Equine Veterinarian Dr. Kathryn Sharbrough

S1, Episode 19: This week we sit down with equine veterinarian Dr. Kathryn Sharbrough to discuss general equine health best-practices, what to keep in your barn for emergencies, what health issues to look out for, how to build a good relationship with your vet and so much more! 

Transcript

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This is the Brabant Bulletin brought to you by the European Brabant Registry of America, where people, passion and preservation are our mission. Hello, fellow Brabanters I'm Stacy Pearsall, And I am sitting here with a very special guest, Dr. Katherine Sharbrough of the Charleston Equine Clinic. Welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I’ve known Dr. K for quite some time, but I'm going to actually lean on you Doc K for telling me a little bit about how you became a veterinarian. What drew you to the practice and what you're doing now? So I've been practicing for 12 years, been all equine the entire time. I actually went to school thinking I was going to do a small animal kind of rural in general practice, but always had grown up around horses and as I got into it more and more, I realized I wanted to be working with horses took a leap got an internship. And here I am, I guess. Yeah, well, there's a major national shortage on, as you said, rural veterinarians and in particular equine vets. Can you talk to me a little bit about why that's happening? A lot of it comes down to well, for equine. I mean, the lifestyle, it's a hard lifestyle. You're on the road a good bit unless you're at like a larger practice. You know, it can be a little isolating because not all of these practices do you have a technician with you. So a lot of times you're by yourself. And then, of course, be on call. You know, that's a pretty hard thing. And definitely it takes a lot out of you, especially if you have a family or you want children. You mean even if you don't just, you know, relationships in general, it's hard on and of course, and you're not seen as many patients as you can in a small animal practice, it's hard to make the same kind of money. And so then, of course, loans and cost of living these days is just hard on a lot of people. I feel like a lot of times that's why people either don't pursue it or switch. And it's kind of same, same story for the rural veterinarians. They face a lot of the similar problems with their field as well. Yeah, well, I know horse ownership. It's a great expense. Yeah. And oftentimes, you know, even I like I will say throughout the year for those moments when I know emergencies happen, because let's face it, every day our horses try to kill themselves. I don't know why that is what it is. But, you know, given that there is such a shortage of veterinarians and of course, we horse owners would like to maintain good relationships, as horse owners, how can we improve that relationship with our veterinarians? I think the biggest thing is, one, have that relationship. I mean, definitely there are good number of people that just don't ever call us until there's an emergency. We've got our regular routine clients that are using us for management and trying to avoid emergencies. So just having that relationship in the first place. And then I think the other biggest thing I'd say is just communication. we don't know which, clients budgets are financial limitations or, how you necessarily perceive your horse like the relationship you have, You know, all of that then comes into your decisions of how we're going to treat, you know, because we'll make all the recommendations. But, you know, it's that relationship of kind of knowing that between clients and using that to then make the best decision for the horse that so, you know, I would just say communicate and then, having that relationship. Yeah. You know so using us for vaccines and kind of the routine stuff because that's how we get to know you as a client and then also your horses. When I schedule an appointment with you, I try to have my horses ready. Yeah. So that we're not burning up 30 minutes to 45 minutes chasing a horse with a halter on the pasture. What are some of the things that you encourage horse owners to do so that they're ready for you? That is definitely a big one, is, you know, have your horse ready. Whether that's put them in a stall, put a halter on them and let them kind of stand there tied. because you're right, I'm not a horse trainer. and, you know, definitely we're often running behind because of emergencies. Things take time or, I'm having to help you catch your horse that pushes me back the rest of the day. Or sometimes we have to just say, Hey, we can't do this. You know, we'll have to reschedule. Unfortunately, I've still spent the time and you're going to get turned off accordingly. And so definitely having your horses caught, really to like having your horses be well-behaved and working with your horses, and I think that kind of goes a little bit with the same way, with farriers, like we want to work on horses that are relatively well behaved and aren't trying to, run us over or, some of that is not preventable. depending on where the horses come from, their past. But then, and I think thankfully horse owners are very open to or understanding that sometimes we've got to sedate them to get something done, for everybody's safety, not just our own, but also the owners. And then for the horse to, and so just, but just working with your horse about being handled, especially if you have a baby, start working with them about being touched, picking up their feet, getting their temperature taken. I think that gives forgotten a lot. Nobody likes to be probed in the back end. No, they don't. But that's also like one of the first things we'll ask owners to do a lot if their horses and feeling and you know is the hey what's their temperature. So just being able to do that and do it safely is is nice. Well, you know, you cared for my stud, Earl. He was in that bad accident and he was in recovery for a number of months. And he developed sort of post-traumatic stress from it. And the minute he saw scrubs coming, yeah, he would get violent and he didn't care who was around. And I think those are one of those instances where that was uncontrollable. on normal he's a pretty well-behaved horse, but understandably was just outside of his mind. And so you actually came up with a really good approach to reconditioning him. So before you would come 20, 20, 30 minutes before you come out, sedate him, and then you would come in and if needed, fully sedate him to even just drop blood. Right. And now he's gotten to a point where he will accept a needle without trying to put us in the ground. Yeah. So yeah, I think also, you know, as horse owners need to be open to taking criticism of, you know, how things are being handled or take advice about how to train listen I'm a horse trainer and I can still use advice and I can still adapt to new ways of thinking. And that really helped him a lot. And sometimes this horse owners, you're emotional and a little too close to what's happening. So taking a step back and letting somebody else take the reins so to speak, can sometimes make or break a situation with the horse. That's just my. Yeah. And, you know, I think some horses do better with, you know, different people, too. I mean, I have some horses that owners say, like I'm the only one that's been able to get this done. But then I have some horses, that kind of same thing. I know they do better with a little bit different technique too. so understanding what works for one horse isn't going to work for another. And sometimes it's trial and error until you can figure that part out. I have seen on a lot of draft horse forums and on social media that some of them are skeptical in terms of they really believe that veterinarians will kind of manifest certain ailments just to get that money. Yeah. How do you feel when you see things like that? That's the kind of stuff, truthfully, that just wears on ya. unfortunately, I guess I would say, like, is there the occasional vet? Maybe. But I would say that's rare and few and far between. Most of us are not. If we're making that recommendation, we have a valid concern. And that concern is mostly coming from our experience with other horses and other, you know, our knowledge to, you know, in that regard. Like one of the biggest things that I feel like we're doing more of, and that's because we're recognizing it more. We're getting better at it is both between dentistry and then the endocrine diseases. I'm making recommendations to test for Cushing's earlier than, you know, five years ago. Well, for somebody, let's pause right there. For somebody who doesn't really understand Cushings, who maybe doesn't have an older horse. What is that? that is endocrine disease ends up causing a lot of problems. You know, they have an increase in their ATCH. the big concerns of Cushings are going to be really laminitis is kind of your major concern. And then, too, I mean, they just are resistant to responding to antibiotics. You know, they're more susceptible to infections, You know, weight loss and or being overweight can be some issues, too, which I have two horses, one that we know for certain because we tested for Cushings, who is skinnier than bones. And then my other one who swings wildly the other direction goes Miss Rotunda. And it's interesting, we just tested her so we're waiting for those results. But I think it's really interesting. And so you said ATCH which is a hormone, essentially. Right. And as you know, she had a a late term abortion last year. She's one of my European Brabant breeding mares and was unresponsive to antibiotics, which is really, really interesting because as you continue to look her over and you're very familiar with my herd because we have a very good relationship and you see them all the time. Right. But you were like, “we probably should look at Cushings.” So for anybody who's listening and maybe some of these little boxes are being checked in your mind about something that's happening with one of your horses. Talk to your veterinarian about seeing about what Cushings is. And in particular, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's for horses of a certain age. It tends to be I mean, you know, before I think we would say like anything over 20 these days, I would say anything, you know, really over 15, and not to say that something younger couldn't have it, but I mean, we're definitely seeing early signs, in these, you know, mid-teens. Yeah. so and I think if we can get these horses started on medication sooner, we can definitely help them a lot. Now the treatment for Cushings is typically a medication called Prascend. Is that right? Prascend. Okay. And so you and I were talking because my skinny horse with Cushings does not like to eat to begin with. Now that he has Cushings, it's even worse. And so getting the Prascend in him has been rather difficult. And so you looked up an injectable which you know, for whatever reason because of the compounding and the special way it's made costs a heck of a lot of money. And so you talked about budget and I love my little thoroughbred cross and he's fun and great and of course I'm going to treat him as best I can because he all my horses are family and that's how I consider my horses. But looking at the the bigger scheme of things, I think I will just keep on trying to put a tablet down his throat by every means necessary. But again, I think that you brought up that your veterinarian is there to discuss what your boundaries are in terms of finances. Yeah. And you know, do not avoid getting care for your horse because you're afraid of the cost. Yeah. I don't know about you. You see these cases all the time. Are there any situations where you think it would just be more humane to euthanize than to just let things ride? Yes. Yeah, that's that is one of the hardest things I think I come across, is that sometimes owners, they haven't thought that far ahead because it is painful and emotional and they don't want to think about it. But, being realistic that time is going to come and you're going to have to make that decision. And truthfully, if you can't do that, you probably don't need to. I want an animal because I think is that I mean, it doesn't matter if it's a horse, a dog or any of it, it's going to happen. So be responsible and kind of think about it as much as you can in a time when it's not an emotional decision. you know, one of the biggest questions that I'll ask owners with like colic when we're seeing a horse for colic, if I have any concern about does this horse need to go to surgery, I need to know as soon as possible, cause I'd like to refer you because we don't have a surgical facility in our area, so we'd like to refer them as soon as possible. You know, if that's not on the table at all, that's fine. it's going to change how I'm going to approach the situation. so, you know, again, just communicating kind of what your, feelings are on things or what you're financially able to do is, very helpful. Right? And it's kind of funny that we're talking about end of life at the beginning of this conversation, but it's interesting to kind of work in reverse because, yeah, knowing what your limitations are financially because let's say you've got a gaggle full of kids in the house. Yeah. You know, you have to look, am I going to forgo putting food on the plates of my children, right, For the sake of keeping my horse on the right side of the dirt? And sometimes those are really tough decisions. But weighing that out and what your your financial limits are now, I'm not suggesting that you should go and euthanize your horse right away because because, you know, I don't want to face those vet bills. Don't don't go get the shotgun out just yet. Talk to your vet. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the big thing. so let's talk about a horse's sort of midlife treatment. Just routine, because you've mentioned dental is now becoming much more prevalent. And I know that my horses get routine dental care. And over the course of having horses that have come in for training and discovering that they have never had their teeth really looked at and seeing some pretty gnarly cases, which you've looked at and referred out. Talk to me a little bit about equine dental and what kind of role it's playing on the day to day for you. I do dental pretty much every day. I would recommend having your details, your oral exams done by an equine practitioner, you know, a veterinarian, not just a lay. dentist Because when I'm going and looking at these horses, I'm looking at more than just their mouth. I mean, we're looking at, you know, they get a full exam When I see them looking at just overall health, we're talking about feeding, nutrition. So, you know, there's a lot more going into my oral exam and teeth float than than just looking at the teeth. and then to around that middle age is when you definitely start seeing issues with their teeth. just depending on the horse genetics, how they've been fed, what kind of care they've had as they've gotten, you know, as they've grown up. And so just trying to decrease your risks for colic, choke, helping them to continue to maintain their weight by starting to have those routine exams. And I think the big thing, too, the biggest change is we've moved away from you know, now the dentistry isn't just about, let's go in and float the points well, you know, we're going in there with a mirror and a light and we're looking for the same stuff that your dentist, a human dentist, would. and by looking and seeing these things, we're able to treat the horse earlier, to help correct these problems. Yeah, well, I know I keep referring back to my herd, but one of the things that I noticed was that my mare was off and I had tried separating her from the herd, changing her feed, giving her time, giving her pain meds, you know, and nothing seemed to be really touching on it. And of course, you're like, well, let's have a look at her teeth and so on A general exam, it was discovered that she had points and things, But as you said, you were looking in there with a light mirror and it's like, Yeah, something's wrong here. We should probably get the X-ray out. So an x ray revealed fractures. And of course, as you said, they're, you know, probably surgically you needed to be referred out. thankfully we went took her to and got that the tooth pulled. And I will say she has been much brighter since that was healing. And so that's one thing that we've sort of eliminated from her overall well-being. So, again, Brabanters, if you're listening and you've got some horses who have a little bit of malaise or are you noticing, dropping feed or just maybe seem a little tight in the jaw or perhaps they are pulling away from the bit or, you know, they're just off? Think about the teeth. Yeah, the teeth do. I mean, they play a huge role in the the biggest fight back I get the biggest reason people say is well they're still eating or they're not losing weight. I mean, I have seen horses with broken jaws. we had a stallion that got kicked. And the top part of his jaw was literally hanging. He was still eating. You know, they are prey animals. They're going to eat, not to say that you can't have a tooth, some of them be bad enough that they do quit. But more often than not, there some pretty serious dental pathology going on and they're still eating. So it's the the little things like very subtle signs to be looking for. And definitely it's always a great place to look when you rule out other stuff and just aren't quite finding anything, you know, take a look in the mouth and see what's going on. Contrary to my thoroughbred cross, who I mentioned already, my draft horses are all very stoic. So making sure that I observing all those really small behaviors, really small changes is paramount. Can you talk to me a little bit about general health and wellness, Some of the things that are common that you see, you talked about colic. What is it that you're looking for with colic? What should people be aware of, choke, things like that? Definitely colic is a common thing we see. it can be as severe as, you know, they're constantly throwing themselves down, wanting to go down and roll to just, hey, I'm not eating my food. very mild signs, like you said, some horses are extremely stoic. those are the ones that are kind of scary just because usually if you're not paying close attention, by the time an owner notices something, we're kind of far into it. if your horse is normally a big eater, never refuses their food and then one day they're just not quite finishing it or a little slow to come, I mean, that even if something as simple as that potentially could be a sign. So just knowing your horse, and then, as far as choke, that's one too that's tricky. Don't ever I have quite a few owners that even these days still want to put a hose up the horse's mouth, which don't please don't ever do for the risk of of them aspirating. definitely. That's an instance of just call your vet and have them come out and make sure that everything's cleared before you try and feed them or, Well, yeah, I mean, so, like, the minute you suspect choking is happening, you immediately take them off the feed and off the water. definitely. I have seen some crazy cases of choke happening between the donkeys, mules, draft horses. And it's so funny because some of them seem like, my gosh, this horses are going to die and they don't call the vet. And then as soon as the vet is called and they're on their way, the choking clearing clears it. Yeah. How often? because choke is is sort of traumatic to watch. Yeah. I mean some horses are, some are very dramatic, very dramatic about it. What can owners do to kind of keep calm themselves is a lot I'm sure a lot of what you do is counseling the owner. Yeah. So what are some tips? I think the big thing is remember that it's not a blockage of their airway like it is. You know, a lot of people like with us, it's they have a blockage in their esophagus. I mean, they're able to breathe. the biggest thing really is just keeping the horse calm. and, if you're right that a lot of times if you can get the horse to calm down and and relax, then quite often they can pass it themselves and kind of work it down. I think a lot of that depends on why did they choke in the first place, But anything you can give them or to separate them from the herd, you know, we will have owners give Banemine orally, definitely, because it does seem to help in those situations just to help relax them occasionally, if the owners have some Acepromazine on hand and they're comfortable giving like injections and the muscle, you know, definitely that's something else we can do to, you know, to give the horse while we're either en route or kind of talking with the owners, deciding do we need to come? So you're talking about sedation? Yeah. Yeah. Could you get Dorm if you had it? Yeah. the the hard part with the sedation is, not every owner's comfortable giving injections. Okay? You know, and that, I think, is just dependent on the owner. You know, some of them don't like handling needles and that that's fine. So What are some of those critical things that horse owners should really keep in their cabinet for those moments? definitely having Banemine, I mean, I feel like I want every horse owner to have at least some Banemine, on hand, for emergencies and Banemine can be given orally. Yes. Yeah. So typically, you know, it's a paste or you can get it as a liquid, which then can give orally or if you're comfortable, can give it in the vein if you, you know, but don't put it in the muscle. Correct. Don't do not put it in the muscle. You'll get a Clostridial myositis, which is a very, very severe infection in the muscle, and that can be life threatening. So don't ever give it in the muscle. Banemine in the mouth. Yes. So if somebody is inclined to have sedation on hand, there is also Dorm gel, right? There is. Yeah. And that can be given orally. Yeah. But you can also get the liquid form that would be administered via muscle, so dawn gel in the mouth or I'm John the minute or injectable injectable into the muscle. Cool. so Banemine and having some sedation on hand really good what other things do we think about those would really be kind of like the mainstays I mean I don't know that you'd have to have much more on hand necessarily. You know, maybe some Bute. Definitely. We like to use that. I feel like a lot, if we suspect like an abscess or, you know, your horse comes up suddenly lame for some reason, What about like a triple antibiotic or, or anything like that? Yeah, I mean, definitely any kind of antibiotics have. I feel like everyone's going to each, you know, veterinarian has their own little favorite that they like personally, I like the the SSD or the Ascend it's a Silver Sulfadiazine or white cream that ones I think are really just good all around antibiotic cream. But yeah I mean truthfully even just Neosporin is a good just have some of that around and then definitely if you have especially if you have some routine eye things just having some ophthalmic triple antibiotic, it's a good one to have on hand to. well, we live in hurricane country and the hay flies pretty, pretty hard here. And I've had cases where my horses have been speared in the eye by hay, so I think I have three tubes of that kind of antibiotic, yeah, So we've kind of covered maybe some like what would be emergent type of care. But let's talk about routine care. We mentioned at the top about vaccinations. What types of vaccines are the kind that you don't want to miss as a horse owner? Definitely any of your. Well, I mean, any of the ones that are what we call in the core. So that would be your eastern and Western encephalitis, your West Nile virus, tetanus, and then definitely rabies as well. but especially around here, you know, all those that are mosquito borne diseases can cause pretty significant neurologic disease. and then, you know, unfortunately with your encephalitis ones, those can, can definitely lead to, to death. So definitely want to cover for those in this area. you know, we never actually get cold so the mosquitoes are here year round. I mean, we had them in January. so we do vaccinate for that more frequently than other parts of the country. And so just knowing that too, and talking with your vet, if you're moving around in different parts of the country, just finding out the differences, when to vaccinate, you know, to the other thing I'd say with that and like the Northeast, you know, they vaccinate more for Potomac horse fever. whereas we don't vaccinate for that at all down in the southeast, we just don't have it here. and then, getting with your veterinarian to know which vaccines are very important, depending on where you are. But those are going to be the mainstay at least once a year, if not more frequently. Now you also did equine reproduction, which as a general care practitioner now you still do a lot of reproduction. So I know you helped me here on the farm with reproduction. So for folks who are maybe already into breeding or people who are looking to breed their mare for the first time this season, what kind of things should they be thinking about in terms of support of veterinary care? One, I mean, your mare needs to be healthy. She needs to be in a good body condition. definitely want her vaccinated. The last thing you want to do is go through all the time of breeding her and trying have her in foal to have something happen cause you aren't doing just kind of routine management, you know, with the vaccines. just good nutrition, deworming and things like that. So, speaking of deworming, for a general horse owner, you know, there's of year round worming kits that you can get, and I see a lot of eye rolling happening here. I tend to do a fecal analysis and kind of get a general sense of my herd of where everybody's at and worm accordingly, which is what is sort of prescribed today, knowing that horses can become resistant or not horses themselves, but the parasites. Right. So what are you recommending now? what's the the protocols that you're recommending to horse owners? I mean, definitely if you go once a year, at least, and then we've kind of, you know, kind of make recommendations based on what those levels are, the biggest thing I'd say is that fecal you don't want to check it right after you've warmed your horse because that's not going to give you a truly accurate, number of kind of what they have. And so ideally you're wanting to check them kind of right before your, you need to deworm them. you know, and just depending on your horse, your situation anywhere from twice a year to four times a year is kind of what we're tend to recommend. really don't need deworming more frequently than that unless they're a baby. So anything less than two years old, we tend to do worm a little more frequently just because they're still building that immune system. But otherwise they tend to not need deworming more than than four times a year. are there any conditions that you see specific to draft horses that you could talk about? I mean, definitely the, the biggest one is CPL definitely that was probably the biggest thing I feel like the most common one we see. and that's across breeds. Yeah. I mean definitely, you know, seen it and we've seen it a lot in our, the Persians or a lot of is being used for the carriage industry or here in South Carolina. And then, you know, even some of the Clydesdales I feel like have a hard time here. They tend to have anhydrous is another kind of big one we see with the draft horses. I had a going all summer because of the headdresses and that's and I was told that anhydrous is really can affect horses here in the south because they have such a large surface area to try and cool dry and sweat and then their system just shuts down. So you know, what I see is one thing on the market. I think there are several other companies who are sort of developing, for anhydrous, but nothing seems to be a good host down in a fan for for my horses. Yeah. There, you know, unfortunately, there's not a great cure for that. and, you know, there's been a lot of anecdotal evidence that like acupuncture can help a good bit too, and definitely some, some herbs and, you know, that kind of treatment. But, but you're right, you know, in the end, kind of while you're working on all of that the the hose and the fan or misters and the fan can make a make a big difference. so anhydrous is CPR Was there any other things that draft horses might be a little more prone to Like you said, the PSM definitely see that a good bet with them. instead of just managing. And then, you know, I guess I would say like metabolic issues as far as like insulin resistance and we definitely see a good bit of that with them as well. the EBRA hosted a clinic over last summer with Doctor Beth Valentine who really specialized in sort of muscle disorders and was one of the veterinarians early on part of that discovery, of some Epsom is what she called it, but, and metabolic disorder in which she kind of kind of throws them a little bit together. she was talking about draft horses had evolved to have these metabolic what we what we would see is metabolic disorders. Right. But they evolved to do that because they were working in the fields all the time and weren't eating all the time. And what food they were eating was pretty lousy. Yeah, but now they have an abundance of food and so they look like fat ticks sitting out there, which presents a lot of problems. So for any of you draft horse owners who are listening, please check out Dr. Beth Valentine's. We have her information on a blog on our website. We also have her information from the clinic on the members portal. You can watch the whole clinic and we publicly posted her diet recommendations, which is simple feed hay, lots of forage, lots of exercise and add fat. That's what she said. Go, go to the Wal Mart, get yourself some soy oil and give it to them as much as they can tolerate. Yeah, so yeah. Metabolic problems. What other ways? Aside from adding fat are you seeing help nothing too effective? I tell you, just an exercise. And the biggest thing is, you know, exercise and then limit in this area, you know, kind of limiting what they're taking in. And it's that balance of you want good quality while also watching calories so so grazing muzzles might be a good alternative to letting your pastures grow a little taller. Yeah. You know, longer grass. I know we all want to have beautifully manicured pastures and mowed, but oftentimes that shorter grass contains more sugar and more sugar for our metabolic horses is not a good thing. Yeah. So limiting that, letting them grow a little taller, let them get a little wild and then check your horse for ticks. Yeah, because know that thing that comes up. awesome. So is there anything that you see with working, working draft horses? I know you, you see a lot of the horses working the industry downtown or the carriage company, any sort of physically working injuries, things like that that we may be looking out for? any kind of nerve damage, muscle atrophy, like where you have just ill fitting equipment. making sure everything is fitting properly and that even I'll go a little bit back to, even you're riding horses, you know, making sure your saddle fits. Saddle fit is a huge problem with lameness that we see. A lot of it can be traced back to a poor fitting saddle. well, Lou, for draft horse owners, we're trying to better to. Yeah. Try to get a light horse saddle on a draft horse. It's just doesn't fit. And then it pinches and it hurts. Yeah. Yeah. And you can cause damage if you do that long enough. I mean, you even get some, you know, hind end, you know, hind leg lameness. I mean it can really affect them. that, you know, would be the big thing is just making sure your all your harnesses and everything fit properly. Yeah. And here's the moment where I plug a treeless saddle. Yeah. For the draft horses. For the draft horse. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you can get a saddle fitter out to talk to you a little bit about what's best. A best fit for riding a draft horse and a saddle. Yeah, I would agree is maybe a treeless saddle or a bareback saddle that's going to accommodate you. How do you tell if a horse has an ill fitted harness? Are you just looking for like where from? How would you know? Because you can't really see bruising underneath the hair. What are you looking for? kind of going off of what I know with saddle fitting. And then from what I've seen with horses that have a poorly fitted harness that causes that muscle atrophy of their shoulders, I guess I'd be looking for, are there any holes like when you have it on, are there any big spaces, you know, gaping, run your hand under it... Does it feel like it's pinching at any points. and then check them afterwards, almost massage them where the harness was. do you get any kind of reaction, where they could be then starting to tense that muscle. you know. Well, yeah. And there's something as simple as like if you're running your hand along their shoulder and you notice their eyes are starting to blink rapidly, that's a sign of discomfort and pain. Like I said, these draft horses are so stoic and it's sometimes so it's really what would see imperceptible responses are their way of screaming. That hurts. Yeah. as we wrap up, because I know I've taken up a lot of your time, is there anything that we haven't really covered that you would like to add? Have that relationship with your veterinarian. Think about realistically what you can afford and then be open to discussing that with your veterinarian. And then also just be a little more understanding and a little patient if we call and say, well, we're running behind. We have this emergency, we're stretched thin. Especially in kind of these more rural areas, you know, it takes time to get from point A to point B, so be patient and understanding that sometimes things happen. Thankfully most horse owners understand that if we call and say, hey, we're in an emergency, if their horse was having an emergency, they would want that same other owners to be understand to, yeah. Have you offered any sort of level of like telehealth? Has that, has that been helpful? Will that save you a trip? Yeah, I think truthfully, I feel like we've always done that. Okay. truthfully feel like we do more of that these days. I feel like we've always done that. I guess with texting and pictures like that part, we can do a better job or even like video, like being able to send videos and things like that. But definitely, we use that a good bit. A lot of times owners will send me a picture, if I get a call on the weekend or at night and they're, hey, I'm not sure does this need stitches? Send me a picture. I'll take a look and we can, hopefully get a better idea. at least triaging, right? Yeah. Like, is there something we need to see tonight, or can we kind of talk you through something and, hey, try this if that doesn't improve, let’s see him. I mean, even back to colic, you know, depending on. Hey, if I've got three other calls I'm already going to see, and you call me with your horse that's colicky. I mean, we're going to have to triage until I can get there or until we decide for sure kind of how bad it is. Do we need to see it? You know, things like that. So definitely just, again, triaging it and we'll definitely do that Communication, text and pictures and all of that. Yeah, it definitely has helped as we've kind of lost veterinarians and, and everything. Well, myself personally, I want to thank you for everything that you do for us here on the farm. We always need to be very, very thankful to our veterinarians because they're under an immense amount of pressure. There's so far few of them today that we should never take her for granted all the things that they do and sacrificing time away from their families for the long days that they're on call. And When your horse is sick, it's like the end of the world because it's your family. And they’re seeing ten and 12 people having meltdowns every day. And so let's let's give them some emotional support when we can and lift them up where we can. And so, Doctor K, I appreciate you taking the time to chat with everybody. And I hope I don't see you very. Yeah. At least not for emergencies, for anybody who has any questions, veterinarian or otherwise, feel free to drop us a line info@europeanbrabant.com And until next time, remember to ride a Brabant is to fly without wings. Thanks Doctor K. Definitely, Thank you.