But Are There Dragons Podcast
Episode 2: The One with a Terrible Dad, General Gandalf, & Theoden's Charge
Kritter and Jessica continue their journey through The Return of the King, embarking on Book 5, chapters 3-5. Join them as they discuss the parallel journeys of Merry and Pippin, hear their thoughts on Denethor, and spend some time picturing our beloved White Wizard cosplaying as a military leader.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Kritter and Jessica continue their journey through The Return of the King, embarking on Book 5, chapters 3-5. Join them as they discuss the parallel journeys of Merry and Pippin, hear their thoughts on Denethor, and spend some time picturing our beloved White Wizard cosplaying as a military leader.
Don’t forget to follow us at But Are There Dragons on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok, and But Dragons Pod, just one t, on X, formerly known as Twitter.
You can find Kritter at Kritter XD on YouTube, TikTok, and X, and at Kritter _XD on Instagram.
You can find Jessica by searching Shelf Indulgence on TikTok, Instagram, and X.
Music credit to: Frog's Theme by Nobuo Uematsu, Noriko Matsueda, Yasunori Mitsuda
ReMix: Chrono Trigger "Theme of Frog's" - OC ReMix
Welcome to, but Are there Dragons? A podcast where two friends pick a book at least one of them has not read and work their way through it a few chapters at a time. I'm your host, critter.
Speaker 2:And I'm your host, jess, and we're continuing this adventure with the Return of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran, and me as the Lord of the King by JRR Tolkien, with me as the resident Lord of the Rings veteran.
Speaker 1:And me as the Lord of the Rings first timer.
Speaker 2:And this our second episode of season four. We're going to discuss book five, chapters three through five, Before we dive in. Jessica, how are you feeling? What's?
Speaker 1:new with you. I'm good. I'm excited we have WotCon coming right up and so I'm very excited to see a bunch of con friends and not to take away from the podcast. Very excited to get into Return of the King, start getting into the meat of things, which I feel like we do this week.
Speaker 2:We, yeah, we definitely we're getting into into it. Things are starting to really ramp up. Uh feels good, I agree, watcon being on the horizon. By the time you are listening or watching, dear listener or watcher, it will have just happened, um, but we are on the eve of watcon and uh, it's pretty. It's gonna be a good time, I hope, as long as I can get my cosplays together and stuff. So I believe in you. Time will tell.
Speaker 1:The manic laugh.
Speaker 2:It's fine, we'll be fine. I mean, I have them already created. The problem is, now that I am with child, my dimensions are a little different, so I'm going to be tweaking them in the next 48 hours before I leave to try and accommodate the changes. It's going to be great. Which is fine, it's going to be so good. I do have a maternity shirt to replace my normal shirt for my Moraine cosplay, and it's going to be amazing.
Speaker 1:I believe in you. You're really good when the rubber meets the road.
Speaker 2:Thanks, yeah, the problem with me is I oftentimes will just wait until I have to do something before I do it, and then I'm pressed for time, you know, and then it's like a, then it's a race, it's a sprint but you're a really good pressure player Like very, very, very dangerous over short distances yes, I said that to the dog yesterday.
Speaker 1:Actually, I thought of you. That's awesome. Mini tangent coco decided to escape while we were doing yard things. Um, she took advantage of the weakness of a house guest who doesn't know just how lethal she can be over short distances, and she squirted right out past the landscaper and the house guest, and so, needless to say, mr Jessica and I were huffing and puffing and blowing our house down, trying to get her back in.
Speaker 1:We get her back in the house. She's laying there, she's pantinging, but she's looking very regal as she's just laying there looking so pleased with herself. Uh and I couldn't help it. Uh, somebody at the house guest made a comment about uh, you don't realize. Or mr jessica made a comment about you don't realize quite how quick she is, and he said yeah, for like the first 30 yards, and I'm like that's all she needs, she's, she's a threat over short distances, that's just all there is to it, she's the gimli of dogs.
Speaker 1:Yes, so anyway, that was my tangent I love it.
Speaker 2:okay, well, excited for watcon, excited to get into this chapter, so shall we? Let's do it All right. Book five, chapter three the muster of Rohan. Now all roads were running to the east to meet the coming of war and the onset of the shadow. And even as Pippin stood at the great gate of the city and saw the prince of Dol Amroth ride in with his banners, the king of Rohan came down out of the hills. So I'm sensing battle in our near future. Are you getting?
Speaker 1:that sense? Yeah, absolutely. You don't need to have seen the movies to realize that. You know forces are amassing and I felt like that the Omami started strong. In this chapter I just a little uh snippet of the vast waiting silence that brooded behind all sound and I was like what?
Speaker 2:I just got there with that one.
Speaker 1:He does ominous so well, and it's not always scary or thriller like um, sometimes it's just like that and it's it definitely sets a tone yeah, yeah, the tone has very well been set.
Speaker 2:Um, so we get a small moment with mary admitting to himself that he loved the idea of mountains marching on the edge of stories from far away, but finding in the moment that he was being borne down by the insupportable weight of Middle Earth, longing to shut out the immensity in a quiet room by a fire. So this reminded me of Bilbo in the Hobbit, always kind of like looking back, wishing he was home, comfortable in the shire. Did this make you feel any sort of way?
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly that. Wait did I say.
Speaker 2:Mary, I think I mean Pippin here. No, it was Mary. My notes is. Mary was mary my nose.
Speaker 1:Okay, it was the same quote I, oh, okay um, because it very much was very bilbo-esque to me that, um, and I don't feel like mary and pippin were ever portrayed that way to me before that they also were kind of like. I think I'm done with adventuring, definitely hear it about bilbo, can see it with Frodo and Samwise, so I wasn't kind of expecting that vibe from Mary, but I feel like he's earned it.
Speaker 2:At a certain point it's like I think we've I've mentioned this since in a previous episode and it might've it was probably during the Hobbit because of Bilbo. But you know, you can go on the best vacation in the world and at a certain point you will hit the wall where you want to go home. You know, yes, like that's just facts, and so it's just another relatable hobbit moment, I think for sure. And this is not the best vacation in the world, far from it. Um, so, yeah, it makes sense. Um, so the party makes its way up past the mustering army, through switchbacks adorned with statues of pukel men, and at the top they're greeted by eowyn with what eomer deems foul tidings about aragorn. At dinner that night, mary inquired about the paths of the dead and gets a bit of a backstory and a lot of doom and gloom. Did anything stand out to you from this whole paths of the dead conversation?
Speaker 1:um, I thought that it was great that um mary had pretty good perception here on eowyn being upset. Uh, not that I would expect Théoden to necessarily pick up on it, but I think of the hobbits as having sometimes not always, but maybe as their adventures continue, their passive insight increases and I feel like this is one of those moments where big, important people can have conversations with you without really perceiving you or seeing where you're at. Um, and that, as a bystander, he was able to kind of pick up on, uh, just how upset she was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you gotta love the hobbits when they kind of surprise you. Marion Pippin definitely wouldn't be the ones you'd pick out to be like the empathetic type and you know what. That's obviously not fair, because they they are whenever they need to be. Yeah, um, so we get a messenger from gondor bearing a red tipped arrow and asking for aid, which theoden immediately agrees to give. So this plays out differently in the movies a bit. How did you feel about the change, the difference, if you even noticed it?
Speaker 1:so I didn't notice the difference. Gonna just tell on myself there.
Speaker 2:I don't remember how that was in the movie just just there and saying where was gondor when the Westfold fell?
Speaker 1:Okay, so that does ring a bell. Yes, I didn't know if that was this part.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm just generally remembering reluctance on Theoden's part to help Gondor.
Speaker 1:overall, I think the thing that stood out to me about this is Theoden kind of pushing back a little bit on the messenger, saying isn't it true that your master knows more than he's saying? Essentially that he realizes that we're all amassed here and that there is a threat and that we're already gearing up for battle.
Speaker 1:I'm paraphrasing heavily, but I think you was more the nuance that stuck out to me that um, and kind of bolstered the opinion that I've already formed about Denethor from his interactions with Gandalf is that, you know, he's perceived kind of in a cunning light and not necessarily positively, um, but he does know more that's going on and this is a little sly on his part, um, and that I think that also in this passage is when theoden says that never in my life has the red arrow uh been used or been called right.
Speaker 2:so those were the things that stood out to me about this interaction it's not necessarily unprecedented, because it's happened in the past, but not in Right.
Speaker 2:So those were the things that stood seems to me almost like he's just a little, I don't know, like the fact that he didn't hesitate at all and he's like, obviously we're gonna go help gondor to me, well, while still, you know, engaging with the messenger and stuff, I was just like nice, I like that, you know, it would make sense to question and it would make sense to wonder where were you when we needed you? But that's the petty thing. Right and granted, in the movies he did come and he did do what needed doing, but at the same time it was uh, it was kind of a little refreshing to see here in the book that he treated it slightly differently so maybe you know, maybe he's like a fair mirror light where he, you know, got a little bit of not such a great treatment in that adaptation versus straight book theoden right, like in the, just an added a little drama, you know, because where was gondor when the westfold fell?
Speaker 2:is a fun line. Right, because yeah it is iconic it is iconic.
Speaker 2:Why do I remember it if not for that? Um, so, yeah, it's. Uh, it's nice to see theodon again. I just really like it as a character, and it's especially whenever we're comparing him with denethor, who we just met. Oh gosh, it was not the most pleasant person in the world. Um, yeah, so mary goes to sleep but is summoned again while it's still dark. Out turns out a great cloud from mordor has taken over the sky and theodon says Turns out, a great cloud from Mordor has taken over the sky. And Théoden says so we come to it in the end, the great battle of our time in which many things shall pass away. He decides there's no time to waste and calls for the muster to begin, but he released Merry from his service, intent on leaving him behind. Merry convinced him to let him ride a little longer, eowyn helped equip him with gear and they were off In the army. Mary shared a look with a young rider with the face of one without hope who goes in search for death.
Speaker 1:Any thoughts as the muster rides out. There was another quote that was in that place. I had also written down the quote that you just shared, the, I believe, from Théoden, who says for it is before the walls of Minas Tirith that the doom of our time will be decided, and I was like, wow, we, we, all, everybody gets the stakes involved. We're not holding back. I did think that Théoden's comment to Mary was a little harsh None of my riders can bear you as burden. I felt very defensive on Mary's behalf Mary and Pippin especially tend to feel like burdens at different points and that I just I got really defensive, like mama, bearish, like no, don't talk about him like that. So I'm glad that he was able to go. You know he rides with someone named Dernhelm and I have big suspicions about who Dernhelm is. But yeah, I'm glad that he got to continue on for a little while longer yeah.
Speaker 2:So, speaking of dernhelm, I mentioned the party halton edoras, uh, where theoden once again tries to ditch mary, albeit graciously, I think. Um, in my opinion, mary eventually relents, but the young writer who he saw with the look of whatever impending death, offers to let him ride with them, hiding him at first so no one would see. When it becomes clear that Mary knows the writer's name, which the writer seems almost surprised about, he gives it, and it's Sternhelm. So you have your suspicions, probably, I assume, influenced by the movies. Absolutely, do you think if you hadn't seen the movies would you have?
Speaker 2:the same suspicions.
Speaker 1:You don't think? No, I don't think that without the visual cues. So I tried to think about that while I was reading this part. I understand that it's movie bias and it's 40 years old, right, because even in the cartoons, or you know the cartoons or whatever, um, but so much of that was based on visual cue. So, um, hearing the actor's voice and seeing their face through the helm really kind of gave that away. Um, and in writing, there are no cues about, um, the writer's build per se, other than they are smaller but still, uh, well muscled and that's not the term used.
Speaker 1:But essentially, yeah, something like live, I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something like that so I mean that content was there, but I was like, in and of itself, just based on the reading, I would have no idea who dirnhelm could be um it is very uh, subtly placed yeah, I was gonna say that exactly.
Speaker 2:I feel like the hints were subtle in the sense that, like smaller, you know um, however, the build like a slider, build, uh, at the, and the mild surprise when he didn't know their name and I was like okay, why?
Speaker 2:like he was definitely giving us hints, and I feel like in the movies it's almost immediately where she's like they're like ride with me, and he's like uh, you know, my lady, so you. It happens like immediately basically in the movies, whereas here I feel like we're going to go wild before anything comes up and I'm good with it, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm good with it being more subtle and not so heavy handed. I can't wait to see what that looks like and how that reveal comes about. You know, on the page, I'm excited for it another.
Speaker 2:The other hint is that look that they shared, right, because I want to say it was aragorn earlier, or somebody commented on this like the look on her face, it's just like you know she's cold, she's I don't, she just has no hope, right. And so having that like really having that exact kind of description here is, is pretty telling too, so pretty telling. I'm, I'm, I'm sure as a kid I did not pick up on it, but now I'm like, oh, there's little hints. I know, I know that I'm looking for hints. So here they are. Uh, okay, so let me uh, well, never mind, I was just to say, if you want to weigh in, dear listener, slash watcher, if you think this is too heavy handed, or if you think you wouldn't have guessed if this was your first time, had never seen the movies, had never read the books, don't know who Durnhelm is, would you be suspicious? So let us know. Or on Discord Okay, so the chapter ends with the party departing rohan and traveling a great distance. Final thoughts before we move on uh, just it really.
Speaker 1:It really feels like it's about to get epic and it's about to get epic very soon. So through this read I was like, wait minute, how long is this part of the book? So I went back and I was like we're building towards a really magnificent fight, clearly, even though I don't know what the differences might be from book to movie. And I'm like, and we're only on chapter four.
Speaker 2:I know I was surprised last time with the fact that we ran into the paths of the dead. They're like you know, like we're like yes, eric one's already there, he's already recruiting the army. Um, in the movies it's funny because you chop, they're all chopped up and like interspersed, and so we get fredo and sam and we get everybody, and it takes much longer for that to happen, but not in the books and I think that's probably my biggest takeaway from a book experience versus movie experience no real concept of the passage of time.
Speaker 1:I feel like I've said that in every episode to one extent or another, even back to the Hobbit just the lack of understanding of how much time they spent traveling together or how long it took to get to a place, or how short you know that 10 day and all of that stuff, that entire book took place in 10 days. You know the time skew was real. I feel as a as a movie consumer is all for sure.
Speaker 2:Um, okay, let's see. Uh, so that was it for the chapter Amazing. So book five, chapter four, the Siege of Gondor. So that's quite the title. We are back with Pippin and Gandalf. Pippin is summoned to Denethor and is appointed, as his esquire mentions it might be nice to hear songs from a place untroubled as gondor is, but notes that their vigil, keeping those lands safe while not fruitless, has been thankless. So he strikes me as, dare I say, a bit of a jerk. How are you feeling?
Speaker 1:about him the same. So I go back to the insight comment earlier and apply it to pippin. And I really like these back-to-back mary pippin chapters because it really contrasts um, the two major human leaders in in the story, um, and I'm sure that's by design, right, because tolkien was far smarter than I am.
Speaker 1:uh, so so Again, pippin's like he feels very deeply uncomfortable sharing any songs from the Shire, and I feel that that level of discomfort is a form of insight, right, like there is something amiss and Denethor's motives are not good. Generally says things that always has an undertone of I'm having one over on you or I'm actually saying something kind of crappy about you, but you probably don't get it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is the vibe, that this whole interaction gave me is I'm smarter than you and you don't realize that I'm just kind of crapping on you a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, gross Jerk Bully. We don't realize that I'm just kind of crapping on you a little bit yeah gross jerk bully. We don't like it. No, like, okay. So pippin gets clad in proper livery and lives out his first day as an esquire and at the close of the day sees the same final glint of sunlight that frodo and sam had seen highlighting the crown of flowers at the crossroads back in the two towers. So I appreciated this little moment of temporal calibration. Did it help?
Speaker 1:you at all. Yes, and I really liked that term because I didn't know how to pew it, but it definitely like an alignment. Yeah, and I'm like, okay, here we are.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's how you go, like they've passed that moment, we back, we've, we've gone back in time with pippin yeah it makes sense, it makes it easier to follow, okay, so pippin meets up with baragond and as they converse they are struck dumb with fear hearing a nazgul. But it's not just one. This time it's five, swooping closer and closer to the city and they are in pursuit of fair amir, who finally made it to the city, though again the nazgul, they're in pursuit. So when things look especially dire, gandalf shows up emanating light and throwing a shaft of light at one nazgul that sought to challenge him, scaring them all away. Thoughts on the sequence.
Speaker 1:I thought it was incredible.
Speaker 1:I think there probably is something akin to it in the movie, but I don't really remember it specifically, and it's probably not in the context of helping Faramir, but I'm not 100% sure.
Speaker 1:So I do think that it speaks volumes that Gandalf didn't hesitate, right Like he wrote out on shadow facts, to make sure that Faramir can make it back into the city. I think that that speaks volumes to Gandalf's perception of Faramir and his importance Cause, again, like I've said, might've been in book one, probably book two, um, about I think, that gandalf has perceptions on a higher level, kind of like galadriel's living at you know, 30 000 feet. I feel like gandalf is probably, you know, 20 000 feet or something, and so he is vibing with the universe at a whole different frequency, um, and so for him to place that level of import on faramir uh says something to me as a reader, like okay, all right yeah, because I do believe that gandalf would save anybody that he thought he could, uh, but I do think that in these very dire times that gandalf is having to pick and choose where he's spending his energy, he definitely is.
Speaker 2:I I noted that this feels this is about as magic-y as lord of the rings gets, you know, like a, like a bolt of light that's. You know it's giving sorcerer, I don't know. And I.
Speaker 1:I don't have it teed up, but it talks about you know he is, he's shining, you know what I mean? Like he's not dampened his light in any way. He he rides out on shadow facts like a bright light. Yeah, uh, so yeah, yeah, 100 percent magic key, definitely magic key.
Speaker 2:It's not the um in the hobbit right, the fireworks in the cave where we're like, was that magic or was? Were those just fire? We're not sure at this time. No, this is Gandalf. The White True power Does magic, which is fun because I love magic. So yeah, speaking of Nazgul five, when we saw them Five we got a Nazgul sighting Just because there are five of them.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't realize. Okay, okay, we're not counting the nazgul, we're counting the number of sight incidences that we see any nazgul. I think that's more reasonable. Okay, it's gonna be a lot of nazgul if we count them individually, individually yeah, I think that that's setting ourselves up for disappointment okay.
Speaker 2:Well, another nazgul sighting, then one for the record books. So pippin describes faramir, because he makes it in as follows here was one with an air of high nobility, such as aragorn, at times revealed less high perhaps, yet also less incalculable and remote, one of the kings of men born into a later time but touched with the wisdom and sadness of the elder race. So this, to me, felt exactly right. How did you feel about?
Speaker 1:it. I loved it. So it took the perspective of somebody that I legitimately, just five minutes ago, talked about showing very good insight, and applied it to a character that we've already met. I left that interaction in that previous books, feeling like he is as advertised. He really is, you know, a standup dude and has very good motives and is pure of heart, and this validates that for me from a perspective that I tend to trust yeah, yeah it.
Speaker 2:Uh, it validated me as well. I love you know. I like fell in love with the book faramir last, last reads, or you know last book, so it was nice that uh, pippin had the same experience, basically. So Faramir reports to Denethor including the part about Frodo and his goal to reach Cirith Ungol, though not mentioning the ring. This sets Gandalf into a calculating frenzy about where Frodo would be and when. So if I didn't know the story, I'd have half expected Gandalf to ride out to go meet him.
Speaker 2:You know right Because like, why else would you be like that? Okay, where would he be?
Speaker 1:you know where would you see him?
Speaker 2:yeah, when did you see him? Where was he? So did you have the same thought, like gandalf's, about to go ride for frodo?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean not for nothing. The first half of the series gandalf rides off a lot yeah, true, just peace, I I gotta, I gotta ask half the time the irish goodbyes his way through it. Anyways, you just turn around and be like dude. We had a wizard. Where'd he go? Yeah?
Speaker 2:dang it down.
Speaker 1:One wizard yeah so yes, absolutely, and just the frantic nature of him, uh, doing the calculations to try and figure out how far the ring had gotten um, and also how intently he's watching faramir to see if he mentions the ring.
Speaker 2:It's really watching it like okay, which?
Speaker 1:again it's very tense reading it. It's very well written, um.
Speaker 2:I feel like the tension definitely plays, even as, from a reader perspective, I thought it was very well done I do wonder if I were Gandalf, you know, and granted, I wouldn't, I don't know that it would even be possible for him to like catch up, right. So maybe that's, maybe he made the calculations and determined. No, I can't.
Speaker 1:I can't catch him, you know. I mean, we don't know, we don't know what he was calculating.
Speaker 2:so that's what I mean. Yeah, because, like, I feel like if he could have caught him, like that's the number one priority, I feel like he would have, but maybe not, I don't know, I don't know. What do you think? Like wouldn't you have?
Speaker 1:if you were him, I think the temptation would be there. But I feel like even gandalf said like he can't help him anymore, and I think in this chapter he talks about like the enemy won't be defeated by the hand of man. So yeah, you know, I think that he knows that all of their hopes ride on frodo and, by extension, sam yeah, but I can definitely see the temptations yeah, no, I can'm like. How fast would it take Gwaihir to get there.
Speaker 1:But I didn't even think of that. I think I just took it as he's calculating to see how far the ring has traveled versus how far he could get or how close he could get to him. But I think that's a.
Speaker 2:I took it and I was just like, yeah, I would be surprised if that's what his choice would have been, if he could have made it so. Faramir's tale sets Denethor off and he accuses him of being a wizard's pupil and failing to bring him a mighty gift. He compares him unfavorably to Boromir, which brings Gandalf to Faramir's defense, once again in a battle of words with Denethor. So did anything stand out to you from this little exchange?
Speaker 1:Um, what really stood out to me is that it it just really highlights just how threatened by Gandalf Denethor feels. Uh, so, all of this so before it was just contentious, the comments like wizards, people are under your spell, and all of these things make it very clear that Denethor is just strictly treating Gandalf as a threat, so not only just a strong personality that you clash with. He clearly feels very threatened by him, very threatened by him. And I I don't. I'm like I don't want to make it seem like I'm participating in Boromir bashing, but I love the fact that Gandalf was like, if Boromir had gotten it, it still wouldn't have made it to you. You know, our Boromir bashing days are over.
Speaker 1:Rip, RIP. He did what he could, bro, but I do. I like the fact that he not only defended Faramir but told Denethor very plainly that even if Boromir had gotten the ring, it never would have made it to you. And even if it had made it to you, I don't trust you with it either. You could have it sitting under a mountain and it could still turn you. So I thought I that's about as plain and direct as gandalf gets, and I dug it.
Speaker 2:I was here for it yeah, I guess if we're sitting here with a total denethor bag, then we have to treat him, you know, with the same amount of I don't know lack of decorum that he treats everybody else. I guess it made me so mad the way he treated Faramir it just ugh.
Speaker 1:I wrote. I was like that depends on the manner of your return. And I wrote next to it sets my teeth on edge, yeah, and he calls Frodo a witless halfling. I got all puffed up, I was like.
Speaker 2:What Excuse me?
Speaker 1:Like Frodo was an elf friend. Okay, we do not talk about our darling boy like that yeah, yeah, this man is learned, he knows stuff.
Speaker 2:Okay, um, all right. So when denethor dismisses everyone and pippin and gandalf return to their room, pippin asks gandalf about frodo, and Gandalf expresses extreme worry, though the fact that Gollum was with them didn't seem to surprise him much. In fact, he suggested, despite likely intended treachery, gollum might inadvertently help them. Given what we know happened, do you think Gandalf's prediction panned out in that way inadvertently helping them?
Speaker 1:I do. I know that we are currently up against a wall, with Frodo on one side and our boy Samwise on the other, but I do choose to believe that Gollum inadvertently helped them. You know, not that it wasn't without peril or danger, but in his own way Gollum accidentally helped them get through a very tough place.
Speaker 2:I mean, he got them essentially into Mordor one way or the other, I guess.
Speaker 1:We just got to get Sam through the door now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, true, I also noted that. Uh, gandalf guessed that aragorn had revealed himself to sauron right when he's doing all of his like calculations and everything trying to figure out exactly how the board is being placed. He's, he's just like I don't know why sauron's doing what he's doing and then he just starts kind of like extrapolating. He's like you know what? Something must have happened. Oh, I bet aragorn looked revealed himself and I was just like man, this guy in the insight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so to me that was like long sight, and he showed his math you know like that's how I perceive that that he is so in tune with what's going on again at a higher level. He's like what would force his hand and is able to intuit that based on you know, knowing all the pieces well enough yeah, I think that's really good storytelling on tolkien's part too, to choose like these povs right.
Speaker 2:So you've got pip in one place, mary in another place and they're witnessing all of these super important things happening with these like super important people. Not that they're not important, but if it were just gandalf, for example, in minas tirith and he's fighting with denethor, you could get that scene right in some way because they're saying words out loud. But if pippin wasn't there with gandalf in this conversation, we would probably have never gotten gandalf's inner model.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't have to explain it to anybody. Explain it, it'd just be explain it.
Speaker 2:It'd just be going on in here, but instead he's kind of explaining it out loud. Granted, he might be talking like me, he might be probably talking out loud to himself, but it would have read weirder, I think, if Tolkien was like okay, gandalf's in a room by himself and he's saying these things. So I think it worked out story-wise to have him kind of go through all of this around either Denethor or Pippin. And yeah, mad respect to Gandalf because he's just putting things together basically and putting Denethor in his place as he should. So Makes me so mad.
Speaker 2:Speaking of the next morning. Denethor sent Faramir on a fool's errand to guard the river in Osgiliath and Faramir went hoping that Denethor would think better of him if he returned. So I keep coming back to this. I keep coming back to it Now that he's done that. I really dislike Denethor. How would you rate him on a scale of 1 to 10? As far as good person?
Speaker 1:Negative garbage. I don't know. I really have have distaste for him. The way he's portrayed in the movies and based on the book, it was well deserved. Um, if anything, the additional context just makes him more, uh, dislikable. Um, it's just a little bit more rooted or grounded in um his character. I feel like there's a lot of context that's added here that helps me understand why he is the way he is, but it does not take away from how truly dislikable he is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like all the context here does make him more substantial as a character, because in the movie he's very much just like this guy loves boromir, he hates faramir, he's a bad dad right, but it's not grounded in anything.
Speaker 1:And john noble I love john noble as an actor and I thought he did an incredible job portraying and sometimes it's more fun you know, as a theater kid dropout like it's more fun sometimes to play the not so nice characters um so it's not a knock on his performance by any means, but no.
Speaker 2:This context explains to me what it's rooted in and I'm sure that that was subtext for the actor, but knowing it now I'm like oh, he really kind of is despicable yeah, and the thing about it like knowing that he's not only just like mean, but he's super intelligent, right, kind of magical.
Speaker 1:And arrogant.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that kind of lends itself to his arrogance and his disputes with Gandalf, which I think are definitely more substantial in the book than they were in the movies. Right, those were very short and these are like a little more drawn out and intense. Um, so yeah, I'm enjoying if that's the word learning and experiencing more of denethor, if for no other reason than that he just feels like a much more fleshed out character and much, much easier character to truly hate. Yeah, I don't know, that's where I'm at, so yeah. So the next day, news came of the inevitable. The enemy won the passage of Anduin of the Anduin and Faramir was struggling. Gandalf left to help and came back heralding the entrance of the king of Angmar, lord of the Nazgul, captain of despair, to the fray, thus far commanding from the rear. Not by the hand of the sorry, sorry, not by the hand of man shall he fall. So it is said, this feels like it once again upped the ante a little bit. The stakes are getting higher. How did it hit for you?
Speaker 1:uh, definitely so again, it's been so long. I don't remember a standoff with like a primary Nazgul and Gandalf, so I was all for this like a one-on-one showdown. So bring it on. And Gandalf does not disappoint, right Like he goes in very OP and to your point, there is no whiz, bangs or anything like this is truly magical, powerful wizard in his prime. So I really I dug it, uh, and I like the fact. Um, you know, the chapter tells us that gandalf essentially takes control or takes ownership of the last defense of Gondor. Mm-hmm, you know, because nobody's, really nobody's manning the wheel, so to speak. Mm-hmm, so Gandalf's like I don't know, we're still fighting over here.
Speaker 2:Right. So Faramir's men were ultimately forced into a full retreat, were almost completely routed, if not for a sortie that Denethor allowed to ride out alongside Gandalf in all of his glowing glory again. But it wasn't enough to save Faramir from being darted by one of the Southron men and falling to be carried in seemingly lifeless by the Prince of Dol Amroth. Carried in seemingly lifeless by the Prince of Dol Amroth. Seeing Faramir, denethor retreated into his tower and those who looked upon it saw flickering lights in the windows. And when he came back his face was gray, death-like.
Speaker 1:What did you make of all of that? So when I read first looking up in the tower and they see the pale light and gleamed and flickered, I made a note that said, what are you up to? And then it was said he was gray and more death-like, I was like does he have a Palantir hidden up there?
Speaker 1:Because oh, the signs are signing a little bit in that direction you know, when aragorn did the thing with the palantir, he was very transformed and he looked very gray and death-like, as I recall. So that's my prediction. Um, I definitely made note of it. Um, so we'll see if that comes to pass.
Speaker 2:So, finally, the city was besieged, sea ginsens were brought and used to catapult flames and, eventually, the heads of those who fell defending us Gilead over the walls. This was dark. Did the darkness surprise you?
Speaker 1:Um, no, but I think that if I had read it as a kid I would be a little bit more startled. Um, yeah, knowing what I know about the author and seeing how he's treated war to this point, he doesn't really pull a lot of punches. Yeah, um, you know, and war is brutal. So, uh, I, I did write, yikes, you know, I was like, but this is not ever, uh, billed as a kid's story. True, you know? True, so it's, it's more intense and it's expected.
Speaker 2:So as for the siege, uh, I wrote down a little bit of literary umami here. Um, for yet another weapon. Swifter than hunger, the lord of the dark tower had dread and despair. I don't always pick up the, uh, the darker umamis, but that was like okay, it's getting dark, it's getting scary. It's getting dark, it's getting scary, it's getting dire. So Denethor, like many in the city, seemed to be in a state of extreme despair and gave rule of the city over to Gandalf, as you mentioned, and he stayed at Faramir's bedside. That's something I didn't expect, but definitely felt like the right call Does Great.
Speaker 1:General Gandalf seem appropriate to you. Uh, not necessarily great general, but uh, somebody who has proven over and over again that he's got greater insight to the bigger chess board, uh, does seem to be a good fit okay, yeah, it's uh.
Speaker 2:I don't always think of gandalf as a military leader, but you know what he can. He can do it all. It turns out, denethor isn't exactly comforting the men who try to report to him either, ultimately deciding that the West had failed and he and Faramir should go to a pyre to burn like heathen kings. He tries to release Pippin, but Pippin pushes back, following him on his funeral march and then leaving to find Gandalf, bids the servants to drag their feet while preparing the pyre and, upon meeting Baragond, told him about the situation and asked for his help too. Not bad for a little hobbit, huh.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was very proud of him when he wrote when Denethor is saying I will go to my pyre, I wrote what in the unhinged steward are we doing right now? Like, what are we like? Oh, okay, so, and I remember it somewhat from the movie, but I kind of remember it as him just burning Faramir. I don't know that I got that he was going to die too or sacrifice himself. I didn't really get that. So I was glad. Honestly, I was like if, if, we have just Pippin there singing a song. I was just relieved that Pippin was going to like get help and go no, no, no, delay, delay, delay.
Speaker 1:Right Man's banana chips, I'll be back, I'm going for help. I was like, yes, that is the right answer. Don't get me wrong. The song was beautiful and I love the song, but when you got somebody who's crazy and setting things on fire, you go get help crazy and setting things on fire, you go get help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that was like. You know pippin, having seen what he saw in faramir, probably inspired that more. Also, you know, obviously, if he's gonna see somebody who's still alive get burned to death, it makes sense that you would try to save them. But I have a feeling that you know pippin recognized that gandalf really respected faramir and that faramir was an important person to this whole ordeal and that Denethor was just going to give up without him actually having died yet. Pippin was like, oh no, it's up to me which I think was great Good for him to really take the reins.
Speaker 2:So ultimately, in the end, a huge ram, gr Grand, advanced on the gate and ultimately overtook it. The lord of the Nazgul entered the city and all fled, save one, gandalf, who bid him to go back to the abyss, and nothingness prepared for him. But as the wish king replied, something else could be heard Great horns of the north wildly blowing. Rohan had come at last. What a way to end the chapter. Just reading that gave me goosebumps, like thoughts highlights. I don't know that I love that.
Speaker 1:So rohan had come at last. I had that's my last bullet and I was like that's good, because the last couple of chapters every chapter so far in this book has ended very strong. But this was strong and also positive, so I was like cool beans, we stretched the tone up a little bit. I'm into it, let's go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. I don't know, rohan had come at last. I don't know, it felt good. It felt good, I still got the goosebumps. They're persisting. Okay, so good, I still got the goosebumps, they're persisting. Um, okay, so is that is it chapter four?
Speaker 2:no, we already did chapter four, book that was chapter that was chapter four, book five, chapter five, the ride of the roherum. So we are back with mary, who really misses pippin, so much in fact that he wishes he was a tall writer like aomer who could just blow a horn and go galloping to Pippin, so much in fact that he wishes he was a tall rider like Eomer who could just blow a horn and go galloping to Pippin's rescue. So I thought that was rather gallant of Mary. How do you feel about it?
Speaker 1:I love them. So it's a lesser bromance it's not, as we don't spend as much time on it as we do with Sam or Frodo or with even Legolas and Gimli, but I love that. I love that kinship, I love that one of them will find themselves wondering how the other is doing. And here we are, and he wants to ride off and save his friend. And I'm just like, I love you guys.
Speaker 2:So sweet. Hobbits are so loyal, like my lord lord, they're just the best. I don't know they're tough to beat um. So this was a random little addition to the books that weren't not, was not. In the movies we meet the wild men of the woods, yeah, who came to assist theoden, offering scouting services and to guide the army through forgotten roads. So I had completely forgotten about this from the books, did it, I assume, surprise you totally, totally, and I like the way that they are described.
Speaker 1:Uh, my bullet says the wild men are pretty cool. Uh, horny brow. Their language is a little bit different, you know, they're reclusive. The part that stood out to me is that they're making this deal with Théoden. Théoden clearly knows how to communicate with them, which that's a great little piece of knowledge to have. It's great. And they're doing it basically because they don't want them to hunt them like beasts anymore.
Speaker 1:I flag that as well. I was like, oh, was that a thing you guys were doing? Cause, like, these guys don't seem like they're doing anything. If anything, they're helping you just to rid their lands of works, which is another thing that stood out to me that these, uh, much like the ants and the um, the wild trees, didn't like orcs. The wild men don't like orcs either, and so they refuse to fight for them, but they're willing to show them a new way. Um, so, yeah, I think that I loved that because I've never heard of the wild men before, so it's brand new, fresh content. No, um, no movie bias there. But also I was like, oh, did you guys really do you hunt?
Speaker 2:for you. Is that the thing you were doing? That a thing kind of terrible? Um, yeah, but you know, I guess men generally aren't always known for their understanding and mercy when it comes to people who are different than them, right? So this is realistic to say the least. Unfortunately, you would hope that the men of Rohan would be better than that, but I guess perhaps not that the men of Rohan would be better than that, but I guess perhaps not. So the wild men of the woods guide them, they take them on these secret paths, trying to basically save time, because I didn't mention this, but basically they are behind, they are worried they're not going to make it in time to Gondor, and so this was just kind of an extreme boon for these guys to show up and offer them a shortcut, essentially. So, after guiding them, the wild men vanished into the glooms, never to be seen by riders of Rohan again, which I took as good. That means they're not hunting them anymore, right? Like, yeah, that's how you read.
Speaker 1:That's how I chose to take it as well. I want to believe that you're not going to hunt people who actively aided you Right. Right, I would like to think that we're not hunting anybody who's not actively harming you too, but I'll settle for. Yeah we made a deal so let's leave him alone.
Speaker 2:Uh guys, all right. So theoden's company, make it to the battle and we get some sick battle speeches from theoden too in fact, and I would like you to rate them okay.
Speaker 2:So I don't know what the scale is gonna to be Like. You create the scale and there's going to be two, so this is the first one. Now is the hour come. Riders of the mark, sons of Eorl Bows, and fire are before you and your homes far behind. Yet, though you fight upon an alien field, the glory that you reap there shall be your own forever. Shall be your own forever oaths ye have taken. Now fulfill them all to lord and land and league of friendship. I might have done that wrong, but yeah, no, it's.
Speaker 1:That's what it is league of friendship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great, great to lord and land and league of friendship. That's excerpt one. Yeah, I think we'll do one. I have to rate and then you think we'll do one at a time. Do I have to rate and then you read We'll do one at a time. I want you to, I want you don't. You don't have to rate them like one, like best and worst. You can do, like, on a scale of one to five, on a scale of, you know, underwhelming to overwhelming, whatever you want to do it's.
Speaker 1:it's your choice I'm gonna call that one a big fat four a big fat four. Okay, um, you know what? I'll even give it a 4.5 out of 5 because it is, it is inspirational, af it is.
Speaker 2:I was moved they haven't popping off he is um he is.
Speaker 1:He knows how to talk to his men.
Speaker 2:So 4.5. So, after looking upon the agony of Minas Tirith and briefly quailing, morning came and light flashed in the city and Theoden's strength was returned. He straightened and cried out in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before. Here it is ever heard of mortal man achieved before, here it is arise, arise. Riders of phaedon fell, deeds, awake. Fire and slaughter spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword day, a red day. Air, the sun rises. Ride now, ride now, ride to gondor.
Speaker 2:That was that one and that's my five yeah, okay, I feel like he does ramp it up and honestly I feel like such a dweeb because I can't. I can never do it as good as the actor in the movies and he's he, just he was so rip bernard I know rip um, he was amazing, he was amazing and the fact that that was like straight out of the books too, like no need for edits, really it's perfect.
Speaker 1:So because I recognized a sword day, a red day, I was like, oh, I'm pretty sure this made it in. Um, so I will say that the great boom and flash of light that happened before he gave this speech dork that I am, I was like this feels a lot like D&D inspiration, because it really looked like perked him up and made him very inspirational.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I just love Théoden Book, théoden slays Movie Théoden as well, because this showed up in the movies and he did it way better than I could have. Um, okay, so this chapter ends with a noble and terrifying charge by theoden and his men with a battle song on their lips.
Speaker 1:thoughts before we pick an mvp the host of rohan burst into song as they slew. I had very mixed feelings about that, but you know they were also inspired and they were being carried into, so I gave them a pass. But it was a very weird thing to read. I was like, oh, being married while you kill is a definite vibe yeah, it's its own thing.
Speaker 2:I just got this like. I got this impression that they were just like swole, I don't know, the the battle, not battle rage, but just like they were just overwhelmed by the fervor, exactly Like the fact that Théoden was like apparently not an old man anymore, but like a glowing beacon of valor and they're all around him and they're they're pushing back this army that was winning five seconds ago.
Speaker 2:And everyone's feeling like we're doing something and we're like fighting evil, especially because, like I would get it if it was like you know, one country fighting another. It's like, oh I mean, why are they fine? We're not sure this is evil, like they're going up against evil. So I didn't pause for a second. I was like, yeah, you sing while you slay those bad guys. Get in there. It's fine with that, not a problem.
Speaker 1:So, uh, that's all I had because, as you pointed out, it was a very short chapter.
Speaker 2:It was, it was okay. So, uh, we've got a tradition where we pick an mvp from the chapters we've read for each episode. Cue the music jessica, who would you name as your MVP this episode?
Speaker 1:I went back and forth a lot um on this read because we saw some really critical uh choices being made. I think I'm gonna give it up for Theoden okay, is that who you wrote down? That is is who I wrote down I am sticking with it.
Speaker 1:I was like, is that just because he was, you know, chapter five? But there was a lot that led up to that as well. So, yeah, I mean I feel as though there were several very good choices in this read. So you know, if the listeners, slash discorders, slash watchers want to shoot me down with a better option, I'll take it. Um, but ultimately I'm gonna go with bayadin okay, he is my runner up.
Speaker 2:Uh, he is. He is my runner up because, like dang, he was, he was spitting rhymes, like he was so inspirational this, this, uh, I guess this last chapter, but then also in his other chapter he was. He had an amazing quote in there as well. Um, the fact that he just like popped off at this battle and just became this amazing fighting warrior being just so impressive. Um, so, yeah, big mad respect for theoden in this chapter, but I also have mad respect for gandalf and I think that's who I'm gonna pick. Um, I, I also want to give a shout out to pippin because of his quick thinking when it comes to faramir.
Speaker 2:This was a tough, tough, tough chapter for mvp. Um, but without gandalf, faramir 100% would have died. So he did his magic thing. He saved Faramir as he was riding into the city and then he went back out and helped him fight again. He backed him up with Denethor, he became the general essentially for the entire defense of metastirith, and whenever the lord of the nazgul showed up, he stood his ground. And so all of those things to me were like, yeah, I think, on a scale of epicness, the andolf to me won mvp yeah, I went back and forth between those two.
Speaker 1:specifically, I also heavily considered Pippin. Ultimately, for me, it just felt like this portion of the read was Theoden's moment. Yeah, you're not wrong.
Speaker 2:He was a close second for me for sure, so I'm glad you picked him Because it made me picking Gandalf hurt a little less. At least he got props.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it made me picking gandalf hurt a little less yeah, it made.
Speaker 2:It made my gandalf pick hurt a little bit less, yeah, okay. So we are reading for next week, book five, chapters six through eight. Not quite as long of a read, um, on that one as we've had for the last two episodes, so easy time to catch up if you're behind um. And we just wanted to say thank you so much for tuning into our second episode of season four of but are there dragons brought to you by your hosts, jessica sadai and me, critter xd? Don't forget to follow us at but are there dragons on youtube, instagram and tiktok? And but dragons pod? Just one, t on X. You can also find your hosts on social media as CritterXD and Shelf Indulgence. That's it for today. We're workshopping new catchphrases for Season 4, so let us know on social media how you feel about this one. Once again, we thank you, listeners of the pod. Good fortune, go with you for your support and friendship. Bye.