Talking Registry with Rebecca Courtney

Tune into Season 1, Episode 16
Talking Registry with Rebecca Courtney

In this episode of the Brabant Bulletin podcast host, Stacy Pearsall sits down with European Brabant Registry of America's Registrar to "Talk Registry." The topic of discussion is all about the studbooks. Tune in!

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Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:09:20
Speaker 1
This is the Brabant Bulletin brought to you by the European Brabant Registry of America, where people, passion and preservation are our mission.

00:00:09:20 - 00:00:15:16
Speaker 1
I am with a very special guest today, Rebecca Courtney. She is the registrar for the European Brabant

00:00:15:16 - 00:00:36:22
Speaker 1
Registry of America. And we are going to sit down and have a chat about all things registry. I'm hoping to do this a little more often. So if you have any burning questions about registry process the breed membership, please feel free to email us at info at European Brabant.com or Registrar.

00:00:36:24 - 00:00:45:02
Speaker 1
That's registrar at European Brabant.com. If you want to ask Rebecca a question directly. All right, Rebecca, welcome to the show.

00:00:45:08 - 00:00:47:08
Speaker 2
Thanks for letting me weigh in.

00:00:47:14 - 00:00:50:01
Speaker 1
Talk to me a little bit about

00:00:50:01 - 00:00:55:04
Speaker 1
what it's like being the registrar in the office. What is your day to day like?

00:00:55:06 - 00:00:55:23
Speaker 2
Sure.

00:00:55:23 - 00:01:04:12
Speaker 2
So my day to day is driven a lot by the questions and the assistance that people are asking for.

00:01:04:12 - 00:01:18:00
Speaker 2
My primary duty as the registrar is to enter memberships and courses into our registry software. And then I'm the person who generates the registration papers,

00:01:18:00 - 00:01:29:14
Speaker 2
takes care of ordering DNA testing and getting all of that information back out to our members once the horse has been registered and everything is finalized there.

00:01:29:16 - 00:01:51:23
Speaker 2
So that's, I guess, the core of what I do. But I also spend a lot of time in education. I get a lot of questions about, you know, is this horse eligible to register? And then we talk about rules and requirements. I do a lot on social media in terms of if I see somebody listing or for sale that doesn't have papers reaching out and saying, hey, do you know the pedigree?

00:01:51:23 - 00:01:59:21
Speaker 2
Can I help you track down the documentation on this horse and get them registered? So I wouldn't say there's any one

00:01:59:21 - 00:02:07:10
Speaker 2
normal for my day as a registrar, but those are the kinds of things I'm involved in on an ongoing basis.

00:02:07:12 - 00:02:20:02
Speaker 1
Well, let's talk about those people on social media who post horse that say, Oh, this is a Brabant or it's a Brabant across X-Y-Z. When you reach out to them or you offer your services, how often do they respond?

00:02:20:02 - 00:02:21:22
Speaker 2
I would say

00:02:21:22 - 00:02:42:06
Speaker 2
many of them respond. Unfortunately, a lot of times the answer is I don't know the breeding on this horse. I was just told it was a Brabant when I bought it, which is really unfortunate. And I try really, really hard to spread the message to as many people as I can. Please, please, please get that documentation on your horse.

00:02:42:06 - 00:02:55:21
Speaker 2
Or when you are the breeder or the first owner before that traceability gets lost. And then there's not really anything that I can do to help. Once that information is lost.

00:02:55:21 - 00:03:04:09
Speaker 1
So of course, my mind goes in two different directions. Right. So I feel like this poor person who was told their horse was a Brabant

00:03:04:09 - 00:03:09:07
Speaker 1
What if that horse was never a Brabant to begin with? I mean, how often are you seeing

00:03:09:07 - 00:03:18:14
Speaker 1
social media, given the popularity of this breed, for people to maybe falsify a horse's background just to get more money or what's that like?

00:03:18:16 - 00:03:43:03
Speaker 2
I would say that's absolutely a thing. Obviously, like you said, without knowing the specific breeding behind a horse, it's not something that I would ever say to someone, Well, you know, they lied to you when you bought this horse, but there are many horses out there that are called Brabants that if you're familiar with the breed and you really get to looking at the horse, you say, you know, okay, the horse is Roan.

00:03:43:03 - 00:04:00:05
Speaker 2
And maybe his head's a little drafty, but that's about as far as it goes. So. So there is a chance that they're a very small percentage. But I would say, unfortunately, the reality is there are some unscrupulous sellers out there who are trying to capitalize on the popularity of the breed.

00:04:00:05 - 00:04:06:10
Speaker 2
one question that I get frequently is can I run a DNA test to prove that it's a Brabant?

00:04:06:12 - 00:04:10:14
Speaker 2
And unfortunately, the answer to that is not really.

00:04:10:14 - 00:04:11:23
Speaker 2
if the owner

00:04:11:23 - 00:04:44:03
Speaker 2
has a specific horse in mind that is the suspected parent and that that horse has DNA on file, then we can test and say yes or no. This this horse could or could not be the parent. But as far as just a big picture is or isn't the super Brabant, the breed tests out there that are available, that are are advertised as telling you what breeds are in your horse, unfortunately are just not specific enough to differentiate between, say, a Brabant and a very closely related American Belgian.

00:04:44:05 - 00:04:47:24
Speaker 2
So it's not something that we can use from a registry perspective.

00:04:48:01 - 00:05:21:13
Speaker 1
Hmm. I'm curious. So I said that my thought process went two ways for folks on social media who don't have documentation on their horses. And that goes back to the breeder. What would you say to the breeders out there who maybe say, I'm not going to register this foal the person? Whoever buys it can do that. What happens to those horses and what can breeders do to improve their registration and documentation?

00:05:21:13 - 00:05:23:21
Speaker 1
What kind of processes are you recommending for them?

00:05:23:21 - 00:05:26:09
Speaker 2
Sure. Well, I would definitely say

00:05:26:09 - 00:05:53:18
Speaker 2
as a breeder, to be a responsible breeder, putting papers on your horse is really a good thing to do, and that is proof to go with the horse throughout their lifetime of their breeding, their age. It helps future buyers understand maybe what health conditions they might want to look into, or, you know, that the horse is truly the age that the seller says it is.

00:05:53:20 - 00:05:54:22
Speaker 2
Unfortunately,

00:05:54:22 - 00:06:12:07
Speaker 2
a breeder could say, Here's my Brabant stallion. There's the mare that was that he bred, here's the baby. And that first buyer is confident in that. But moving forward, not having that documentation on paper, you really do lose some value to that horse by not being able to prove that.

00:06:12:07 - 00:06:14:11
Speaker 2
As far as best practices go.

00:06:14:11 - 00:06:23:21
Speaker 2
The biggest thing I would like to tell people is honestly, the registration process is not as hard perhaps as as it might sound.

00:06:23:21 - 00:06:36:03
Speaker 2
Some people, I think, get intimidated by the thought of registering a horse. There's an online registration application where you can type in your name, the foals details in the the names or registrations of the parents.

00:06:36:05 - 00:06:41:20
Speaker 2
It's one picture, two emailed to me. And then if the horse is going in one of our stud books,

00:06:41:20 - 00:06:57:01
Speaker 2
we do run a DNA test and that that can be valuable for parentage, verification in the future, as well as if for some reason those papers got lost and someone said, This is the horse. I think it is, but I don't have the papers anymore.

00:06:57:01 - 00:06:59:03
Speaker 2
We could run that DNA and confirm

00:06:59:03 - 00:07:16:04
Speaker 2
that that was the correct horse. So I am always happy to help. Stacey, I know you've helped some breeders in the past with the registration process. Please, if you're on the fence about registering a horse, just reach out to us and we will make it as painless as we possibly can.

00:07:16:04 - 00:07:25:14
Speaker 1
How far how often do you get somebody who maybe starts the registration process and then doesn't actually finish it? Like they're so close?

00:07:25:16 - 00:07:28:24
Speaker 2
Oh, I unfortunately, I get that more often than I would like.

00:07:28:24 - 00:07:36:17
Speaker 2
I wouldn't say it's a lot of horses, but, you know, one horse is one horse. Too many are the biggest

00:07:36:17 - 00:07:47:08
Speaker 2
stumbling blocks for folks that I found. One is the DNA test. People will send in all of the paperwork, pay the fees, do everything they need to.

00:07:47:14 - 00:07:53:02
Speaker 2
I will send them the form and then they just never get around to pulling here and mailing it to the lab, which is

00:07:53:02 - 00:07:55:20
Speaker 2
really unfortunate because it's not that hard.

00:07:55:22 - 00:08:07:24
Speaker 1
I get kind of makes me laugh a little bit because we're, you know, I don't know if you're if you're anything like me, I'm out there at least once a day. I'm out there twice a day. But some people maybe feed their horses once a day or go out to do wellness checks once a day. But you're out there.

00:08:07:24 - 00:08:11:06
Speaker 1
It's not that hard to yank some hairs out of a may and like. To me, it seems

00:08:11:06 - 00:08:16:11
Speaker 1
pretty easy, but I don't know what what trips people up on that.

00:08:16:12 - 00:08:41:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. And the thing is the I generate the form, the form comes via email and it has literally everything filled out. So the only thing that has to be done is to tape a hair sample on and stick it in the mail to the lab. So if you're someone that has never done DNA testing and you're a little intimidated by that process, please know that there is nothing to be intimidated about it.

00:08:41:11 - 00:08:46:06
Speaker 2
It's very easy process. And unfortunately, the other thing that

00:08:46:06 - 00:08:47:00
Speaker 2
I find

00:08:47:00 - 00:09:05:05
Speaker 2
can stall out some of our applications is getting what's called the breeder certificate, which is another reason that I really, really, really encourage breeders or the person that put that foal on the ground to handle the registration because it's so much easier. The breeder certificate is where

00:09:05:05 - 00:09:08:06
Speaker 2
you sign off on a breeding to an outside stallion.

00:09:08:06 - 00:09:27:19
Speaker 2
So if you own the mare but not the stallion, the stallion owner needs to sign off and say, yes, we did in fact cover this mare. I mean, that's much easier for the breeder to get at the time of service or when the pregnancy is confirmed than it is for someone, maybe two or three owners down the line to try and go back and get that information.

00:09:27:19 - 00:09:29:07
Speaker 2
So that is

00:09:29:07 - 00:09:34:24
Speaker 2
unfortunately one of the stumbling blocks for completing a registration.

00:09:35:01 - 00:09:37:16
Speaker 1
Right. So let's say some of the owners are,

00:09:37:16 - 00:09:45:13
Speaker 1
out there and getting their mares covered by stallions. Who is responsible for getting that certificate? Is the marriage owner

00:09:45:13 - 00:09:53:07
Speaker 1
responsibility for getting it from the stallion owner, or is a stallion owner automatically supposed descendants in mare owner are like, who's supposed to request what? Whose responsibility is that?

00:09:53:07 - 00:09:58:00
Speaker 2
That's a complicated question because I'm not sure that there is a set

00:09:58:00 - 00:10:16:15
Speaker 2
party of responsibility in the end, the mare owner is the one who is going to need that document to register the foal. So as a mare owner, if the stallion owner doesn't reach out or offer to provide that, if it's not in your contract or if it's in your contract and they're not following through,

00:10:16:15 - 00:10:17:08
Speaker 2
please,

00:10:17:08 - 00:10:21:02
Speaker 2
for lack of a better word, pester the stallion owner until you get that.

00:10:21:04 - 00:10:40:21
Speaker 2
But stallion owners as best practice, you know that the owner is going to need that to register the foal. You really want your babies to have the papers and the documentation. So you know, on any mares that we breed, it's just an automatic process as the stallion owner, I don't necessarily do it immediately unless the mare owner is asking for it.

00:10:41:02 - 00:10:48:08
Speaker 2
But certainly at the end of the year when I'm filling out my stallion reports, I'll be sending breeding certificates to all of our mare owners.

00:10:48:10 - 00:11:02:00
Speaker 1
Right. And so that's specifically for outside mare owners because you have a large herd of mares on your own. And that's what separate from your breeding, your breeding report at the end of the year, right?

00:11:02:02 - 00:11:11:04
Speaker 2
Yes, that's correct. And as a breeder, if you own the mare the stallion, it's even easier because you don't need a breeding certificate. All right? If you own both sire and dam.

00:11:11:04 - 00:11:13:22
Speaker 1
What about somebody who has

00:11:13:22 - 00:11:21:15
Speaker 1
a foal that was unregistered, who has known Brabant parents that you're so you're talking about in this situation?

00:11:21:15 - 00:11:23:05
Speaker 1
They they bought a

00:11:23:05 - 00:11:26:09
Speaker 1
They were told by whomever they bought it from. Maybe they're

00:11:26:09 - 00:11:27:15
Speaker 1
the first or the second owner

00:11:27:15 - 00:11:40:07
Speaker 1
that this particular foal unregistered, was out of the sire. And this dam, they would essentially need to go back to the original breeder and and ask for copies of the sire and dam registration.

00:11:40:07 - 00:11:42:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. So if those

00:11:42:00 - 00:12:08:15
Speaker 2
if those horses are not already on our books, I need copies of that paperwork in order to put them in the system. Sometimes folks will get lucky. And you know, maybe the stallion is a stallion who has other offspring, and I already know their pedigree and have that there. But best practice, if you're reaching out to the breeder to get the information you want to register a full would be to ask for just a copy of the registration papers just in case we need it that way.

00:12:08:20 - 00:12:12:18
Speaker 2
It saves me saying, Can you please go back to the breeder and get that?

00:12:12:20 - 00:12:23:00
Speaker 1
Mm hmm. What if these horses are not on our books? What are the acceptable registrations that primarily that you see in our community?

00:12:23:02 - 00:12:39:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. So most of the registrations as far as parent stock are going to come either from the Belgian Draft Horse Corporation of America, which is the primary stud book for the American Belgian or from the American Brabant Association.

00:12:39:08 - 00:12:48:08
Speaker 2
Occasionally you'll run into a foal out of an imported horse that maybe has a pedigree from Belgium or the Netherlands.

00:12:48:10 - 00:12:58:20
Speaker 2
But most of the time those horses at this point are young enough that that we either already have them on their books or they're not producing offspring quite yet.

00:12:58:20 - 00:13:09:13
Speaker 2
But the Belgian Corp in the ABA would be the two most common North American stud books. The Belgian Corp is really, really nice because they have an online

00:13:09:13 - 00:13:10:14
Speaker 2
registry database.

00:13:10:14 - 00:13:43:15
Speaker 2
So I can go in and actually if I know the horse's name and registration number, I can look it up even if I don't have their registration papers in front of me. So that's really helpful. Unfortunately, the ABA, their stud book is restricted access, so I don't have any way specifically if the parent is an ABA registered horse, if they're not already on our books, I'm going to have to have a copy of those papers because that's the only way I have to put them into our system and accurately assign parentage and percentage.

00:13:43:15 - 00:13:45:18
Speaker 1
Well, speaking of percentages,

00:13:45:18 - 00:13:50:17
Speaker 1
going off of the pedigrees? How do you calculate a horse's European Brabant heritage?

00:13:50:17 - 00:13:56:13
Speaker 2
the the idea of a percentage is based on the idea that

00:13:56:13 - 00:14:03:05
Speaker 2
originally the European and the American Belgian came from the same foundation stock.

00:14:03:05 - 00:14:06:23
Speaker 2
A bunch of European horses were imported very early on.

00:14:06:23 - 00:14:24:12
Speaker 2
Farmers here loved them. They bred them during the World Wars, importing stopped. So the American, Belgian and the European style Belgian were bred in two different directions, to the point where we now consider them to be two separate distinct breeds.

00:14:24:12 - 00:14:32:18
Speaker 2
So what I am doing is tracing back and the pedigree for horses imported since about 1965,

00:14:32:18 - 00:14:50:12
Speaker 2
because those those horses that were imported are the true European style, not the American style Belgian, if that makes any sense. So I am looking that through and I'm so say, for example, you have an imported stallion bred to an American Belgian mare.

00:14:50:14 - 00:15:15:01
Speaker 2
That baby is what we call a 50% because half of their genetics are coming from that full European horse and half of it are coming from the American Belgian. And obviously it gets a little more complicated. You have a lot more math to do as you go down, you know, down the generations. And maybe that 50% horse was bred to a 75% horse and calculating that it's not a hard process, but it is something that

00:15:15:01 - 00:15:20:03
Speaker 2
the average owner may not want to do themselves, in which case they're welcome to reach out.

00:15:20:03 - 00:15:26:02
Speaker 2
And I'm happy to help with tracking down that information and assigning a percentage.

00:15:26:02 - 00:15:32:11
Speaker 1
Have you found many folks asking about the difference between a European Brabant and American

00:15:33:01 - 00:15:41:20
Speaker 2
I do actually get that question fairly often, and I understand why specifically. I guess the more or

00:15:41:20 - 00:15:50:05
Speaker 2
more directly the question is, can you explain the difference between the EBRA and the ABA, the American Brabant Association?

00:15:50:05 - 00:15:54:01
Speaker 2
Because the reality is at this point, a lot of horses

00:15:54:01 - 00:16:03:06
Speaker 2
could be registered in both registries. And, you know, if somebody has an ABA horse and they want to put them on our books, most of the time that's not a problem.

00:16:03:06 - 00:16:04:13
Speaker 2
And I'm happy to do that.

00:16:04:13 - 00:16:08:07
Speaker 2
The the biggest difference that I try to explain to folks is

00:16:08:07 - 00:16:20:21
Speaker 2
that the two organizations have different goals. So the European Brabant Registry of America was founded with the goal of preserving the traditional heritage. European Brabant horse.

00:16:20:21 - 00:16:24:04
Speaker 2
We are interested in preserving that horse

00:16:24:04 - 00:16:39:22
Speaker 2
and also promoting them for a variety of different disciplines. You know, some some of our members like to go to a riding, some of them like to show some of them, you know, we have one girl who does some small jumps with her horse and they make quite a

00:16:39:22 - 00:16:42:01
Speaker 2
quite a splash in the jumper ring.

00:16:42:05 - 00:16:50:06
Speaker 2
So and certainly sorry, I shouldn't leave out the traditional workhorse side of things. We have folks who farm with horses who log with horses.

00:16:50:06 - 00:16:55:15
Speaker 2
So just the multifaceted idea of promoting the breed in all the uses that they can have.

00:16:55:15 - 00:17:06:06
Speaker 2
Now where that comes into play with the American Brabant is that the American Brabant is a new breed that's being developed with this specific goal of being

00:17:06:06 - 00:17:08:11
Speaker 2
a very ideal workhorse.

00:17:08:11 - 00:17:25:18
Speaker 2
So for a farmer who's maybe running their farm on horsepower, so they start with the same foundation stock as we do, but they breed them with that one very specific use in mind. They're crossing them on a lot of North American breeds and

00:17:25:18 - 00:17:30:20
Speaker 2
that's really where the difference comes in, is that I guess the goals and the directions the two organizations are headed.

00:17:30:20 - 00:17:46:12
Speaker 2
So over time, I anticipate we'll see some difference in phenotype in those horses as they're bred down the generations. But currently, the way things stand, like I said, a lot of horses could be registered in either or both organizations, just depending on the owner's goals.

00:17:46:14 - 00:17:51:10
Speaker 1
Yeah, and I think I think what I've heard from questions that have come to me

00:17:51:10 - 00:17:58:13
Speaker 1
is they're like, Well, I'm considering breeding to this purebred Brabant stallion.

00:17:58:13 - 00:18:11:16
Speaker 1
he's registered and the Tier one stud book of the American Brabant Association. And I said, well, you know, most definitely could be a purebred American Brabant but that does not mean

00:18:11:16 - 00:18:24:17
Speaker 1
they're a purebred European or bought in terms of the heritage, pedigree and stuff because the requirements for verifiable European heritage varies from the American Brabant Association.

00:18:24:17 - 00:18:26:13
Speaker 1
As Rebecca already said, the goals are different

00:18:26:13 - 00:18:35:14
Speaker 1
versus our mission, which is to to have a breed preservation in terms of purebred pedigree, status and traceable heritage.

00:18:35:14 - 00:18:41:12
Speaker 1
So someone may say, I have a full blooded American Brabant stud, and they absolutely probably do.

00:18:41:12 - 00:18:42:03
Speaker 1
But

00:18:42:03 - 00:18:44:06
Speaker 1
if your focus and I'm not saying

00:18:44:06 - 00:18:48:20
Speaker 1
what your focus should be, if you're looking at a horse, if you want a horse, that's a percentage horse, great.

00:18:48:20 - 00:18:51:19
Speaker 1
If you want a purebred horse, this is where it matters.

00:18:51:19 - 00:19:02:02
Speaker 1
When requesting a registration certificate from the ABA. If you're looking at a stallion for, say, or if you're looking at a foal that you want to raise up and have it be a riding horse, whatever,

00:19:02:02 - 00:19:10:02
Speaker 1
be sure to look at what percentage is on the certificate. The other thing, Rebecca, if you don't mind talking a little bit about

00:19:10:02 - 00:19:13:23
Speaker 1
the EBRA I think has a set number of

00:19:13:23 - 00:19:16:18
Speaker 1
recognized European registries.

00:19:16:20 - 00:19:20:19
Speaker 1
So let's say somebody imports a horse recently or maybe

00:19:20:19 - 00:19:22:22
Speaker 1
five, ten, 15 years ago.

00:19:22:22 - 00:19:27:04
Speaker 1
They have one from the KMBT or the VFBT. But can you talk a little bit about

00:19:27:04 - 00:19:33:05
Speaker 1
what these registries are, what they mean, what to look for, the differences or if any?

00:19:33:05 - 00:19:37:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. So you mentioned the KMBT and the VFBT

00:19:37:21 - 00:19:49:14
Speaker 2
Those are by far the most common registries that we see as far as foreign horses coming in. And that's because those are the organizations that govern the horses in Belgium.

00:19:49:14 - 00:19:50:13
Speaker 2
And then

00:19:50:13 - 00:20:01:19
Speaker 2
on the EBRA website, if you look at the pages about the purebred European Brabant, you'll see a list of all of the approved stud books.

00:20:01:21 - 00:20:03:07
Speaker 2
So there are some

00:20:03:07 - 00:20:12:07
Speaker 2
stud books that are distinct from the Belgian stud book I'm thinking of. Some of the Ardennes said books from France.

00:20:12:07 - 00:20:12:24
Speaker 2
Yeah, The ox.

00:20:13:00 - 00:20:25:04
Speaker 1
Auxois and the trait Luxembourgeous. They're all really, really similar. Maybe a little variant and in like a slight variant in phenotype

00:20:25:04 - 00:20:26:16
Speaker 1
trait. The trait du Nord

00:20:26:16 - 00:20:29:06
Speaker 1
they all came from like, the same ancestors.

00:20:29:06 - 00:20:46:04
Speaker 2
Exactly. And these are all stud books that are recognized as being essentially the same horse just in a different region type of thing. Yeah, there was, you know, when we traveled in Belgium, my husband and I traveled in Belgium looking at horses a couple of years ago and

00:20:46:04 - 00:20:54:02
Speaker 2
there is definitely some national pride that, you know, Belgium is the home of the true European Belgian horse.

00:20:54:04 - 00:21:12:21
Speaker 2
And of course, you want a horse from their stud book. But the reality is these other related stud books are recognized as being purebred European Brabant about horses just in a different area. So especially this is important as we move forward as an organization and as breeders.

00:21:12:21 - 00:21:19:12
Speaker 2
One of our goals, because the Brabant is such a rare breed even globally,

00:21:19:12 - 00:21:28:05
Speaker 2
to just try to really make sure we have an eye to genetic diversity, that we're not always importing horses with the exact same bloodlines

00:21:28:05 - 00:21:32:24
Speaker 2
because that will not be beneficial for the population here in North America.

00:21:33:01 - 00:21:38:08
Speaker 2
So that's that's kind of a side note. The one registry that I do want to mention, because

00:21:38:08 - 00:21:48:21
Speaker 2
some of our members may run across this at some point, is the Rhenish Deutsch, which is a German breed of Brabant heritage.

00:21:48:21 - 00:22:04:02
Speaker 2
I mention this breed because the American Brabant Association recently approved this as a recognized Brabant horse, and some are only three stud colts and maybe a couple of fillies were imported

00:22:04:02 - 00:22:04:22
Speaker 2
from the Rhenish

00:22:04:22 - 00:22:09:05
Speaker 2
DEUTSCH Breeders. And the reason that I'm bringing this up is because

00:22:09:05 - 00:22:36:13
Speaker 2
when we as a heritage preservation breed look at those pedigrees, we are very specifically looking for ties to Belgian horses. So the Rheinisch Deutsche has has been about European Belgian heritage, but it's also been crossed on some of the local stock. So these horses that are recognized as 100% Brabant by the ABA are not necessarily recognized as 100% by the EBRA.

00:22:36:14 - 00:22:53:09
Speaker 2
We have to do the actual pedigree research to see what percentage we were assigned to these horses. So again, the only reason I'm mentioning this is because some of these horses have been imported. So it's not a huge deal right now. But as they begin to reproduce down the road, we'll have to

00:22:53:09 - 00:22:58:13
Speaker 2
you know, if the ABA certificate says 100%, but it's 100% Rheinisch Deutsche

00:22:58:13 - 00:23:02:03
Speaker 2
DEUTSCH There's a lot more research that needs to go into that.

00:23:02:16 - 00:23:12:19
Speaker 1
I feel bad for you because if you have to go down doing pedigree tracing of a heritage breed and by heritage I mean a horse that was derived from

00:23:12:19 - 00:23:14:14
Speaker 1
the European Brabant

00:23:14:14 - 00:23:20:12
Speaker 1
German Red as an example, because these horses are accepted in the ABA and we're going to see a lot of ABA horses come into our books.

00:23:20:12 - 00:23:21:24
Speaker 1
These records are very well-kept.

00:23:21:24 - 00:23:29:18
Speaker 1
A lot of it's in German, so that's going to be difficult. And then taking the heritage, all are taking the pedigrees all the way back to,

00:23:29:18 - 00:23:32:22
Speaker 1
the mid to late 1800s. That's going to be quite a challenge.

00:23:32:22 - 00:23:35:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens when they come across my desk.

00:23:35:11 - 00:23:37:17
Speaker 1
So, yeah, we haven't had that yet. I don't think.

00:23:37:17 - 00:23:38:04
Speaker 1
And that,

00:23:38:04 - 00:23:42:16
Speaker 1
some people might even argue hey the Suffolk punch has

00:23:42:16 - 00:23:54:01
Speaker 1
European Brabant heritage and we're going I mean going back centuries the Clydesdale has brabant heritage and again going back all the way to the 1500s,

00:23:54:01 - 00:23:57:08
Speaker 1
the Percheron a number of breeds.

00:23:57:10 - 00:24:11:18
Speaker 1
But if you look at them like if you look at pictures of them, they are not the same horse. And I think, as Rebecca pointed out to the American Brabant is breeding for a certain phenotype and I think it'll just be a few more generations and they will look a lot different.

00:24:11:18 - 00:24:28:06
Speaker 1
So anyway, I, I think I got off on a little tangent there, but going back to registrations, can you talk to me about the different stud books the EBRA has and what, what do each of them really accomplish?

00:24:28:06 - 00:24:29:09
Speaker 1
What's the purpose for them?

00:24:29:09 - 00:24:57:17
Speaker 2
if you are interested in registering a horse and you start digging around, you will see that there are three separate books that you can register in. And this is where the both the percentage of the horse, but also the heritage of the horse. So the non Brabant portion of their pedigree comes into play. So probably the most straightforward stud book is the purebred European Brabant Studbook.

00:24:57:19 - 00:25:09:03
Speaker 2
This is open to horses with verified 15/16 or 93.75% or greater amounts of European blood.

00:25:09:03 - 00:25:15:06
Speaker 2
This can be offspring of imported horses. This could be horses that are direct imports from Belgium.

00:25:15:06 - 00:25:24:08
Speaker 2
If they meet that 93.75% threshold, they will be eligible for the stud book. Now, there are some rules in place as far as

00:25:24:08 - 00:25:28:11
Speaker 2
if the parents are not already on our books, they may have to pass a breed evaluation.

00:25:28:11 - 00:25:33:08
Speaker 2
I won't get into all of that right now. That's probably better suited for another episode. But

00:25:33:08 - 00:25:38:20
Speaker 2
as far as the stud book itself goes, those are what we consider are purebred horses that are

00:25:38:20 - 00:25:39:11
Speaker 2
the

00:25:39:11 - 00:25:44:08
Speaker 2
traditional type and reflect the European Brabant characteristics.

00:25:44:08 - 00:25:52:00
Speaker 2
So the next stud book that we have to talk about is called The European Brabant Stock Stud Book.

00:25:52:02 - 00:26:02:06
Speaker 2
And this is those percentage horses, 47% European blood up to that 93.75% threshold.

00:26:02:06 - 00:26:04:05
Speaker 2
And these are the horses that

00:26:04:05 - 00:26:06:14
Speaker 2
folks are using to

00:26:06:14 - 00:26:29:06
Speaker 2
breed up to the purebred status. So, you know, for example, I crossed my imported stallion on my partner in Mare. That baby is a 50%. It would go in the Brabant stock stud book. But if I breed that baby to 100% horse, then I have a 75% and then I bring it back to another 100% and I'm at 87 and a half percent.

00:26:29:08 - 00:26:32:13
Speaker 2
So through the generations you can increase the amount of

00:26:32:13 - 00:26:43:02
Speaker 2
European blood in those horses. So the Brabant stock stud book is where we house those percentage horses that are quality horses exhibiting

00:26:43:02 - 00:26:48:10
Speaker 2
Brabant history that aren’t at the full purebred blood status.

00:26:48:10 - 00:26:51:15
Speaker 2
Now the one thing I need to mention about that stud book is the

00:26:51:15 - 00:26:55:06
Speaker 2
rest of the horse's heritage has to be from a

00:26:55:06 - 00:26:56:21
Speaker 2
heavy draft breed.

00:26:56:23 - 00:27:29:08
Speaker 2
Whether that's a Percheron, a Clydesdale, a Shire or it cannot be a light horse such as a quarter horse, a Tennessee walker, a thoroughbred. And it cannot be a small draft or cob breed like a gypsy vanner or halflinger. It must be a heavy draft horse breed making up the rest of that heritage. But never fear. We have a third stud book for those light horse, those cob crosses, and that is the appendix book that's open to anything that has 23 and a half percent or greater European blood.

00:27:29:13 - 00:27:32:20
Speaker 2
And the reason we set the threshold there is basically it means that

00:27:32:20 - 00:27:40:00
Speaker 2
you have a minimum of one grandparent that was a purebred European Brabant or the equivalent perhaps from two grandparents.

00:27:40:00 - 00:27:47:20
Speaker 2
And that stud book is again, wide open to any kind of cross you want. We have a mule in that book right now.

00:27:47:20 - 00:27:50:19
Speaker 2
Maybe someday somebody will bring us this zorse that's half Brabant.

00:27:50:20 - 00:27:51:22
Speaker 2
I don't know.

00:27:51:24 - 00:27:55:10
Speaker 1
But that would be pretty tremendous. I know we have

00:27:55:10 - 00:27:57:00
Speaker 1
a fair amount of

00:27:57:00 - 00:27:57:24
Speaker 1
horses with like paint

00:27:57:24 - 00:28:00:19
Speaker 1
color that are Brabant crosses.

00:28:00:19 - 00:28:05:23
Speaker 1
Angie Rodeman breeds a fair amount of Brabants with color, as I like to call them.

00:28:05:23 - 00:28:30:16
Speaker 2
Yeah, Well, and that's really the the point of the appendix record. Some people might ask why? Why bother with an appendix record when you're focused on a purebred and preserving this breed? And that's a fair question. The reality is that we think the Brabant has a lot to offer for a variety of different uses. Whether you want to breed warm bloods for fox hunting or a ranch horse,

00:28:30:16 - 00:28:35:13
Speaker 2
maybe you want to get a hefty trail horse that that can go out

00:28:35:13 - 00:28:41:12
Speaker 2
crossing the Brabant on any number of different breeds can yield a really exciting result.

00:28:41:17 - 00:28:53:06
Speaker 2
And we wanted a place to recognize these horses for the way that they promote the use of the Brabant horse in breeding and throughout the industry, and also a way for our breeders,

00:28:53:06 - 00:29:11:17
Speaker 2
if they're breeding their stallion to say some, light horse mares, to be able to offer value to those mare owners by saying, here's a place you can get documentation on this horse, because to this point there really hasn't a place for those light horse crosses to get documentation.

00:29:11:19 - 00:29:19:09
Speaker 1
Right? Yeah, I mean, going back all the way to the beginning of our conversation about, as you say, unscrupulous

00:29:19:09 - 00:29:37:00
Speaker 1
horse dealers basically saying, oh, this is a really great draft cross. It's a Brabant going to bring good money. And I'm like, Are you just spitting that out or do you really, really know that that horse has the qualities of this breed that so many people, you know, seek?

00:29:37:02 - 00:29:37:23
Speaker 1
Is it just,

00:29:37:23 - 00:29:52:08
Speaker 1
I know you Percheron people, plug your ears, but if it's a Percheron and crossed with, say, a bay road quarter horse and you end up with a sort of draft type of warm blood that has color, it does not mean it's a Brabant So

00:29:52:08 - 00:29:57:13
Speaker 1
without that appendix record saying, yeah, this horse is legitimate,

00:29:57:13 - 00:30:00:24
Speaker 1
I wouldn't believe it. I don't know about you, Rebecca. How do you feel about it?

00:30:00:24 - 00:30:10:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I would say that more often than not, when someone says it's a Brabant my eyebrow goes up and I say, Is it on the unregistered ones?

00:30:10:09 - 00:30:10:24
Speaker 2
But

00:30:10:24 - 00:30:24:07
Speaker 2
there again, I spent a ton of time trying to educate people. A lot of people don't know that the appendix record is there and offers that option. And then unfortunately, we also run into the issue where,

00:30:24:07 - 00:30:32:07
Speaker 2
maybe this horse truly is a Brabant cross, but they're the fourth owner in tracking back to get the documentation needed to register.

00:30:32:07 - 00:30:51:18
Speaker 2
It becomes tedious. So really, really trying to get the word out that the appendix record is there. If you have foals that qualify, please document them early on. And hopefully as the years pass and the program grows, we run into less and less of these undocumented horses.

00:30:51:20 - 00:30:52:06
Speaker 1
Right?

00:30:52:06 - 00:31:11:06
Speaker 1
Well, and I think the other thing to for folks to consider here is if you cross a Brabant stallion on a light horse mare, for instance, and you end up with a beautiful, warm blood stallion who really kicks butt in the showing, whether that's in dressage or, you know, over rails, then you want to market that stallion, that stallion

00:31:11:06 - 00:31:15:16
Speaker 1
would be a 50% appendix with verifiable your European Brabant heritage.

00:31:15:20 - 00:31:18:07
Speaker 1
If he covers any other light horses

00:31:18:07 - 00:31:24:16
Speaker 1
those offspring are qualified for registration. So keep that in mind. Something to consider

00:31:24:16 - 00:31:37:12
Speaker 1
if people want to start the registration process, or perhaps they have one of those undocumented horses or they've been holdouts for whatever reason, how can they reach you, Rebecca? How can they start the process?

00:31:37:12 - 00:31:43:04
Speaker 2
the easiest thing is to email me at registrar at European Brabant dot com.

00:31:43:04 - 00:31:58:17
Speaker 2
The nice thing about email is that you can send me as many questions as you want and I will do my very best to answer them both with the information you're looking for and with links to our website. You know, do the actual online application or the guidelines or the forms that you might need.

00:31:58:17 - 00:32:00:11
Speaker 2
You're also welcome to call

00:32:00:11 - 00:32:14:04
Speaker 2
the numbers on the website. You can reach out via our Facebook page. I help monitor that account but email. Truly is nice for just me being able to send you a lot of information about what you're looking for very easily.

00:32:14:04 - 00:32:15:09
Speaker 1
Great. Rebecca, Was there anything that

00:32:15:09 - 00:32:17:16
Speaker 1
I didn't cover or that we forgot to mention?

00:32:17:16 - 00:32:21:24
Speaker 2
I think that was a great start. I'm sure we'll have more to chat about next time, but yeah.

00:32:21:24 - 00:32:24:04
Speaker 1
if you're out there and you're looking to register a

00:32:24:04 - 00:32:34:18
Speaker 1
European Brabant or maybe you have a horse and you're not really sure if it's heritage is indeed European Brabant, go to EuropeanBrabant.com All of our contact information is on there.

00:32:34:18 - 00:32:37:11
Speaker 1
Hey, at a minimum, if you're a super duper fan,

00:32:37:11 - 00:32:52:07
Speaker 1
go ahead and like and subscribe on our YouTube channel, our Facebook and Instagram, follow our blog. And of course, you're listening to this podcast. Be sure to subscribe. Until next time, don't forget to write a bond is to fly without Wings.