basically talking about all the ways in which they have agriculture. I was like I had to look up every single one. Of course I did, of course I did. Um, yeah, oh, and that the tower is 50 fathoms tall, so that's like 60 feet, sorry, 300 feet. There we go.

Jessica: 35:47

That makes more sense 300 feet, so that's like 30 stories.

Kritter: 35:52

That's really really effing tall. That's a football field, right.

Jessica: 35:58

Yes, that's 100 yards.

Kritter: 36:00

Okay, I was like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica: 36:03

Pretty tall, Believe it or not. I had to wait for my brain to go from vertical to horizontal to be like yes, that tracks.

Kritter: 36:12

Yes, I believe that's true.

Jessica: 36:14

I am somebody who has to jump in the map, like Joey in Friends. I am that person.

Kritter: 36:19

Yeah, you cannot be blamed for that. It makes sense.

Jessica: 36:25

So that's all I had for chapter one.

Kritter: 36:28

Okay. Book five, chapter two, the Passing of the Grey Company. We are now back with Merry, aragorn, gimli, legolas and Theoden's escort, including Theoden way, and they soon encounter Halbarad Dunadan, ranger of the North, with 30 other rangers, and Elrond's sons, elrohir and Eladan. The latter two have a message for Aragorn from their father. The days are short. If thou art in haste, remember the paths of the dead. So I'm not going to lie with how wise Elrond is. I might just take this as a message. You should take the paths of the dead. So I'm not gonna lie with how wise elrond is. I might just take this as a message. You should take the paths of the dead and obey. How would you have handled such a message?

Jessica: 37:22

I agree, I think elrond has such street cred for me after um, the council of elrond, much less whatever other kind of history he he probably because Aragorn is old enough to have had other dealings with him. Yeah, I'd probably take it on faith.

Kritter: 37:39

It's like okay, yeah, I mean sure, if I'm in a hurry, why would I not be?

Jessica: 37:44

Yeah, I was not expecting other rangers, so for him to roll on up with 30 rangers, I was like that's cool, that's like having your own special forces squad, right like okay, yeah, that's gotta help yeah, I mean, we've seen aragorn yeah. So even if they're only half of aragorn, they're still bringing something to the party for sure absolutely worth more than just one person.

Kritter: 38:12

Yes, without a doubt, which is mentioned, I believe, by Théoden or one of his men. So Halbarad also has a gift for Aragorn from the Lady of Rivendell. She wrought it in secret and sent with it a message. The days now are short. Either our hope cometh or all hopes end. Therefore, I send thee what I have made for thee. Farewell, elfstone. Sorry, that was it. Aragorn told him to keep it for the moment. Did you have any thoughts on what it might be? Did you have any thoughts about the reveal that it was likely galadriel that sent this aid their way?

Jessica: 38:58

I had no idea what it was, but I hooped it up I was super excited when we were like yes, uh, because lady galadriel can do no wrong and so obviously she was smart enough. Once, once, um aragorn said I didn't send the message I also was like, well, who did? And for a second I was like, yeah, is anybody suspicious of this? You know, maybe it's a, maybe it's a trick it's a trap trick.

Jessica: 39:29

Yeah, you know what Tolkien did this to me. All right, yeah, I'm suspicious for a reason, but I loved the idea that it was Lady Galadriel because I already think that she's preternaturally intelligent and thinks of things and knows things and communicates at a level that's way beyond regular folk at a level that's way beyond regular folk.

Kritter: 39:52

Also, very much seems like she probably has long sight, but like long sight, extreme right, cause she's got the pool and all that.

Jessica: 40:00

It's level 10.

Kritter: 40:01

Yeah, way higher level than Denethor in the long sight.

Kritter: 40:04

At least I'm going to tell myself that that she is far superior in every way to Denethor, um, so Theoden takes mary under his wing, getting him a I don't know what I meant to write here a point and some gear. Getting him something and some gear, um, and asking him to be his esquire, which mary is super grateful for, having felt very much like unwanted baggage after pippin's departure. They spent some time together talking and eating, and mary went so far as to say theoden would be as a father to him. So I found this really sweet. What about you?

Jessica: 40:45

I thought it was very endearing and I think that it's ironic um that they're each swearing fealty almost at the same time.

Jessica: 40:56

So I really liked the fact that Chapter 2 started off right where Chapter 1 started off, so that you know our gap was closer. I know that it doesn't necessarily mean that it will stay that way, but I was kind of relieved when I saw that, was kind of relieved when I saw that, um, and I just, yeah, I found it very noteworthy that both mary and pippin are having um kind of parallel experiences.

Kritter: 41:18

Only, in my opinion, mary has a mary has a much better benefactor yeah, I realized that it a pony Pony.

Jessica: 41:31

Yes, he did get a pony, a good hill pony, no less yeah.

Kritter: 41:37

Yeah, I definitely think Mary is making out like a band in here when it comes to, I don't know, liege lords, there you go, that's a good, and Pippin not so much. Not so much, unfortunately, unfortunately. Um. So I, I I must admit I didn't actually look at the map to like really get a concept of how all these things are playing together, but they go back to helms deep and take a break and, uh, I don't know how that like works out as far as like whether they were heading away or towards any relevant things. But whatever, um aragorn eventually decides, after much deliberation and the use of the Palantir, to part ways with Théoden's company.

Kritter: 42:18

He has decided to take the paths of the dead. Any thoughts about the exchange with Théoden or Legolas and Gimli about the matter?

Jessica: 42:30

I think that I liked seeing the what was said by the seer, so they shared the whole. Um prophecy, I guess, from Malbeth um from the North. Shall he come, need shall drive him. He shall pass the door to the paths of the dead. That whole I like that. That. That's fun lore, yeah, um, I thought that it was very drastic the way that he was described like he was physically changed over the course of a night, um. And so when he mentions using the palantir, I was like okay, that makes sense, but also dang it, what are you doing? And, uh, you know that whole exchange happens on paper as well, as people are like, well, gandalf told you you shouldn't mess with it. And his reply is essentially well, and I told gandalf, it's actually mine and if I have the strength and wherewithal to use it, I'm going to wasn't it something like you forget with whom you speak, or?

Jessica: 43:33

something I was like dang okay okay, it's exactly what he said.

Jessica: 43:38

You forget to whom you? What do you fear that I should say to him? Did I not openly proclaim my title before the doors of Edoras? Uh, to obscure him somewhat? And he knows that Sauron hasn't forgotten Nilsildur and hasn't forgotten the sword of Elendil, and you know, knows that he revealed that it has been reforged. So, um, I think that it was a big gamble, but it got him the information he needed, because immediately after that he goes. Well, I guess I have no choice. It has to be the paths of the dead, you know. So the fact that, uh, elrond told him and then, when he was looking in the palantir and seeing the doom that's coming for everyone, um, you know, he really felt like he had no choice.

Kritter: 44:34

Yeah, that was this. This was the way. There was a couple of things from this. Mary was feeling cast aside again and missing Pippin even more, which made me sad. I think it's so sweet Whenever like either one of them is like man. I really wish I miss my buddy here.

Kritter: 44:50

I know it's so, like it's real, it's so real. And then I agree that Aragorn using the stone to make sauron fearful was a bold move, but like it seems like maybe it's gonna pay off. Uh, and then whenever, um, whenever the party not aragorn's party, but like theoden's party leaves with pippin and aomer, aragorn says there go three that I love, and the smallest, not the least he knows not to what end he rides. Yet if he knew he would still go on. I was just like he's so precious it was so precious.

Kritter: 45:31

I love how, like everyone who encounters the hobbits, can't help but just love them and admire them and respect them because they do they leave such an impression, which I think is so great. Um, okay, so aragorn's company, which I assume is what the, uh, the gray company is?

Jessica: 45:50

I was probably three quarters of the way through the chapter before I felt like that was confirmed. Yeah, I kept thinking to myself. I'm like so is that the gray company?

Kritter: 45:59

I think it's them, I'm pretty sure it's these guys.

Kritter: 46:02

I think it's these guys so complete with rangers gimley and legolas, then rides for edoras and dunharrow, passing one night under eowyn's roof before moving on. While there, aragorn exchanges some tense words with eowyn about his chosen path and her appointed duty to watch over her people rather than riding to battle. A taste of her dissatisfaction goes as follows all your words are but to say you are a woman and your part is in the house. But when men have died in battle in honor, you have leave to be burned in the house, for the men will need it no more. That one hit me pretty hard. Stand out moments from their little conversation.

Jessica: 46:48

That one hit me hard but at the same time I know this is going to be very unpopular. Aragorn, your path is not the one of valor or song, but no less important. Like someone has to make home safe for those who can't go to war, and it's not as glorious, but it's still a job that needs doing. There's more than one way to bring honor to your house. I don't know. I know that that's it's getting moved on.

Jessica: 47:25

Yeah, you know, and it's hard because it's such a fraught path, because it's it could be seen as a way to make very gendered roles more palatable, and that's not really what I'm trying to say, but I can see how someone would hear it that way, and if that's the case, then I'm sorry, but I do think that there's honor in making sure that home exists for those who can't go to fight, that home exists for those who can't go to fight, and that if she left to be a trained shield maiden, as she is and as her rights, I think that it would be without honor if she didn't leave someone equally as capable as her to ensure the wellbeing of those individuals.

Jessica: 48:16

I think that's probably my takeaway. I understand the frustration a hundred percent. I absolutely agree that she is a trained shield maiden and she should not be withheld from the battle simply because she's a woman. I have no issue with that whatsoever. What I have an issue with is your duty needs to be done as well, so if you go, who picks up that duty?

Kritter: 48:41

The people still need a leader and you're the. You know you were given that task. Were you given that task because you were a woman?

Jessica: 48:49

Yeah, yes, and that is unfortunate. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. But those people still require leadership and someone to look out for them. And if you abandon them, how can you, how can you say you have honor if you leave vulnerable people without leadership?

Kritter: 49:10

I flagged a little umami here, which is, I think, almost word for word from the movies.

Kritter: 49:16

But Aragorn asks what do you fear, my lady? And she replies to stay behind bars until use and old age accept them and all chance of doing great deeds is gone beyond recall and desire. And I felt that honestly, like now that I'm kind of rehashing that conversation. Um, I'm not going to spoil anything, but there's a character in the wheel of time who is a woman, who is a like high up member of a very well-to-do important house and she leaves and, uh, she swears to be, she's trying, she goes to be a hero of the horn, right, she just wants something more than like clerical, like noble life. She wants her life to be more exciting than that. And, honestly, there's a lot of now that I'm thinking of it parallels between those two, just because it's, yeah, like yeah, I think that's a great analogy.

Kritter: 50:13

Yeah, even if that's the thing that you were like like born into, you don't have to like it, you don't have to want it and you could crave something more. And yeah, I think my preference would have been she appoints, she finds somebody else to appoint and gets to go, but is there someone else that's as capable?

Jessica: 50:38

And I don't want to undercut the heart of your question, which really, to me, is like is it fair that, because she's a woman, she got left with this duty? No, I don't think that it's fair. However, there's still honor in the task.

Kritter: 50:53

Absolutely Without a doubt. I think that my final note about these conversations is what happens the next morning, which I really, really didn't like. She literally fell on her knees and begged aragorn to let her join him as a last ditch effort and I was just like, uh, I don't like no, I get that she was so desperate, but I just didn't love the look, but I didn't feel her pain, like I ached for her.

Jessica: 51:21

Cause she's a level of frustration, cause she's also portrayed as a proud woman, so I'm sure it was no small thing for her to throw herself and prostrate in that manner. I, yeah, I'm completely sympathetic to her plight and also, you know, having a hand dealt to you that you don't want. Yeah, Also very sympathetic to that plate. But that doesn't mean you know there's still honor to be found, there's still good to be done. I hear you that's.

Kritter: 51:53

I always related to her so much because, like growing up, you I'm from the midwest and this is probably true in a lot of places, but like there were just things that they just didn't want girls to do right and so, like my family and like some of my family friends every year would take the boys, like the dads would take the boys on this like overnight float trip, and I was always like, oh my god, I want to get, like I would love to go.

Kritter: 52:17

That sounds amazing outdoor adventure, please like. That is my middle name. They never let me go because I was a girl and it just like, oh, it literally just to this day. Clearly I haven't forgotten and it was a long, long time ago.

Kritter: 52:33

Um, so I get it. I'm that. My bnao and man were like this. I get it. I get it. My B&A-O and man were like this. I get it, I get it. I feel bad. Okay, well, the Grey Company, as we're assuming they are, make it to the door, to the Path of the Dead. Gimli's blood runs chill and we get a little note that all hearts quailed, save for that of Legolas, for whom ghosts of men have no terror. I thought that was an interesting note. Did it get your attention at all?

Jessica: 53:08

It did. I think it was a nice contrast to Gimli, who's talking like quote pursued by a groping horror, pursued by a groping horror, um. So it was quite a contrast. Uh, you know, and especially for gimli, you know, almost feels like a, um, not a fraud, but maybe like a failure, as a dwarf to be scared of a cave, um.

Kritter: 53:32

So I did think that it was good contrast there that gave us a little bit of humor and then otherwise very dark situation. What kind of a dwarf am I to hesitate going into a cave that an elf would go into, or something along those lines?

Jessica: 53:48

I have a question to ask you. Yeah, do you read this chapter as all of the rangers went, or just the three named rangers went to Elrond's sons and halbrad?

Kritter: 54:02

I read it as they all went okay. Yeah, did you read it differently?

Jessica: 54:08

no, I was unclear. I, by the time I realized to ask the question, I was most of the way through the chapter and I was like I think they said all the rangers went with them. But yeah, which is different than the movie.

Kritter: 54:17

So it makes sense that you'd be like wait because they didn't. None all the rangers went with them, but yeah, which is different than the movie. So it makes sense that you'd be like wait Because none of the rangers went with them in the movies.

Jessica: 54:24

No, I don't remember meeting any other rangers in the movies.

Kritter: 54:29

Yeah, okay.

Jessica: 54:31

Okay.

Kritter: 54:33

I think they did, but it's not like somebody who stands out Well, and I who stands out?

Jessica: 54:39

I haven't rewatched Return of the King yet.

Kritter: 54:42

That's why I'm hesitating, because I feel like I'm picturing somebody that I'm like I'm pretty sure this is a ranger, but I don't think they're ever like extremely explicit about who. It is Right, and so it would make sense that you, never having read them, would have no concept that that's a ranger. If I recall, cut it If I recall, I think. Anyways, I hate being wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's how it went.

Kritter: 55:07

It's okay, all right. So Legolas eventually notes that the dead have begun following the party, and Elidan replies in the affirmative, noting that they'd been summoned. So I don't remember them being summoned. What summoned them? Do you think that felt?

Jessica: 55:24

that was what felt unclear to me so there was a point earlier, when they first got to the big scary rock, the aragorn, just kind of spoke into the atmosphere oh was that before this.

Kritter: 55:39

Okay, yes, that's on me, I must have. When I was going back and outlining, I must have missed that, because no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, because my literal next well, maybe they, maybe there are multiple stones, because literally the next thing my outline is the party reaches the stone of Eric and Aragorn takes a moment, yelling to summon the dead to follow him, calling Halberd to unfurl the banner, and then they continued riding along the road.

Jessica: 56:06

So he calls for everyone to follow me at the door, not the stone. So that was my mistake. Okay, I think the implication is that he's talking to the party.

Kritter: 56:17

That's yes, that's what I remember.

Jessica: 56:19

Okay, do, yes, that's what I remember. Okay, do-do-do. Drew. Near, he saw Aragorn kneeling while Elodan held a lock both towards him. So before him were the bones. So he says something over the bones. So yes, this is it. So he's standing over the bones, right, a mighty, mighty man. He had been clad in mail and still his harness lay there whole, for the cavern's air was dry as dust and his hopper was gilded, etc. Etc. Aragon did not touch him, but after gazing silently for a while, he rose inside. Hither shall the flowers of simple mind come. Never unto world's end, he murmured. Nine mounds and seven there are now green with grass through all the long years. He is laying at the door that he could not unlock. Whither does it lead? Why would he pass? None shall ever know, for that is not my errand, he cried, turning back and speaking to the whispering darkness behind keep your hordes and your secrets hidden in the accursed years.

Jessica: 57:18

Speed only we ask. Let us pass and then come. I summon you to the stone of eric oh, you caught it.

Kritter: 57:26

Okay. Well, I missed that completely. Um, my mistake. So they get to the stone of eric, having been followed, and erorn summons them and calls them. He unfurls the banner, which was the gift I guess arwen had crafted the the king's banner for aragorn um, and then they continued along the road and the dead followed without further ceremony. And that ends the chapter. Did that surprise you, how that all went?

Jessica: 57:57

down. It was intense. It was not what I was expecting. It was different than the movie. The way that I remember the movie, I think that it was. I think that it makes sense that it was less climactic here, because it's not the climax of the movie. Does that make sense?

Jessica: 58:20

I always felt like it was a separate climax, the way that it was represented on screen. And so here it's him marshalling forces. I did like the end of this chapter. I was like so two chapter closes in a row that were really strong closes. But the next day there came no dawn and the gray company passed on into the darkness of the storm of Mordor and were lost to mortal sight.

Jessica: 58:47

But the dead followed them and I was like, yes, so I thought that was a hell of a good way to end the chapter. I'm like, okay, we're only two chapters in and we are bringing the sauce the doom and gloom, the, the suspense, without a doubt.

Kritter: 59:10

So do you have any further thoughts before we pick an mvp?

Jessica: 59:13

oh god, uh, I did. There was one little blip where Gimli mentions Caves of Wonder below, mentions their game and that he won it by a single orc and that there are Caves of Wonder and do you think we'll ever see it? And Legolas is like essentially I told you, buddy, if we ever see a day of peace, yes, we will come back and we will see it. So we get a little call back to the bromance from before and I honestly loved it. So I thought it was great. I think that was all I really had from chapter two that we didn't touch on.

Kritter: 59:53

Okay, yeah, all right. So we've got a tradition where we pick an MVP from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music, jessica. Who would you name as your MVP this episode?

Jessica: 1:00:10

That's so hard. I think I have to go with Aragorn. He's making the hard calls. He's taking the really sketchy paths because, based on the information he has available to him, that's what it's going to take for him to be able to fight against the enemy. So I'm going to give it up for Aragorn.

Kritter: 1:00:40

That is fair. This is tricky because we've got two POVs, like two separate POV chapters, right. So I have to like I think I'm giving honorable mention to Gandalf just because he truly is taking one for the team by going and dealing with Deadathor. But I agree with you that Aragorn made the hardest of calls and is doing the most dangerous of tasks, despite much opposition, and it seems that he is so far succeeding right. Therefore, the dead is following him, dead are following him, which feels like a huge win. And so, yeah, even though Gandalf had to put up with that old crotchety man, it's going to be Aragorn for me too.

Kritter: 1:01:33

I agree, I think he takes it.

Jessica: 1:01:35

Gandalf was definitely a contender Because Denethor does not seem easy to manage and I can understand that there's value and weight to managing that situation, but I feel like Aragorn is the one who paid off in these chapters, so that's ultimately how I got there.

Kritter: 1:01:55

Just another little as official as honorable mention, but I do want to like call out theoden for kind of taking mary under his wing, because that was really sweet that was a sweet moment, but obviously nothing as intense as aragorn. So, yeah, okay, okay, same, all right, oh, let us let us know in the comments or on discord um, as always, who your MVP is for this episode. I think there's at least a couple contenders for sure, and we always love to hear what you think.

Jessica: 1:02:26

Yeah. So that's it for us for this week. We would ask you all to read Book 5, chapters 3 through 5. For next week, we would like to say thank you so much for joining us in episode one for season four of but are there dragons brought to you by your host, jessica Sadai, and critter XD? Don't forget to follow us at but are there dragons on YouTube, instagram and Tik TOK and? But dragons pod? Just one T on X. You can also find us on social media as Critter XD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We're going to continue workshopping new catch freezes through season four, so let us know on social media how you feel about this. One. Farewell, listeners. Ride unto great renown.

Kritter: 1:03:15

Bye, renown Bye.