Meeting People
Amul Pandya converses with independent, adventurous and sometimes courteous free spirits. Creativity is an act of rebellion. Whether they are entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, investors, chefs, or corporate antagonists, Amul's guests all share a common disposition of not just pushing boundaries but re-drawing landscapes.
Meeting People
#10 Sasha Papadin: A Renaissance Man
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It's not often one gets to sit down with a bona fide Renaissance Man. When not restoring vintage furniture in Northern California, Sasha Papadin is a singer, songwriter, DJ, producer, and instrumentalist. He also is one of the most erudite people I know.
We start our conversation with Sasha's origins, recounting how his father, a poet, evaded national service in the Soviet Union during the 1960's by studying and emulating Schizophrenia. This was followed by learning about Sasha's musical journey (it started by writing a song for a film he produced as a teenager) and a discussion on the broader topic of creativity. We touch on artificial intelligence, spirituality, heroes (Nick Cave and Tom Waits to name two), and the current state of his adopted homeland - California.
What's amazing about speaking to people like Sasha is that you learn something about yourself in the process. I hope our conversation can do something similar for you. You can find Sasha's music on Spotify under the name Loverman:
https://open.spotify.com/artist/6mH930VvONxn76Kqpnixjy?si=_zHqNnNFTY6fWQyAUyX7Sg.
Creativity and Rebellion With Sasha Papadin
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to Meeting People with me, amol Pandey. Meeting People is a podcast where I have long conversations with adventurous, rebellious and sometimes courteous free spirits. Right, thanks everyone for joining Eagle-eared. Regular listeners will have noticed already that it's not our traditional intro music and what you heard is a song by my next guest, sasha papadin. Hello, sasha, hello. Thanks for joining. Pleasure. Um, lots to talk about, particularly on the music side, but I thought what we'd start off with is just going back a generation if that's all right.
Speaker 1Yeah, I want to ask you about one of your songs, st Petersburg Nights. What is the inspiration for that song? And, yeah, what is it? What's the context for putting that together?
Speaker 3Yeah, well, the song is. It's about my parents meeting in St Petersburg. The original title was the Ballad of Val and Ella, which is my parents' names. Well, in a way I'm putting myself in their shoes. I'm singing it first person, but it's very much kind of a riffing on their story of how they met in St Petersburg. My father was Russian and my mother was English, and she was on a package tour of England in the late 70s and met my father.
Speaker 1He was a pretty wild poet In Leningrad.
Speaker 3In Leningrad at the time, yeah and um, they fell in love and she went back to England and eventually flew back on her own and married him and they, you know, emigrated to to the UK. But that first time when they were getting to know each other in Leningrad, you know, my father was being followed by the KGB and he'd had a history of being sort of a dissident troublemaker in their eyes. And so they were. You know, they have these amazing stories. Well, they're both gone now, but they've, you know, I was, I was raised on them, you know, being followed by a black car down the streets, yes and um, you know the phones being tapped and, uh, you know, stopped at every train station or border crossing. You know, and you know that that whole thing like total Cold War. You know craziness. So the song is really about that. It's about falling in love, you know.
Speaker 1Against that backdrop, and what was his gripes about the Soviet Union? What was he dissenting against? I know it's obvious, but what caused from your memory, what caused him to kind of not toe the line?
Speaker 3yeah, well, he, you know, I think it was a, I think he had a a really strong anti-authoritarian strain to him on a personal level. His, his stance wasn't overtly political, it bled into that. But you know, it started when he was, um, you know, 18 and they were. He had to go into forced military service. I think you served like two or three years there, right, right and when was this roughly sorry? Like uh well, I think it would have been 19, something like 1960, 63. 60s.
Speaker 1Yeah, somewhere around there, so at the height of the tensions.
Speaker 3Height of the tensions.
Speaker 1Cold War where it was really kind of touch and go whether civilization was going to carry on or not.
Speaker 3Yeah, exactly, and he was. You know, he was a kid from Siberia. He was already starting to write poetry. I think you know he's very free. When he joined the um, or was forced to join the the army, he began exhibiting these symptoms in an attempt to get kicked out and they put him in a mental asylum for for the criminally insane and he spent a few months there and was eventually released, but the authorities, I think, had a feeling that he was faking. Yeah, you know, and so I think he was. He was kind of on a list. I think they were keeping an eye on him. Clearly, this guy is a troublemaker. He's not towing the party line and then when he's out now he's, you know, 2021 and he's in leningrad and he's starting to write poetry and the poetry is all about freedom and all these things.
Speaker 3Now you've got even more reason to have him on a blacklist, you know, because they were. They were surveilling all of the artists at that time. You know, um, so he, he sort of um. Yeah, he just he was on their radar and once you're on there on the kgb's radar, you just don't really get off of it.
Speaker 1No, yeah amazing, I think, um, you know this podcast is. The theme of it, as you know is, is people who don't listen to the rules or don't like being told to do in many ways, and the national service I have friends who kind of?
Speaker 1you know I, I get it, I get the thesis behind it. I mean, even today there's, you know, there's there's issues with young people and that's when, maybe, give them some structure and give them some something to kind of teach them basic life skills before they go into the real world. But the reality is that it's a real one-size-fits-all solution and it's no accident that people that tend to come on this podcast or like it are more of the artistic favor, because they're the first, people that are purposefully or or or not trying to find where the rules don't work or where they don't apply.
Speaker 1But there's a cost to that, I'm guessing, and you don't have to answer this from your dad's perspective. But do you think that in the last podcast with Alex Martin I asked him a question about a phrase of his called deformation professionnel, where you kind of of you become the thing you do?
Speaker 3do you?
Speaker 1think there was a cost to him learning to be schizophrenic and then acting it and then having to sustain that act in the one place, surrounded by schizophrenic peers? Do you think that kind of for people, what you can talk about your father or not, but for people, um, that getting that that's an unintended consequence of getting out of national service effectively?
Speaker 3yeah, undoubtedly, I'm sure. I mean, I know it affected him. I think, you know, having kind of a bohemian artistic lifestyle allows you to fold, fold that in kind of quite seamlessly, you know, because artists are generally a bit crazy. So and and he and he and he was interested in that line between you know what's real and what's imagined, you know which I, I think artists are always sort of like going over that border, think artists are always sort of like going over that border. Um, and and he, he was perpetually working on this memoir, he's written, he's written, he wrote a short memoir and he was before he passed. He had written up sort of a more expanded version and a lot of it took place in that well, in that place. So it was, it clearly haunted him and it was clearly something he was still processing.
Speaker 1You know, it really defined a lot of his life yeah, again, like you can imagine being in his shoes in the asylum and going god, can I do another day of this? Maybe I just do the national service yeah, I asked him that once.
Speaker 3I said, you know, like looking back, don't you think it would have just been easier just to like go and? Do a couple years or two years and, um, he said his response was, you know, he couldn't, he just that wasn't really part of his character to to take orders in that way. And also it's not, it's not just like, oh you know, like doing national service in like a pleasant country. I think the the death rate among conscripts in the ussr at the time was a staggering amount.
Speaker 3I think it was, like you know, five percent or something. The beatings, the hazing, all of that stuff.
Speaker 1It was not a an easy journey and you've got a target on your back from this proper soldiers, who probably resent you a little bit for having to yeah, yeah particularly the art. They'll see the spot.
Speaker 3The artistic ones, oh yeah, yeah, the little daisies, yeah, yeah, yeah, um yeah, and so how much of obviously you're a musician in part.
Speaker 1You've used a phrase called the Renaissance man. What does it mean to you to aspire to be a Renaissance man? Can you define it for people listening actually and then talk about what it means to you?
Speaker 3That definitely comes from my father. Yeah, he raised me with that phrase and he would. He would always say you know, you have to be a renaissance man, you have to be able to do many things well and, um, I, I. My definition of that is that in the, in the study of learning to do something, you learn more about yourself and about all the other things that you have previously learned or mastered.
The Intersection of Creativity and Mastery
Speaker 3Hopefully is the important part. In a way, once you've learned something or hopefully mastered it, you're sort of done with that. Now you don't really, you know, you can kind of put it aside, you know, because it's sort of you've explored it all, you know. And so he instilled in me that appreciation for that process, and so that's what a Renaissance man to me is. You know, something that I admire in people that that have that in the arts, but also everywhere else. You know, I think entrepreneurs and business people have an amazing sort of potential for creativity and and being a Renaissance man, and I, I, I, I love that spirit in any sector, not just in the arts.
Speaker 1Yeah, a friend of mine challenges me not to talk about Steve Jobs in every damn podcast episode. I do.
Speaker 3So sorry, sorry, Jan, here we go.
Speaker 1His big thing was operating at the intersection of technology and humanities, or science and humanities. You need to understand both, and the kind of purest engineer mindset always looks at from a things from a perspective of what can't be done, and a pure artist looks at things from and maybe an impractical, non non-real-world sense. So if you can mesh together different skills, you've got a chance of creating something that can have a lasting impact. I guess a challenge for the sake of a challenge is does one at some point in life need to kind of triple down on a mission or a calling?
Speaker 3yeah, that's a good, rather than being a dilettante. Being a dilettante, yeah, that's, it has a romantic, you know, but do you get?
Speaker 1do you get shit done by being a dilettante versus dub, you know, doubling, tripling down on your calling yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a.
Speaker 3That's a good question. I think that's a danger. I do, I do. I think you get. That's why I think the key is, I mentioned, you know, mastering something. You know seeing a dilettante won't do that. Yes, you know, and I think you can't lose sight of that. When you see something, you can't just like take a class and how to crochet and say, right, I've done that and then move on. You know, it's like the point is to kind of really figure it out and understand it. You know so fluently that you can put it aside now and you know you've you've gleaned what you could from that process. But it's only really when you've mastered it that I think you're kind of there it sounds like a mindset rather than a goal setting approach.
Speaker 1Is that right?
Speaker 3Yes, correct, I think so, I think so, and you know not to get too like pretentious about it, but I think you know it kind of. It reveals the silver thread that can run through a lot of things that seemingly don't really go together, like you mentioned, arts and science and all that you know there are these silver threads and when you start to see them, that's really illuminating.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm going to rehash a story from the first episode I did with an investor called Simon Evan cook.
Speaker 1He talks about a celebrity chef who was invited by the Royal Navy to look at how they basically keep submariners healthy.
Speaker 1Okay, because they're under, you know, they have a pretty sedentary existence when they're on tour or under the water for months on end.
Speaker 1And he effectively figured out using the technique of sous vide, which, uh, you know, a naval procurement officer would just not have the ability. And it took a few goes and iterations over the course of the TV series that kind of shadowed this, but effectively he found a way to sous vide and vacuum pack very healthy food rather than having crates and crates of vegetables and stuff just coming in, taking up lots of storage space and the chef is therefore just warming stuff up that has been pre-prepared, that is healthy and that saved. That meant they could be underwater for longer, they could patrol for longer and people were kind of more nimble on their feet and more reactive. So a celebrity chef managed to kind of improve the defense of the realm in a way that a pure specialist with a, with a, with a who has tripled down on their, on their field yeah wouldn't have been able to do and so bringing it out that kind of beginner's mindset, is this thing that goes around a lot.
Speaker 1Okay, yeah, find the next thing that you can people sort of revel in starting at the beginning again yeah and approaching, approaching, learning I think it's super valuable, yeah, yeah so where else? So okay, no, let's talk about. Let's talk about music then. Okay, because that's what people have first heard about you. When did you first realize you were into music? Or were you following instruction from your dad that I need to be a Renaissance man? So music is the first place.
Speaker 3No. So I wanted to be a filmmaker. When I was younger that was my and I made a short film and it was. No one is allowed to see it because it's the most pretentious piece of shit you could imagine it was like 12 minutes of pure pretension. No one is allowed to see it, because it's the most pretentious piece of shit you could imagine.
Speaker 1It was like 12 minutes of pure pretension. We're not necessarily against pretentiousness on this podcast.
Speaker 3Oh, you're going to love the rest of this interview. Then, when I made the short, I needed music for it, and so there was a piano in the house that I was living in and I didn't know how to play it, but I just set up one of these mics on it and I just was plonking around literally memorizing. I played this key and then that it needed something very sparse and like piano. You know, like I said, very pretentious short film. You can imagine the score that goes with it. But when I was finished with the film I realized it was trash.
Speaker 3But the score was actually really good, yeah, and there was something there, and the process of that was so much more satisfying and immediate than making the film that I found myself coming back to that piano and playing some more and then learning how to play music and I was like, oh, this is so much better than raising some money to like shoot a film and it's such a long process. You can just sit at the piano and write a song. So that kind of hooked me. And then I taught myself how to play guitar and piano and started writing and that's what got me into it and it and it totally took over, started writing songs started writing songs.
Speaker 3Yeah, so I never. I never. Traditionally, people learn how to play like covers. You know, you learn how to play wonderwall and then you start writing your, your music. I never, I never learned how to do that. Even now, when I try to do a cover, it's so strange to me. Now I can, I can figure it out, but I I went straight into writing original material because that was just that came very easily to me yes, although I want to challenge you on that, but keep going, okay, yeah um, so that that eclipsed film and I switched passions.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's interesting, because people tend to switch because they like the romantic idea of something, and then they start it and they go, oh this is quite hard, let me switch to something else. And then they spend their whole life switching at the base, which is something that I have been guilty of at times.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And I just want to pick you up on that kind of you. Just, you know, you sat on the piano and then all of a sudden you had a song that you'd never played, this instrument never played before. What insights can someone listening glean from that? That? Would they? A lot of people would have a get out, get out of jail card there and go.
Speaker 1Well, he's obviously just genetically predisposed to that and so, um, that's not relevant to me, or and maybe you're not trying to teach you anything by saying that you're just recounting experience, but there must have been more to it than that. There must have been a persistence or a desire that caused you to do that, rather than you just were blessed with this endowment by up and high.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, I mean, it wasn't very complicated.
Speaker 3It wasn't very complicated you know, but I think the way something is sort of constructed has always appealed to me. You know a song or a movie, or you know furniture, you know, and it's like, well, you know how does this go together and why does it work, and sort of, and so it was kind of a there was some curiosity there. Yes, you know, and then look, I absolutely think anybody can sit down at a piano and not know how to play anything. You could literally just put you know 15 notes together in sequence and that is a song there's. That's not much to it. It might not be a great song, that is something you know. And if you like it and you think there's more to this mine, then you can go in and see what else you can and then you apply the craft mindset yeah to, to that, yeah, iterate yeah yeah, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1And so you, you, um, you realize you started writing songs, were you? Were you in parallel honing other skills at the same time? Or was it were you totally focused on that?
Speaker 3No, I was, I was doing that. I was doing that I would say half the time, and the other half the time when I needed to make money, I would do furniture restoration or design.
Speaker 1Yes, and I would build. You know which is what you do full time, not which is what you do full-time, not full-time, but as your primary.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, yeah, to make money. You certainly don't make any money on music.
Craftsmanship, Emotion, and Creative Inspiration
Speaker 1Although we'll do a plug for your songs later, but you've got quite a few downloads on Spotify and it's very good, so we'll maybe one day keep going yeah. I'm waiting, I'm yeah yeah, so you, yeah, how do you get into furniture? What, what you know? We have a phrase, as you know, in english so and so has become part of the furniture, which is a way of denigrating the person, but it also denigrates the furniture in some ways, because you?
Speaker 3yeah, I find that a deeply offensive comment yeah, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1Well, exactly that's the thing the phrase is is designed to something that you, you, you look at, yeah, and you try and make as beautiful as possible. Yeah, has become in the minds of people's background noise, yeah, or purely functional, but actually they probably derive huge value from it. They just don't realize it when they do see walk into a room with beautiful furniture yeah or that's probably been made or thoughtfully put together by someone in.
Speaker 1you're at the beginning of the food chain or you're upstream to that, so how did you recognize that and get into it?
Speaker 3Well, doing repairs and restoration, you know. I think again appeal to wanting to know how something works and why it's like that and how do you fix it you know, right, and there's a craft element to that. You know right, and there's a craft element to that, um and um. It's interesting, you know, furniture is especially on the restoration front. People have incredibly emotional attachment to their furniture. Some people don't realize it but, like you know, you have like your favorite chair that you sit in and it's it's not worth five pounds.
Speaker 3You know you, you know, but you wouldn't lose that for anything, like you would sit in it or your dining table or your sofa, right like there's. These are. People form very sentimental attachments and so, being you know I I started doing repairs and restoration. People would bring in pieces. It was like my grandma's table, or you know, I bought this chair and I nursed my kid in it and now I want to restore it and having, you know, breakdown in tears when the when the work was done, because they it was. It was the way they remembered it when they were a child or when their, their, their child was young, um, so there was this very emotional aspect to it that I loved, um, and feeling like you're part of sort of a lineage of that particular piece. You're sort of keeping it from the landfill and putting it back in action, you know.
Speaker 3So to me that's part of the craft thing and the kind of the study of like how something works, and I found it very compatible, compatible with making music. In fact my music studio was sort of a walled off section of my shop and a lot of my clients didn't even know I had a music studio back there. That was the sort of. That was what happened in the evening there, but there was this kind of very simpatico relationship of craft between the two operations people from the outside would see dissonance, but actually they were, as you say, simpatico yeah, to me, to me they were both, they were part of the same laboratory.
Speaker 3Yeah, you know do you?
Speaker 1who are your heroes?
Speaker 3um, you know, I would say people like Nick Cave is a huge hero of mine.
Speaker 1People like I'm going to feign ignorance here, okay, and therefore maybe one or two people listening too, so can you. Who is Nick Cave. Why should we care?
Speaker 3He's an Australian musician Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds and he's just sort of an amazing creative mind. He's also a wonderful writer. He's written a lot about grief. He's an intellectual. He's written a lot about religion and spirituality and songwriting. He's kind of multi-talented and I find him very inspiring. I think he approaches life as an artist in which I find kind of liberating. It's outside of just the music world. So he's a huge model and a reference point for me. People like Tom Waits, leonard Cohen.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3You know, and more kind of meta to music.
Speaker 1People like Tom Waits and Leonard Cohen, yeah, yeah. You know, and more kind of meta to music from that Renaissance perspective. Yeah, are there people? I mean, the obvious one is Da Vinci. You know who did the Vitruvian man and was the kind of genesis of that concept? Yeah, did the Vitruvian man and was the kind of Genesis of that concept of being very highly accomplished at lots of things.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Which we can aspire to. But beyond music to who, who, who? The people you kind of have looked up to have been helpful to you.
Speaker 3I'm kind of blanking.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, I, I mean I you know well, steve, you mentioned steve jobs, I'll, I'll take that you know, I mean, I I find him inspiring and I do sense this sort of Steve Jobs about you, in that you're not a douchebag, obviously Right.
Speaker 3You're a terrible judge of character.
Speaker 1But that aesthetic sensibility. You know he couldn't buy furniture right. Because he just couldn't, he didn't have the time.
Speaker 3Is this true? Yeah, oh really, His houses where he lived for large parts of his life.
Speaker 1He didn't have the time. Is this true? Yeah, oh really. His houses where he lived for large parts of his life. He couldn't furnish them because he would find things ugly, and unless it was beautiful he didn't want to have anything to do with it. Oh interesting. So he'd go to his house and there'd be nothing there, and it was a weight that carried him right through to his final days. So he was. You know, there's a really sad story of when he's recovering from a cancer operation.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1And he's sort of flitting in and out of consciousness and this nurse tries to put a respirator or one of those breathing masks over his and he kind of rips it off and goes it's ugly. I can think I'm going to give you some designs to make this look a bit better, because there's 10 different ways we can make this more functional and you know which is like the?
Speaker 1nurse is like can you stop being a dick and just put it on right right and some people, some people hear that story and go like you know what, what a douche. And other people kind of go wild like you couldn't. That again going referencing back to alex martin, you know that distaste of ugliness, that that dislike of ugliness, yeah, as a real thing to be avoided, which people don't think about. So I'm guessing that you, or unintentionally you, are focused on creating beauty for the world.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, I think you know you're, you're like something. I think when you're creating something, you're like you're creating it because it's the way it's been done before is wrong. It seemed, it feels wrong to you, and so you're you're trying to fix it or correct it, you know.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Otherwise you wouldn't do it. You know, if somebody's done it like you, would you know, you, you, why would you be compelled, yeah, to do that, you know? Um, so, yeah, I suppose I, I don't, I don't really think about it in terms of beauty or not, but I just feel like I need to make a better version, a version that better represents, you know, the world as I see it, or the world as I'm experiencing it.
Speaker 1You know well, there's interesting because, also, like in the soviet Union thing, because profit was frowned on, there was no incentive to do things differently or put your own flavor on them, so things just started looking the same. So yeah, glasses, mugs, tables, chairs, you know there was no point adding color to it because you're not allowed to sell it for any more than the person down the road, so you lost that artistic application on the world, whether from a commercial perspective or not. Yeah, so maybe there's something there.
Speaker 3Yes, there's definitely a real beauty vacuum in that era of Russian creativity.
Speaker 1For a nation or a part of the world that has produced serious art.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Are you a fan of Russian literature?
Speaker 3Oh yes, absolutely. Some of the best.
Speaker 1I've done some Dostoevsky Crime and Punishment and Brothers Karamazov yeah, the latter I probably need to read again a couple of times. My wife's more of a Tolstoy gal. Okay, yeah, she's War and Peace. She's doing Anna Karenina now actually. But one person I thought might resonate with you is Solzhenitsyn.
Speaker 2Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1Is that someone? You've read much?
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean, I've read a day in the life of yes, yeah, that's the one we all go for.
Speaker 3Yes yes, yeah, you know, I, I, my dad, had very strong opinions about russian literature. Being a writer and and having read them all and he was, he was very opinionated and he felt like solzhenitsyn didn't quite you know sure, get up there with pushkin and dostoevsky and goggle, you know. So, um, I think that definitely colored my opinion of it. He found him a bit, you know, dry and pedantic, um, but I, I really enjoyed it and um, I I think it's fantastic. Also, this guy lermontov. He wrote a short book called A Hero of Our Time, which is amazing. But, yeah, I mean, russian literature, it's some of the greatest.
Speaker 1There's a great scene in. It's amazing how humorous a book like Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich can be.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1You know, for people who haven't read it, it's short. I highly recommend it. It's basically one day in the Gul of Ivan Denisovich can be. Yeah, you know, for people who haven't read it, it's short, I highly recommend it. It's basically one day in the Gulag. Yeah, and there's a moment there's a rule in the Gulag where if the temperatures hit below minus 40, no one has to work, and so every morning at a certain time after waking up, there's the checking of the thermometer. This guy has to kind of climb this pole, yeah, and there's a sort of people walking past nervous tension. Could today be the day we don't have to go and, you know, do back-breaking labor?
Speaker 1yeah yeah and you know, it feels that day that he's writing, feels extra cold and he's unwell and he's umming and ahhing about whether he should go for the medical bay or not, and if he doesn't get in then it's big problems. If he gets in it's big problems, so there's no right, you know. But this person kind of climbs the pole and then you know, no only minus 23 guys back to work and it was this written it actually.
Speaker 1Just I was laughing and it's obviously for something so deeply tragic. Yeah, I mean certainly flitting about from sultan and listen to orwell, who? Orwell, who kind of said there's four reasons why people write and one of the four reasons is for political reasons. I would, and I would put salt and it's in that camp he was. His aim was, yes, to maybe sound good and be beautiful, but more to shape the world in a certain way.
Speaker 1He was successful as anyone by waking up Western intellectuals to the damage that was being done. You're a Hitchens fan.
Speaker 3Love Hitchens.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 1I've never read any.
Speaker 3Hitchens. I put him up there in my top heroes. Actually I should mention him. Yeah, heroes slash role models.
Speaker 1Yeah, how does? Are you? Does that? Do you have any spirituality? And if so, does that create dissonance with Hitchens or are you kind of aligned with him on his views on religion and God?
Speaker 3Yes and yes.
Speaker 1Yes and God yes and yes, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3Okay, yeah, I don't find it in contradiction to what he says. In fact, I love it. I mean, he was a good. He was good friends, I believe, with Paul Tillich.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 3Do you know that fellow?
Speaker 1No.
Speaker 3I think he was English, but he famously said you know'm, when I'm speaking with an atheist, I'm a catholic, and when I'm speaking with catholics, I'm an atheist yes, you know um that resonates with me. Yeah, yeah, I don't see, I don't, I've never understood why. That's like everything hitchens says about religion I completely agree with, and I and I think any serious Christian or serious you know, a person who's interested in spirituality. I don't see how they can be offended or find that in contradiction with what's so you know.
Speaker 1Obviously true my only pushback is I don't think maybe it's not a pushback, but religiosity or religious behavior, yeah, is in human nature. Yeah, maybe he was particularly religious about his anti-theism in some ways. But we, you know it's a bit like energy it does. It just goes from one form to another and so we sort of shifted from Christianity to wokeism or greenism in a way. If you look at, I'm all for, maybe from a small C conservative standpoint. We have a duty to the environment for future generations. But environmentalism with a catalyst sort of become very religious. You know it's got its its child prophet, it's got. You know it doesn't tolerate dissent and you know, at least the old religions that have been around for a long time have that sort of lindy or durability to them that have more guidance or insight for people in the world. I do feel there's a bit of a vacuum, like kind of the wokeism just doesn't cut it.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 1For a young person coming, you know, grappling with how to approach the world, world I know it's inept, it's, it doesn't.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah and like, and like the new gurus. Now you know, like you know andrew tate on one side.
Speaker 3Let's say exactly, or like, uh, jordan peterson or you know like those are like who young people are looking to for guidance, you know which is kind of. I mean nothing against jordan peters or whatever. Some of his stuff is interesting, but that it's a bit pathetic. If you're looking for a real sort of elder, you know, input like that, if those are your options, that's. That's rough, because religion's really not providing that right now at least the mainstream religions aren't, you know no you kind of they're so.
Speaker 1I mean Nietzsche predicted this right.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And it's sort of transpiring. Where you look at the Church of England, it's basically an atheist. It behaves like an atheistic institution that's so terrified of you know, upsetting a secular or upset a secular apple cart yeah and it's.
Parenting, Creativity, and Artificial Intelligence
Speaker 1It's creating this vacuum and you know we need I, I guess. Okay, so let me. Let me put it another way. Your childhood was based on the experiences of some pretty dramatic experiences of your father that you've mentioned about, you know, trying to basically run away from the authorities. Is there a danger as parents today that you've mentioned about trying to basically run away from the authorities? Is there a danger as parents today, that we are just over-protecting or trying to mitigate too much downside for our kids and not giving them those rich experiences that can inform an artistic sensibility, whether it's helicopter parenting or I mean I know people who tend to be artists or entrepreneurs of a successful nature have some sort of challenging upbringing. Often you look at Elon Steve Jobs was. He had a very comfortable upbringing but he was adopted. How do you approach parenting with your experiences?
Speaker 3What, like, do I make things as difficult as possible for them? Well, that's the thing.
Speaker 1Like you know, do you go? God, is this just all a bit too easy?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1You're never going to have an edge because you don't you haven't experienced anything dangerous um, that's tricky.
Speaker 3I don't think, I don't think you can, I don't think you can artificially create that and, and and you know you want to, and what?
Speaker 3nor do you want, nor do you want to. Yeah, and also so like just speaking about my childhood, I think there was a very fine line that was often crossed between a very you know wild, you know interesting, bohemian childhood and being in, in, in, in, and crossing the line into just like a chaos. That could that kind of created some trauma and tension. Okay, right, and that's never good. Tension is never good. You know you want to, you want to push somebody far enough that they can grow stronger from the experience, but you don't want to damage them or create strain. That then is it just sort of accumulates scar tissue throughout their life, right, so, and then you're you're behaving on the wrong motivations.
Speaker 1You yeah, you've got a point to prove, or?
Speaker 3yeah, you're you're.
Speaker 3You're in battle against the world, rather than flowing with it yeah, exactly, and I'm and I and I, I think it's a it's that we have a sick fascination with that. The value of that kind of suffering, like even when you mentioned steve jobs, like like that saddens me. That he looked at the mask that way, like that sounds like, you know, could he not be free from his own sort of obsessiveness, and like it would be great if he could be, if he could just be a little more separate from it, if he just had a little bit less of attention around, that he would be liberated from it and still able to use it, and you know, that would.
Speaker 1That's the ideal that's reading his biography by wal Isaacson was was the running conflict I had in my head the whole way through. Like you know, don't park in the disabled bay.
Speaker 2You don't need to do that.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Or like that mindset of you know he had, you know, um, he believed whether he believed it or he was doing it just to, because he could, or just to test people that he didn't smell right, his diet. He said I don't need to bathe because, oh, he didn't bathe. He did well when he was younger. So when he was, you know, apple was doing well, yeah, he was going into board meetings, he wasn't wearing socks and he's like because of my diet I don't sweat.
Speaker 1In a certain way that doesn't create because I really eat fruit or something. And everyone's like, no, steve, you need to have a bath before you come to board meetings. And he's like, no, no, 30 people tell you you smell and you still don't give a shit. Yeah, and it's, you know. And you think, okay, he got kicked out. Maybe when he comes back he's going to be a bit more mellow, and so that's the kind of grappling Could he be him without and still do what he did? Do what he did? Yeah. And maybe an answer is that some of some people just overweigh the impact they can have on the broader world and underweigh the negative impact as a result they have on people around them, close to them totally, totally and one example of that sorry is when they were developing the screen of the Mac 2.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1They were spending the kind of deadlines, all that kind of stuff and the title bar. So you know where you kind of minimize, maximize and it tells you what window you've got open.
Speaker 1They were. The team was spending. Steve was spending a bit too much time on this. Yeah, can we? We've got other things we need to do to get this ready to ship on time. And he was like, can you imagine having to stare at that all day? We have to get this right for the. Yeah, he was thinking I'm not going to upset the team, I don't care about upsetting the team. I care about the millions of people who I want to bring into computing and make computing mainstream for for it to be right for them and my daughter, my family, my employees they're very tertiary to that. It'd be nice to be able to do both yeah, but it's tough.
Speaker 3It's tough and I you know, I think you know, most geniuses are very unpleasant. Yes, you know, I mean van morrison, bob dylan, the stories of people in the studio with them. They're just like oh they're assholes.
Speaker 1What was Bob Dylan?
Speaker 3I think Bob Dylan's kind of a little kookier, maybe he's more on the eccentric side, but Van Morrison's like you know, sort of. You know there's a lot of stories about what an asshole he was, but you know Picasso's a big one wasn't he yeah, yeah. But at the same time, like you know, if you're if, if, if you're in order to make something great, you have to ignore what the idiots around you are telling you to do.
Speaker 1Yeah Right, it can't be done.
Speaker 3It can't be done. It can't be. You should make it sound like this we need a hit, we need, you know, whatever. So you're so used to ignoring them and you, and, and you have to. You know, like, if you're a polite person and a producer's like, hey, you know, van, like maybe try something like this, you'd be like, okay, I'll try it. You know, thanks for your input. You know that you, you, you waste a day, you, you go down the wrong road. You know you have to develop this kind of asshole response because you know time is precious and you have to like, get in there and like, let's, let's, let's stay focused on making something original.
Speaker 1You know and I think also you weed out people who aren't on board. Yeah, because if the mission is more important to your team, then feeling liked yeah they're more likely to get it right right and people for whom it matters you know how they're approached or how they're spoken to. Yeah, yeah, um do you?
Speaker 1um worry about or is ai an opportunity? And I'll give you some context for that question. Yeah, there's definitely a sense I get and people have written about this where the algorithm or the backward looking data, the, the roe, the roi return on investment for what has worked in the past is now dominating more than ever with, let's say, films. You know every film's a reboot, it's a rehash it's a prequel, it's a sequel, every song, now that is.
Speaker 1I'm sure the recording studios are kind of like look, we know what a hit song is yeah so let's just stick to it yeah and it's based on backward looking data, not new um new insights.
Speaker 1So when we're running, it feels like we've hit the end of the road with music. You know it started with Bach or it didn't start with Bach. Obviously, it started much before and it ends with Taylor Swift and we're going to. You know, no disrespect, she doesn't really care what I think, I'm sure, but you know where does it go from here? Or is the algorithm a huge opportunity, because the ai will do that for you and therefore real creators can then use that fast track, the muscle memory, and it'll be a much better environment for art. You know boutique artisanal creators such as yourself yeah, I agree with the latter totally.
Speaker 3Yeah, I, I'm hopeful about it, I think it's exciting. I don't know where it's going to go, but I think I think, um, you know, I think the time is right for, for a shake-up, and it's exciting when you don't know where you know art's going to go. Yeah, and I think the question now, what? What is an artist if? If a computer program can do 90 of what you've been doing, what makes an artist and what makes a human? You know, and I think figuring out what that question is is, you know, really exciting. Um, because I think so many humans are just making music like a machine. Anyways, you know, I'd rather machine do it, I'd rather, you know, save them the time. Yeah, you know. So I'm not threatened by that, you know, and I don't, I'm excited to see where it goes. You know, I think there's, you know, I mean, mean the amount of times you're in a studio like doing that. You're spending all day and you're doing the same, the same beat that's been recorded thousands of times before.
Speaker 3You're like this is so ridiculous, like isn't there a way to make this happen more quickly so that we can get on with? You know the actual creativity, and I look forward to the days when you can just go in and say I want the michael jackson's beat from billy jean and I want you know the bass line from this song and you know like something in that style and you can put it together and then it's. You know, you can sort of really put your the human element on that because we are doing that, whether we realize it or not, we are yeah drawing on sources yeah we're drawing on our own algorithms.
Speaker 1Yeah, because the impact of listening to michael jackson 100 times as a 17 year old is probably playing out without you realizing or not.
Speaker 3Yeah, now when you're in the recording studio doing a completely unrelated song yeah, yeah, and I think you know, I think there's some discomfort around that, you know, because the busy work of doing things is gives you the the illusion that you're doing something or that you're creating something, but really I don't think we are, we're just repeating busy being busy busy being busy yeah, and it will be a big.
Speaker 1It's quite. It's quite scary, I guess, when tasks get taken away from you and you're like, oh, now what do I do? Because and I think this is a technology, is a liberator, but it also it. You know, being liberated is not some. It is not easy for those who are enslaved sadly.
Speaker 3I'm sure that's an awkward transition. What do I do now?
Speaker 1Yeah, so what is real creativity to you, then?
Speaker 3God real puff questions here.
Speaker 1Yeah, the hard ones come later what?
Speaker 3okay, what is creativity? Is that sorry?
Speaker 1well, you, you, you mentioned that you know it'd be good to get away the menial stuff so I can focus on the real creativity yeah, oh, I see yeah so right I said that maybe people can rewind and check. I think I do um, well, I I.
Speaker 3That's the question. I think that's the.
Speaker 1That's what I think we'd be trying to figure out.
Speaker 3Yeah because you're, you're, you know, isolating it, you know, from all the busy work you know. So we have, for the first time, we might be seeing it very clearly like what is, you know, this essential human element in creativity? And what is that? But, padded with all of the rote, you know, um, stuff that we've learned and recycled, um, so I'm excited to see what that is, I. But I don't, I don't know what it, I don't know what it is. I think there's, I think there's always an element of magic in creativity, something a little mysterious, not a little very mysterious and unknown. When something is coming together and I think there's just an innate part of us that is really, you know, drawn to that and is captivated by it.
Speaker 1There's is that. That's the muse, as some people call it, the muse that comes you've got to turn up, but the muse will yes do you struggle?
Speaker 3use like higher, higher energies. You know god, whatever you want to call it, like the spirit in the room, like it is. But there's this thing that appears right and every writer and painter and, you know, inventor knows it. It's bigger than you are and it's mysterious and you want to know more about it. You know, and it's elusive, it's like you can't summon it, you can't difficult to describe, as you can see by my words. You know, but it's real and there is something hypnotic about it that you want to come back to it again and again.
Speaker 1And do you? How do you? We're in a world of abundant disruption and distraction. How do you cope with being creative or practicing your craft with calls on your attention from your phone or the news? Do you have a protocol to switch off? Do you have any habits or tactics? Is it getting up early? Is it just turning up making time for it, or has it got harder?
Speaker 3yeah, that's a good question, uh, uh, for myself, I think it's. Yeah, there's something about turning up, you know, and knowing when I need it in a way, you know, for me I work a lot at night or at evenings, interesting you know, and I often find myself charged up and I'll go and start working on something and and then, and I always find out, it was like a full moon that night and I, you know, and I and I didn't, I didn't know it at the time, you know, so it was like, you know, I don't know what that means, but something sort of was, like, you know, awakened and, you know, drawn to something, and it's like I need to go and communicate with this muse, you know, awakened and, you know, drawn to something, and it's like I need to go and communicate with this muse, you know you know, what.
Speaker 2I mean.
Speaker 1Yeah, and when you the the, there's no right answer. And if there is an answer, that kind of the magic gets taken away. You know, someone was asking what is? How do you define the divine? And they're like well, I can't, because if I I do, then it's not divine yeah, exactly, um, exactly this mystery yeah, yeah, have you heard of the is?
California's Myth and Reality
Speaker 1well, there's a parable used by peter drucker, who's this management guru, but he calls it the, the three stonemason parable okay, and it's basically uh, man walks down the road, sees three stonemason parable Okay, and it's basically a man walks down a road, sees three stonemasons and goes to the first one. What are you doing? I'm working hard to earn a living, to support my family and be a good citizen. That goes to the stonemason Number two. What are you doing? And the stonemason Number two what are you doing?
Speaker 1And the stonemason goes I am practicing my craft to be the best stonemason in the world. And then stonemason number three looks up with the eyes of a zealot, with kind of energy and tension, and goes I'm building a cathedral and I've. It's a great little story, but it it's. It's slightly frustrating in a way, because it means that you're permanently. I find myself turning away from stuff a lot because it's not my cathedral, but I don't know what my cathedral is, and yeah it means that you don't do number two and then you barely kind of do number one because it's um.
Speaker 1Is that something that resonates with you? Or or do you feel like your cathedral is not just the stone, it's everything, it's the windows too?
Speaker 3yeah, the furniture. Yeah, um, were you not listening? I don't work in stone. I don't know, I don't know, I don't. Yeah, I don't know what the cathedral is. Yeah, yeah, but again, I think it's that, it's that there's definitely a search for it. You know, I'm looking for that sort of experience. You know, I guess I'm always trying to build it. I guess I am always trying to build a cathedral. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1I never thought about it in that way, but I guess it's the wrong mindset, because a cathedral indicates an end point and there isn't one really Right, you've just got to keep going Right the journey is the reward, as they say.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1Just circling back to the parenting question, yeah, something that's been on on mine and my, my wife's mind about parenting and we've thought about some. You know, how do you create some sort of you know, edge or niche or differentiation?
Speaker 1sounds awful, sounds like you're designing a product, but giving your, giving your kids something that's sort of a little bit different and one one answer was you know we should live abroad at some point, right, oh yeah, um, and then you kind of you start who knows when we're gonna the universities to conspire to it, or we've got to commit, but we always. It's fun post-bedtime chat to kind of imagine where would it be you know, if you had the map in front of you and you go well, it's got to be somewhere hot or somewhere like why leave england to go to another cold, wet, yeah, gray country?
Speaker 1yeah right, so you go. Okay, so that writes off certain parts. I can't deal with bureaucracy. I can't deal with like just I want some good air quality, I want some nice scenery, I want some good weather, I need to be able to work, I need some sort of economic and slowly you just narrow down everything and the only answer Is to stay no.
Speaker 3Well, maybe, yeah, that's what happens in here?
Speaker 1Yeah, god. Yeah, and maybe yeah, that's what happens and yeah, yeah, we'll have this conversation 40 years time. Did you leave knowing it, but no, you end up the. The answer is has always been california oh yeah, oh interesting um now it feels like that's no longer the case.
Speaker 1If you read the news now, people, people will be questioning why sasha doesn't sound russian or english, considering your um, your parents are russian, english, so I can. Yeah, spoiler alert, you're california. Yeah, um, when did you go there? And and what does it mean to you? To what does California mean to you? Because it has this magical sense in people's minds.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Which is maybe diminishing somewhat.
Speaker 3That's what drew my parents there. So we emigrated to California from England and then Italy. We lived in Italy for three years and then we immigrated to California. I was this was in like 1987. So I was seven years old when we moved there.
Speaker 3And my parents were definitely drawn to California because of that, that mythological sort of status that it has of being the Western frontier. You know the place you go to, you know make your own way right, and it's always sunny and there's always beaches and everyone's tan, and it very much still has that spirit. It very much still does it's, I think, changed as it does. It's, I think, you know, changed, you know as it does. You know, I think that you know we've been living in England for the last, you know, few years on and off, and I think going back has been very interesting because we kind of seen it from now from slightly more of an outside perspective. Yeah, and like yourself, observing people's reactions when you mention california, everyone has that same reaction like, oh wow, california, like it just has such a status in people's, in people's minds, um, so I think fresh orange juice, you think skiing, you think the beach yeah, like yeah, avocados and silicon valley and yeah, and la and hollywood and and and, but it's obviously a huge place.
Speaker 1It's huge a source of you know. You read about the homelessness problem or the regulatory burden, the tax burden that businesses have to go through, and the crime. There's a story maybe apocryphal, maybe not where people in certain parts have to.
Speaker 1They basically empty their cars at night and they leave their car windows open, they leave the boot open so that the car doesn't get broken into because there's nothing to steal here. Yeah, and you kind of feel like, if that's normal behavior, that feels like kind of end of civilization type stuff, yes, is that worry you, or do you think it's just part of the friction of life and it's just a cyclical thing that will just, over time, progression and we'll take take its normal course?
Speaker 3Yeah, I think so. All of those reports are true. I think they are that that is all pretty accurate. And you know, we live north of san francisco and the sort of wine country and san francisco is very much like that, like the break. Everyone. I've known so many people I've had their cars broken into. I've had my cars broken into. You know, people do leave their windows down sometimes or they put a note in the window like nothing inside, please don't do it. And that is that is happening. That is happening. I think some of those stories are sort of taken out of context and amplified, yeah, and I think there's a lot of very strange murky interest groups that are, you know, amplifying those stories in it I think, what are they?
Speaker 3well, I I think there's a lot of right-wing conservative groups that right, or states that want to paint california as a liberal disaster okay whose policies are failing its citizens.
Speaker 3You know, you know, this is what happens when you don't put people in jail for shoplifting, as shoplifting goes rampant. You know this, you, if you don't put people in jail for breaking into cars, this is what happens, right, because that's what it. What these? Why this is happening is like the san francisco da has sort of decided not to prosecute some of these low-level crimes, yeah, and so that kind of opened the floodgates that's the reason they give I, I would.
Speaker 1I I have another view, but which we can talk about later. But has then, I mean the has there not been some sort of business exodus? Oh yeah, sam from from california to florida, like texas or something. Yeah, no there.
Speaker 3There has been, there has been. But you know, I mean they leave. Some of them are probably going to come back. Business-wise it makes a lot more sense, like to to leave right, like tesla did, and all that. That totally makes sense. But I don't know, I don't know if you know california, it it's. It's such a it's at such a premium right now that you can't really open the floodgates to deregulation. And you know all that stuff for, like, big factories because it's so expensive, like I don't know.
Speaker 1I that isn't the problem and I don't think california is unique. You know, you go to any western city, go to paris. It's happening in london. You know, homelessness crime.
Speaker 1It's a function, I believe, of land basically being privately owned yeah, and yeah therefore, it's the one factor of production from an economic theory perspective that is fixed and is um, and all of us are at the mercy of landowners who jack up the rents, jack up the prices because they can, and the more economic progress there is, the more the prices go up, the more land speculation goes on, and you know we were talking about it earlier it becomes you're just. The cost of a coffee is not to the pockets of the people working in the cafeteria, it's going to the landowner to pay the rent.
Speaker 1Um, and this isn't a california specific problem, this is a uk europe yeah, exactly, yeah, I mean it's the most, and it is, this is, it is at its most demonstrable at the most economically advanced, the most progressed parts of the West.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1That's where the symptoms of this kind of land ownership manifest themselves. This is Henry George, 19th century economist, who um argued this that we, should you know you shouldn't tax labor, it should be no tax on your wages and you shouldn't tax capital. Actually, labor and capital are not in conflict with each other. The big conflict is labor and capital versus landowners, um, and something's got to break that, because people just can't get access to housing yeah and hence homelessness.
Speaker 3And he predicted in 1850 look, homelessness is going to go on the rise right, right, and you kind of read it, you go, wow, this is, this is really playing out yeah um, yeah, so maybe california will be the one that takes us out of this as a result, because they've got the most to lose.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I know a lot of people who have moved out of California because there is a feeling that I don't want to downplay, the feeling that it has changed and it's gotten impossibly expensive to live there. It's very difficult to have a business there. The government is is is is really cruel to businesses, right, very unfriendly. Um, but I will say that a lot of people that I know who have moved to texas and florida have come back yeah, no or have talked about coming back or have realized, oh, crap, there's no silver bullet.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, or they realize okay, yeah, I was paying 30%, 40% more to live in California, but, oh my God, it was worth it. Yeah, because if you've ever been in Texas, it's pretty magical at times, but for eight months out of the year it's pretty magical at times, but for, you know, eight months out of the year it's an inferno, unbearable, unbearable. And you're basically inside in air conditioning, you know, sort of, you know, cowering from life. So there, that's the other side of this, this California, you know portrait of horror.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's that magical place really yeah, yeah, um, and it's really.
Speaker 3it's really the only state. I've explored other states, my wife and children and I we've traveled and you know it's been really fun to open our minds to what it would be like to like live in a place like Texas or Colorado or whatever. We love those states, we have friends and family there, but California is the only one for us, and so what? Has living in England confirmed that for you.
Speaker 1What's your experience of England, looking at little old us here, yeah, versus this magical place that you know we recognize exists and is calling you back?
Speaker 3yeah, what's it?
Speaker 1been like here the last three years, is it?
Speaker 3yeah, on, on and off. Yeah, three years, um, I mean it's been amazing, it's been a totally amazing experience. And going back to your parenting, your question of doing that like that, you know it's been an amazing experience for the kids. Yeah, you know, to have that experience of a different way of of living, even though, I mean, we're similar in a lot of ways but there's some fundamental differences um, I think you know, I was born here and a family and I've always visited, so it's not unfamiliar to me.
Speaker 3But living for a sustained period here definitely shows you, um, how connected I think people are with each other. There's more awareness of other people, I think. Right, this you can kind of take it for granted, but you're on this little island, you're in it together, whether you like it or not, and America is fundamentally a place for individualism, right? Yes, every man for himself, you know it very much, still has that Wild West. You know pioneer mentality and you see it in the way people just relate to each other in public spaces or on the road, um, subtle things, and you really notice the difference here queuing, queuing, yes, queuing and like or being on a train, a packed train, and, but it's queuing and like, or being on a train, a packed train, and but it's, there's a quiet, there's a calm, because you know, like you put a bunch of americans in a packed train and you're gonna have so many viral videos going on, you know, but people are get out of my space. You know, excuse me, you know, it's just, it would just turn into a feral atmosphere very quickly.
Speaker 3And it's not that it doesn't happen here, but I've been in those situations where I've been so impressed by the generosity of space and freedom with each other. Yeah, so that's something that I've taken a lot from this experience, apart from, obviously, the culture and the history and the education. Something that I've I've taken a lot from this experience from, you know, apart from, obviously, the culture and the history and the education, the, you know, the deeper appreciation for language and things like that. That's all I. I knew I was walking into that, but it's this other thing, the way energetically people are with each other here, that I've really yeah, appreciated, and, and you've got that english in you, haven't you?
The Future of Art and Technology
Speaker 1so that, um, I guess, helps you recognize it in some ways. And what's next for you then? What's the next craft or the next arm of the renaissance man?
Speaker 3oh, um, the next thing is I'm designing, um, like a series of furniture, a custom of new, new, new furniture that I'm I'm building for kind of a, an exhibition that I'm going to do in the fall, um and the the. The theme is sort of man's interference with nature. So it's going to be kind of working with more sculptural wood pieces and turning them into functional furniture, but trying to find exactly that point that the interference is necessary to make it functional, but not really going beyond that, this idea that nature needs man to interfere to bring order or function into into itself, um, but also that if you go too far, then you know you've sort of killed the nature and it sort of loses its soulfulness yeah so it'll be kind of exploring that theme nice.
Speaker 1Yeah, look forward to that. Yeah, um, and, as know, I have a traditional closing question which I ask every guest, which is something I call the long bet, where you have a 10-year view to make a prediction. Predictions are just tax-free entertainment. A lot of people build careers around them, and they shouldn't, but for us it's just a bit of fun. Why 10 years? Because it's just a bit of fun, yeah, um, why 10 years? Because it's it's a meaningful time frame, I think. Um, for something that you'd like to happen or something that you think would happen. Um, and if it's something you'd like to happen, obviously please avoid answers such as world peace or people being kind to each other or queuing better or behaving better in the in the train. Um, yeah, do you have anything that you feel strongly about that you'd think will happen in 10 years time, over 10 years?
Speaker 3well, I going back to the ai ai, thing, yes, I think there's very exciting and you know, new um forms of art in, especially in film and in music, and I'm really excited to see what that is, cause I think it'll be unexpected and we don't even have the language or to to even imagine what what that's going to be and I I'm really excited about that.
Speaker 1I'm excited to see what what that is, you know I mean I think I think I'm in exactly the same shoes as you on that. The fear for people is they don't know what it looks like. Yeah, and that for people is very jarring and I sympathize with that. But the possibilities are so powerful, even with mundane things like government services, health care. Yeah, you know, buying or selling a house, can we please just fix that so that it's not such a stressful thing Once you get to a doctor, it's great. But the whole navigating the system can be just cleaned up. And then the artistic side is obviously. You know, we'll have to really build on the inheritance of the Hendrixes and the Rachmaninoffs or whoever it is.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Rather than just rinse repeat, Because rinse repeat, as we've talked about, is done. It will be done in a click of a button right right and therefore the world is our oyster. So, yeah, I hope, I hope I can see only positive things, unless it's 10 years time.
Speaker 3It is, you know, john connor, and I mean that be, it'll be exciting yeah. I've literally seen this movie before I know there is a terrible feeling that we're just inevitably going to go down the path of all the the sci-fi film narratives we've all been raised on Right yeah.
Speaker 3Like were there? Do you think they were? There was some sort of intuitive premonition in them, or do you think that they're created and then people kind of are just gonna fumble in that direction because that's what they know and that what the images in their head.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's like a self-fulfilling yes it, yeah, yeah, this reflexivity, yeah God. There's a story I can't remember which one it is where the AI just sort of flies away, looks at us and goes yeah, yeah, that's all right, you carry on.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And that could be a eventuality.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 1This is. It was beneath us.
Speaker 3And we're back to that. Oh okay.
Speaker 1Right, right, spinny thoughts and we're back to that. Oh okay, right, right back to, you know, picking nits out of each other yeah, it's like put me back in the box. Yeah that's one. Um, there's a book by em forster called when the machine stops, which is really interesting it's written in 1910 really and it's about this mythical world of where everyone lives underground and just sort of listens to records. It's a bit like WALL-E. Have you seen WALL-E?
Speaker 3No.
Speaker 1Anyway, wall-e, your kids will love it. It's great. Okay, it's about again set in the future, where everyone's overweight, living in capsules and everything's done for you. Right, right, a bit like the Matrix. You're kind of sat, you're in this, you're in this environment, sterile environment, yeah, and used as a, as a, as a battery, yeah, exactly, and uh. And then there's a spoiler alert. It's a short story, so I'm not.
Speaker 1You know, there's lots of insights for people still read it. But at the end the machine stops and you're told that you can't, the air doesn't work. And there's this one guy who's like you know, a bit like your father, maybe didn't like to be told the air doesn't work. He pokes his head out above and you can breathe, right, it's fine, right. And then I think it's innate in us, this fear of technology. It goes back a long way. Yeah, there's a story of Claudius Roman emperor. This fear of technology, it goes back a long way. There's a story of Claudius Roman emperor who, an inventor, came up to the court and said I've developed armor which is unbreakable.
Speaker 1I think historians think he chanced upon some sort of kind of titanium alloy or something by accident and was really excited because he thought this is me made, I'm done, I'm going to enrich his wealth a lot and Claudius goes. Have you told anyone else about this? No, it's just you, emperor, killed him, buried him with the tech because he was too scared about the consequences.
Speaker 1And you know, steam power was discovered by the Macedonians in Alexandria, but they were used for gimmicks. There was too much fear, particularly amongst these hyper ordered societies, particularly the romans were up. What would the, what would the common folk do? They would rise up. If they didn't have any. They didn't have drudge. All well, of course.
Speaker 1Smothered by drudgery is a phrase that really stuck with me, yeah when you're not smothered by drudgery, all of a sudden the work's taken. Yeah, when you're not smothered by drudgery, all of a sudden the work's taken away from you. You go hang on.
Speaker 3Well, this isn't technology but also a very powerful piece of information. But that was why the Bible was kept out of so many. Yeah, it was kept out of the masses' hands. It was like the Desert Fathers were like this information to the untrained mind, it's going to corrupt them and it's going to give them all sorts of fucked up ideas. And sure they're not wrong about that. I mean, religion is in that, the wrong in like untrained hands. Look what that's done.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know well, it's an interesting question because you asked an observer in the kind of 150 years after the printing press was invented. Yeah, was that a good invention? Yeah, probably not.
Speaker 3Like on a cost benefit, like hundreds of millions of people have died because of information here. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, died because of information. Information here, yeah, yeah, if you took a purely rational, scientific approach, which is never not has its place, but isn't, you know, in a human context, not always the right way to look at things yeah from a rational perspective, it was not a good invention.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, and that was why the Catholic Church was so keen on avoiding services being in the vernacular in the local language. We'll look after that for you. We'll decide what your relationship with God is, right, right, leave that with that. Where they're kind of and I feel like that mindset is, rep is has not gone away. It's just been replaced by whether it's government or it's um, and by government, I mean, you know, for example, financial regulators who, like you know, you know they will decide. You'll have some very select gatekeepers who will manage your affairs for you, because the risk to you is too great and I worry maybe that AI will. It's just too scary and therefore it won't be allowed to kind of, let alone solve easy problems or easier problems in things like access to health care or smoother, smoother bureaucracy we just can't resist, though we can't, that's the thing.
Speaker 3Like it's like oppenheimer, you know we can, we just can't resist. Like human nature just wants to go and poke every boundary as far as it can go.
Speaker 1And that push pull tension between the order and the chaos.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1We can't put the genie back in the bottle.
Speaker 3No.
Speaker 1So, yeah, I think, let's see. Yeah, let's see. So this has been a lot of fun. Thank you very much for sparing the time. I think it's only fitting that we are seen out by St Petersburg Knights, which is now coming over my voice, but we'd love to have you back on again soon, and it's been an absolute blast. Thanks for sharing. Where can people find you?
Speaker 3Oh, look up, Loverman.
Speaker 1Loverman, loverman.
Speaker 3Loverman, one word on Spotify Is that you?
St. Petersburg Night With Sasha Papadin
Speaker 1Yeah, that's the Loverman, spotify, yeah, and, or iTunes or whatever, itunes, spotify, and I will also point people to the direction of the third show. If there's anything you want to talk about the third show, if there's. If there's, oh yeah, in the show notes and you've all seen that exhibition. Thanks, tom, thank you Sasha, thank you take my hand.
Speaker 2I'm your man. You're off the reservation, baby, do you feel free? It's gonna be a St Petersburg night, you and I, in the never-ending light. It's gonna be a St Petersburg night, you and I, you and I, you and I, you and I, listening to my dire stress, hoping that true love waits. I'll see you on the other side. Thank you for the rideed by the KGB sugar, but they don't know where we are, just lost in the haze Of a lover's gaze.
Speaker 2It's gonna be A St Petersburg night, you and I, in the never-ending light. It's gonna be a St Petersburg night, you and I, you and I, you and I. Follow by the KGBed by the KGB baby, followed by a lone black collar, followed by the KGB sugar, but they don't know where we are. Just followed by the KGB baby, we were followed by a lone black collar, followed by the KGB sugar. We'll see you next time. It's gonna be a St Petersburg night, you and I, in the never-ending night. It's gonna be a St Petersburg night, you and I, you and I, you and I. It's gonna be a St Petersburg night, you and I and the never-ending life. It's gonna be a St Petersburg night, you and I, you and I, you and I.