Made for Mothers
21. Navigating Adversity with Jennifer Mack: The Healing Journey of the Oldest Daughter
Jennifer is a powerhouse realtor in Northern Virginia, an army wife, and a mom of two. But what really makes her stand out is her incredible resilience and the brave path of healing that has shaped her success and ability to inspire others today.
Jennifer and I crossed paths at a retreat where we were both speakers and let me tell you, it was like an instant connection... I literally cried listening to her share her story! Today's episode is going to be a bit different—we're diving deep into Jennifer's upbringing in a military family and how it shaped her into who she is today.
In our chat, Jennifer opened up about the pressures she faced as the oldest daughter, shouldering adult responsibilities from a young age. From navigating multiple moves during high school to dealing with personal loss and even a miscarriage, she shares her journey to therapy and self-discovery. It's a raw and honest conversation that I know will resonate with so many of you out there.
And trust me, you don't want to miss Jennifer's 'list'—it's a game-changer! So if you're grappling with challenges in your family or career - or you're just trying to find your balance, this episode is for you. Jennifer's story will inspire you to embrace making small changes in creating a balanced life.
Connect with Jennifer on Facebook and Instagram
Learn more about working with Jennifer by visiting her website
Email Jennifer at jennifer@jmpsells.com or contact her at 202-590-5570
Connect with me on Instagram
Learn more about booking a Biz Therapy session and working together by visiting my website
Jennifer is a powerhouse realtor in Northern Virginia, an army wife, and a mom of two. But what really makes her stand out is her incredible resilience and the brave path of healing that has shaped her success and ability to inspire others today.
Jennifer and I crossed paths at a retreat where we were both speakers and let me tell you, it was like an instant connection... I literally cried listening to her share her story! Today's episode is going to be a bit different—we're diving deep into Jennifer's upbringing in a military family and how it shaped her into who she is today.
In our chat, Jennifer opened up about the pressures she faced as the oldest daughter, shouldering adult responsibilities from a young age. From navigating multiple moves during high school to dealing with personal loss and even a miscarriage, she shares her journey to therapy and self-discovery. It's a raw and honest conversation that I know will resonate with so many of you out there.
And trust me, you don't want to miss Jennifer's 'list'—it's a game-changer! So if you're grappling with challenges in your family or career - or you're just trying to find your balance, this episode is for you. Jennifer's story will inspire you to embrace making small changes in creating a balanced life.
Connect with Jennifer on Facebook and Instagram
Learn more about working with Jennifer by visiting her website
Email Jennifer at jennifer@jmpsells.com or contact her at 202-590-5570
Connect with me on Instagram
Learn more about booking a Biz Therapy session and working together by visiting my website
My name is Jennifer Mack and I am a real estate agent in Northern Virginia. I've got a small team of all women and one brave man and I've been in real estate for 20 years. Before that I worked in high-tech operations for software companies. I am an Army brat and then my husband actually joined the Army, so I have a lot of military experience. And then about 13, 14 years ago settled back here in Northern Virginia and we live in Fairfax and I've got two kiddos and a dog and a husband and juggling all the things.
Speaker 2:Hello and welcome to the Made for Mothers podcast, your one-stop shop for candid and relatable conversations about motherhood and entrepreneurship. Think of the show as your new mom friend, where we dive into all things marketing, branding, mindset, money, child care and growing your business while we all navigate our roles as both CEO and mom. I'm your host, mariah Stockman, and I wear a bunch of hats I'm a boy mama, I'm serving as a marketing mentor for mothers, I'm running a six-figure marketing agency and, on top of that, I'm the proud founder of the Made for Mothers community. This show is about sharing the real stories and the practical strategies from fellow mother-run businesses. So dive in, grab your headphones, reheat that coffee and let's go.
Speaker 2:Hello, hello, hello and welcome to another episode of the Made for Mothers podcast. I am your host, mariah Stockman, boy mom, marketing mentor, founder of the Made for Mothers podcast. I am your host, mariah Stockman, boy mom, marketing mentor, founder of the Made for Mothers universe, and I'm so excited that I have Jennifer Mack on the podcast today. Hi, jennifer, hello, good morning Mariah. Good morning. I'm so happy you're here.
Speaker 2:I have, like, so many fun things I want to dive in with you today, but I wanted just to share a little bit about how we met. Is that okay? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. So we a couple of weeks ago which you know, in podcast land won't make any sense because this podcast will come out like in months but we went to this retreat in Virginia Beach and Jennifer and I were both speakers at this retreat. It was like a women's real estate wellness retreat. It was in this big house 40 women sort of my introverted, extrovert, worst nightmare, but also the best thing ever, right, I mean it was such a Wouldn't you say, it was just such a wonderful mix of women. Yeah, it was so fun, I loved it.
Speaker 2:It was so fun and it was interesting because I'm not a realtor and I was in this house the realtors and there's only like two or three non-realtors there and I saw Jennifer's name on the speaking like agenda and I knew of your career, right. So I knew you were Jennifer Mack, I knew you had a big real estate team, like. I knew you're successful in real estate, heavy hitter, all that blah, blah, blah. So I was thinking your session was going to be very like real estate technical training for this room of 40 realtors, right? Oh, my gosh, was I like so taken aback, like I can't even begin to tell the people who are listening. You had the room like in tears.
Speaker 2:Like tears because you tapped into the most emotional, beautiful journey of your story of your life, of your lessons, of your motherhood, of your mom's motherhood, of your dad's fatherhood, of what you've learned as a person, and so this episode today is kind of different. It's usually a very like what's your business? What do you do? Tell me about motherhood, how did that transform you? What tips do you have for moms? This is a little different. I actually just wanted to create time and space to record this story of yours and it's going to end with some practical tips that are really beautiful and really, really, really relatable. It's what Jennifer calls her list and I don't know. Like Jennifer, I feel like we kind of like, we're like like little magnets to each other. Like after your, after your talk, I was like I need to talk to you, I need to know you. Like I, don't know.
Speaker 1:I was just glad you came to the to my talk, cause I was like, oh, she might skip this. And I was glad that you were there Cause I wanted to get your feedback, because I'm not a realtor.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm going to go get a massage now. No, I'm just kidding, put a lock on the beach, yeah, so, yeah, so that's kind of just like you know shout out to Keisha and Melissa who organized that experience for us. But I'm just, I'm so happy you're here and I just kind of want you to take us through like who you are and your journey and kind of why you care about sharing the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I care about sharing the story because I have seen the benefit of what a lot of hard work and exploration and, you know, therapy and just self-discovery can do for your life in terms of really improving it and, as I've seen that result, I want to share that with people because I think that we're all born into various environments and we all have certain biases and prejudices against certain things and we're all raised in such different ways and that doesn't have to be our whole story for our entire life. We can affect change and not become a different person, but become a different version of ourselves, and that's okay and we owe it to ourselves to do that. And it's really hard work, it's very time intensive, it's so emotional, but I think that most everybody can benefit from that and I don't want people to feel shameful or stigmatized about going on that journey and doing that for themselves. It's the best gift that you can give yourself, so that's why I love to share about it and hopefully inspire people to do some of that themselves.
Speaker 2:I love that. It's just taking whatever circumstances you were born into. And you know, something you and I talked about is you used to think like your hard wasn't hard enough to share, right? Yes?
Speaker 2:That was huge for me.
Speaker 2:So I love that because I remember you shared something like oh, but someone near you had it so much harder so you never wanted to talk about.
Speaker 2:Well, what about some of the things I experienced in my life, you know, growing up as an army brat and moving and changing and transitioning and not having a strong sense of, you know, identity in a physical place, and then growing up too fast, which is all part of your story, which we'll hear.
Speaker 2:But I love that. The permission to all moms, all women I'm sure there might be a dad or so listening to this but all moms and women, that your heart isn't measured up against someone else's and I feel like that's a little bit of what I took away from yours was how I really need to be when someone tells me they grew up, you know, quote-unquote an army brat. If I ever hear anyone in my circle ever tell me that again, like I feel, like the ripple of change you helped me experience from your talk was, oh, I am going to ask them and like be engaged in that part of them so much more. Because, because I now feel like, after listening to you, you took me on this journey of what that was really really like, and it's weird because you don't really hear that anywhere. So I'll let you take it away, tell your story.
Speaker 1:I might jump in. So, gosh, where do I start? So my parents are both from Nebraska super, you know, hardworking families. I have a lot of relatives that are farmers and that are still farmers and so kind of came from that Midwestern, you know work ethic. And then my dad joined after college, joined the army, and he and my mom met in college, got married shortly after that and they kind of started their life of moving all over the place, as the Army will do for you, and I was the first born. So they had been married I think for five years before they had me and I was the first born, so first daughter, and they then had my brother and my sister. So there's three years between my brother and me and then five years between my sister and myself. My dad was gone a lot. That's normal for a lot of people in the military. He was a tanker and so he would have a job where like 28 out of the 30 days of the month he was gone.
Speaker 1:So, he would be out in the field is what you call it doing training and whatever you know he needed to do Overnight, like gone overnight, oh yeah, okay, okay, overnight.
Speaker 1:So then he would come back for like two or three days and I was like, oh, dad, you know, we were so excited to see him and would spend time with him, and then he would go back and I was just kind of used to that and it wasn't always like that. It would depend on what job he had. And then, of course, during Desert Storm he was deployed. So he was gone for an entire year. That year, I think, he called home twice that year. It's not like that anymore now that a lot of the troops can call almost daily, but back then it wasn't like that. So it was really tough for my mom because, you know, three kids, he was gone all the time. She was a school teacher a lot of the time because, you know, you don't make a ton of money in the military and with three kids there were a lot of expenses and so she would teach and so I grew up I kind of refer to myself as like my mom's wife. So my mom needed someone to help her because she couldn't do it all right, and so I sort of became that person and I think there might be people listening who have, you know, single moms. You know, growing up. Maybe they served that role as well, right, because it was a similar type environment, even though my mom was very much married and is still married over 50 years now.
Speaker 1:So I was my mom's wife assistant, you know, helper, however you want to call it and so from a very, very young age they figured out what they could expect of me and asked me to fulfill that. So there wasn't a lot of I don't think there was a lot of thought about is this an appropriate level of expectations that we have for our daughter? I think it was more. Just hey, she can do it, she's rising to the occasion, let's give her more. And of course I liked the praise that came from that and the attention that came from that, like any child would, and so I think in their mind they didn't really question whether it was too much for me, you know.
Speaker 1:So I tell the story when I was in middle school, my mom would drop me off at the commissary, which is like the military grocery store, with a blank check, and I would go in and I would do the grocery shopping for the entire month, like I would spend like six, seven hundred dollars. I would never ask my middle schooler to do that. That's just not something that I would ever ask them to do. So they would have parties. I would orchestrate all of them. I would be up cleaning till two, three in the morning, and it was never anything at all abusive or illegal or anything like that.
Speaker 1:It was just let's see how much she can do, and I did it right.
Speaker 2:And a sign of the times too. I and a sign of the times too. I mean it just military, I mean just sign of the times, for sure too. I mean yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you know we moved around a lot and so I had to constantly kind of start over. We lived in Germany for five years. I was the only American in the German school because we always lived off post, so I learned how to speak German fluently when I was like four years old and I would go to one preschool in the morning and another preschool in the afternoon because my mom was just trying to keep me busy and you know I would go down to the German little corner store and get the groceries for my parents and everything. And you know it was a lot, though it was a lot as a child.
Speaker 2:And I heard you say, when you shared the story, that you were the translator.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was the translator. My parents did not speak German and still do not to this day, which is crazy if you think about like I mean, you're four, Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're translating for your parents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was there. So we moved back to the States for second grade, so I was there through first grade, so five years through first grade, and people thought it was great, though, right, like the Germans loved me, they just thought it was so cool that this little American girl could speak German fluently. It would give me all sorts of candy and treats and you know. So, like I said, I learned to kind of relish that praise from a very young age that I would get. I mean, I remember there was two women in my dad's unit that named their daughters Jennifer after me, right, because it was like, oh my God, look at this girl, she does everything I want my daughter to be like her. Funny. And at the time I was like, oh, this is cool. And now I look back and I'm like it was a little bit much.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is cool. Well, and now I look back and I'm like it was a little bit much, A little inappropriate yeah.
Speaker 1:A little much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a lot. So then we moved to, you know, moved back. We were in Fort Leavenworth for two years. We went to Fort Hood and that was probably the happiest time of my childhood, when we were in Fort Hood, because we got to be there for five years. Oh, wow. So there, from fourth grade to eighth grade, and that was like, oh my gosh, five years in one place, yeah, amazing.
Speaker 2:The same years too, like important years, like like friendship making years and very informative years, yeah.
Speaker 1:A hundred percent, yeah, so I got to be there for like the last two years of elementary, all of middle school, and I made this really nice little group of friends. There was like five or six of us and that was when my dad deployed to Desert Storm. So it was still a lot in terms of what I was helping my mom with, but it was just a fun memory that I have for those five years of being with them. And one of the stories that I always tell is when we were moving from Texas, we were moving up here to DC and my mom was gone and I was at the house and the Packers were there the Army Packers were there getting the house all packed up that a cousin of mine had died and he was in his late 20s. He wasn't in great health but certainly we did not think that he was going to pass away. And we got the call and I was very upset and I went out front to wait for my mom to come back from the post office because, of course, no cell phones then. So she comes back from the post office and she pulled the car up, saw the look on my face and she knew something horrible had happened and I told her that Artie had died and she just kind of froze and then went into this okay, I have to get out of here. I have to get to my sister to support her. Her son has died up in Alabama. You know, go to Alabama. And she said you're going to come with me because I was her assistant. Right, I was her helper, she needed me to go with her. The two little ones could stay.
Speaker 1:And within my memory is that within an hour we were packed in that car, I grabbed my stuff and we were driving up to Alabama to support my aunt and be good to them and be good to them. And I didn't realize it until years later, through therapy. That you know not getting to say goodbye to my group of friends. Of course we had had a party planned, probably a sleepover, we were all going to get together, and not being able to say goodbye to my friends, I did not realize the impact that that had had on me until much later in my life of not getting closure, of not having any finality to that phase of my life. It was so big for me to have those tight friends for that long and I knew I was going into an environment at a high school with 4,000 kids where I wasn't going to know anybody and I was scared to death. Environment at a high school with 4,000 kids where I wasn't going to know anybody and I was scared to death.
Speaker 1:But that's kind of how we rolled as a family. You didn't complain, you just went with it. Right, we're lucky that we're healthy, we have each other, we have enough money. No complaining, get in the car, let's go. And I don't remember complaining. I don't think I did. I don't know that I said to my mom I want to say goodbye to my friends. I don't think that I said that. You know, yeah, wow. Now, looking back, I wish that as a parent, it had occurred to her right, sure, to say let's make a stop on the way out of town. And we didn't.
Speaker 2:I think it was just that she felt that much urgency to get away that I kind of felt like my feelings were not taken, and just how many trauma responses are happening all at once, right Of her, having this huge experience around her sister, around her nephew, right, and that loss, the loss of someone who's you know you're not supposed to die when you're 20. Like that's just not supposed to happen. Something I heard you say, though, if it's okay, if we back up, so am I clear that you took the phone calls and it said that Artie had died?
Speaker 1:So were you the one who answered.
Speaker 2:You're the one who answered the phone. Wow, that's my memory.
Speaker 1:So were you the one who answered? You're the one who answered the phone. Wow, that's my memory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that wouldn't have been there you know, yeah, that in itself is also very heavy. Like thinking through of what that was, like you holding on to that big news and I guess also you know not the time of cell phones and that's how news happened it came over the phone, right, but landline Just thinking like you're the messenger of that heavy experience as well, and then an hour later, like you're holding that experience and then your own experience and her experience, and now you're moving and wow, thank goodness for therapy?
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, for sure, because I think when you're in the moment, I didn't realize how big any of it was. You know and I operate my life that way up until fairly recently actually is, just what do I need to do next? What do I need to do next? And it's literally just going from one thing to the next, tackling it, doing a great job, and then just you know, oh my gosh, you just want to die. You know, and I think for me it was a combination of both being the army brat and then also that first oldest thing, you know, right, oldest daughter. You know, and I hear I've heard feedback from women who were not army brats but oldest daughters, and it's a similar type of of pressure that we feel.
Speaker 1:There's a song in the movie Moana called Surface Pressure and if you've never listened to it, you got to listen to it and call up the lyrics, because when I heard that song for the first time, it was literally like I was hit with a ton of bricks. I was scared, for like 20 minutes after I heard that song and I have it printed out and some of the lyrics that will just grab you under the surface I'm pretty sure I'm worthless if I can't be of service. Wow, give it to your sister, your sister's older. Give her all the heavy things we can't shoulder. But wait, if I could shake the crushing weight of expectations, would that free some room up for joy or relaxation or simple pleasure? Instead, we measure this growing pressure. And then the last one, give it to your sister, it doesn't hurt, and see if she can handle every family burden. Watch as she buckles and bends, but never breaks no mistakes.
Speaker 2:Watch as she buckles and bends, but never breaks.
Speaker 1:No mistakes, whoa Disney Jeez. I mean seriously.
Speaker 2:Heavy. I have like goosebumps right now. I mean that's like so heavy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this song is. And the way I found out about this is because I don't watch Disney movies. I don't watch movies. I read an article and I want to say it was in, like the New Yorker, or like some very, you know, prestigious print prestigious publication and they referenced the song and they were talking about oldest daughter syndrome, I think is what they called it. So it's definitely something for you know people listening to be aware of if and and see you know whether you know what.
Speaker 2:what can you do to to explore that more and not just have it be like fierce self-independence, you know like this being very independent at a young age, being driven by praise and accomplishment, being very success, being very task oriented, but also being in a military family. My dad is Vietnam. He was in the army, he was military but well removed once I before I was born. He was military but well removed once I before I was born. So I did not grow up that way but I see in him that sort of military complex of the way he operates and shows up in the world which is very linear and very task focused. But it's interesting to think about how all of this translated and took you through your career into what you do now, which is in real estate, which is having people find, you know sort of these child like forever homes, like like permanence, like you know sort of stability.
Speaker 1:you know it's interesting. I never thought about that my entire life. Well, it's so interesting because here you are like move, like moving from home to home to home.
Speaker 2:Right now you're right from city, city, and now you're like, okay, actually I've put my flag in the sand and I am here to help you find permanent home. You know, four walls that don't move. You know, and, and so it's like a, like a funny little.
Speaker 2:That's true. There's all this work in social. I have a background and my my degree is in social work, which is random because then I own a marketing agency. But there's this whole theory in social work around making sure you're not building your career from a wound. You know so. If you say you were abused as a child, you wouldn't want to go into your social work without healing that wound, because you can't heal yourself through other people's wounds, right. So making sure that you're doing it from a place of healing and a place of service instead of that place of your own stuff. So I'm just I'm so curious about how you got into this place of working and helping families, you know, in this way, and do you help a lot of military families? I'm just curious, do you work? Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:I mean here in the DC area we do, and my husband was in the Arnie up until a year ago, so you know we have so many friends that are military and coming and going. So, yeah, a large portion of my business is military for sure. And have you ever shared?
Speaker 2:like these pieces of your story with clients or with your industry, or is this a newer? Is this newer for you to start sharing a little bit about, because then we're going to talk about the list in a little bit, which is great but is this a newer part of you that you're opening up and exploring in a more public way?
Speaker 1:Definitely. I mean, I've taught classes and spoken to audiences for years, but it was always, you know, like what you thought the talk was going to be at the retreat right, Like a more technical lead generation.
Speaker 1:Here's how to expand your real estate team. But when I presented the list and I think it's been like a year and a half ago at this point, I had never gotten so much feedback from a presentation, like hands down, you know and I was like, okay, you know. I mean, you need to pay attention. When you get a reaction like that, you have to pay attention to that and go what void was this? Is this filling? What conversations are not being had that need to be had? Why are people reacting like this? Why am I getting emails and messages and people coming up to me in the hallway?
Speaker 1:And even now, over a year later, people will say to me what an impact the presentation had, which, by the way, it was like 10 minutes, and so it just made me realize that there was a need that maybe I could help fill. And I'll let somebody else talk about all that tactical stuff, because there's so many Real estate. We could go to education event literally every single day and there's not a lot of conversation about these items that are especially applicable to women and to moms especially.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I can't wait for you to share that in just a second, but I want to just wrap up your story a little bit. So you moved to DC and at some point in your, at some point in your life, at what point, what happened between you moving to DC and high school and all of that right To okay, now you've grown and you've 20s, 30s, right, at what point were you becoming more and more aware of these parts of you maybe that you needed to explore? Was it like overworking? Was it, I mean, you also married a military man, I mean, if that's not like a generational pattern, maybe, but something, I mean there was something very comfortable, right, probably, in him, right, that you grew up with.
Speaker 2:But at what point were you sort of just operating from this autopilot of, I'm guessing, overwork, overcommitting, success-driven and there's nothing wrong with being success, driven like, driven like. I think sometimes the concept of like being a workaholic or being really driven or ambitious can kind of have like a. There's been this whole sort of tidal wave of new thinking around business. Like you know, if you overwork, that's bad, but I think that that being ambitious, I think being ambitious is a really beautiful thing, and not everyone is ambitious. I think it being ambitious. I think being ambitious is a really beautiful thing and not everyone is ambitious. I think it's how you take care of yourself within your ambition that really sets you apart and allows you to be successful. However, I'm just curious like, what did life look like for you pre-therapy sort of close to therapy? What was happening where you were like okay, I need to start. This doesn't feel good things, this is not working.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so high school. You know, we moved back here and I ended up going to three high schools in four years. Oh my gosh, yeah. So I went to a very large Fairfax County High School. My freshman year, my sophomore year, my dad got stationed out in Fort Irwin, california, which is in the middle of the Mojave Desert. People hear California and they're like I can't believe you didn't want to go to California. I'm like no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2:I'm from California and I would never want to go to the Mojave Desert.
Speaker 1:So Barstow was like the big town.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, no way.
Speaker 1:Fort Irwin is a completely isolated military base. You had to go to Yermo to get to the high school. It was not accredited. And I remember saying to my mom mom, I just finished up my freshman year in Fairfax County taking all GT classes. You're going to send me to a high school that's not accredited and I'm going to have to go an hour on the bus to get there. That's crazy. And she goes oh, my God, you're right, what should I do? And I was like I don't know, call grandma. So she called her mom and Mimi said let me think I'll call you back. And Mimi called back and she said send Jennifer to Birmingham. And I went to live with my aunt, my aunt whose son had passed away. She said go send Jennifer to Birmingham. Marilee, my cousin Artie's sister goes to a great private school. She can go there. You be in California, it'll be great.
Speaker 1:So my sophomore year I went and lived with my aunt and uncle and went to private school. It was great. We got in. Well, I was going to say we got in trouble, we didn't get caught a lot, but we were not. I mean, we had a lot of fun. Yeah, my cousin and I, and then my mom was like, okay, this is crazy, I miss Jennifer. We got to get back together. So then my mom moved back to DC, moved me back with her and my brother and sister. My dad stayed in California. This was all so normal and when I say it I'm like that's kind of weird, right, but to me it was normal. So we moved back and I went to Lake Braddock my junior year and then, thankfully, stayed there my senior year.
Speaker 1:So you know, three high schools in four years. I mean I have eaten lunch by myself on the bathroom stall many times. You know, it's always fun to have to ask people if you can sit with them at lunch. It's like there's no worse feeling as a teenager than to have to. You know, say that, to say that to somebody, I just made the best of it All AP classes. It was very, very difficult, studied a ton, always had a bunch of jobs and I've just always been very extreme with how I do things. Went to University of Texas at Austin. I went straight to guidance and I said what's the degree I can get to graduate the fastest? I want to be efficient about this. They said Spanish. You can graduate in three years. So I said great, graduated in three years, two years later had my MBA.
Speaker 1:Efficiency is something my mom taught me when I was little, like I said she would drop me off at the commissary while she went to the PX and then meet me in the car and then we'd get. You know it was all about how can I get the most amount of things done in the shortest amount of time. And to this day, I will get tasks done in a fraction of the amount of time of anybody else, and they're like how did you do that? Now I realize like it's not maybe a great thing. It's not a skill that I'm super proud of.
Speaker 1:To be honest with you, we miss a lot of the beauty in life and the conversations and the connections. Some of that can come from being a little bit inefficient and messy, and when you're always just one thing to the next, I think you can miss some of that, and so part of what I'm doing is trying to slow down a little bit and maybe I only get 15 things done in a day instead of 20. But was my day better? Did I connect with more people? Was it more enjoyable? Did I not feel my blood pressure was sky high through the entire day?
Speaker 1:Like those are wins versus like, how many things did I cross off of my list? But I just didn't. I did not operate that way for so long, you know, like you were asking me. So then I got married. We moved to a town that didn't have the high-tech software companies I was working at, and so I decided to get my real estate license and was you know? And so I decided to get my real estate license and was, you know, licensed assistant to the top producing agent in Fayetteville, north Carolina, and she was a big entrepreneurial spirit. Her father founded Putt-Putt Golf. I mean, she was like larger than life Donna Lloyd, and she's still a realtor in Fayetteville and she taught me everything. So for two years I worked with her. We sold over 100 houses. I me everything. So for two years I worked with her, we sold over 100 houses, I learned everything. She taught me how to be an excellent realtor in those two years and then you knew I had found what I loved and my career kind of went on from there. So after I worked with her for a couple of years, I finally got pregnant with my daughter.
Speaker 1:That was a whole other thing and again I just applied this rigidity, you know to that whole experience, my parents can be quite judgy about some things. They have a list of things they're super judgy about. One of them is and oh my gosh, please, I don't want anyone to take this as judgment, but it's like unmedicated births, right? That's one of their things. And so, you know, no drugs with either of my babies. I had the Pitocin, I had the 24-hour labor, thought I was going to die, but no drugs, right. Then had the babies 100% breastfed. Not one drop of formula for either one of my children.
Speaker 1:Two years of breastfeeding. The moms out there know how, like why did I do that to myself? Yeah, you know, I mean the nonstop pumping and not sleeping, and you know it was like I just never gave myself a break about anything. You know, I just wanted things a certain way and I think that it was, like I said, that extremeness. I don't think it really served me the best. And so I encourage people to give themselves grace. Do things your own way. Your parents may not know everything. I always tell a story. I remember when I was ready to stop. I thought I was ready to stop breastfeeding my daughter. She was like over a year and I was like, okay, we're going on a ski trip with friends. This is a perfect time. I'll kind of wean her because I'm going to be gone for three days and my phone rings and it's my dad's secretary at the Pentagon and she says hey, you know, jennifer, I've got your dad on the line, are you available?
Speaker 1:And I said yeah, so she patches my dad through and it's my dad calling to tell me that he doesn't think that Riley's ready to wean yet off of breast milk. How insane is that.
Speaker 2:Not a little. I mean it's. It's like there's a part of it that's really sweet, like that your dad's so involved in your feeding journey with your new baby but also, you know, a little overstepping right, and that's a whole other conversation for another day. But I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy having any Pitocin with the nomads. Your birth sounds like it was 24 hours. Let me just be clear my birth was two hours and in 45 minutes, which for any mom listening would know like what a hellish ride that is. I mean, that's like zero to 12 centimeters in two hours, which I wouldn't want anyone to experience, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I relate to that. Yeah, no, fast and furious. I always say, like you know the member of those commercials with the Kool-Aid man who's like bursting through the walls, that's when people ask about my birth, I'm like yeah, that's my birth. But also if you were to meet my son Henry, like he's actually the Kool-Aid man bursting through walls now. So it's kind of all tracks. Yeah, what did you tell your dad? That's like so funny to me. I don't know my dad would not. That's so, that's so not my life.
Speaker 1:I've never told that story to anybody who was like oh yeah, my dad would totally do that.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean I could see like your mom or like a nosy aunt or something like that, you know.
Speaker 1:but you know, um, I just said okay, I'll think about it. And then you know what I kept? I kept nursing for another like eight months.
Speaker 2:Oh, did you, but did you? I mean, you felt like you had to kind of fall in line with what he was saying, wow, Wow, so clearly things weren't working. You found some healing, you did the work, and where has that left you now?
Speaker 1:So I just you know, what I started to notice was I felt resentment towards my mom. I didn't feel it towards my dad at all. My dad walks on water for me. But I was like man, why do I feel this tightness in my stomach when I'm around my mom? Because she's awesome. My mom is the life of the party. She's so fun. She's the second mom to 10 of my friends Never met a stranger. I mean, she's awesome. She's this larger than life, the most fun, extroverted person you can ever imagine would do anything for me. I wouldn't be surprised if I looked out my window right now and my mom was walking up with a basket with a beautiful dinner in it for us to have tonight, because she knows that I have a busy day. That would not surprise me at all, right? So I was like God, why do I feel this way? Like what is going on?
Speaker 1:And that was when I started my going to therapy and just trying to understand. Like, what are these underlying feelings? And what happens in therapy is that you start uncovering what were those events in your life that were more impactful on you than you thought that they were. And that's my definition. I mean, of course, I'm not in any way a professional, but for me that's what it did.
Speaker 1:It was like what were those either micro moments or big moments in my life that were so much more impactful than I thought they were, and how did those affect me and how can I unpack those events to have a healthier attitude towards them? So one of them you know trigger warning. One of them was my miscarriage, which I just swept under the rug. I mean, I had that procedure and I was at work the next morning. I didn't talk to anybody about it. I never brought it up to anybody again and I just thought I'm strong. Thank God I have a kid already who's healthy and awesome, and you know who am I to complain that I lost a second baby right and you told your husband to leave.
Speaker 2:Remember the hospital.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my husband came for the DNC and I remember looking up at him and he had on his suit and tie because he was going back to work. I had told him he was billable contractor and I said got to make sure you got your hours in. So just take four hours off and then we'll drive separate. I don't know. I guess somebody must've driven me home. I don't remember it was so traumatic for me and that's a whole nother story about how all that went down, but I had just buried that you know I had buried that.
Speaker 1:I had buried how I felt about not being able to say goodbye to my friends and like three or four other things that I had buried. That all came out through two different stints in therapy. I did one and I thought I was done, and then a couple of years later I was like, oh, I thought I was done, and then a couple years later.
Speaker 2:I was like, oh, not done.
Speaker 1:And went back. There it is again. Yeah, yeah, I think I now just know my tendencies. I know my tendency towards perfection and being so unforgiving of myself and not giving myself a break and trying to be so overly competent and efficient. I always say that if I wrote a book, the title would be the Curse of Competency.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, that's probably already taken, but that would be the title of my book, because it truly is a curse when you're that competent. It's a curse, and there's good things about it also, but there's a lot of bad, sure, sure. So that's what I've had to work on, and it's still every single day. Every single day, it's hard for me to take those steps and make those decisions. To try to make things a little bit easier on myself.
Speaker 2:It sounds like making things maybe just a little bit softer for you.
Speaker 1:Softness is a huge theme in therapy for me because I had no softness.
Speaker 2:Yeah Hard edges all over. Just very strict lines. I'm almost thinking like you know military lining up, you know just strict lines.
Speaker 1:Yeah, softness is something that I admired in other women so much and I was like, oh my gosh, how do I get some of that? Yeah, but did you?
Speaker 2:ever think that they were weak. You know what I mean. Like if you ever like like old version, that, yeah, but did you ever think that they were weak? You know what I mean like if you ever like like old version, jennifer. If you ever saw, maybe, who was taking too much time off or turning down clients because they weren't a good fit, or prioritizing I don't know family stuff over yeah, I probably was judgmental about that I would say, because I think that that's normal.
Speaker 2:I think that's like a, a oh, they're not really going for it, or something like that.
Speaker 1:Right Like man, they really could pack a whole lot more into their day if they didn't make this decision or this decision. And now it's something that I just greatly admire in people, especially when they have that self-assuredness about it where they're completely at peace with their decisions, and that's what I am working towards every day. I'm not in a great profession to have that at all.
Speaker 2:I know Talk about no boundaries in real estate, but what does softness look like? Like? How would you describe softness to our listeners Like and I know we'll get to the list. I know listeners are dying to hear the list, but keep plugging the list. But what does like softness in action for you? Like a daily basis sort of look like?
Speaker 1:I think, slowing down and taking time for other people. So I remember talking to my therapist about the receptionist at my office and I don't remember how it came up, but basically it was like I was vulnerable with and I'm embarrassed to even say it now because I think it makes me look bad, but I would cringe walking into the office on a Monday morning because I knew that I should take the time to talk to our receptionist, ask her how her weekend was, just slow down and stand there for a minute and just be nice. And it was like, oh, do I have to do that? And it was nothing towards this lovely person, it was just it would have been anybody.
Speaker 2:No, it's no time for small talk. Like why small talk? Who cares?
Speaker 1:Small talk is really, really difficult for me, and I think that I have learned to become better at being able to have impromptu conversations with people, but trying to gear them so that it's not just this little weather or whatever, but like how can I quickly, you know, get to the meet with somebody and really get to know them and find out something we have in common, and so that I don't look at it as small talk but I'm able to connect with strangers, you know.
Speaker 1:I think that that's really important, that we do that, you know, just to be good humans you know and.
Speaker 1:I want to do that. I love people, you know, but I looked at it as this is an interruption in my day. This is one less thing I'm going to get finished. And also I mean my kids. I remember when that receptionist was at that office, I had my kids in a part-time co-op preschool right. They were there from 9.30 to 1.30. So it was like what is the earliest I can drop them off and what is the latest I can pick them up, and I was like out of there, like a bat out of hell to my office to get everything done that I could do, so that I could get back to get them, yeah, in four hours. Oh my gosh. Because in my family daycare is another thing that you know wasn't at the top of the you know the list for my parents.
Speaker 2:Well, like luxury, like why are you handing your kids off? Yeah, like you should be doing that, you should be able to raise your kids and do all the things. But also, you don't have a little sous chef like your mom had in you. You don't have a little party assistant what did you call it? You didn't have a wife in your children.
Speaker 1:Well, and I've worked very hard with my daughter. So my daughter is 16 now and she's extremely capable, and I stop myself on a daily basis from heaping too much on her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:You know, because I'm like what is? You know what's appropriate. So you know, I can ask her to throw a dinner together once a week, but I'm not going to ask her to throw dinner together three times a week. She's 16.
Speaker 2:She shouldn't have to do that, or go to the grocery store with $700 blank check yeah.
Speaker 1:No, exactly.
Speaker 2:So slowing down, appreciating people, finding deeper connection, giving yourself more grace I mean softness sounds like it comes out in various ways for you today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I think just taking time, taking time for people, is the big thing and being like I want to be a good friend, you know, and I think I am a good friend and I think that women at my level in our careers I talk, I meet a lot of women who simply don't have friends. Really, yeah yeah, the time that you have to invest in that relationship is something that not everyone chooses to prioritize, and I, and I really think it's to their detriment.
Speaker 2:Me too. I'm definitely someone who prioritizes friendship and it's based on sort of a necessity in my life of how I was raised and of needing to build my own village type concept, which is hilarious, because talk about like full circle of careers, how you're giving people houses and I'm building community and anyways. It's just a funny, funny way that that shows up. But I do think that there's especially for anyone who's a new mom, in that new mom stage, while you're running a business, it's so hard to carve that time for your people. But in the long run it's like I need something. I need something outside of work, I need something outside of my baby, I need something outside of my husband and I need, I need women, need other women. I get what you're saying around.
Speaker 2:Just when you are ambitious and you're career driven, it can be really hard. Also, it's hard too because sometimes the other type of women you meet might be in that same season. There's a lot of competition, there's a lot of like what can I get from you? And especially here in northern virginia it could be really dicey to navigate and so finding people who are really genuine and authentic is like gosh, like hold on to them like they're gold. So I love that, I like, love that. I like, love that. Yeah, totally honor that. Yeah, all right, I think it's time, jennifer. Okay, time for the list. Okay, so tell us how the list came about. Like, how did you, when did you put this list together?
Speaker 1:So when I was asked to speak on that panel that I mentioned when I started, kind of, you know, it was the first time that I talked about something that wasn't specifically real estate related. I was preparing for the panel, because I prepare right, and so I was the only one up there with my notes and I don't remember the question. The question was something about you know, how do you juggle it all? Or I don't remember. I need to go back and find what the question was. And when I was preparing, I just started like, well, how do I juggle it all? Let me really, because I always want to give people a lot of value, right, like, if they're coming to watch this presentation, let's make sure that they walk away with something valuable. So I'm like, how do I do that? So I started making this list and I put it in no order. It was so random and my intention was that it was just going to be some talking points. And then, when it got to my turn, I remember I was really hot. The lights were super bright. I was really hot and I was like, oh, I'm just going to read this damn thing. And I just read the entire thing and at the end of it. I look out and people were just like what just happened, like that was not what I expected, and then that was when I started getting all of the reaction from people. So, yeah, it started out very, very random and unscripted, unplanned, so let's hear it All right. So, again, totally random, and I'm starting. I'm starting a list, part two, so I'll throw in a couple of those things in at the end.
Speaker 1:Live and walking distance to your kid's school. Live and die by your calendar. Quit trying to do everything. Know your hourly rate and delegate tasks. Find a community-focused neighborhood and move to it. Do not waste your time on tv. Ask yourself each day would I want to come home to me? Quit expecting yourself to be perfect carpool, like your life depended on it. Your kids are capable of more than you think. Move to where your support system is. Host parties. It's good for business. Pick the right spouse or partner. It's the most important decision you will ever make in your life. Have an accountability partner. Go to therapy and figure your shit out. Go to bed early. Nothing good happens after 9 pm. A house cleaner twice a month is a must. Learn how to master meal kits, crockpots and easy meals. Have a date night at least once a month. Lift weights every day. Get your blood work done. Return phone calls. Send real mail to people who need it.
Speaker 2:I love it. And so this is like this was like sort of when you first created this. It was like you were geared towards realtors, right, I mean that kind of that overworked. I mean that is an overworked industry, would you agree? I mean it is a hard overworked industry.
Speaker 2:Yes, but anyone listening in any season of life could take one or two of those things. I mean the whole idea of living with your support system being able to, you know, walk to your kid's school to be able to turn yourself off after 9 PM, able to, you know, walk to your kid's school to be able to turn yourself off after 9 pm. No doom, you know, no, what they call like doom. Scrolling on you know, social media, the date nights with husbands I heard you talk at, you know at this retreat how you and your husband fly and do concerts and stuff, and my husband and I like that too, but I just love it all so much. Jennifer, if there is a newer mom or a mom who's newer in business listening and you could just give them one piece of advice, obviously that whole list is beautiful, but if you could just say one thing to them, that would be encouraging and cup-filling for them to step into their ambition, to step into their purpose. What would that be step into?
Speaker 1:their ambition, to step into their purpose. What would that be? If I had to say one thing, it would be to reach out for help. I think that our society now is so just we're programmed to not ask for help and you've created a beautiful community of people that and I've seen some of the things that you've done to really, you know, encourage that community and reaching out and asking for help with meals and things like that. But I just think that we don't. Number one, we don't know how to be helpful, I think. And number two, we don't know how to receive it.
Speaker 1:Somebody posted one time about, I think I can't remember that maybe their family member was going through cancer or something like that, and it was a post about how to be helpful. Maybe their family member was going through cancer or something like that, and it was a post about how to be helpful. And I wish I'd saved it because I was like, oh my gosh. And the most simple example that everyone thinks of is don't say let me know, if there's anything I can do to help, it's I'm making chili. Can I show up with that on Monday or Wednesday? What would be best for you?
Speaker 1:How can we truly reach out and be helpful to people. And then we have to be willing to say yes. And I have become so much better at saying yes and what I found is that people want to help. They may not know how to do it, it may be awkward for them, Like sometimes there's like a little you know dance you got to go through to really get on the same page with people. But people want to be helpful and we need to say yes to that, because this life is hard and, I'm sorry to say, it is only getting harder and we cannot do this alone. I don't think we yeah, we shouldn't be.
Speaker 2:I don't think that we were designed as people, as moms particularly. I don't think we were designed to operate on an island. Yet society has put us there in so many different ways, with career tracking, with how unaffordable childcare is. I mean, there is just so many systemic things going on in our world that creates moms to have to just like suit up and show up and do it on their own and get it done. And I don't want to be an inconvenience, and you know now, like I think post-pandemic, it's like, oh, my kid has the sniffles, I don't want to be around your kid. And you know, there's just so many things happening, narratives happening, and then it's like, okay, I have nap time, I have to work. Okay, my kid's asleep, I have to work. You know, because that's what newer motherhood and entrepreneurship looks like, and I just feel like if you could find people who are in the same season at all, it would be.
Speaker 2:It is life-giving. It is life-giving and I love what you share about asking and receiving help. It's such a like a muscle that we can be working and it's such a great reminder and I think it can go from everything from child care to meals, to hey, who's your CPA? To how did you figure this out in your business? And I don't think it's so much about like, hey, can I pick your brain.
Speaker 2:I think it's more about what are the resources and tools and can you be just like a walking talking directory to help people get to the solution faster, whether that be self-care, family care, business care, because everywhere we go, that's where we are and that's really what I took from what you're, what you shared today, and thank you so much for just sharing and being vulnerable and sharing some of those stories that maybe you've never shared publicly in this way. And if people want to connect with you, if they want to learn more about you, where can they find you? I'll link everything in the show notes as well, but there's something else I wanted to link in the show notes and I totally forget. Now. I was like, oh, I should link that in the show notes, but maybe I'll re-listen and I'll figure it out. But where can they find you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I can be emailed, jennifer, at jennifermacpropertiescom. My phone number, 202-590-5570. And Facebook is kind of where I live because I'm old. Jennifer Gunlick's Mac is my Facebook profile. We have a lot of great conversations that go on there on my posts. I do like your posts a lot that go on there on my posts. I do like your postal line. Yeah, so, jennifer Gunlick's Mac, and then Instagram, jmacproperties, but I'm not as active there. But I'm trying. Yeah, you're trying, you're working on it.
Speaker 2:It's good stuff. Well, thank you, jennifer. So much for your time today. I really just I appreciated it so much.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Made for Mothers podcast. Again, if you want to leave us a review, rate us, follow us, share us all the good things so we can continue to share the stories of moms who are doing wonderful things in the world while also running businesses, growing families all the things that would be wonderful, and everything will be connected to the show notes and we will talk to you soon. Yay, you just finished another episode to the show notes and we will talk to you soon. Wanting more one-on-one support? Or are you looking to learn how to market your business in a way so you can spend more time with your family and less time stressing about what to do next? Then follow along on Instagram at Mariah Stockman, or book a one-on-one biz therapy session with yours truly, and let's find that work-mama-hood harmony we all deserve. Until next time. This is your host, Mariah Stockman, and thank you so much for tuning in.