Beyond the Bedroom: Exploring the Depths of Intimacy and Connection

It’s not all about the physical union, although that’s a part of our discussion. From emotional to spiritual, we dissect what builds a connection that withstands the ebb and flow of life. We ponder why kissing can be the first thing to go when troubles brew in paradise. We also share tales from the therapy couch that reveal the raw vulnerability involved in physical closeness and why, sometimes, it’s easier to bare our bodies than our souls. Please tune in for a candid look at the dance of communication, trust, and the sometimes uncomfortable steps we take toward achieving true intimacy in our relationships.

Our conversation invites you to confront the barriers that inhibit deep connection with valuable insights to help you navigate these often choppy waters. And before you go, don’t forget to check out our podcast recommendations because, just like a good cocktail, the right advice can be the mixer you need for a healthy dose of relational bliss.

Resources for Further Exploration

Books:
The 5 Love Languages by Gary Chapman: Offers insight into understanding and expressing love beyond physical touch.

Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel: Explores the balance between intimacy and sexual desire in long-term relationships.

Podcasts:
Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel: Real-life couples therapy sessions that delve into intimacy issues and relationship dynamics.

The Love, Happiness and Success Podcast by Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Covers various aspects of relationships, including emotional intimacy and connection.

Workshops and Courses:
Local or online couples workshops focusing on building intimacy, as the Gottman Institute offers. 

Online courses like Udemy or Coursera focus on relationship building and emotional connection.

Therapy and Counseling:
 Resources for finding a relationship therapist include the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT) or Psychology Today’s Therapist Directory. Apps like BetterHelp or Talkspace that provide access to counseling services from home.

Activities and Exercises:
 Suggestions for “intimacy exercises” couples can do together, like the “36 Questions That Lead to Love” developed by psychologist Arthur Aron. 

Guided meditation or mindfulness apps that offer couple’s practices, such as Headspace or Calm.

By incorporating expert insights, practical advice, and personal stories, this episode aims to enlighten listeners about the broad spectrum of intimacy in relationships, emphasizing that connection extends beyond physical interactions.

Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com

Transcript

Cleveland Oakes: 0:02

This is Cleveland.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:03

This is Lindsay.

Cleveland Oakes: 0:04

And this is another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know, lindsay, what are we going to be talking about today?

Lindsay Oakes: 0:09

Sex.

Cleveland Oakes: 0:11

Oh yeah, sex and intimacy. I want to call this one Beyond the Bedroom, exploring the depths of intimacy and connection. But first, lindsay, tell me something interesting that you made this week.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:23

What did I eat this week? I did go back to Archie's tap and table and I brought you to have the plant-based tacos.

Cleveland Oakes: 0:29

So if that was the best thing you ate this week, that was also the best thing that I ate this week, and you were not lying when you said it was a delicious delight.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:38

So good. Lentils, butternut squash, some kind of mushrooms like an avocado smash, pickled veggies, pickled turnips. Who knew?

Cleveland Oakes: 0:49

Yeah, delicious.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:50

Awesome.

Cleveland Oakes: 0:52

And I thought, Alex, we workshopped an interesting drink together. I think what we'd land on that final name of it.

Lindsay Oakes: 0:59

The Salty Peach, the.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:01

Salty Peach.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:02

Which was a martini made with bourbon gin, peach liqueur, ginger liqueur and the spritz of like a gin infused seawater or something Fantastic.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:14

Yeah, whatever it was, it was great. I want to nominate it. This is going to be an inside joke for Best of the Bronx.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:23

Best of the Bronx.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:24

Best of the Bronx.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:26

Yeah, it's so funny because we live in such a small community and the newspaper here only talks about things in our tiny community, so isn't it amazing? Yeah, I think they had their own Best of the Bronx and they just chose different places on the island.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:40

Next year for the Best of the Bronx. It needs to be Best of the Bronx podcast. The Devil, you Don't Know. That's right. But if there was a Best of the Bronx contest, at least for that particular cocktail. New cocktail of 2024, the Salty Peach.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:54

So good, so good.

Cleveland Oakes: 1:55

Salty Peach, salty Peach.

Lindsay Oakes: 1:58

But anyway, what was your Devil of the Week?

Cleveland Oakes: 2:01

So something that I struggled with and something that we talked about before was being a parent of an adult child. You like to think the idea that when the kid is 18 and they move away, that you don't worry about them. But I remember a colleague of mine once said, bigger kids, bigger problems. And I was thinking about one of my son who's out of state and living in Florida and some of the challenges that he's gone through. And it was just a conversation that we had and nothing crazy. But I just didn't agree with him on it and I want everything in my power to be like hey, I want to save you.

Lindsay Oakes: 2:37

Yeah, that's the hardest thing about having kids of that age. I know I struggled with that too with my oldest one, but in the past year or so I've just stepped back and I'm like he's got to make the mistakes he's going to make and he's got to figure it out. You can't swoop in and save them all the time.

Cleveland Oakes: 2:54

Yeah, I think I have a strong relationship with my mom and dad and stuff that they tried to tell me and steps that they folks they my folks wanted me to take and I just didn't listen and I just have to understand that it's the same way on the other end.

Lindsay Oakes: 3:06

Yeah, you made your mistakes and you're fine now you came out on the other end of it.

Cleveland Oakes: 3:11

Yeah, I, I, I, yes. I did so. With that, let's transition into the main topic, which is intimacy. Right, Um, Lindsay, when you think of intimacy, what does that mean to you?

Lindsay Oakes: 3:25

intimacy means so much more than sex. Right Means having an emotional connection with your partner in addition to having physical connection, being able to be vulnerable with them, have a level of respect for them and to just be able to hold space for them emotionally, I think is the most important thing. There's trust involved, right, and this is a way for you to be in a relationship with someone in a way where you share information, you share physical touch and you know and you share you know your most intimate moments.

Cleveland Oakes: 3:57

I think, for for many people, when you think of intimacy, especially here in the West and due to popular culture, they only think about sex. But for me, intimacy is far more than sex. It's intellectual, it's experiential, and that you have activities together. And it's spiritual. And to me, intimacy is a complex and multifaceted concept that, like you said, extends beyond just the, the, the closeness of a physical and a sexual connection.

Lindsay Oakes: 4:24

Right. I think the more experiences you share with someone right than the deeper of a bond that you have with them.

Cleveland Oakes: 4:31

Yeah, so let me start off with asking you a few questions about emotional intimacy. Sure, so what does emotional intimacy mean to you?

Lindsay Oakes: 4:40

It's an emotional connection, a real connection with your partner. You can hold space for each other. You're able to hold space for all of the emotions that come up or the things that don't come up yet. It's having trust. There's no fear of judgment. You're able to be who you are and express how you feel.

Cleveland Oakes: 4:59

Yeah, when I think about couples who are struggling with communicated communication, I often say that they lack emotional intimacy, in that they lack empathy of even understanding each other.

Lindsay Oakes: 5:10

I often think, though, that when that is lacking in a relationship, it's because it's actually lacking in the individual right, because if you can't be vulnerable with someone and you can't allow someone to be there and hold space for you, then you can't really have that emotional connection. And I experienced this with a couple this week who said the male said that he didn't know so much about her past before, and that was a big red flag for me, because they are married, they do have children, and this has been driving a wedge in their relationship, because now it's really impacting it. And, you know, people don't talk about things We've talked about this before they get married, they don't set expectations, and now all of these things that really significantly impacted one half of the couple have come up, and now, years later, it's causing friction in the relationship.

Cleveland Oakes: 6:09

Yeah, one a couple I saw many several years ago. The wife described as her inability to express her feelings as walking on eggshells. And to your point. That lack of emotional intimacy stops you from being authentic and stops you from being true to one another.

Lindsay Oakes: 6:30

I actually tell all of my clients that are married or if they're in relationships and they're in individual counseling. And I say that you cannot, because what happens when you're walking on eggshells like that is that you are compromising who you are and your own authenticity, but you're not comfortable talking to someone, you're not comfortable being who you are, and so, instead of telling your partner your feelings, you tiptoe around them because they're not able to hold space or, you know, hold on to your emotional experiences responsibly.

Cleveland Oakes: 7:01

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's really a good point. I really can't really go more than that, but I'll just sum it up by saying, yes, emotional intimacy allows individuals to be their authentic selves. It allows you to share joy. It allows you to share fear and hope and disappointment, and that's really important, because you can't share just hey, how are you doing today without your partner, either turning the conversation about them or spazzing out? Then there is no conversation there.

Lindsay Oakes: 7:30

Well, and it's also important to be able to share those little moments, and those are really important, and that's a lot of feedback that you get in therapy, I'm sure as well, and I get that is one partner comes home and the other one is occupied with something and doesn't even greet them and ask them how the day was, and just that little question, right, is enough. You and I do that all the time here how was your day? How was your day? We sit down together at night for dinner or after clients to watch something and we check in with each other. People don't do that.

Cleveland Oakes: 8:01

Yeah, yeah, that's true. I want to move on to the next topic, and this is one that that also we can probably talk about is and I think you had clients that were like this a couple of months ago was that intellectual intimacy? Is that, is that inability, Like they were trying to connect on an intellectual level? But one spouse is like well, I like Beethoven and he likes the honeymooners.

Lindsay Oakes: 8:23

Oh, yes, that was not the example, but yes, that is an example. That was not what happened in the session with me, but right, because you have to be able to share all of these things. Right, you have to be able to have conversations that are interesting, like, for example I know, if I want to know about something, you know all sorts of random knowledge and you like to research and read. So if I'm curious about something, I ask you about it and you usually do the research and we have conversations about it. But it's very important to have that intellectual connection as well, to be able to learn new things, to grow right, even to take on like a new hobby or a new interest with your partner.

Cleveland Oakes: 9:04

Intellectual intimacy encourages curiosity. It encourages growth and mutual respect for each other's intellect and thought process. And what I like about this idea of intellectual intimacy is that we are both very intellectual. We like different things, but there's times I'll give you a, for instance where I'm sitting down and playing a video game, and right now I'm playing Baldur's Gate 3. Probably we'll be playing it for the rest of the year and there's a puzzle that I can't solve and I'm like, damn, I wish Lindsay was up, because I know.

Lindsay Oakes: 9:32

Oh, I love doing the puzzles on your video game. You're always like I'm gonna cheat and look it up on Google and I'm like, no, just stop and let me look at it. And then you get all impulsive and you want to just do it again. And I always solve them when I'm up. Yes you, yes you. But usually play after I go to bed.

Cleveland Oakes: 9:47

So yeah, which leads us to the next thing, which is experiential. Experiential intimacy, right, and experiential intimacy is built through shared activity, shared activities and experiences. It doesn't require deep conversation. So if you are a spouse that likes to talk and a spouse that likes to be quiet, you can bond over a common interest, you can bond over something, and yes, we're going to bond this year because we decided we're going to actually do more hiking.

Lindsay Oakes: 10:10

Yeah, so that's going to be something that you and I are going to do together to share a new experience, because we do spend a lot of time together and we do things. But we've both kind of expressed an interest in that and we live close enough to places. We do have a lot of experiences together and I think the important part about that is the you know, compromise and the turn taking. For example, last night you really wanted to go out together and I was so tired and you were like, oh, we don't have to go, that's fine, we don't have to go, we don't have to go. But I was like, no, I can go with you, I'm fine to go, I'm tired, but like, I'm willing to take one for the team and go out for dinner even though I'm tired which my time with you has never taken one for the team.

Lindsay Oakes: 10:57

Don't make me feel bad.

Lindsay Oakes: 10:59

I'm just go ahead, though, but I know, because I, you know I had had a long week and I was really exhausted and I just and we had been out the night before, but I just wanted to stay home and you'd had a long week and on Fridays you love to go out at the end of the week, but you and I also work very different jobs, so I have the time to, if I'm working from home, to have some downtime, to breathe, to meditate, to take some time. And you know, yesterday I went shopping with Westchester's finest housewives and Wegmans at one PM on a Friday. So when you got home you wanted to do something and you know I respect that, because there's a lot of times I always say that you do things for me that I know you don't want to do.

Cleveland Oakes: 11:43

But that experiential piece is important. I had a friend a few years ago who was, who was living with a woman and they were having a tough time in their relationship and then they went out for one weekend and it was like amazing, they had a date. And he said it was the first time they went on a date in a year, which I was like what, like, how, like, how, yeah, and it's like you really need those experiences. You know, we're going to Barbados, we're going to Nashville, we're going to Tortola and we do all these amazing and interesting things just because we happen to have the wherewithal to do so. However, if you are a couple that might not have money, there are many experiences that you can do together that don't cost money.

Lindsay Oakes: 12:24

Hiking yeah, free weekend experience right, drive up state an hour and get out of the car and walk.

Cleveland Oakes: 12:30

Surviving a ride on the sixth train walking through Times.

Lindsay Oakes: 12:33

Square. No, I don't go to the sixth train. That's all you. I'm not going to share in that experience with you, I'm sorry.

Cleveland Oakes: 12:39

But it is important to not take your spouse for granted. I think one of the things that we both would tell clients is you must continue to date your spouse.

Lindsay Oakes: 12:46

Absolutely, and I tell clients that all the time, and especially when relationships start to go south, I have a lot of clients who can't tell you the last time they went on a date together. Well, we don't have anything in common, ok, but you've been together for 17 years, so at some point you loved each other enough to date and to get married. And I said so. Somebody's got to compromise.

Cleveland Oakes: 13:09

Right, right. I want to move on to the spiritual piece, and spiritual intimacy involves connecting on a level that transcends both the physical and the intellectual and is often related to shared beliefs and values and a sense of purpose. Sometimes, folks and when you see it a lot here, in a melting pot like New York, where somebody may be a Christian or Catholic and the other spouse may be Jewish or somebody may be Muslim, and so sometimes in those cases it makes that mixing of faiths, makes the marriage hard. But as a therapist, how would you suggest that folks? You know, maybe not necessarily in those cases, but how important is spirituality, especially when somebody doesn't believe what you believe?

Lindsay Oakes: 13:51

Well, I have this with a client now who is very religious, she's Christian, and she said everybody she meets is an atheist. And it's like if that is a non-negotiable for you, then you just can't be in the relationship with that person, right? If you have some kind of religious belief that is so important to you that it is non-negotiable, then that's not the partner for you, right? You and I have very different kind of spiritual or religious beliefs, but we get along well. We also talk about them, and not that I can completely understand all of the things that you believe, and I'm sure you don't understand all the things that I believe, and we've had conversations about it. I respect your choices and you respect what my beliefs are and I think that that's really what's key.

Lindsay Oakes: 14:36

And even Lori, who we had on a few weeks ago, she has very different religious beliefs than her husband has, and that's not a non-negotiable in relationships. If you have those beliefs, then go ahead and have them. I don't have to have the same ones, right? So if it's a cultural thing and you would, it's really important to you, then it's not the relationship for you, right? But there also has to be a compromise, right?

Cleveland Oakes: 15:00

And I've got a friend. I'm not. I'm not going to. The names of the innocent will be protected, so we'll do. We will give him a rhyming name. We will call him Bave. Bave is from Brooklyn.

Cleveland Oakes: 15:12

He's 53 years old, oh, my God, and he often he's an atheist and he's a scientist, right, which is fine, I'm fine with both of those but he is so inflexible in his thought that when he meets a woman that he likes I remember there was a young lady that they were dating, they were going, things were going well, and then she asked him to like, come to like a spiritual healing session with her, and he was like that's it, I'm out, she's, it's done. And I was like what's wrong? Did she hurt you? No, did you have bad conversation? No. Was the sex bad? No. And I was like so why, bave, are you breaking up with her? Because she believes in magic?

Lindsay Oakes: 15:51

You know, the world would probably be a better place if everybody believed in magic. Right During COVID I got you to participate in yoga knee draw with me. It didn't go well and we had a fight because you kept checking your phone and it kept ding-ing during the relaxation class. I miss it, but that's a topic for another day, but I want to give it another try.

Cleveland Oakes: 16:14

But here's the thing is the lot of those things that you taught me in yoga and e-dra. It was great you didn't. The psychic sleep, that's what it was.

Lindsay Oakes: 16:20

Well, you can't be psychic sleeping if you're on your phone. Give me another shot. Sure, I'll give you one more chance. But those meant a lot to me, like I recently asked you to teach me how to breathe, Because I want to share experiences with you and you know, honestly, the phone, when you do those kinds of experiences, the phone shouldn't even be in the room. When I go to meditation, the phone is usually not even in the room.

Cleveland Oakes: 16:42

Yeah, when we go see Zila, what's the first thing she does?

Lindsay Oakes: 16:44

You have to turn it all the way off right, Because it's a distraction.

Cleveland Oakes: 16:49

And I would like to say and we often rail against social media and phones and all this technology that we have, but I would dare say that technology kind of blocks spiritual intimacy. What do you think about that?

Lindsay Oakes: 17:01

Oh, it's interesting. I think technology blocks a lot of intimacy because I think it's distracting, it's addicting and it's just generally unhealthy. I mean, think about when we were in the park in Pennsylvania and every single person in that park was on the phone. Our phones were in the car and we spent our time alone walking and watching all of these people that were so they were together, but they were so disconnected, right, and so even those experiences can be physically intimate experiences, but not if you're allowing all of these outside factors to come in.

Cleveland Oakes: 17:40

Yeah. So before we move on to physical intimacy, spiritual intimacy is important because it can provide a profound sense of unity and understanding and offering support and strengths and life challenges, and so you don't have to believe the same things, but it is important to have some type of spiritual practice with your spouse, even if you're not religious. Would you agree with that, lindsay?

Lindsay Oakes: 18:03

Absolutely. I don't think I mean most people wouldn't describe themselves as religious. Right, I describe myself as spiritual, and there's also so many talking points about it. Because even if you are religious and I think you and I have talked about this before you share these, if you share all of these religious texts or these spiritual texts, even if you're not subscribing to a specific religion, the messages are the same in these books, right? The Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada. The messages are the same, right? So it actually begs me to ask is the spiritual piece like serious, a really serious issue in relationships, or can people be more flexible with it?

Cleveland Oakes: 18:49

Yeah, and I think it leads to. I think lack of spirituality, and a lack of spirituality in a relationship leads to rigidity, which leads to inflexibility, which means that if you are rigid and inflexible and you can't spell, if you think everything that your wife believes in magic or your husband leaves in science, that you're not going to get along.

Lindsay Oakes: 19:08

Right, yeah, it's well because. But that's also a lack of flexibility, right, and the lack of compromise. Like you're saying, you don't need to understand everyone's beliefs, but you should respect them, Right? I don't get why you do that, but that works for you, right, and some people need that connection in the form of religion, right or spirituality.

Cleveland Oakes: 19:32

Yeah, that's good, that's good. So we're going to move on to our final piece of this, which is which, with some of the piece of the Rosasthans, which is physical intimacy. Physical intimacy is perhaps the most widely recognized form and involves physical touch and closeness, because they don't have intellectual or spiritual porn, they have physical porn. So why do you think people are put so much emphasis in sex and why is sex so important?

Lindsay Oakes: 20:00

Well, I think having that physical intimacy with your partner is a deeper way to connect with them. So I think that's why it is so important. But it's so much more than that. It's just the expressions of like love, hugging, cuddling. I believe I read somewhere and you're the researcher but when couples are struggling in their relationship that they actually stop kissing on the mouth before they stop having physically having sex and penetration. Did you know that? Yes, I think you told me that before.

Lindsay Oakes: 20:32

Right, Because the act of kissing somebody on the mouth is almost more intimate right Than just having sex.

Cleveland Oakes: 20:40

Yeah, having sex can be a very impersonal thing, but as we move on to the next segment, which is the many layers of sex and relationships, I just want to sum this up and that the most fulfilling relationships involve a blend of all these five things that we talked about, and it's multi-dimensional, and each form of intimacy can support or enhance the others and contribute to a robust and resilient relationship. Let's move on to our next topic, which is going to be all about sex, which is the many layers, though I know you guys, if you ever see me in person and I say save me, save me.

Cleveland Oakes: 21:19

Now I'm just playing, I'm just kidding, but sex can be a significant component of intimacy and romantic relationships and it contributes to the bond between partners in several meaningful ways, and that it's crucial to understand that, while sex can enhance intimacy, it is not the sole aspect of a deep and fulfilling connection. And, lindsay, what do you think about that?

Lindsay Oakes: 21:41

I agree with you. I think it's just one part of the relationship, because I actually said this to a couple this week who is having a lot of struggles and I said to them when was the last time you had sex? And they couldn't remember. And I was like that, right, there is a problem, right, because that means, at the end of the day, you're taking all of these resentments and then there's no connection, right?

Lindsay Oakes: 22:06

And this is a couple who was so mad at each other this week in therapy that they sat in separate rooms and I'm on the zoom and they're fighting from separate rooms in the house over the zoom and there's no intimacy in that relationship. There's nobody looking at their partner and feeling, you know, sorry or regretful for their actions or behaviors. Instead, it's just this, you know, all out argument and there's not been physical intimacy in years.

Cleveland Oakes: 22:37

What's so weird about sex and relationships is, I find it's I find two times a paradoxical things, right, when I had a client sit down with me once and he was talking about, you know, a conversation that he was scared to have and I was like, but you have sex with them, right? And the person laughed and they were like, oh my God, my parent just said the same thing to me Like why can't you talk to this person about your discomfort but you sleep with them?

Lindsay Oakes: 23:05

Well, that's so interesting because I talk about that too, right, and the deepest connections in relationships come from that vulnerability, which we're going to talk about a little later. But we can move it forward and talk about trust and vulnerability. I think that we live in a society where you often hear everything that's wrong about yourself and nobody gives positive feedback. It is very unusual for someone to say, hey, great job, you could do 99 things perfectly and a hundred thing you do is wrong. And that is what people come down on you for. And I think people are afraid to bring their true feelings to a relationship. And it goes back to what we said before right, walking on eggshells, not being able to take accountability. So if I come to you and I have an opinion about something and I say this is how this makes me feel, if you're not receptive of that, then I'm not going to tell you next time. And then I walk around on eggshells because what if I do tell you? If I tell you, you might react in an adverse way, and that's a struggle.

Cleveland Oakes: 24:09

One of my colleagues used to call it seven adaboys don't equal one fuck up, and you never want to be in a relationship like that. The other paradoxical thing I find is people who want to have sex but then they fight all the time and then they're like we don't have sex and I remember a few years because you know why it's not hot.

Lindsay Oakes: 24:26

OK, it is not a turn on. It is not a turn on, and I say that. I say that to clients all the time, especially for women. Yeah, Right. You always say men can always get it up and have sex. Not well, sometimes most of the time right For women. It is that big emotional piece. If I'm telling you how I feel about something and you're not receptive of it, then like it's not hot, I'm not going to want to get in bed and have sex with you.

Cleveland Oakes: 24:50

Well, I'm going to talk about our favorite 90 day couple for a second Jasmine and Gino, right? And one of the problems that that Gino has with Jasmine is Jasmine, you know, you fuss with me, you nag me so much I can't get it up, but it does happen with men too, right? So I want to go back to a conversation I had with some friends of mine that were having some difficulty in their relationship and they weren't being intimate with one another. And excuse me for the folks out there that don't like me cursing, I will apologize. Why do you have to curse? Well, because this is, this is I'm going to curse, because this is literally what I said to them. Oh, ok, how do you going to fuck with somebody when you can't fuck with that somebody, right? And they both stopped and they looked and they were like wow, right. And so, in a clean way to say is how are you going to be intimate with somebody that you aren't happy with, right?

Lindsay Oakes: 25:37

Well, when there's no other intimacy, right? How are you going to be physically intimate with someone when there's no emotional intimacy or experiential intimacy, or you don't have anything else happening together, right? I mean, if you're going to do that, you may as well just have a friend with benefits that you're like. Oh, today I'd like some sex. So let me call them, right, I think that's you know.

Cleveland Oakes: 25:57

And it goes back. But, like I said, that goes back to this idea that physical sex goes with trust and vulnerability. A lot of times when I sit down and I talk, and the emotional expression right I'm not comfortable around you.

Lindsay Oakes: 26:11

And a big thing with the trust and vulnerability too, is that, especially when I have clients who struggle with their weight or their body image, right, and they say, oh, I can't get an intimate relationship, I think, hmm, well, you know, if you don't feel good about yourself, the focus is all on that right, that part of you that you're not happy with, and so you can't be vulnerable and you can't let go and enjoy the experience.

Cleveland Oakes: 26:37

Right, right, it's all that, especially and I'm not, I'm not a woman, so I can't speak for women but what I've found that with I can Go ahead and if I say this and it's wrong, please correct me but what I found with women is that trust is important. If they do not trust you, like I remember many years ago, I went to a workshop and it was about orgasms and the person and I think you remember that somebody else, I think you and I went someplace similar and it was like the instructor asked like how many women have never had an orgasm? And if there was like 40 women in the audience, 30 of them. That is so unfortunate, yeah, I know, but you trust me, you are open with me, and one of the reasons why our sexual compatibility is good is we trust each other. But if you are enemies with somebody, if you don't trust anybody, you will never open up enough that, especially for women, that you will feel comfortable enough to let yourself have that orgasm or that release.

Lindsay Oakes: 27:35

Absolutely. I do want you to know. You're not getting any tonight, though, because you left the dog food spoon in the sink this morning. Oh no, I'm just kidding. But no, I agree with you, right, and I think that you also.

Lindsay Oakes: 27:46

You can't hold on to these resentments, and we talked about it in last week's episode. You have to let go of the small stuff. People fight about the stupidest things, and I you know I shouldn't say that, but it's true when I see couples at therapy, it's like that's not even a big deal, like why are you fighting about that? That is just to me it's dumb, and I'm always like you know what? It's not even really about that I said. It's about years and years of resentment that you have, and now it's coming out because he eats too much or she watches this on TV or whatever it is.

Lindsay Oakes: 28:20

But the real issue is right that there aren't emotional connections with people and they're not doing things together, and then it comes out as there's no physical intimacy and then they start to argue about things that are just ridiculous to argue about, and I'm like that's just not even the issue. The issue is all the years of repressed stuff that you haven't addressed and resolved in the relationship and now it's coming out like, oh, he's not attractive because he snacks too much, right, and things like that. And these are actually things that come up right. Or oh well, he didn't do the dishes, what? So what? Throw him in the dishwasher and turn it on or go do them together. I mean, you and I actually do household chores together, sometimes at night, and you're like, oh, it's kind of nice when we just do it together, because we're still spending time together.

Cleveland Oakes: 29:09

One of the things that Gottman says in the book the Seven Principles of Making your Marriage Work is that for many women and I often tell guys this in session and they're blown away because many men I was like, well, I wish my penis was bigger and I wish I had more, you know, I wish she was more sexually attracted to me. But Gottman says, guys, this is going to be a big one for you. It's almost like going. Vegan Women find housework sexually attractive.

Lindsay Oakes: 29:34

Oh, oprah used to have a sex therapist on that said that she used to say to men the quickest way to a blowjob is to change a light bulb and bring out the garbage.

Cleveland Oakes: 29:43

Yeah, and I've had clients and friends sit down and tell me like, oh man, my wife won't have sex with me and my wife doesn't do this with me. And I'm like, well, what do you do when I go home? And they'll be chill and it's like, what? Like, nah, man, that's her job, the cook and the clean and to do the dishes and do the and it's like, and it goes back and we're going to move into our next piece, which is going beyond the physical, which is cultivating a spectrum of intimacy. But it sounds like, Lindsay, that that fifth piece, that physical piece, that in order for you to have that physical piece, you really have to have those other pieces already in place.

Lindsay Oakes: 30:14

You do. You have to have those other pieces in place, otherwise life is just really monotonous. We go away, we travel, we have experiences together, and some harder than others. But I mean, I think our first few trips together were challenging because we're so different, but then we've just come to an agreement, right?

Cleveland Oakes: 30:34

You know you got me thinking about Barbados. Listen, last summer in Barbados, last spring in Barbados was challenging because you were like co-driving with me as I'm on the other side of the road.

Lindsay Oakes: 30:43

But I'm not even talking about that, but that stuff is funny. Right, when I go back, that stuff is funny. But I talk about like when we went away the first time and you were so scared and I'm like what the hell is wrong with this guy. Why can't he just enjoy himself and you know, and things like that. But also we have and I didn't have this in my first marriage because he wanted me to do everything side by side on vacation.

Lindsay Oakes: 31:04

It's like if I'm laying in a beach chair and you I think last year in Barbados you're like I'm snorkeling and I'm like, ok, have fun, I'm going to read my book. And you don't care and I don't care. You walked down the street. You're like, let me go get some ice for our cooler and grab some water and come back to the beach. And I'm like, ok, do you want me to come? And you're like, no, I'll be right back, just read your book. Right, and it's being able to also understand like part of the connection is like what you said earlier getting your partner Right, we don't have to do every single thing together. We can still have our individuality, but also come together and have a connection.

Cleveland Oakes: 31:41

Yeah, that's going to move us on to our next piece, which is cultivating a spectrum of intimacy, and it's like one of the things that Gottman talks about it's turning towards, and so one of the first things that I have on my checklist is regular check-in conversations. It always, once again, amazes me, and I'm going to talk about my. He probably listens to the show, but many years ago I talked to my ex-brother-in-law good guy, great dude and he would talk about his difficulty about talking about his sexual needs with his wife, or they would talk about how he didn't want to talk about what position worked for him or what, and I was like dude. But when she makes your food, and when you guys make food, do you ask her how much salt she was in it, or does she ask you? So why can you have that conversation on one end but you don't have a regular check-in when it comes to sex or even anything else?

Lindsay Oakes: 32:36

I don't know, because we check in regularly.

Cleveland Oakes: 32:38

Oh regularly.

Lindsay Oakes: 32:38

I always say to you, how's your mental health Right? And you'll ask me the same thing how was your day? We sit down together with the Queen mom for dinner, who has recently imposed new rules upon us. There are new rules.

Cleveland Oakes: 32:49

Here's the edict.

Lindsay Oakes: 32:51

Right, we have to let her know every time we're departing, before we go. We have to let her know when we have returned. We have to let her know when we're recording now. So whole list of rules. But, we do. We check in with each other, and we check in with each other regularly. And because we know each other so well and we're so open with each other that if something feels off, we ask.

Cleveland Oakes: 33:12

It's amazing. There's a song, I think it's called Separate Lives, but it's so difficult. Love leads to isolation, and so you build that wall. You build that wall, you make it stronger. I'm getting ready to go. Oh, that's right. You have no right to ask me how I'm feeling. I think that's a Phil Collins yeah, phil Collins song Separate Lives. It just all came back to me.

Cleveland Oakes: 33:31

But that's the thing is, people build separate lives in relationships. A former friend of mine used to call it married, but still looking, and it's because you're trying to be this solo individual. It really breaks your relationship Apart, right, so that even goes back to the physical intimacy pieces, shared hobbies and learning experiences, rituals. Right, you tried to teach me psychic sleep. I was psychic phone watching, but if you gave me an opportunity to teach me psychic sleep again, I would love it and I could tell you on my deathbed, one of the fondest memories because I'm in the future already and I'm thinking about my life is flashing before eyes.

Cleveland Oakes: 34:08

One of my fondest memories is an old man taking his last breath. Is going to be the moment, not even some of the sex we have, and I'm not going to say it's awesome, because it is, but it is, but it is. Those are those moments of silliness, right Of the psychic sleep of us doing the breathing class together, where I felt like a fool of climbing. What was that mountain? What was that volcano? Les souffris, oh and. But those things I'm going to remember just as much or even even better.

Lindsay Oakes: 34:39

Absolutely. I mean that was yeah, I mean we do. We have a lot of fun together. We, I mean even today. That text you sent me this morning was hilarious, right, we had a good laugh, but we get each other and we have that connection.

Cleveland Oakes: 34:51

Yeah. Nat King Cole says in the song I remember you. When the when the angels call and ask me, you know what was the thrill of them all? I will tell them I remember you and I think that's a really important thing that you would want to if. If anybody were to ask you about your partner, you know I remember you and I always thought that was a beautiful lyric.

Lindsay Oakes: 35:12

I agree, I agree, but let's move on.

Cleveland Oakes: 35:15

So we're going to move on to navigating challenges. And what is the? The barriers that lead to you? The breakdowns in intimacy, right In common barriers. The intimacy are how and how couples address them, include communication, include stress and include past traumas, and I've encountered all three of those things in in my own practice. But let's talk about. I want to start off with you and talk about communication issues.

Lindsay Oakes: 35:40

I think communication issues are right and I can use an example of a client that I have right now who the girlfriend kicked him out and his anger issues. And what I love about him is he is not a client that you would normally see in therapy. I always say that he's a Puerto Rican guy, you know, big macho guy, and he came and he's like, oh my God, I hit rock bottom, right, and this is like not a guy who you would ever see in therapy and he says that every week. But he's like I got to do the work. He's like I don't want to, but I got to do the work because he said I want to marry her and I want to have a family with her, but it ain't going to work like this, right.

Lindsay Oakes: 36:19

And so the communication pieces big struggle, right.

Lindsay Oakes: 36:22

He had a lot of trauma, rough upbringing and now he's learning how to communicate and this week our whole session was role playing because now, with the being kicked out, the relationship took a step back or a few steps back, and now he doesn't know how to navigate conversation and so he said I don't understand.

Lindsay Oakes: 36:45

Can you just like tell me how I could start the conversation? He said I think if it starts I can have the conversation right. But it's being able to communicate your feelings, your emotions, and I think for him it's a balance of still feeling like a man and being who he is, but being able to also be sensitive, and you know he's. You know people struggle to communicate because communication is hard, and I say that because you don't know how it's going to be received and it can be the complete opposite of what you want it to be and that's why people don't communicate. But communication is important because it gets you to the solution faster than if you don't communicate. And when you don't communicate, the resentment builds up and builds up, and builds up, and then it does become a barrier to the intimacy.

Cleveland Oakes: 37:36

Yeah, so the only thing I have to add to that is that it's important to develop active listening skills and sure that when your partner speaking, that you are truly listening, not just waiting for your turn to talk. I've never listened to me, I was just saying you just think I don't hear you. Acknowledge their feelings and their perspectives that make them feel heard and understood. Also, never say you express yourself clearly. Always use eyes.

Lindsay Oakes: 38:01

Yes, I always tell my clients that, even if you did something to me, my feelings that are associated with it as my stuff to deal with, and so that's why I always say, when this happens, this is how I feel and so I don't want to feel this way. I know I need to resolve it. It's a trigger from wherever it's a trigger from. Can you try something different so that I feel differently in this situation? And that's what I say, because when you point the finger and it's you, you, you. Now we have the shame and blame game and we've created a new problem on top of an already existing problem.

Cleveland Oakes: 38:38

Right, so I want to move on to the next barrier, which is stress. External stressors, such as job pressures, financial difficulties or family issues will often spill over into a relationship, reducing the time and emotional energy available for nurturing intimacy. Stress leads to irritability.

Lindsay Oakes: 38:55

Well, you know the biggest stress relief for me.

Cleveland Oakes: 38:57

Well, that's why we're talking about sex withdrawal and neglect in the relationship. So, lindsey, what are some tips and what are some advice that you would give to folks that are dealing with stress in their in their relationship?

Lindsay Oakes: 39:09

Have a self care routine. We do that. We take the dogs for a 20 minute walk at night. Even if we only have 30 minutes, we go out for 20 minutes, spend time doing things that drain that emotional battery exercise, meditation, breathing, just being active, doing things challenging your mind, but, you know, distracting yourself from the stress and also learning how to you know how the stress impacts you. I always tell my clients and I always tell you right, like, where does it come in your body? Right, look for the signs that you're starting to get stressed out and then start to manage it. Then, and that's what self care is when you have a toolbox of things that you can do, the stress is less because you have a set of practices in place. If you wait until you hit rock bottom, then the stress is too high.

Cleveland Oakes: 40:02

Yeah, yeah. And before we move on to the next topic, because you covered that clearly is, you're right, manage, stress together, support each other. That's one of the goes back to Gottman's principles of turning toward instead of turning away. It makes me think of that song lyric even though we ain't got money, honey, I'm so in love with you you know I said it wrong even though we ain't got money, I'm so in love with you, honey.

Lindsay Oakes: 40:24

And Zach Brown says right, we ain't got a lot of money, but all we need is love.

Cleveland Oakes: 40:28

Yeah, and that's true, right. So, and then prioritize the relationship.

Cleveland Oakes: 40:32

Money makes it easier but, money makes it a hell of a lot easier. See, I could accursed for those of you who say it occurs a little too much. I could have said a stronger word. Let's move on to past traumas, which I think is going to be our final. Yes, that is our final segment. Past traumas, including previous relationships issues, childhood abuse or other significant negative experiences, can lead to trust issues in a new relationship fear, vulnerability and other challenges that obstruct intimacy. I had a couple of a while ago that both of them had traumas and they and those traumas left them to not be able to trust each other.

Lindsay Oakes: 41:08

Well, everybody has trauma, right, Right, some more severe than others, and we can talk a whole episode on trauma. But trauma is not just being the victim of a violent crime or being raped or, you know, losing somebody tragically, but trauma can just be being teased, right, and not feeling good enough because someone said something bad about you. So trauma shouldn't be mistaken as something that you know is really severe or tragic. Right, it's trauma can be little as well, and it could just be the person who didn't tell you you were good enough. Because what happens with those things is that impacts us, because I think you and I talked about this today but people hear things about themselves and then they start to believe them, right. And so when it's that kind of trauma, it impacts you.

Lindsay Oakes: 42:00

Right, I'm not good enough, I don't look good, I'm too fat, I'm ugly. Why would this person want to be with me? Right? And when it's something like sexual trauma, you and I have both had clients that have experienced sexual trauma in childhood and everybody who has experienced even a similar kind of trauma in their adult life, right, it comes out in different ways. Some people become very promiscuous. Some people avoid sex altogether, right. Some people really, really want the intimate connection of sex and they don't feel like their partner gets that piece of it. They want more than just the actual physical act. They want all the emotions and the touching and things with it. So no matter how you've experienced trauma, it impacts you in your intimate life.

Cleveland Oakes: 42:47

One of the things I want to talk about in my own personal experience and I want to give a shout out to Big Cleave, who taught me many lessons Early on in the first part of our relationship and you know what we stressed each other out. There were times that you were going to dump me. There were times that I was going to dump you and there was one particular time it was probably over like Cheetos or Rice Krispies or something stupid and innocuous that I was complaining about it?

Lindsay Oakes: 43:12

definitely wasn't Cheetos, because I'm vegan, yeah, you're vegan Maybe.

Cleveland Oakes: 43:16

I had the Cheetos and I stained up your clothes.

Lindsay Oakes: 43:17

I remember one time I I hope you didn't bring non-vegan food in my home.

Cleveland Oakes: 43:21

No but I remember one time I was complaining about you to Big Cleave.

Lindsay Oakes: 43:25

Oh, I know what it was.

Cleveland Oakes: 43:27

Well, that's it.

Lindsay Oakes: 43:28

You had your friends over to my apartment and I cooked for everything, and then you just frickin' left and left me with a sink full of dirty dishes and dirty glasses and you didn't clean anything.

Cleveland Oakes: 43:38

That's exactly what it was oh yeah. And Big Cleave brought out the point to me you ain't do dishes, yeah, you ain't do. He just laughed right. But what he?

Lindsay Oakes: 43:46

said Because you went home and complained. Oh, she's mad at me.

Cleveland Oakes: 43:48

But what he said to me was and he talked to me about my last relationship before you, because it was very traumatic and at times, even though we've been together for eight years, some of the trauma from that last relationship pours over right. And what he said to me before after he laughed at me, for you had your buddy over there and y'all cooked and then you walked, and then you really walked out the house and didn't help it with a dish. He's like boy, you stupid as hell. And then the next thing that he said to me is that, listen, she is not the woman that hurt you, she is not the person that hurt you. You need to give her a chance. And what I've seen destroy relationships in, especially in couples relationships, is where you have people are coming in with all these bags and a lot of times I use this in reference to women where, well, I have baggage, I have all these bags and it's like a good man is the man that will do what big.

Lindsay Oakes: 44:40

Everybody's got baggage.

Cleveland Oakes: 44:41

But the good man is what the good was. What Big Cleave did in the case of my mother is I will pick those bags up in addition to mine, and I will carry them with you, yeah.

Lindsay Oakes: 44:50

And boy did you do that? Because I still say that to this day. Right, you are really a remarkable person because and I know you don't like when people talk nice about you, because I could see you getting uncomfortable here but yeah, I thought, my God, what kind of man raised four kids and actually wants to do this again.

Cleveland Oakes: 45:10

Let's do it again.

Lindsay Oakes: 45:12

I know you'd probably have another baby if I would let you.

Cleveland Oakes: 45:15

I hate to say yes, I would like to see what a Lindsay Cleveland collaboration would come out to you no not that one.

Lindsay Oakes: 45:25

I'm like 18 years old, 18 months away from a Caribbean house yeah, I know, listen, we're trying to do it up.

Cleveland Oakes: 45:31

Oh my God, I said the other day and I shouldn't say this but I saw a co-worker of mine who's 51 and he just had a baby and he was playing some soothing music in a conference room, sitting in a conference room by himself, and I was walking by with another colleague and he was like, oh man, that music's really relaxing. And I say to the guy I was like you're sitting in this conference room relaxing because you're 51 and debating, doing something foolish to yourself, and we all just started laughing and I walked away. But no past traumas, the get back on track. It is important that you leave those past traumas behind or at least trust your new partner to help you work through those past traumas.

Lindsay Oakes: 46:14

Right. I disagree with leaving them behind, because I think our experiences shape who we are. We carry them with us and, as Gabor Maté would say, right, when we look in a mirror, we have to learn to see ourselves clearly, and that means looking at all those parts of us that are painful or not so easy to look at, right, and then being able to have compassion for ourselves and being able to say we can live in relation with these things, but they don't define us, and then we can move on and just take them with us. Right, and that's also ties back into the importance of communication, especially if you have experienced trauma. Yeah, right, especially a sexual trauma, because that can really impact the physical intimacy in a relationship. Yeah, right, that is very important.

Cleveland Oakes: 47:06

So, as we sum up this last piece, I'm going to sum up the key takeaways from this is to address past traumas effectively. Lindsay stated you have to have open communication. We will always tell you to seek therapy, build trust gradually. Right, you don't have to. This was a gradual dance of Lindsay and I learning to trust each other. We didn't get to this great place in our relationship where we only fuss every once in a while.

Lindsay Oakes: 47:28

Right, right, but we communicate, and I think the other really important piece in a relationship that you and I have is that a divorce is non-negotiable. Right, like you, are loyal to the core, and that is one of your most wonderful character traits, oh thank you very much.

Lindsay Oakes: 47:50

The EU are willing to do all the work and you're adamant that, like no, I would never walk away and I will make it work. And that has opened up our lines of communication. I mean, we have experienced a lot together, right, you've got the four kids, I have the three kids. We have been through hospital stays, mental health issues, college tours, college movements, residential things, your father's, you know death, and we just work together all the time to make things work, because that's how a relationship should be and that's, I think, why it's so hard working with couples. Right, and I love working with couples, because I'm always pro working it out.

Lindsay Oakes: 48:33

And sometimes the couples just can't and you'll even say, no, they're not going to work out, I don't think they're going to, they're meant to be.

Lindsay Oakes: 48:39

But I'm always like I want them to right, because you and I overlook all of the adversity in our relationship and all the struggles and at the end of the day, we sit down together and, even if we have an argument, we clear the air right or if we don't see eye to eye and we make it work. And that's what's important and that's why, for me, the couple's stuff is so hard, because it's like why are you fighting about such stupid shit? If something happened to that person tomorrow, you'd be sitting at the funeral crying Right, was it really? I don't ever want something to happen to one of us and the other one to be like, oh well, we weren't speaking when this happened, right, or I couldn't overcome this obstacle or this struggle, and so that's why the communication, the experiences and just sharing trust and vulnerability is so important, because, at the end of the day, you want to go to bed in a good place.

Cleveland Oakes: 49:33

And on that note I really can't wrap it up there, because you took it back to bed, because you want to go back to bed in a good place. So some resources that you guys can reach out to, can look to, are some books, which is the famous book the Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman.

Lindsay Oakes: 49:51

Mine is Acts of Service. So, keep emptying the garbage and cleaning out the sink.

Cleveland Oakes: 49:58

Acts of Service, which is one of the five love languages and it's going to get you guys lucky. This book is by Gary Chapman. It offers insight into understanding and expressing love beyond physical touch. There's also Mating and Captivity by Esther Perrell, and this explores the balance between intimacy and sexual desire in long-term relationships. Some podcasts that you can listen to, besides the devil you don't know, or where should we begin, and which is also by Esther Perrell, and the Love, happiness and Success podcast.

Lindsay Oakes: 50:27

Oh, I've got to listen to those now. I do spend a lot of time in the car, you know, unfortunately. Thanks for filling the tank with gas today. That's what I act as a service. That's right.

Cleveland Oakes: 50:37

Because I'm trying to get lucky.

Lindsay Oakes: 50:41

You don't have to try. Oh, I don't have to try.

Cleveland Oakes: 50:44

So this has been Cleveland and this is Lindsay, and this has been another episode of the Devil. You Don't Know If you like what you've heard, rate and review us on iTunes and Spotify or whatever platform you are listening to us and please, if you have questions, we might have a segment coming up soon. Email us at gettoknowthedevil at gmailcom if you want your question read on air. Indeed, I think we're upon the right of our female yeah, yeah, yeah, don't we a.