Veterinary Blueprints
The Veterinary Blueprint Podcast is all about taking the blueprint of industry experts and breaking it down in short, digestible episodes you can use to take your practice to the next level. Join host Bill Butler as he interviews experts on client and practice management, financial strategies, human resources, and more. Gain valuable insights and stay ahead in the veterinary field by tuning in to tips from successful experts inside and outside the veterinary industry.
Veterinary Blueprints
#19 - Elevating Veterinary Practice Design: Insights from Ryan Whitley of RWE Design Build
Ready to elevate your veterinary practice to the next level? Join us in this episode of the Veterinary Blueprints Podcast as we welcome Ryan Whitley, Vice President of Business Development at RWE Design Build. Ryan's fascinating journey, which began at Midmark and led him to his current role designing state-of-the-art veterinary facilities, is filled with insights and practical advice for anyone in the veterinary field.
Discover what it takes to create a truly exceptional veterinary clinic, from selecting durable materials to designing with both functionality and budget in mind. Ryan shares real-life examples illustrating the importance of experience in designing and building a veterinary practice. Learn how thoughtful design can enhance both the workflow for veterinarians and the experience for their animal patients, ensuring your clinic is not only efficient but also welcoming and supportive.
We also tackle common pitfalls in veterinary facility design and the importance of engaging experts early in your project. Hear about the value of industry-specific knowledge and how collaboration can lead to successful outcomes. Whether you're planning a new clinic or looking to expand, this episode is packed with valuable information on avoiding costly mistakes and achieving a balanced, functional, and aesthetically pleasing veterinary practice. Don’t miss out on expert insights that could transform your approach to veterinary facility design!
Guest
Ryan Whitley
VP of Business Development
RWE Design Build
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-whitley-8a58434/
Email - ryan@rwedesignbuild.com
Host Information
Bill Buter – Contact Information
Direct – 952-208-7220
https://butlervetinsurance.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/billbutler-cic/
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Welcome to the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast brought to you by Butler Vet Insurance. Hosted by Bill Butler, the Veterinary Blueprint Podcast is for veterinarians and practice managers who are looking to learn about working on their practice instead of in their practice. Each episode we will bring you successful, proven blueprints from others, both inside and outside the veterinary industry. Welcome to today's episode.
Speaker 2:Welcome to another exciting episode of the Veterinary Blueprints Podcast, where animal health meets entrepreneurship and business ideas. I am your host, bill Butler, and today we have a very special guest joining us, ryan Whitley, vice President of Business Development at RWE Design Build. Ryan's going to bring over 14 years of experience in animal health industry, with a deep understanding of how to improve the point of care experience for both patients and caregivers. At RWE Design Build, he's been instrumental in creating innovative solutions for veterinary practices, ensuring they have the best facilities to deliver exceptional care. In today's episode, we'll dive into Ryan's journey from his extensive tenure at Midmark to his current role at RWE Design Build. We'll explore the unique challenges and opportunities in designing and building state-of-the-art veterinary facilities and how these innovations are shaping the future of animal health care. So stay tuned as we uncover Ryan's insights on emerging business acumen with passion for animal health and how practice design can drive progress in the veterinary field. This is a episode you don't want to miss, so welcome Ryan.
Speaker 3:Thank you, sir. That was an inspirational introduction and I hope I can live up to it.
Speaker 2:Well, we'll find out, that's right. So welcome Ryan. You and I met at VMX up to it. Well, we'll find out, that's right. So welcome Ryan. You and I met at VMX this year down in Orlando, correct? Kind of that last day, last hour kind of thing during VMX. Right, that's correct. So first, why don't you tell us a little bit about who Ryan is, how you're involved in animal health and what you're currently doing at RWE Design Build?
Speaker 3:Sure, started out 15 years ago or so, was lucky enough to get introduced to some folks at Midmark who at that time were not a huge name in animal health Huge on the human medical side, developing on the human dental side Probably like one of the luckiest things that ever happened to me. They're an amazing company, great partner for anybody in the industry. They're a very unique company from a manufacturing perspective just because of the breadth of products that they make. But I grew up with them so always wanted to be a part of the animal health community. Grew up as one of those kids who brought everything home with them you know, wanted every dog they saw.
Speaker 3:Thought I was going to be a veterinarian. Figured out pretty quickly that I was bad at chemistry and science and just paying attention in general for some things. So figured I would try a different path and you know, did the only thing I kind of knew growing up in a clinic. I worked at a vet clinic for five years doing all the things that you know young kids do when they grow up trying to be a technician, cleaning kennels, all that good stuff. So got some real, good, real life experience doing that and then just kind of parlayed that over to trying to get into jobs with, like you know, marielle Frontline, like anything that.
Speaker 3:I saw coming to the door, like you know that looks great.
Speaker 3:You're walking into clinics all the time and that path never really materialized for me.
Speaker 3:But I did run into Midmark, who was gracious enough to give me a chance and started a career with them up in Chicago being their animal health rep and just loved it. Just loved the industry, the people that you get to work with, whether it's distribution, financial partners, real estate partners, but more importantly, just veterinarians and their staff, like I think the thing I love most about this industry once you get into it you find that people don't leave. They may change companies but they don't leave. It's just that it's a big, small community and you kind of take care of each other and you're focused on your industry and the health of the industry. And I don't know anybody that really gets into animal health with the first thought of like I'm going to make some money. It's always everybody has the same kind of initial, you know, goal, which is, you know, love of animals, wanting to better the industry. So you know that's always kind of what's kept my interest in wanting to be a part of it.
Speaker 2:So how did you transition from Midmark to RWE Design Build and what did that look like for you in you know saying, okay, I've got my feet underneath me in the industry with Midmark and the opportunity at RWE, and now that you're there, you know, working in Chicago for Midmark, that's where RWE's, that's where our home base is right.
Speaker 3:So that's where it all started 25 years ago. The guy named Bob the Build the builder, who hooked up with some local Chicago veterinarians and just trying to figure out how do we, how do we make better clinics right? You know both medicine wise and more profitable. And that just grew into you know this, this awesome, you know situation where not only were was Bob working with these local vets, but all of a sudden word spread and RWE just became the name for building veterinary clinics in Chicago. So, obviously, working for a company that builds equipment for veterinary clinics, it just made sense for me to partner with these guys.
Speaker 3:You know, years over years, a guy named Jason Sanderson, who is the son-in-law of Bob, who started the company, eventually took over and bought the company. Him and I just had a really great relationship. If you ever meet Jason, you'll understand very quickly why he's successful. He's a straightforward guy. He's usually the smartest guy in the room. He just knows what it takes to build efficiently and build well, but he also cares right. Like you know, I was with Midmark for 15 years. I've already said like how great they are right. So it took a lot for me to leave Midmark and I wouldn't have done it for a lot of situations. And I did it for them because I believe in what RWE has already done, how they do business and you know our ability to help the industry.
Speaker 2:So you know. It's interesting that you mentioned that because you know, for me in the insurance world it's a little similar, right Like I didn't know that I specifically said I wanted to be a veterinarian. But just like in sixth grade I wrote a paper about veterinarians and why the vet industry is important to society and like the end of the paper it's actually on the shelf behind me For those of you tuning in on a clip. I basically said, like without veterinarians people would get rabies and die and all the cows would die, and like we wouldn't have any food to eat. Like that's basically the summation of my sixth grade paper that I got an A in.
Speaker 2:But I think the common thread that you really touched on, ryan, is like veterinarians and people who work in the vet industry overall are just really good people. I've had the opportunity to dabble in other industries or work with other industries as an insurance professional and I can't say the same that I really enjoy spending time with my clients and the other people. Like you know you go to VMX or you go to Western vet or you know you go to the local stuff and just overall they're like really good people in the industry. Veterinarians care the different vendors care the like. Everyone just kind of generally cares because it's easy to care, because who doesn't love dogs and cats? And you get the companion side but the mixed and large animal side, and so it's just easy to care, right A hundred percent right.
Speaker 3:I think it's been proven over and over again. Just things that I've said before in regards to people don't leave our industry, and there's a reason right.
Speaker 1:It's nothing against everybody else. I mean like I say in business.
Speaker 3:Not everybody's a great fit for everybody. That doesn't mean you're not good at your job. It doesn't mean your industry's not great. It's just certain people, I think, interact well with others better, and that's a piece of the puzzle. And there's just good people in animal health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like I'm a huge hockey fan. It's like the NHL player of the of the business world. Like you know, nhl players are down to earth, they drive pickup trucks, they might make a ton of money but, like you, just never know that they don't have a lot of the. The majority of them just don't have that kind of flash, and I think that's that's true in the animal health world, where you just they're, you know the, the business owners world, where you just they're, you know the, the business owners, the practice owners and the associates are just you know they're down to earth.
Speaker 2:So we met the last day of VMX down in down in Orlando. I'm cruising the floor and the expo hall and I I stopped by your booth. Actually, I was just walking by your booth and it said number one I forget exactly what it says Number one design build for veterinarians. I walked by and I actually came back. I kind of did that, you know, screeching, halt, walk back. And I said why are you guys number one? And you had a very good answer for me and I'm interested to share that with our listeners today what that is. Why does RWE think?
Speaker 3:they're number one. I mean to paint that picture right. It was kind of like that cartoon stop right. Like you walked by and then, like you, process the information, and then you scooted back and was like wait a minute, what? Makes you number one Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's like seven other design build dudes here, what makes you number one?
Speaker 3:And I said, well, prove me not, right. Like, what makes me not number one, prove me wrong, right. So yeah, it's funny, right.
Speaker 2:It was just funny how we met. It was the interaction, especially at the last day of the thing, because you've been there talking to a lot of people so you know I've done that too. You get a little punchy. So it was a fun, fun interaction.
Speaker 3:All in good fun, right, and there's some underground humor as to, like you know, you can make statistics say anything, right? You know what are this, what are that? Like you know, what I was referring to is is this right? But yeah, we don't have to get too much into it. You know we got a new booth. That part, that phrase, wasn't on the new booth.
Speaker 3:Not because of our interaction, not because of our interaction. But yeah, I mean ultimately. Yeah, it's just a funny way, it's a good story of how we met. I still believe we're number one just because we didn't put it on there. I still firmly believe in the fact.
Speaker 2:So my booth, I've got a pop-up banner that says we wrote the book on veterinary insurance. And then, like a veterinarian walks by and I'm like, well, here, you want a copy of my book. And like, oh, you really did actually write the book on veterinary insurance. Like, yeah, you know it's the. You gotta have fun with everything. So well, let me ask you a question a different way than Ryan. What sets RWE apart and why? You know that that number one thing, but just generally, overall. You know you've been doing this, as you mentioned, rwe specifically has been doing this for 25 years, so a lot of experience in the space. So you know there's a lot of architect, design build firms out there. I mean, you know name a company, there's some big players in the market, but then you know there's architects, there's local builders, there's. You know what does RWE bring to the table and why don't you talk about some of that process of designing and building a veterinary practice?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm happy to talk about our process and probably just process in general, right, and what I you know, what I would focus on more than like what separates RWE, you know, and us specifically in the world or in the industry is more about like people who like us, who are focused, whether that is an architectural design firm, whether that is other like design build firms or even just maybe a builder who doesn't have a design piece, right, like I would tell you, the biggest thing is that experience matters in anything, right, and that's a very relatable statement.
Speaker 3:I feel like, no matter what you do, no matter what you do in life right, if you go to somebody or you're trying something for the first time right, it's not that you can't do it, it's that you can do it, probably if you have enough time and the ability to make mistakes and learn and all that other stuff right. But if you had one shot to do something, would you want somebody in that part of their growth process or would you want somebody doing it that's been doing it for 10 years, right, and can do it very easily? You gain the advantage of that person already failing right and succeeding A number of times, yeah, a number of times, right, and?
Speaker 3:succeeding A number of times, yeah, a number of times, right, nobody's perfect. Everybody grows, everybody learns, right. So you know there's just a big advantage into working with somebody who has experience and focus under their belt Because, like I said, you gain the advantage of all their past failures and experiences, right, you get to ask those questions or they get to tell you about the things that maybe you didn't even think of. So all of that comes with it, right. So you know there's process involved in that and anybody who anybody can build something right, just like any architect can draw drawings right. But you know, when the experience comes in, it lends to certain advantages, experience levels, choices. You know things that you probably don't learn to appreciate until after the fact.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like you know, I got the opportunity upcoming episode I recorded at a veterinary practice down in Murfreesboro, tennessee, and they had built a beautiful new practice. Well, they have eight of their exam rooms. You can actually do the exam outside and they've got a little corral in the exterior. You walk through, there's a gate, you can sit on a park bench outside. There's a doorway to each individual exam room and the tech can come in. They do all the work in the room. So if they do a blood draw, they do the blood draw in the room. So you get to see what that technician's actually doing.
Speaker 2:A lot of glass, a lot of light. You can actually, you know, the operating room has a window in it because it actually the origin of the practice was a converted house. So the first iteration of that exam room was actually in the dining room with a bay window. And so one of the surgeons, one of the veterinarians, said if you don't have an outside window in the new surgery, I'm not going to come work for you at the new practice. So it was like there's so much glass and so much light, but like, until you think about those design features when you're going to build it.
Speaker 2:You just you don't have that experience and they put a lot of thought into what they were going to do. And I'm sure you know I'm actually having a space built out for me because we're moving offices and I obsessed about, well, how about this wall and where's this wall go? Because, like you're making, you know I'm just leasing an office space for seven years, but if you're going to build your own building, that is a very long-term commitment to make sure that you have something in place. So, when you're laying out and designing a practice, what are some of the big things that veterinarians just don't think about or aren't in their practice, in their process? That that maybe they're coming to the table and they just don't have. Have a thought on that they they should have when they come to the table to work with a architect or builder.
Speaker 3:Yeah, again, I hate to keep beating the same drum, but you know, again the whole experience matters thing comes into play. Right, and because I think if you don't work with somebody who's been through the process before, it's very easy to fall into the like hey, what do you?
Speaker 3:want, Right, and then just start creating what that that person or that client wants, which I'm not saying that's wrong. Obviously it's their baby, Right, You're, you want to create their dream. You want to be a part of that. Help them bring that out. But I think it's also our responsibility to throw out their options, things that we've seen right, Things to think about. So that's definitely part of the process is working through kind of like hey, like, what do you do now? What do you like doing? Right, what do you focus on? Right, and start to, like, you know, make sure that we're building the design around how they practice, right, you talked about a veterinarian who does everything inside of a clinic or inside of an exam room, right, which is part of that process. Right, If they're doing a lot of stuff in the exam room, okay. But now we have to design the exam rooms around that process right, To make it efficient and how that flows to the rest of the clinic. First there's other people who will practice and say, hey, the exam room is just in the consultation area, I don't need barely anything in there. Right, that's a place for the client to have some privacy, have a conversation, and then we head back to. You know the treatment area, procedure areas of the clinic and we do things back there. So that's a different design, right? Different clinicians will focus on different parts of veterinary medicine.
Speaker 3:You know general practice specialties, but even within general practices, you've got things that people like to focus on, right. Who's in there? Surgeons right. Do we need a single surgery suite? Do we need multiple surgery suites? Do we need a larger surgery suite that allows for two surgery tables? Are we focused on dentistry, which, if you're not focused on dentistry, I would definitely do? That. It's a huge part of revenue or it's a huge ROI producer in veterinary medicine, right. So we recommend, if applicable in your space, to get a separate dental suite, right. And if you're not going to have two tables right off the bat, if you can plan for a second table, because it could be a booming part of your practice if you're going to allocate resources towards learning that or developing it. If not, also, let's move on Next steps, right. So we don't have to go through every scenario, but that's a big part of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny that you mentioned dental, because I've had a number of veterinarians that I work with who've said, oh yeah, I'm going to start doing dental or we're expanding our dental practice. As you mentioned, it is a big revenue driver and so you know there's a lot of opportunities to do that. And if you're not planning for that on the front end, let's say you know your practice was built 25 years ago. You're a veterinarian who may have bought your practice and now you think, okay, well, now I want to add dental, but we don't have room to do it. You're converting an exam room. Or maybe you had you know the one vet that I'm thinking about they used to do kenneling and boarding, for you know, the pound or the animal control would bring dogs in and they stopped doing that. So they just had all this room with all these extra kennels.
Speaker 2:Like, well, we're going to convert that to dental. And so if you have space in the practice to maybe reallocate down the road, but you're designing that in now with potential future, maybe it's not in the cards to say, well, we're not going to do it now, but how do we maybe convert an exam room? Let's make one exam room a little bigger so we can convert it down the road and working with a builder who kind of has some of that in mind to say, okay, well, let's not have that as far away from the oxygen as we possibly can. We're going to put that one close so we can do anesthetics right. Yeah, 100% right.
Speaker 3:Whether you're trying to renovate an existing building right which can somewhat limit, you know your footprint and how you redesign, you know outside of maybe being able to do an addition, or if you're doing a ground up facility where you know you can figure it out right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can create.
Speaker 3:Yeah, 100% right. And whether it's focusing on adding more exam rooms, right. Talking about ROI producers right. Focus on adding more exam rooms, more treatment space, more special procedure space, like dentistry, like it's got to be a consideration right. And even if it's not on the immediate roadmap or plan, like you mentioned, having a plan to make it efficient and easy to add in a later date is a big part of design, for sure.
Speaker 2:So working with a design build firm I mean for the lay veterinarian out there, let's say you're just an associate working at a practice but you someday want to do that you can work with an architect and you can work with a builder and you can work with mid-mark to outfit everything. What does a design? You know you can work with an architect and you can work with a builder and you can work with you know, mid-mark to outfit everything. What does a design? You know what does it. You know. You talked about experience. What does a design build firm do technically?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I would tell you, like it's, it's a one-stop shop, right. So you know, there's that point. There's some continuity in the process, right? So if you have architects and designers internally that work at the same company, as you know the build side of it, right, there's probably some efficiencies and some synergies there as far as, like, knowing each other, right, so maybe you don't have as much back and forth. Well, that's their fault. That's this, like you know, not that no one would put a negative light on it, but just like you know. There's just a one-stop shop, right. And then there's an efficiency, with them already being very familiar. You can find the same efficiency if you had an architect and a builder that always work together, right, even though there's several entities. But I'm just saying you know that these two parties know each other and they're used to working with each other. This builder knows how to read this architect's plans. You're going to have a nice, successful build because you have that history, that continuity around it.
Speaker 3:I would say the other one would be like designing with a budget in mind or from a builder's perspective. Right, because a builder will look at plans much differently than an architect will, and I'm not saying one is right or one is wrong. But you know somebody who's purely focused on design, you know, could pick really good things for every single aspect of it, but those really good things may not necessarily align with that person's budget. So somebody who's on both sides can probably give a really good snapshot or picture of like going through the design process, maybe directing them or presenting some scenarios where, like, if you do that, then this right Like here's an alternative I might suggest that we have found over the last 25 years has given you a similar result or look, but also provides great durability and is going to last you a long time, right?
Speaker 3:So, again, drawing back from that experience piece is just like going through that and knowing, kind of, what things cost, what has lasted in veterinary clinics, because that's the other stuff. Like people who work in healthcare right, whether they build medical facilities, dental facilities or animal care facilities right Like we're. I feel like we're we're the most unique, right Like, generally speaking and I used to say this all the time selling, you know, midmark cabinets, and I truly believe they're the best option Midmark face work, synthesis shameless plug for those guys.
Speaker 2:I'm sure they appreciate it.
Speaker 3:You know our patients walk in and potentially are going to pee on the cabinets, right? You don't really have that as much in a lot of other healthcare situations.
Speaker 2:Or the lobby. I mean, I can't tell you the number of practices that I go into and I'm like, why do you have seven candles burning and it still smells like pee in here? Oh, you have LPV flooring with seams and, no matter if you like, it's not a solid surface, it gets into the flooring no matter what you do, because it's nothing against any of the practices that I work with currently that have LPV flooring where there are seams in there. But you just think if that was ceramic tile, you may not have the same issue in the lobby where you have all this happening. And man, my parents had a black lab. No matter how far my parents walked him before, he took a huge number two right in the lobby every time, no matter what they did. And so I'm sure that experience that you have to say might not want to go with this flooring option in the lobby just based on what you want to do, right yeah?
Speaker 3:And it's about giving them choices that are it doesn't have to be more expensive, necessarily right, it might just be a different choice that they don't know. Or, if somebody hasn't had experience with that, like, oh, laminate's laminate, right, laminate is waterproof but, like you mentioned, right, some is seamless, some are not right, and in our instance, you know that matters. Right, it's not just an aesthetic thing. We want to blend both durability you know anesthetics and you know anesthetics. And you know that goes back to another kind of thing that we're talking about. Right Like when looking at GCs and experience levels right Like it's, you know. I think sometimes people look at our website, which we're very proud of brand new also, shameless plug.
Speaker 3:It goes over some projects and some really great stuff that we put together. It also wouldn't be on the website, but I think some people can look at that and immediately think like, oh, these guys must be really expensive. But it's not that we're more expensive, right? It's that, again, we've been doing this for a long time. We know what works and we design to a certain spec right. It doesn't mean that we are charging more for our services. It means that the materials that we use as kind of our base process are ones that we know are proven right, that are going to give you the best product when it's all said and done, and you're going to be happy. Now can we design down from that, if needed be? Of course we can. Can you design up from that? Obviously, we can do that too, if you've got the money to do it.
Speaker 2:But how much? Yeah, how much bank? How much does the bank lend you? You know, where do you want it. Where do you want the money to go? Do you want it to go into finishes or functionality? I think there's probably two. You know two different components to to any sort of um. You know, build out, whether it's a ground up or or renovation. Where do you want the money to go? And it doesn't mean that you can't upgrade down the road, right?
Speaker 3:And what you might do in different what we call front of the house or back of the house. Right, like front of the house client facing areas, right, you might make different choices there than what you make in the back, right as far as like your aesthetic choices. And again it's all about just kind of knowing what works, what doesn't work, that person's style and giving them the best. But you know it's. You know when you're talking about like general questions that you get right away.
Speaker 3:How much does it cost per square foot? How much does this project cost? And it's a trick question, right? Because-.
Speaker 2:I get the same trick. Question Ryan on insurance. Like, well, how much is the insurance going to cost? I'm like, well, I don't know, I have no idea. What do you want to do? How much insurance do you want to buy? It can be as little insurance and just what the bank requires and you run around with hardly any coverage. Or do you want to build the Taj Mahal and have you know marble in the employee bathroom?
Speaker 3:I mean you can do A to B, a to Z right, yeah, 100% right. And that's just, like you know, again one of those early questions. Like it comes out a lot like how much does it cost, right, and you try to give general numbers. But you have to be careful when asking somebody that because everybody has a different style of how they deliver those numbers right. I always compare it to a residential setting. In my own experience I've obviously just moved into a house here. I've got stuff. Everywhere you go past a sign that says houses from the 600s or 400s, whatever it is right, so you're thinking, oh, $400,000 house, that sounds reasonable, whatever it is right.
Speaker 3:And then you get in the door and it's like well, you got to buy the lot and you got to buy your doors, and you got to go to the design studio and all of a sudden, 400 is 800. Real quick, Right. And again everybody has their own.
Speaker 2:Oh, you wanted to finish basement with your house.
Speaker 3:You know. So you know everybody's got their own process. You know, when we give out those numbers, initially what we try to do is we try to give them, try to give them the numbers where we end up, right, like generally speaking, and you can design up and down. But here are some numbers that we give out, meaning that, like you know, if everything goes per average, that this is generally where you'll end up on a cost per square footage If you do it to the spec that we recommend. And again, we can play up and down from that.
Speaker 3:But you know, you know there's like in any business, right, like if you're trying to get somebody in the door. There's like in any business, right, like if you're trying to get somebody in the door. There's also a different theory, right, where you give them a much lower and they say why are you a hundred dollars more per square foot? It's like we're not more expensive. We're talking about two different things, right, we're talking about different materials. You know something's different because we're not just a hundred dollars more per square foot.
Speaker 2:And, and so you know, when you engage a veterinarian who's interested in doing a project, where does that generally lie? You know, have they met with a bank? Have they talked to a lender? Have they, you know, have they found a lot or a location that they want to 3,000 square feet in a strip mall that they want to redo? I mean, where do you generally get engaged in the?
Speaker 3:process.
Speaker 3:We love to get engaged as early as possible, you know, just because I feel like, again drawing from that experience, we have people in-house that have been doing this for a long time and I think, even without charging anything, we can be a good resource for folks in helping them look at a space, look at a piece of land and give them a little due diligence up front as to things that may potentially impact their budget or their project.
Speaker 3:So the earlier we can be involved, the better. But no matter when we get involved, we like to do as much, right, like if things are already in place. We're not necessarily going to try to change that, but, you know, try to add something to wherever we get in so that again, we're trying to help, you know, get this towards a more positive result. But the short answer to your question is as early as possible, but the journey could start anywhere. Right, it all depends on your resources, right? And, generally speaking, distribution is obviously a great resource for clinics because they're in there all the time. They're kind of their eyes and ears as to what's going on in the industry.
Speaker 3:So, generally speaking, I feel like sometimes those guys get their ear pulled first in regards to thought of a new practice and like, hey, do you know anybody and you know that could be commercial real estate people that could be banks that are, uh, you know, focused on veterinary medicine? Uh, or the animal health community specifically, which again, shameless plug you know, uh, bank of America live, oh, provide, uh, to name a few like these are folks that have specific animal health divisions to their company right, who have products specifically designed for them. So any one of these people that I think are focused and have experience in the industry can be a good starting point and then also recommend other people that obviously they feel comfortable and confident in to recommend to be a part of that process. I feel like the more folks that you can get around you that have experience in it, the better, and I'm not saying that's just me, right, I encourage people.
Speaker 3:We were just at a convention last week for Animal Care, shelter, humane Societies, which was an amazing show Animal Care Expo that happened down in San Antonio and dealing with those folks, they were like, hey, that question comes up, like where would you start? Who should we talk to? I was like talk to a bunch of people. Like you know, I would never stop you Like, say like and try to guard you from talking to other architects. Design, build firms Like these are our peers. They're not necessarily, they're not our enemies, right? These are folks that I think you should talk to.
Speaker 2:We can't build every clinic, we can't design every clinic, so yeah, I can't insure every vet practice and and so you know, like you said, it's funny because the theme that keeps coming up in the podcast, just generally overall, whether it's an attorney, a CPA, a banker, design build is like you just need a really good team around you as a business owner. So that way, you know, cause they know animal health. As a veterinarian, you know I can't do a TPLO surgery. You know, uh, just even, uh, you know, if I, if my cat Louie, need to get castrated, I'm not doing it at home. I need, I need an expert, and so having that, having that expert who understands, even just from a device perspective and that's the thing I think is unique about this industry is, you know, I don't I'm going to speak for myself personally Like if a veterinarian says, hey, bill, here's my insurance policies, will you look at them and do these look good?
Speaker 2:Like I'm not going to say, well, you know, I'm $300 an hour to look at your insurance policy. Like it's going to take me, because of my experience, 10 minutes to look at them and go, hey, you're missing this, this and this. Just call your agent and say, hey, how much does this cost? To add, and I'm sure you know. For you it's a little bit of the same where, like you said, the first conversation is free. Like hey, I'm looking to do this. What does that look like? Like you know whether it's you or another design build firm. Like you're going to give that veterinarian 20 minutes, half hour on the phone to talk it through what they want.
Speaker 3:Ultimately, whether we're a great fit for them or somebody else, is that's all good, right? My main point to them would just be to like, again, focus on somebody that has experience is going to give them a better result and ultimately, whether it's personality process, whatever it is, if somebody is a better fit, the connection, that's all great. But, like you said in that first 20 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever it is, I feel like it's a responsible person is going to give them kind of like just some helpful tips and things to look at when talking to anybody so that you know they can make the best choice for them.
Speaker 2:With your time now with RWE? What are some of the biggest pitfalls or mistakes you've seen veterinarians make with their thought process that that you know they get to the end of the project and they and you, you may have wanted to say please don't do that.
Speaker 3:And they did or they did and they said, oh, I wish I hadn't. Yeah, I mean, maybe not as much new school, right, but I would just tell you, like you know, there are no standards in animal health building right now. Right, there's aha, you know there's fear free, like there's certain you know, associations that you can get accredited from and things like that. But, like in the human medical community, right, you have to adhere to certain standards, right, and currently for us that doesn't exist. Right, and I feel like sometimes there's this methodology of like minimalism or cost effectiveness, where you know this is the way we've always done it. It's fine, right, like that doesn't mean like how we did things 30, 40 years ago. You know that your previous clinic was designed in like we wouldn't design it that way. Just because it's okay and it works doesn't mean it's best. And if you have the ability to do it better, like, why wouldn't you? Right? So, again, it goes back to surrounding yourself with people, a team, that have experience that you know can help guide you, and keeping an open mind. Right, like you know, understanding cost versus value and going through the process of really kind of opening the doors as to, you know, what a modern day veterinary clinic can be what makes it successful and how does the way that I operate, or want to operate, how can those things come together to give me the best possible?
Speaker 3:Because there's, you know. If it was the one solution for all, it would be easy. But that's the hard part, right. Everybody does things a little bit differently. Everybody has different specialties, you know, wants, focuses. So you know it's again going back to the diversity. Like you know, we've built everything from small startup practices to an 80,000 square foot ground up specialty clinic. And we've been lucky enough to get into other things right Shelter, building, grooming facilities, right. So you know all those things come together and give you, you know, a great amount of experience to draw from to help everybody else in their own individual process.
Speaker 2:So good example is a local.
Speaker 3:I was just going to say just because I kind of got off your question there a little bit. But yeah, I mean again, I think it all just goes back to just trusting experience and going through that process with an open mind, you know as to like the way that it was doesn't have to be the way that it is. And then to let you know you mentioned it right Like smart people who run a business, you know they don't want to be the smartest person in the room. They want to work with other people that they feel like can be smarter than them at least in one aspect of the business, so that they can make the whole group better, right? So that's why you should get yourself around people who have experience within this industry, so that you can get that process moving forward in the right direction.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because one thought comes to mind. We just had one of our newest clients. They did a design build project here, local to our area in Minnesota. In the initial part of the design process they wanted to our area in Minnesota. In the initial part of the design process they wanted to do grooming and boarding and they thought, oh yeah, we'll do grooming and boarding. And when they looked at the cost and the footprint of the lot, it was a ground up build, new construction and a new business development here in Minnesota.
Speaker 2:And when they looked at the return on investment for adding grooming and boarding like it was going to take them 10 years to make the money back on the extra square footage and design build and everything else to add that in it's just like well, we're veterinarians, we were going to hire out the grooming anyway, so it wasn't even going to be us. So this like additional service really wasn't going to add any actual value to us as veterinarians. It was just an additional you know, quote, unquote service, because that's the way every veterinarian used to do. It, used to be able to get grooming and boarding. But now you know all the doggy daycare and everything else has popped up and taken a lot of that out of the practice into its own thing, where you know I think you have a lot fewer veterinarians designing that in. But they just they looked at the cost and said there's no way we can do this. So they actually cut almost 2000 square feet off their practice because they just weren't going to do it.
Speaker 3:It makes a hundred percent sense, right? Like again, like it's like facts versus perception, right. It can be different right Like well, you know, I think this person you know produces this right Just because I talk to them more. Right, when in fact, in reality, like, the data may say something separately right. Like you know, grooming makes money.
Speaker 1:And I'm not saying it doesn't right, we're saying grooming makes money.
Speaker 3:handling makes money, like okay, but have you actually evaluated that, you know, based on so again, that's another piece of the puzzle Like there's financial folks out there that can be really helpful in evaluating, especially if you already have a business and maybe you're moving to a larger facility, opening another facility, whatever it is right, like to really evaluate where your revenue is coming from so that you can use that information to help make design choices on your next facility. Right, like, oh my God, I didn't realize that dentistry is actually second on the list in what I'm in.
Speaker 3:I should definitely focus on that so again not having to get into every single scenario, but it's a great point, right To look at those things you know, because you know what has been or what. Your perception of things may not be reality.
Speaker 2:Well, I also think it's demographics really, of where you're building right, like this is a Twin Cities metro practice and there's doggy daycares and grooming everywhere. And that's where, again, working with smarter people in the room, where you've got a banker who says, well, yeah, but there's no grooming within 20 miles of your practice because you're in rural Illinois, let's say you're down in Centralia Illinois and there's no groomers down there. Well, yeah, maybe add grooming because you're the only groomer in town, exactly Coin and phrase. And then working with a design build team to say, hey, if we add grooming, what does that look like? And let's say, grooming bombs, how do we convert that to another surgery down the road?
Speaker 2:I could Well, I mean, I do the insurance on them. So I see enough and tour enough of them that you know. You see what. And the only reason I say that is I tour a lot of practices that I work with that have dog food piled up where kennels used to be and they used to do kenneling and just like you're just paying for square footage that's not being used and they want to do something with that space.
Speaker 3:I mean you just I'm sure you've seen it over and over yeah, kennels cages you know, especially if they build like the three to four story stainless steel cage banks like, becomes storage real quick, right On top of stuff. Right, and you know, sometimes we'll design to eliminate that opportunity, right, just so things don't get cluttered, because if there's a spot to lay something, technicians tend to do that right, I'll stick this cat litter up here or whatever, and it just, you know, goes where no one's going to reach it again.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, it's a great point, you know, and looking at that and again, designing, even if the things aren't necessarily clear, designing in a way that gives you some options going forward, you know, is a great idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my new office space. I'm actually putting a podcast studio in, but the podcast studio is a normal office and it's an interior room with no exterior walls. But, as say, I stopped doing a podcast, that's another office and so you know, having the ability to convert the space and again working with somebody who understands the industry overall. If there was, besides what you've already covered on as we start to wrap this up, ryan, besides what you've covered on about starting early, working with a good team, and maybe you know, you know, having some ideas about what you want the practice to be long-term and what your passions are, you know again, I think, what is the one you know. If you had one piece of advice to the veterinarian that you want to leave them with if they're walking away from your booth space, your brand new developed booth space that looks gorgeous as a design build firm, what would that be? It's a good question.
Speaker 3:I feel like I've given you like that. You know you've taken away my best answers already, but it's.
Speaker 2:Well, give me your worst answer. What's the worst answer?
Speaker 3:It's. I think it's just to be an open mind, to be honest, right, like, just you know, be the person who wants to work with people, like, don't have your preset in there block you from other ideas, right? I think that's the worst thing that can happen for somebody is people come in with different ideas of what success looks like. You know what a clinic can be, how it operates. So, again, I think it's just going back to getting into the right people and don't, you know, don't just meet with one person, right. Meet with multiple people. Figure out you know who you whether it's process a personal connection, whatever it may be right, like, understand what their history is, what their past is, what they're all about, and just put good people around you to help make a good decision, right. And then you know, going to, you know what makes a veterinary clinic great these days.
Speaker 3:Going back to that process of focusing on again your wants, your needs. Going back to that process of focusing on again your wants, your needs. Talk with people, experience who can maximize you know the success, right? Success looks different for different people, whether it's money, practicing best possible care, those two things should marry each other, right? I learned that a long time ago Again, mid-mark right Better medicine, better care. If you're doing things the right way, success follows right. Like if you're doing things medically and operating properly and getting people around you to give you the right advice, you're going to be successful. So just take that in, use that to your advantage. Advice is free mostly.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I think. And so, to add to what you just said, invest in going to a large national conference VMX, western Vet because a lot of the major players are there yourself and a lot of the other design build firms, architects, instead of. You know, I'm the supporting member chair for the local MVMA and we have these members locally. Nothing against the local ones.
Speaker 2:And you know, go see what the national guys are doing, like you, and maybe you wind up going back to say, yeah, I want somebody who's actually in my local state association versus RWE, or you know, name another one who's national. But again, go have those conversations, make an investment, and you know, you go to the large national convention and the big players are there and then you can compare and contrast that to the local player who's. Because I'm sure you see this, just about every state convention or state association has one architect, one or two design build people, a couple architects who are doing the stuff at a local market Minnesota or Chicago I'm sure RWE has some local competition in Chicago who aren't at the national shows. But if you're a veterinarian who's going to make a huge investment financially and personally, just emotionally, in building a practice, going to talk to these people at a national level, and a local level is probably a really good idea.
Speaker 3:There's so many shows now right, you know there's so many shows, whether it's specific to a certain side of the industry or just kind of in general, there's so many of, whether it's specific to a certain side of the industry or just kind of a general. There's so many of them to be able to take advantage of. But I would agree, like you know, to get the best bang for your buck. It actually is these big national shows where you know that everybody's going to be there and you know, playing off what you just said, like in no way am I saying that, like, the local person is going to be worse for you, right? Like I'm saying that there's been plenty of times where I've advised people to you know to go that route right, or to look into that. What I'm saying is that, like, if you're doing that route, I would still find somebody who has experience.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, because probably one thing more than anything else is I'm learning the timing of a construction project is critical and if you've got somebody who hasn't built a veterinary practice before, that timeline can probably balloon out of control because they just don't have the, as you've said multiple times, the experience to say. The scheduling of what happens when and how it all works is super critical with when you think you're going to open the practice.
Speaker 3:That's a good point, right, and probably the point I maybe should have made when you asked me the question about your parting advice. Right? Like is that you know cost on an invoice or a proposal isn't necessarily cost, right? Like, so somebody could give you a construction contract, right, whether we already talked about, like you know, more expensive versus using different materials. Like you know how that whole process works.
Speaker 3:But you know, cost savings on a proposal doesn't necessarily mean cost savings on a project, right? Just because if somebody can get you in a facility faster, what is that worth it to you? Right? They don't have to make certain mistakes or learn how to install this or learn how to do that, right? So even though that cost sheet is maybe a little bit less initially, if they take two or three extra months to do it, what does that cost you? Right? So there's different ways of allocating it, right? So again, it all goes back to just making sure you're talking to different people, understanding the entire scope cost, time, product. What am I getting? All those things play into the cost of an overall project versus just numbers on a page that you're saying, right?
Speaker 2:It's interesting walking around the big shows in that all of you I'm putting you in a category design build, architect you all build beautiful veterinary practices. You don't put the ugly ones in your advertising. So I think you know the takeaway for veterinarians is probably, as Ryan has alluded, to shop the market, talk to someone who can help you out. But really experience matters and there's lots of experience in the industry. Ryan Whitley at RWE Design Build can offer you that experience, along with a host of others. But, ryan, if a veterinarian was out there and wanted to engage with RWE, how would they find you? Or how would they find RWE Design Build?
Speaker 3:Yeah, rwedesignbuildcom is a great place to start. Right, look at some pictures. You can see our process. You can see some headshots of the folks that work for us. So, yeah, go there. That's a great place. You can connect with me there. You can find us on LinkedIn. We try to be as many shows as possible, but the website's a great place to start.
Speaker 2:Perfect, and it's a brand new beautiful website as well.
Speaker 3:Thank you, yeah, we like it Well.
Speaker 2:thanks so much for joining us, ryan. We really appreciated your time and insight today on the Veterinary Blueprints podcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you, sir, Great to be with you Bill.
Speaker 2:Awesome, as always. Remember to like, share and review the podcast. It helps us get the message out there and share it with your veterinary friends. Make sure to tune into the next episode of the Veterinary Blueprints podcast, where we bring business ideas to animal health. Thank you.
