The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
The Devil You Don’t Know is a candid mental-health and culture podcast hosted by married counselors Lindsay and Cleveland Oakes. Through humor, personal stories, honest disagreements, and practical psychology, they uncover the hidden patterns affecting our relationships, identities, families, and emotional lives. From mindfulness and healing to marriage, society, and the everyday messiness of being human, Lindsay and Cleveland explore what it takes to recognize our patterns—and choose something different.
The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
Escaping the Rat Race: A Perspective on True Freedom
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What if true freedom isn't about financial success or material wealth? Join us as we reflect on our recent journey to the British Virgin Islands, where we found ourselves inspired by the contrasting lifestyles we encountered. We explore the illusion of freedom in American society and ponder what it truly means to live autonomously, free from social media and consumerism pressures.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Freedom and Autonomy in Society
Speaker 1this is cleveland and this is lindsey and this is another episode of the devil you don't know currently being filmed or taped or recorded in paradise lindsey . What are we going to be talking about today ?
Speaker 1freedom and autonomy one of the things that made us think about this episode is , every time we are on vacation , we always look at how unburdened the folks are in many of the countries and places that we travel to , that they don't have the same capitalist system and the same burdens of social media and constantly constant media . And so Lindsay and I'll let her definitely speak for herself , after being down here a week or so in the British Virgin Islands was listening to a song by Keto Reimer and the Edge called Free , and got inspired that she just wanted to do an episode about freedom and what it is .
Speaker 2Right , and I also think we talked in our last episode about the gentleman Elvett who owns the establishment where we're staying , and he said one of the things that he loves about living here is that he feels free all the time .
Speaker 1And when you , when he said that I want you to just give us a little bit more context to to what he said , I think he expounded on that a little bit more .
Speaker 2Right . So I of course made him an offer , trying to buy this unit that we're living in for a couple of weeks , and he said that his son is the one who runs this business for him , which we had talked about , and his son is tired of the rat race . Now he's living in the UK . He was in like a high kind of like high position in hospitality somewhere running a whole chain of restaurants or hotels , and he told his dad if something happens to you , I'm coming back there and I'm running the bar and restaurant and the hotel . And I said to him do most people leave ? And he said the young people leave because they feel trapped here and 90% of them come back because they're freer here than they are in the rest of the world .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's interesting , right , because so many people come to America and don't mind the noises in the background . Those are just the noises of the tropics as the band is prepping at . The Elm Band is prepping downstairs . But most of the what's interesting is like in America . We have these concepts and these ideas of freedom , and it's always based around money . I remember a good friend of mine who's passed away . He used to say that her husband would say money might not buy me happiness , but it'll sure get me the yacht that'll let me sail up to it . And so I think sometimes in our capitalist cultures and not that it's saying that , listen , I'm not hating on the amount of money that I make or the home that I have or the or the financial freedom that I have , but I think in our countries we get too caught up on the idea of freedom as being like a material thing . Right .
Speaker 2And being American , I think , do you agree ? With that I agree . I agree because how many people do I see at work that come to america for a better life and they work harder for less than the people who are actually born here and live here or live in america legally right and who are citizens yeah ?
Speaker 1one of the things that we actually um had a conversation the other morning at work when we came , when I came in and I was talking about a documentary that I found on YouTube several years ago that spoke , that wrote that documentary was talking about is how this culture here is designed to just make more ignorant people , to keep you in a perpetual state of teenage ambition and teenage dreams so that you continue to spend money . And this idea of the illusion you know we're all cogs in the machine , unfortunately , and I think more and more of us feel that way as we go along but the illusion that that this thing is a factory that makes more ignorant people because that's what feeds the economy .
Speaker 2Right , I definitely agree with that . I was just distracted by the sound of the band warming up downstairs . The Elm tones are playing tonight . But I think , yes , I agree with what you're saying and I think you know , in order to be free , it's almost like you have to be more attached to you know the financial piece of it , do you agree ?
Speaker 1Yeah .
Speaker 2I was thinking that today , because we travel so much that we had a couple of rainy days at the beginning of the trip and I said to you yeah , we go away so much , I'm OK to just relax inside or sit outside in a covered area because we do travel , but we talked about it today how few people actually do travel and do things . And so you're right , whenever we go anywhere , I always want to kind of keep moving forward on a plan to spend most of my days in a place like this .
Speaker 1Yeah , and one of the things that makes me think of , especially when we think of American culture and capitalist culture , is based on meritocracy right , and meritocracy is this idea and we've seen it , especially with kids . We met a young lady out here We'll make up a name , the name Allie that talked about coming and setting up out here and sailing on a sailboat and the freedom that she had from it . And a lot of times when we think about the American education system and what we have set up in America , it's a system of meritocracy right , where you have to fit in a very , very narrow category of social educational development in order to succeed . Right , absolutely .
Speaker 2I agree , and I think one of the things that I've come to the realization about recently is what's so frustrating about my day job , you know , which , in relation to counseling , is just , you know , working with children and families , but in a different capacity than therapy , and one of the frustrating things is that about probably almost every family that I see really doesn't have any goals or want any more than they have , and I'm sure that that comes from a cycle right of not knowing how to do things to free yourself from a situation .
Speaker 1And what's interesting , this idea of meritocracy or this idea that I have to fit into a structure or fit into a system , it goes back to people pleasing right , because meritocracy means that you're only worth what you bring to society , and that's what happens unfortunately in in our culture . Right , that you're only worth what you bring , and if you do not bring anything or what is thought to be valuable to the greater culture , you're cast aside . And it was one of the funny things as we were talking to Ali and she was talking about , you know , we were calling people near Dewells and she said wow , that's what my family thinks about me , but I'm down here working on a charter .
Speaker 2She said I wonder if that's what they call me yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , but what was she saying ?
Speaker 2So yeah , so finish her thought on that Right Because she , she said she started college . She went to college for two years she was miserable and she would come down and work in the summers on a sailboat . She learned to sail and she loved it so much and she kept telling her parents I don't want to go to college , I don't want to go to college . And they were like , oh , you have to finish your degree . So she finished it and then she went and got a job in Virgin Gorda at this luxury residential community where she worked for a while . But then she felt that that was just too high pressure and more than she wanted . So she went to work on a sailboat .
Speaker 1And she said she makes a lot of money and she's happy , and one of the things and I definitely want to tie it back to another piece where one of the characters is like push , push , push , push , push Is . It leads to stress , it leads to anxiety and it leads to a lot of feelings of inadequacy , particularly with individuals who face barriers that are out of their control , and I want to talk to you about your work with folks .
Speaker 2Sure , well , and I was actually thinking of another situation too Right , everyone that gets a college degree for the most part , right , not , most people don't know what they want when they go to college . Right , we've seen that with the kids . But once you find a career path for yourself , you're choosing something that aligns with you in some way most people , not all but then you get out and you're still bound by these chains . Right , I see that , especially with my clients out and you're still bound by these chains . Right , I see that , especially with my clients who are teachers that they have no autonomy and they went into teaching because they loved teaching and they loved working with children . But then they're stuck now because they are having to follow a set of rules and only teach a certain curriculum and they can't have any autonomy in their career .
Speaker 1And , and , and , and , once again and it's one of the things that you talk about over and over again that freedom and breaking free of this meritocrate system , of the meritocracy that we live in , means that you have to avoid people pleasing right and you have to move away from that . Your value should not solely be based on , solely based on what you bring to the relationship .
Speaker 2Right . But the problem with that is that we kind of live in a people pleasing society Right , because you're always trying to prove yourself to someone unless you're completely independent . I'm really lucky in that I work for myself and I keep promoting to our kids to try to work for yourself , because I do have a sense of freedom , because I'm able to say , yes , I'll do this , no , I won't do this . I can take as much time off as I want . I mean , yes , still getting paid to do what I do , but I pretty much have a very good control over what I'm allowed to do .
Speaker 1And one of the interesting things and you use Elphette as an example , and I know up the hill there was another gentleman that used to be in a band Remember when we first started coming here years ago and I think there was an older gentleman he used to be in like the musician that lived over by the Apple Tree Apartments .
Speaker 2Oh , no , no , no , but he usually comes here . I don't think he's a musician . I know who you're talking about . The little guy with the convertible .
Speaker 1Yes , and how many people have we met here besides Elvett , who is a , who is an Olympic , who is an Olympic sailor that came here to get off the grid Right ? And yes , I don't know if I could honestly live here per se because I do feel like it might be a little claustrophobic for me , but when you meet , the quality , when you meet . We've met so many expatriates and so many people that have got jumped off the rat race down here and are living happy , happy and healthy lives .
Speaker 2Right , Absolutely , and I think that I mean that's something that I'm very clear that I want to do Right as soon as everyone's gone to college . I'm out of New York , that I'm very clear that I want to do right as soon as everyone's gone to college .
Speaker 1I'm out of New York and one of the things that makes me laugh is I think we talked about it a little bit in the last episode is your dad and Shanice right ? And how we call folks down here and you're trying to rent a car or you're calling everyone and remember I called the folks on the little small island , anagata , and I was like I'm waiting for him to put the thing in the computer and he's like I got you , man . And I'm like are you sure it's on the paper , man , don't worry about it .
Speaker 2Right , that's what they do , but it also works for them , right ? And so they don't reinvent the wheel . They just write your stuff in a paper calendar and they're like oh , such and such a date . Go , you know , go meet him at the dock Right when we leave . What did they tell us ? Park the rental car by the ferry , leave the doors unlocked and put the key under the mat in the car , like what .
Speaker 1And I don't want to say that we're fantasizing that folks down here don't have any problems . As long as you live on Earth and you're human , you have problems . But what I am saying is that the level of simplicity that folks have down here and the lack of devices in their faces , the lack of easy access to Wi-Fi or news , is just that the pace of life here is far slower , and I do think you see people who are a lot healthier and happier .
Speaker 2Absolutely . But I think it's because the general mood is more relaxed , right , and people nobody's really out for themselves . It's really like very much a very big community here . Everybody knows everybody , everybody is happy . I mean , look at all the families we saw today in the Bay Right , all the families we saw today in the Bay right , they're all not all of them are , you know , parents with children , but grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins , and these kids are just running around freely . And I said to you , wouldn't it be amazing to live in a place where you could just put your three , four year old on the beach with a pair of floaties on their arms and go sit down and have lunch and you're not even worried about them ?
Speaker 1That's true . That's true . It makes me want to move on to our next segment , which is and I love to call you the boundary queen
Setting Boundaries and Finding Freedom
Speaker 1. But how does setting boundaries set you free ?
Speaker 2Well , it allows you to be who you are authentically . For myself , I I always say boundaries are a way of telling people how to interact . You interact with you and how to love you , and when you set boundaries right , you're holding yourself to a standard and you are living by that standard , and it's the way that you want to live .
Speaker 1Why do you think it is that so many people do not understand their own personal boundaries ?
Speaker 2I think there's a couple of reasons . The first one is , I think most people do not know authentically who they are . That's number one . And then what happens and this is something I see a lot with clients is that people and I I'll say this out loud too nobody meets people thinking , oh , I hope this person doesn't like me , right ? That's not a thought that people , I think , typically have . But when you have boundaries with people , right , and you're , if you're not , people pleasing , then there's a chance that people aren't going to take those boundaries Well , right , cause on the flip side of that , you can learn a lot about people by how they respond to your boundaries . And when you you know people , it's hard to set boundaries because a lot of people fear the other person won't react well to them or won't like them , and people don't want to not be liked .
Speaker 1One of the things and you can find this in New York City too , if you go to the DMV but I'm going to say is one of the things I like about down here is folks are kind , but folks have clear boundaries that they will set up right away . Oh , I'm going to talk about , I'm going to talk about Chad .
Speaker 2You already talked about him the other day . We did talk about you did talk about him the other day , but it's , it's true , it's like the high strong tourists you see them here and it doesn't fly . Yeah Right , I mean we had that incident in the rental car yesterday . I swear every time we come here the roads are really very hilly , perilous , they really are . I mean , there's like missing chunks of road . You're coming down this huge hill in a switchback and there's like a whole . Did you see that area yesterday where half the road was missing and they had cones up ?
Speaker 1yes , but you said you feel the roads here are safer than barbados , which I do not understand I think , because I'm driving , I'm in the middle and you're on the edge .
Speaker 2but when we were we were driving yesterday and the car made a sound and then it wouldn't go . We started rolling backwards down this really steep incline . Now I was terrible . I admittedly got out and started running down the street in the middle of traffic . Yeah , I was terrified , but when you called the car rental guy and you asked for a new car , what did he say to you ?
Speaker 1He was like I think he was like that's the , did you mash the gear ? Did you mess up my car ? And I'm like no , sir , I shifted it in the manner that I normally shifted it in . And he's like I think you mash my car . But I think the point that you're making is that the folks here do have very clear boundaries , right .
Speaker 2You know how to interact with people here . Yes , yes , right , everybody from Glenn at the beach bar . Yes , ok , to Elvett downstairs . You know how to interact with people because they make it very clear from the moment you meet them .
Speaker 1And what's interesting is we , whenever we come down here , we always see Americans struggle , because I do think we live in a society that every that no one has boundaries anymore and everyone thinks their opinion is valid and everyone has a , has a say , and everyone .
Speaker 2People always want to be right . Yeah , the other thing is is that Americans , especially , are so neurotic and high strung that they come somewhere like here and they don't even know how to relax .
Speaker 1Yes , yes , I mean , my man was behind the counter moving around tickets that were pretty much useless .
Speaker 1When you get to the , when you get to to the British Virgin islands on the other side , when you get to the , when you get to the British Virgin Islands on the other side , all of your luggage as it would be on a tropical island is in a pile and it is like is that yours , go get it yourself ? System of being in a rat race , of being getting up and performing and having to perform for other people and having other people perform for me , that it took me a minute just to realize that that wasn't the case here and relax where I had too many boundaries up or not enough boundaries up , and it's just . It was in this weird scenario that the folks here don't do right , and a lot of places that we go that have a lower socioeconomic status than than than America , the folks here don't do right , and a lot of places that we go that have a lower socioeconomic status than America , the folks are happy and they're very clear in their happiness and they're very clear in their boundaries and the things that they want .
Speaker 2Right , and you know what's interesting also , I read it to you yesterday there's a zero percent poverty rate here . There's no poverty .
Speaker 1There's no poverty . It's crazy , right ? It's interesting , Like one of the some of the things that we , that we can't do here . I want to move on to to another topic , which is finding freedom and trying something new , and this is something I definitely want you to talk about , because when we're at the beach today , you talked about somebody in your life that does that as an in their forties and doesn't even have a passport .
Speaker 2Oh , right . Well , I think , I think people are scared . People are scared to do things , they're scared to go places , they're scared to try new things because the devil , you know , is really comfortable , right , if you're just living the status quo , you just get going through the day to day . People think it's fine because they've never tried anything else . But once you go and do other things , you learn there's other opportunities out there , right . So it's like go get the passport , right , buy the plane ticket . We travel on such a budget , like . I understand there's a lot of people who can't afford travel , but we travel . We stay in such low cost lodging because I would rather be able to travel four or five , six times a year . Right , then , not . So I don't need to stay at the Ritz , right , I can , you know , cut the budget way down and stay at Alvette's .
Speaker 1Yeah , this is . This is someplace that we're at right now that I would not have imagined staying eight years ago . It is , but it's a nice . But now that I'm more traveled and I and I've tried more things and we're going to actually move on than talking about simply travel . But as I've tried more things , this is now an apartment flat that I now see is wow , this is a great deal . You're here for 14 days for under two , for under two thousand dollars .
Speaker 2Right , but you know you can also talk about when I met you and you were so vehemently against going back to school .
Speaker 1Yes , yeah , or even the gentleman that I talked to the other day , that that that the the mental health got a counselor that I talked to the other day that owns the practice in Florida . When I talked to him about something in a version that I have , about my own future career , about going to work for myself , he absolutely stopped me in my tracks and was like I don't understand why . Can you explain to me why you don't think that you'll be successful in that ? And I realized that it was me not wanting to try something new , that it was me , despite being one of the co-hosts of the show , avoiding the devil . That I didn't know and I think that it's very important and it's one of the things that you've often talked to me about during the course of this relationship is the fear Knowing your worth yeah .
Speaker 1And the fear of trying something new . And how does trying something new tie back into someone knowing their worth ?
Speaker 2Because you hold yourself back Right . If you live the status quo , like I was saying earlier , all the time , then you don't even know what's out there and what's available to you , and it ties into when we talked about failure . It may not work . Who cares ? Who cares Like I have set myself up so that I can work 100 percent for myself . And if that means that I am going to leave everyone behind for three or four months in the winter and come to the islands and work a few days a week and go to the beach the other four or five , that's what I'm going to do . But I've set myself up that way . But I'm not afraid of taking the risk .
Speaker 1And one of the things as we think about this topic and as we as we start winding down on this , if you ever see the movie the Matrix right , the movie the Matrix I think why it was such a poignant film and why it impacted so many people is a lot of times we're on this treadmill and we're on this , this , this wheel , and it's like what are we doing ? Like what are we going ? What are we ? What are we ? What are we trying to accomplish ? You ever heard of the saying he who dies with the most toys wins , and that's like the irony of what it is to live in a capitalist culture . Let me amass this great deal of goods . Let me collect the most amount of love .
Speaker 1But let me be miserable , but let me be miserable and talk . To talk to me a little bit about that . What do you think ?
Speaker 2Well , Bob Marley said right , money doesn't make you rich , Right , it's . You know what makes you rich ? We can have a whole conversation about that , but I would imagine it's the lifestyle that you live , right , the connections that you make , the relationships that you have and the ability to be free and to live the life that you want to live . Live the life that you want to live . I think that's what makes you rich .
Speaker 1How do you think social media and the 24-7 news cycle have contributed to the decline of mental health of young people ?
Speaker 2No , because it makes you completely anxious and depressed and you're constantly comparing yourself to other people or you're getting the message that you have to do certain things to be something or somebody .
Speaker 1And we see that in the constant advertising , especially in feeds . Like one of the things that drives me crazy about Instagram and all of them and I still go on Instagram to promote the show or see what my friends are up to is it puts all of these things in your feed that it thinks that you like , or news stories , and so one of the things that I have found to and I would suggest to folks to set them free or get them off of the hamster wheel is just do , just do like a media fast , right , what does what does that look like ? To stop checking the news every morning or stop listening to ? I listen to NPR every morning , but does it really , is it really helping me , can I ?
Speaker 2No , I don't . I don't think it helps anybody , cause I think it makes you more anxious . I mean , how funny was it the other night when you wanted to watch the interview with Joe Biden and I was like you know that TV in here doesn't even work . I don't even know why this dude bought .
Speaker 1TVs because his .
Speaker 2Wi-Fi hardly works . But you were like right , it doesn't work . Right , but the more that you're exposing yourself to that it's it's literal programming , right , right , like they're telling you what to be scared of , what to expect . They build up , and build up , and build up , and then it puts people in a state
Breaking Free From Mental Slavery
Speaker 2of panic .
Speaker 1One of the things that Bob Marley used to say is emancipate , emancipate I'm not even drinking yet . Emancipate your mental yourself from mental slavery . None of but ourselves can free our minds . Lindsay , you as a health expert and also an expert on all things Caribbean . What was Bob Marley trying to tell his audience through that ?
Speaker 2Get out of your own head , right ? I mean , it's like that you we are . We are a prisoner to our thoughts , and I always tell people when you hear enough negative things about yourself , you start to believe them people .
Speaker 1When you hear enough negative things about yourself , you start to believe them . So , as we come through and we're wrapping up on this , on this shorter , because we got to get down to a barbecue we got it oh even though I don't eat meat yeah , but I smell it .
Speaker 1It's wafting . It's all that . Barbecue is wafting up . It sounds busy down there . Yeah , I think it is . Well , this is the last night of the season , right , but what are some strategies as we wrap up ? And so we talked about the causes , but you , as a as a as a mental health expert and someone who be sitting down with , with a client who's telling you , I just don't feel free and I feel pressed in at every , and I just need relief .
Speaker 2Well , I'll tell you what I say to my clients , because I do see this a lot . If you don't feel good and it's impacting you , you and I'll use a client that I have who hates her job so much . She comes home and she's on edge and she's yelling at her kids and then she and her husband aren't getting along and she can't even muster up the energy to cook and she feels sad all the time . She's like I just want to feel better , but the big thing that she can't stand is her job . And I said to her and this I say to all my clients well , you know what , like you , if you're not going to change anything , then why would you expect to feel any better ?
Speaker 2If you aren't going to change anything , why would you expect to feel better ? If you don't like the way you feel , you need to change something right . If you have a fever , you take Tylenol , or if you have strep throat , you take an antibiotic . You have to do something to feel better . Right , and the same comes from all of this kind of the programming and the not being able to be autonomous . It's you have to change things right . And I say that to this specific client all the time like well , if you can't stand your job and you're under this tremendous amount of stress every day , then who's going to get the brunt of it ? Not your coworkers , because you behave there , right ? It's the same thing that you or I say at home If I have a bad day , you can tell . If you have a bad day , I know Right , but we've both taken a lot of steps to change what the trajectory of our future looks like .
Speaker 1And to add to your comment , the Bible says that faith without works is dead , and so you could have faith that a situation is going to change . But it's not a magic genie . You have to work at it . Absolutely , absolutely so and I think one of the things that drives us both crazy are clients that do not do the work . Between sessions You'll meet people it was like , oh , therapy doesn't work and therapy didn't do anything for me . But then you ask that person well , did you actually work at getting better ? And right .
Speaker 2I validate my clients feelings . I never validate their story and just explain that it is okay to have feelings and emotions and to be upset by things or not like the way that things are going , but I'm not going to validate your story because you can change it and write a new story . Yes , certain things . It's horrible that certain things happen to people , right , and people have experiences . However , you can write a new chapter or you can close the book and write a new one .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I think that's something you know that Gabor Mate talks about is that it's unfortunate that that horrible things have happened to some people and many people . But you can and he's not glossing over the horrible thing that happened but you can break free from that old story and write a new script and as that , as the music begins to swell down .
Speaker 2Yes , yes , let's go downstairs .
Speaker 1Well , downstairs , do you have anything else that you'd like to add ? Or , or , or , what ?
Speaker 2No , I don't think so . I think we're just going to go dance and sing and not drive the car . Enjoy the night . And the beautiful thing is is we're right downstairs . So right downstairs we can come up and get a good sleep later and get on a boat in the morning and
On Location Podcasting Challenges
Speaker 2go to Anagata .
Speaker 1Yeah , we got to stop doing these episodes from all of our secret locations , because you're going to come back next year .
Speaker 2It's such a pain in the butt to get to these places that a lot of people won't bother .
Speaker 1You don't think so ? No , I don't think so let's see , let's see what happens next year .
Speaker 2Well , that's not renting anything out anyway .
Speaker 1I'm not going to be a dumb podcaster . I'm going to tell them not to advertise my place . Anyway , this has been another episode of the Devil . You Don't Know . This has been Cleveland and Lindsay , and if you've liked what you've heard , please rate and review us on iTunes or Spotify or wherever podcasts are found , and recommend us to your friends .
Speaker 2And you can let the Elm Tones take us out and you can .
Speaker 1Oh , let's see if that'll work and we'll let the Elm Tones take us out . Thank you .
