The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
The Devil You Don’t Know is a candid mental-health and culture podcast hosted by married counselors Lindsay and Cleveland Oakes. Through humor, personal stories, honest disagreements, and practical psychology, they uncover the hidden patterns affecting our relationships, identities, families, and emotional lives. From mindfulness and healing to marriage, society, and the everyday messiness of being human, Lindsay and Cleveland explore what it takes to recognize our patterns—and choose something different.
The Devil You Don’t Know: Marriage, Mental Health & the Patterns That Shape Us
Inner Narratives: The Art of Rewriting Your Life
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We explore seeing one's life as a story that can be rewritten, encouraging listeners to reflect on who is authoring their personal narrative. The conversation navigates the differences between living passively versus proactively, emphasizing how active control can reshape one's life story into something more authentic and fulfilling.
Our episode wraps up with exploring varying levels of self-awareness and the journey of rewriting one's story. Inspired by Gabor Mate's insights, we dig into how deep-seated patterns from childhood impact adult relationships, using specific cases like Jen & Jolie from the Discovey+ show Love Off the Grid to illustrate these points. We discuss the importance of proactive living, taking risks, and self-reflection, underscoring how these elements contribute to healthier relationships and more genuine interactions. Tune in to discover how empowering choices can lead to a more fulfilling life full of authentic connections and personal growth.
Please email us at Gettoknowthedevil@gmail.com
Writing Your Own Story
Speaker 1This is Cleveland and this is Lindsay . And this is another episode of the Devil . You Don't Know , lindsay , what are we going to be talking about today . How you don't listen , how I don't listen , listen I , okay , you can get . Okay , we'll talk about that , but just tell the folks what is this topic , and then you can chastise me about not listening to you .
Speaker 2Writing your own story , writing your own story , but you still don't ever listen to me . Okay , so ?
Speaker 1husbands out there , listen to your wives . Sometimes there's critical information going down and things that you need to know , that you do not know , that you need to know .
Speaker 2I think the cat wants to leave . I think the cat wants to excuse yourself and open the door .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm going to excuse myself , but I'm going to start this preface . So what I did not listen to is next week we are moving the young man , the college drop in , back into college in Pennsylvania . He's gone back . That's good news . Good news . Well , I lied to him and told him I was going to miss him . I'm going to miss him , but not as much as he thinks I am .
Speaker 2Well , he's very messy , he's very messy , a little smelly , oh God . Yeah , he does A little , but he's got the boys , it's not him , though I feel like it's just like it's just like his dorm room smelled . Like these boys they just take showers and you know they wash . They throw the wet towel down and then they wash stuff and they don't dry it all the way and then they leave their sweaty , stinky clothes and socks and shoes all you know all over and then it just stinks . It's just .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I and we you know you burn , you burn candles , you burn incense you pray over .
Speaker 2Remember , was it when we came back from nashville , when there was that wet , smelly towel ? That was so bad that the whole house smelled and you had to go put the towel out on the front porch .
Speaker 1Yeah , you remember charlie , um , on , um . What is it um ? Oh , love off the grid , love off the grid with a boy where he gets going to tent with the boys and he's like I've never smelled nothing like that before he said no bear is gonna come in here .
Speaker 2Coming in here , that's that's oh , they're my favorite couple . Let's talk about them for a minute .
Speaker 1They're very funny well , listen , we are big fans of uh , of discovery , of the discovery network . I said once what the greatest decision literally was thought when I said this was going to be marrying her . It was . That is one of the greatest decisions yeah , don't .
Speaker 2You're trying to cover it again , but carry on .
Speaker 1But there was one night we're sitting here and um a little inebriated maybe you might have been , I might have been and and I was like , oh my god , we're watching 90 day fiance . We probably had just watched uh , hot and heavy and love , or love Off the Grid , or Naked and Afraid of Love , or 90 Day UK , and I said this is .
Speaker 2You said you know what One of the best decisions I've ever made in my whole life is ? No , I think it was the best .
Speaker 1The best .
Speaker 2And you said you bought the subscription service without commercials .
Speaker 1Yeah , that was the best decision it had nothing to do with me . But you also acknowledged it because I think it was during the chicken run on um no , I didn't acknowledge it and I didn't think it was funny at all .
Speaker 2I thought you should have chosen me before that . Well , you are , because you know what I ? Love you so much that I'd watch commercials .
Speaker 1Oh , well , david saslov , if you're listening , and you need more hosts for pillow talk . Uh , I also do commentary on Hallmark movies , but it would not be family appropriate for the show Sure , wouldn't so . So , anyway , as we're rambling , we missed a week , but tell the folks why we missed the week . Where were you at , what were you doing and what was that all about ? Where were you at , what were you doing and what was that all about ?
Speaker 2Well , I was on a silent retreat in which was a prerequisite for my mindfulness meditation teacher certification program Congratulations , thank you With Jack Kornfield and Tara Brock , and so they have a few prerequisites , one of them , which was this retreat which I actually did from home , because I'm paying a lot of money for a lot of trainings right now and so I didn't want to fly and do an in-person , so I did one of their approved online retreats and , yeah , it was very interesting
Authoring Your Own Story
Speaker 2. It was Pacific time and everyone knows I'm very , very strict about my sleeping schedule , so that was very hard for me .
Speaker 1And what I was going to say it was you facing the devil . You don't know , because we all know .
Speaker 2Well , I was actually by the last section of it . I was sound asleep on the couch every night . Yeah , you were out , but it was . It was a . It was called a 32 . Like it's , the original body scan retreat was what it was . It was a 32 body parts . They're not any body parts that you would think were on there , so earlobe , no .
Speaker 1Molar Tooth .
Speaker 2No , feces , stomach , phlegm , mucus , things like that .
Speaker 1That makes sense because it's all from your gut , right .
Speaker 2Is that part of it ? No , it was brain , everything right . I mean , there were so many like body hair , head hair I have the whole list of them , which we could talk about another time , but it was very interesting . But I think that the whole point of it was that not , this wasn't the point , but this is what someone brought up is how we focus so much on those external parts right , the skin , the hair , things like that and we don't focus on these inner parts of ourselves , and they're all equally important .
Speaker 1If I were to think about what you learned in a narrative therapy . In a narrative therapy sense , it sounds like you were getting to learn yourself as the protagonist in your own story , I mean , I guess . So I'm trying to work with me , I'm trying to segue .
Speaker 2This is called the segue oh , I'm sorry , I was not picking up what you were putting down so , as I segue into it , um into our main time , it was just about .
Speaker 2Really , it was about this deeper connection with yourself and focusing on these different parts of yourself , because the parts that were probably most vain about are the hair , the skin right , the appearance , things like that , and we don't think about all these other parts , which are probably actually more important than our internal appearance . But it was run by two people who practice Buddhism one who was at one time a monk and it was really beautiful and it was really lovely and there was a lot of connection with other people and being able to talk about your experiences , but it was really just very mindful communication . It was a silent retreat , so we did a lot of silent meditating . There were days that we meditated hours and hours and hours , and it would be you know that we did also , the first time I've ever done , actually done Qigong , which is a moving meditation , which I really liked , and there's like a lot of medical purpose for those practices .
Speaker 2So , yeah , it was very , it was very interesting . Would I do it again from home ? Probably not , because there's a lot of distractions when you're home and I think , yes , it's nice . I think that the the thing that came out of it for me , the biggest goal that I have is to actually make sure I'm , you know , practicing consistently . I do meditate and I do a lot of breath work , but this was more like you know , know , I should make sure that I make it a priority that makes .
Speaker 1That makes sense , but , seriously , I think it segues into what we were talking about , or into today's topic , which is authoring your own story . I am a big believer in narrative therapy , and narrative therapy is this idea , um , where you take yourself out of , uh of of the story , um , so you're basically living an authentic life according to the way that you want to do it is that correct ? So you ?
Speaker 1want to write your own story , yeah so narrative therapy is one where you take yourself out and you look at your life as if you were a character in a story . Uh , bell Hooks talks about it in the short piece she did , called On Autobiography , where she talked about her life as a little girl named Gloria , and writing her own autobiography helped her realize who she was , the character that she was in her story and the story that she was trying to tell , the story that she was writing and the story of who she was . A lot of times when I sit down with clients and that have maladaptive thinking and actually said this to someone a couple of weeks ago this story that you're living no longer suits you anymore . I say that again . This story that you are living Right no longer suits you anymore . That's what I sat down and said are living Right no longer suits you anymore . That's what I sat down and said to someone .
Speaker 1Right , but then it's time to write a new one , it's time to write a new one , and so that's what this episode is . Is is really all about is what is the story that you're telling yourself ? Who ?
Speaker 2are you and who's really telling you that story ? Is it yourself or somebody else ? Like I said in our last episode , story ?
Speaker 1is it yourself or somebody else ? Like I said in our last episode , yeah , yeah , yeah , and so let's . I'm gonna ask you a question , linds , and I think this is a big problem with a lot of folks that feel like their story is out of control . Um , and I've sat and argued with people like , well , this is my story and this is where it's always going to be , and I was like , does it have to be ? So what is the difference between living passively and living proactively ?
Speaker 2If you were to sit down and if I were to tell you well , this is the way we've always done it and this is how my family is , if you're living passively , you just allow things to happen to you , right , and if you're being proactive , then you are willing to , you know , take a chance and take a risk so that you can achieve something that you'd like to achieve .
Speaker 1Yeah , so , so yeah . To me , when you author your own story and it sounds like this is what you're saying , it means that you're taking active control over the narrative in your life right , right , you get to choose .
Speaker 2I tell all my clients when you're an adult , you get to choose .
Speaker 1So what if something unexpected happens to you ? Does that knock you off your story when you're sometimes sure , but is that a problem ?
Speaker 2no , because it's your responsibility then to get back up and get back on right and move forward , but it's not to say that when you know bad things aren't going to happen to people for sure , right , bad things are always going to happen to us . We're going to have these experiences . However , we don't have to let them hold us back or keep us down .
Speaker 1So going off that and I've had clients who are like well , the trauma I've had in my life I can't overcome it .
Speaker 2Like you don't , understand . I would have to know what the specific trauma was to speak to that . But what does ?
Speaker 1Mate , say about trauma and the things that you've suffered .
Speaker 2Well , as an adult , you get to choose a different path . What he would say about them is that they cause us a lot of pain and suffering , right and that we open up those wounds when other people activate us or trigger us .
Speaker 1Right , and I think what he says is that you should be wiser for the suffering .
Speaker 2Absolutely , because , since you've suffered right , you should learn a way without suffering Right , and it should also give you insight into how you would not maybe do things or how you would not live your lives , and then that's how you become more wise to different situations .
Speaker 1Yeah , I remember when I was in high school and I'll change some of the names , I won't mention the name . There's a young lady that and good , really good friend of mine , um , that I would say that she was very passive in her life , suffered from depression Now that I go back and look at it and really great , kid Um . But I think what the problem happens with folks is when you don't offer your story , you don't even know what your story is is that you don't approach your life with ownership or agency right , and when you don't approach your life with ownership or agency Right , and when you don't approach your life with ownership or agency , you also don't approach it with with , with resilience and purpose .
Speaker 2Well , I would agree , right , because if you're stuck in a place where you're not content with things and you're letting other people make choices for you which is essentially what happens when you don't live autonomously , right , then why would you ? Why would you feel good and why would you succeed ? You become stuck in this place of being the victim , and nothing works for me .
Speaker 1Yeah , when I think about families , and I think about people who are have unhappy relationships with their families , I listen to a speaker once say that what happens with folks is that as you grow up and we can speak to it in both of our families , they becomes what he calls a values gap . Right , and so as you grow up and you become more independent and Cleveland writes his own story , or Lindsay writes her story , or if you're out there listening and Tom or Mary or Susan and you're writing your own story , it's different from the story that maybe your family intended for you .
Speaker 2Right and well , but that's also right . That's that's an issue , right , right , because , like you know , that's that's what holds you back , right . It's that other voice of people telling you what you should do or what you should be .
Speaker 1And what this person called the values gap is that the values gap is . Then your family puts you in this unfortunate position . Where do you choose to be , lindsey ?
Speaker 2or do you choose to be the person they want you to be ? But the thing is is that if everybody was healthy , if everybody was healthy , they wouldn't put you in that position right and they would say , oh , you want to do something differently ? Okay , go ahead and try it out , right ? There would be more support and more love for that . The problem is is that we have so much programming and we're told so much about what we should and shouldn't do that people cannot , you know , have a difficulty , um , straight straying from what that is right , that what that status quo or what that societal norm is .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , I totally agree . Right , I grew up in a religion of high control , um , and even now I have folks that call me up and they mean well , um , when they call me , and I'll never talk badly of them , but they're like hey , come back , come back , you need direction , you need control , like this needs to be your story . Why don't you want ? To come back where to to the the jehovah's witnesses oh , no , no , we're not going back there .
Speaker 2It's not . Yes , it is not . It goes back to what I said before . Right , who looks outside dreams , who looks inside awakens . Right , I mean , why do people go there looking for acceptance in a group or acceptance ? Right , they're looking for someone to tell them they're okay . But really , if you do the work on yourself , you should know that you are okay the way that you are . And the problem with groups like that and I don't have a direct experience with them , I just know my experience through you is that there's a lot of judgment in that religion . There is a lot of judgment especially for people who do not practice that religion . And I just believe that if there is a God and I do believe there is a higher power or a God , if there is a God Right , then he shouldn't be judging you if you haven't found him in that particular way yet .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think what happens with and I listen to a sociologist talk about religion and religious groups and I'm not anti-religious , I'm very spiritual , I just don't necessarily believe in organized religion is that people choose to be in those high control groups . And it is a choice , because I chose to get out and folks chose .
Speaker 2Do you think those people are really happy ? No , because they're living passively Right and so they're living according to , like what other people want them to be Right . It's that other voice that we talked about .
Speaker 1They're living somebody else's story , right no-transcript reactive and then talk about less lacking direction .
Speaker 2Well , I mean a lot of us lack direction .
Speaker 1Yeah , but if you're authoring your own story and you know we .
Speaker 2but it's okay to not always know which path you're going on , but I what I say is you have to be on a path yes , you have to be on a path and you can figure . I mean , listen , I'm a big one . It's hard for me to talk to this because I figure it out as I go , which really makes you crazy , because you really like to have a plan you , but you're not a passive liver .
Speaker 2No , but I am . I very much take action and I'm also very motivated and ambitious . I also like money , right , and so you know , the harder you work , the more of that that comes in Right , and I have a set of goals that I'm like oh , I really like to go on vacation .
Exploring Self-Awareness and Personal Narratives
Speaker 2No-transcript .
Speaker 1And I'm going to ask you this . I mean , you tell me , what do you find about their level of awareness of themselves ? Would you say they're very self-aware ?
Speaker 2Some clients Sure .
Speaker 1Some are . Do they know their place in the story ? Do they know their direction in the story ?
Speaker 2Some of them do , and that's why they come in and quickly leave , because they just want some support and some adaptive strategies to get through difficult situations and then they move on . Some of them know some clients will come to therapy forever because , as Gabor Mate says , there are some therapists who will sit there and just listen to the story over and over and over again . I don't do that with my clients and I'm very clear with them . Like , my job is not to sit here . I like you very much , but I don't want to sit here and listen to you complain every week .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think what Monte said in that speech that you let me listen to was that his first therapist validated his story and he needed a therapist to help him challenge and rewrite his story .
Speaker 2Yeah , absolutely , he , absolutely . He did , and he well , and he said what he needed was someone who was not going to just sit there and listen to him vent all the time . Right , we need to actually change parts of ourself or make different decisions .
Speaker 2Right , right and a really good therapist will help you look at the root of that right by asking specific questions , right ? How long have you felt that way ? When was the first time that you felt that way ? What does this remind you of ? Because that's how you get back to the pattern , Unless you've experienced a really traumatic event very recently in your life . A lot of the reasons that you're having the struggles that you have as an adult is because of things that happened to you in your childhood , even as long back as infancy .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Can you talk a little bit more to that ? I think that's a real big part of compassionate inquiry .
Speaker 2Right . Well , we become the people that we are because of the experiences that we have had . So if we have an experience where we are not cared for or not nurtured right , or someone abandons us , then we come into adulthood , right , we don't have healthy relationships because we're waiting for that person to abandon us , because we don't feel loved , because , as a child right , if your parent leaves , right , like I have a parent who I have a client whose mother was incarcerated and the father was an alcoholic and he was passed around and passed around and passed around . So you know what is the memo that he gets out of ? That is I'm not loved , right , I'm not , like it wasn't even where . I'm not worthy of love , because I was this little baby and all I needed was someone to like , hold me and put a bottle in my mouth and rock me and comfort me when I cried , and I didn't have that .
Speaker 1So why is that feeling of powerlessness so dangerous ?
Speaker 2Well , I think what happens is that we because , because it impacts the mental health so much and it impacts people in a way that they don't know how to communicate , they don't know how to have relationships Right and they don't have connection to themselves or to other people . So it creates these very isolating places for people Right , places for people Right , and it's I once , one of my therapists many years ago , who I don't see anymore , said to me that when you grow up in a home where there is a lot of trauma or abuse , people almost live on these separate islands Right , one sibling is here , one sibling is over here , another one is over here , the parents are over here and people don't really come back to each other because they don't have that connection with each other .
Speaker 1So it's almost like everybody runs in another direction yeah , when I think about also too and that's a great point the running in the different direction . David's has laws , if you're listening . Uh , we are fans of everything on discovery plus , uh , we will comment on it . Um , jen and jolie , on love off the grid , right j ? Jen had convinced herself of this story . I'm unlovable . No one can ever love me , no one wants this life with me , and let's talk about that a little bit . And how did Jen sabotage herself because of that feeling of powerlessness in her own story ?
Speaker 2Well , because she doesn't .
Speaker 2You know I think I think it was it was her father incarcerated when she was younger and then she was blamed for it and she was put into the system .
Speaker 2So you know what happens when you do not , when you're , basically when you have a parent who commits a crime and is incarcerated , and then you have another parent who is so scared to just parent you and not side with that other parent . What happens to you ? Right , you're this little child who is abandoned , and so you don't have a connection to yourself and you don't have a connection to other people and you don't know what healthy relationships and healthy connection look like . And so then you go on right to live life in a way that you know , oh well , I can only be here for myself and that way nobody can let me down . Yep , right . And then , and then what happens when you enter a relationship ? I mean , you know this , right , is that then ? Oh well , I'm going to push this person away because it's going to kind of continue to kind of perpetuate that negative core belief I have about myself , which is like I'm not lovable or I'm going to be abandoned .
Speaker 1Yeah , and that's the story . It as , as Jolie walked away , she was like , if you learn one thing about this story , like years from now , when you tell yourself , realize that this was a woman that really loved you , Right , and it's crazy to sit there and watch Jen say and she said at one point , like Jen was inventing a story in your head , Well , you're not happy . And she and Jolie was like I never said that I was not happy here .
Speaker 2Right , but think about that whole situation . I mean , what did that woman do , right ? She ran away instead of , like you know , trying to connect and to heal herself , and said she ran away to a place where she could be by herself and then kind of continue to force those things to happen in her life . Because who's really ? Who is she going to meet out there ? Yeah , no , I mean , she's in the middle of nowhere , of nowhere . So who is she going to meet ? Nobody . Is she happy ? No , she's not happy . And and also the other thing is she doesn't even know how to love people because of what happened to her because she's unwilling to change the story right .
Speaker 2and then she invites this woman here who they have this you know romantic connection or emotional connection , and she's bossing her around and I mean , I'm sorry , but if you lived on some like random property in the middle of nowhere and you need me to like , come there , I wouldn't know what to do either . And quite frankly , ew , I mean ew , like you know I am , I enjoy , I do enjoy the outdoors , I will say that , but I just really enjoy indoor plumbing and electricity and you know things like that nature .
Speaker 1It sounds like you know your story
Empowering Choices
Speaker 1. So how does living proactively differ from someone who is living passively ? If Jen , if Jen were to change your living ?
Speaker 2passively , you let life happen to you , right . Right , if you're living proactively , you kind of take life by the balls , so to speak . Right , and you go after what you want to go after . You don't wait for things to happen to you , you go out there and make things happen , yeah .
Speaker 1So if Jen were living proactively with Jolie , what would the outcome have been differently ? How would she ? How do you think Jen could have authored that story in a different way ?
Speaker 2Well , she would have had to been willing to take a chance , right , and sometimes it's as simple as just being quiet , and I do . I do that a lot . Which actually drives you crazy , you've told me , is , you know , sometimes you just have to sit quietly and sit and feel and see what's going on for you , and that's actually very important skill to have is not to always have to go off at the mouth or to be going off at the fingertips of the texting . Sometimes you just have to sit and feel and see what comes up and you know , work on healing yourself . So when you don't work on healing yourself , you're always going to protect your own fears and shame and guilt unto other people . And that's really what she was doing , right ? Was she saying all these things that this other woman is like ? I never even said that .
Speaker 1Yeah , that makes me think and I know , I saw . I saw a Brene Brown book on the shelf the other day . So a couple of them in there makes me think of this quote from Brene Brown , which is you either walk inside your story and own it , or you stand outside your story and hustle for your worthiness . What does that mean to you ? Say it again you either walk inside your story and own it .
Speaker 2Yeah , that means you're content with it . This is my life . It might not be exactly where I want to be , or other people think I should be , but like I'm OK in this moment right now .
Speaker 1I talked about that last time too , and then the second half is or you stand outside your story and hustle for your worthiness . What did ? What did brown mean when they said that you stand outside and hustle for you ?
Speaker 2well , you do other things for other people , like right , but you want to do other things , basically not not saying do specifically for other people . You're doing other things so that other people will recognize you . Right , oh , I'm gonna do this . And then other people , right , like it's like what gabor mate said is like I went and became a doctor so I would be worthy to other people . Right , you go out and you seek your worthiness from external sources instead of saying , oh , this is what feeds my soul and this is what I should be doing , yeah , and so even in a recent decision that I made , you know , the cat is very happy , and I think she really is .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I think you're very happy , cat's so happy . What do you ?
Speaker 2mean I'm very happy that I'm home every day . I love having you here . My life has , like my stress has reduced tenfold since you've been home . Yeah , it's actually great . I'm about to book a vacation as soon as we get off of here for Thanksgiving Endless , endless PTO .
Speaker 1Yeah , but one of the things is is is authoring your own story is where you just stop , and we talked about it in last , in in in another episode . I'm not sure where will . These will end up sequentially , but stop lying to yourself , stop telling yourself the story that does not suit you anymore .
Speaker 2Right , Right , absolutely Like . If it does not align with you , it is okay . And , like the thing is , it's also okay to not be OK . It's OK to try things and it doesn't work out and then try something else , but write your own damn story .
Speaker 1Because I could have continued to hustle at something to prove my worthiness . But I got to a point and I'm gonna let you say it . I got to a point where I was like why am I hustling to prove my worthiness ?
Speaker 2I am worthy , right ? And what did I say to you , right of ? You know all of the dedication and the devotion that you've given to them . Never call in sick , never take the personal days , only just take your vacation , always stay when they need you to stay . And then , like , what do you get in return for that ? You just get crappy treatment . You're just mistreated over and over and over again . And then you start to look at it and say , well , man , maybe I should have taken all those sick days . Yeah , like you know , at the end of the day , I'm so freaking unhappy that , like , none of this is even worth it to me anymore .
Speaker 1So I'm talking in reference to myself , but when you take that with clients that I've sat with and I've sat with clients and miserable jobs , miserable relationships , miserable families , and it's like you really don't have to sit in , that you don't why are you and it goes back to people pleasing right ? Are you writing your story or are you writing one for the people ?
Speaker 2Well , most people are writing one for the people .
Speaker 1But , as somebody who loves fiction and science fiction and fantasy , sometimes some of the worst stories are ones that are written by the fans for the fans , right ? Because it doesn't challenge , it doesn't change , it doesn't really move the barometer in any kind of way , right ? So when you write a story that's people pleasing , are you being authentic to yourself ?
Speaker 2No , because people that people , please are just constantly looking from the for the approval from other people , right , and they don't ever want to rock the boat . So I will do what you think I should do so that we can maintain the status quo .
Speaker 1So what are some of the psychological benefits of , of , of active storytelling ? I can tell you one .
Speaker 2Tell me one is is that you always talk to me about is improve self-awareness and self-esteem well , you , yeah , I mean that is something that we talk about a lot , because you do need to be more self-aware . Everybody does . No , I'm not . I didn't mean the generalized you meant the royal , you , whatever you call it .
Speaker 2Yeah right , people . People need to be more aware , right , they need to be more present in the moment , they need to be able to be connected with their bodies . And how do they feel in certain situations ? What's going on for me internally ?
Speaker 1Yeah , I also think of enhanced resilience and the ability to handle adversity . How does , how does actively taking care uh control of your story help ?
Speaker 2well , when you feel better about yourself , you have better self-esteem , better self-worth , and then you are therefore , I believe , more resilient , right ? If you can get to this place where you don't really care what other people think about you , then you don't care about the adversity and you don't care what they have to say , right ? So you're just more tuned in with yourself and more confident .
Speaker 1Greater sense of purpose and direction in life .
Speaker 2Well , I mean , if you were doing what you wanted to do , wouldn't you feel like you had more direction ?
Speaker 1I have so much direction now and I have a greater sense of purpose .
Speaker 2Well , look at all the things that you've done since you stopped working yeah , well , have I stopped working I don't well ? No , because now you have your new role of house husband .
Speaker 2Yeah , but you're doing a very good job at it and cat husband and dog husband and children husband right and then you also gain control over your own life , right , and so it increases how you feel about yourself , right , and it takes time to get there . So it's not like you do something once and you're like , ok , I no longer have anxiety or I'm scared to talk over time . Communication becomes easy , right , and I think you and I talked about this pretty recently that your yes doesn't mean anything unless you know how to say no . Yes , I agree with that , right , and that's something that you've struggled with .
Speaker 1I am definitely probably the opposite of you when it comes to people pleasing because I really don't care , almost to a fault yeah , I would definitely say that , yeah like I'm at the extreme of the , not people pleasing yeah , whatever , I don't care if that guy likes me or not , but but here's what I'll say I care if , if you like me , I care if you love me , how about that ? But but here's , here's really the , the , the . The main point right Is authoring your own story puts you in control , and some people actually don't want control because , as , as Jason Pargin talks about he's one of my favorite science fiction authors the reason why people want dictators . And if you go back to the , to the Bible , when the , when the ancient Israelites were like give us a king , give us a king . Some people don't want the responsibility of authoring their own stories , it makes it much easier to say well , this is somebody else's fault .
Speaker 2Well , right , but then also are you really satisfied now ?
Speaker 1No , no , and I will tell you this , and any client that I've sat down with and I made them realize that you are responsible for yourself . I think Philippians 212 says you know , you know each one of us responsible . You know , save yourself , work out your own , work out your own salvation through fear and trembling . So it is hard to write your own story . I'm not saying , and I don't think any of us are saying , it's easy to write your own story . Was it easy for me to walk away from a lucrative job ? Yes , no , no it became easier .
Speaker 2It wasn't at first , yes , but then you got to a point where you were like , no , I'm just not happy with this .
Speaker 1Yes , as I became more and more aware of the story that I wanted to write and that that story no longer aligned with who I was today , I decided that situation no longer worked for me . Right , because I could sit in that story and complain about that story and be an unwilling participant on that story . Or I could do like be an unwilling participant on that story . Or I could do like John Amos did on Good Times , when he decided that he didn't like the direction that the character of James Evans was going and he wanted more money , walked away . Yeah , this is not my story anymore . This is not my character to tell . I will not , as somebody said , I will not be a horse and pony in your show , I will be a horse and pony in mine . So how is it that folks stay in these stories in bad relationships and in other situations ?
Speaker 2well , because they've , like , lied to themselves , which we talked about in the last episode . Right , stop lying to myself . Right , people stay in bad relationships because , oh , this is the way it's supposed to be people . People don't really get along , or oh well , no , I mean I'm never going to find anybody else because there's not enough people out there . I've tried dating before . Yeah , I mean , people make all kinds of excuses when they lie to themselves .
Speaker 1And a lot of times we come in and we might try to force our story on somebody else , right , and I'll talk about this briefly and this is where a word of advice that my brother gave me and I always agree with my big brother , but he's a smart guy from time to time , smarter than me from time to time . When I first met you , I did not understand your story , right , I did not understand your family .
Speaker 1That is correct your family dynamic and I made the assumption , the wrong assumption , because I was trying to see your story through my lens of well , why does lindsey interact with certain people in her family , like this right correct ? And as I talked to my brother about it , my brother was like well , cleveland , she obviously knows her story better than you do and if she says that those people are bad characters in her story , believe her right . And yeah , and and that was something I I've come to learn is well , it's not that it's bad characters , right , it's not .
Speaker 2It's not about being bad characters . I think it's just the way that I was raised and I and I and I think , now that I've done so much work on myself , I see it's not so much like . If I look back at the dynamics and the way that people in the family were , I could see where the roots of it are and it's not that anybody was bad .
Speaker 1But as as to your point is and he didn't necessarily use the word bad characters but if those are characters that she did not get along with or has history with is what he said the history with then trust her on the history of what happened before you , trust her that she knows her story right , and I think what ruins relationships and families or even gaslights people , is someone else is trying to tell you that you do not know your story well , but isn't that what programming and what ?
Speaker 2what really like what our lives are about ? Right ? We're not really a democracy . We don't get to choose . I mean we do , but we don't not really . And so we learn really quickly from a very young age , right ? I mean we talked about this with the superego , right , the superego is your stupid friend , because the superego is . The function of the superego in childhood is to just kind of comply and keep the status quo and keep the peace . The problem is is , as we get older , we don't let go of that because there's so much control that's placed on us . This is what you need to do . This is who you have to be . Forget who you want to be . Right you have , I mean , and think about it Right .
Speaker 2If you think about people who don't identify Right and as like heterosexual Right , they probably go through this as well . Right Of like , but this isn't who I'm supposed to be , but right . And that's why you see so many people that enter into like heterosexual relationships and then later come out of the closet Right , so to speak , and say like , oh , my God , like all along . No , like I always knew Right . But it's like we are so afraid to stand up against all of these people and just say like , no , this is not who I am , and it's because there's criticism and there's judgment . So we are literally walking around afraid to be who we are . And so , if you look at the world right , how many people do you see on a daily basis that are actually content with their lives ? Not many , not many , not many .
Speaker 1And what bugs me out always is that you know you get these rich people and and Adam and I talked about it , the , the black Republican is that you get these rich people that realize that they think the money was going to make them happy , but we see them divorcing , we see them checking themselves in the mental hospitals , we see them killing themselves because they still , despite the money , despite the money , do not know who they are .
Speaker 2Right , absolutely . Most people don't know who they are . Most people don't know who they are .
Speaker 1So , as we come to an end and we're wrapping it up there I want to think about some practical steps to become a better author of your life . And I want to ask you , lindsay , reflecting on your past and identifying key turning points , why is that important ?
Speaker 2Well , I think it's understanding where patterns come from , right , and where a lot of your decision making comes from . Does it come from me or does it come from the voice of other people ? Right , that's one of them . The other thing is really being clear in what your goals are . This is who I want to be . This is where I want to be . This is what my career should look like in my eyes .
Speaker 1So how do I get there ? Setting clear , achievable goals for the future .
Speaker 2Well , I just said that , right , like it's just being able to look at these things and decide what do I want ? How do I get there Right , even if it's you know what do I want If you have difficulty setting goals . What do I want tomorrow , a week from today ? Right , some people are able to say where do I want to be three months or six months or a year from today ?
Speaker 1Developing a positive inner dialogue and self-narrative .
Speaker 2Just be kind and compassionate with yourself . It is okay to not be okay all the time . It's okay to be lost . It's okay to be on a journey . How do I figure out where I'm going next ? It doesn't really , you know , it's not . It's okay to not be sure . I don't always need to know the answers .
Speaker 1Practicing mindfulness and being present in our decisions .
Speaker 2Well , that's a big one for me . I love mindfulness . I love mindfulness , I love meditation , but it's just being able to say , like you know what , it's okay that I don't have this , it's okay that I do have this and I don't want it . Like , this is where I am right now . That mindfulness portion is just what do I like . It's this ability to stop wanting what you want and stop not wanting what you don't want , and just being able to be actually in the moment . And finding that anchor when you get distracted is coming back to whatever . That is Like I'm just going to find my breath or I'm going to feel where I'm sitting or I'm going to hear the sounds around me , but like I'm right here right now and everything is okay Surrounding yourself with supportive and inspiring people .
Speaker 2Yeah that can be hard . It can be really hard to find like minded people . So , but it is important and it's also , and I think when you do surround yourself by people and I tell my clients when you surround yourself by people who are supportive , right , and who are , you know , following their path and they understand that you are kind of learning which path that you're on , those people are like your sangha right . Those people are like your sangha right . Those are your people who align with you , who have similar , you know kind of ideals or goals . So those are , you know . Like I say , you find like-minded people .
Speaker 1You know , um , I think that's really it for that topic . You know , and one of the important things is as , as we wrap it up and I'll let you get a last word and then I'll go off of some resources is I have actually sat and argued with people , um , that this is not your story anymore , and I've told people , like , once you become a certain age yes , I understand why when you lived in that house or you were in that relationship and you were in that situation , that was your story , but it does not have to remain your story , like , if you are unhappy with the book that you have written , you have the permission from the universe to rip that book up , throw it away .
Speaker 2And write a new one , and write a new one . Absolutely , I agree with you .
Speaker 1Yeah , and that's it . Do you have any other insights ? I don't think so . So some resources for those of you who are following along that you can find , or a resource of books , are Man's Search for Meaning by Victor E Frankel . The Power of Story . Rewrite your Destiny in Business and Life by Jim Lower . Rising Strong by Brene Brown . Some articles or some podcasts that you can listen to is the Life Coach School Podcast by Brooke Castillo . Unlocking Us by Brene Brown is the podcast , and also some websites are the Mindfulness and Self-Compassion Resources , and also some websites with mindfulness and self-compassion resources . And you can you can Google mindfulness and self-compassion resources . Positive psychology , and you can Google positive psychology tools and techniques .
Speaker 1And here's a shout out to my friend , laurie Ulster . Which is my favorite about authoring your own story is the book Everything I Need to Know I Learned from Star Trek , which was written by Dave Maraniacchio and it was published in 1994 . Maraniacchio I can't talk today , who was a lifelong Star Trek fan , actually uses this book to talk about the lessons that he learned from Star Trek and how it helped him author his own life and his own story . And Star Trek is one of the many things that I've used in my life and Laurie . I know we differ on some episodes and differ on certain aspects of Trek , but I do think we both agree that Trek has helped us author our own stories and if that's really it , that's it for me .
Speaker 1On resources , this has been Cleveland and Lindsay , and this has been another episode of the Devil you Don't Know . As always , like rate , review us , subscribe to us . On whatever platform you're listening to us on , be it iTunes , spotify or wherever we're at , and tell a friend . And also we have a feature . If you're on Apple or any of the other podcasts , you can drop us a text message and let us know what you think of the show , tell us some topics that you'd like us to talk about and so forth , and other than that , we'll see you next time . See you next time . You Thank you .
